Episode 77: The Miraculous Virgin of New Mexico!

What if I told you that there is an 18th-century painting of the Virgin Mary, armed with an Aztec weapon and surrounded by the bloody violence of the Pueblo Revolt, hanging in the New Mexico History Museum in Santa Fe? And that the Virgin herself had appeared to a 6-year-old little girl to give a warning about the revolt, and this image of the Virgin would later become known as "The Virgin of the Macana." In our latest episode, we delve into the mythology surrounding the origin of this image and explore its relevance to the Pueblo Revolt of 1680, as well as take a look at the presence of Mesoamerican warriors in Colonial New Mexico.

All this and more, on this episode of the Tales From Aztlantis podcast!

The Pueblo Revolt of 1680 was a pivotal moment in which the Pueblo people of New Mexico rose up against Spanish colonists, driving them out and securing their independence for 12 years. During the uprising, approximately 21 Franciscans and nearly 400 colonists lost their lives. Interestingly, no artists of that time ever bothered to memorialize this significant event in their work. It wasn’t until the later 18th-century that visual representations of the revolt began to emerge. One such image, a painting known as The Virgin of the Macana—is now housed in the New Mexico History Museum.

Your Hosts:

Kurly Tlapoyawa is an archaeologist, ethnohistorian, and filmmaker. His research covers Mesoamerica, the American Southwest, and the historical connections between the two regions. He is the author of numerous books and has presented lectures at the University of New Mexico, Harvard University, Yale University, San Diego State University, and numerous others. He most recently released his documentary short film "Guardians of the Purple Kingdom," and is a cultural consultant for Nickelodeon Animation Studios.
@kurlytlapoyawa

Ruben Arellano Tlakatekatl is a scholar, activist, and professor of history. His research explores Chicana/Chicano indigeneity, Mexican indigenist nationalism, and Coahuiltecan identity resurgence. Other areas of research include Aztlan (US Southwest), Anawak (Mesoamerica), and Native North America. He has presented and published widely on these topics and has taught courses at various institutions. He currently teaches history at Dallas College – Mountain View Campus.

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Transcript

Kurly Tlapoyawa (00:02)
Greetings, dear listeners, and welcome to Tales from Aztlantis where we take you on a journey through Chicano, Mexicano, and Mesoamerican history and archaeology, and we help combat the spread of disinformation about these very topics. We are your hosts, Kurly Tlapoyawa

Tlakatekatl (00:24)
And Ruben are you know, luck at the cut.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (00:27)
What is going on, Dr. Tlakatekatl out there in Tejaslan?

Tlakatekatl (00:32)
Yeah, know, just ⁓ trying to make it man, like everybody else, you know, just trying to survive this sea of non-stop. Kaka, it's coming our way.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (00:39)
that.

It's

endless. It's ridiculous. It's becoming exhausting. it's only like two months or three months or however long it's been. It like several years. It feels like a very long time.

Tlakatekatl (00:50)
Becoming it's been

What is it? I don't know. Yeah, it's like over three months at this point, but it's been an eternity.

gotta keep I

gotta use I gotta use the sauce here you know I got some some mr. president yeah

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:06)
What do you got there, sir?

Nice, nice.

I've got some good old Irish whiskey right here. Some of my favorite, some of my fave. Yeah. I know and unfortunately like when I get my DNA test back, I don't think there's any Irish, which I was kind of bummed out about because I like the Irish.

Tlakatekatl (01:15)
Well, the-

Digging into your roots, into your Irish roots.

that's kind of, yeah. I mean, if you're going to have, if

you're going to have any kind of whiteness in your, at least it'd be some cool whiteness, right?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:36)
Right?

At least be fucking cool, damn.

Tlakatekatl (01:40)
They're like...

Dang it.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (01:43)
well.

So. Yeah, for this episode we've been talking about doing for a while. And I remember it was several years ago I took you to Santa Fe to look at the painting that we're going to be talking about in this episode and that trip.

Tlakatekatl (02:03)
Yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (02:08)
sticks out in my mind, especially so because of who we bumped into while we were there walking around and we see Ruth Bader Ginsburg just like stroll by us. And we just kind of looked at each other like, wait, did that just happen? That was cool. And then of course I was like, man, I should go talk to her. But then she had like these massive.

Tlakatekatl (02:13)
Right.

Yeah, that was pretty crazy. I remember that.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (02:36)
Secret Service guys, I'm assuming they're Secret Service. I don't know who does their security. Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (02:36)
The bodyguards or some sort, whoever the Supreme

Court justices used ⁓ to protect them, that's who it was.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (02:47)
Yeah, there was a few around her. then when we went out, there was like a whole line of black sedans. I remember that parked outside of the museum. So, yeah, salute to a. Yeah, salute to Ruth, to RBG. Rest in peace.

Tlakatekatl (02:58)
Right.

those were simpler times, my friend.

Cheers.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (03:12)
Those were simpler times. But, you know, not to get off track, I've been looking forward to talking about this topic for a while because we've we've often wondered aloud to each other about Don Santos in New Mexico and this particular image and why there's no connection between the two. And. I think I discovered why in my research. ⁓

Tlakatekatl (03:37)
yeah?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (03:38)
Well, the main reason being I don't think they know about this image. And two, if they do know about the image, I don't think they actually know the roots of the image. And yeah, what it was meant to do.

Tlakatekatl (03:42)
Yeah, of course.

the history behind it.

I think when we first, you know,

I don't remember what episode it was that we talked about this briefly, but I think one of the things that maybe if I remember correctly that we talked about was that maybe the reason why they don't know or use the image, even those that might have heard of it is because they don't think it's part of the Vansa tradition because it's not from Mexico. Right. Like it's I mean, I think I think really that's what it is. Right. I mean,

Kurly Tlapoyawa (04:15)
That could be it.

Tlakatekatl (04:19)
But if you reframe it, Like if you reframe the Danza and say, well, you know, does everything have to be oriented towards, you know, the metropole, Mexico City, Tenochtitlan? Can it not be more localized? Can you not have sacred ceremonies and sacred? ⁓

Kurly Tlapoyawa (04:37)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (04:42)
dances and rituals that are more localized, even though the tradition might be influenced or imported from elsewhere. Can't you make it your own? Like, what's the big deal with that? Right. Does it, does it make it ⁓ less authentic if you, if you begin to change it up? I mean, who's, who's to say, right? I

Kurly Tlapoyawa (04:52)
Mm-hmm. That's.

Yeah, right, right. That's an

excellent point. And I want to, I want to get, yeah, I want to explore that later on in the episode. But before then, I just want to say that for this episode, dear listeners, I will be using the journal articles, The Virgin of the Makana, Emblem of a Franciscan predicament in New Spain by Alona Katsu.

Tlakatekatl (05:04)
Explore that.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (05:25)
published in 2003, and Nuestra Señora de la Macana by Frey Angelico Chavez, published in 1959 as my sources, as well as an article from the Smart History website titled The Virgin of the Macana and the Pueblo Revolution of 1680 by Dr. Emmanuel Ortega.

Tlakatekatl (05:51)
Smart history? I'm not familiar with smart history.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (05:53)
Yeah, it's Smart History.

Well, in the logo, the art part is like a different color. So it's art history, but like made smart, I guess. I don't know. It's a cool website, but it's all about art history. And I found this article on there and yeah, I poked around the website a bit and they got some good stuff.

Tlakatekatl (06:09)
Yeah, okay. I'm gonna check it out.

Dr. Emmanuel Ortega, now is Dr. Emmanuel Ortega from New Mexico?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (06:24)
You know what, I don't know, I didn't look into his bio. ⁓ Frey Angelico Chavez ⁓ certainly is or was from New Mexico. And Alona Katsu, I think she works at the LACMA. And yeah.

Tlakatekatl (06:32)
was in mexico yeah okay what about ilana katsu

really? You know,

cause her name does sound familiar. Ilana Ketsu.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (06:49)
I I turned that off. So the name of this episode is The Miraculous Virgin of New Mexico. And I'm not talking about myself ⁓ while in high school, okay?

Tlakatekatl (07:03)
It's a miracle.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (07:09)
The Pueblo Revolt of 1680 was a pivotal moment in which the Pueblo people of New Mexico rose up against Spanish colonists, driving them out and securing their independence for 12 years. During the uprising, approximately 21 Franciscans and nearly 400 colonists lost their lives. Interestingly, no artists of that time ever bothered to memorialize this significant event.

in their work. It wasn't until the later 18th century that visual representations of the revolt began to emerge. One such image, a painting known as the Virgin of the Macana, is now housed in the New Mexico History Museum. And we can confirm that because we went and looked at it. Interestingly, only a handful of paintings of the Virgin of the Macana exist.

Tlakatekatl (08:01)
You sure did.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (08:08)
all dating from the latter half of the 18th century. Each of these paintings exhibit similar iconography. The Virgin Mary is depicted as a crowned statue bleeding from a small wound on her forehead and holding a macana or macuahuit, a wooden weapon adorned with obsidian blades commonly used by the indigenous people of central Mexico. She is prominently positioned in the center of the composition.

standing stoically as the chaos of the Pueblo revolt unfolds around her. Following the Spanish invasion of the Americas, images of the Virgin Mary, Jesus, and various saints were introduced to the colonies. A popular genre of religious artwork was known as statue paintings. As the name suggests, these paintings depicted statues, such as the Virgin of Toledo or

Nuestra Señora del Sagrario de Toledo, which was brought to New Spain by Franciscan missionaries. Revered as their protector, Mary accompanied the missionaries as they established missions and sought to convert indigenous peoples. In the painting held in the New Mexico History Museum, Mary is positioned centrally, flanked by two kneeling

figures, a Franciscan friar in a blue habit on the left and an Indigenous man wearing a headdress and loincloth on the right. He holds a macana for support. The backdrop illustrates the chaos of battle, with natives on the left hurling stones from towers while Spanish soldiers shoot guns. Below, an Indigenous man raises his macana to strike a friar.

while wounded or slain Franciscans pierced by arrows lay scattered. This imagery presents the Puebloans as barbarians, quote unquote, attacking unarmed friars. To the right, Spanish forces retaliate, charging on horseback while firing their weapons. The Pueblo people are depicted assaulting the Virgin of Toledo statue, and in the upper right, a native man is shown.

hanging from a tree. Above this scene of violence, God the Father and the Holy Spirit are framed by clouds. I love the idea of just like God chilling watching this. It's like he's watching Game of Thrones at home or something. Just taking in all the bloodshed. When the Spaniards established Santa Fe in 1607, the Franciscans were tasked with converting the Pueblo people to Christianity.

This religious order, which had been active in New Spain since the early conquests of central Mexico, aimed to eradicate what they deemed as satanic native idolatry and uphold Christianity as the true faith. Paintings like the Virgin of the Macana, which depict natives attacking a representation of Mary, illustrate how colonizers framed indigenous resistance as a literal assault on their religion.

thus further justifying their colonization efforts. Under the Franciscans, Pueblo traditions faced systematic suppression. Noncompliance with Spanish prohibitions on ceremonial dances often resulted in harsh punishment, and many sacred sites and objects were destroyed. Spanish accounts from this period emphasize native resistance to colonial authority while downplaying the violence and oppression.

inflicted upon indigenous peoples. speaking of the violent oppression of indigenous people, I thought it would be pertinent to take a moment to talk about a little something known as the requerimiento. I don't even know if I'm saying that right. Did I pronounce that right? The, yeah, right? The requerimiento or requirement was written in 1510 by Spain's council of Castile.

Tlakatekatl (12:12)
It's a move.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (12:23)
to be read aloud to Indigenous people during Spanish conquests in the Americas. It claimed that the Pope had authority over the entire world and had given Spain control over the Americas, except for Brazil, in a 1493 decree. The document told Indigenous people that they had to accept Spanish rule and Christianity or face being conquered, enslaved, or killed.

Often it was read in Latin without translators or even shouted from ships to empty beaches, showing that it was mainly meant to justify Spanish actions and provide moral and legal justification for Spanish conquest. Like what performative nonsense, right? To read this aloud to like an empty beach. It's just, or to read it in Latin to people who have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

The last two paragraphs of the requerimiento or requirement describes to the native communities what would happen to them should they agree to the terms laid out in the speech and what to expect should they refuse Christian rule. It reads.

Tlakatekatl (13:42)
If you do so, you will do well, in that which you are obliged to do their highnesses. And we in their name shall receive you in all love and charity, and shall leave you, your wives and your children and your lands, free without servitude, that you may do with them and with yourselves freely that which you like and think best. And they shall not compel you to turn Christians, unless you yourselves, when informed of the truth,

should wish to be converted to our holy Catholic faith as almost all inhabitants of the rest of the islands have done. And besides this, their Highnesses award you many privileges and exemptions and will grant you many benefits. But if you do not do this, and maliciously make delay in it, I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter into your country

and shall make war against you in all ways and manners that we can, and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church and of their Highnesses. We shall take you and your wives and your children and shall make slaves of them, and as such shall sell and dispose of them as their Highnesses may command. And we shall take away your goods and shall do you all the mischief and damage that we can.

as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their Lord and resist and contradict Him. And we protest that the deaths and losses which shall accrue from this are your fault, and not that of their Highnesses or ours, nor of these Cavaliers who come with us. And that we have said this to you and made this requisition, we request the notary here present to give us his testimony in writing.

and we ask the rest who are present that they should be witnesses of this requisition.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (15:43)
It's so fucked up.

Tlakatekatl (15:46)
Well, you know, it's interesting that this comes up in this episode. One of the primary sources that I use in my first half of American history, 1301, it's always this is the one that I begin with. I tell I show students, right? Like, what is the purpose of this? Like you said, it's performative, right? It's part of the way that the Spanish and then later on other European nations are going to try to sort of mimic this and

Kurly Tlapoyawa (16:00)
Really nice.

Tlakatekatl (16:16)
and do the same thing. But the whole point of this is that they're trying to cover their butts with this because it's a legal process that they're doing. They're saying that we're doing this legally. We have ⁓ we've received permission from their highnesses through the pope and we have a notary public. Right. So from the very beginning, the Europeans come to the Americas and in their process of ⁓ colonizing and

Kurly Tlapoyawa (16:23)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (16:44)
conquering and enslaving people, they're using the quote unquote, the legal system to do it, right? And so we've got this piece of paper here that we brought with us and we gave you an option and we gave you a choice. Now, whatever happens from this point forward, it's in your hands.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (16:50)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Yeah, and if you refuse, we're gonna do all this horrible shit to you. And by the way, it's your fault.

Tlakatekatl (17:07)
Exactly. It's your fault. You know, blame

the victim.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (17:12)
Absolutely. So the emergence of the Virgin of the Macana. A manuscript written shortly after the Pueblo Revolt provides essential insights into the iconography of paintings depicting the Virgin of the Macana and how they reflect the Franciscan viewpoint of these events. Franciscan friar Augustine de Vetencourt chronicled the origins of the Virgin of the Macana.

in his 1698 work, Teatro Mexicano. Vetenkort's account was based on funeral, sorry. Vetenkort's account was based on funeral orations honoring fallen Franciscans and historical narratives from Spanish soldiers. Later, 18th century artists would reference Vetenkort's writings when creating their own representations of this Marian figure.

Wettenkurt documented that a replica of the Virgin of Toledo statue was brought to New Mexico by Franciscans after conquistador Juan de Oñate invaded the area in 1598. The statue served as both a protective emblem for the missionaries and a sign of Spain's divine favor and might embodied by the presence of the Virgin Mary. He recounted a miraculous event.

that occurred shortly before the Pueblo revolt. The Virgin of Toledo reportedly appeared to the six-year-old daughter of the Spanish governor, healing her of an ailment and delivering a message. She instructed the girl to inform her father and other colonial leaders to treat the Franciscans better as tensions between the missionaries and colonial authorities were escalating. The Virgin warned

that failure to improve their actions would lead to divine retribution. She allegedly said,

think you're muted.

Tlakatekatl (19:27)
Raise thyself, child, and tell that this province will soon be destroyed for the lack of reverence that it shows my priests, and that this miracle will be the testimony of this truth, that they mend their ways should they not want to experience punishment. Wow. It's dramatic.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (19:48)
A little heavy for a six-year-old like you would think the Virgin Mary would have a little more tact when talking to a child. This apparition was meant as a warning to the colonial government, but it went unheeded. Colonial authorities continued to provoke the Franciscans, and more importantly, the oppression of the Pueblo people persisted, culminating.

Tlakatekatl (19:56)
right.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (20:15)
in the Pueblo Revolt six years later. Tradition holds that during the revolt, a native warrior struck the forehead of the statue with a macana, hoping to smash it to pieces, but only managing to chip off a small piece from the forehead. From the Spanish perspective, the statue's survival was seen as nothing short of miraculous, especially since churches and other Christian images were destroyed.

Paintings of the Virgin of the Makana highlight this moment with the visible wound on the statue serving as a reminder of this miraculous occurrence. This act of violence symbolically transformed the Virgin of Toledo statue into the Virgin of the Makana. A small Makana was fashioned and placed in the statue's hands, and the pronounced wound on its forehead represented native aggression.

and more significantly, the Christian victory over demonic barbarism. The weapon that had once been wielded by the natives became a powerful Christian symbol, justifying the Spanish subjugation of indigenous peoples and their perceived idolatry. After the revolt, the statue was moved to Mexico City and eventually placed in the main Franciscan convent of San Francisco after 1754.

where it continues to be revered today, though it is likely not the original statue. In depictions of the Virgin of the Makana, indigenous people are shown attacking and killing Franciscans. From the Franciscan perspective, these friars were portrayed as martyrs, sacrificing themselves for their Christian faith. Paintings such as the one currently displayed in the New Mexico History Museum illustrate this martyrdom process.

and align with the Franciscan narrative that these deaths paralleled Christ's sacrifice at the hands of pagan Romans. Images of the Virgin of the Macana were designed for a Franciscan audience, serving as powerful affirmations of the Franciscan mission to convert native peoples during a time when Spanish administrators believed that the religious order was failing. This context clarifies

why an event from the late 17th century became a significant subject for artists in the later 18th century. It also elucidates why there are fewer paintings of the Virgin of the Macana compared to other miraculous Marian apparitions such as the Virgin of Guadalupe.

The narrative of the Virgin of the Makana served a specific Franciscan agenda. In the paintings of the Virgin of the Makana, two types of indigenous individuals are depicted. The violent aggressors who killed the Franciscans and the devout indigenous figures kneeling before the Virgin Mary, signifying a transformation from their violent tendencies. Wettenkurt's account claims that Satan

persuaded the Pueblo people to partake in the violent uprising. In other scenes, violent barbarians motivated by unholy desires attack both the Franciscans and the Marian statue. The devil himself is depicted in the painting, holding the rope from which a native man is hanged, even as the devil is understood to have incited the revolt.

Tlakatekatl (24:05)
This weird.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (24:07)
That is weird. And what's also

weird is like the Virgin Mary appeared and was like, this is going to happen as a warning. And then they try to blame it on Satan when it happens.

Tlakatekatl (24:14)
Yeah.

I'm just the messenger.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (24:24)
Very odd stuff. The hanged man is represented as the individual who struck the Virgin statue in the scene directly below. In colonial Spanish-American art, the barbarian, quote unquote, was typically depicted as half naked, roaming rural landscapes, and in need of spiritual salvation. From early 16th century maps and prints of the Americas, illustrating bands of naked cannibals,

to 18th century Casta paintings depicting nomadic tribes on the fringes of the empire, the iconography of the uncivilized barbarian remained prevalent throughout colonial visual culture. One aspect of these paintings did evolve over time, the locations where natives were depicted. In the early 1500s, images of indigenous people were often situated in regions like central Mexico.

where Spaniards had defeated the powerful Mexica empire. Representations of barbarians were enriched and detailed renderings of local flora, geography, and fauna. Following the success of the Pueblo revolt, artists began to portray natives on the fringes of the Spanish empire in Texas, New Mexico, and California.

These artworks served as visual evidence of the necessity for stricter colonial governance in these areas. In the Virgin of the Makana, the miraculous intervention of the Virgin Mary transforms the uncivilized violent native into a subdued individual converted to Christianity, symbolized by the native men kneeling beside her in the foreground.

quote unquote, devout Indian became a recurring motif throughout the 300 years of Spanish dominance in the Americas intended to illustrate the successful conversion of indigenous peoples. The depiction of native peoples before and after their Christian conversion underscores the power of the Virgin's intervention during the Pueblo revolt and by extension, the efficacy.

of the Franciscan mission system in New Mexico. So if I, I mean, I am a don santa, but if I were like a Catholic, one of these heathen dons this and I knew this history, I wouldn't use love you. And the Lamacana either, like even as a Catholic, I would look at this and be like, well, the whole

Tlakatekatl (26:53)
Hmm.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (27:17)
The way that this image is used is to depict us as savages in need of being saved. I just wouldn't, as a non-Catholic, so I can't even relate to it as a Catholic, right? Like I can't even put myself in that head space to be like, well, why don't we use this image in the Donsa tradition?

Tlakatekatl (27:39)
Well, what makes it

so different from the Virgin Mary and Juan Diego? I mean, he was an indigenous man who supposedly, you know, was approached by the Virgin, the hill of Tepeyacac. I mean, was he not in need of... Was he already a Christian Indian at that point?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (27:53)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's the story, right? That he was on his way to ⁓ go pray. Yeah, let's get that out of the way.

Tlakatekatl (28:01)
So that's the story, right? mean, like, we don't believe any of this is true. First of all, let's go ahead and get that out of the way. Like

the story is completely made up whole cloth, right? But, you know, according to the story's narrative, like was he already a Christianized indigenous man or Juan Diego, right?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (28:22)
Juan Diego?

Yeah, he was supposed to have already been a Christian. Like, he was on his way to go pray when the Virgin appeared.

Tlakatekatl (28:26)
converted

to go pray. Okay, so then it would make sense for

Dan Santas to like, I mean, I don't think there's ever hardly any mention of Juan Diego in Lanzan, but like the Virgin, right? Like the Virgen de Guadalupe, she's supposed to be the representation of Donansin and of course, we're not talking about Coatlicue, but just Donansin as the mother, right? Mother ⁓ Teteo. One of the...

Kurly Tlapoyawa (28:43)
yeah.

Tlakatekatl (28:59)
Or the prefix for all the females that they'lls. Well, not all of them, but a majority of them happen to be a mother type figure, Right.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (29:03)
Yeah, yeah, the title. Yeah, like female creation type

figures would be venerated as a tonantzin.

Tlakatekatl (29:14)
Right.

And so that's not a good example to contrast, I guess, La Virgen de la Magala within a danza tradition. Is there a different, like some other indigenous tradition that we know of that is closely associated with the virgin that has some kind of ritual, some kind of danza associated with it? Because there's that other one, the virgin, and I wish she wasn't a virgin, she was a...

Kurly Tlapoyawa (29:24)
Yeah.

Well, there's remedios. ⁓

Tlakatekatl (29:48)
I'm thinking of the

lady in blue. Remember we had a brief discussion about them, but she wasn't a virgin. She was an actual nun or a sister, whatever. Right. She was, she was in, ⁓ back in, in Europe somewhere and she was the supposedly trans locating to the Americas prior to the, the, of the, the indigenous peoples along the border and like in Texas and along the Rio Grande like up and ask, is it astral projection or translocation?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (29:53)
yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

like astral projection style.

Tlakatekatl (30:18)
Is it the same thing? I don't even know.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (30:20)
I think it's the same thing, I don't know.

Tlakatekatl (30:22)
But she was supposedly appearing to them and talking to them about Jesus. And so the story is that when the Spaniards first arrived, among the Cado people and other people in South Texas, that they had already been primed by this lady who had appeared to them in blue about the, not necessarily about the Spanish coming, but that they had heard of Jesus already, right? Like this.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (30:49)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (30:50)
They had been primed, like, look at this. They're ready to accept the word of God. How convenient. So that's not a good example either. I mean, I'm trying to think, what's another good example here for the love of God?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (31:01)
Well, I think this

one is so unique in that it is, it's like directly tied to violence and like an indigenous revolt. And so it makes it hard to compare it to other Virgin traditions or Marian traditions. But what gets me about it is that, so they, cause we've seen the painting and the thing that struck me the most about the painting when I saw it the first time is that you have like this

image of the Virgin Mary holding a macaw in her hand. that like I was like, Whoa, what the hell is this? And so then I started like looking into it. What's that?

Tlakatekatl (31:34)
Right.

Was it a painting? Because I want to say we

looked at an actual statue. Was it a painting or a statue? Because I remember we're seeing a statue. So it was a painting of a statue.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (31:47)
It was a painting. It was the painting.

The painting of the statue.

Tlakatekatl (31:53)
So like this is before camera, to disseminate the imagery of various saints and virgins, they would have, instead of painting just like the Virgin in situ, they would paint the statue? That's weird. What do you think that's weird?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (32:09)
Yeah, they would paint the statue with the event

happening behind it. Yeah, it is weird, but we're also sane people.

Tlakatekatl (32:17)
Why not just paint the virgin in a scene,

you're, like you're, I don't know, like painting the statue. That's so strange. Okay.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (32:26)
Yeah. Well, I know that here in New Mexico, there are some Santeros and painters who have created depictions of La Virgen de la Macana. And I've thought about getting one just to like have it in the house because it has such an interesting story behind it.

Tlakatekatl (32:35)
Uh-huh.

Yeah.

That's what's

missing because I'm looking at your background and you have all the, you know, you have your bookshelves filled with books and you have that emotionally up at the top. And I'm thinking he needs, there's something missing. I think that's what it is. I think you need the Vigilante de la Macana front and center up there.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (33:03)
There you go. Except like, ⁓ I doubt any, I could commission anyone to do it, but do like a subversive, you know, version of it. That'd be pretty cool.

Tlakatekatl (33:14)
You mean there's no subversive

Santeros in New Mexico?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (33:18)
I'm sure there are, but I don't know any. If you're out there, hit me up. Yeah, I might have a commission for you. But yeah, this this image and. You know, to just tie to the to the Pueblo revolt holding a macaw week. In her hand and.

Tlakatekatl (33:20)
Yeah.

Yeah, there might be a commission your way.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (33:43)
Then of course, you know, they say like the original, the actual statue was taken to Mexico. And I think that might be one of the reasons why it's not so well known here in New Mexico is that they took the actual statue and they keep it somewhere else because as Catholic as this state is, you would think that a story of a Marian apparition happening in colonial New Mexico.

Like everybody would know that story, right? And that this image would be like all over the place. It would almost be like a freaking, ⁓ one of the symbols of the state, know? Like a, right? Like a, like, what's the word that I'm looking for? A mascot. know, like.

Tlakatekatl (34:22)
It should be on the flag, the state flag.

So like, so

you know how in the Chicano movement, know, Chavez started the tradition of using the weed hand because it's a very recognizable symbol of ⁓ humility, being humble, being of the people, being pious and religious. And it's a recognizable symbol for Mexicans. So he took that right for the, for his, for the farm worker movement. And then the broader movement at large in some areas also kind of adopted it, right? Cause it's very iconic and you can't.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (34:38)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (35:00)
You can't mistake it for anything else. So I'm wondering how come in New Mexico the Chicanos there didn't take La Vacana Virgin and proper up in their banners? Yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (35:02)
Yeah.

make it a symbol of like resistance and like subvert

the image and turn it into one of local resistance.

Tlakatekatl (35:17)
There

you go, maybe that needs to be you. I leave it upon you, my friend. Hey, because it's, mean, yeah, it's a virgin and it's tied to Catholicism, but she's got a Makana in her hands. Right? So she's got the Makua weakness. She's ready to fight, fight, fight.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (35:20)
Maybe

She's holding the makwawi. ⁓

Fight, fight. Next time we see each other, I'll have a tattoo on my back. Full, full body piece.

Tlakatekatl (35:40)
There you go. That's what I'm, that's the spirit. That's what I'm talking about, brother.

Don't fake the funk, homie.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (35:49)
Well, for those of you who are premium members, you're going to be getting an entire extra segment to this episode in our premium feed where we will be talking about the indigenous Mexicans who were present at the Pueblo revolt. So wasn't just the Makwawit that was there. There was some, some native Mexicans there too. If you are not a premium member, please consider becoming one. Just follow the link in the show notes.

And for a mere five bucks a month, $5 a month, you will get ad free episodes, bonus content and access to our discord server where you can interact with us and other fans of the show. And I got to tell you, I've really been enjoying the discord server. Like it's, nice to, to like be able to pull away from social media and all the noise there and just have like a more concentrated, like, okay, here's some people that I, I can talk to.

Tlakatekatl (36:33)
Yeah. ⁓

Kurly Tlapoyawa (36:48)
and we could have conversations there without all the noise, you know.

Tlakatekatl (36:49)
Right.

And

speaking of the Discord server and the conversations we're having on that channel, some of the things that we post are current events, news items that relate to Mesoamerican things, Chicano things. And some of the things that I've posted recently is, ⁓ real briefly, I'll just pop off some of the article titles. The Willy Chavarria X Adidas Originals SS25 collection is unapologetically Chicano. This is from Hype.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (37:01)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (37:21)
blast. So Willie Chavarria, you don't know who he is, he's a Chicano fashionista. And he was recently featured in some shows. I think it was in Paris, if I'm not mistaken. And then recently at the Met Gala, like he designed like the really cool zoot suit for an artist named Maluma or something to that effect from Central South America. But he apparently also partnered with Adidas of all.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (37:40)
He did some zoot suits, right? Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (37:50)
⁓ brands and he's got this cool collection. And one of things that I want to give for myself is this cool sweatshirt that says Chicano in the front. And it's got like that black. It's kind of like a, it's not exactly like the farm worker ego speaking of farm workers, but it's, kind of ⁓ reminiscent of it. And it is. So that's one thing that we, we kind of discuss on the discord, just giving our listeners to taste if they want to join the discourse. Those of you that are.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (38:07)
Yeah, it's reminiscent. That's a cool image. I'm glad you posted that.

Tlakatekatl (38:19)
Thinking about becoming premium members, some of the other things that we discussed, for instance, there's this article from The Prospector, which is ⁓ the University of El Paso, I mean, of Texas at El Paso. This is a student newspaper called The Prospector. They have an article that was ⁓ published recently entitled From Pics to Fists Up. And if you don't know anything about El Paso, they're known as the... ⁓

Their mascot is like this minor, right? And so he's always holding like this axe, pickaxe, right? And so it's called From Picks Up to Fists Up, Movimiento, Chucanex, and the New Generation of Chicanismo. And so Chucanex is a mashing of two words. have Chicano ⁓ or Chicanx.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (38:49)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (39:08)
And then Chuko, El Chuko, El Paso has been known as El Chuko for a very long time because in case you don't know, speaking of zoot zoots, the Pachuco style originated in El Paso. so for a long time among the Chicanada, El Paso is referred to as El Chuko short for Pachuco. And so they have a cool article about ⁓ a professor there at

at UTip who started ⁓ a Chicano club called Chucanex Movimiento. ⁓ she is, her name is, let me see, let me put on my readers for this one, tiny font here. Her name is Ruby Montana, a lecturer in the Department of Chicano Studies and Languages, Linguistics and Humanities at UTip. And she established the Chicano Studies Club, which takes the name Movimiento Chucanex, a nod

to the original movement as well as El Paso's unique culture. So big shout out to, I believe she's Dr. Montana, ⁓ Professor Montana at UTEP and to all the students who are part of this. Congratulations on getting this ball rolling out there. And also I need to send a shout out if you don't mind to some people out in El Paso when I was there as a visiting scholar before the pandemic here hit that year 2019.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (40:06)
Dope. Yeah.

Go for it.

Tlakatekatl (40:31)
2018 to 2019. so Dr. Miguel Juarez, he's a fan of the show. I'm not sure if he still listens, but he was a listener early on me and him. We did a podcast when I was out there. And we hit on local issues pertinent to the border into El Paso. And also to Dr. David Romo, David Romo, who is a local historian also from UTEP.

And he's published a couple of books on the local history of El Paso related to the Chicano-Mexicano community and to his wife, Lejia, who was, I believe, I'm not sure she's already attained her PhD, but she was in the PhD program over at UTIP when I was there. So big shout out to them. And last but not least, also, I wanted to mention that ⁓ over in Denver, at the Denver Art Museum, they're having a ⁓

a reception, opening reception on the day that this episode goes live on May 13th. So that's Tuesday from 5 p.m. to 7 30. And it's called Chicano Humanities and Art Council Community Spotlight opening reception where they're going to be highlighting Chicano artists from the Denver area. So, you know, this is just to give you a little taste of the sort of things that we talk about on the discord. You know, we talk about now what we talk about.

Chicanismo, Chicanidad, Mesoamerican issues, also Native America at large. So if you're currently a premium member and haven't signed up for the Discord, we highly encourage you to do so. And if you're not a premium member, if this doesn't entice you to become a member, I don't know what will.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (42:05)
Yeah.

now.

And with that, until next time, remember, the truth is like medicine. It doesn't always taste good, but it is always good for you.

Now for our premium members, we're going to get started with some extended content that all you free listeners don't get. The Mexicans of the Pueblo Revolt. For the bonus section of this episode, I want to address a question that many have asked me. How did a Macana or Makwawitl end up in New Mexico in the first place? Well, the answer is simple.

When the Spanish colonization of what is now New Mexico and Southern Colorado took place, they brought with them thousands of Mesoamerican warriors to handle most of the fighting. These forces included Mexica, Tlaxcalteca, Otomi, and Purepecha warriors. ⁓ These Mesoamerican warriors always outnumbered their Spanish counterparts, sometimes by three to one.

Like, for example, we know that during the Coronado ⁓ entrada or whatever you want to call it, the Coronado expedition, Mesoamericans comprised like a full three quarters of the forces that were brought up. So that's a lot of people.

Tlakatekatl (43:45)
That is, that's a lot.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (43:47)
And of the few hundred Spanish men at arms who went on these expeditions, most of them were not professional soldiers, which meant that they were usually not trained and they definitely did not have experience in combat. Suffice it to say, most of the fighting was carried out by Mexican Indians, not Spanish forces. A point that I find really interesting,

is the Spanish adoption of what are known as Armas de la Tierra or indigenous weapons instead of the cumbersome European metal swords and lances. And this doesn't exclusively include indigenous weapons. Like sometimes the Spaniards would take the weapons they had with them and modify them to to fit in to.

with the local traditions. It's like a fascinating part of history that not a lot of people talk about.

Tlakatekatl (44:44)
Well, you know, if I may interject real quickly, I have a colleague who was at SMU when I was there. believe he graduated like maybe a year or two before I did because he was already there when I entered. Yes, he was like a year ahead of me. He's from Monterrey. Luis. Oh, man, I'm blanking on his last name. He's going to. I don't know if he's listening to. I know he's a premium number, but he's I think it was Rodriguez. I want to say.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (45:11)
Hahaha

Tlakatekatl (45:14)
⁓ and, anyway, so he wrote a book called Frontera Armada or something to that effect. And it was published in Mexico, it's in Spanish. And he goes into this, like he like investigates how, at least along the, the, what is now the Texas, you know, Coahuila, Tamaulipas border, ⁓ at that time when the Spanish were first, you know, coming up into those areas, they had adopted, ⁓ a lot of the armor and the

Kurly Tlapoyawa (45:25)
Really?

Tlakatekatl (45:43)
the weaponry of indigenous societies because they realized, first of all, they didn't have the required materials necessary to replace and to fix their weapons from Europe all the time, especially if they were on the frontier zone, right? Because they were so far away from the metropole, from Mexico City. And second of all, they realized that they were better in terms of ⁓ maneuverability and lighter and even

Kurly Tlapoyawa (45:45)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, they were lighter, more breathable.

Tlakatekatl (46:13)
And even like, for instance, the armor, instead of the heavy metal armor that the, quote unquote, conquistadors wore, like they could, adopted the cotton armor of Mesoamerican societies because they realized that it was very good to protect against like, especially arrows and, you know.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (46:23)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, indigenous armor

would defend against indigenous arrows. Like who would have thought?

Tlakatekatl (46:35)
Yeah, right.

And so it's so if anyone's interested, it's called Frontera Armada by Luis Garcia So I wanted to interject that. Yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (46:46)
I'm gonna have to pick that up.

No, no, no problem. It just feeds right into the next line. The Spanish invaders discovered pretty early on that wearing metal armor, helmets, swords, and other weapons was a logistical and physical nightmare in humid tropics and sun scorched deserts. To deal with this, the Spanish adopted

Tlakatekatl (47:10)
There you go.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (47:14)
Mesoamerican weapons such as the makwawit or makana and the ishka whipili or cotton armor jackets of native warriors. This stands in stark contrast to the New Mexico fantasy cosplay, which imagines droves of Spaniards arriving in glistening armor and funny shaped helmets brandishing their swords. In reality, the colonizing forces

Tlakatekatl (47:21)
Hmm.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (47:43)
more closely resembled a traditional army from central Mexico. I argue that the so-called Spanish colonization of New Mexico would be far better described as a Spanish Mesoamerican colonization. It is also worth noting that hundreds of Mexican Indian women known as tortilleras accompanied these forces. They were responsible for feeding the men

Tlakatekatl (47:59)
Mm-hmm.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (48:13)
and caring for the animals. So just like think about it, the logistics of these massive armies. So with Coronado, they think there was like three to 400 Spaniards or men at arms and like two to 3000 Mesoamerican warriors. And then you've got horses, you've got animals, you've got livestock. You know, who's going to take care of these animals and who's going to feed all of these, these men?

Tlakatekatl (48:41)
Yeah, like the camp followers,

right? I mean, that's what the

Kurly Tlapoyawa (48:44)
Yeah,

yeah. mean, just the supply line logistics of that alone necessitates that all of these women were there. And Michelle and I were just visiting this site here in New Mexico called the Piedras Marcada site, where a massive battle took place between Mesoamerican and Pueblo people. And ⁓ the head archaeologist there, Matt Schrader, ⁓ great guy. I want to get him on the show. He

He brought this up that there were all these tortillas who accompanied the men and that they're almost completely left out of the historical record. So shout out. Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (49:25)
Tortilleras that's that's a pretty

cool. I mean who cut who call them tortillas. Where does that come from? Do you know?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (49:31)
Tortilleras, it's in the Spanish documents.

Tlakatekatl (49:33)
So

the Spanish themselves call them mas tortilleras. Interesting.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (49:37)
Yeah.

Yeah. So I've been asked if these indigenous forces were primarily slaves taken by force and made to fight on behalf of the Spanish, which is kind of like a nice way of fantasizing about it, right? Like, well, my ancestors didn't come up willingly and do all these horrible things in combat, but I don't think that this would be logistically possible. Thousands.

Tlakatekatl (49:57)
Yeah, right.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (50:06)
of combat hardened Mexica warriors would have made short work of a few hundred untrained Spanish hayseeds. Like just the logistics of having 2000 warrior slaves and there's like a couple of hundred of you and only half of you know how to fight. That doesn't seem like it would end well, but mainly, you know, the Spaniards were pretty obsessed with keeping documents of who was who in their company and

Tlakatekatl (50:26)
Right.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (50:36)
the historical record refers to these Mesoamerican auxiliaries not as slaves, but they refer to them as Indios Amigos. So that's a title that doesn't really denote, you know, slave status. Unfortunately, yeah, Indian friends are friendly Indians. Unfortunately, historical records on the Indios Amigos are scant, but

Tlakatekatl (50:45)
Goodbye friends.

So friendly Indians.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (51:05)
If you dig deep enough and comb through the archives like an obsessive little lunatic like I am, you find evidence everywhere. One such piece of evidence is the letter written by then governor Antonio de Otermin that details the events of the Pueblo revolt of 1680. According to Otermin, the attack came as a complete surprise, as it was

Tlakatekatl (51:34)
Totally contrary to the existing peace and tranquility in this miserable kingdom, not only among the Spaniards and natives, but even on the part of the heathen enemy.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (51:46)
That's such a weird quote.

Tlakatekatl (51:48)
right.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (51:50)
So I wanted to pull some excerpts from this letter that Othar Min wrote describing the events of the Pueblo revolt. I pulled four paragraphs and I thought it would work best if I read a paragraph, then you read a paragraph. We just switched.

Tlakatekatl (52:05)
Well, hold on before

we go there. One of the things that I tell my students is that when you're going to quote something in your paper, you have to follow up with an explanation of why you use that quote. for anyone who might have missed the point of this quote, what is it that you want people to know about this quote?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (52:21)
Mm-hmm.

Sure. Otermin is just like a way of claiming like, we had no idea that this rebellion was gonna happen. You know, we thought everything was cool because even to, and then like, it's a judgment right there. Like even on the, even the heathen enemy wouldn't resort to such a devious act as to attack us without us knowing, you know, and. ⁓

it caused this insurrection. And it comes up later that in the writings of where they blamed it was the devil, like the devil instigated the heathen Indians to rise up against the Spanish.

Tlakatekatl (53:10)
Hmm. Okay.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (53:14)
And I love that he calls it a miserable kingdom.

Tlakatekatl (53:16)
Mm-hmm.

Got it.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (53:23)
So the letter reads in part on Tuesday the 13th of the fed month, which is imagine how I imagine him speaking, but it would be in Spanish anyway. So at about nine o'clock in the morning, the came inside of us in the suburb of Analco, which is one of the oldest colonial colonial barrios in New Mexico. And it has a Nahuatl name, which means on the other side of the river. But I digress in the cultivated field.

Tlakatekatl (53:32)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (53:51)
of the hermitage of San Miguel, and on the other side of the river from the Vía, all the Indians of the Tano's and Pecos Nations and the carries of San Marcos armed and giving war whoops. As I learned that one of the Indians who was leading them was from the Vía and had gone to join them shortly before, I sent some soldiers to summon him and tell him on my behalf that he could come to see me in entire safety.

so that I might ascertain from him the purpose for which they were coming. Upon receiving this message, he came to where I was, and since he was known, as I say, I asked him how it was that he had gone crazy too. Being an Indian who spoke our language was so intelligent and had lived all his life in the Villa among the Spaniards, where I had placed such confidence in him and was now coming as a leader of the Indian rebels.

He replied to me that they had elected him as their captain and that they were carrying two banners, one white and the other red. I think this is kind of bad ass and that the white one signifies peace and the red one war. Thus, if we wished to choose the white, it must be upon our agreeing to leave the country. And if we chose the red, we must perish because the rebels were numerous.

Tlakatekatl (55:00)
Hmm.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (55:19)
and we were very few. There was no alternative in as much as they had killed so many religious and Spaniards. And I love the way he frames that because he's like, I can't believe how brutal they are. They're giving us this choice. It's like motherfuckers, you know, referring back to the requerimiento, they used to go in and do the same bullshit.

Tlakatekatl (55:38)
Yeah. Hey, but in his defense, the requerimiento at that point

hadn't been used in at least a couple of centuries. So yeah.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (55:48)
Yeah, but

they, he, I'm sure he'd read it.

Tlakatekatl (55:51)
I don't

know. I think the requerimiento gets a lot of flak for the wording in it. But ⁓ in all honesty, think that after the great debate about whether or not Indigenous people had a soul that still kind of early on in the colonial period, in the exploratory period, I think that that document gets abandoned. So it's used for maybe a decade.

So like from, I want to say possibly from like 1500 to like 1520, perhaps like, you know, a couple decades at most.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (56:31)
Mm-hmm.

Well, they're getting

off light here because this wasn't even a requirement. They were just giving them a choice. You guys could leave or you could stay here and die.

Tlakatekatl (56:37)
Right.

Alright, so this is the same letter, right? Okay, so it continues. On hearing this reply, I spoke to him very persuasively to the effect that he had and the rest of his followers were Catholic Christians, asking how they expected to live without the religious and said that even though they had committed so many atrocities, still there was a remedy.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (56:47)
Mm-hmm.

Tlakatekatl (57:09)
for if they would return to obedience to his majesty, they would be pardoned, and that thus he should go back to his people and tell them in my name all that had been said to him, and persuade them to agree to it, and to withdraw from where they were, and that he was to advise me of what they might reply. He came back from thee after a short time, saying that his people asked,

that all classes of Indians who were in our power be given up to them, both those in the service of the Spaniards and those of the Mexican nation of that suburb of Analco. He demanded also that his wife and children be given up to him, and likewise that all the Apache men and women whom the Spaniards had captured in war be turned over to them, inasmuch as some Apaches who were among them were asking for them.

If these things were not done, they would declare war immediately and they were unwilling to leave the place where they were because they were awaiting the Tawas, Perqueris and Tewas nations with whose aid they would destroy us. Is Perqueris here meaning the Pikuris? Pikuris? Yeah, okay. That's an interesting way of spelling it.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (58:23)
It must be Pico deez. Yeah.

Seeing his determination and what they demanded of us, and especially the fact that it was untrue that there were any Apaches among them because they were at war with all of them and that these parlays were intended solely to obtain his wife and children and to gain time for the arrival of the other rebellious nations to join them and besiege us, and that during this time they were robbing and sacking what was in the said hermitage.

and the houses of the Mexicans. I told him, having given him all the preceding admonitions as a Christian and a Catholic, to return to his people and say to them that unless they immediately desisted from sacking the houses and dispersed, I would send to drive them away from there, whereupon he went back and his people received him with peals of bells and trumpets, giving loud shouts in signs of war.

I wonder what these trumpets were. I wonder if they were conch shells. Yeah.

Tlakatekatl (59:30)
At the Cocolis?

Maybe? With this scene after a short time that they not only did not cease the pillage, but were advancing toward the villa with shamelessness and mockery, I ordered all soldiers to go out and attack them until they succeeded in dislodging them from that place. Advancing for this purpose, they joined battle, killing some at the first encounter.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (59:34)
Maybe.

Tlakatekatl (1:00:00)
Finding themselves repulsed, they took shelter and fortified themselves in the said hermitage and houses of the Mexicans, from which they defended themselves as part of the day with the firearms that they had and with arrows. We having set fire to some of the houses in which they were, thus having them surrounded and at this point perishing, there appeared on the road from Tezucay a band of the people whom they were awaiting who were all Tewas.

Thus, was necessary to go to prevent these latter from passing on to the villa, because the Casas Reales were poorly defended. Whereupon the Sedanos and Pecos fled to the mountains, and the two parties joined together, sleeping that night in the Sierra of the Villa. Many of the rebels remained dead and wounded, and our men retired to the Casas Reales, with one soldier killed and the

Maese de Campo, Francisco Gomez, and some 14 or 15 soldiers wounded, to attend to them and entrench and fortify ourselves as best we could.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (1:01:11)
So I've always, mean, the letter is really long, but I find these paragraphs fascinating because it makes specific mention to the Mexican nation of that suburb of Analco. So, and we know that Nahuatl was being spoken in New Mexico at the time by all these people that they were bringing up. I could just imagine this like multi-ethnic,

Tlakatekatl (1:01:14)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (1:01:40)
gathered like I couldn't I can't even imagine what it must have looked like right you have all these Europeans but then you have like now what speaking natives and then you've got all the Pueblo people speaking you know ⁓ Teo and Tewa and Toa and Caris and and just this this mixture of cultures like it just sucks that it was violence that that ⁓ was the impetus.

Tlakatekatl (1:01:52)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (1:02:08)
for

bringing all these people together because that's such a fascinating ⁓ gathering of people. And they make reference to the Mexicans, right? The houses of the Mexicans, like two more times. So it's like there, it's in the historical record, but you have to poke and prod and well, you know how it is. You sit there and you just...

Tlakatekatl (1:02:33)
Mm-hmm.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (1:02:36)
go through and go through and you're looking for stuff and when you finally find stuff, you're like, all right, cool. Here's another piece of that puzzle that that we've been trying to crack because this is, you know, a firsthand account giving testimony to the presence of these Nahuatl speaking mercenaries who lived in the body of an alcohol in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Yeah, yeah.

Tlakatekatl (1:02:56)
Right. They weren't slaves as, as I think that's the point, right? That you've been

trying to say that these people weren't necessarily slaves, that they were there on a mission. And I'm sure that they were being compensated to a certain degree, either, I don't know about monetarily, maybe to some point, but maybe with the promises of land and, tenure and leadership and positions of power and things like that. Right.

Kurly Tlapoyawa (1:03:19)
Mm-hmm. Yeah,

and and even if we if we analyze this sentence here You know, he says that all all classes of Indians who were in our power be given up to them both those in the service of the Spaniards and Those of the Mexican nation of the suburb of Analco So it was they were already making this distinction between natives

who were in their power, who were in the service of the Spaniards, and those who had their own barrio, their own community, the suburb of Analco, who were there living not as slaves, but as active participants. ⁓

Tlakatekatl (1:03:56)
December with an alcohol.

So can we say that this is the first official gathering of the nations?

Kurly Tlapoyawa (1:04:10)
You

Goddamn.

Wong, Wong, Wong. And with that, folks. Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed this bonus content.

Tlakatekatl (1:04:25)
Mmm, I'm gonna go home.

BD, BD, BD.

I hope so too.