Shekerah Primus 0:08
This is the journey. This is the journey. Welcome back to "We Love Science" podcast. This is the journey episode. Here, our guest star shares more about their discovery of science, and how mentors and experiences shaped who they are today. To hear more about the work associated with this journey, please check out the previous episode. Welcome back to another episode of "We Love Science" podcast. We are your hosts. I'm Shekerah.
Fatu Badiane-Markey 0:40
And I'm Fatu.
Shekerah Primus 0:41
Our guest today is Dr. Caroline Bartman. So Caroline, we like to start the journey segment, way back in the beginning, whatever age the beginning might be for you.
So can you please tell us if you had a science spark or any science wow moments growing up that really drew you to it?
Caroline Bartman 1:07
Absolutely. So I was not into science growing up full disclosure. So So if anyone else was not in science, that's okay. I support you. I I just felt like science like especially in like elementary school and middle school was like a lot of like memorizing like these are the types of clouds which is like fine and great, but it didn't sieze like my joy until I got to college and they started explaining like, how can we use experiments to kind of like solve scientific puzzles.
Shekerah Primus 1:49
So you didn't actually start loving science until college? Yes, really?
Caroline Bartman 1:55
I'm a late bloomer. Yeah,
Shekerah Primus 2:00
That's really interesting. So what about like, science fairs and things growing up? We have a lot of guests who talk about that. Did you do any of that?
Caroline Bartman 2:09
Um, okay, I did one. It was a huge failure. I wanted to know like, which soap made bubbles that last the longest.
Shekerah Primus 2:21
Oh my god, that is a great question. I feel like people need to know these things.
Caroline Bartman 2:26
But the problem was the answer was dish detergent. But I made one bubble and it lasted so long, guys, that I got bored. And I walked away and started reading a book and the bubble popped and I missed my time point
Shekerah Primus 2:46
What did you do? Did you just make up time?
Caroline Bartman 2:50
I think I wrote like so long it was unmeasureable
Fatu Badiane-Markey 2:53
Oh my God I love it.
Caroline Bartman 2:56
I'm not a very good science
Shekerah Primus 3:02
Unmeasurable time. It lastes forever.
Okay, so you got into science in college. Can you tell us a little bit about how your career plans evolved, then, throughout the younger part of your life? Like what did you want to be in middle school in high school?
Caroline Bartman 3:25
Great question. What did I want to be? Oh, I really wanted to work in the United Nations and create world peace.
Shekerah Primus 3:35
Very cool.
Fatu Badiane-Markey 3:38
Oh create world peace. I love it. Don't we need that!
Shekerah Primus 3:41
Very ambitious!
We need more people saying I want to create world peace.
Caroline Bartman 3:47
Well, I gave up so.
Shekerah Primus 3:55
Very cool. Okay, so can you tell us about, you told us about your little science experiment when you were younger. But what was your first like real research experience that you had?
Caroline Bartman 4:07
For sure. Yeah. I was looking for a job after freshman year of college. And I so, I grew up in Washington, DC. So I was able to find a job at the National Institutes of Health. In the lab of [Dr.] Chun. And so the ridiculous thing about this is he didn't have an extra desk. In lab. So he just put me inside his office. And I have never been in a lab before or seen a lab. I thought this was normal. And so I sat at this table all day. I would just ask him questions, and be like, "what's a cytokine?" and like, presumably, he was like, trying to actually do work. But I would just like talk to him all day long. And he like was so patient with me. It's unbelievable. So that really, I loved it.
Shekerah Primus 5:03
Amazing. So you had such a close relationship with this PI, your very first research experience. Great. For most of us, it's like you work with a grad student or you work with the postdoc or you work with some senior like person in the lab but not not really the PI, right.
Caroline Bartman 5:20
Yeah, unfortunately for him a lot of time together.
Shekerah Primus 5:27
Maybe he enjoyed it as well. Right. So okay, that's very cool. So you were working on cytokines
Caroline Bartman 5:35
Working on HIV, in fact.
Shekerah Primus 5:36
Ah I see I see
Interesting. And so what did you discover.
Caroline Bartman 5:41
Ha! Nothing.
Fatu Badiane-Markey 5:45
Early days, you know how those experiments go.
Caroline Bartman 5:49
It was more just like learning to do PCR. Yeah.
Shekerah Primus 5:55
Cool. Cool. But that first research experience stuck with you and you you liked science from then. Cool. And when did you actually decide that you wanted to become a scientist?
Caroline Bartman 6:08
Yeah, I think it was actually after that first summer job. So I actually had a good friend from high school who was in the lab down the hall, like also doing a summer job there. And at the end of the summer, she was like a very like, outspoken person. And she was like, wow, well, she I really liked my PI, but I would never do that for a job; and I was thinking, I was like, I actually I kind of liked it. I could do that as a job. That would be nice.
Shekerah Primus 6:46
That is really cool!
I love that. I love that that happened that your little science nerd reared it's head like no, I love this. This was me. That's awesome. Those feelings when you get it right. Yes, I could do this. I want to do this. I love it. Okay, cool. So you decided that's pretty early when you say you wanted to be a scientist.
Caroline Bartman 6:49
However, I also Yeah. So I decided I wanted to be a scientist, but I thought I was really behind because I was like an international studies major. And I wasn't taking like the chemistry course. And I was really worried. I was like I have only one summer of lab experience. I haven't taken general chemistry. So I went back to school and I was like, oh, no, I'm already behind. So for the rest of undergrad, I felt like I was trying to catch up. And in a way I think this was a misperception like I think I had plenty of time. I think this does happen to people, like I had never heard of grad school. I didn't know you could be paid to go to grad school. Like a lot of people get to college and they don't know how academia works. So like, I yeah, I want those people to feel supported. And like they know the option is out there. Even if they didn't start freshman year knowing that was the path they wanted.
Shekerah Primus 8:14
Yeah, cool. Yeah, I'm the same way I did not know that, you know, I could just go to grad school from from undergrad. That wasn't even on my radar to like become a scientist. You know, I was like, I was gonna become a doctor. You know, like, a medical doctor. And then that changed. So yeah, you definitely figure things out in college which is just what college is for, isn't it? Excellent. So can you tell us if you've had any influential mentorships along the way?
Caroline Bartman 8:47
Yeah, I would say all my mentors have been really great. Um, so after I did that summer internship, I joined a lab at University of Chicago, my undergrad, and Marissa Allegri, my, PI., You know, I felt like I was behind. I felt like I didn't know enough science and she always felt, made me feel, like I was valued as a part of the lab, even though I was an undergrad. And often my experiments didn't work. But you know, she, like had that vibe where she believed in me, she was like, of course, you can go to grad school. And, like, at that time, that meant so much to me, you know, if she had not been supportive that way, I would have been like, you know, forget it. It's not gonna happen. So she was just so great.
Shekerah Primus 9:38
Excellent.
Fatu Badiane-Markey 9:39
She really made the difference?
Caroline Bartman 9:41
For sure.
Shekerah Primus 9:44
Cool.
So considering your journey, and where you are now and what you've been through what advice would you give to young Caroline?
Caroline Bartman 9:56
Great question. Um, so, I think there are a lot of things that you learn over the long training process that is science. Um, one thing that I, that really helped me, is one reason I also felt like I could never go to grad school is I'm like really bad at experiments you guys. Like some people have golden hands. I am not that person. Things do not work for me that well; but initially, I was so worried, but you don't; if you practice a technique over time, you get better at it. You get good enough to like be getting by even if you aren't like the most amazing person. And as long as you're like strategic about your experiments, like you can still make it work. So that's one thing. And another thing that's been really helpful to me, is like thinking about what time of day is best for you. So I am not; I'm a morning person. So if I try to do a challenging task at 7pm, like it is never gonna happen. And once I realized that, because when I started grad school, I was like, I'm going for it. I'm gonna pull all nighters. But then no, I have not a person like once it gets to 9pm I'm like, no longer productive. I'm getting tired, I'm wasting time. No work is getting done. So like, just go to bed.
Shekerah Primus 11:32
That's cool. Yeah, I agree. Figuring out what time of day is best for you is so important. Like for me, it's the complete opposite like my brain turns on at night. It's funny, and it's like, I'm up all day. And so I'm tired, but then my brain is like, now, I want to give you ideas. Fatu you know what it's like, you've experienced this. And I'm like, Oh my God. It's like gone and like doing stuff. So it's interesting. So I was definitely one of those who was in lab very late at night. Because that's when things worked. So I feel very cool.
Fatu Badiane-Markey 12:08
I'm definitely more of a morning person myself. I always like to get up early before anyone got there. And just enjoy like the quiet, you know, like not having anyone around and setting up my experiments. And all that before everyone got in. Yeah, cuz definitely, by the end of the day ish. I'm just like, I'm done. You know, it's just like, yeah.
Shekerah Primus 12:36
Cool, so important to figure that out about yourself. I agree. So looking back, is there anything that you would do differently
Caroline Bartman 12:46
Hmm. You know, well, this is probably a cliche, right? But taking programming classes, like is pretty useful. I didn't really and I had to kind of like learn some programming on the fly, but it's useful. Like any type of data, it's useful to be able to like analyze it in R or Python. And you don't have to learn that much because you can Google a lot of things. Like if you just know enough to make it workable, then it can be a useful tool.
Shekerah Primus 13:24
Yeah, I agree. That is actually really great advice. And I don't think it's a cliche at all because, I don't believe, we haven't heard it so far. Right? That's a brand new one. Yeah. And I agree. That's great advice. Excellent. So last question in this segment. When you visualize your successful self, just close your eyes and visualize successful Caroline. What does that picture look like? Describe that picture for us?
Caroline Bartman 13:52
Yeah. This one was one I thought about for a while because it's like, oh, what do I dream of? I mean, you know, starting my new lab, I really want to do you know, like exciting, rigorous science, but I think the really key thing is to do it with colleagues and lab members who are like happy and feel supported, like no matter their identity, and they're like happy and excited to come to lab, to do exciting science. So that is my dream.
Shekerah Primus 14:27
Cool. So you want to create that environment for future scientists and for your lab in general?
Caroline Bartman 14:34
Yep.
Shekerah Primus 14:34
Excellent. I love it. Thank you so much, so Fatu. Do you have any additional questions for the segment?
Fatu Badiane-Markey 14:42
So when you were at the NIH as a young student, even though you're kind of sitting in the office doing experiments that didn't exactly work, do you have any kind of like, memory of what changed within you to make you kind of you like think oh this could be fun? You know, it's not working for me right now, but it can be fun.
Caroline Bartman 15:13
Yeah, yeah. Why did I enjoy it, even though it was going horribly? I think science is like a really interesting combination of like, it's intellectually challenging. It's like, there's a lot of book learning, but it's also very applied, right? It's like you can read a protocol and then you like do the protocol and you see the color change, or you like find a drug that can treat a disease. So it has like a really cool balance for me of it's like, challenging and stimulating intellectually, but it also like, has applications in the real world.
Fatu Badiane-Markey 15:53
I think that's really cool that you also picked up on that, I feel, at such a younger age; I don't think I would have like made that connection. You know? Yeah, so that I think that's really insightful.
Caroline Bartman 16:10
I think also, yeah, being in an HIV lab, we were always focused on like, you know, like, we have great drugs, but there's no cure for the disease, right? We're always trying to think about like, what can be that next step, even what we're doing, you know, a PCR like that thought is in the labs.
Fatu Badiane-Markey 16:31
So I guess maybe one more question that I have, and this is, I guess, a little bit more broad maybe, and goes back to your research focus. So, do you do any, I guess, like, clinical work or translational work right now in your research or is it primarily models, some models, to really understand the mechanisms you study?
Caroline Bartman 17:04
Yeah, great question. So right now, we're mostly doing work studying mouse metabolism. However, the assays that we do are basically using like heavy non radioactive metabolites and measuring where they go, like how organs metabolize them. And you can do these studies in humans because those labeled metabolites are not toxic. So I'm really hoping in like the five to 10 year plan to make friends with an MD and like, do these type of things like say someone gets a flu vaccine, then a day later, like take out their blood cells and measure their metabolism?
Shekerah Primus 17:49
Very cool.
Fatu Badiane-Markey 17:58
And now we're going to go to the last segment, life lights, and that is, you know, really thinking about what what brings you joy; you know, thinking about hobbies, passions, projects, who you spend time with, and how do you like to relax and what else brings you light and enjoyment to your life?
Caroline Bartman 18:28
Great question. Um, so something I really love is reading, especially science fiction and fantasy. Yeah, I'm really into this English author. His name is John Wyndham. I'm reading this book about like, [magic] that leads to like, super long lifespan and then how everyone in society gets really upset and like tries to fight for this like medical power of life
Shekerah Primus 19:00
Awesome.
Caroline Bartman 19:02
So Oh, go ahead.
Fatu Badiane-Markey 19:04
What's your favorite place to read? Do you like to read at home? Do you like to read out?
Caroline Bartman 19:09
Oh my gosh. Well, now that the weather is getting nicer finally, I really like to go to parks in Philly and just like sit outside and read.
Fatu Badiane-Markey 19:18
Philly has a lot of good parks. Anything else you want to add to that?
Caroline Bartman 19:24
Oh, yes. Yeah, I also really like to run and peloton. Those are good ones. And then yeah, spend time with my husband. Spend time with my sister, family. So.
Fatu Badiane-Markey 19:38
Thank you again, Caroline, we look forward to following up with you in the future. To hear more about the next phase of your journey. Once your lab is you know, like well established at UPENN we will be coming back around and you know, hearing about all the amazing things that you're doing. And you know, once again, you can reach Caroline; I will put the information in the show notes. You know, definitely if you are interested in any research experience, I'm sure she will be super open to hearing from you. So make sure to reach out.
Caroline Bartman 20:18
Please do Yes.
Shekerah Primus 20:21
So are you looking for, are you going to take undergrads, high school students? I mean, how, how, like early in the process, do you think you will accept people into your lab?
Caroline Bartman 20:33
Great question. Yeah, my impression is you know, to work with mice you have to be post high school, but undergrads for sure would be awesome.
Shekerah Primus 20:43
Okay, so can a high school student join your lab and not work with mice? Right. There's a lot of like bench work
Caroline Bartman 20:49
We could find things for them to do
There's always something to do in a lab. You guys no problem.
Fatu Badiane-Markey 21:06
There's always something to do.
Shekerah Primus 21:09
Excellent. So if they're interested, you know, they have the drive the motivation they want to learn; come to Caroline. Excellent. Thank you again so much to our wonderful guest, Caroline Bartman. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your work and your story with us. We really appreciate it.
Caroline Bartman 21:29
Thank you so much for having me.
Shekerah Primus 21:32
Okay, so we'd like to say thank you to our listeners. For supporting the podcast. If you enjoyed this episode. Please subscribe, like, and share. And you can reach out to us by email at love science podcast@gmail.com. Please send any questions for past guests, comments about the show, or suggestions for guests that you'd like to hear on the show. We'd love to hear from you. Until next time!
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