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Our conversation with Dr. Clarice Aiello continues! In the beginning, Clarice actually didn’t have a passion for science; she was a big reader and had little interest in math and related subjects. She originally wanted to be a journalist and when she didn’t get into a journalism program, engineering became her plan B. That is how she discovered her love of physics. As an engineering student, Clarice met an amazing mentor who took her under his wing and introduced her to quantum mechanics–a truly life changing moment. “Nothing is linear; you end up where you end up. That’s very scary and that is also the beauty of it,” Clarice explains as she reflects on the many detours and turns she has had in her career journey to become a quantum biologist. One of the biggest challenges facing the field of quantum biology, however, is the lack of acceptance as a legitimate field from other researchers within the biological sciences. Clarice explains how she is working with her colleagues to build out the field from the ground up; and one day she hopes that others will also see the vision of future discoveries that can come from understanding the intersection of biology and quantum engineering. Being a pioneer can be a lonely path, but someone has to do it! Listen to the episode, to learn more about Clarice’s journey and the emerging field of quantum biology.
For more information visit our website: welovesciencepodcast.com
Reach out to Clarice:
Email - cla@g.ucla.edu
And read her recent article - It’s Time to Take Quantum Biology Research Seriously
And if you are interested in quantum biology, check out the book Life on the Edge: The Coming of Age of Quantum Biology by Johnjoe McFadden and Jim Al-Khalili
Reach out to Fatu:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/fatubm
Twitter: @fatu_bm
and LoveSciencePodcast@gmail.com
Reach out to Shekerah:
www.linkedin.com/in/shekerah-primus
and LoveSciencePodcast@gmail.com
Music by TimMoor from Pixabay: Future Artificial Intelligence Technology 130
Music by ScottHolmesMusic https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Scott_Holmes
Reach out to Fatu:
www.linkedin.com/in/fatubm
Twitter: @thee_fatu_b
and LoveSciencePodcast@gmail.com
Reach out to Shekerah:
www.linkedin.com/in/shekerah-primus
and LoveSciencePodcast@gmail.com
Music from Pixabay: Future Artificial Intelligence Technology 130 by TimMoor
Music from https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Scott_Holmes: Hotshot by ScottHolmesMusic
Welcome back to We Love Science Podcast, this is the Journey Episode. Here our guest star shares more about their discovery of science and how mentors and experiences shaped who they are today. To hear more about the work associated with this journey, please check out the previous episode.
Shekerah Primus 0:13
Clarice, thank you again so much for chatting with us about your work. You do really amazing work. The sci fi part of my brain was really lighting up with the possibility for using quantum mechanics in the future and so I really look forward to see how that develops. So we are going to jump into the journey segment now. And, we like to start with, did you have a science spark or any science wow moments when you were growing up?
Clarice Aiello 0:41
No, no and I'm so excited to say that. Because so many people think in order to become a scientist you need to have been passionate about science since age three or something like that. Growing up, I'm an only child so I was a very quiet kid. And I read a lot; mostly I read. And I was not specially interested in math or science. Actually, my my love for reading and writing actually is paying off now because a lot of my job now is science communication--is writing articles, or writing grants, giving presentations, organizing my ideas. But I, almost by chance, I went into a, I started university for engineering. So a couple of things: I applied for a career in journalism. I didn't get accepted, but I got accepted at the engineering school, so I started there. I always liked physics more than engineering. But in Brazil, there's not a lot of money for basic science. So all the money, all the best labs like teaching labs, were in the engineering school, and that's why I applied for an engineering school. And, there I discovered a love for especially physics. I was very lucky, because in the beginning of the 2000s, there was a lot of. Today it's like, commonplace; there was like this big word like globalization. So my school in Brazil was starting to have a lot of different exchange, student exchange programs, and I applied for one of those, and I was accepted to finish my degree in France. In France because there was a lot more resources, I could study physics. So this is how I came into this. And it's crazy how one person can really change your career. When I was a first year engineering student, I liked physics. So I went and knocked on the door of like a physics professor saying like, can I help? And as a starting undergraduate student, you cannot do much. This one physics professor. He basically took me under his wing, and he said, Let's teach you some quantum mechanics. Again, he didn't have anything to gain from that. I was using up his time. I wasn't being productive in any sort of way. In a utilitarian way, he changed my life. You can never be grateful enough for those, the generosity of those people who step in and change your life. So Fernando Brando [sp?] if you're there listening to this, thank you.
Fatu Badiane Markey 4:21
I love that. Yeah,
Shekerah Primus 4:24
That was a great mentorship experience. It's always amazing, right, how much people are willing to give, right. Sometimes you're just like, oh my god, you're so generous and so amazing, and you change my life. And those people are really important and just gems in all of our lives. So was that your first research experience in his lab or was he just teaching you quantum physics?
Clarice Aiello 4:48
It was more of a learning experience where it was the first time I talked to someone who did research. Even though I couldn't. He was doing hardcore, theoretical physics research that I don't now understand. I'm an experimentalist. I could glance a little bit at how he did research; how he lived his life as a researcher, so I think that was important, too.
Fatu Badiane Markey 5:23
How did your career plans have evolved during your journey? So for example, what did you want to be when you're in middle school, in high school, undergrad, and then finally graduate school?
Clarice Aiello 5:34
Oh, growing up I wanted to be a writer, a journalist. And anything that has to do with words. I took solace in the in the written word, and I still do. And again, I think it's important for the people in the audience, right, to realize that there is no single path anywhere. If in the end we tell a story that is very linear, We're faking it. We're faking it. Nothing linear, everything has so many detours and you end up, where you end up. That's very scary. And maybe that's also the beauty of it.
Fatu Badiane Markey 6:22
Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. It's like as you know, thinking about your love of reading and love of words, you know, and how it was kind of like, out of your control, but also a little bit fate that you applied to journalism and engineering, and then it's like, engineering, and then you know, you enjoy it and you get an introduction into the physics. I think that's pretty delightful. So it's like, you never know where things are going to take you. So that's pretty exciting.
Clarice Aiello 6:52
And the same thing for how I discovered quantum biology. I was not looking for quantum effects in biology, I was looking for a solution to my very particular problem at hand, that I was right. And then I found this whole field, and they said, after many, many years, I could say, like, this is what I want to do. And sometimes it takes so long to happen, and sometimes it doesn't, so everyone's path is different
Fatu Badiane Markey 7:23
I agree with that. I agree with that. Considering your journey, what advice would you give your younger self?
Clarice Aiello 7:31
It will get worse before it gets better. And I would also tell people to remain curious. So I think there's a wealth of knowledge at the interface of sciences. So if you like chemistry, keep being curious about how chemistry can be applied in say a material science. Right? If you'd like something, keep curious about how your subject of expertise might be related to something else completely out of your, of your, focus. I think that in the years to come interdisciplinary research is going to be the thing that moves like big problems forward; it means engaging with a lot of people; and if I may, let me make a pitch for what I call quantum literacy. When I was growing up, the only people who learned how to computer code were people who entered say, engineering fields or physics, physics fields. Right now 20 years later for the educationally privileged people are learning how to computer code in middle school. So I think there's an understanding that computer code can help you no matter what your feild is. I think about linguists who computer code, speech patterns or something like that. I think there's a case to be made that computer code is important, regardless of what you do professionally. I think that the same is going to happen in quantum physics. We already live in a quantum world. Like lasers, magnetic resonance, imagers, your laptop. They're all powered because of the laws of quantum mechanics. I truly think and hope that in the future. Everyone will have some, a little bit of quantum literacy so that we can already better understand the world we're living in already. Think about ways where quantum might be at play, like a nuisance. It might have macroscopic effects in things ranging from biology, to chemistry to material science, technologies and so forth.
Fatu Badiane Markey 10:10
Yeah, I really like that. I really, really like that. I think that's really good advice. So looking back, is there anything you would do differently? Or if you could do it all again? Anything that you would change?
Clarice Aiello 10:24
Hind sight is 20-20, right. I don't know. If that helps. Again, nothing related to that. I wish I were better in math, I'm not very good in math. Maybe I should have applied myself more in math. I also would learn how to be more diplomatic. I'm not very diplomatic. I need to be more political. Work in progress
Fatu Badiane Markey 11:05
I think that's all fair. I think those are very good like reflections on on where you fit in. They're different for all of us. So for the last question in the journey section when you visualize your successful self, what does that picture look like? You know, for talking 5, 10 years, what does that look like for you?
Clarice Aiello 11:29
So, I think part of the hat that Iwear apart from the researcher hat, has to do with legitimizing the field of quantum biology, making sure that. So right now, there's a lot of stigma related to quantum biology. 90% of quantum biology flavors have to do with electromagnetics in biology. Electromagnetics in biology, is a taboo in the West. Research in electromagnetics in biology have never stopped in Japan, Russia and China. But in the west, it's usually related to, people think about new age like telepathic communication, people wearing like magnetic bracelets. So there's a lot of baggage that prevents this from from being taken as a serious feild. Hence, the name of my APS opinion piece called. "It's time to take quantum biology seriously." It's part of my job, I think is to make this field legitimate, because I have skin in the game. I want to compete for grants, be on equal footing with other people. I want to be able to recruit top talent, which I have. I really like working with my people; I hand picked them. Because they understand the vision. Scientifically, I really think again, as of right now as Shekerah said its science fiction, but I really think that at some point in the next two decades, we should be able to have a nap on our phone, that we can we can tune in to help us with like remote treatment of a lot of things that are based on weak magnetic fields. Right now totally science fiction right now. But research needs to be started. And that's what we're doing.
Fatu Badiane Markey 13:28
I feel like you know when you're a pioneer, right? That's always the hardest part is really building everything from the ground up. So we're sending you a lot of courage, Clarice. It's not something everyone can do, right? I think it really takes a lot to kind of like be the first one in your field. But given that there's already so much research in other parts of the world. I hope that that will you know they really encourage people.
Clarice Aiello 13:57
Can I have one pet peeve of mine because it's relevant to what you asked me about like being in woman. So whenever people like what I do, they say invariably, I like her enthusiasm. And I am so mad at that. And men usually are called visionaries. I like to vision and I think that to me, it's like I always liked your enthusiasm and I think like enthusiasm is not as
Fatu Badiane Markey 14:36
It's not the same.
Speaker 1 14:36
It's not the same. It's like good effort. Which is sort of, I am butchering her name, but do you know, Katalin Kariko.
Fatu Badiane Markey 14:51
Yes. mRNA Yeah, right.
Clarice Aiello 14:54
Am I pronoucing her name correctly?
Fatu Badiane Markey 14:56
I believe so, apologies!
Clarice Aiello 15:00
Again, hers is a very common, again--immigrant, very, like rightfully stubborn in her science. She has never been recognized by the academic community. She was effectively ostracized until 2020. So if you've gone to her wikipedia page, she doesn't have any recognition. And since 2020, because of the COVID vaccine, now. Now she's received more than like 80 prizes. It's a long time for one to suffer alone and go through alone in their beliefs. Right. So how many Katalin Kariko's are we missing just because we're not calling these people visionaries?
Fatu Badiane Markey 15:48
You're right, you're right. I think that's a really, really great point, a really great point. So, Clarice for our last section. We want to know what brings you joy outside of work. This is what we call life lights. And I want you to think about any hobbies, passion projects, what you like to do with your family and friends, how you like to relax; what really brings you light and enjoyment in your life?
Clarice Aiello 16:14
First of all, I read. Right now Netflix and co are taking too much of my time. But my primary passion is reading. And I also like learning languages again. The word for for, for dictionary in German is like "worterbuch", which is like the treasure, a treasure of words. So I really like words, and learning languages gives me insight in how people live. So I, my best friends don't live in the US. One lives in Norway, the other one in Brazil. So I talk a lot to them and their kids with Skype. And finally I get joy from, I have some some resident squirrels in my balcony. I used to have one, now there's three different ones, each with their personalities. I like when they come and eat out of my hand. Of course they're utilitarian. They only show up when I give them food. I appreciate this insight into their wild life.
Fatu Badiane Markey 17:39
Yes, that's lovely Clarice. I feel like squirrels are interesting characters. Definitely. Thank you again, Clarice. We look forward to following up with you in the future and hearing about the next phase of your journey. And once again if you would like to reach out to Clarice we'll provide all of her contact information for you. And we'll also provide a link to that article so that you can also you know, I guess get a little bit of quantum literacy right. If you start your own adventures in the field and on that note, we'd like to thank our listeners for supporting the podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, like and share. And you can reach out to us by email at LoveScience podcast@gmail.com. Until next time, bye folks!
Clarice Aiello 18:32
Can I just say that you folks are awesome. What you are doing is an awesome service to the community and people like like you inspire me to keep on going.
Fatu Badiane Markey 18:48
We love that. I'm sorry we had so many like technical challenges, Shekerah's listening on the other end, but we can't hear her. So, you know, we both really thank you for for coming on and reaching out; it's really great having you. We enjoyed our conversation. And we'll let you know when this is ready to go public so you can share it wherever you want. I think that'll be a really nice treat for people to discover quantum biology. Something totally new to me. So I think we both learned a lot.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai