Welcome to “Agility Unleashed”, brought to you by Sage – a series of podcasts which helps Britain’s businesses pick their way out of the pandemic. Each week we look from the past to the future through the eyes of a single business function; with advice from real businesses and technology experts. This week it’s the Chief Operating Officer or COO.
The COO isn’t just the Chief Executive’s right hand person – the COO’s job is to keep the train on the tracks. They turn ideas and strategies into a scaled up operation – and they make business-as-usual happen every day. So when a crisis comes along and business-as-usual doesn’t happen every day, it’s the COO who steps up. Remote working? Refactoring production lines? Changing business models or just dealing with complexity? Our chief Operating Officer deals with it all; and in this show, we’ll find out how and what’s next.
Welcome to “Agility Unleashed”, brought to you by Sage – a series of podcasts which helps Britain’s businesses pick their way out of the pandemic. Each week we look from the past to the future through the eyes of a single business function; with advice from real businesses and technology experts. This week it’s the Chief Operating Officer or COO.
The COO isn’t just the Chief Executive’s right hand person – the COO’s job is to keep the train on the tracks. They turn ideas and strategies into a scaled up operation – and they make business-as-usual happen every day. So when a crisis comes along and business-as-usual doesn’t happen every day, it’s the COO who steps up. Remote working? Refactoring production lines? Changing business models or just dealing with complexity? Our chief Operating Officer deals with it all; and in this show, we’ll find out how and what’s next.
AGILITY UNLEASHED BY SAGE – THE COO
NICK INTRO
Welcome to “Agility Unleashed”, brought to you by Sage – a series of podcasts which helps Britain’s businesses pick their way out of the pandemic. Each week we look from the past to the future through the eyes of a single business function; with advice from real businesses and technology experts. This week it’s the Chief Operating Officer or COO.
The COO isn’t just the Chief Executive’s right hand person – the COO’s job is to keep the train on the tracks. They turn ideas and strategies into a scaled up operation – and they make business-as-usual happen every day. So when a crisis comes along and business-as-usual doesn’t happen every day, it’s the COO who steps up. Remote working? Refactoring production lines? Changing business models or just dealing with complexity? Our chief Operating Officer deals with it all; and in this show, we’ll find out how and what’s next.
On the technology front, my guests are Daniel Holmberg - Head of Sales, UK & International for workforce management system, Quinyx, and Adam Reynolds, CEO of WebExpenses, the expense management system. We’ll also hear from Sage’s VP Operations, Molly O’Riordan. But we begin with Charlie Dabney, Head of Operations for a business called Global Mobility Executive. Charlie, what does `Global Mobility Executive do?
So, Charlie, first of all, just give me an introduction, if you would, to Global Mobility Executive. What do you do?
CHARLIE
We arrange events for leaders worldwide working within global mobility to share current challenges, focuses, also to listen, and then we say to grow, you know, so it's a networking event also but it's basically to support them with daily challenges that they may come across.
NICK
So two words sprung out to me there: worldwide and events. I'm only guessing, but I would say COVID had quite an impact on your business. Take us through what you did.
CHARLIE
Yeah, absolutely. We were actually in Amsterdam last March for a session and that was where really it hit us that, OK, so this is quite bad now. I mean, we had a lot of people pull out on the day at the event, we had to put certain things in place, so no shaking hands.And then, by the end of March, it was full lockdown, so that's where we had to totally pivot and look towards doing virtual events. We'd already planned for the rest of the year to be in Singapore, Australia – I mean, all of that came to a halt. It was really scary, you know, as an events company.
NICK
Now you're the operations manager. Um, what did that mean for you and for your role?
CHARLIE
Lots of learning! We'd already looked previously, we had started looking into running virtual events but it just fast-tracked that for us. So we switched everything to virtual using Zoom.
NICK
But it hasn't just compressed the business – you know, business is still rolling, you've still got your contacts, all that stuff.
CHARLIE
Absolutely. I mean, everyone still wanted to stay connected and that's what we're here for, you know, especially in those times.
NICK
Daniel, let me come to you, if I may. You’re head of sales at Quinyx. Tell me a little bit about Quinyx.
[00:02:05] DANIEL
Quinyx is a workforce management provider, so we're a technology company and we offer services to our clients within sectors like retail, hospitality, logistics and healthcare to help them schedule and manage time and attendance for the workforce.
NICK
Now, that must be really interesting, in that you have a whole load of data. Um, I'm not going to ask you to say what people are doing in their workforces, but at a broad level you must have seen in a very data rich way the change in the workforce and how people are operating. What's that been like for you?
DANIEL
There are a few clear trends that we've seen across our customers. Obviously, sectors like retail and hospitality in the UK are pretty much shut or have shifted their operations completely, so these businesses have massively had to shift their strategy. I think one thing that we're seeing from a high level is – and one trend that we think is going to be here to stay, based on what we're seeing – is the trend of flexible working. So I think both employees and employers are going to expect and are going to require a lot more flexibility from the way they operate. I think employers are going to have to offer tools and offer flexibility in a way that the employees want. And so I think that's one trend that we see as definitely here to stay, which is this mix of flexible working, but also accommodating that in a way that doesn't confer negative work-life balance.
NICK
Excellent, thank you. Adam, let's introduce you. You're a CEO of two companies, so Web Expenses and Web Onboarding – I guess they, they kind of hang together, right?
ADAM
Yeah. It's really one organization, but two products through there. So one is obviously expense management and the other is more about onboarding employees into the organization. So, yeah, we work on a global basis, we've got offices in the UK, Australia and the US, and we service around about 300,000 users globally.
NICK
And what has COVID taught you, both as a chief exec and somebody who has a lot of data and a lot of insight into businesses?
ADAM
I suppose at an organizational level there was that initial stop. So there was the lockdown and there was the practicalities of trying to get everyone working from home, which I think organizations managed at different levels of efficiency depending on the platforms they were using. So we kind of saw that, and I think you almost had this regrouping, you know, as you started to get through April into May of organizations going, ‘OK, this isn't going to go away in kind of four to six weeks and practically, it could be six months. It could be a year. So how are we going to keep the organization moving forward?’ So we had to look at that for ourselves and then from the client base as well.
[00:04:38] NICK
Charlie, I'm getting the sense that that's probably the experience for you as well.
CHARLIE
Absolutely. I mean, we all used to drive into our office and we have staff all at all different ages and different tech levels. We’re all being thrown into using new tech we've never used before, so it was definitely challenging. But again, it was just so amazing how we've all fallen into it now. It's the norm already.
NICK
I mean, that's, that's super positive, but it's not been the same for everyone; it's been tough for folks with kids racing through the house, et cetera. Charlie, you've got kids of your own –
CHARLIE
I have, yeah, I mean –
NICK
Have you had to think about everybody's different needs?
CHARLIE
Yeah, that's the thing as well. And you know, there's obviously the working mums, working dads, but also there's the single employees or the ones where their partners are still going out to work. It's really tough to be sat constantly with no human contact.
NICK
I'll stop being negative in a moment. Just one more bit of history from the three of you. Charlie, again let's start with you. How has your world changed as a COO? What are you thinking about you never had to think about before?
CHARLIE
Oh… I would say for me personally the organization, as in with regards to children. I never really had to think about that so much before – I had childcare and school, and I've had to factor that in big time on a daily basis. On the business side, just ensuring that everyone is comfortable. It's all about wellbeing, really.
NICK
Daniel, how about you?
DANIEL
Yeah. So with regards to, I think, the way our customers operate, they're going to have to be comfortable – or having to be made comfortable in making large strategic decisions – with little data. So having to shift or pivot a business model, having to enter a new market segment or just completely changing the way they operate without exactly having all the data points in place, all the research in place, making decisions in the midst of uncertainty.
[00:06:34] NICK
That's really interesting, because we've kind of got used to making decisions with the benefit of at least some sort of data background. But we kind of like the business case, don't we, a data-driven business case, and maybe that's gone?
DANIEL
I don't think that's gone at all. I think the business case still needs to be there but I think there's less triangulation that's even possible to be done, to maybe, you know, see what have others done in this situation because maybe you're the first one in that situation.
NICK
Cool. Adam, how about you?
ADAM
Yeah, I think there's a couple of strands, and I agree with Charlie in terms of the authenticity of the people side. So actually I think what we've had to do is speak to our people in a slightly different way. And, you know, what we did at Web Expenses was really ask if anyone is struggling, and is that from a childcare perspective or is that from a flexibility perspective or is that from a being on your own perspective, and how can we help to manage that? You know, you don't have the water cooler conversations as much, so you have to proactively go out there. So I think we've had a really big focus in terms of trying to provide a flexibility to people in the organization and understanding of the different challenges. That's actually brought a realness to the organization a bit more. It's not so much you come to work and it stops; it's more in terms of understanding how the blend of both home and work come together. And then I think from an actual pure organizational operational level, what we've had to do is we've had to take maybe a focus which was traditionally over an annual basis and really consolidate that to a week, to a month, to a quarter, but be a bit more proactive. I mean, we've never been huge fans of saying, ‘Right, this is going to be our core strategic plan for a year and we're going to stick to this.’ And I think what we've done even more so on some instances, like I say, we're looking at on a weekly basis how are marketing trends now moving based on the fact that everyone's working from home and no one's traveling and simply kind of our organizational or operational plan has changed quite significantly because of having to, because of this enormous change that came in on a global basis. And yeah, I think that's focused us as an organization to look a lot more at what we're doing and how we're doing things.
NICK
Just to go back to Daniel's point about sort of information available: Adam, do you have KPIs that you use? Have they changed? Are you judging the business differently?
[00:08:43] ADAM
Yeah, a hundred per cent. We do have KPIs, but in many ways, when you look at it a target is very notional. We sit down at the start of the year and someone goes, ‘Right, this is what we have to achieve.’ And usually, it's top-down, isn't it, you know: this is what you need to achieve. And actually what you really want is if everyone is working hard together to the same objectives, you will get to where you get to. And that's kind of been really demonstrated at this time. And so, you know, we've had some things that have really surprised as positively in areas. So, for example, in a marketing capacity, given the fact that no one is traveling and we would have probably intrinsically linked that to expenses, our demonstrations this year haven't dropped, so there's been the same need. Whereas a year ago, if you said that was going to happen – and probably similar for Charlie's business in events – you'd have gone, ‘That's not possible’, but actually it's given us a new sense of what's possible because we've had to kind of strip back some of those pieces and really look at what is possible from the organization and from the people within it.
CHARLIE
Definitely. I mean, for us, one of the KPIs would have been customer service but, with regards to the events, the numbers and our expectations have changed massively. So the KPIs haven't as much but the expectations have because we were always limited geographically to, for example, New York.So we would have 12 to 15 people attend, but now we can open that right up to the whole of the east coast. So virtually, we will have 30, 40 attendees, you know?
ADAM
Yeah.
CHARLIE
So it's really changed for us in that way.
ADAM
Hmm.
NICK
And Charlie, you know, to take Adam's point further: it's same product, same business, same thing you want to achieve, but just a massively different way of achieving it. And sometimes that highlights new ideas.
CHARLIE
You've got to evolve as well, because everyone made the switch to virtual if they could. You have to be a little bit different. I mean, there's the standard Zoom calls, you know, where you've just got everyone on there and we'll have like panelists and things like that. You've got to change it up. You know, we include sort of breakout sessions now, so we break people out into smaller rooms on Zoom. I mean, there are so many things you can do now as well, sending the virtual reality goggles to clients – that's something we started looking into, you know, for, like, a smaller event, like ten people. You know, just bring it in. I mean, we've done cocktails by Zoom. So just changing it up really.
[00:11:06] NICK
I don't recall getting my invite, but thank you. Daniel, same for you guys? Have you changed models, changed operations?
DANIEL
We're still offering our core product, which is our workforce management offering. Throughout last year, we acquired a new company, which was specializing on workforce optimization technologies that could add new value to our customers and, indeed, open up new areas of business for us. So that was a large pivot we did. Now, we’re still focusing on the same core sectors, but by adding more to our offering, you know, we have obviously a larger strategic opportunity at hand as well.
NICK
I want to talk about strategy a bit, actually, because, going back to something that Adam said, we were talking about KPIs and I got a sense that the world is changing fast and what we would have called rules now become guidelines. Everything's a little bit softer, perhaps. We have ideas that we aim for but with a constant sense of, ‘If the world changes around us, let's be ready for it and be ready to move.’ How do you do strategy as a business leader today?
ADAM
We probably talk about it more frequently than we ever have, so smaller sessions on a more regular basis. We moved to this kind of idea of action-based deliverables, so when we kind of started to move past that first four to six weeks of lockdown, we said, ‘Right, what we want to try and do as an organization is ensure that we are putting projects or pieces in place that put us in a better position than we were when we started this thing.’ And we put that challenge across the entire organization, but we really asked the teams and the leaders within those teams to say, you know, ‘We're going to change the framework a little bit but you tell us how we're going to do that. You kind of understand this more.’ And it really kind of fostered a bit more accountability for those pieces and a real ownership in terms of wanting to drive those through. So we've made a significant number of improvements and things like we've done a brand update, we've updated the website, we've improved the product. And all of these pieces have been ideas that have been driven from within those areas which we think by proxy in the long term will lead to better results. Uh, so I think it's a lot more flexibility within that – the plan has to and will change much more frequently. I don't like this notion of having, like, an annual plan, which at the end of the year you go, ‘Well, these are the bits we achieved and these are the bits we didn't.’ I think we've got to be a lot more flexible than that.
NICK
Charlie, you were nodding there.
[00:13:27] CHARLIE
Yeah, absolutely. We're pretty much the same there. I mean, there was apprehension at the start to switch to virtual. We have now a lot more communication with the clients, with regards to what they are looking for from the virtuals. Some clients didn't want to switch at all to virtual, but by the end of 2020 they were starting to switch to virtual because there was realization there that it wasn't changing. We've just had to be more flexible and they've been more flexible. So it's fluid constantly.
NICK
Charlie, is there also new value in your business because you're a corporate organization, you connect HR professionals?
CHARLIE
Yeah.
NICK
They need the advice of their peers more than ever. I mean, are you not a business with more potential rather than less right now?
CHARLIE
Absolutely. And really that's down to, again, the geographical side. It's just amazing to be able to connect a leader in Australia with a leader in London, for example, which we could never do before. You know, it's just been such a hard time for them, you know, really hard time and they've needed these connections more than ever, and advice from peers more than ever.
ADAM
What I’d like to add to that is [inaudible] made us have to think. The scenarios made us have to think and look at things. We used to hold this badge of honour about who was the busiest, so all you'd ever hear was, ‘I'm flat out, I'm flat out, I'm really busy.’ And what that does, it kind of creates this perpetual cycle of never having the time to think about are you doing things well or badly; you're just busy. So what this has forced everyone to do is go, ‘How are we doing things and is it effective? And is it the right way?’ And by forcing that, I think we're seeing a real evolution of strategies and approaches which wouldn't have happened before because all we cared about was how busy we were and then we'd work as hard as we could for the time, then go home, and I think that is changing. Even though work and maybe home life blends a bit more, we're having to think about what is the right thing to do.
NICK
Fabulous. Daniel, from your point of view as well, changing, evolving strategies?
[00:15:25] DANIEL
The keyword here for me is probably trial and error. Trying new things is, is just inevitable in this space. And just to tag onto Charlie's point there regarding global events, we are… Quinyx is a scaling company and we rely on our sales force to go out there to meet clients and to network in events like the National Retail Confederation in New York every year. And these global events, which gathered tens of thousands of people sometimes, they're no longer there for us and so we have to try new things. And digital events have become a huge thing for us, and not all of them work out as we hoped but we had no other option than to try. And so I think that's something that's permeating pretty much all of our customers and ourselves as well as we go to market.
NICK
So you're in an expansive frame of mind and that brings me to another important point about sort of resilience. I think we've all learned to be – in a corporate sense as well as a personal sense – we've learned to be resilient over the past ten months or whatever. As you grow, Daniel, as your business grows, do you feel better prepared for whatever else may be around the corner, for the next shock to the system? Because, you know, leaders have to say, ‘Wow, we want to grow our business but we want to grow safely.’
DANIEL
Yeah, that's right. I think more than ever it's important to keep your customers happy in a time like this. So focusing on customer support as you are onboarding and as you are supporting clients that might be struggling in a way that they've never struggled before – those are the keys to continued growth, and that's certainly something we're investing more in.
NICK
Interesting. Adam, I'm guessing you're kind of the same. The SAAS model says customer success first and growth comes from that customer-first attitude.
ADAM
Yeah, absolutely, and I think typically SAAS is all about high growth. But again, I suppose the problem with growth is that I think you become less introverted or looking at how you can improve. Growth masks challenges. So when you're going through kind of these high growth periods, you’re just looking at how you can grow more. And I think, you know, what this whole scenario has created is actually having to look at how you're doing things ongoing. And that might mean in the technology or the customers or the events and all of these different pieces, but it's forced us to just take a bit of stock and say what's the most effective growth in the long-term.
NICK
Excellent. And Charlie, do you feel that your business is more resilient?
CHARLIE
It's taught us so many lessons and still is teaching us lessons, you know, every day. It's given us another string to our bow. Um, it's definitely given us something new.
NICK INTRO MOLLY
A key part of business resilience, of course, is technology. Most businesses are either relying on tech to help accelerate their businesses, or looking at tech to define new ways of working at least. As well as our fabulous guests, to talk about tech I got to spend a couple of minutes with Molly O’Riordan, Sage’s own VP of Operations. And of course I asked her how her own role had changed this year.
MOLLY
Oh, gosh, Um… crazy. The biggest effect on us, we've had to be flexible. We've had to be agile and flexible to really adjust to one, the new work environment, which had its own challenges around technology, around our ability to communicate via video form or audio form. And just our ability to get the right information and data when you're working remotely all the time.
NICK
And how about going forward? What do you see happening for COOs?
MOLLY
You know, it's a really interesting question. I think what we've seen, it mostly is a real focus on data, and a real focus on the need to understand your own business, your customers’ business, and how you can be most efficient using your data and the technology behind it to really drive your business in an efficient manner.
NICK
And Sage speaks to British businesses constantly. What are you hearing on the street? What are COOs saying?
MOLLY
interestingly, even though it's been a difficult year, I think we're still seeing the need to invest in the technology to drive the business forward. So while it's an investment, it's a cost to the company, it allows the company to be more effective and more efficient with all their customers and with their internal businesses with that investment. So we're not seeing investments slow down, it may take a little bit longer to get there. But it's still a very important part of how our UK companies are working.
NICK
Is there a sense perhaps that COVID has been a burning platform for a whole load of tech changes and business changes that perhaps we've been putting off for quite a long time. And this is enough to make to make most businesses say you know what we need to put technology first?
MOLLY
It's a great point because especially once you were forced to go home, if you didn't have that agile cloud based technology, you were in trouble. So somehow you had to figure out whether you had to have somebody in the office to, you know, run your reports, or do that transition so that you could work wherever you are, because in theory, you should be able to work wherever you are with your data.
The oddest thing is we had a manual process with several banks, where the customers were still required to mail something to Sage to get a bank feed activated. And we'd had this process going on for years. And then everybody figured out that nobody was there to get the mail. And it actually helped us and our customers move electronically because we didn't have a choice.
NICK
Sage’s Molly O’Riordan there with a typical experience – suddenly paper processes don’t really make much sense. Adam, for the COO this is about taking big steps forward…
[00:17:49] NICK
So, to Daniel and Adam, I guess that you both run software businesses. Is there a role for technology in whatever the new normal – that awful phrase – uh, whatever that looks like?
ADAM
I think what this will ultimately drive from an organizational perspective is a huge move to digital transformation. I think it's the catalyst that we've required for a long time. We asked our kind of users near the kind of start of the lockdown about what they thought the impact would be, and I think over 90 per cent of them responded saying they believed it would be a catalyst to improve their tech and to drive further digital change. I mean, let’s be honest: I think in the last five to ten years, we've seen organizations under-deliver on tech. Our home technology has exceeded the quality of our work technology in many instances. We've got this kind of generation of people joining the workforce who are so au fait with technology but also expectant of it. It's the kind of generation of instantaneous access as we call it. So if you want anything, it's on tap. And I think workplaces had been dangerously negligent in some cases of just not keeping up to date with what was expected. And I think when this happened it necessitated a change really quickly, which was actually easier to do than people have been kind of saying. Part of this survey said over 60 per cent of people had had tech challenges but they were subsequently overcome quite quickly. So I think, you know, a lot of organizations have had to take a long, hard look at themselves in terms of the quality of technology they're providing for their employees and really had to amend that quite quickly because if not their business was going to be in danger.
DANIEL
The promises of technology have been around for decades around how they'll transform and automate so many businesses and whether it's, you know, logistics operators that would run fully automated warehouses or retailers that would get rid of all of their shops overnight. And I think what we're seeing is that there are now real scalable use cases for automation in sectors that have been very, very slow in adopting these in the past. I mentioned earlier, you know, this trend around flexible working. You know, we did a survey as well, and we saw that one in three employees in the deskless workforce have actually left their jobs because they didn't have a good schedule, they didn't have a rota that fit them. If you think about from our perspective in these deskless industries, you have this need to automate and this need to be flexible. And from an employee side, you want the good schedule. And so we see that there's a huge promise there that technology can bring and bridge that gap between, making that a real promise for both employees and employers.
NICK
So, Adam and Daniel, it seems to me that there's been two key tech trends here: there's been the rush to virtual – so, virtual workplace when we all had to start working from home – and then this longer-term piece about keeping a business going, which is where we get Daniel's point about automations, for example, and I know there's lots of tech that is about reducing costs. So what have you guys been asked for in your respective companies and products? What features have you developed to keep businesses going?
[00:20:48] DANIEL
Early on in the pandemic, we saw that companies were looking for methods to track and trace the spread of COVID throughout their workforce. Because Quinyx is often the entry point for absences and sickness and holidays, we were able to add functionality that could easily trace back to, if someone was sick and COVID, you know, who did they work alongside on that shift and who needs to be notified? So that was something that was a real world tangible feature that we were able to go live with almost immediately to help companies manage the spread in terms of infections within the company.
NICK
Adam.
ADAM
Yeah, a couple of pieces. On the expenses side, what we basically did was we looked at all of the reviews that we'd been provided across the various platforms that are now used and we focused in on where were the areas we needed to improve and gave that challenge back to the tech and the product teams, which was around improving the ease of use. You know, we want expenses to be a kind of a ten, 20 second task at a time, no more than that. So that was the challenge back to the team to improve the ease of use, so that people aren't having to spend any more than, you know, a few seconds putting that together. That was a big piece we worked on and released an updated version of the mobile app towards the end of the year. And the other one, as well as the expenses, we provide an invoice management application. And that was one that just got expedited through COVID as well massively because, with 85 per cent of people suddenly working from home, invoices that were coming in manually to the business were a real problem. So that became a kind of an area of our organization which expanded significantly because it was a challenge that needed overcoming by organizations, just the practicality of being able to manage that traditionally kind of manual process from home.
NICK
Daniel, someone… a COO like Charlie is probably thinking, ‘This is all very well but what does a piece of software do for me? How are you going to help my day-to-day life?’
DANIEL
What we're seeing is, uh, a few trends, I think, that are going to accelerate, uh, the support to the C-suite. So, uh, across our customers, we're going to apply machine learning to customer datasets to help drive better decisions on where people will go. So this is thinking in a retail environment, where do I need my peak staff, where do I need my casual workers – you know, actionable data points that will drive better decisions. And then the other trend, I guess, is that across these increasingly complex organizations, there'll be an increased need for integrations between IT providers in between SAAS providers indeed. So in our example, you know, we integrate to Sage Payroll, to Sage People. Those types of partnerships are going to be even more important to deliver the value to the COO and indeed to the rest of the C-suite to get the value from the IT investments that have been made.
[00:23:20] ADAM
Uh, I think from our side as well, like, you know, if you strip back what the actual software does, what we're designed to do is to enable organizations to be more efficient. So give them time back which was spent doing manual tasks which would provide no value. And that's what all software really should do. So it's all about efficiency. So whether that's in transfer of data, integrations, visibility, reporting or just the task itself, it should be all about enabling efficiencies, so that your team and your people are more effective to do their job. I think we find too many people spend not enough time doing their job because they do all of the crap around the job. So that's what we want to try and do. In terms of trends, I think what we're looking to see is we touched on the technology side earlier in this kind of huge transformation, which I think is going to be driven in part from what's available, but also the expectations of the workforce that's coming through. The other piece that we think we'll see from that workforce is an expectation which is more around being environmentally conscious. So certainly from our side where we measure expenses and travel, we're going to be looking at providing more information to organizations so they can see their carbon footprint and how that affects the environment. So it's quite a transition away from just the traditional kind of expense process. But I think it's a really important thing that organizations and their kind of as their social and environmental responsibility is gaining more traction becomes important.
NICK
Ex…
ADAM
The only thing I would add is around the kind of ecosystem. And I think it's Daniel has mentioned, and that's the thing how maybe Sage come into things as well. So I think historically what we've seen is software vendors work independently, but the real value for organizations and, you know, such an example for Charlie would be the information flowing together. And that's I think the great value that Sage can provide by bringing that ecosystem together to allow the data to flow and then, again, you reduce the overhead, reduce the administration. That's how you get your efficiency.
NICK
Grand, thank you both. Charlie, I've sort of kept you out of the discussion for just a couple of moments because I happen to know that you're not the biggest fan of technology and, you know, your business is very much a people business. So are the chaps right – is technology going to be a key part of the business moving forward?
CHARLIE
I mean, absolutely. The biggest learning curve for me definitely was realization that there are so many things that can be automated for you and make your job so much easier. Um, it was just little things that in a way I was very old school with. Creating documents, for example – I mean, it's just the little things that we – everything was by hand, you know, like signing contracts, printing those out. But now obviously working from home, you know, not everyone had a printer. That's definitely been one thing. I mean, we're constantly looking at new tech. That's something that we're always open to.
[00:26:10] NICK
I think one of the other bits that's terribly important to say right now is that both Daniel and Adam run SAS businesses. So it's pay as you go, it's a monthly fee and that means it's an OPEX, not a CapEx, expense to get something done. And so many of these future products like automations will be on that basis as well. So what used to be a massive CapEx that you'd have had to discuss with your board, Charlie, for example –
CHARLIE
Yeah.
NICK
You switch it on, you use it as long as you want and off you go. And that puts it firmly on the COO's agenda, right? You're making those sorts of decisions.
CHARLIE
Yeah, you know, it's, there's no need to bother the board, so to speak. It's just changed incredibly on that side of things for all of us. And again, going back to people being different tech levels, it's been fun to be able to teach everyone at these different tech levels. Um, it's exciting and it's exciting for them as well. You know, it's one of the few good things that have come out of it, you know, we're all learning.
ADAM
Yeah, I just think it's been an inevitability for a number of years – this hasn't been a new idea. I just think a lot of organizations have held themselves back under the pretense of, ‘Oh, our people won't like it.’ And I actually think that's in part been driven by senior people who have held that opinion and they've tried to cascade it across the organization. And again, that's maybe a fear of the kind of generation that's coming through, where they are just so used to it, it's an expectation. If you've done coding at school as part of the curriculum, which certainly I didn't do – I can remember I was in sixth form when we had an email lesson where they kind of introduced, like, this is what email is – but we are in a completely different place now, So actually, that whole view of, like, ‘Oh no, people wouldn't like it or they won't understand it’, we've had to kind of get past that and you're not having many people who are complaining about it and it's up to them as software providers to ensure that the system is easy to use because that's what you'll then subsequently be judged on.
NICK
I mean, that's the point, isn't it? One of you said earlier, it's about an experience that matches my expectations as a consumer.
ADAM
Yeah, a hundred per cent – we've underinvested in that area. But when you can get all of these little pieces working really well, then you can actually focus on some of the big pieces. So you haven't got time out of people's day, just on tasks that don't add value; you can then actually kind of really focus on the pieces that will make a difference and enable organizations and people to drive forward.
[00:28:33] NICK
Fabulous. Let's have some predictions about the life of a COO over the next year or so – nobody gets a free pass on this podcast, you've got to make some commitments. So Charlie, let's start with you as an operations manager yourself. What's the next year going to look like?
CHARLIE
We would hope as soon as possible to get back to some sort of face-to-face. Again, bringing tech into it, it's not going to be the normal 20 people in a boardroom, it's just not. For us, it's exciting because, you know, potentially we could hold an event in London and we could have ten people in the room within the COVID-secure health and safety. But we could also have it as a hybrid event, you know, we could have a screen and could reach out to the whole of the UK and have them on Zoom if they're not comfortable sitting in the room. So it's sort of positive for us, we're really working towards that and, speaking with our clients, that's something that people are really looking forward to most of the time, you know, there's a little bit of apprehension there but people are keen to get back face-to-face, especially from a sales perspective, you can't beat networking face-to-face with people. It's where people want to be.
DANIEL
I'd like to just tag onto that point and make a prediction around when and what will happen when people start going back to work and meeting people. I think also we're going to see, uh, hopefully the vaccination programs accelerate and, once people are secure, an explosion in face-to-face interactions – and indeed I'm hoping that my team will be able to go out and meet customers in a way we might not have done in a long time. So I'm making a prediction that there will be a craving for face-to-face interactions.
NICK
Adam.
ADAM
I think there's been a real focus on what is one of the most difficult roles in the organization. So I think it's the area where everything goes when it hasn't got a place, as well as the area where a lot of things go when they have got a place. So I think what we hopefully will see is I think a move from the operations being considered the day-to-day to actually a more focused kind of, ‘Right, this is where we need to get to and this is how we're going to get there.’ Certainly it has been an area within our organization we've undervalued historically and we've picked up a lot of those pieces. So we've actually newly appointed at the start of this year an operations director and already that person has picked up a lot of fairly big, hefty projects. So I think there's a huge amount of kind of impact that that area will have, but I would just like to see a… get it out of the nuts and bolts and really get into delivering pieces that are able to drive organizations forward. Everything at its lowest level is operational – it's the kind of things that keep us moving. So I think it's a really tough role to manage and it's one that requires a really strong team as well.
NICK
Charlie, one piece of advice for a COO, then.
[00:31:20] CHARLIE
Ooh…it would be, you know, have that great team and have a great relationship with the team. We wouldn't be the Global Mobility Executive without the team that we are. A little bit cheesy but it's really true, you know?
DANIEL
Yeah, I’d bring it back to the wellness aspect. Focus on the employee wellbeing, uh, because people are truly the greatest asset that a company has.
ADAM
I think from my side, I'd just say stop saying yes and start saying why.
CHARLIE
Oh, I like that.
ADAM
And that will be, that will be the difference between kind of how to make those decisions.
NICK
And Charlie, you like that?
CHARLIE
I really like that.
NICK
That’s going home with you?
CHARLIE
I’m writing that down.
ADAM
You can have that one.
CHARLIE
I’m writing that one down!
NICK
That’s been ‘Agility Unleashed’, brought to you by Sage; and thank you for listening. Thank you also to my guests, Charlie Dabney, Head of Operations at Global Mobility Executive; Adam Reynolds, CEO of WebExpenses, Daniel Holmberg - Head of Sales at Quinyx, and Sage’s VP Operations, Molly O’Riordan. In our next show, we cast our eye over the role of the CHRO; and that means people and talent, wellbeing and engagement. It’s another frontline role for businesses dealing with the uncertainty of 2021. And since we’re all working virtually, we’re doing that whole podcast in virtual reality – and there’ll be videos to prove it. See you then.