The Missing Ingredient - Karen O'Neill created a buzz with Beekon but luck is the only thing it lacks

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In this episode you'll learn how the entrepreneur's journey is so often determined by an element that they have little control over... luck.

Karen O'Neil was a guest on our desert island last year when the world was at the feet of her newly created "honey refresher", Beekon. She had been through her fair share of ups and down as a founder of a new to world start up but all the elements for success seemed to be lining up for Beekon to explode, metaphorically. Unfortunately  it exploded literally... We explore what led up to that moment, the consequences and the chink of light at the end of the tunnel.

We don't have a Desert Island guest today as Foxy had his hands full, as you'll hear in the background!

PS Nela's tooth was fine in the end!

Transcript

00:00.00 hi Karen  It's great to see you great to chat? the last time we spoke you were on our desert island. So um I guess early twenty twenty two or so we had you on.

11:23.91
Karen
Hi Will how are you doing.

11:35.38
Karen
Um, um.

11:39.56
fungalboy
Um, we were just chatting away about what your drink you would choose for your desert Island and you know after that episode was up of foxy had a little bit of a giggle we laughed and we said sometimes when we get people on particularly who are you know? um you know entrepreneurs who are creating their own beverage. We say to them.

11:51.38
Karen
Ah, um.

11:58.60
fungalboy
You know, maybe don't pick your own beverage. You know don't you know we'll we'll talk about that as Well. You know we' we'll give it a good plug but maybe just choose something else and you know give us a slightly different angle and there was no different angle with you. You were absolutely laserfocused all you wanted to talk about was the drink that you had created you had brought to Market. That was really personally invested in by you and that was beacon batches. Can you explain to people what becon batches where are.

12:21.22
Karen
Um, yeah.

12:28.25
Karen
Yeah I was I was unashamedly evangelizing. Um so beacon Our beacon batches is and continues to be something really quite unique and so.

12:42.83
Karen
I'm living proof. Well that there's a fine line between lunacy and Genius because I'm walking it I said about creating something that didn't exist and and yes some people would look and say it's a take on It's a modern take on Mead So I took a foundational ingredient which is honey so I went top to the the food chain. I said what can I do with this so I created an entire new category drink called a honey refresher and all I do is for Mend fresh honey and create an alcohol drink so in your mind think okay 5% alcohol. It's almost like a honey persecco at 5% And then I infuse it with natural ingredients like Ginger lime and elderflow and lemon.. There's no sulfites no additives, no preservatives. Um and the little hidden secret is because it's so clean and we only use honey nothing else. It's that it's quite hard to get a hangover on it. So We we became quite famous very quickly for being a very clean.

13:18.64
fungalboy
Oh.

13:35.54
Karen
And tasty drink.

13:35.65
fungalboy
Yeah, and it's it's something that I've tasted I totally enjoyed ah that idea of creating a new category to me is incredibly exciting and slightly you know disturbing as well because it you know it challenges people over and over again. Um, but this was something that.

13:48.93
Karen
Um, it says.

13:53.40
fungalboy
Obviously we'll talk about how the the idea came about in in ah in a while. But um, you know you created this drink from scratch. You know you from the conception that you had of it but you were no neophyte. You were no novice to the drinks industry. You know you know how did you start the drinks industry. What was your experience like before before you actually went and.

13:58.77
Karen
Are.

14:12.77
fungalboy
Out on your own and create a beacon.

14:14.70
Karen
Yeah, so um, yeah, I'm probably what you would call a veteran. Um I've only ever worked in drinks. So I started out in 9099 launching smart advice in Ireland um, and I'll never forget the yeah.

14:30.59
Karen
Rejectction of the time will was thirty five thousands cases in the first year in the nine months we did a million cases. It will we millions like it was quite remarkable. But what a rite of passage and um, you know ultimately Gilby's at the time merge ev deep merged with.

14:32.42
fungalboy
Now.

14:49.86
Karen
And with Guinness became diaio I went into James's gate until 2023 Twenty oh 2003 2004 got head on onto into heinnegan and managed everything other than the Heinegan brand which says something about me so I was Maverick um, so grew the portfolio. Um, and then ultimately went to Amsterdam again to manage a problem child which was their cider portfolio. They'd acquired Scott and new castle for multiple billions and when they lifted the lid on it. They realized they had very little other than aid around so they parish.

15:14.00
fungalboy
And.

15:22.62
fungalboy
Now.

15:25.70
Karen
The Irish girl in to make sense of that globally I was there quite a number of years and ultimately you know I think what did I do I changed an organization from having green blood flowing through its veins to having something a little bit different and seeing the world differently.

15:40.54
fungalboy
No.

15:42.30
Karen
Um, seeing the opportunity that side represented. Um you know so that was so that was so like I've what of my 23 years and drinks now if you include my entrepreneurial journey. So it's yess, it's when it's truly um and it's probably it very much defines. My career.

16:00.51
fungalboy
And and something I I can you know very much understand and and sympathize with you know in a way I I started in 99 as well. Um, in in the drinks industry and only we have ever really worked in the drinks industry so you know parallel but but maybe slight divergent paths insofar as.

16:07.84
Karen
Um, yeah.

16:17.75
fungalboy
Um, those roles that you had in those big international um companies. You know they were mostly marketing and and brand focused is that correct.

16:26.42
Karen
Yeah, pretty much and there was always a thread of innovation and um, which you have very much marketing really quite strategic. Um, um, yeah so I don't know where you're going with your next question. But I Just wish I'd listened more in the meetings that required production and ah bottle developments procurements I was there but in body but trust me I wasn't there enough in mind. Um you know, but yeah, those.

16:58.70
fungalboy
Yeah, well sometimes I was the yeah well I think certainly in my experience. You know there were plenty of times that there were things at the production team on my side of the table at the time were saying that maybe the marketeers.

17:00.95
Karen
Many paths to what I did but the core of what I did was marketing. Yeah.

17:18.70
fungalboy
We'ret listening to and and um I'm sure vice versa on many occasions. But um, you know huge success in Diajo and heineken and with their global cider business. But there must have been some little grit in the oyster. Some little idea that you know was wrapping itself around and and and in your head. Ultimately became the pearl. You know that that became beacon so what was it that suddenly you you started to think about well actually there's something I'd like to do something different something on my own.

17:49.17
Karen
Yeah, so you know what it was a combination ah of that growing grit. But it also was an absolute slap in the face. So Actually so so I always showed up differently in in the organization and what came with that was an inner frustration. So when I say I showed up differently I was probably always the challenger. I always took on the Challenger brands I was never interested in the in in in in the green giant I Genuinely really wasn't and there was opportunities that presented the stuff for me that I wasn't interested in it. Um, so there was always an inner hunger to do things differently to push the envelope to actually challenge convention.

18:07.95
fungalboy
Green and greenjained.

18:24.27
Karen
And because I was such a challenger I probably didn't play the party politics enough and that led to an internal frustration in me but truthfully well I left Henegan I did a bit of a Jerry Maguire so I left on a point of principle. So I remember distinctly at the time and I was I headed up the cider business in Amsterdam and we we as in the royal we in Ireland had come through a really tough time in terms of the 2008 and crash. Um and I made it my business to try and support as many irish agencies as we could. Um, so we had a very decent irish roster of agencies and we all worked together to come up with what I felt was an amazing global campaign that had impact at its heart and believe or not impact wasn't talked about back then and doing the right thing from a brand perspective wasn't talked about in calms. It was. Get sexy, nice people pranczing around with like in a meaningless way and just hope that people that want to emulate that whereas actually I saw a space that was super interesting insider and it had a meaningful aspect in terms of layered benefits for the bees yada yada yada. We presented it and within a couple of minutes and there was quite an infamous themo at the time asked the agency to leave the room and I truthfully really struggled with this because.

19:46.54
fungalboy
M.

19:55.13
Karen
Anybody that's been in the marketing game knows to present a campaign to the Cmo. It's six months of work now there had been milestones along the way in terms of actually sk safeguards so that this was no big reveal or surprise but yet if a gary was taken and this work was considered not good enough. But the way in which that was communicated I had a fundamental issue with and really my point was I cared about these people and we've worked our ass off and this is not and the way that I probably would want if I chose to is handle the situation and there was multiple other things going on. So.

20:31.50
fungalboy
Now.

20:31.54
Karen
I tapped out So I said to them I'm out this is if I can't protect the people that I care and respect I'm not in the right job and so I left so I left on a point of principle Now. It was very amicable and we had great conversations and there was a bit of sadness a tension of sadness in both of our parts. But actually I left with a fire in my belly which was disclose the circle and I wanted to create what I knew that a lot of large institutions couldn't see or weren't willing to do and that was to create a brand with authenticity a brand that had impact at its heart and actually a brand that brought people.

20:53.50
fungalboy
No.

21:09.24
Karen
On a story that was compelling and I hope and even now to the day motivating. Um, so so that was the kernel so it was a bit of Gris in terms of my ongoing kind of Maverick approach. But then it was a slap in the face and it was a slop in the face that was I welcome one for me to go Karen. Like honestly were you put in this world to line the profits of a big multinational or were you put in this world to leverage the skillset that you've developed and actually go create something that actually makes people think differently genuinely think differently about how they're shown up in life. So I choose the second rate.

21:45.28
fungalboy
And and you didn't just choose it. You actually took that strategic experience that you had and you actually put it to good use and you you set yourself down. ah ah I was very captured by this and and taken by this when when I read it you you wrote about having you know 5 principles 5 aims 5 goals if you will when you set yourself up in in business. You said well I'm going to do these things regardless of of what the product is or what you're working on you. You talked about 5 different things and but that you wanted the standards you want to set for yourself. Would it be helpful to to talk through those because.

22:15.30
Karen
Yeah.

22:20.30
fungalboy
I Think that's quite an unusual step for people.

22:22.23
Karen
Yeah, so look I think um there I needed to ground myself in what was true to me. So the first thing. Um, while I I went on this journey and I used journey a lot I got slagged a lot deal like here she was going on on her journey again but doesn't what it is and no regrets. So I wasn't going to put anything into this that I wasn't willing to lose whether it be time effort reputation money because I invested I I cash rolled this thing myself. So no regrets just embrace the journey and know that it's it's part of life's fabric. The second thing was wherever I could um I was going to make an impact so I always have tangential and aspects to. To this commercial journey and this brand journey which was actually how can I help and or how can we make sure that there's layered benefits and the impact at every turn. Um, and there's you know there's a story in itself in that in terms of some of the amazing stuff. We did really early at the gate and the third one was one that I didn't start off with. But it became super important to me because as an entrepreneur and I'm sure there's a lot of listeners. Um listening to this that are entrepreneurs. There's a there's a freedom that comes with an entrepreneurship but there's a price to that freedom.

23:43.13
fungalboy
Now now.

23:45.36
Karen
And if that makes sense. There's a massive price to and this personal sacrifice to that freedom. But the onlock for me was I don't work for beacon beacon works for me and it only works for as long as it works. So I hope that makes sense it works for as long as it works whereas. There was times where that equation didn't always stack up well and I'm going to be really honest, it was times where I was being controlled. it was twenty four seven it I was it was just suffocating but each time I tried to lift myself back and go is this working for me or am I working for it and.

24:05.10
fungalboy
And.

24:18.70
fungalboy
Yeah.

24:21.28
Karen
The fourth one and it's one I learned through the amazing mentors and people that I had around me Um, ah my career is be work class and everything I did and um I'm so great. So yeah, so I'll give you an example, the bottle.

24:30.61
fungalboy
Um, what does that mean though, like sounds great.

24:38.63
fungalboy
Yeah, yeah.

24:40.76
Karen
In a world where the majority Ninety Nine Point Nine nine percent of the industry are standardizing their bottle for a multitude of reasons glass is expensive and very difficult and complex to deal with and streamlining makes it just more easy to run on production lines and.

24:57.16
fungalboy
Molds are expensive.

24:58.42
Karen
Mold everything everything about class and it was a point of conviction for the very beginning of this that I was going to put something in consumers hands that was worth worthy of them holding embracing talking about e I say it. It's an arch that we're losing in this industry which is actually this is. Ultimately, a social industry that creates conversations and we're not putting enough out there that actually really in in inites or invigorates a conversation. So why created a bloody beehiveve shapeped bottle who does that and I and I swear to god it it. It is deferred the launch by 2 years I was so hellbent on going for this bottle and and for me that is world class in 2022 a beacon had only been a puy and and bearing in mind we'd launched just a couple of months before covid hit in 2022 of the seven world. Ah, premix awards that were rewarded awarded. We want 2 of them outright now we won 7 total. We won two I one of those for for that bottle design which is truly unique and and we won multiple other rewards for it. So that's what I mean by world class. It's taking a higher standard in. Every aspect and every piece of detail and owning it to a level where you're pushing yourself beyond your boundaries and your thinking is this good enough and and the last and the last you talked about five pillars The last one is really truly um, important to me is to keep it real and to be as kind.

26:30.44
Karen
Um, this journey as I possibly could so I gave I gave of myself more on this journey than I've ever given my professional capacity not just in service of actually my business but in service of the Halo and the the people that I was meeting and the amount of people that I could help as I went it became ah here's what ah it nearly became a platform. For me to meet and help as many people as I possibly could and it sounds a little bit ay but actually I can honestly say if you did a straw poll of anybody who's on this on this listen to this podcaster who knows me I guarantee. Ah most of them would actually put up a finger and maybe a hand and say.

27:09.60
fungalboy
Now.

27:10.13
Karen
I know what she means I know what she means you know so so they were my 5 kind of almost mantras.

27:17.63
fungalboy
And and you know that that in itself I think shows a degree of you know, ah thoughtfulness to the to the approach of starting a business whereas a lot of people are just focused on getting up and running getting something out there and pushing as hard as they can um but you were you. Great Experience. You Great strategic thinking you had real meaning for what you were trying to to do um but you know you were no novice you you obviously were expecting that that we're going to be ups and downs you know in in this journey starting out creating ah an entirely new category and setting standards that were really exceptionally high. Did you have you know a straightforward run were there any early successes or early challenges that you had to overcome the standout in your mind.

28:04.17
Karen
Oh God Ah I don't know a time where where I got any of the rub of the green like and that's not and and it's actually very hard now for me to to. Try and separate What is normal entrepreneurial friction and challenges versus the journey that I had and so that's hard for me to judge because I haven't lived another person's journey and what I will say is what I went through with.

28:21.60
fungalboy
Yeah.

28:30.75
fungalboy
Now.

28:37.31
Karen
Pretty extraordinary and um I never got out of triage now. So three months after launching covid hit we were with a Plc backed distributor which went to the wall. So how does that happen? No distributor.

28:41.24
fungalboy
Yeah.

28:51.81
fungalboy
Yeah.

28:56.69
Karen
Within two weeks of covid heading I got a call from our first manufacturer to say actually we're going gangbusters. We need all our production so we can't make anything for you and there's only 2 the original the original kopacker who manufactured John Kopa for for us.

29:06.86
fungalboy
So so this was your your copacker Your yeah.

29:15.22
Karen
So there's only 2 ah potential players in the island of Ireland that has tunnel pasteurization which is what I need because there's no gonek in this product to actually and our sulfites are anything in it. So it needs to be flash pasteurized and um so I had only 1 other option. Um, um. And there's a battle in terms of actually trying to get somebody to make this product in the middle of covid. It's an unusual product. It's unorthodox. The methodology isn't straightforward and so so that was another battle. My first consignment of bottles. So. So you talk about experience and in each stage I try to mitigate any of the potential hazards. So for instance I knew I was creating a bottle and I know it was going to be a potential nightmare. So I am I hired an engineer.

29:54.51
fungalboy
Yes.

30:06.27
Karen
Which is an unusual move to make as an entrepreneur when you're resource constraint how I was an engineer an american and engineer who was living in Taiwan to go into China and do a full audit of the of the of a number of manufacturers.

30:18.81
fungalboy
Yes.

30:20.91
Karen
And the audit was on a principal level and suppose I need to make sure that the supplier's choosing was into the sweatshop and that the the working practices were in line with my values but secondly I needed to make sure that they had the production standards required the full audit was done and the controls were in place. My first consignment of bottles 125000 bottles landing in duveport which by the way I managed all I could think of as what the hell you do with 125000 bottles. How do you even clear a duven port where do I put them right? managed all of that.

30:51.30
fungalboy
Ah, yeah, yeah.

30:54.26
Karen
They sat in storage for a couple of months because of the lag between the first production run and when we started using them. There was air inclusions in them which became armageddon on the production line there was explosions they were exploding so to be fair to the first manufacturer they were as.

31:04.17
fungalboy
So bubbles in the glass.

31:13.31
Karen
Frustrated and as as as challenging as this situation was that wasn't the reason why I got kicked out covert opportunities right? They actually stood by me and there was 1 particular guy in there that was the production manager at the time was phenomenally supportive and. He gave me a break. So if you can imagine the scene. Well I rocked up and let's be honest, this is a male dominated business female rocked up with a shitty little kitchen sample of a product not in the bottle and said I would like you to make this and most people would have kicked me to touch.

31:34.41
fungalboy
Now.

31:47.60
Karen
And ultimately back to one of my values which was you know in terms of like be kind. The only way I managed to get that production agreement away was to offer up almost a reciprocal arrangement where I said okay I have this skill set. Which is global Brand strategic brand and marketing and you have this and you have you have what I need which is production capability and scale I will mentor your marketing department and I will help with your brand strategies if you make this product for me.

32:06.43
fungalboy
Yeah.

32:24.30
Karen
So this is an important light bulb moment for me which was my breakthroughs never came as a result of necessarily money or paying. There was beautiful layers of contras or you know old fashioned like just a kind of value. Add. I brought at every turn that meant that actually what shouldn't have um, amounted to an outcome in my favor did and that's just a really nice example of it. But back to your original question. Never got the run of the green never really came out of triage and the bottlelers were an absolute nightmare was when I meant to the next manufacturer. They couldn't run it on their lines so you're looking at thousands of hand label bottles and it was in the middle of covid so it was just 1 thing after another.

33:10.49
fungalboy
But so if if those are I won't say because I don't have that personal experience to be able to to to um contradict you or or to assert that you're right when you compare to other entrepreneurs Journeys though. Those kind of stories get told all the time you know in terms of you know, something's gone wrong despite your best efforts hiring the engineer you know sourcing? Um, ah, the the quality of the bottles that you believe to be right? and then it turns out, they're not. You know they're relatively common stories. Um, but you know if if those are. Challenges that you're overcoming. You're overcoming them because when the product gets into people's hands. Consumers are obviously delighted with it. That's and that's the success. That's what's driving this success success that allows you to overcome these products because I and I know because I tasted that consumer reaction must have been you know. Very heartening for you now.

34:05.29
Karen
Oh my god it was the only thing that kept me gone so there's 2 sides to this story. There's the side of getting the product on the shelf which was traumatic. Um, and and I recognize what you're saying which is come on Karen. But on your big girl pants here like things shit happens I never there was never a time or shit wasn't happening. Will there was never a time like I rolled to the second manufacturer there was literallyurely. There was never a time shit wasn't happening.

34:28.95
fungalboy
Um, yeah.

34:38.35
Karen
Um, and at some point and I used to meet entrepreneurs and they'd say and oh god I remember that time when there was you know there was a thing put into the product and we had to recall and I'm like I had that by 10 you know? um, but on the flip side there was daily lisure. Pinch myself moments on the reactions to the product. So for instance and we had only when covid we'd only gone into on trade licensed um within two months I managed to get a microcosm of a trial in. In half a dozen super values which is a multiple and retail chain in Ireland and within two months we realized I got epas data from them and realized we were out selling average craft 3 to one that this is a product that had no foundational and trial samplings. Like we had nothing because we were handcuffed and muzzled at the same time due to the covid constraints. Um, and yet word was getting out. We done really well on social and we started no different to what I'm sharing with you today. A very authentic story. All of a sudden consumers were actually starting to actually talk about this. Um, we got. Central listing with mosgraves after three months doesn't happen. We we then. But then we started coming out of covid and we started going to festivals so I remember there was a window where we actually did the big big grill at the festival a music festival and actually after the first day. The security person came to me.

35:53.90
fungalboy
Yeah I know for.

36:10.73
Karen
That morning now you're wrecked I've never experienced the physical. The physicality of managing a festival like honestly we were slammed and we were so green so naive and the security person came to me and said um Jesus you were busy yesterday and I said oh worry we they were like you're the busiest bar.

36:11.00
fungalboy
Um, yeah.

36:16.92
fungalboy
No.

36:28.20
fungalboy
App.

36:30.33
Karen
Now to say that I was pimple on the as of the gigantic Cardsburg bar beside me was an understatement but I actually know we were the busiest bar that weekend and we were only at a number of months and and that rolled andro and rolled and.

36:37.70
fungalboy
Now.

36:48.75
Karen
You know so we started to quantify what that looked like. So now we knew we outsold average craft ber 3 to 1 then we actually knew that we were against central building lists for a reason and and actually we were getting listing lefter I've never gotten a know from a customer. But for those that answer me there are some irish retailers that didn't even bother answering but actually apart from that.

37:01.14
fungalboy
Yeah.

37:07.98
Karen
We've never gotten to know and then we started to track our festival performance and 80% of people who tried our product will bought it. We had an 80% conversion rate and we started winning awards and actually you know at a consumer level. It was the only thing. Kept me going because I knew and that and then like or even our research our us research was off the rich scale in terms of the positivity like people were like we have never seen on anything like this before this is truly unique. So the pave was that the path was paved from a consumer perspective. You know people genuinely saw that was unique. They appreciated the cleanness of the product. They appreciated the flavors not all of them I said as I said to many people I don't expect you to like them all. But I'll defy you not to like 1 and um, and yeah, they is that was that was the stuff that I knew that was me at my best this me and like.

37:53.51
fungalboy
Yes.

38:05.55
Karen
Evangelizing this product doing brand at its best creating the the mix creating the story is the back end which I now recognize is a totally different skill set and for any entrepreneurs that are right there doing it on your own which is what I was forced to do for too long. Because of the pandemic is not a good idea I don't have that left brain skill set nor and and also there are you know Ireland isn't fully set up for incubator brands. There are massive challenges both in production and rate to market for incubator brands. Particularly in Ireland and so therefore my tank was being filled at the consumer level but it was being emptied at a double rate at the at the at the back end of that funnel in terms of the production in the road to market end.

38:49.90
fungalboy
Yeah.

38:58.58
fungalboy
But you talk about the irish market and the success that you were building there and and that was giving you then a platform because Ireland has has many challenges as you pointed out but it is a very good test market. You know it's about the right size. It has a great mix of of on trade and and off trade. Um, and in terms of scale. It's it's kind of you know something where it's not too small, but it's you can demonstrate a lot of ah success and it gives you a platform then to go to export markets and when we spoke previously you you were just ah I think heading to or coming back from the States. You know there's a lot of interest. And and a lot of opportunity that was being created to actually take the consumer success that you were experiencing in Ireland and actually roll it out. Um was that something that you were very consciously going after that you were you? You thought that the opportunity was going to present itself. You know in in probably the toughest market of all.

39:51.60
Karen
Yeah, look I mean with respect this product was made in Ireland it was incubated in Ireland was never made for Ireland we just don't have the climate well and we don't have enough people for the ambition to be realized so I always had 1 and and 2 eyes not one I 2 eyes on the prize which was the US market

39:52.12
fungalboy
For for drinks innovations.

40:11.39
Karen
So in spite of the of the the challenges presenting the product once the product was presented. It told its own story and actually that story was embraced. Ah you know that story was embraced and to the point that I decided um the back end of mid last year

40:32.14
Karen
That we would go first. So I started raising money and ah very quickly got through the hpsu enterprise Ireland process and um, high potential startup apologies. Yeah, which is the and anyway so and then.

40:39.24
fungalboy
Yeah I potential startup.

40:48.11
Karen
Got secured investment and not only secured investment. Well but actually and had a significant amount of money I'd been through a program in and a kind of investor kind of forum in Ireland where there was an unpreted level a number of investors that were jumping on and. So I was in the middle of due diligence of them and at the same time I was running a parallel track where we'd gone into research in the us and we'd we'd we'd trialled liquid production in the us and we'd actually secured a a listing in one of the biggest retailers in the us sprout. So.

41:15.11
fungalboy
Yeah.

41:25.86
Karen
All of a sudden I have money coming in which will invariably fix a lot of problems. Um, there's a segue into the us with the listing and actually you know because the constraints here at a production level got to a point where I had a product recall a couple of months before and I thought I was out and. Ah, in Ireland but actually I was I was happy to put that to bed and turn my attention and leverage what you talked about which is that irish pilot story for the real outcome. What I wanted which was international expansion. So I was like okay happy days. Go on. You have a question.

41:53.29
fungalboy
Yes.

42:02.35
fungalboy
So so things the graph you know that there are ups and downs. But the graph is plotting upwards and actually is is really you know you're starting to realize your potential and and actually to take it back to then the summer of of 22 I guess I'm looking at. Um, or thinking about a memory I have so I do the big willll every year it's it's it's on my doorstep I'm good friends with Andy Noonan who's the who's the founder and for a couple of years I've done um talks and I've curated the um, the stage the brewcamp stage so I was I was there last year

42:24.63
Karen
Um, so.

42:37.64
Karen
Um, yeah.

42:41.64
fungalboy
And I was there each day and I went over to talk to you because we we hadn't met in person but we'd done the podcast so I went over to talk to you and I was standing outside your bar for 15 minutes waiting to get a chance to chat to you because you were busy.

42:46.23
Karen
Yeah.

42:52.71
Karen
Yeah.

42:59.91
fungalboy
Because you were with consumers and I didn't want to give you know interrupt you and you were in full flow and then I ended up meeting somebody else and then I get distracted and I got I got dragged off to another bar and I I didn't go back and I'm I'm sorry I regret that but you were busy. Busy busy, busy and you had cans all of a sudden and.

43:07.28
Karen
Um, ah.

43:12.99
Karen
Um, yeah, yeah.

43:19.75
fungalboy
And there was you know there was obviously just a buzz forgive the pond around what was happening so things were really looking up but that was you know I guess was that just before the shit hit the fan.

43:33.49
Karen
Oh god so it makes me emotional hear. You say that you know that? Um, yeah, we were for no matter what festival we showed up but we were 8 deep for 3 holidays. Um.

43:47.69
Karen
So the bottles never situation. Never redeemed itself and we paid fortune for change parts. We couldn't automate the labeling and and eventually the manufacturer said look you need to move to cairns. So again, my experience kicked in and I tried to mitigate any risk because there's an unknown commodity using honey in a can. So um, hadn't been done in a long long time according to the can manufacturers but I went into I did a trial on the can nine months prior and we had tested them so we shove tested all the cans. Um I got the green light. We went into cairns and to say like it was like um, it just goes to show just how much you you talk about me with my desert island pick of of beacon. All of a sudden I forgot about the bottles. Bade this child that I'd birthed I was like I couldn't give a holy crap a be the butts and more I loved the cans I was like oh my god these cans are amazing. All the customers like finally you've come with the cans because I had the backing right? They they were willing me to succeed the cans were going gangbusters. Like I mean gangbusters and three weeks I had three weeks of believing I was in the clear. It was three weeks after and I sent a text to a good maid of mine and I said oh my god the cancers are exploding and she was like a true fear I'm thrilled because they would have seen my pain and I went.

45:07.65
fungalboy
The cans are blowing up to use your expression.

45:21.37
Karen
No, the cans are literally effing exploding they're exploding a clerk's customer rang me and said you have a problem with the bank Holidayy weekends. The temperatures stored thes exploded and he said I've been around a long time. This isn't pretty.

45:25.88
fungalboy
Ah.

45:39.28
Karen
Unwill to say my heart dropped was an understatement I was actually heading to and Martin it's an off license in in tannaov to do tastings because that's what you do when you're a founder and next thing almost shakespearean-like. I'm in the car and I heard a pop and I'm like what the hell was that and that popping has been the soundtrack to my life since last summer

46:03.24
fungalboy
Ah, of.

46:14.35
Karen
So I had to declare that at the time I was raising that with all within a couple of weeks so I had to declare that to the shareholders or the incoming shareholders that we hadn't closed the deal. We hadn't closed it with the ei and they all said to me we're backing you. We're back in the jockey. Believe that there's an operational issue that you can overcome keep going which was really again it was another. You know when I talk about my tank. The stuff that empties them the stuff that fills it this not only filled my tank but it filled my heart I was like okay I'm going to do a fee.

46:40.97
fungalboy
Yeah.

46:49.18
Karen
And I kept going now that situation didn't redeem itself and it was fairly damaging. We'd on on the back of a of we'd gotten that listing into Tesco I couldn't honor the Tesco listing and some a lot of these listings and were you know they they.

47:00.22
fungalboy
Yeah.

47:08.29
Karen
I guess they were the appeal for the from an investor perspective. Um I had gone in I had printed a whole set of cans for the second rom that couldn't be used because relations broke down with the manufacturer. The cans were overfilled that was one of the contributing factors. Um. To a level that they couldn't they couldn't tolerate it. Um, um, so so I'm now at a perfect storm stage. Um where I've done the research in the us I've done a successful production trial. We have a listing in the offing Ireland is on its needs but I have enough. To leverage which is the story and the and the and case study. So I'm like okay I can pick myself up here and go again like we can do this. We can do this. So if you imagine in the last quarter of last year I'm closing the rounds and actually there was a 2 phase to my round so that ei accommodated um and.

48:03.41
fungalboy
E I being enterprise Ireland like so so that's a state state board.

48:04.30
Karen
So I have another fight and on apologies enterprise ireland with a board 8 board who support and irish and businesses and I ticked a lot of boxes for them at the time and I was female founder impact of the heart. Really good case study like we had 6 figure revenue from day one. Like this thing was selling and so pick myself up and I'm managing stakeholders our shareholders want to come in on the round who are doing due diligence and all of a sudden. Ah.

48:37.57
Karen
Our attention is moveoped to the us. We're also getting this things in Bahrain by the way one of the biggest groups so Uae is opening up so I'm like okay happy days but production's constrained in Ireland and all of a sudden then I'm pushing for production in the us to hit the range window for sprout and.

48:53.77
fungalboy
Big reach hitter.

48:56.98
Karen
Big retailer in the us and um and we had gone on a journey with the with the brewery of excellent brewery in Wisconsin and the only thing they had to do at an administrative level was to secure a wine license which they were. Kind of putting off but they eventually realized that they'd secured the trial first time out which is really unusual by the way they nailed the liquid. Um, and when they went looking for the wine license. They realized that and nothing to do with either party either me nor them that there was a state level objection in Wisconsin at the time which prohibited. Breweries from manufacturing under a wine license so there was a court case in play that I actually was setting a precedence that disrupted the whole of Wisconsin so like talk about lady look right? So I talk about lady look quite a bit and I'm like.

49:40.50
fungalboy
Cost.

49:51.41
Karen
Okay, hang on a second here I've had so much production issues in Ireland I cannot just go to another brewery and say make this product without doing trials but I can't make it with you either and I don't have the time. To find an alternative solution which means I'm not going to hit the sprout range window which means that the listing falls which means the investment falls which means the hes a cards falls. So so back to my tank and even my emotional well-being and my.

50:17.90
fungalboy
Yeah.

50:26.96
Karen
And my life at this stage was pure Hell it was pure hell and sorry one.

50:36.80
fungalboy
Um, well, um, well so so I talk to people. Um and I talk to students very frequently about entrepreneurship and ah and all the case studies tend to be those those success stories almost naturally um, you know the. Guys from um Ben Branson and Seedlipp or um, you know Rob Fink who found a big drop or um merko volfeger from fritzcola you know people who tell you you know Ah, who seem to have the scars that you talk about. But maybe they don't have so many of them and and maybe they didn't come as quickly. And is frequently. Um, you know I think it's important people understand that actually this stuff can really take a toll and and it leaves you to a point where you know I'm wondering. Did you think was it worth it and is is that ultimately what it came down to.

51:29.61
Karen
Like I I guarantee you for every one of those stories there was a rub of the green summer the look played a role and I think um and ah, funny enough I've considered myself a lucky person all my life like you know. I won a car a number of years ago in a in a raffle like I'm a lucky person and but when they came to beacon I don't ask me why like consumers embraced it but at a logistics production level and I I just never got any luck and I became obsessed with that. Well. I became obsessed with and looking at success stories and really the success stories that were a lot of us here. Not necessarily the ones that you mentioned because they are genuine success stories but a lot of success stories we hear and have grown exponentially. We all latch on to what did they do to codify success but invariably. They're not around in 5 years time. It's the ones that had the steady Eddy what we know to be overnight success is Red Bulld was a fifteen year overnight success overnight like that's steadily and grew their business.

52:26.37
fungalboy
Um, yeah.

52:33.55
fungalboy
Yeah.

52:42.32
Karen
They're the ones we need to learn from but they're not the ones that actually are capturing their limelights therefore we've misguided Learnings. So when I say my life was how it was hell at that point in time I have no regrets. But what I did call myself into question at that time was right now. The equilibrium is out. It's off This is my life. I have a lot to bring and I know what I've created but I'm now carrying a 10 town Ton Elephant up a back stairs. It doesn't have to be like this. So What I chose to do was to hit pause and say okay.

53:07.11
fungalboy
Now.

53:16.60
Karen
I Know what we've created. We've created a world class brand and workclass product that actually once it gets the hands of consumers sells itself. Well, it's not that easy, but let's be honest at least it's in a space that I know I'm more class at and but it's proven itself. How do I know to stop take stock.

53:27.28
fungalboy
Yes.

53:36.40
Karen
And actually try and actually hope hope and actually maybe network and and and and socialize the idea that for a drinks industry partner to come on board and actually collaborate or partner or even. Take this journey and finish it. Whatever that looks like and because the play is on the play is on like if you look at the Us alone and last year there was over two hundred selsers launched and the bar couple. They all look the exact same.

54:11.69
fungalboy
Yes, no differentiation.

54:13.77
Karen
There's no innovation tell me the last differentiation tell me the last person the last product that was a genuine genuine category play that was different of which I've created and yet there are drinks industry part I Um, um.

54:34.49
Karen
Businesses out there that are spending millions and billions on innovation and failing at every turn. Um, you know so so look I hope that this isn't the end of the journey. Well right now.

54:51.40
Karen
I've personally taken it with the with the constrained resources that I have and as far as I can and I'm hoping that there will the day will come sooner rather than later where there's a collaboration at play and you know, Um, so yeah.

55:07.15
fungalboy
So Paused not stopped I think maybe interval in that shakespearean play that you talk about you know and and hopefully that there is There is a happy ending a deisx Machina or something will will come in to um, you know I Guess. Ultimately solidify the success that you've demonstrated overcome those challenges that that you know don't sound insurmountable with the right level of invest with the right level of expertise that the really hard part almost invariably is getting the consumer proposition correct and and getting the branding correct and actually. Having a liquid that people love which you clearly do.

55:46.77
Karen
Yeah, and I have olah yeah yeah I think um yeah I think I don't have the heart to say I'm out and I'm on heart and that's why this is a pause for now you know.

55:56.83
fungalboy
But but not only that. Yeah, but not only that you you don't have to because I think one of the most interesting points that you raised was was how your investors as you put it back to Jockey not the horse you know.

56:10.34
Karen
And they still do so so my offer was to give is to return the money and the investors said actually have you went this business up and I said no because there's still an outside chance of that something and. That there may be a pivot or there may be a play and they said as long as there's a 1 % chance you keep our money we're backing you. We're back in the jockey and we believe there's a reason why invest in this and we believe that actually when this happens. We want to be on the right side of the story and actually rather than looking in and for that again I go back to heart that gives me heart. Um, you know so yeah, so since you said look it's it's a it's a dramatic part of this story arc and.

57:00.88
fungalboy
Now.

57:04.21
Karen
It's chapter god only knows what's going to come next if the last few years of out and to go by I am genuinely going to make this has never been about making money but I'm going to make money on the standup comedy or the book one or the other I think the book would be too unbelievable, but the comedy may actually just.

57:18.37
fungalboy
Ah.

57:21.84
Karen
Actually hit the zeitgeist.

57:22.19
fungalboy
Well look we we we have a ah ah great pool of listeners all around the world many of whom are working in. You know, Ah, really innovative drinks businesses who who are working in distribution or in production you know, um, ah or indeed in in innovation for for companies who are. As you say really struggling to innovate and create categories or disrupt categories and you've you've a demonstrable case study here of how you can do that How you can do it successfully So I'm hoping and expecting that really you know this is an opportunity for them. Maybe to reach Out. Um and learn a little bit more about everything that you've you've talked about and because for me luck is the only ingredient that you don't have.

58:04.70
Karen
Yeah, yeah, and look people try people fail it doesn't make me failure. It makes me an entrepreneur I'm hungry more than ever to actually to explore this space and and keep going and it makes me an entrepreneur and that's what I am.

58:20.68
fungalboy
I think I don't have anything further to thank you so much Karen.

58:24.80
Karen
Um, you're welcome.