Episode 75: Picking Over Kwawhtemok's Bones!

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In the late 19th century, a Mexican rancher named Florentino Juárez set the stage for a nationalistic hoax, the consequences of which continue to echo among Mexicano and Chicano communities. Beneath the altar of the village church in Ixcateopan, Guerrero, Juarez placed half-burnt bones, a handful of artifacts, and a copper plaque crudely engraved with the words “1525–1529. Lord and King Coatemo.” The remains, he claimed, belonged to none other than Kwawtemok, the last sovereign Tlahtoani of the Mexika people. This forgery was driven by Juárez’s ambition to elevate the status of his village and exploit Mexico’s rapidly growing cultural nationalism. The subsequent controversies, investigations, and appropriation of the legend surrounding the alleged “Tomb of Kwawtemok” help us understand the nature of Mexican national identity and the interplay between elite and grassroots manipulation of historical symbols.

Your Hosts:

Kurly Tlapoyawa is an archaeologist, ethnohistorian, and filmmaker. His research covers Mesoamerica, the American Southwest, and the historical connections between the two regions. He is the author of numerous books and has presented lectures at the University of New Mexico, Harvard University, Yale University, San Diego State University, and numerous others. He most recently released his documentary short film "Guardians of the Purple Kingdom," and is a cultural consultant for Nickelodeon Animation Studios.
@kurlytlapoyawa

Ruben Arellano Tlakatekatl is a scholar, activist, and professor of history. His research explores Chicana/Chicano indigeneity, Mexican indigenist nationalism, and Coahuiltecan identity resurgence. Other areas of research include Aztlan (US Southwest), Anawak (Mesoamerica), and Native North America. He has presented and published widely on these topics and has taught courses at various institutions. He currently teaches history at Dallas College – Mountain View Campus. 

Your Hosts:

Kurly Tlapoyawa is an archaeologist, ethnohistorian, and filmmaker. His research covers Mesoamerica, the American Southwest, and the historical connections between the two regions. He is the author of numerous books and has presented lectures at the University of New Mexico, Harvard University, Yale University, San Diego State University, and numerous others. He most recently released his documentary short film "Guardians of the Purple Kingdom," and is a cultural consultant for Nickelodeon Animation Studios.
@kurlytlapoyawa

Ruben Arellano Tlakatekatl is a scholar, activist, and professor of history. His research explores Chicana/Chicano indigeneity, Mexican indigenist nationalism, and Coahuiltecan identity resurgence. Other areas of research include Aztlan (US Southwest), Anawak (Mesoamerica), and Native North America. He has presented and published widely on these topics and has taught courses at various institutions. He currently teaches history at Dallas College – Mountain View Campus.

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Book: The Four Disagreements: Letting Go of Magical Thinking

Transcript

Kurly Tlapoyawa (00:02.618)
Greetings, dear listeners, and welcome to Tales from Atlantis, where we take you on a journey through Chicano, Mexicano, and Mes-Mes-Bleh. Mes-Mes. Here we go again. Greetings, Greetings, dear listeners, and welcome to Tales from Aztlantis where we take you on a journey through Chicano, Mexicano, and Mesoamerican history and archaeology.

Tlakatekatl (00:12.692)
Ms. Ms. in the Ms. Ms.

You

Kurly Tlapoyawa (00:32.162)
and we help combat the spread of disinformation about these very topics. We are your hosts, Curly Tlapoyahuac.

Tlakatekatl (00:41.406)
And Ruben Ariano, like I said.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (00:45.518)
You sound a little different today, doctor. What's going on?

Tlakatekatl (00:50.318)
I'm part of a super secret experiment and it's messing with my voice. I can't say much more about that.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:00.826)
It sounds, it sounds like you're dealing with some issues, but it sounds cool. It sounds like you've, you've, you've gone all Barry white on us. It's pretty bad.

Tlakatekatl (01:16.969)
from a slant this after dark.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:17.956)
So are things going in Tejaslan? Things good out there?

Tlakatekatl (01:25.262)
The hostile line, well, you know, I mean, it's I guess it's going as well as it can be.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:34.842)
For sure. I've been, I've been working out in the field and, the weather out here has been, wonky. Like one day it's windy and cold. And then the next day it's all sunny and hot, no wind. And it's just messing with our emotions, man. We're out there toiling away. We got to like, take it, you know, extra sets of clothing and stuff out to the field so that we were, we're prepared as each day changes.

Tlakatekatl (01:38.541)
Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (01:51.777)
Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (02:05.597)
cool.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (02:06.682)
But this episode that we're talking about today, today's episode, we've been meaning to do it for a while. It's one of those things that I'm honestly surprised we didn't address it in the first season. It's taken us five seasons. Yeah, yeah.

Tlakatekatl (02:23.81)
Well, we did talk about it. mean, like other episodes that we've done previously is like, okay, we'll get to it eventually. And, you know, just as a little sort of put a pin on this, we were just talking about this before we started recording how given everything that's going on, like, I mean, I feel like I have to say it. I don't know how you feel about it, Curly, but.

Like I do feel a little bit like hesitant to do these types of shows, but this is what we do. At Tales From Aztlantis, right? This is our brand. We were looking into the pseudoscience and the pseudo history that has been permeating within our communities for a very long time. but I just felt I wanted to get that out there so that people don't get the wrong impression about us, right? Like we are aware.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (03:01.112)
Yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (03:21.07)
Hahaha

Tlakatekatl (03:23.07)
what's going on. we do have like, like we did some shows last season, the Chicano Power Show, specifically related to all the nonsense that's going on. So we are aware about the current situation. So this is not to say that we have not forgotten what the assignment is, as people like to say out there in the social webs. And we are going to be bringing some more content that is related to the resistance.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (03:23.873)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (03:53.71)
Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, so don't don't get it twisted everybody. We we know we know what's going on, but we also have to, you know, be true to the show and address those topics that people honestly are used to us talking about. Right. And this season we are going to expand, like you said, we're going to expand to other topics related specifically to paths of resistance. La resistance, as you like to say.

Tlakatekatl (04:00.364)
window.

Tlakatekatl (04:24.034)
La resistencia. So what are we talking about this week?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (04:26.041)
Yep.

Well, sir, we're calling this episode Picking Over Kwauwtemok's Bones, Dr. Tlakatekat. And for this episode, I draw heavily from the 2011 book Kwauwtemok's Bones by Paul Gillingham. And if our audience wants a more in-depth look at the story behind the alleged tomb of Kwauwtemok,

Tlakatekatl (04:31.928)
Dr. Tlapoyawa

Tlakatekatl (04:37.599)
Oof. Oof.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (04:57.452)
I highly recommend that you read this book because this guy goes deep into everything that, you know, we're just going to scratch the surface. We're going to give like this the the the wide the big picture of what happened. But Gillingham's book is an excellent resource because it goes into, know, the nationalism and how nationalism plays out in Mexican identity. And it's just a real and it's a good read.

Tlakatekatl (05:02.794)
yeah, absolutely.

Tlakatekatl (05:11.16)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (05:15.106)
The porque?

Tlakatekatl (05:23.489)
Right.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (05:27.352)
You know, it's like one of those books that is honestly, it was kind of hard for me to put down because I wanted to find out what happened next. know,

Tlakatekatl (05:27.692)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (05:33.528)
Same here. Same here. Yeah, this book has been, like you said, it's been around since 2011. I think I first encountered it when I was in graduate school. And it's something that I considered including in my dissertation when I, in the section that I do have about Kwawhtemok's, you know, supposed mandate, where I briefly discussed that in my dissertation, but I don't really bring it in because.

It didn't really, I mean, I could have said a few words and I might have cited it, but I don't really get into the whole debacle about the bones, the authenticity, right?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (06:09.69)
So we will include a link so that you, dear listener, can purchase the book in the show notes for this episode. And so with that being said, let's dig in to this episode that we are calling...

Tlakatekatl (06:30.734)
you crack yourself up, Curly.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (06:33.186)
I do. Somebody has to. At least I crack somebody.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (06:40.378)
So if you would be so kind as to read the.

Tlakatekatl (06:42.616)
Digging into Quatemoc's bones? No, but we're gonna pick over Quatemoc's bones. Picking over Quatemoc's bones, sir.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (06:46.212)
Picking over quota. Yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (06:53.252)
Yes, sir. In the late 19th century, a Mexican rancher named Florentino Juarez set the stage for a nationalistic hoax, the consequences of which continue to echo among Mexicano and Chicano communities. Beneath the altar of the village church in Ixcateopan Guerrero, Juarez placed half

burnt bones, a handful of artifacts, and a copper plaque crudely engraved with the words 1525 to 1529, Lord and King Kwawhtemok. The remains, he claimed, belonged to none other than Kwawhtemok, the last sovereign Tláhuani of the Mexica people. This forgery

was driven by Juarez's ambition to elevate the status of his village and to exploit Mexico's rapidly growing cultural nationalism. The subsequent controversies, investigations, and appropriation of the legend surrounding the alleged tomb of Kwawhtemok help us to understand the nature of Mexican national identity and the interplay between elite and grassroots manipulation.

of historical symbols.

Tlakatekatl (08:27.458)
the symbolic rise of Quotemoc.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (08:31.14)
So for those who don't know, Kwawhtemok was the 11th and final sovereign Tlatwani of the Mexica people. He ascended to the role in 1520 following the death of his uncle, Cuitláhuac, who died after being exposed to disease brought into Mexico Tenochtitlan by a slave of the Spanish. It was Kwawhtemok who led the final defense of the Mexica capital.

against allied indigenous and Spanish forces. Following the fall of Mexico Tenochtitlan, he was baptized as Fernando Cuauhtemocin and continued to hold his position under the Spanish, keeping the title of Tlatuani, but he was no longer a sovereign ruler. In 1525, Hernán Cortés brought him along on his expedition to Honduras.

as Cortes feared that Kwawhtemok would lead an uprising in his absence. While the expedition was stopped in the Chontal Maya capital of Itzamcanac, also known as Acalan in Nahuatl, Cortes had Kwawhtemok and several other indigenous leaders hung from a saiba tree for allegedly conspiring to kill the Spaniards. According to the cronista Bernal Díaz del

Castillo, the executions were unjust and not based on any factual evidence. Bernal Diaz also recorded that Kwawhtemok delivered the following speech to Cortes before being executed.

Tlakatekatl (10:16.148)
O malintzin, ie cortes, now I understand your false promises and the kind of death you have in store for me, for you are killing me unjustly. May God demand justice from you as it was taken from me when I entrusted myself to you in my city of Mexico.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (10:41.732)
So, know, cool words and Bernal Diaz wrote them down, but did Kwawhtemok say this or something similar to this? Who knows, honestly. I would like to think that he did, you know, call out Cortez as like being a little punk bitch for having him executed.

Tlakatekatl (11:02.018)
Yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (11:03.498)
Following his execution, the figure of Kwawhtemok faded into relative obscurity during the colonial period. Early narratives portrayed him as either a martyr or a collaborator, yet his potential as a symbolic figure of indigenous resistance remained dormant. After Mexico's independence, references to Kwawhtemok were sporadic and ill-defined. He gradually ascended.

as a nationalist symbol during the Porfiriato, when leaders like Vicente Riva Palacio enshrined him in novels, histories, and monuments. By the late 19th century, Kwawhtemok embodied a heroic lineage that connected Mexico's pre-Hispanic and mestizo identities. However, this nationalist narrative was missing a vital element, a physical body.

The fetishization of historical remains, a phenomenon common in nationalist movements, was deeply ingrained in Porfirio Mexico. The state orchestrated exhumations and public ceremonies to honor national heroes, converting their earthly remains into sacred relics to foster national unity. In all, there were at least

102 state funerals and 14 exhumations and reburials of national heroes from 1876 to 1911. Nicolas Bravo, a guerrero leader in the War of Independence, was even reburied twice. And Alvaro Obregón's right arm, which had been severed in battle in 1915 during the Mexican Revolution,

remains enshrined in a monument that is still visited by school children. Florentino Juarez exploited this cultural and political context to fabricate a tomb, aiming to transform his beloved patriachica of Ixcatlíopan into a historical epicenter. Juarez viewed Kwawhtemok as a means to restore Ixcatlíopan's diminishing significance.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (13:27.044)
You see, the village had lost both territory and influence to the neighboring town of Ishcapu Salco, which became an independent municipality in 1891, taking with it much of Ixkateopan's fertile land. This loss significantly affected Juarez, whose political and economic future was intertwined with the status of Ixkateopan. Fabricating Kwawhtemok's tomb,

was a strategic maneuver to reassert the village's historical relevance, recover its territorial integrity, and enhance his local authority. To achieve this, Juárez spun a tale claiming that Kwawhtemok was secretly a native of Ixcateopan and that he had been buried in the village church by none other than the Franciscan friar, Motolania.

following his execution in Honduras. According to the legend, a group of indigenous loyalists secretly retrieved Kwawhtemok's body, preserved it with herbs, and transported it under the cover of darkness back to Iscatiopan, the place of his birth, where Motolonia buried it and ordered a small church constructed over the tomb. Juarez meticulously forged the documents to support this narrative.

and promoted the story among his fellow villagers, embedding it within local customs. And this part's interesting. I didn't mention it in the script, but I did want to briefly mention it that he even started this tradition of stopping in front of the church and like taking off his hat and bowing to the church. And it like picked up amongst other people in the community. And they're like, why do we bow to the church? And they were like, because Qualtelmok is buried there.

Tlakatekatl (15:12.576)
Mm-hmm. And bowing. Right.

Tlakatekatl (15:23.214)
Yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (15:23.288)
So it was like a clever way of creating a tradition, right, in his community. Exactly. Unfortunately for Juarez, it was way easier to create the tomb than it was to generate enough interest to have it excavated. Throughout the 1890s, he made numerous attempts to have the tomb of Kwawhtemok excavated, seeking support from the priest, Severo Rodriguez.

Tlakatekatl (15:27.328)
Right. Inventing a tradition.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (15:50.636)
influential merchants like the Flores family from Tashko, two successive jefes políticos, and even reaching out to President Diaz. His most notable progress occurred in 1899 during his tenure as mayor when the subject received brief mention in a few lines of the Metropolitan Press. Juárez's declining political standing may have eroded his credibility

Or maybe the politicians of Mexico City were hesitant to resurrect a symbol of resistance in Guerrero, a state with a history of rebellion. Ultimately, yeah, right. I mean, to this day. Yeah, I do. Once I got pulled off a bus when I was going through Guerrero and I'd fallen asleep on this bus. And this is when the EPEERE was was active. And.

Tlakatekatl (16:30.25)
Right?

to this day.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (16:48.142)
I was asleep on this bus and somebody nudged me and I woke up and there were there were two soldiers on the bus and they pulled me and two other guys. We all kind of looked alike. So we must have matched, you know, the profile that they were of somebody they were looking for. And I was wearing a fucking Che Guevara shirt. And I wake up and they pull me off the bus and, know, they heard me my shitty Spanish and they're like, all right, get back on.

Tlakatekatl (16:59.47)
So a profile. Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (17:07.308)
shit.

Tlakatekatl (17:16.462)
This is pocho we for.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (17:20.63)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they kept one of the dudes. The other guy got back on and I, know to this day, I wonder what, what the hell happened to that guy. Yeah. Because that shit was gnarly. So yeah, Guerrero, it's the history of rebellion. Ultimately, the tomb remained undisturbed during Juarez's life. The bones remained concealed. Ishka Putsalko's independence endured.

Tlakatekatl (17:28.686)
What happened to him?

Tlakatekatl (17:33.452)
I mean, Guerrero, right?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (17:49.242)
and Juarez passed away during the revolution. The tomb lay dormant until 1949, when Juarez's grandson, Salvador Rodriguez Juarez, presented the forged documents to Padre Salgado, the parish priest. Salgado was totally into it. He recounted the story in a sermon, and within days, news about Kwawhtemok's tomb

Tlakatekatl (17:52.706)
Mm-hmm.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (18:18.426)
reached the president and made headlines in Mexico City. Now this just so happened to coincide with the wave of post-revolutionary nationalism under the Partido Revolucionario Institucional or the PRI, which sought to unify Mexico's diverse populations through symbols like Kwawhtemok. Between 1947 and 1949, the PRI distributed nearly a million

free biographies of Mexico's national heroes. In 1948, Interior Minister Hector Perez-Martinez himself published a biography of Kwawhtemok, while historian Salvador Toscano was preparing another in 1949. Nationalistic fervor, driven by the exaltation of historical figures, was sweeping Mexico. In the three years leading up to the revelation,

of the Ixkateopan documents, archaeologists had unearthed remains purportedly belonging to figures like Hernán Cortés and the Niños Héroes, the six cadets who died defending Chapultepec Castle from the U.S. invasion in 1847. Against this charged atmosphere, Salvador Rodríguez Juárez saw the perfect opportunity to fulfill his grandfather's failed plan.

to bolster Ixkateopan. Governor Baltasar Leyva Mansia, facing political turmoil, enthusiastically endorsed the narrative, hoping it would reinforce his administration's legitimacy. The governor acted quickly, forming a state commission and enlisting anthropologist Eulalia Guzman to oversee the excavation. Guzman, it should be noted, was a high profile

Mexicanista aligned with the MCRCA, a group known to push pseudo-historical nationalist narratives about Mexico's indigenous past, and a group that we have mentioned numerous times throughout the course of this podcast. Yeah. The excavation of the tomb began on September 20th and proved to be extremely chaotic and unscientific. The team lacked torches,

Tlakatekatl (20:29.11)
plenty of times.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (20:43.802)
metal detectors, an engineer, a supervisory archaeologist, a photographer, a field diary, a dig plan, a research design, and a clear leader. Nevertheless, on September 26, 1949, they unearthed what they claimed to be the Tomb of Kwawhtemok. A wave of nationalist ceremonies followed the alleged discovery, including the proclamation of 1950 as being

the year of Kwawhtemok. Schools, streets, and public works were named in honor of the Tlatuani, and grand parades celebrated his legacy. However, the momentum soon stalled. Experts from the Instituto Nacional de Antropología y Historia, also known as INAH, declared the tomb a hoax. The Juarez documents had already been dismissed early on as a crude forgery

in a powerful and very public academic consensus in the days leading up to the discovery. When the INAH released its report on October 19th, it condemned the excavation, dated the artifacts and documents to the 19th century, and revealed that the supposed remains of Kualtemok were instead fragmented bones belonging to an adolescent, a young man, a young woman,

and two small children. News of the hoax even made international news, as evidenced by this article in the October 31, 1949 issue of Time Magazine, titled, Mexico, Whose Bones?

Tlakatekatl (22:29.762)
When the National Museum's graying Eulalia Guzman, announced in the backwoods village of Ixkateopan that, quote, the remains of the last emperor of the Aztecs have been found, end quote, all Mexico went wild. Nearly every town in the country held a special fiesta. On Columbus Day, Dia de la Raza, the discoverer was nearly forgotten in the flowery eulogies of Kwawhtemok last chief of the discovered.

Though the government set up a commission to investigate the find, hardly anyone doubted its authenticity. The Bank of Mexico's research laboratories announced that the documents which led to the unearthing of Kwawhtemok's bones were indeed 400 years old and that the ink, writing, and signature on them appeared genuine. Leading archaeologists agreed. Crowds of tourists began to make up the five-hour trip over rock-strewn roads from Taxko to the Ixkateopan Church.

where they goggled at a few shoeboxes full of bone fragments and the copper disc found under the altar bearing the inscription Señor y Rey Cuatemo. Last week, the official commission headed by Manuel Guadalvidal, Minister of Education, made a bone-chilling announcement. Quote, the documents and copper disc inscription, it stated flatly, are both false.

Taking into consideration the examination of the human bones, which turned out to be those of five persons, and one of them a woman and at least two children, this commission concludes that there are no scientific proof to permit confirmation that the remains are those of the Emperor of Kwawhtemok Proclaiming her unshaken belief that the bones actually were those of the last Aztec ruler, Eulalia Guzman packed up for another trip to Ixkateopan

The red-faced Bank of Mexico kept its own council. One question remained unsolved. Was the hoax the work of a 20th century man or had it been perpetrated by some long forgotten 16th century prankster?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (24:40.846)
The governor of Guerrero tried in vain to suppress the report of the Gran Comisión and denounced it as a crime against the patria. High ranking party officials such as the secretary general and future president Adolfo Lopez Mateos rallied in agreement. Diego Rivera, stoking public outrage, dramatically called for the entire INAH commission to be executed. God damn.

Tlakatekatl (25:07.174)
Whoa, slow down, Diego. Jeez.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (25:10.234)
Take it easy, Diego. To quell the uproar, President Alemán ordered the creation of a second commission, staffed by some of the most prominent Mexican scholars of the 20th century. This commission's role was to deliver an authoritative verdict that could quietly resolve the growing scandal. And when the so-called Gran Comisión report was finally released in February 1951, the conclusion

Tlakatekatl (25:14.382)
I'm on and-

Kurly Tlapoyawa (25:40.142)
was the same. The tomb of Quautemoc was indeed an elaborate hoax. Despite academic condemnation, Quautemoc's alleged rediscovery sparked intense symbolic competition. this this blew my mind because I hadn't really known about this part. Leftist groups co-opted his image as a figure of anti-imperialism.

Tlakatekatl (25:46.583)
Mwah, mwah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (26:08.728)
while conservative factions promoted him as a hierarchical Catholic hero. Odd. Yeah. The federal government felt uneasy about the tombs in authenticity and its political implications and distance itself from the situation altogether. Over time, public interest waned and Qualtdemoc's official commemoration faded into obscurity.

Tlakatekatl (26:17.39)
That's weird though, right?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (26:38.796)
All of this is detailed in the excellent 2005 article, Emperor of Ishqatiopan, also written by Paul Gillingham. This article reads in part,

Tlakatekatl (26:52.448)
A loose yet broad left-wing coalition, which included muralists, pro-authenticity academics, Lázaro Cárdenas and Pablo Neruda, used the press and public ceremonies to construct an alternative dissident cuatémoc, whose central characteristics were incorruptibility and anti-imperialism.

In November, the Soviet embassy sponsored a commemoration of the Russian Revolution, in which Kuwaiti Mok was heavily invoked. In February of 1950, an unscheduled speaker violently seized the microphone at a state-endorsed commemoration of Kuwaiti Mok's death to deliver an anti-Spanish, anti-government, and extreme left diatribe. By 1951, Tsikadous was comparing the last emperor to Arab nationalists, the Viet Minh and Mao Tse Tung. The since

of lost control was palpable, and was increased by vigorous symbolic competition from across the right. The Partido de Acción Nacional's magazine swung between a modulated skepticism and the promotion of the Catholic, hierarchically disciplined Kwawhtemok. Conservative and in some cases pro-Franco hispanistas attacked them as the cannibal leader of a totalitarian state. Even the fascist Acción Remocionaria Mexicana joined the festivities.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (28:10.98)
course they did.

Tlakatekatl (28:15.296)
organizing anti-communist commemorations of their own. For the government, the putative benefits of developing a cult to Guatemala were quickly outweighed by the evident cost and so the monuments were never built, the ceremonies were rapidly allowed to tail off, and the final piece in the controversy, the Gran Comisión report, was convincingly buried."

Kurly Tlapoyawa (28:41.26)
Yet the myth persisted. Grassroots actors, including Ixkateopan villagers, continued to leverage Kwawhtemok's legacy for political and economic gain. And honestly, who could blame them, right? The Rodriguez Juarez family, central to the tomb's rediscovery, used the legend to reclaim local power and secure development projects. Their manipulation of Kwawhtemok's image

Tlakatekatl (28:56.844)
Right?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (29:11.032)
reflects the broader dynamics of nationalism as a contested and multi-layered phenomenon. While Eulalia Guzman's academic reputation never really fully recovered from the controversy, she found herself lionized by MCRCA adherents who continue to promote the tomb as factual. Ixkateopan now identifies itself as the cradle of indigenousness.

Tlakatekatl (29:39.586)
Really?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (29:39.704)
with the main plaza named after Guzman. I have often wondered if she went to her grave thinking that she had actually found Kwawhtemok's tomb, or if she knew in her heart all along that it was a hoax. And honestly, part of me wonders if it even matters that the tomb is a hoax, as it has in many ways transcended its dubious origins to become a powerful symbol.

with deep meaning for many who struggle for indigenous self-determination. To this day, every February 23rd through February 28th, hundreds of danzantes gather at that small, unassuming church in Ixcatl'Iopan to dance and offer up beautiful ceremony in honor of Kwawhtemok. And that has to mean something. The story of Kwawhtemok's tomb

demonstrates the fluid nature of historical memory and how it is often manipulated to form national identity. Whether the tomb is real or fake, Kwawhtemok's legacy endures as a symbol of Indigenous resistance. Kwawhtemok presente.

Tlakatekatl (30:56.878)
All right. All right.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (31:01.814)
So here's the thing. So like, yeah, you know, I do think it's become its own thing, right? Like it's become this powerful place, like a pilgrimage site basically for activists and people that are reconnecting to their indigeneity and indigenous resistance. But here's the rub for me as an archeologist and just as a person.

Tlakatekatl (31:21.422)
Mm-hmm.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (31:29.612)
we know that the bones belong to other people, most likely other indigenous people from that Pueblo, from Ixkateopan, if not from somewhere in Guerrero, probably. And, you know, in this atmosphere, this heavily charged atmosphere of where people are actively seeking repatriation of human remains to be...

re-interned, think honestly the right thing to do would be to honor the memories of these indigenous people whose bones are actually on display and recognize them for what they are and possibly re-intern them, rebury them. It just kind of rubs me the wrong way to see these bones of these people manipulated and used.

Tlakatekatl (32:15.352)
Hmm.

Tlakatekatl (32:21.004)
Now, these bones that were found there, are these bones from locals or were they brought in from elsewhere? Do we know like?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (32:31.62)
See, that much I do not know. It might be somewhere in in Gillingham's book. Like I didn't, you know, I haven't given a thorough rereading. Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (32:38.038)
Yeah, it's been it's been years since I've read this book. Yeah, because I do remember I do remember that. I mean, the whole controversy that erupted, he talks about it. And also, like when I was doing my dissertation research at UT at the at the Benson Library, there was there was a book that I found like one of those old Mexican booklets that they like a report like it was a.

I forgot, there might have been an INAH report by one of these people who were on that commission. And he was on the side of that it was a hoax, right? And he was pointing out, you say in the script, pointing out the various discrepancies and the fact that it was kind of unscientific. And it really surprises me because Ulania was

You know, when she first came on the scene, she's regarded as the first anthropologist slash archaeologist Mexicana in who had studied under some of the early, you know, scientific anthropologists, archaeologists of the late 19th century, early 20th century. Franz Boas, I believe, like was one of her mentors. And so she understood like what it was to be scientifically.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (33:36.516)
Mm-hmm.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (33:49.658)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (33:58.03)
trained archaeologists like the rigor that it takes to conduct the study, a dig and all the different tools and the different. We'll start looking for. Different mechanisms that you have to set up to ensure that that what you're doing is being conducted in the right way so that there aren't any questions whatsoever about whatever report and whatever conclusions you arrive at.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (34:21.732)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (34:28.406)
So that there's no doubt that you followed the procedures that have been set out for you. Right. And so it surprises me that at this very important site, even by, by the stand, her standards being a Mexican is that I'm being affiliated with the MCRCA, but also by the standards of the government too. And, and I remember the report saying that, you know, they were, they were sympathetic to, to Eulalia, right. They, understood that what.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (34:32.911)
Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (34:57.602)
the bones were and that the tomb had been proven to not be what it was claimed to be, right? And that it was still like, at the time that the report came out, that it was still being debated whether or not these bones were even of the period in question, right? And so the author was sympathizing with her because he understood that what it meant to have discovered God-Democ's bones.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (35:23.482)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (35:25.524)
But he also lamented the fact that being who she was, all the different things that had happened during that excavation that were preventable. But he also put in a side note where he mentions that the government didn't send her with the proper materials, that they just sent her out there to go investigate. And maybe she was a little bit hasty in trying to assert

Kurly Tlapoyawa (35:54.521)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (35:55.874)
some kind of control over the site too. So because she was trying to prevent, I guess, contamination from people coming in. And so they had locals overseeing. Right. They had locals basically overseeing the bones overnight. There was no rigorous mechanism in place to be able to safeguard these remains that have been uncovered.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (36:04.536)
Yeah, because it's a church, right? Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (36:22.626)
And so on the one hand, he's saying, yes, it turned out that it's not what it's reported to be. But on the other hand, she was kind of sent out to conduct this investigation without the proper materials and even enough personnel to even conduct a proper excavation. So they kind of like hung her out to dry in the sense is what he was saying.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (36:40.686)
Yeah, when you, yeah, when you read the, yeah, for sure. mean, when you read the, how the excavation, was conducted, it's, it was chaos. Like it sounded like it sounds like pure chaos was happening there. And, know, and nowadays when we do a, especially when it, you know, there's human remains involved, it's tightly controlled.

Tlakatekatl (36:53.666)
It was chaos. Right, right. Like there's no control,

Kurly Tlapoyawa (37:10.578)
we have tribal monitors present. we, know, a lot of care and consideration is, is, is given to these instances where, and just for this mad house, sounds like it was a mad house in that church of people. You know, just, you could imagine clamoring to see the bones or, know, trying to get in there and, and, and help, you know, quote unquote, or just out of curiosity or, know, because you know, how.

Tlakatekatl (37:18.848)
Is given, Right.

Tlakatekatl (37:35.744)
Right. Yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (37:40.206)
We are shit. see something, you know, there's like a la Virgen appears in a water stain on a wall and there's people around the block trying to get into the house to see it.

Tlakatekatl (37:47.99)
Well, also, especially given the fact of that tradition that you brought up where, you know, people would give a nod on their way down that street. when they cross the church, they would give a little nod in honor of Quatemoc. So like the local community, they did, like there was no way for them to know for a fact. They just knew that this is what someone had started doing and everyone did it now. And it became a tradition. And so they did it out of habit.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (37:57.347)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (38:16.493)
And so it was a thing that people did. Maybe they didn't really give it much thought. But then it finally like if I remember from the book, it finally clicked with a lot of the people in the town. Oh, wait a minute. Yes, quote them. That's right. His remains are there and now they're about to excavate his remains. And so that also played into the whole chaos of what was happening at the time is that the whole town who had kind of known about this, right. But they knew but they didn't really know. They just

Kurly Tlapoyawa (38:38.83)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (38:46.166)
Someone had told them at some point that is, that Guatemala's bones are buried there at this church and so we must honor it. But no one really knew for a fact. And now we have the official archaeologists from the INAH. We have the government officials coming in to conduct an official investigation. So that gives credence, that gives weight to the whole tradition itself. So the local community had some

Kurly Tlapoyawa (38:51.556)
Yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (39:01.198)
Yeah, yeah.

Tlakatekatl (39:16.027)
They had something invested in this being true. Right?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (39:20.442)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And just in terms of, you know, because I even mentioned it, development projects, you know, get a new road. Hey, we're going to have a lot of tourists coming in here. We're going to have a lot of people come in. Let's get this road repaired. Let's get this plaza repaired. Let's, you know, let's have some improvements to the infrastructure of our community so they benefit it materially from this.

Tlakatekatl (39:38.838)
Yeah. Right.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (39:48.9)
this this hoax basically and you whether they knew it or not that whether it was a hoax or not they saw real benefits from that so they were inclined to believe it right like well yeah we're we're gonna get and plus who doesn't want you know call them to be from your hometown and and and

Tlakatekatl (39:59.959)
Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (40:05.358)
Right. Exactly. I mean, because when I started on this road, one of the things that I do remember is learning that Kuatembuks bones were buried at Ixkateopan, that he could go visit the site, he could go do the danza that's done every year in his honor. And then even like the oral tradition, like stated that Ixkateopan was not only

where he was buried, but isn't that like where he was supposed to have been born like his mother or that he was from there or right? Like there was an actual family connection that like his remains didn't just end up there, you know, because they had to be somewhere, right? Like by happenstance, exactly. Like there was a direct family connection to Ishkati Opan, right? And so it just happens to be that, yeah, he's buried at that church. So it all makes.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (40:35.49)
Yeah, that his mom was was from Ishqatiopan.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (40:45.634)
Yeah, by happenstance. Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (40:58.206)
since when you're part of this tradition and that's all you know because that's what people have told you kind of like those townsfolk like they they couldn't confirm anything they just knew that someone started you know nodding their head in honor of Kwawhtemok at the church and so people just kind of started picking up on it and so when you're in in the tradition as a danzante or if you're just in on the red road in Mexikayotl and people tell you this stuff and like you have no information that you

Kurly Tlapoyawa (41:16.43)
Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (41:26.542)
You have nowhere to turn to. Like, where are the resources for this, right? Besides the oral tradition. So you believe it because, you know, the default position is that you want to believe that what people tell you in general is true. Like people don't necessarily go around, you know, telling lies all the time, unless you're a habitual liar, right? But in general, like the default position is if someone tells you, hey, it's going to rain tomorrow.

then chances are it might rain because they might've seen something on the news, you know, or what have you, right? So you're gonna believe them. The default position is that, yeah, they're probably telling me the truth. So why would anyone who's in the tradition and dance be skeptical when someone tells them, yeah, guess what, Kwawhtemok's bones are buried in the Ixkateopan And not only that, but we know that this is true because that's where, you know, his mom was from. So.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (41:59.606)
Yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (42:20.846)
Yeah, yeah.

Tlakatekatl (42:21.088)
And if you're new to all this and you have no way to gather any information for yourself to investigate, then you're going to believe it. I mean, why question it? It's very, you know.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (42:30.36)
Yeah. Well, and then a lot of these times you're also actively encouraged not to question these claims. Right. Like, you know, like you want to look into it, you know, like because I, you know, I get messages from from Danzantes that are like, hey, I've always wanted to ask this, but I was told, you know, by so and so not to ask, but.

Tlakatekatl (42:37.57)
Well, that too. I didn't want to go there. I'm just... Sure.

Tlakatekatl (42:54.818)
Not to ask. Yeah. Right.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (42:58.49)
My curiosity is getting the better of me. And so, mean, and look, man, I was a hardcore believer in this. I 100 percent, you know, quote, I'm looking at you, And I'm going to admit this one, this one hurt like finding out that this was not true, like really bummed me the fuck out, man. Like I felt shitty. But then I'm faced with this dilemma. Like, do I?

Tlakatekatl (43:09.87)
Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (43:15.278)
Yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (43:29.188)
tell people like or do I just let it slide right and that's one thing yeah yeah yeah

Tlakatekatl (43:34.542)
Well, I mean, it's not like no one knows, right? I mean, even at the time, right? And now you have this book that was written in 2011. It's a history book written by a historian that looked into this. Like, it's not just making stuff up. Like, he's using sources to tell the story, right? So it's not like the only people that are fooling themselves are the people who don't want to accept the facts at this point, right?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (43:45.634)
Mm-hmm.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (43:49.518)
Yeah, data, yep.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (43:58.488)
Yeah, exactly.

Tlakatekatl (44:02.466)
But I did want to also mention before we move on, I have this book that I checked out of the library recently. Hold on, let me get it.

Tlakatekatl (44:24.214)
And it's called Mexicanas que hicieron historia by Pedro J. Fernandez. And in this book, he's compiled a list of Mexican women who did something, who are historically significant, who accomplished something in their lives that made a difference either locally in their communities or...

on the national scale. And Eulalia Guzman is one of these women who is listed. And the book's in Spanish if you want, if you can find it at your local library. It's called Mexicanas que hicieron historias. And so just wanted to refer to the page for Eulalia Guzman. If I'm not mistaken, it's page 99. Here it is. And so I wanted to.

It's geared towards young readers. So it's like a brief bio. It's a couple of pages of Eulania Guzman and of the various people who are being profiled here, various women. But at the very back, it's you have, they commissioned some artists, some female artists to do, you know, like the pictures of the various women being profiled. This is Eulania. You can see it right there, right?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (45:25.39)
Mm-hmm.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (45:46.347)
very cool. Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (45:48.844)
And so it's a couple of pages. You have one, you have two. And then on the last page for each, they have like a little, I don't know what to call it, comment bubble of some sort. And to their credit, to their credit, again, this is in Spanish, to their credit, they explain that, you know, because, you know, they give her her due and they explain how she, you know, came up through the ranks and was educated, how she was always very curious about things.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (45:59.47)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (46:17.966)
especially things related to her community to Mexico and how she would travel to Europe and Spain and how she gathered materials, various old scripts that she felt belonged to Mexico. And she was able to get some of those items to be returned to Mexico, to be repatriated to Mexico. But to their credit, at the end, they do mention that she was involved in a controversial find.

that turned out not to be true. So they're very diplomatic about it, because again, this is geared towards young readers. they're not, at least what I appreciated from this book is that they're not trying to perpetuate that myth that she actually found, Kwawhtemok's bones as well. Because it could have been easy for this person to sensationalize for, to get more attention to the book by saying stuff like that.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (46:53.272)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (47:08.418)
Yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (47:15.256)
Yeah, when did that book come out?

Tlakatekatl (47:18.062)
It's fairly recent. This is from 2024. I think it might have been last year or the year before. But yeah, it's like not even a couple of years old. Because I looked it up.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (47:21.006)
Yeah, it looks recent.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (47:33.37)
That's very cool. Well, Eulalia Guzman, didn't she, she also wrote like a critique or an analysis of Hernan Cortez's letters, right? Like, wasn't that one of...

Tlakatekatl (47:45.592)
She did, in fact, yeah, she, I'm not sure if that was like her thesis, but she published a book, and I have a copy of that thick book as well. Let me see.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (47:58.328)
I know you do, you bastard.

Tlakatekatl (48:15.79)
This thing is a tome. Look at this.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (48:20.128)
Uh-huh. What's that symbol on the front?

Tlakatekatl (48:22.446)
This is the front.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (48:27.29)
What does that say? okay. You have it upside down. like, can, it's upside down.

Tlakatekatl (48:29.902)
Can you read it? Is it upside down? Oh, sorry.

There you go.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (48:37.772)
Okay, Relaciones de Hernán Cortés, Eulalia Guzmán. Very cool, man. Where'd you find that?

Tlakatekatl (48:41.944)
Yeah. Yep. Yes, sir. This online, I just did a deep search in the various usual places that I look for books and it wasn't cheap. Let me tell you, it cost me.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (48:56.538)
I imagine.

Tlakatekatl (48:58.702)
Pretty penny as they say. She published this in 1958. 1958. And as we were preparing to do the episode back in season one or two, I believe on Kuatemuk and the mandate of Kuatemuk, if I'm not mistaken, I started to go over this book to see if there was anything here that would give credence to that mandate.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (49:00.247)
I imagine. Well,

Kurly Tlapoyawa (49:19.514)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (49:28.974)
And again, this is published before the supposed mandate was released to the public, revealed in 19, was it 63, 64? So she does not even mention it at all, period. As far as I could tell. But then again, it's like I said, it's a very, very large tone. but I went to the places where you would be able to find that the pages.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (49:35.064)
Revealed? Yeah. Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (49:56.186)
And it doesn't mention anything about that. So I don't know what that says about the mandate, except we've already discussed it. So if you're curious, dear listener, and you haven't listened to that episode, we, season one, right? We recommend it. Yeah. But this is a very, very cool book because she includes, she includes plates with images like this is.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (50:03.034)
Yeah.

That's a season one. Yup. Invented words. The declaration of Kwab Damwok.

Tlakatekatl (50:24.076)
Relacion, so she's looking at Cortez's letters and so here's one that has been reproduced, facsimile-ed. Right, yeah, so there's stuff like this in there. Let me see, what else? I believe also the Lienzo de Tlaxcala is also here. Is that what this is or no? What is this? No, this isn't the lienzo, but this is one that you see a lot.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (50:34.429)
very cool.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (50:52.41)
That's from the, that is from the lienzo, the Tlaxcala. Yeah, yeah.

Tlakatekatl (50:54.988)
That is a link, so that's what I thought. And so you have that. You have...

And then you have, of course, this one here. This is what she's calling it.

So that's this one here.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (51:21.228)
Mm-hmm. From the, looks like that's from the Florentine, from the Florentine codecs.

Tlakatekatl (51:22.318)
I don't know if you're from the Florentine maybe. So yeah, it would take me years to go through this whole thing and really analyze it. And I think this is the Lienso fully reproduced.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (51:34.766)
Mm-hmm.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (51:41.902)
Yeah, that's one of the sections of it. Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (51:43.554)
One of the sections of it. So yeah, to her credit, she did put in a lot of work. It's unfortunate that because of her connection to the tumba de Kwawhtemok that her career kind of took a downturn. But look, towards the end of the book, she also was one of the first people to reproduce these kinds of maps in her books.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (52:02.509)
Mm-hmm.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (52:11.756)
So is that like the, that's the route that he took? Yeah. That a cruise. That is cool. Well, speaking of cool things and Mexicanas, did you see, la presidenta give her, her presentation for quote them walk. That was very cool. Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (52:13.226)
the, yeah, the route of Cortez that he took from Veracruz to Mexico City. So that's pretty cool.

Tlakatekatl (52:29.962)
I did.

I did, did. was, man, I'm telling you, I'm telling you. It's like, you know, it's weird. It's funny because here in the U S you have people who claim that the current felon in chief who is occupying the white house, the part of the, the, the reason why he's in there is because you had a lot of Raza who voted for him, which is true, right? There was a significant amount of.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (53:01.263)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (53:01.478)
Chicano, Mexicanos, and other people from Central South America who voted for him, who now have voters remorse, right? Like you're seeing a lot of this. But even from the very beginning, I don't know if I think me and you discussed it, but I don't think we've touched upon it here on the podcast. It's like whatever votes he got from our community did not sway the needle one way or the other because it was very minimal.

Right. And so this idea, right, this idea has permeated in the discourse that the reason why, you know, Rasa voted for Trump is because of misogyny and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, have you looked at the current president in Mexico? I mean, if that were true, if that were right. And so I like the fact that exactly.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (53:46.976)
Yeah, yeah, that doesn't really, that doesn't jive, right? Yeah.

Those two ideas are not congruent.

Tlakatekatl (53:56.524)
So I like the fact that we have a female president in Mexico who is belying that notion. Not only that, but she's standing up for the country in the face of this monster who keeps trying to antagonize and instigate shit with Mexico. And she's standing up. And then she had this huge turnout recently at the Socalo. Was it the Socalo or one of the Socalo, right?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (54:22.426)
Yeah, I was in the Zocalo. Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (54:24.492)
where thousands upon thousands of people showed up to rally in support, not only of her, but for Mexico. Right. And the fact that she is standing up, you know, against this crap man crybaby or crybaby man. What like, come on. Like that's that's that's awesome. Right. Like that's something to celebrate.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (54:40.943)
Yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (54:44.504)
Yeah, absolutely. And what I...

Tlakatekatl (54:47.382)
And so I can't wait for this book to be updated with Shine Bomb.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (54:52.824)
Yeah, right. So for those of you who are premium members, you will be getting an entire extra segment to this episode in our premium feed where we will be discussing the Niños Héroes and the effort to find their remains, which I mentioned briefly in this episode.

Tlakatekatl (55:12.61)
Wait a minute. Wait a minute. We're going after the Niñoseros too? Come on. Come on. Please. Please say it ain't so.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (55:17.498)
Well, you got to listen, premium members, to find out. If you were not a premium member, please consider becoming one. Just follow the link in the show notes and for a mere five dollars a month, five bucks a month, will get ad free episodes with bonus.

Tlakatekatl (55:35.86)
Five dollars. Five.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (55:43.45)
content, premium episodes and access to our Discord server where you can interact with us, your favorite co-hosts and other fans of the show. Go premium and support independent, indigenous Chicano media. And until next time, remember the truth, it's like medicine. It doesn't always taste good, but it is always good for you.

Tlakatekatl (56:13.656)
Interesting.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (56:19.076)
So now for our premium members, we're gonna continue with some bonus content that the free listeners don't get. Finding the Child Heroes. In the non-premium version of this episode, I briefly mentioned the exhumation and reburial of the Niños Héroes, six cadets who died while valiantly defending Chapultepec Castle during the U.S.-Mexico War.

This event, now appropriately called the Battle of Chapultepec, was one of the last major conflicts of the U.S.-Mexico War, and it went down on September 13th, 1847, a date now celebrated in Mexico as a civic holiday. Chapultepec Castle was built in the 18th century by a viceroy. After Mexican independence, it served as a military academy.

where future officers in the Mexican army were trained. During the US invasion, the castle was under the command of Generals Nicolás Bravo and Jose Mariano Monterde. During the battle, the Mexican troops were greatly outnumbered. And after about two hours of combat, General Bravo ordered a retreat. And here is where the legend was born. As the story goes, the six cadets

refused to retreat and instead stood their ground, fighting to the bitter end. Juan Escutia, the last standing cadet, wrapped himself in the Mexican flag and leaped to his death, rather than allow the flag to fall into enemy hands. An unidentified US officer would later note that about 100 cadets between the ages of 10 and 19

were among the prisoners taken following the battle. The six Niños Eroes are identified as

Tlakatekatl (58:24.77)
Juan de la Barrera of Mexico City, Juan Escutia of Nayarit, Francisco Marquez of Jalisco, Agustín Melgar of Chihuahua, Fernando Montes de Oca of Azcapotzalco, and Vicente Suarez of Puebla.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (58:45.764)
Since 1847, the six cadets were the source of nationalist pride among the Mexican people who saw them as martyrs to the cause. In 1881, in Obelisk honoring their memory was built at the foot of the hill where Chapultepec Castle is located. And when it comes to constructing nationalist narratives, in Obelisk lacks the power and significance of a burial site. To rectify this,

The Mexican government ordered that the bodies of the Niños Héroes be located so that a more proper resting place could be constructed in their honor. But there was one problem. During the war, the bodies of the dead were quickly buried, often in mass graves. Despite the inability to properly identify which human remains were those of the cadets, six of the smaller skeletons were removed.

proclaimed to be the remains of the cadets and an imposing monument along with several public ceremonies were made in their honor. So there you have it. Another example of transforming human remains, whether authentic or not, into sacred relics of the nationalist cause. We will never know whose bodies were taken from the earth that day, but I certainly hope that whoever they are, they

along with the Nino Zerouas and all the other young men who died at that battle can someday rest in peace. Viva Mexico. So this one interested me because have you been to Chapultepec Castle?

Tlakatekatl (01:00:19.17)
Hmm. Que viva!

Tlakatekatl (01:00:29.125)
no I have not.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:00:30.254)
Yeah, it's massive. Well, first of all, Chapultepec Park is just like this impressive, like it's a forest in the middle of Mexico City. It's so massive and impressive. And you've got this hill that you have to make your way up, right? You could walk up it or you could like a shuttle will take you up or a tour bus or something. But once you get to the top, you get to this castle and each room is just.

Tlakatekatl (01:00:40.3)
Okay.

Tlakatekatl (01:00:49.986)
Mm-hmm.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:00:58.766)
filled with this unbelievable art. And I remember going from room to room like, my gosh, like just these super impressive murals and paintings. But the one that always sticks out in my mind is there's this room with like the ceiling, like Sistine Chapel style is of one of the Ninos Edo is of of Juan Escutia with the flag and he's

Tlakatekatl (01:01:25.774)
Mm-hmm.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:01:28.132)
Falling like down on you. So you're looking up at him as he falls down and he's holding the flag Yeah, and it just it gave me chills. I don't remember who painted it might have been Siqueiros, but I don't Honestly remember who painted that specific one, but it's a powerful image. So Understandable why they would want to to honor these these six cadets, right? but again

Tlakatekatl (01:01:32.622)
Hmm, that's his free falling

Tlakatekatl (01:01:46.318)
Yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:01:58.382)
The way that they went about it was just like, let's pull out some bodies. Yeah, just give us some bones and we'll create a monument. And now we've. Yeah. All to further this nationalist narrative. No, no, no, there there's like this. This monument and they're supposedly buried there, so you can't actually see the bones.

Tlakatekatl (01:02:01.336)
Just give me a bone. Any old bone will do, right?

Tlakatekatl (01:02:09.037)
Monument.

So are the bones exposed? Like can you see them like the way in Guerrero?

Tlakatekatl (01:02:25.166)
So no one really knows whether or not there's any actual bones there because you can't see them. So there could be no bones.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:02:30.274)
Yeah, I presume during the ceremony of, you know, they probably had some big ceremony where they lowered the, yeah, right? They probably lowered caskets, right? But yeah, like you said, who knows if anything, right?

Tlakatekatl (01:02:39.01)
picture sort of didn't happen that's what I say I mean

Tlakatekatl (01:02:46.914)
Who knows what's in there? We'll just say we have some bones there.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:02:53.252)
But you know, it's, what is it that you like to say it's a good story?

Better if true. Haven't you said that? I thought you said that. It does sound like something you could say.

Tlakatekatl (01:03:03.628)
I see that. Maybe. Sounds like something I've said.

Tlakatekatl (01:03:13.704)
story brought now.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:03:14.074)
So yeah, Los Niños Héroes. yeah, I thought it was important to say their names.

Tlakatekatl (01:03:24.814)
Say their name. Yep. Presente.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:03:25.018)
appropriately. But yeah, this whole

Tlakatekatl (01:03:29.742)
You know, speaking of saying names, one of the things that our buddy here in Calpulici, Fidelio here in Dallas at the last Dia de los Muertos ceremony mentioned, and it's something that maybe I knew, but I had forgotten, or maybe I didn't know, and that's why I maybe stuck out. like the idea, he was saying, like, for instance, in Dia de los Muertos, like we here, I don't know about Albuquerque or elsewhere, but like we have the tradition of

During the ceremony, for all the people in attendance, besides them bringing pictures of their loved ones to place in the altar, we also pass a paper around so they can write down the names of the deceased that we're going to be honoring that evening. And then at some point during the ceremony, after the bastones with the flowers have been completed, all, you know, someone will...

say the names of the people and then we'll say presente afterwards. And so what Iveli was saying was that the reason why we do it, and he was saying we as the Chicanos here in the US, he said, is because it is something that we learned during the Chicano movement as part of the revolutionary process of liberation and of honoring the people who had died for the cause or something to that effect.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:04:30.861)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (01:04:53.57)
And I was like, hey, you know, I don't know if I knew that, but that's pretty cool. And I don't know if it's true, but is that something that you've heard before? That the reason why we say presente, especially like during the Old Muertos, because he was making the distinction that apparently in Mexico they don't do that, which I'm not sure if they do or they don't. I just assume that they did. Again, going back to these assumptions, because we've always done it that way here. I just assume that it was the same way in Mexico, but I have no idea if that's what they do down there or not.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:04:57.646)
Mm-hmm.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:05:07.789)
Yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:05:14.83)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (01:05:22.434)
Do you know anything about this?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:05:23.15)
Yeah, I've, I don't. And, and it's interesting because I just sort of, you take that, you know, present there for granted, right? I did go to a Dia de los Muertos event years ago at the Raramuri Center where that was done. so it was done here. but what I, what's interesting is I found later when I was reading the, Taleriano Romances.

Tlakatekatl (01:05:31.841)
Right.

Tlakatekatl (01:05:41.889)
okay.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:05:52.634)
the codex, it describes part of the ceremony of Mikhail. Right. And I'm like, I don't remember if it's way Mikhail or Mikhail because there were two ceremonies. one of the things that was done is that you would go to your rooftop and you would shout the name of the deceased to the four directions. And I thought that was pretty bad ass. Like, wow. So like a version of that exists.

Tlakatekatl (01:05:52.696)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (01:06:02.581)
One of the two. Right.

Tlakatekatl (01:06:13.216)
Mm-hmm. Okay, okay. Huh. So it is an older tradition then. Okay. Yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:06:22.094)
You know, and it's fucking chicano's doing it.

Tlakatekatl (01:06:24.558)
Hey, we need to go, we need to talk about that for the next The Oldest Waterfalls episode. I'm gonna bring some of that up.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:06:29.23)
Yeah.

Absolutely. So there you go, folks. We hope you enjoyed this little bonus content about our history. And if you did, please tell your friends, you know, shoot us a even if they even if they don't subscribe, you know, give us a good review on on the podcast or just tell other people about us. know, every little thing is appreciated because we cannot do this work without.

Tlakatekatl (01:06:33.752)
get some of those things.

Tlakatekatl (01:06:54.222)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:07:00.94)
our listeners.

Tlakatekatl (01:07:02.35)
And also if you are a Patreon or a subscriber and you haven't joined the Discord, feel free to log on, create an account and join the conversation because we're always having very interesting conversations that sometimes it'll be like an extension of an episode, for instance, or sometimes we just have discussions about things that end up becoming episodes as well. And so if you're a supporter of the podcast and there's an episode

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:07:21.881)
Mm-hmm.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:07:27.449)
Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (01:07:30.999)
a certain topic that perhaps you think we should touch upon. You can always send a message to us directly. The email currently, what's the email that people can send those messages to?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:07:45.466)
Well, there is a Tales from Aslanthus at gmail.com.

Tlakatekatl (01:07:49.398)
Okay. And then you can also leave a message. And if you're using the, bus proud app, can, there's a way to leave a message directly there, whether it's on your phone or online. I'm not sure if you can do it through the Apple podcast or the, Spotify. I think in Spotify, there's also a way to leave, leave messages, but I'm not sure if it's connected with the bus route, but you can definitely leave messages on through, through a Spotify.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:08:00.25)
Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (01:08:18.676)
And also for those of you who are on the social medias, you might have noticed that we don't have a Twitter account anymore. least, tells from a slant is, I deleted that. That's the one that I was running. I deleted my account and I believe you deleted yours too as well. And, and the Facebook account that's still up, but, I was managing some of it and I think really still manages it, but I don't know how it was the last time you updated the Facebook account. it been recently or has it been a while?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:08:33.882)
Yep, I deleted mine as well.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:08:47.48)
It's been a long time. Mainly everything I do goes up on Instagram.

Tlakatekatl (01:08:49.058)
Yeah, so.

Instagram. Yeah. And so I've migrated to this other place called Blue Sky. Some of you might be familiar with it. Some of our Patreon supporters who are on Discord are also on Blue Sky. So I don't, we don't have a, from us on this Blue Sky, but we're getting ready to put one up. If Curly doesn't do it, I'll probably do it. But one of us will, will manage it. So we're going to have a presence on Blue Sky pretty soon.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:09:00.078)
Yep. I've been on there.

Tlakatekatl (01:09:21.05)
If not already by the time that this episode airs, we should have the blue sky and just look for Tales from Aslantes at blue sky. And you can always send us messages through that social media app and YouTube, right? We have full episodes on YouTube as well.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:09:39.364)
Yep, we've got our YouTube for sure.

Tlakatekatl (01:09:43.81)
YouTube and of course we have our store if you want to help us out and buy some merch.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:09:50.49)
shopostlantus.com

Tlakatekatl (01:09:53.154)
There you go, shopaztlantis.com awesome.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:09:59.162)
Until next time, dear listeners.

Tlakatekatl (01:10:01.944)
See ya.