The end of alcohol!? - David Orren says you can have all of the benefits of ethanol without ethanol

A synthethic replacement for ethanol that has all of the benefits but none of the drawbacks seems like science fiction but David Orren from GABA Labs thinks they have cracked the code.

David is the MD and co-founder of GABA Labs, a potentially revolutionary start up that is aiming to produce a range of replacements for ethanol. These scientifically researched, but yet to be approved, ingredients could stimulate the same neuro-receptors in our brains as ethanol. According to David and his partner Prof. David Nutt, they could do it more accurately and they would be self limiting so over indulging would be impossible. But does the science stack up? How does it get FDA approval? And what sort of business model do you use when trying to disrupt one of humanities oldest industries?

The fantastic Susan Boyle co-hosts this episode as Foxy is on a well deserved holiday.

Transcript

Hello again. David um, it's fantastic to talk to you again. So when we last spoke you were on our desert island and you were torn between the traditional idea of what somebody might bring single mall scotch I think in your case um and something called.

09:09.33
David
Um.

09:11.34
fungalboy
Alcorel which you're developing at Gaba Labs now I don't understand even though I did many moons ago do a degree in biochemistry. But I'm trying to recall you know all my amino acids and you know my different neurotransmitters and the little bit of knowledge I used to have um but it's. Been so long I've forgotten what is Gaba and why is the gaba system within our bodies important.

09:35.91
David
So I'm not the scientist in the company. That's David Napp however I'd like to explain to you my understanding Gaba stands for gamma amino butyric acid and it's one of the important neurorecepts that regulates our body. It's responsible for sending signals across the body and helping us to respond in appropriate ways and even before we came along as human beings on this planet Gaba existed in nature as a stress response mechanism as a signaling mechanism that allowed living organisms to respond. To external threats and to changes in the external environment. We've adapted to that and we've absorbed gaba into our into our system. It is how we now function it helps us to modulate and regulate glutamate and energy production a little bit like the the brake in a car. Cars are useful because they help you go forward. But if that's all they did then we'd be in trouble. So I think a brake is quite an important part of having a car that works. Um, you know and is good for humans and that's what Gaba does gaba modulates glutamate it balances and every time glutamate is produced in the body a little bit of gabbbra is produces the ying yang.

10:35.52
fungalboy
Ah.

10:50.20
David
How we work and sometimes we're um, we're under heavy stress and our glutamate system is responding Appropriately. We have to produce more Gaba in order to to balance our response so modulating our energy allows us to relax when we're hyper, nervous or anxious. Our glutamates. Working an overdrivegagabber kicks in and allows us just to to come down a little bit and and connect in ah in a reasonable way and being social human beings. That's something that's crucially important to survival as a social species and is how. Is one of the things that helps us to form communities and and have curiosity and interest in each other.

11:30.19
fungalboy
So This idea of essentially Gaba being a neurotransmitter something that helps as you say to essentially suppress and and cam a slightly camera nervous system then suppress it slightly?? Um is is that something that traditionally. Alcohol has been used in society to to mimic or to to accelerate.

11:51.83
David
Yes, alcohol or ethanol to be precise suppresses glutamate if you like it suppresses the the fuel to the engine and it also acts on Gaba so it's got ah it's got a double effect and that's one of the reasons. Why. You know if you drink enough alcohol. You'll knock yourself out and it's it's really taking away the energy source and also increasing that that that modulating effort for the glutam meat that is there so alcohol has ah has ah quite a high impact. Whereas we've developed something that acts that we believe at this point and it needs to be demonstrated through the safety process that acts in a much more focused way on the gaba system simply helping to modulate the the glutamate the role of glutaminee. And and and and because it's it's it's modulating in that way. It tends to have a flat curve meaning it reaches a certain effect a plateau and then holds you there rather than continuing to to suppress the energy which is what alcohol would do.

12:44.54
fungalboy
Um, ok.

13:02.14
fungalboy
So is it as simple as adding gaba to a drink because that sounds like it would be the ideal thing so this this acts as a neurotransmitter. Well we just to ingest it does it transfer into our bloodstream does it have the desired effect is it as easy as. Um, you know putting Gaba into a into a cocktail.

13:23.23
David
No no that that's um, in Japan you you can actually buy gala cake and all kinds of treats that are ah gabaerrgnt and you know and and that's easy to dismiss. Because Gaba does not cross the bloodbrain barrier. So when you consume gabaergic food or or food that contains gabbba that gaba doesn't doesn't actually produce the effect that we want because it simply doesn't enter the brain so we don't produce gaba and cell gabbba. What we've devoted as an ingredient which when added to a drink will help to stimulate the gaba system and help to activate the gabbba system the gaba that your brain naturally produces so we're not giving you more gabbba. Your brain will produce the the quantity of gaba that it needs.

14:15.57
fungalboy
So when you say we at this stage. Maybe it's important to help people understand you, you've who who's the we in this case and and what are you producing? Maybe maybe that's a 2 part question if we start with the the who first and then we'll get into the. The the what you're producing and how it works in a moment.

14:35.95
David
So David Nott and I started a company in 2016 and that was um, that was it after a year of my investigating the work that David had done to understand the mechanism of alcohol and his his vision. Of an alternative to alcohol that gave us what we want from alcohol but without the downsides of of ethanol and aceteldehyde without the damage that alcohol causes and from 2016 our company has been investigating researching and developing alcol. And alkaol is that is that ingredient which um, which is here. It's this transparent liquid which is odorless and tasteless and which can be mixed into almost any liquid to create the effect of a drink that is. Indistinguishable from any other alcoholic drink. Um except it doesn't contain ethanol instead the effect that relaxing effect comes from something called alperol which is the gapaergic ingredient that we've developed and it's an ingredient that we would license to the drinks industry for them to create any number of.

15:35.58
fungalboy
Um.

15:47.66
David
New drinks, a new generation of drinks.

15:51.28
fungalboy
So Gaba Urgic which is a phrase that you've used is ah does that refer to the ability of this ingredient to stimulate natural Gaba production within within the brain.

16:06.41
David
To stimulate the activity of the Gaba ah protein which um is the signaling mechanism within the neuroreceptor system. So it simply allows that system to work more flexibly more agilely in a more agile way.

16:21.19
fungalboy
And ok so this sounds this sounds wonderful. This sounds fantastic. Um, how is it that David not became interested in this and and what sort of background did he have you know was this something he was thinking up. Um.

16:23.12
David
Be more positive.

16:40.69
fungalboy
You know, ah sitting on the back of the bus on the on the way to work or was there a more professional approach.

16:44.76
David
Well David David initially qualified as a medical doctor and I think we've we've had long discussions around some of his early experiences working with other doctors who then began to do some scientific investigation and. And as they developed through their career. Their early careers David observed how alcohol played a profound role in the lives of some of those individuals and in fact, some of those individuals are no longer with us as a result of alcohol. Um, and that stayed with David and it led David to have ah a deep interest in why we drink. And and what is the mechanism of alcohol and how does it create this damage which it clearly does the world health organization estimates three point three million people die of overuse of alcohol per year. That's six hundred thousand in China alone per year. Some devastating backdrop to that. So David's been primarily concerned with how we address that and has taken his investigations and so and and studies in that direction. He got into pharmacology and became the head of pharmacology at Bristol and then. Set up the neuroscience psychopharmacology department at imperial college and has been chair and director of of that part of the division of brain science at imperial and sincerely 2000 and much of his.

18:15.57
David
Career has been dedicated to understanding the mechanism of alcohol and to developing alternatives I met him in 2015 when he thought he had something which was ready to go I had no interest at all in the drinks industry. No interest in alcohol I've always enjoyed a glass of single mold or a pint of beer after a game of basketball. But I really had no interest in in dabbling in this area and felt that my day had been wasted. Ah when when I went into London and he told me he wanted to create an alternative alcohol. I I said why? why alcohol works. Why do you want to screw with alcohol. It's you know it's been there for a very long time. Why not do something really important you know fill a gap. Don't don't mess with something that already works and um, ah you know I thought I was a very educated person and I thought I'd read widely and so when David asked me to read an article in which it made the bold statement that everybody every family in England.

19:13.44
David
Had experienced 1 person who had been a victim to alcohol at least 1 person I said that's just not true. Not in my family and I got home after a long train journey walked into the house. My kids were at the cinema with my my wife and I had a half an hour just to walk around the house thinking about the day. And I looked at the photographs on the wall behind the cocktail cabinet and there there he was you know the 1 person in my family that we don't talk about. We don't talk about him because life has been very miserable for him and so there's not a great deal to celebrate and therefore his name doesn't come up too often.

19:40.70
fungalboy
M.

19:52.51
David
And that's the tragedy which is rooted in alcohol. Um, and I realized that it had taken that meeting with David to kind of wake me up really to to think about this and so I read more widely and I began to try some of the things that David had suggested could potentially be. Beginning of of a solution and over the next two years or so I I became more interested and then I I ended up attending a conference in China where I listened to western scientists preaching to over two hundred chinese ph d people fursd scribbling notes. 1 of them said alcohol is an essential part of our daily diet. It's essential to human health and at one point he made a slide which I kept and I have in my files. The slide said that alcohol. Ah. Unlimited quantities of alcohol are good for your cardiovascular health and I was um I took that back to David Nutt in London and said David this is what this scientist said he called himself a professor you know this doesn't how does this stack up with your thoughts on alcohol and David showed me a graph where it's true. It could be argued.

21:03.32
fungalboy
Ah.

21:06.96
David
That alcohol because it dilates the blood system. The blood vessels is good for cardiovascular health because it allows blood to to circulate more whining it does do that and it carries the toxins more widely and permeates every tissue of your body so it creates massive destruction and damage in doing so. But we've we've got to a point where it's perfectly legal and normal for people to stand up and say that alcohol is good for your cardiovascular health and to say that with without without um now without fear of of prosecution. But of course what you're promoting is is is massively massively damaging. And that made me angry. It made me angry that people could do that could get away with it and underlying underneath his professor's name on the invitation list was ah the name of a very very well known beer company that claims hugely ethical roots. So. It kind of pushed me towards saying to David I want to help you now it could be argued that this is a very anti-archal stance actually David and I enjoy alcohol I've got 300 bottles downstairs in my garage of different things I don't drink hugely but I do enjoy eat the right drink at the right time and when I met with David I was. Basketball coach in my spare time on the weekend and I would regularly sit down and drink 2 points and if someone else was driving I would drink 3 of beer after a good game of basketball and I do enjoy wine and when my daughter marries we'll drink champagne David owns a wine bar and most of our most.

22:22.70
fungalboy
Um I.

22:35.91
David
Ah, memorable meetings have been sitting in his wine bar and that's where we first where I first experienced the the flat curve that David had talked so much about of our botanical drinks. So we've had some great discussions in the wine bar and we are pro. The role of alcohol which is to allow that social lubrication and people coming together and we celebrate that that's part of being on this planet. Um, but we also understand that alcohol is an old technology. It's been around for a very long time just like coal. You know, just like horses and carts. But we went beyond that. And we develop better solutions and yet alcohol seems to be this. Um, this thing that we we just haven't got passed and it is time that we did do that the science is there. The science is no longer the challenge. We've broken the back of that we understand how to to enjoy those benefits that alcohol gives us but without the damage. So so why not move forward.

23:33.37
fungalboy
So If if alcohol is this blunt instrument that performs a function well but causes damage in the process. Um, then what is the alternative. What is um, the the opportunity from ah from a health perspective to. How could we be sure that whatever we replace it with is actually safe and functions as well.

23:56.22
David
Well, this is just the beginning and and we don't and tend to own gaba gabas within us all. It's our birthright. It's how we function I think we're simply a vehicle for for promoting that next level of of technology in something that's been around for so long. And I think that you know humans are so creative and the drinks industry is the most possibly the most creative industry in the world. It attracts very smart intelligent people who understand customers very well and who understand how to invent and and how to design they simply don't have access to the level of science that. David has been privileged to spend his life uncovering. So I think that we as humans society will take Gaba and embrace it and I would fully expect that within 20 years the industry will be will be transformed. Not just in the production of alcoholic drinks or alternatives. But also in foods. So we've already developed um ingredients that can be used to create foods that are highly nutritious and that create that sense of wellbeing and wellness so that that thing that gaba allows us to enjoy. Um. Can be enjoyed in a variety of ways and and you know as humans we already seek out foods that are highly gaba-ergic which is one of the ways in which humans developed as being very responsive to gabbba by picking foods that were gaba-ergic and eventually self-selecting a food chain.

25:30.79
David
That works for us and works in synergy with us and Gaba is is a really key part of our gut biome and our our ability to ingest the right things and to um, develop autoimmune systems and and and and cardiovascular muscles and and ah and are. Our healthy development from from the moment we're born is driven by Gaba Gabbba is extremely active as babies and and we believe that the nurturing and the love that an affection that happens between mother and child is is highly relevant to the stimulation of Gaba and gaba in turn. The stimulation of healthy healthy systems for the baby. So. There's a huge field of science to uncover which we are already working on. We're doing work currently at a number of different universities to understand the function of gaba. How it how it's metabolized and how it in turn impacts the the nutrition cycle. Um, so we think that drinks. Although that's an an obvious place to begin. There's an entire food platform that's coming and we we want the world to embrace that our goal is to be if you like the mouthpiece and and to initiate and to create those proofs of concept. Proof of concept that will inspire others to follow. We think there's a great deal for us to learn and and there's ah a wonderful future for this area of science and and and I think that society will will embrace this.

27:00.42
fungalboy
So How does it work. Then how do you take advantage of these breakthroughs you know from a business perspective as Well. So if somebody has created a gabaergic um ingredient. That you believe can be incorporated into drinks or potentially into into foods. Ah, how do you make that happen. How do you take it from the laboratory into somebody's hand.

27:29.69
David
Well I guess um, I'm I'm the business person and when I first met David I didn't understand why he was wasting his time once I'd understood the value and the importance of what he was doing the question was how do we develop a business model that can make this reality. How do you go from? you know a professor at imperial college sitting in a quadrangle under the clock tower in South Kensington to a global organization that has changed how we consume and how we socialize which is which is what's on the table here. How do we? Fundamentally disrupt a. What will be by 2030 a $2000000000000 business and clearly and David's vision was that we would make a drink and that's ah, a very honorable vision I we sat down and talked about this at great length and realized that that's not going to That's not going to work. Um I used to swim in the river thams when I was a kid and. I know that swimming upstream is isn't is not a good idea. It's much easier to swim downstream and I'd rather swim downstream with the industry. Um on on my side and so we decided to change our approach and to create an ingredient that the industry would embrace and that would fill a gap for the industry. Since two thousand and fifteen sixteen we've seen a massive change of attitudes towards health wellbeing towards conscious consumption and that's reflected now in you know more than 30% of certain age groups is simply walking away from alcohol and I think the industry is challenged. Ah.

29:03.44
David
But just as coal couldn't invent solar power. The alcohol industry won't invent the alternative to alcohol all they can do is come up with different color coal different flavor coal you know and that's not what we need what we need is a new form of energy but without the damage and how do we do that. But we've got to come at it from from outside the box einstein said that if you're sitting in the box where the problem was created. It's very hard to see a solution and so and I think we've come at it from the outside now how our our goal and our challenge is how do we get the food industry and and the drinks and the suit to embrace that. Well first step is to create an ingredient which we've done. Which works. But then how do we communicate this, especially when we can't share it until it's approved well 1 important step is to create a proof of concept that we can share and so four or five years ago David and I sat down we were in an airport in Austria.

29:51.40
fungalboy
In.

29:57.71
David
Had snowed heavily. We were sucked up for two days and all we could do is sit there and look at each other and talk and so we explored the possibility of creating a a drink that would only use existing approved foods and for that we'd need to do some research to find out where gaba. Existed and could be extracted legally to create a a food that we could offer which would give the feeling of alcohol and we came up with this so this is ah this is actually the latest version of sentia black and sentia is a gabaergic spirit or gaba spirit. We've created that combines more than a dozen ingredients carefully selected to have each of the ingredients as a plant. It comes from a plant that's in the food chain that's available in the marketplace. It's either a food or a food supplement and allows and and those ingredients together perform 4 functions 1 font. They are all gatherergict meaning they all have a natural action on gabbba. Some of them are are particularly strong but very bitter and and you wouldn't want to consume them on their own others bring flavor to balance that others help.

30:58.54
fungalboy
Oh.

31:12.19
David
Ah, the functional components. The functional biochemistry to cross the the gut wall and others help transport across the blood-brain barrier to create and amplify the effect that we we want so in others we we we are able to increase the bioavailability.

31:29.92
David
Ah, in the bloodstream and in the right places of the functional chemistry within the ah the legally ah available foods and that has a good effect on some people. Some people love it. Other people don't feel it so we've discovered that our products work slightly differently on people and but the products have become incredibly popular. We got a hugely successful returning customer people buying again and again 44% average since January one we've had a massive growth in in people who subscribe and want more information. It's gone from 5000 in January beginning a generator to over fifty thousand today we've sold more product in more of this centia since January than we have done in the previous two years since we began. So there's a massive shift in adoption and right now we're out of stock in in some places because we were not able to make enough now. This is interesting because this is not actually a product that was intended to be a.

32:25.92
fungalboy
Um, so so.

32:26.90
David
A commercial product. It was this was intended simply as a proof of concept but it's become incredibly popular and that tells us there's enormous demand for what we're doing.

32:35.97
fungalboy
So to to be clear that product is sent here. Ah yeah, and that are yes.

32:39.90
David
This is sentia. Ah it only contains plants. There's no alkaella in here this is made of legally approved permissible plants that have been in the food chain. Ah, prior to the appropriate date as defined by Fsa the european food standards authority and also by the Fda. So this is available. This is made of plants that are available in the marketplace but it produces that effect. It's designed by our scientists based upon the biochemistry and functional biochemistry within each of the plants. And to combine and produce an effect a relaxing effect and many people in Ireland are are already min this and and we're importing it or they're they're importing it by placing their orders on our website in the Uk.

33:24.38
fungalboy
So I have um I have a friend who I actually recommended look look into this a while ago and it's sentia red was the original and and you mentioned sentia black so are there 2 variants available now or or what have you replaced red with black. Help me understand.

33:44.50
David
Sean so there are going to be 3 gaba spirits sent you a red sent you black and sent you a gold sentia red was the first one and that's now been 4 years it took us a good amount of time to develop the product we then created ah another variant called black and. Red and black are different red is designed to make you feel very warm, very cozy, very intimate, very open typically ideal for a 1 on 1 you know boy meets girl candlelit dinner or sitting by the fireside very very warm, intimate. You might say slag yaffret does Yal. You know, very nice for those moments whereas black is designed for a slightly higher energy for more intellectual curiosity in exchange where there's more banter involved or perhaps you know you with friends or business colleagues. You know you're planning a journey or your next big thing or your your next business. Something important something that's going to spark the imagination. Um, and then the third one. Ah, which is called gold which is not yet in the market but which we hope will come during this year is designed for. You know, networking and party and higher energy. So if you're in a party and you want to get around and talk to everybody gold is perfect. My sister who's a therapist will will have said to me that in her experience and she has her friends. Try the new versions that we bring out she says if you if you look at people watch drinking red.

35:11.80
David
Will tend to sit back in the sofa and smile and synchronize with their smiles and it's very inter, intimate and and and so on whereas black people will tend to sit forward. Um, and they'll lean into the conversation and they'll want to participate and be very active. Ah gold People won't want to. Stand up and walk around the room. They'll feel inspired to to to use their bodies and and dance or or talk more more widely in the room so they have slightly different effects and that reflects the complexity of Gaba which affects us a number of different ways. All of them are relaxing none of them contain alcohol. And and so far we've had ah an incredibly positive response to each of the variants that we produced.

35:52.94
fungalboy
Now you mentioned previously that that it has differing effects on different people I I guess much the same way Ethanol does obviously but perhaps something that's perhaps more pronounced initially Do. Do you understand yet. Why some people will react in exactly the way you anticipate. And for others it leaves them um nonplussed perhaps.

36:17.38
David
No, there's a huge amount to discover these are ingredients that have been in the food chain for a very long time. So We we have a very good understanding of the safety levels. Ah but the but the interesting thing is that it does affect us in slightly different ways and in more pronounced ways and that's. That one of the objectives of the research that we're conducting at different universities is to is to further understand them.

36:39.64
fungalboy
And if I was to take a step back and and look at it and say okay so this sounds as as we mentioned previously very futuristic. Um, but in some ways if the opportunity is there to control this ah gabargic system and to. Um, essentially motivate our neurotransmitters in the way that we want them I think you used analogy previously of of playing keys on a keyboard in in the right way. Um, is is it a case that simply mimicking what we have done for centuries with with alcohol. It is perhaps slightly limiting so for for Gaba red when you were describing it I was thinking oh that sounds you know very like red wine. Um, you know gaba black sounds you know more like something you would perhaps associate with with beer or you know, um, you know those events and those occasions. And Gaba Gold god forgive me when when you were talking about it I was thinking is that you know is that more like a a kind of a spirit you know is that is that the version of tequila um is that just showing my my ignorance in terms of I have to relate things back to what I know and and the um drinks that we have. Become associated with different occasions. Different mood states different um ah consumptions patterns. Ah or is it simply that we actually you know that's what you're doing currently but the future could look very different. It could look like a tablet. It could look something that we we ingest or um, we.

38:11.71
fungalboy
Treat totally different to how we consume alcohol.

38:16.77
David
I think that's a really good question. Um, you know can we design the future or or will the future evolve and design itself and I think under the genius of human creativity. Once the genie is out of the box. Um, once we know how to get the benefits of alcohol without the the damage of the alcohol then I think that the world will move very fast and I think that's coming and our job is simply to put to get the genie out of the box and put it on the shelf and I think we we were already seeing the enormous response we get way more. Emails and people trying to reach out to license what we're doing to be the first ones to have exclusivity in certain markets to buy the product in countries that we can't currently export to there's enormous interest and we've even from the very beginning we've had people from the farro field as Africa South Africa ah various other countries in Africa South America Mexico Argentina Uruguay wanting to produce it now. We've had major companies across the world coming to us asking to acquire the the rights. So there's there's an enormous interest but I think that's only going to.

39:29.47
David
Only going to grow and I think at some point we will be very quietly in the background developing the next next ingredients the next level of of Science. We want the world to embrace this and then it's up to the world to take it where where the world can go I think this will end up impacting our our food on nutritional platforms. We will be producing foods that are healthier that are good for our sense of wellness that will increase our expectation and what we're satisfied to to eat what we're we're willing to Consume. We will want to know what effect does this have on my mental wellbeing. Um. And I think those are all good Things. We're increasing the level at which human society can can can can can exist and and and and and can and can work together and I think that's that's what we want we we won't have the capacity to do all of those things. But the food and drinks industry. Well.

40:28.87
fungalboy
And how does it work currently so you're in the approval process for Alcorl. But you're also developing other alternatives. Um, ah as well. You know how far are you away from getting you know regulatory approval as ah as a. Ah, generally regarded as safe in the us or I think it's novel food in the eu and and I presume still the Uk. Um, as the as the definition for something which allows you to be sold. Um in quantities and and um, you know in a regulated way.

41:03.23
David
So we're we're doing what we're doing for the very first time and so we're having to learn as we go and we've been very cautious in in our approach. We took the time to look at the different regulatory environments and the different food authorities in their processes. We were initially very keen to launch in the yeah uk and then and then we looked at the european standards with Eu Fsa european food standards authority and then we looked at the us the Fda processes and. Of. All of all the all those systems and we've also looked at China and another country small countries. We've been even being approached by at least 1 small country at government level to to launch our product there quickly because they need to address. Ah an alcohol, an alcohol problem within their population. But we've chosen. Focus on the us why because we're very small. We're underfunded. We have limited resources and we needed the most predictable method that we could identify which would give our our investors. The people who actually fund this what crucial to making this happen without this investment. We won't we can't do this I've already spent all of my children's college funds. So they they now have debt. You know I we I've sold my pension funds and so is David so we now rely upon investors and the the investors are and we've got to build off something back.

42:32.82
David
And in order to do that. We needed a predictable process and so we've identified the us as being a regulatory environment which is highly legalistic. It's very process driven. But that's a good thing for investors because it it means you can create a budget for a known set of activities and we've. Worked with an agency in the us who are consultants and specialists in in in the regulatory process for Fda for the grass process under the Fda and we've put together a program which is fairly exhausted. Not fairly It's exhaustive. It's conservative and we've costed that at 15000000 ah, pounds which is not as much it's ah it's a small fraction of what we would be doing if we were developing a new pharmaceutical or a new drug etc. But this is a food and so our obligation is to demonstrate safety. We don't have to fix anything and we didn't have to prove that we can. We can reverse alcoholism we don't have to prove that the anything we need to prove is that this is safe to consume and the battery of tests that we put together under the direction and guidance of the experts from the us who have much experience of this tells us that we can be in the market by 20 26 June 26 so it's a 3 year run um much of the work. So. It's a 3 year run and by 2026 we will have completed building the grass dossier which is a precondition for being in the market we should be able to sell a product with alckre by 2026.

44:06.32
David
Second half of 2026 and we estimate another eighteen months before we actually go through the the document with the Fda and they tick all the boxes at which point we'll be able to license the product to third parties who we expect will be lining up to create new. New drink brands. Um, which contain our so this is not you know 3 to 5 years seems like a long way. It is but not for something as as disruptive as this it's ah it's a timeframe that we're happy to work with and our investors are being very very patient. Um. So this is this is on the way.

44:44.57
fungalboy
And how do you acquire those investors.

44:49.73
David
By talking to people by explaining. Um, what we do and we have limited. You know we have a small team most of our we're very strong team. Scientifically we have a very very strong platform and foundation of scientific contribution or contributors. From a business point of view. We've limited the size of our of our business because we're until we're in the market. All of our money goes into funding the science. Um, but we've been approached and we're supported by some wonderful individuals who understand capital markets better than David or I and and we've been helped to navigate. And we are currently in a series a funding round and currently had and we've been approached by over five hundred investors we've only been able to to get back to a very small number of them. But we we don't have to work very hard to reach out people come to us our challenges having the time. To get back to the the inquiries.

45:46.87
fungalboy
So if you have an audience you know of a couple of thousand people listening to this podcast who work in the drinks industry everything from bartenders to students who are studying brewing and distilling through to senior managers global innovation managers for for exceptionally large drinks companies. Um, what would you say to them is is the world about to change in within their lifetime. You know a an industry which has grown up and has matured with civilization I would suggest you know from the very dawn of of time is it about to be fundamentally disrupted and should they be. Worried or excited by the opportunities.

46:26.79
David
I think the drinks industry should be excited I think we're we're about to go through a major upgrade in in the in the potential that we have and mixologists in particular have a very exciting road ahead and and already we have mixologists. Inventing new drinks um with with which are zero alcohol but they have the effect that have that gabbba effect. We've got a ah raft of products which we want to be able to commercialize but don't have the resources and and and. 1 of the things that we're considering is how we license our ingredients I'll give you an example this is called Gaia. It's a yes, that's exactly right? This is sat you. This is ah is a SixtyMill bottle and it's um, it's a brown liquid.

47:07.65
fungalboy
So you're showing me a small sample bottle of maybe 50 mls or so.

47:22.66
David
It's an intense color of beer if you like and if you add this to a 0 alcohol or a de-alcohoized beer. It will turn that de-alcoized beer which in my experience is not a very pleasant taste most of them some are good but most of them are not. It'll. But it'll turn a relatively poor dallkolized beer into a really wonderful full beer with a full mouth feel. You know when you take away the arcive from beer. It tends to turn the liquid into a thin liquid in my experience many of them taste like stale lemonade. Like a lominade that was left on the shelf and forgotten about and so we're able to turn those relatively poor liquids into something that's very very exciting and which feels like a beer under the trade show a while ago and by 10 thirty in the morning I was beginning to slow my words and I had to stop sampling our own product. Called it ga because it's kind of short for gaba beer and gabier in arabic it turns out means the wise one and we thought that was pretty appropriate and another way of another meaning of gabia in Arabic is the one that makes you feel good the one that makes you feel comfortable I thought that's appropriate. So Gabbia is our contribution right now to the beer industry. We need a commercial partner um to get this out into the market and we've been approached by a number of different people. We haven't really land on exactly how we would do that but we're now going through the sort of gray matter steps to figure out what the reasonable.

48:58.87
David
Approach would beta licensing this to enable gaiaer to be out in the market. But we also have other products we've got ready to drinks which have we've designed which can be put out there as carbonated in cans we've we've developed some wonderful mocktails which. And we have a couple of companies that we're talking to at the moment um to license their ability to produce gabaergict mocktails. Um, and and we have these 2 wine companies that are interested in us helping them develop a champagne-like drink There's a wonderful. Drink that we can create which is very much like champagne. We were approaching a trade show by a lady pouring a dearcoolized english sparkling wine which she was so proud of and I can see why they they put huge time and effort into developing this drink. And I didn't enjoy it I like a good champagne but I really didn't enjoy this drink again. Stale lemonade comes to mind. We added some of our gapia to this and it transformed that drink into a a wonderful wonderful champagne light. Beverage. So we've played with this in the laboratory. We have a liquids lab in in Hamel Hempstead near Watford and we're able to produce some really wonderful effects. So. There's a huge raft of initiatives. But we're very limited in our in our bandwidth and so we have to take each step 1 by 1.

50:27.60
David
So if people want to participate and and and can come to us and say this is how I can help you? um so in an efficient way. Then we're very open to those conversations.

50:39.13
fungalboy
Um, and what you touched on there is is interesting for me because you've you've gone away from just referencing the um ah these psychoactive effects of of the products but actually talking about improving the mouth feel. You do organleptic qualities.

50:54.21
David
Um.

50:57.70
fungalboy
You know the taste. Um, you know there's a lot to consider here rather than just what we focused on initially and that seems like a very broad skill set to have in such a narrowly resourced and such a young company.

51:08.27
David
Well, it was really important for us to understand how we can increase that improve that mouthfield and the reason is we discovered that absorption through the palate and through the the nasal passages which involves volatiles and having contact in the mouth for an extended period of time. Is actually one of the really key elements of absorption and then the the on the ensuing effect on gaba so we spent quite a bit of time on that and as a result of that we actually developed liquids which improve that mouth feel and and I have to say there was. We've been very lucky. Our journey has taken us to open doors that we we weren't expecting so we now have a product and which gives you that mouthfeel and which we can create using just plants. Um, so we've learned quite a lot There's there's another interesting learning point that I I sometimes refer to on I don't think David Nut would mind when I first met David I and I said to him why are you doing this and I was genuinely puzzled. And what is your expertise and why are you messing with alcohol and 1 of the things that David said is he you know he said well I know about the neck up That's what I know about and and he was kind of reluctant to go beyond that being a true scientist. He specialized and had great depth in that area but over the over the years that I've known David.

52:37.10
David
Teams broadened its understanding and knowledge you brought in additional scientific expertise and so David has become the center of a wheel of a very broad scientific contribution from a number of areas and I think that's one of the things that I'm proudest to have achieved with the company. Is to pull together sciences from a number of different areas into ah a very effective functional relationship where we've been able to um, increase our our power if you like our scientific capability exponentially by cooperating across previous. You know, very clear demarcations and in the early days it was difficult. Every time we introduce a new, a new form of a new scientist into the team. There was real reluctance from the existing team to to they felt I think a little bit uncomfortable that they were no longer going to focus on the thing they knew about but we've been able to carefully construct a team. That comprises a number of key skill sets which sit very comfortably together and we work extensively with external experts. So our advisory board is very broad and we're currently working with 5 different universities in in very specific disciplines each of which specializing in their area. But. Together connected. We've we've been able to to progress into to expand our our knowledge base.

53:56.98
fungalboy
Um, so that that sounds fantastic and um I think you've given a huge amount of detail in a very short space of time if people want to explore more if they want to understand more where should they go? How should they find out more about the work that you and Dave are doing.

54:11.20
David
Well, we we welcome people who can contribute to what we're doing. We aren't going to be the ones to change the world I think the the drinks industry will do that we're simply providing an alternative technology platform people should feel free to contact me directly David Dot Oren gabelabs.com or and is o w r e n or simply um, reach out through the website I'm usually happy to meet anywhere near London or Bristol where I live im offered in London but also happy to get on to Zoom or teams and we welcome inquiry from genuine. Supporters who who think what we're doing is important.

54:48.64
fungalboy
Thank you very much I hope to be learning an awful lot more about Gaba Labs What you guys are gonna do how you're gonna progress next I have to say you know it has tweaked my curiosity no end and it's been sometime organizing this conversation but it's been well worth the wait.

55:07.61
David
Thank you so much for your interest. Well and I've enjoyed the conversation.

55:08.13
fungalboy
Thank you very much David.

55:13.57
fungalboy
Excellent. Thank you very much. Yeah, great. Let me just are gonna hit stop because that helps.

55:16.65
David
Um, was that okay.