Jeffrey Glenn - An introduction to Tech Diving - S02 E15

Jeffrey is a dive industry titan specialising in all areas of technical, cave and rebreather diving. He’s logged more than 20 years experience at the pointy end of diver and instructor development, and is also the owner of GoPro Asia and Bans Technical Diving, based on Koh Tao, Thailand. 

His qualifications include multi-agency accreditations, such as a PADI Course Director and Technical Instructor Trainer, TDI/SDI Course Director, Instructor Trainer for RAID International (which is the world’s fastest growing and most dynamic dive agency), Raid Cave 2 Instructor, TDI Full Cave Instructor, and Advanced Trimix Instructor Trainer for all 3 agencies.

Jeff is also an instructor for the world’s 3 leading exploration rebreathers: the JJCCR, the XCCR and the SF2.  He’s certified well over 1000 divers in technical, rebreather and cave diving as well as countless technical diving instructors at all levels of their diver training.

Jeff is a member of international dive teams assembled for scientific research and exploration objectives.  Two of these currently include Major Projects Foundations led by Dr Matt Carter as well as Bottomline Projects, led by close friend and trusted dive buddy, Mikko Paasi.

Transcript

Matt Waters: 0:00

Hey, they dive buddies and welcome to the show. So one of the topics within Scuba diving that I want to get into is technical diving. Now, I've done a lot of diving myself recreational played around with a few of the tech toys but never really delved into it in any depth. So, rather than me jabbering on I thought it would be a good idea to bring on a geezer that knows as much as you need to know about tech diving really. And he can talk us through why people get interested in tech diving. His name is Jeffrey Glen. Jeff, welcome to the show, buddy. How you doing mate?

Jeffrey Glenn: 0:39

Thanks, Matt. Thanks for having me on Scuba. It's nice to see you. Nice to talk with you.

Matt Waters: 0:44

It's been a while it's been a while too long. And how's the how's the surf this morning?

Jeffrey Glenn: 0:50

It's pretty ordinary Bali and wake up call check the surf report. Poor sleeping was head it was enjoyable.

Matt Waters: 1:02

Before we get into any depth Do you want to give the guys that are listening background on your shelf? And you know, how you got into the diving industry and where it's evolved to.

Jeffrey Glenn: 1:11

Okay, yeah, sure, no problem. So Matt. So I started with my open water course in in Airlie Beach close to 30 years ago. So I've been in a dive industry for some time, heading out to the Great Barrier Reef and joined diving as much as I did, I proceeded and moved through the ranks and became a divemaster up there. Enjoyed that travelled the world a little bit, ended up in Egypt, on a liveaboard to Tony Becker's ever go foot in England. And I've just done a live report on the Angelina and I met this guy on the pier, he had a kotel shirt on and I asked him about it. And he told me about it, cool, put that in the memory bank and then went back to the UK worked a little bit more. And then when I decided to go on to become an instructor, I remember that T shirt. So Google Kotel and off I went did my instructor course. And that was in 22,000 2000, march 2000, I went out to Kotagiri my instructor course, the idea the plan was to do my instructor course and then move through to Central America where I could combine my love of surfing and diving and work away in the tropics, but ended up staying on Koh Tao proceeded, proceeded to teach open water courses advanced courses rescue now for a good couple of years, then became a little bored with it so proceeded to become a Odyssey staff instructor and get myself involved with instructor development courses with a couple of the leading cause structures at the time their master Walker and and Jonah Samuelson proceeded to do that. Then went to Kota Kinabalu in Borneo did my city course cdtc with a friend of ours, Guillaume fogless, who's now working for Patty in America, procedure to that for a couple of years instructor development than doubled in the technical diving. Were absolutely fell in love with the challenges and the excitement, that technical diving brought to me. And then just focus on that for the last basically 10 to 15 years.

Matt Waters: 3:36

So yeah, with little island for quite some

Jeffrey Glenn: 3:39

time, quite some time. And the beauty of technical diving is that yeah, you're continually learning. I felt with the recreational sphere, you sort of get to a certain level and the progression just basically stops, there's not too much more you can do in the recreation around that with technical diving, it's it's continually evolving, the technology is continually developing the toys, continually improving, and becoming more enjoyable to use. And so allowing the exploration scope to widen so there's always something to do.

Matt Waters: 4:19

So what was it that actually was it the boredom of of recreational, repetitive instruction? Or was it the attraction of more exploration within within tech diving? I'm trying to just decipher what it is that draws people to technical diving.

Jeffrey Glenn: 4:37

Okay, I think you've you've summed it up nicely there mate. For me personally. It was just the the boredom, the repetition, the mediocrity of just doing the same thing on our DCS, ticking, ticking the boxes on the evaluation cards and and I just felt that I was just there Is this is this is this, there's going to be more to it. And at the same time, I started to develop my technical skills. And that was allowing me to go a little bit further in the overhead environments go a little bit deeper in the racks. And I always came back from a day of technical diving, fully pumped for more. Whereas I can compare that to a day of it sees I was like I'm a guy that continually likes to develop and progress and evolve as, as a human as a diver and technical diving enabled me to do that become better. Because I was challenging myself, I didn't really feel jet challenged up to an RDC it was the same as demo. Repetition. So yeah, to summarise that, Matt. Yeah, it was a repetition. That sort of bored me or the season recreational, whereas the excitement of being able to push my limits further and technical diving is which watch led me to transition fully into technical diver development. Technical exploration.

Matt Waters: 6:10

Yeah, yeah. Now the the amount of people that you taught dive in, and you know, people could account search and all that kind of thing. You've done a few now.

Jeffrey Glenn: 6:23

Yeah, he could say that. You can say that. Yeah, I've probably done more technical diver certs than I have recreational certs. Keep in mind when I was working as a recreational instructor, I was representing probably the biggest Scuba diving school on the planet teaching Apex advanced bands. I've been rezoned Kotel, you know, you're doing maximum ratio of eight students to one instructor, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year. So to say that I've got just as many technical services recreational is giving you an idea of the broad range of students that I've taught. That's, that's gone from entry level, technical, which is a soft tech into the high tech, which is the overhead and the rebreathers. So you've done done a few

Matt Waters: 7:12

of those. And that was a beautiful lead in there. I'll drop you your fiver later. Can you let's let's talk through the way people get into tech diver because I was actually chatting with it with a message this morning about it. And I asked her as a recreational diver non technical non non pro, you know, what do you know about tech diving? And it's it's as though there's a kind of mysterious shroud and you know, those in the recreational that slap a tank on every weekend, I don't really know that much about it without delving into the weeds. So if you don't mind, can we delve into the weeds of how people would start to get into tech? And why?

Jeffrey Glenn: 7:55

It starts with a conversation with people that do do tech. There is a dark cloud hanging over tech at the entry level. People see that and they go, Oh, I can't do that. Because I think it's a mindset thing they look at it are too complicated, too challenging. We're in fact, the training isn't as complicated and challenging. As it seems, yes, it is more complex, you do have to focus more is a paradigm shift where you have to turn into a thinking diver, a proactive diver, as a record as a recreational diver you're you're more reactive diver. people thrive on that because they do put their focus more under pre empting situations and being prepared for them as opposed to reacting to it. So I think for me on Kotel, when I started my technical development was seeing people on dive sites with a with a set of doubles on their back or was sidemount. And like anything, people are curious, they want to know about it. Then on the boat, during the surface interval or after the dive, you'll see the recreational divers on the boat looking at you, you know, they want to ask questions. If they're confident they'll come and ask you. What are you doing? How do I start that? And they're usually the ones that go Yeah, I want to give it a go. So they come in an hour introduce themselves, and they sign up for the course. And that beautiful journey of technical diving begins for them. So that's how I found from what I experienced at most people start the technical. You would have seen like Andy Campbell on the boat or big blue with his twin set on or his side mount and you would have seen new dmts Looking at them going Oh what are you up to? I think also the rise of social media and seeing the photos of yourself and you know Pete Maszlee doing these photos and Thompson George photos. Well, this is epic images. Have divers in caves? Like I know Mick has done some wonderful photos of me on the wrecks of Malta. People see those images and they go oh, I want to be that guy. Because I remember when I started I wanted to get that selfie Amina tune set. So I thought the only way you're gonna get that cool photo, Amina twinset is if I do the course. So now it's also a little bit ego at play that you want to look cool on social media and that. So, but going back to your original question, I think it's more just exposure when people see it. It ignites that curiosity. So people ask about it. And that's how they start.

Matt Waters: 10:40

Yeah, yeah. There's a there's actually just you saying about the selfie or the photo? There's one that Miko took and it just springs to mind instantly. When you talk about it, and it's I think it's the only fact I've seen of you with a big ear to ear smile underwater.

Jeffrey Glenn: 10:55

Is that the one on the one? I'm on the shortline? Yeah, yeah.

Matt Waters: 10:59

Actually, if we go on YouTube, I'll put it here somewhere. Okay.

Jeffrey Glenn: 11:04

That one that was a wreck that we did on the HMS Olympus in Malta. Malta Historical Society had literally just opened up that rec to be digestible by civilians, and due to Mikos infamy on the Thai cave rescue, he was given the privilege of being one of the first teams to go down on the Olympus. It was British submarine at 120 metres in Malta, so they were just coming up from magnificent dive on on that. It was funny mica was just playing around with his camera and just coincidentally, I was just sitting above him watching him swear at me and finish Yeah, it took that photo and that's actually one of my favourite photos on myself. Yeah.

Matt Waters: 11:53

Yeah, it's a fantastic shot. Nice Well, Miko something that they'll finish he's just called he just got back to the

Jeffrey Glenn: 12:06

island that certainly certainly as we've made, yeah, it costs him a small fortune to get there with all the restrictions in place. But yeah, he's back on kotel teaching teaching courses again. I was just

Matt Waters: 12:16

hoping to hoping to put a visit in probably May time next year

Jeffrey Glenn: 12:20

Oh yeah. I'm looking at going back around the same time might June June July only to start the business interests again. There

Matt Waters: 12:27

could be quite quite

Jeffrey Glenn: 12:31

our borders are open very

Matt Waters: 12:36

well, yeah, if you're gonna do June July, I'll make sure I don't know that. Oliver's it

Jeffrey Glenn: 12:42

might be hard to believe that even on a good boy these days, night, choppers retired.

Matt Waters: 12:50

We might introduce chopper later to Oh. Okay. Anyway, back to training. So those people that, you know, they've approached you, and they decide to come and have the chat and get into the tech side of things. What's, what's the overall benefits for those people that are going to start taking that first step? Yeah, good

Jeffrey Glenn: 13:12

question. Good question. The benefits of technical diving. I think that's the knowledge first and foremost, it's some knowledge that I pick up. Okay, in recreational diving, you don't, you don't really drill deep into what diving is about the psychological and physiological effects of diving in, in the technical introductory courses, you touch on that what is actually the gas doing to your body? How's it affecting? How do we eliminate that gas so you don't you delve deeper into into the knowledge base of actual diving to actually know what the gases that you're breathing, or doing as you're as you're coming up, so then when you apply that knowledge, you have a greater understanding of why we do it. Okay, and recreation of fine, this is what you do you do it. But in technical, we go into deeper detail. So you have a more intimate understanding of why we do the things that we actually do. So in essence, you become a safer diver.

Matt Waters: 14:17

Yes, and that's another point I wanted to raise actually. I think a lot of people will look at it and think that it's more dangerous. Getting into the technical realm. They think

Jeffrey Glenn: 14:27

that once they understand and have a deeper, deeper into minute into into intermittent knowledge of, of the diving, they become a safer diver. I feel much safer at 18 metres with a double set of doubles on my back was sidemount than I would in a recreational setup. Yeah. Okay. And unfortunately, you know, you're pushed to the recreational you're you tick the box, you move on to the next course, or in technical you need to show a mastery at that level. Right before the instructor will allow you to go to that next level. Okay, which is completely different to the way the recreational realm is set up. So the understanding of what's actually happening and occurring on that dive, the planning involved with that. And then the execution of that dive, gives you more confidence as a diver gives you a more intimate knowledge as a diver. And the end result is you're a safer diver. Like I know if I'm at 80 metres with a twin seven if something goes wrong. So, okay, just turn my valve off, switch to my short hose. Okay. And then in the dive, where as you see, recreational diver, that catastrophic gas loss

Unknown: 15:47

on that single tank, it's like, ah, and you shoot up to the surface.

Jeffrey Glenn: 15:53

Yeah, right. So if I have a twin cinema back, and I know how to operate that due to mastery of the skill of closing the valve down switch into my short house, signalling to my buddy that I have an issue, then I can just safely make up my way up to the surface knowing I've still got all my gas on my back. So just going through that challenging aspect of learning how to do that you will arrive at as a sales as a cypher diver and that's introduced you at the introductory courses. The very first course you'll go through those processes.

Matt Waters: 16:27

And you want to break down the introductory course

Jeffrey Glenn: 16:31

mostly of the agencies do an introductory course that I teach with TDI with raid and with Paddy. It's all caught so called different Lee the courses that you do, but basically the introductory courses is introduction to how a twinset works, the mechanisms of the twinset how the valve works. Okay, so you have a father on one side, okay, you can just close it, you can isolate it, okay. And then you have access to both cylinders, okay, manipulation of the long hose in the short house, gas sharing. But I think what, what I do then most importantly, on the introductory courses is the control in the water column. Okay, understanding buoyancy control, understanding the six propulsion techniques to be able to maintain your your control in the water column, which I think is the most beneficial for introductory, or a technical diver moving forward, having that control under the water. Because you'll see, you'll see a lot of recreation divers swimming like this, or you see a well trained technical diver will will have control, you know, being trim and be able to execute the dive in control will be able to ascend from the diamond control, and be able to address any problems that they have in the water, but still maintain control. And then again, makes it safe. If you're having a gas sauce, or you're having a problem on the water, and you do not have control, you're either sinking greater than your depth or your pH on your gas or you're ascending losing control on your ascent because on the overinflating link, whereas if you have that control and can and manage your buoyancy, while dealing with the multitude of issues that you might have to deal with, so that control again, you're safe. Yeah. And that's what it comes down to safety.

Matt Waters: 18:32

So I'm just picking up on something you said a few minutes ago. Recreate recreational is ticking boxes, as long as you can do the skills and you're competent, you're meant to be it's meant to be mastery. Mastery is a it's I think it's a looser, it's a very short, because it is my idea

Jeffrey Glenn: 18:54

of mastery would be completely different to a recreational divers mastery. Definition. That's

Matt Waters: 18:59

the point. That's the that's leading me to the next question is that if you have a customer that you're teaching, and they tick the boxes, per se, but you're still uncomfortable with that individual and signing them off, can you not? Can you hold off of signing them off through your own experience and thoughts on on how they are in the water?

Jeffrey Glenn: 19:21

Yes in in technical diving. And I believe it should be the same in recreational. But in technical diving, we do you have the luxury of not certifying the diver if they do not meet the requirements required. So I have had divers who haven't met the performance requirements to my satisfaction that even though I've had interns with me, I've asked them the question, How did you think they went either went well, and I'm like, I'm sorry, I would disagree with you there. This diver We'll have to spend another another day with me in the water. And that days will be continuous until they meet the requirements. And I find most technical divers or most students who are moving into the technical realm are quite comfortable with that if they need more training. I'm usually brutally honest with them. You haven't met requirements as yet. I would like you to have another day, Jeff, and I promise this because they want to be better. Yeah.

Matt Waters: 20:30

And let's face it, I mean, the worst thing that comes out of it as you get an extra day a diving

Jeffrey Glenn: 20:36

and usually met, that's all they need. Hey, yeah. Because what happens on those on that final day, that evaluation day? This gets away on them. Yeah. And they overcomplicate it, they overanalyze it, and they get anxious. And it's usually up here. That fear up here that that usually leads to them not having the day they wish for. So once they get through that day, the next day is usually a little bit better because they they've gotten through the previous day. It hasn't worked for them. They know what's expected of them. Okay, and they usually meet it with foreign colours right the next day. Yeah. It's just that time in the water.

Matt Waters: 21:18

It is it's an experience, isn't it? You're getting relaxed with it.

Jeffrey Glenn: 21:21

It is. It is and as you know, from the recreational some of in kotel made that you're, you've got time pressure on you. Right, people come in on the holiday with a backpack on they got three and a half days into their f1 watercourse, you know, deep down that maybe they haven't met their requirements, that because he got pressure from the from the dye shop from the shoot it, you tick that box and you move them on?

Matt Waters: 21:48

Yeah, yeah.

Jeffrey Glenn: 21:51

Those students who then come on to the technical training, you really got to let them know that it's, it's not a time based it's performance based evaluation criteria. And if they haven't met the requirements, they will need to have another day with me another two days.

Matt Waters: 22:09

And I think it's fair to say as well, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think from what I've seen over the years, and you know, watching the likes of Richard Divini teaching, it's a much more intimate teaching style at smaller groups. And, you know, well away from the madding crowd and more focused as, as you will expect. More Yeah, it is, it appears more intimate, more, more controlled.

Jeffrey Glenn: 22:34

It is it's as a as an instructor, you know, who teaches courses, who teaches, you know, advanced tronics rebreather courses, you are very intimate with your student, you're at 100 metres, you're, you're on top of them, you're pretty much writing them. You're there, you're watching everything that they do. You're You're delving deep into their soul. They're at 100 metres, something goes wrong, you're like, as close to this monitor, as we are now to their eyes, you're, you're seeing what they're thinking in their eyes. So after you've both gone through that experience together, you're you're quite intimate, and it's actually forms really strong friendships. With insurance, you know, you're not the why, why is it that when I'm teaching my students, I'm not just teaching insurance, I'm teaching future dive buddies for myself. Because I'm, I'm teaching them utilising every resource that I've got with the hope that they'll come and join me on my expeditions and my exploration projects later, because the more on my mindset I can die with. Here I am. The more people that I can get into technical diving, and show them what I'm fortunate enough to see, you know, and what technical diving has given me the opportunity to see the more people that can see that the more love tech technical diving, there'll be out there. Yeah, it's quite intimate. It is quite intimate. It's one on one and it's a it's a complete paradigm shift from recreation with technical. You know, it's such a such a higher level of skill that's required to be a competent diver.

Matt Waters: 24:14

Yeah, you know, and that's, and that's not saying, you know, people who are listening to this now, it's not a it's not a scary level. I mean, you're taken from point A, as a recreational diver to point B as a new technical diver, and your your puppy walked all the way epsilon so that they've got that that surely and that comfort.

Jeffrey Glenn: 24:37

Yeah, absolutely. It's a step by step progress. You know, it's like, the Japanese business will also the Kaizen the Kaizen way to build by Robert Moore and something I apply with a lot of my different aspects of life, just baby steps, achievable steps. So, then you arrive at the big picture with that foundation there. You know, so it is a step by step progress. You know, if, if day two of the technical diving course, is unsuccessful, then we do day two again. Yeah. And the second day of day two is unsuccessful, then we do day two again, before we go to day three, and so on. So by the time they get to that safe 45 metre certification point, they're competent. Right? And the only time I signed them off is like, Am I comfortable? With this person? By themselves at 45 metres? Yes, I am done, you certified. And it is a step by step progress. And it's a great journey. It's a rewarding journey. Because there's gonna be times where you're like, What am I doing? Usually by the end of it when you get to experience that record 45 metres for 25 minutes and you've taken some Instagram shots in our daughter and you've come up and you've just done a dive which you've doubted yourself on and you've come up just buzzing that confidence level of the dive, which is gone sky high. That yeah, it is a step by step walk, walk with baby step progress through to that point.

Matt Waters: 26:09

And that so that first the introduction to tech, that's going to be doubles whose doubles the, the start of everything.

Jeffrey Glenn: 26:20

My my look on is that I prefer to start with doubles, because because that's how technical diving started. Okay, all right. I know there's a lot of energy these days for sidemount. So yes, you can do that introductory on sidemount. But I prefer to do it on twin sets on doubles. Okay,

Matt Waters: 26:43

so because what I'm what I'm angling at is, you know, just thinking back to that discussion with the missus this morning that that, that dark cover unless you delve into, you know, a particular instructor when you're searching out to do tech dive and you don't really know the route through the ranking structure as it were the development structure. So you know, I picked up on the the twin sets that you're talking about on the doubles, but sidemount so it can be an it can be an option that the student wants to follow? Or is it a preference from the instructor side of the house,

Jeffrey Glenn: 27:18

a assignment instructor will always push aside now. Older school, chiselled salty sea dog might go a set of doubles. But for me, a well rounded technical instructor needs to be proficient in both sidemount or Batman and switch seamlessly between the two. So if your lovely lady came up and said, Jeff, I want to start my technical diving route. I'd be comfortable saying which tool would you prefer to use first, side mount or back mount. The reason I like to do the back mount is anything really beyond the 50 metre mark sidemount becomes a little bit more of a challenge because of the singular tanks. Yeah, with all your gas on the back, it allows a little bit more freedom at the front is one gun to 5060 metres plus, I got five cylinders at the front of me on site about so it becomes a little bit more challenging. So when people come to me and ask they want to do tech, I say what's your end goal? Is it caves? Is it 100 metres? Is it? Is it this or is it that and using that information that they've answered that question on then I'd say okay, this is what we're going to do. This is what I recommend that we do. Okay?

Matt Waters: 28:41

So the route through to the end goal can be structured bespoke almost,

Jeffrey Glenn: 28:49

pretty much, pretty much and how I used to structure things on Kotel was they would come to me I'll do an introduction. I will do technical days with my dmts just take all the all the toys up to the swimming pool, and then it gives them an opportunity to play with the sidemount play with the doubles and play with my reboot this that I found that I probably 70% of the students that wanted to start their technical would like to do sitemap first. So if they come into me to do the entry level of tech than the 45 metre tech and then the extended range Tech, we will do the sidemount through the 45 metres okay where I have my son about cylinders plus one decompression cylinder and then I would veer over and do my extended range training on on a set of doubles. Set of doubles with with the 50% engine and yeah 100% And now they've just done the entry level basic tech to 55 metres, which is the extended range and now they're comfortable on both side mount and back mount. Now they've got that practical experience to draw from, they can then decide which route they want to specialise in, or their future training. Yeah. So give them the opportunity to do both. Yeah.

Matt Waters: 30:13

So you got your, your students, you know, they've got their 55 ticket was an extended range and

Jeffrey Glenn: 30:21

yeah, I use the extended range. With TDI, it's extended range with, with raid, it's the rage 60 programme. And with Patti, it's the tech 50 programme.

Matt Waters: 30:35

Now, a lot of people that in the recreational side of the house, one of the one of the most common things I hear when, you know, tech diving comes up. Is that the phrase of why go so deep? What's the point? What is the point

Jeffrey Glenn: 30:52

exploration? Curiosity? scientific reasons.

Matt Waters: 31:00

Okay, I've been involved at a few of the scientific things now. Yeah, a few of

Jeffrey Glenn: 31:03

them. The plan was pre COVID was to get more involved with major project Foundation, mathematic. Cardos gonna be one of the divers with Matt. In fact, we just finished Matt's cross over onto the JJ he did his course with me down at kills we sinkhole and Gambia just recently with the objective to utilise the JJ for some of the scientific projects that he had in Trump lagoon bikini on the rec set. Yeah, so a lot of the reasons people want to go deeper is it's for that very purpose is some cool stuff down BP, it's you'll find that a lot a lot of there's a lot of wrecks between the 60 to 40 metre range that you just can't access as a recreational diver. Some of the sinkholes around the world go a little bit deeper, so you can't push the exploration and bypass those deeper sections. You need to be trained in decompression procedures to be able to access those passages to continue the exploration and also other scientific projects on the marine life and the reef ecosystem. That for example, Mark was doing in in Indonesia, some of the scientific projects he was doing in the 80 to 100 metre range on the reefs into the back of the north there. So there's a lot of projects and a lot of scientific research and a lot of exploration out there on those deeper areas. So having the skills necessary to access that part safely. is obviously why people move into technical diving.

Matt Waters: 32:57

So let's touch back on safety as well. I make no bones about it. I think there's a lot of recreational divers out there that become blase and overconfident when they dive in particularly shore dives because it's just shallow and I see far too many people that just go solo diving that haven't got any backup supplies there's no buddies no not no assistance at all. I think it's bloody ridiculous but I do want to touch on raid and the tuition and rec recreational raid. I I am impressed with the way that the recreational road system works when it's taught properly. Again, it all comes down to the instructors that are available to provide it but I also think it gives a good lead into the technical aspect because it is tech minded Are you allowed to agree disagree without without pissing off Paddy and TDI?

Jeffrey Glenn: 33:59

My my thoughts is this when I enter a course and teach, there's great things that party do. There's great things that TDI do there's great things that Ray do there's great things that gee we do so I'm having an intimate knowledge of each of the different agencies systems are utilised all those tools and present them to my divers right. So at this point in time I'm not single agency affiliated but I'll use all of them. I'm in it for Patti right and TDI and they all have great systems that are utilise

Matt Waters: 34:33

till you can to make up pick the exactly suffer exactly to

Jeffrey Glenn: 34:36

make the effort and make my students the best they can be at that level of certification. So I like the RAID system because it borrows heavily from the technical realm. Okay with foundational skills, holding holding the position in the water column while dealing With a basic skill of moss removal and replacement, they can do that while holding neutral buoyancy. I'll get back to my days as a recreational instructor going back 20 years. On dive three of the open water course mat, we would swim around twins, it's time for them to remove their mask, we would go and find a nice sandy spot would all go and kneel down on the sand, hold each other's hand keep the group tight, and one by one would go to them and get them to remove the mask. Does that sound familiar? Met?

Matt Waters: 35:35

Hang on. Okay.

Jeffrey Glenn: 35:37

So my issue with doing it that way is that once that diver is certified, they're going to jump on pinnacle for a fungi, they're 18 metres, and their mask gets watery. They need to take it off, what is their default setting then go and find a sandy spot to kneel down to remove and replace the mask. There's no sandy spot at shump on Pinnacle at 80 metres, the nearest sandy spot is 30 Is that safe? So what Ray does is spent more time in the confined mastering the ability to maintain your integrity in midwater, while doing a very basic skill of mass removal and replacement. They do that in confined they're not doing to our confined sessions to conflict. They're getting the student to master that. So that means three hour four hour five hour confined session. If not all day confined sessions. It makes Di Di wanted to dive three and four. So much easier for the student and the instructor because they've been developed with a technical mindset that they can hold that position. Yeah, right. So when they do submit eight Emmys at some point all masters got some modern on edge removal and replacement. They have the confidence in their ability to stay in that position and do that skill without jeopardising the safety. And that's why I think RAID is a is predominantly leaving the quality of training with with some of the agents that OTT is doing it. Now, some of the guys that Patti are following suit as well, because they're just seeing that it can be done. It just means the instructor needs to spend a little bit more quality time with the students in the confined water training, that means minimising the ratios. So instead of teaching eight to one like I did for so many years, minimise that to four to one. So then you can have that intimate relationship that we discussed previously that a technical diver has had that with the recreational diver, why not? Let's teach four to one concentrate more on those fundamentals or those foundational skills and they're going to be a better safer diver.

Matt Waters: 38:00

Was that your phone?

Jeffrey Glenn: 38:02

Yeah, I'll turn it off. Sorry, brother.

Matt Waters: 38:04

That's a case of beer you

Jeffrey Glenn: 38:09

so every time the bell rings, I need to give you a case of beer.

Matt Waters: 38:14

Shoppers bar is going to be few days. So what's what's what's next, after the 55 You know, if someone's got out the confidence about the skills, what are they going to start looking towards

Jeffrey Glenn: 38:36

you find a lot of divers may not want to go any further. Okay, they've got the necessary skills, whether it be side mount or set of doubles to stay in that 40 to 60 metre range. I mean that that's a magnificent depth 40 to 60 metres you get to see so much more opens up more more doorways to more adventure for you that you know if you do wish to go on then then we usually have a quite detailed discussion whether it wants to be open circuit or remain an open circuit or we transition into rebreather right. So beyond the the extended range, which is the you know, the 40 to 60 metre depth, that discussion so there needs to be needs to be prominent in the thought process because there's a big difference right. Moving on to the open circuit. You have the skills in place already to easy execute 100 metre, again, it's baby steps 200 metres. There's a lot of training dives and execution of training dogs before we hit that magical 100 metre mark. That then if we decide to transition to rebreathers it's a complete paradigm shift. You Whoever you are, you have to accept that you're basically going back to square one. And restart your training again. So if someone comes to me, they're certified to the extended range of 40 to 60 metres, and they want to progress. Then I'll sit down and say, right, these are the these are the options, we can say on open circuit. Or we can prep progress into rebreathers.

Matt Waters: 40:27

Now, on the rebreather, front, let's start talking rebreathers are pretty damn sexy. And, yeah, we're now getting into the expensive realms. There's a lot of advantages now. The to get onto a rebreather to learn how to use a rebreather. Do they have to go through all of the precursors, the intro to tech that doubles the size of out all that kind of? Or is there a direct route? To rebreathers?

Jeffrey Glenn: 40:58

Good question, Matt. Good question. This is an ongoing debate amongst agencies amongst instructors from different agencies. Yes, there is a direct route. Yes, you can go straight onto what they call a recreational rebreather and start your entry into tech using a rebreather. Or you can go the open circuit route to extended range and then progress over. Okay. Depending on the instructor, okay, some instructors, it may be financially advantageous to them to suggest the rebreather early on, because they may have a student who wishes to buy the rebreather straight away. All right, they may be an instructor who would rather just to conflict, get them through, get them through the door. Okay. But then you may have instructors who wish for the student that have the fundamental skills in place. Understand what potency is understanding what the gas is doing to see that student has a it's developed that situational awareness and is comfortable at those depths before over tasking them with the intricacies of the rebreather at those depths. So coming from, from my experience, when I'm having these discussions with my students, and they wish to proceed under rebreathers, I always get them to go to extended range level on open circuit. Because once they're comfortable at 50 metres on a twin set, and then nailing and executing every single dive and they're relaxed, and they're coming up and they're just buzzing, then I say you're ready to move on to rebreathers. If if there are 50 and they're all over the place that buoyancy is not in point they're not. They're not having good team communication, their awareness is is minimal. That I'm gonna do there's no way that I will allow you to go to 50 minutes on a river either. Yeah, because it's just a whole nother level.

Matt Waters: 43:10

Is that one of the dangers as to you know, if someone's certified to 50 open circuit. When we go over to rebreather, is it does the the debts qualification debts reset? Or are they automatically allowed to use a rebreather down of 50.

Jeffrey Glenn: 43:30

So though, they will need to go through the steps on the rebreather, so if they're, for example, a Arade 60. diver, then they would need to start as a rebreather 40 diver first and get the hours up before they can then move on to the next programme. So it's not like a like for like certification.

Matt Waters: 43:54

Good, good. I'm just trying to draw out all of the thoughts that go through my head and probably someone like the message

Jeffrey Glenn: 44:03

as well. So for me, for me going through the processes of the open circuit journey. You've you mastered the point C, and then understanding the trim the propulsion techniques, and the awareness of what's going on around you. Okay, so those skills are sort of squared away, and you've got them in your pocket already. You then transition onto a rebreather. The initial course the entry level rebreather course is all about the unit. Understanding the intricacies and and the intimate details of how the actual machine works. Okay, knowing that you have the foundational skills already. Okay, I'm not teaching you a rebreather and buoyancy rebreather, and how to do a back kick or a helicopter turn. Because you have that already. I'm just focusing on the rebreather. then knowing that you have those skills already those foundational skills in your pocket already, and when you can just pull them out.

Matt Waters: 45:08

Yeah. And this is where you've got particular qualifications for a particular rebreather, because they've all got their own systems.

Jeffrey Glenn: 45:15

Exactly, exactly. So if you're, if you choose the JJ CCF, then we just focus solely on the JJ CCR. And then you might go through the entry level JJ course, then you go into the mix gas course. And then you go into the advanced mix gas course. And then if you wish to move over and transition on to the X CCR, you have to do a crossover programme onto the CCR. So it's like a five or six day crossover programme, understanding the intricacies of that particular unit. Because the electronic system may be different, the heads up display may be different, the way that you bail out and do a deal you won't flush may be different or will be different on each of the different rebreathers. So just because you have a rebreather certification on a particular unit doesn't mean that you can dive every single unit

Matt Waters: 46:13

suppose it's like passing the test on the mini and jumping in a Lambo.

Jeffrey Glenn: 46:16

Yeah, you need to understand how cars work exactly.

Matt Waters: 46:20

And let's, let's back it up a little bit. rebreathers people that are interested, curious, scared of what's the word let's let's have a bit of an overview on the advantages of a rebreather over an open

Jeffrey Glenn: 46:36

circuit. Okay, time, time, time time. Okay, so you have time on a unit you have the time on the unit. Usually, if something goes wrong and open circuit, you don't have much time, because you lose in your gas. Right? If something goes wrong on the unit, which is very, very rare. All you do is look at your handset. And if the gas that you're breathing is a safe gas, then you have the time to go okay, I guess I'm breathing a safe, What's my problem? Then you can analyse the steps to isolate what your problem is. Okay, diagnose that, and work out your solution. So allows you time what else you're doing. So that for me is a big thing. It's a little bit more relaxed. And then

Matt Waters: 47:29

the no bubbles thing is a bit yeah, I know sounds a little bit. But it's now it's true. If you're a true if you're into the photography, then having zero bubbles coming out, you're gonna get so much closer to the species you're trying to live a

Jeffrey Glenn: 47:44

will make some believe. I remember when I started my journey on the rebreather, and I was getting up my hours. And I was on Southwest and catalysis was pinnacle. And I was just off the pinnacle at 30 metres just looking at my handset just playing around and I just remember looking at once and I had the yellowtail Barracuda like you know, hundreds of them just like literally that far away from me. And I got I was a little little shot with a little girl put my hands but I was just so Oh, wow, they're so close to me. And the fact that I was just so silent I was just became one of one in their environment. So they're just gone. It was just thinking black, they just come very close to me. And if I had him on camera, then that would have been would have been also would have got some great shots. But yeah, just leading into what you said as a photographer. And you'll see some of the world's leading photographers. They also happen to be rebreather divers as well don't they? Yeah. So it's it's a it's a wonderful tool for that avenue of underwater photography. Definitely.

Matt Waters: 48:58

And you can use rebreathers to maximum depths or unlimited

Jeffrey Glenn: 49:03

unlit unlimited unlimited on recovery. This depends on your help or to your limited I mean my my brag a little bit here, but I was part of the team for will Goodman when he did 300 metres on out of the box. JJ CCR. He went to 300 overseas deep support diver. So yeah, the the depth of it on the rebreathers are unlimited, but obviously, you know, we'll have 10 years rebreather experience under his belt before he executed successfully that dive. But yeah, there is a there is it's not a depth limit on rebreathers.

Matt Waters: 49:45

I'm going to pick up on that the diver itself. At what point at what depth did he end up being on his own?

Jeffrey Glenn: 49:57

Why the why that dog went on the date mat was we, we had planned it after a month of training together for that day we went down by himself. And then when he hit his mark, he started coming up and we timed it that I then went down with Simon lydiate. So we'd meet him as he was ascending and then we were coming down so he probably spent close to 15 minutes by himself before I got ahold of you maybe 20 minutes I was waiting within 20 minutes obviously set

Matt Waters: 50:43

and I was having a quick look at some articles this morning actually, and he was saying that I was computers and whatnot just maxed out at like 250 or something

Jeffrey Glenn: 50:54

yeah to add they went out but then they came back in now to 90 So if you have a look some of the imagery from his record will record that his is handset from his JJ maxed out at 290 but once we uploaded the data the data into the shoe what a software we're able to see the the actual lines it just stopped recording on the interface, but the actual depths was recorded on the actual software. Yeah, the the one the one that actually worked was his $100 Scuba pro depth bottom of depth timer so that was still working for him. It was able to make sure that that's using using that tool.

Matt Waters: 51:45

Brilliant. You are Shearwater diver yourself

Jeffrey Glenn: 51:49

see anyone I rarely use my I am I started using OSTC computers initially but first one failed second one failed third one as soldered on. And at this time she was just getting a little bit energy about the summer initial she would have purchased as one of those big bulky petrels that obviously they streamline them down to what you see today but yeah, are you she What is she what a Perdix is my go to open circuit computer and also on my JJ on my SCCR and on my SF two rebreathers a Shearwater petrol twos it's it's pretty much the only computer that I would recommend or you recommend them I recommend them due to the fact that they've always worked for me 20 years of technical diving they've never let me down so that's why I recommend them there's other good computers out there but for me it's it's only ever going to issue what

Matt Waters: 52:57

I did I did the jump over in fact the logo on the on the podcast cover is the Tarik oh look at you

Jeffrey Glenn: 53:10

issuing a brace and seeking Vichy water model my friend

Matt Waters: 53:15

Yeah, this old guy needs a sponsorship

Jeffrey Glenn: 53:21

what must you have on there?

Matt Waters: 53:23

Oh that's that's an aqualen ego and me Jeff this is obviously I made them made the mistake last weekend we went camping I'll put I'll put the beach just an hour and a half north of here and lovely weekend. But I took me took me jet fins with me in the boats just that I took out onto the onto the shoreline there because I've just got upgraded my camera gear and the Ikelite and the eight inch dome port and I thought I'll give it a go on some half and half shots. We'll check the water conditions First I got him with the the jet fins on Have you ever tried snorkelling with jet fins doesn't work my mate I might as well just go and do 10 squats in the gym with 100 kilos on your back

Jeffrey Glenn: 54:07

on your feet underwater might were not very effective on the surface.

Matt Waters: 54:14

Oh no. Yeah, well, I'm leaving here today and I'm heading down to a drain I'm just gonna pick up some I don't actually move Auntie Quattros or something for the for the snorkelling next time we go camping

Jeffrey Glenn: 54:24

and I severity Quattros there. That's one of the Morris fins that I would recommend for tech. Yeah. Good night.

Matt Waters: 54:33

I was just I was teaching them all the time before I got these ones.

Jeffrey Glenn: 54:36

So I had a bright yellow pair of any contracts. Then I moved over to the RMS things but yeah, the Jets fans made they they were like that was sort of life changing for me once we got into the tech. It's so important to have an effective thin because you propulsion is can either make or break a knife. Yeah, definitely potion techniques and making sure you have the right means to get the propulsion that you need, whether it be a delicate back kick, or you know, a powerful frog kick, you know, you need good fins. So yeah, it doesn't happen at the surface.

Matt Waters: 55:14

At the surface, you're just an elephant with

Jeffrey Glenn: 55:22

she was speedos on.

Matt Waters: 55:24

Oh, yeah. Let's get back into the tech side of things. What's just picking up you're saying that you're gonna be heading back out to Thailand, hopefully next year? What's the what's the plans? You're going to you're going to get back out to teaching?

Jeffrey Glenn: 55:40

Ah, yeah, I'm sort of 5050 on that at the moment. I think I think what I what I have to do is commit to the projects that we had planned, pre COVID. One of those projects with was with Miko with our NGO bottom line projects. And because later off, we will be photogrammetry in the, the USS was about the overhang on the garden. So if they'd have that bit out there, we'll be doing some survey work for the US Department of Defence for the USS legato. Last April was the 75th anniversary of it sinking. Where is that one legato? It's in the Gulf of Thailand, just off Malaysia. So it's a submarine USS like other submarine that was sunk in the war during World War Two bond by the Japanese.

Matt Waters: 56:51

Just watching you're tapping on the dash there, Jeff is picking up on your mic. So you live in a Steve vessel. He was doing the same last two

Jeffrey Glenn: 56:57

days. But so. So a couple of the Kotel boys found that funny enough they got in touch with the powers that be in the US and they were like snow, a couple of the boys from Kotel was found that wreck that we've been looking for for 50 is so they went back out, dropped down, grabbed the belt, took the photos, and sent it back to him gone, we found a boy with within a day, they sent out a ship from one of their, one of the naval bases in Singapore, and met them on site. They sent their divers down to confirm the fight. And okay, we found it. This is the one so it actually gave a lot of closure to the families of the sailors that are on that wreck. So last April was the 75th anniversary of the sinking of that. So we had given given the rights and the authority to do some photogrammetry on the wreck and also put a plaque in memory of the gentleman that found it and also put up the American flag back on to the bow. So I think because of COVID that obviously was put on pause so there was been remnants or Miko, Eric, Eric Brown and myself that we're going to be the divers on that project with a with some support from like Prince, he has them and Timmy Lawrence and that sort of thing. So I think we're gonna go and do that. Also got a couple of projects to do in Croatia and Italy, with Patrick Whitman, and some of the boys that are based over there. And maybe even head back to Mexico as well for a little bit a little bit on the case. Right before I think about settling somewhere in teaching for a while, even though it'd be teaching in those those areas. I think I just need to get my diver mojo back on the NAS. Got some

Matt Waters: 58:58

fantastic shots in in the sonotubes until I'm done.

Jeffrey Glenn: 59:03

Yeah, unfortunately, those are some really cool people over there. Gotta got a lot of might say that, that are currently diving every day putting up photos on social media. Joe makes him extremely jealous and envious, that we're in Alcatraz and can't go anywhere. That yeah, I'll be heading back there's a lot of good people over there in Mexico a lot of good people there in Europe that that attacked I was in the beauty of the technical community that it's it's very welcoming and very small that you get to know a lot of people very quickly. And it's it's a wonderful opportunity and lifestyle. And being a technical divers, you know, opened up so many different doorways throughout the world of different places that you can dive where you get to meet all these really cool interesting people as well. So yeah, I think

Matt Waters: 59:50

we stayed. We did was just before the year before COVID message did five weeks through Galapagus and backup Claire and yeah,

Jeffrey Glenn: 1:00:01

they're ex military as well met. So yeah, connection there is. I remember you. You sent me a Facebook message. You sent me a little video of yourself. I just wrote rubbing it in while I was on the beach. Now I remember that Yeah, yeah, it's amazing place over there. Amazing. Yeah.

Matt Waters: 1:00:23

I mean, we were only there for what, three or four days. But it was certainly interesting. For me being, you know, photo geek, I was more interested in the entry and exit points, because there was lights. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But the pit was just simply fantastic.

Jeffrey Glenn: 1:00:40

How good are those photos of people in those light race? Just looking back here?

Matt Waters: 1:00:46

Well, those those ones that was talking about the ones that you're in, you've got the salad tights and the style of mites. And, you know, you've clearly the team have put their strobes in place so that they flash off at the right time. But they're just, they're awesome.

Jeffrey Glenn: 1:01:02

Yeah, that's right. The divers, the divers said, I'm with you know, SJ Bennett. Thompson George.

Matt Waters: 1:01:12

I'm not in I don't know that.

Jeffrey Glenn: 1:01:14

Yeah, they're on social media, they have fantastic photos, you know, a lot of them use video lights, actually, they don't use the stripes, because they know the passages they're swimming through from previous previous dives. So they're quite intimate with those those areas. So then they pause the model, they set up the video lights where they need to, and then they get the model to swim through that section. Yeah, so they're very, very intimate with those areas. So it's, you know, very safe and know exactly, you know, the compass bearing of the cave, the where the lines running. So the very safe there. So

Matt Waters: 1:01:55

speaking of safety and cave tours, we're touching on caves. And harping back to talking about the intimacy of training. I think Lani and Claire have their setup is good as a good example of what I'm trying to explain there because it's away from the madding crowd, it's, it's, it's focused, because you're in your own compound. And, you know, all that training can occur without distraction. And I think that's what you need for for that kind of adventure. You know, once you're going into an overhead environment, it's got to be completely focused, doesn't it?

Jeffrey Glenn: 1:02:33

Right? It is focused training, because you need that focused execution to be seamless. So it is very, you know, maximum groups three, because that's the ideal team size in a cave. So no more than three instructors always hovering metres away from the diver. In well travelled caves. So the cave instructor has their set caves that they go to, for each of the different training guys, because they know that that training cave intimately. So then they can drill down on the focus of the diver skills in that particular section of the training. Because obviously, as an instructor, you don't want to be worried about oh, which was out, which was that which was this, your focus is on the on the students. And so if you do have a moment, you can easily look up the environment. Okay, I know exactly where I am. This is what I need to do. It's a decisive action. But yeah, it's very, it's very focused. And that's, that's something that you have to you have to accept when you're moving to technical is that you're your instructor is going to get close to you. That's why I say that is because I've had several students say to me on debriefs because a lot of the times I asked them to brief the diet debrief the dive, just to see where they're at, and what their thought processes were. And a lot of them say, you know, you got very close to me, Jeff, I'm not comfortable with that. And like, you need to get comfortable with being uncomfortable make on there to be your safety net if something goes wrong. And once they get that through their head, they're okay with it. And then you you transition into their cave environment where there are like, procedures where we practice going through restrictions, where you are very intimate with your teammate, you know, and once they they bring down that war, they're like, Okay, cool. Yeah, because it is, it is a feeling of comfort. I mean, you like when you're a child. When you're feeling uncomfortable, your parent picks you up, right and hold you when you're in a cave and you think the world's gonna when you feel the touch of your teammate or the instruct To it automatically. Someone's here. I'm okay. So it's just a matter of getting comfortable with the intimacy of the training. And you'll see with Claire and Lenny's, you know, they've been wonderful compound there, where they, you know, focus on the technical training of caves and an open open sea diving. So yeah, it's, it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. It's pretty cool to see the students enter the course, you know, fearful, anxious, questioning themselves. And then eight days later, they're a full cave diver. And they're just like, Wow, unbelievable confidence. It is an achievement. Because it really challenges challenges yourself. challenges, challenges, all the negative thoughts that you have. I can't do this where you just did it. Yeah, I can do this now. You know, so I think

Matt Waters: 1:05:56

it's Yeah, I think it's a particular kind of person that wants to do cave in though, isn't it? I know. Those little those few dives and played around with, you know, caves a little bit. You know, you shouldn't play around, but not to any great depth. But for me, I prefer the open space, the fish, the Rex. I don't get the excitement as much with caves. And that's just me being honest. I'm sure there's people out there that will be screaming by now guys.

Jeffrey Glenn: 1:06:27

Are Awesome. My reply to that, Matt, you haven't been to the right cave yet. I have to be honest. And every every time I go into a cave, I'm fearful. You know, I'm like, anxious, you know, got the 100 voices in my head go. As soon as you get in there, and you look around and you think, Wow, look how big these caves are? Yeah, you're like, wow, look at that. Look at that. Look at that. And before you know it within minutes. You're not even fearful anymore. You just like cool. Look at this stuff I'm looking at. Because you're diving into history, Matt, you're diving into history lab I have been fortunate enough to do some exploration dives in, in Mexico, to unexplored passages where I'm looking at things that I know, no one on this planet had seen before. Things hundreds of years old and it gives you a buzz, it gives you a path go. Wow, wow. And that draws you to draws you do a little bit more, you know, let's go here. What's around that corner? What's in that keyhole? So yeah, I mean, the challenge of technical diving is there. It's it's a challenging route. But once you're there, the rewards are endless, and I can't wait to get back to it. I'm excited to go COVID glory now I'm not just gonna look at my cape diving pictures now.

Matt Waters: 1:07:52

I'm just gonna think about some warmer water.

Jeffrey Glenn: 1:07:57

I did a couple of months of training in a Gambia just recently. I was teaching Ryan, his raid rebreather 60 Instructor Course. And I was teaching Matt and a couple of guys from Altona dollar shop in Altona. The entry level rebreather course and I was diving in Cosby's 780 degrees met so when you're used to 30 degree water in Thailand to move into 17 degrees and the boys down there will like it a warm day Jeff. I did buy some extra undergarments. I didn't. Well,

Matt Waters: 1:08:44

I'm not great with it. When we get one we're usually between 16 and if we're lucky 20 to 23 in the height of summer, but you know I do go and dive and I enjoy dive in here. However 1617 degrees it's it's certainly the one that makes me decide to have an extra cup of coffee instead.

Jeffrey Glenn: 1:09:07

You are music drysuit

Matt Waters: 1:09:09

I did do and then I started hitting the gym so the dry super bore I outgrew and then I'm a bit reluctant to spend another couple of three grand on it. Assuming it's been around growing, isn't it?

Jeffrey Glenn: 1:09:21

It's expensive until that um, again like you want to dive you know some of those places in Europe. You know you want to long submersion in Mexico, Florida. In those caves, yeah, you need to keep warm otherwise. I'd say that's it all over for you. And I'll shoot in a mindmap Steve Lambert I taught him his entry level. His entry level technical diving on Kotel and I was banned. The he moved on to rebreathers we went back to the States went back to Florida. They moved on to the rebreathers the Optima just founded Optima regretted Uh, and he's been throwing himself into the cape community there in Florida. And last weekend, he just did an eight and a half hour cave dive, some exploration dropped another like 500 metres a line and a cape passage that he and his mates had found. And, you know, for me as its initial instructor, I get a real buzz out of seeing my previous students just kicking ass and doing cool stuff in technical diving. You know, I've watched the progress of quite a few more students, and sometimes I think they've surpassed what I

Matt Waters: 1:10:37

got to get back. I gotta get back out there and

Jeffrey Glenn: 1:10:39

do some more. It's fascinating. It's really cool. Because that's, that's what you're seeing with technical you know, it's just, there's such a long journey with it. And going back to recreation, you can only go so far to recreation. Yeah. And follow people with a real true passion or diving do eventually migrate into tech. And once they realise the learning curves, there is exponential. It's it's it's a whole lifetime of adventure right there in front of you.

Matt Waters: 1:11:09

Yeah. Well, this has been a bit of an adventure in itself might. I think we'll I think we'll wrap it up for now. Okay. It's, it's been an absolute pleasure having on the show, buddy and seeing you it's been far too long. So I'm scared to say it, but we'll probably have a beer again at some point.

Jeffrey Glenn: 1:11:31

Next year, they're having us tech up and they want you in Sydney. They're doing it in Melbourne next year. Oh, yeah. It was supposed to be this year, but obviously COVID put a halt to those plans. But I think they're doing in September, next year in Melbourne. So I'll be going look into that. Make sure you get down there because I'll definitely be there for sure. But yeah, we may see each other in Cape Town right.

Matt Waters: 1:11:58

Fingers crossed. But

Jeffrey Glenn: 1:12:03

Rugby World Cups next to me. Is it is it next year or the year after? As 2023. So no, no as far as we can go. What's your rugby together?

Matt Waters: 1:12:14

Yeah, a little bit of carnage.

Jeffrey Glenn: 1:12:18

Thanks for having me, Matt. I really appreciate it. Enjoy the time with you, Mike. Good to see you again.

Matt Waters: 1:12:23

You too, buddy. It's been great. Thanks for coming on the show.

Unknown: 1:12:25

You're welcome. Thank you. Cheers, guys. Thanks everybody, me. podcast for the inquisitive diver.