Concentrate! - Brewer Jasmin Vollrath is thinking hard about how to change Beer forever.

In this episode you'll learn how one brewer is working on a technology that would allow beer to be concentrated down and reformulated back up without an impact on its quality, opening up a whole world of possibilities.

Jasmin Vollrath is a "conservative" German brewer with experience brewing every beer style imaginable but she's working with Alfa Laval on their "Revos" technology. This has the potential to revolutionise how beer is processed, transported and served. We couldn't help but get excited by the ways this could work.

We also talk about the Hagstragavanza beer festival, lighthouses and what teenagers really want from their parents...

Transcript

 good morning. Yasmine it's great to see you again. Ah I am dialing in from my car. So this is a first in.

02:57.61
Jasmin
Um, how you ah nice to meet you. Um.

03:09.43
fungalboy
We've but did the podcast for 2 years and I've never been reduced to recording in my car but hopefully you can hear me. Okay.

03:14.58
Jasmin
I can hear you Okay I can also see the blue beautiful landscape behind you So good.

03:20.24
fungalboy
Yeah I'm I'm a holidays in wicklow. But I found a bit of reception and I found a bit of peace and quiet. So I'm I'm delighted to be able to to make the call I'm dialing in from wicklow where are you dialing in from yesman ah now the last time we met you were in Dublin.

03:31.81
Jasmin
Um, I'm dialing in from Copenhagen Denmark

03:37.96
fungalboy
So what are you doing in Copenhagen.

03:38.65
Jasmin
That's right, ah, since we met the last time I moved here so living in Copenhagen there for nine months

03:44.78
fungalboy
And and who do you work for there. What's what's the what's the job you have.

03:49.43
Jasmin
Working now for alpha laval andfa laval is a brewery equipment supplier so you may have seen it in the 1 order place doing centriuse heat exchanges valves all the fun stuff and they have a new technology which is called revos. And I'm here now in Copenhagen leading the re reverses innovation center so I'm revers innovation center manager.

04:14.37
fungalboy
Ah, okay, that's so Alpha Leval Very big company. Huge suppliers to the brewing industry but also to other um you know dairy and food processing industries would be very well known. Um, and I we'll get into revos in a minute because.

04:28.22
Jasmin
Um, threat.

04:30.85
fungalboy
That's that's really why I want to talk to you because it sounds incredibly interesting for me. But um, you you know you were a brewer for for a long time and I'm I'm wondering how was it you got into brewing and and and where.

04:33.70
Jasmin
Are.

04:47.35
Jasmin
Um, so I got into brewing on my interest in brewing. Let's say like that started when I was around 14 not because I was ranking beo that's important to mention it's because we we talked about yeast in school and now and I'm like.

05:01.92
fungalboy
Um, now.

05:03.53
Jasmin
Just fascinated about what yeast can do and the the biochemistry behind behind brewing. So that's where my interest started and um when I was 19 I just saw an article in the newspaper that a brewery is looking for an apprentice and that's how it started so fifteen years ago already

05:23.20
fungalboy
Ah, and um, where beds with this suit. So yeah, you were you were in Germany and where did you go to to to start your apprenticeship.

05:30.64
Jasmin
Um's kind so I started my apprenticeship in a small brewery. No One probably knows really, it's called Alpez Baha. It's a small one 200000 hectaliters in the black forest and after my apprentice I worked there as ah as a brewer. Um, fermentation maturation and then I went to Berlin actually to do my bromasters. Um, yeahp.

05:53.87
fungalboy
Ah, ah and if you were sort of happily working as ah as a brewer in this small brewery. What drove you to say Well you know I I need to go get my brewmasters qualification. What why did you want to study you know for for an extra qualification.

06:08.81
Jasmin
I think there was always just the hunger to learn more and there was still so much to learn about beer and and to to do more to to grow in that in that space. So and so that's what I've done I'm pretty much told the breweries straight away I I love the place and everything but and I need to go and. And develop further and also to see a bit more rather than choose the black forest I never thought I end up in Doblin or Copenhagen. But that's that's how it goes isn't it.

06:35.15
fungalboy
Okay, but Berlin was your next stop. So what? what was what was that like what was the experiencing of of already being a brewer and then going on to to study more formally. What was that like.

06:46.92
Jasmin
Yeah I won't talk much about how it is being a student in Berlin because it's a great It's a great city but studying brewing and now just the great thing was we've been able to brew beer. We've been able to malt to do the mal things you know everything that I was still. Loads of practical knowledge and stuff we've done but also the theory just went much deeper loads of microbiology chemical analyzers but also thermodynamics and everything that somehow somehow has to do with beer which just we just soaked it in. Very exciting. Yeah.

07:25.61
fungalboy
Yeah, all the stuff I've forgotten like if I ever knew it in the first place I'm sure. Um, so I just the small shutter run down my spine there when you started talking about thermodynamics. So like oh god.

07:29.60
Jasmin
Ah, yeah, some stuff was less interesting but most of it was actually.

07:39.90
Jasmin
I know I.

07:42.96
fungalboy
I Remember I don't remember the thermodynamics I remember not enjoying thermodynamics That's really what I remember? Um, okay, but you so having got your your master brewer then you decided you were going to start traveling a little bit what happened next.

07:46.14
Jasmin
After the.

08:00.92
Jasmin
Yeah, we got the chance to apply at Guinness so that we I always say I had the right beer at the right time with the right person because we've been talking to a few brewers and said yeah, we're looking for jobs now and one of them said. Yeah I have ah 2 open positions in Ireland. Um, you want to see and yeah.

08:18.97
fungalboy
And and ah at this stage. So so you you keep saying we so we may as well introduce. The idea that you you come as a package.

08:24.69
Jasmin
Um, we we came as a package. Yeah me and my boyfriend at the time now husband and me we actually came together to to Dublin then yeah.

08:29.53
fungalboy
Um, yeah, so yourself and Peter moved over to Dublin you you know so overnight you must have doubled the population of german brewers who've ever worked for guinness.

08:46.87
Jasmin
Ah, not not exactly. But yeah, yeah, definitely increased I'm sure some have been happy about that. Some haven't but the germans.

08:53.60
fungalboy
Yeah, well I think it was a a wonderful edition. So um, you you then you like in your time in Guinness you had a number of different roles so you got to see different sides of the business. What what did you do in the brewery.

09:05.50
Jasmin
Um.

09:07.35
Jasmin
I started in the pilot plant. So the research brewery and st james skate which was very small so we had one and a ten hexta liter blue house so hundred and Thousand litres and then I got the chance to actually work in st james escape brewery doing innovation so commercializing innovation so moving from. Thousand litres to thousand hectalitres which was just just incredible seeing that that massive brewery and then I went back to the pilot plant being pilot plant manager so looking after after the plant new equipment. So. Sustaining it. You know looking after the team everything and was a great job decided to go a little bit away from innovation at the time because that was still focused innovation and moved into quality for Africa so did global quality Africa then did global quality for all the agile. And at that point it was time to experience something new and here I am.

10:08.28
fungalboy
Yeah, and and and hence the move to to copen a but I'm just going to reverse back slightly because um, you know in in your time in James Gate you obviously spent a lot of time in the pilot plant. Um at ah, quite an interesting time for goodness I think because. Ah, ah, there was an ah drive to try and create more interesting beers more variety of different types types and styles of beers. So somebody listen to this podcast in the states or or somewhere you know in in Asia might think of Guinness only as being one particular type of beer of of stout. Um. Were you just innovating stouts or was there ah an opportunity to do other more interesting. Sorry not more interesting but more varied brewing styles.

10:53.43
Jasmin
I would say we've done everything you can imagine and they still do. It's um, especially I started I think close to a year before the open gate brewery in the pilot plant opened. You know the the bar that st james's gate has in the pile of land where you can. Feudor fermentation vessels and everything so it was an exciting time to see the bar grow to see how it how it becomes alive to brew beer for that bar which had to be what means which had to be but which was always innovative. You know you've always done something fun or something you love. Ah, could be that one day I said I want a brew of raspberries and here you go a raspberry port or I'm from the black forest. So my favorite was my black forest porter that I that I made once with cherries and and a bittic lactose for the cream. So. It's um.

11:32.60
fungalboy
Yeah.

11:46.40
Jasmin
A pilot land. We've been very free of what we what we can do it was our ideas that just made it to the bar and sometimes the beer made it to the to the big plant. So in st james' escape brewery I think I've done that commercializing innovation for two and a half years and we had 13 innovations.

12:02.20
fungalboy
Yeah.

12:04.16
Jasmin
And just a few have been stout. It was incredible time. Very exciting time for be oval. So cool.

12:09.77
fungalboy
So The the opportunity then is to ah to work on different styles of beer now that you happen to mention porters. But you you did quite a variety of different styles of beer. So and I know you did ah didn you do a I remember Pilsner. Ah, that you did for the 4 anniver of the rinhedes Kabutan yeah, ah and beyond beyond that then let's take ah an example of something that you were commercializing. Um so it might surprise people to to learn that St James's gate at one point.

12:26.34
Jasmin
And 500 yeah Yeah

12:39.51
Jasmin
Um.

12:43.60
fungalboy
Was one of the biggest breweries in the world that was doing dry hopping. Um you want can you tell people a little bit about that because people might have a very romantic notion of of dry hopping and thinking you know are you just you just put some.

12:47.23
Jasmin
Um, oh yeah, but.

12:57.70
Jasmin
And.

12:57.34
fungalboy
Ah, hops into the maturation vessel for beer to give them an extra bit of aroma from from the hops. But it's a bit different when you're talking about the kind of scale you're talking about.

13:07.31
Jasmin
Yeah, this guy we've been talking about was 2000 tectroliters so it was ah massive massive bearer tanks. Um, and still you want to have the full aroma of hops. You know you still want to have the full experience without with keeping the balance and everything. So ah. We started with a beer called Nitroipa which was nitrogenated ipa which is um, very smooth and we added I think 4 different hops for dry hopping and even though it was 2000 hectalire tank. It was still a quite small woman who had to deal with. Six hundred kilograms of hops then in 5 to Twenty liter ah kilogram bags and to put them into into a vessel to solve them and and get them into the dry hopping. What no one knows or wants to forget is that hops if they're not hydrated. Well they get rock solid. So I can tell you I can show you a few pipes in the brewery which we plucked ah centifuges which just dislodgd green stuff and yeah was very exciting and if you think this is industrial. It's very crafty to dry up 2000 hectonliters of beer but it was exciting I was a good beer I mean.

14:07.85
fungalboy
Ah.

14:22.92
Jasmin
Since then as well. My my most favorite is still cit tribepa. That's incredible.

14:24.89
fungalboy
Yeah, so again Cit Ipa being um ah a a cittra hopped Ipa which people might necessarily expect from from guinness.

14:36.44
Jasmin
Probably not now now the same with another one I Really like to us or right a a right pale air also dry hopped. Maybe you throw mold in it. Very nice band especially on draft incredible.

14:47.90
fungalboy
Yeah, well so you had you had this opportunity to work on the in the pilot plant at small scale and imagine creating recipes literally just whatever popped out of your head you were then commercializing and in in the.

14:58.99
Jasmin
And this.

15:05.36
fungalboy
Large brewery working on incredible projects like trying to get six hundred kilograms of hops into ah ah into a vessel for dry hopping. Um, and then you worked you know on on global and and african brewing projects as well. So it kind of sounds like an ideal job for a brewer. Um, what. Tempted you to to move away why why? Copenhagen.

15:28.87
Jasmin
Um, we just decided it was time you know we came for a years contract to to Dublin and then eight years later we just said um I think it's time to to move on to to go back to Mainland Europe for few reasons but especially to to see something new and Copenhagen will stand just a a great opportunity. We got to very great and options our possibilities here. So am. It's a beautiful city.

15:56.43
fungalboy
So when people think of Copenhagen. Yeah, when people think of copenhagen for brewing this. You know is a really thriving brewing scene obviously perhaps dominated by by Carlsberg in people's minds. First of all, but also to all and warpegs and various interesting and exciting. Um, craft breweries. But you've gone for something very different. So why do alpha laval want a really skilled really experienced brewer.

16:18.72
Jasmin
Um, yeah.

16:27.91
Jasmin
Um, I Assume you have to ask them I mean I'm I'm I'm happy they want that? Um, no that that center here. Um in which I'm working the Re reverses Innovation Center is Brand New. So That's a new technology and that's the first time Alpha Laval is doing something like this. Like the test center on site where customers can come in bring in their beer and we process it and and they can see and taste and feel everything straight away and therefore that I have the experience in plant management I have the the beer knowledge and everything I was just the perfect fit. I assume.

17:04.69
fungalboy
So this this center then is is a collaborative environment with your customers who are brewers from all over the world. Um, so not just from copenhager and or or from Europe um, but this. This idea of of it being a revos plant. Can you can you explain to me what what is revos.

17:27.48
Jasmin
So Revos is a reverse of moses that's was um membranefituation here I didn't for a while. So.

17:31.42
fungalboy
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I I I work that one out but just in case, other people hadn't.

17:43.55
Jasmin
So It's membranefiiltration used to concentrate beer. Pretty simple. We. We bring in beer finished product from the customer or high gravity beer from the brewery we concentrated up to 22% alcohol. Um Then the the customer can do whatever they want transportation in trucks. Um, and then blend it back down to drinking strength and it tastes.
Okay, So once you realize what reverse what reva stands for what are you doing with reverse osmosis and then you can just take it from there again. Okay so how having realized that Revo stands for reverse Osmosis. What is it that you're using the reverse osmosis for reverse osmosis is something. People might have heard of you know if if they're if they're not brewers or they're not used to working on a plant. Um do people understand what reverse osmosis is when you have conversations with them.

01:12.59
Jasmin
Um, within a brewing business. Yes, definitely. Also if if you you bit in a food business because Reversal small is is used a lot for water treatment to purify water for the food industry for for drinking water and everything and in our case. We we turn the little bit Around. We don't take the water out of the out of the Liquid. We don't take the the mineral to anything out of the liquid. We actually take the water out. Um, so we have a membranefiltration here and we we pushed the the bare predominantly ba. Through our membrane with 120 bar which is just a very very high pressure and and ensures that that we don't push anything out rather than water. So everything stays on the liquid but the water is going to be taken out and that's how we how we can concentrate or bear up to 22%

01:53.40
fungalboy
Head.

02:08.51
Jasmin
Which has the great impact of are the great possibilities then I am looking at breweries big breweries who might tanker around beer throughout countries throughout the world who tankker around Kecks from europe to the us to Africa to wherever and and think about if you have a 5 % bearer and now all of a sudden you have it at. Above 20 How much transportation you save how much more sustainable your your process is due to the co 2 footprint. You have also considering and you can re reuse the water you know, modern breweries. You can just reuse the water in anything you want because it's pure brewing water. It's drinking quality. You can just feed it back into the brewhouse and reuse it and actually then use the water used for packaging or drinking where it's where it's used where it's needed where it's where it's drunk rather than shipping water around the world. Very exciting.

03:05.48
fungalboy
It It is very exciting so and and and it's kind of kind of mind blowing as ah as a brewer to to suddenly realize that you can actually play so many different tunes you know and service so many different needs because this processing efficiency.

03:09.54
Jasmin
Yeah, yeah.

03:22.15
fungalboy
There's environmental um and sustainability. There's reduced co 2 from transport. There's obviously reduced water requirements and brewing is a very water intensive industry. Um like so there so many people must be listening to this thinking hold on. Um. This this sounds too good to be true. So the the first question I'm going to ask you is well um, you know it is it is what you what else? do you lose so you take the water out you concentrate the beer up. You said? Well, we're not losing minerals. We're not losing. Um, you know the alcohol. Obviously we're concentrating the alcohol up. Do lose flavor.

04:03.94
Jasmin
No short answer. No. The only thing you really lose is water. It is um, especially their concentration systems around or concentration was done before but you usually heat the liquid up. You know you give it some thermal process. And heat isn't great because due to heat you lose flavor if it's too hot. You actually add on off flavors. It's and it's not great. In our case, we're actually running the process at 1 to ° so it's nice and cold and you keep everything in It's very smooth I mean aside the fact that it's 120 bar. It's very smooth. From a flavor perspective for the beer. So and we're doing a lot of tests in the last while and obviously we're checking data and everything but nothing you lose only water we have the same color. We have the same bitterness. We have the same foam we have everything afterwards and I'm a conservative german. Don't forget about that. You know.

04:58.16
fungalboy
Here.

05:00.33
Jasmin
Usually don't play with my beer usually. But I think this is really really good opportunity and a great great technology I'm very excited about it.

05:12.32
fungalboy
Ah, like so it it is genuinely exciting because like possibilities are almost endless. Um, and as you say I'd be slightly wary myself because that we have in the past seen concentration technologies that. Have been very harsh on on beer and um, people might be familiar with that from the sort of first generation of non-alcoholic beers or reduced alcohol beers. Um, where you know there was a lot of you know as you say heat and um, you know vacuum used to to try and. Essentially concentrat up the the beers and and remove the ethanol at the same time but they they led to all sorts of really horrible tasting you know Nonacolic beers I remember brewing caliber. Um you know and and yeah and did you ever taste caliber or were you spirit that.

05:56.61
Jasmin
Um, yeah, oh go share. Yeah I taste I Unfortunately I had to yeah.

06:06.82
fungalboy
Yeah, so not not good is that is the short answer and if you're in the states. Maybe the kind of oduls from the sort of late 80 s or early 90 s might have been a similar kind of product I I don't know if they and I presume they have changed their methodology since but you have like. A very substantial difference in flavor. So I guess that the the first clue for me would be you said as we remove the the water it can be reused so when you taste that water that is removed can people tell a difference and how do you test whether or not people can can pick up. Um. You know a difference in the in the flavor of the water to start with.

06:47.27
Jasmin
So when we take we obviously take samples of that water as well and analyze analyze that and if you taste that it's pretty much just a bit of fizzy water and that's that's all it is Um. We are planning now to send more analyzes out to get more into detail you know and gas come Gc really tune to to figure out the tiniest bit but from our experience it is fizzy water and we get high flavor. Some. Concentrate and at the back Also just back to original beer So We do Sensory Analyzers. We do original against re diluted and we can't see can't see differences and the great thing here with our test center is customers come in and they taste it straight away themselves. You know you It's not like a a call here where you can see people can't really believe that this tastes exactly the same as it did before they are here and they can taste and it's just it's just incredible Also to see their faces. How surprised people are that it tastes exactly the same camp. But.

07:57.78
fungalboy
But that's wonderful because that ability to work with customers directly then is is the attraction obviously rather than just you know doing something in isolation in a lab and then perhaps waiting years for the results to to um you know to be visible in ah in an actual brewery but I'm I'm curious. So you know is it a taste panel. How do you?? How is it that you actually verify that. Um you know that the the beer is as good as it was before it was concentrated once it's concentrated and then and presumably diluted back down to um or liquor adjusted down to. Ah, the correct strength again.

08:37.20
Jasmin
So here on site. We don't have a professional sensory panel I mean we're still you know in no brewery we're still a machinery supplier. Um, so we don't have a a professional sensory team but we are working closely with wheelb in Berlin which is probably known to. Everybody somehow in the brewing business um to support us of sensory and they have a professional sensory um team and to help us with that or what means to help us with that to to do the analyzers for fresh but also for shelf life so to see.

09:07.61
fungalboy
And that's a critical piece isn't it because if it if it if it tastes just as good as it does fresh. Are you able to verify that in three six nine months or whatever you think that the shelf life of the beer is that's also being tested.

09:25.94
Jasmin
Yeah, yeah, and so far I mean we're unfortunately not at nine months yet but um the trials we've done so far we can't see ah negative impact on shelf life I was assumptions so far is that we actually increase shelf life by concentrating the bear.

09:40.25
fungalboy
Wow.

09:42.70
Jasmin
Because we still keep the same conditions. We keep the same Ph funny enough we take water out but we're not changing the Ph of the liquid. Um, both for capacity same we still have the hops. We even have more hops because we concentrated which is good for Microstability. We still have Alcohol. We have high alcohol and now we have. Still an oxygen-free environment because we have deorated water and everything is automated to ensure that we have to write environments So the assumption so far as we increase shelf life.

10:10.47
fungalboy
You Wow! Okay, and that makes sense when you when you expand it like that. Obviously both hops and and alcohol in higher concentration. Should you know, give it greater microstability if nothing else. Um, so now we now now I'm getting Excited. So now I'm thinking hold on so you could use this internally within a brewery potentially to um, you know, get greater capacity out of existing infrastructure. That's that's one very narrow use. Um you could use it. For transportation. So I'm thinking there are lots of breweries who brew beer in in one location and physically package it in another. Um, potentially you know in in another country potentially on another continent at times. Um, and and this will.

11:04.14
Jasmin
Yeah I think this is where this is becoming exciting. Yeah.

11:06.97
fungalboy
Massively reduced. Yeah so mass massively reduce their transportation bill the the CO2 impact and and the environmental impact of of transportation alone. Um is is. There's a very energy intensive process. You know. Or is it just pressure that you require so therefore it's actually maybe not not so heavy on on the the demands to actually make it happen in the first place.

11:36.27
Jasmin
So We still we still working out the energy consumption of the units. Um, especially as this unit is just a test unit so we have also rental units and then no one's for cell and we're looking at them for energy consumption and everything but theoretically you have a high pressure pump which needs Energy. You have a chiller. Which needs energy but we keep it above and freezing. So It's not like um and be going below below ° so it is drawing some energy for sure.

12:06.90
fungalboy
Yeah, but um I guess you're you're not taking liquid down from the beer that you would be concentrating would be at relatively low temperatures anyway, so you're not taking something down from ambient down to 1 or °C it's probably stored it in around 4 or 5 anyway.

12:14.57
Jasmin
Um, yeah.

12:22.55
Jasmin
Let's let's assume the standard process will be to concentrate after filtration and in brighter storage. You might even have it between 0 and and ° so it's cold anyway, the chiller is needed because obviously the pump is generating some some heat.

12:26.17
fungalboy
Yeah.

12:38.16
fungalboy
Yeah, okay, so so like we're looking at it from a couple of different angles. We're saying yeah, it's not just the headline. Um, you know ah reduction in transportation costs or energy usage. But actually there is a little bit of energy usage to make it happen.

12:40.10
Jasmin
But beer needs to be constantly cooled but that's it.

12:58.60
fungalboy
Probably something which isn't isn't isn't that onerous. So now. Now you get into well okay, so could I do this for large scale for for tankers. Could I start could I start to do this for smaller packages for for kegs. So rather than sending a fifth liter keg halfway across the world. You know if I'm drinking. Um you know a an english ale in Boston or I'm drinking a um you know a pint of Guinness in.

13:23.11
Jasmin
Um.

13:37.81
fungalboy
Um, you know the United Arab emirates you know that keg has transported you know across an ocean we we always say you know it's crazy that we're transporting water with something which is 92% water across water. Um, but could I concentrate it in in kegs and maybe.

13:50.44
Jasmin
Um, yeah.

13:56.77
fungalboy
Then Liquor adjust it at the point of dispense now.

14:01.64
Jasmin
Um, you can you can so this is so this is ah currently also on the development which is called redraft and and will be displaced displayed first at probably b in none back in November where you can actually.

14:10.16
fungalboy
Yes.

14:20.88
Jasmin
Poor you concentrate and and you get a nice fresh beer in your point. That's exactly what we're doing yeah really exciting? Yeah yeah, now you're talking massive amount of cakes just reduced on the.

14:27.83
fungalboy
Now Now now we're really talking. Okay, so now I.

14:39.33
Jasmin
See on the land now you now you're thinking about stadiums restaurants pops. Also their storage area thinking about brewery keck population. You know they don't have I don't know how many kegs floating around the world need much less capex and New Keck and new kicks everything yeah Yeah very exciting. Yeah I have a little test unit here in my in my place as well. Which is which is very cool.

14:59.26
fungalboy
So this is. This is so phenomenally exciting. So people might have been starting this podcast thinking. Okay and talking about some kind of plant machinery. This is genuinely potentially revolutionary beyond I think what most people might. Might first imagine you because the possibilities are endless. So let's let's kind of um so I get a bit excited and I need to calm down right? and I and I know that your your sensible german head will will keep me there but I look at this now and I think okay so.

15:33.17
Jasmin
I See no good. But.

15:42.73
fungalboy
Now I have the possibility not only to um to liquor adjust to the let's let's call it the nominal the standard ab V So could I in Theory have the same unit with connected to the concentrate which is now your redraft system.

15:51.62
Jasmin
Are.

16:02.64
fungalboy
Which is now liquor adjusting it I'm making the the carbon dioxide and you know whatever gases that are needed for the beer could I now give that um and say instead of giving me my 5% beer I'd like you to give it to me at 2.5% please

16:19.97
Jasmin
Of course you can ah ah from our from our equipment point of view. You can you can do all that you can decide if you want to drink it at 9% at 5 at two I'd say that the only the only issue you may have here are regulatories and the law and um, but.

16:35.95
fungalboy
Yeah, ah or no, no, but so we're so we're in blue sky thinking we're just thinking. Okay, so um, so now I can I can perhaps have the same beer at 9% or ah, two percent if I'm you know? um.

16:37.68
Jasmin
But that's nothing I should worry about. But yes you you can.

16:53.25
fungalboy
If I'm thinking that I want to limit my alcohol consumption I can say well you know I I know that beer at 3 point 2 works best for me or um, there's a does a duty change in some countries at 2.8% abv. So if I ask for it a 2.8% abv it's going to be you know 50% a euro cheaper than. Um, if I ask for it at 5% so there's all sorts of really weird and interesting possibilities is it also possible that perhaps then you have a redraft system that perhaps blends different types of concentrate. Potentially. So for example, let's say we talked about dry hopping earlier. Um, so.

17:32.30
Jasmin
Um, that's interesting now.

17:36.11
Jasmin
Yeah, let's get a nice pale ale out of a lager and an Ipa that's too strong for your chase or something That's a very good one? Yeah yeah, yeah.

17:46.92
fungalboy
Well I'm just beginning to play with the possibilities of of now you've opened up a whole raft of different choices. So Maybe it's a very crude comparison right? And and I don't like it but that I think it's probably undeniable. If you look at the way soda fountains work. Um, or that the the soda gun that people might be familiar with from if anybody's ever worked behind a bar. There's it. There's a soda gun which um, you know remix a post mix um adds carbon dioxide. Um.

18:08.72
Jasmin
Um, yeah.

18:24.57
fungalboy
You know, carbonated water to you know your coke your diet coke your 7 up your ginger ale and potentially your fanta if you're in Germany I guess ah, but that is is something like that possible. You know, standing on the bar. Obviously you know it would need to probably maybe be a slightly higher. Quality. Um, you know more precise equipment but it's something like that now possible for beer where you've just different buttons giving you different beers.

18:53.25
Jasmin
I mean I don't know how the soda gun works but um, back to I'm german you know we love our schpizy which is a coke and phamics and and there you just use 2 tops kind of you start with the coke or fana or you know you have your your ratio you prefer anyway.

19:00.82
fungalboy
Yes, yeah.

19:12.77
Jasmin
And so something like that is I mean definitely possible and you probably still need your 2 lines but I will I will bring that seriously bring that on the table because if you can get these 2 lines in the in the draft machine and people wouldn't even see f.

19:26.82
fungalboy
No, they wouldn't see it So you you would just be able to as you say perhaps something a particularly hoppy concentrate with you know, something like a pillser and then actually you're able to play different tunes. Everything from Ipa through to.

19:34.51
Jasmin
Yes.

19:40.61
Jasmin
Um, yeah, yeah, it could have one tap and top 3 different bears. It's different abv interesting. Do you do you are you interested? interested in changing your job I mean.

19:44.34
fungalboy
Ah, hellas.

19:52.53
fungalboy
Ah, so that So the the point is.

19:59.40
fungalboy
Ah I I Just like asking silly questions. That's that's that's what I like to do um but what what? I'd love to know though is um ok I'm going to pause for one sec. My son has come out.

20:04.25
Jasmin
Um, that's a good one.

20:14.62
Jasmin
This decision.

20:17.38
fungalboy
Do have an interview hello. Yes I do have an interview sail hello to Yasmine I could I charge of this oh he wants ah oh oh he's interrupted me for some really something really really important. He wants the charger for his phone.

20:20.66
Jasmin
Hello hello.

20:37.80
fungalboy
All right? Thanks so I be but another 10 minutes most okay sorry um, yeah I mean that was uns scheduleuled teenagers and their phones. Ah okay, so ah, where was a.

20:37.88
Jasmin
That's important actually.

20:43.80
Jasmin
No problem.

20:50.16
Jasmin
Ah, yeah, well close.

20:55.62
fungalboy
Um, so I I Just love asking silly questions. That's that's all I do but I'm starting to get so intrigued by the possibilities here and actually I think it goes even beyond what we talked about because at the start you mentioned it's mostly beer. Are you telling me, you can do this for. Other liquids.

21:16.37
Jasmin
Ah, yeah, you can pretty much do it for everything you you can think of. So um, we were running trials with Wine. We've been talking about cider and predominantly it's it's beer because that's that's a focus but um, your imagination. There's There's no. Limit You know you can keep us everything and we try. Yeah.

21:36.80
fungalboy
So as as ah, my my yeah so my my instinct goes to to to beer obviously but I'm thinking about wine I'm thinking about all those South American wines for example which I you know if I go to the off flat since I buy a bottle of wine for my wife and she wants.

21:44.64
Jasmin
Um.

21:52.76
fungalboy
You know an argentinian malbeck or um, cabinet cabernet soignon or something that that wine has that bottle has been bottled in Europe um, most likely so that the the wine has been transported in bulk to you know a plant in Europe where it's bottled. Um. But those large tankers of wine you know I presume they're two fifty hec Liters or thereabuts or maybe even they're bigger I don't know um, could suddenly become much much smaller. Um, or if we if we go to our logical conclusion here. Maybe I'm going to the off license and actually. I have you know a like a chalkboard like I have in in um, in tap rooms or in in pubs and I'm saying oh that there's a malbeck or there's a ca soignon and I can get that re um, readjusted to and bottle there and then.

22:49.77
Jasmin
That's a great idea as well. It's like you you would have your your oil bottles. Also so get your olive oil out of ah but now you're just planting your your wine now.

22:59.64
fungalboy
Ah, so I I do genuinely think that this has enormous potential. Um is it. So so the customers who you were working with um, are you allowed to talk about who they are or is that still as.

23:11.60
Jasmin
Um.

23:13.93
Jasmin
A little bit too early. Yeah, a little bit too early I'd say yeah.

23:15.92
fungalboy
Prototyping and little bit to earth. But ah is it safe to say that there's a lot of interest.

23:22.88
Jasmin
Yes, yeah, and it's also very exciting because we're at the very beginning of this journey. You know we have this test center now and we we are talking to customers and we're actually renting out a unit in next few weeks as well to a two a customer. So.

23:25.90
fungalboy
I okay.

23:41.19
Jasmin
It's a very exciting time at the beginning now to to be there and to to see that interest also to see it growing because back to playing around with beer. You know everybody's a bit skeptical at the beginning and but yeah we see we see hi.

23:52.32
fungalboy
Ah, yeah, ah.

23:59.54
Jasmin
Ah, interest, very good.

24:01.28
fungalboy
Um, ah what? what are the next steps over the next few months and the next year that you see as being you know, big obstacles that you need to overcome things that you need to do to prove the technology is as exciting as as the potential.

24:19.28
Jasmin
Um I wouldn't say obstacles though because I'm I'm very confident that once customers come in and see and taste and they're going to be as as passionate and and convinced as I am think it really is just um, getting a customer in showing them what we do proof. That this has no impact on flavor or quality or anything and then I'm pretty confident. It will take off quite rapidly and I'm not an optimist.

24:44.45
fungalboy
Um, ah and and I share your comment. Ah um, so the the conservative German Brewer has turned out to be a you know a a an optimist of the highest order.

25:00.92
Jasmin
Here you go who would have thought that I didn't That's it. That's it.

25:03.27
fungalboy
Maybe maybe your time in Ireland has ribbed off you? Ah so how do people get in touch. So if somebody's listening to this and they're intrigued and they have a brewery or they're they're working in ah ah in any operation whether you know it be brewing or wine or cider.

25:15.47
Jasmin
Um.

25:22.69
fungalboy
Or or even spirits. Perhaps we've got some some really interesting and and dedicated listeners from you know who indecision making roles who are probably being challenged over and over again to think about ways in which they can improve quality or or very topically increase sustainability.

25:29.46
Jasmin
Um, this is how.

25:42.47
fungalboy
How should they get in touch who should they talk to? um you know do you have are you still looking for partners.

25:50.61
Jasmin
So if the brewery has their local alpha la val support anyway, definitely reach out to to your local salesperson. They're more than happy to help and know everything. Um, otherwise you can find me on Linkedin just reach out and I get you in contact with the right people. I don't want you now to write down the right name so anything. So just that's the best to do I'll go alpha laval online. There's loads of information for reverses about rebos online know and. And come by visit us in Copenhagen have a taste that's important.

26:28.22
fungalboy
Absolutely So yeah.

26:43.80
Jasmin
Um, hand.

26:43.29
fungalboy
Ah, outstanding I will provide a link.

26:52.12
fungalboy
Um, I and I would love to take you open that offer the next time I'm in Copenhagen. Um, but what I would I urge people to do is we'll provide a link in the show notes to um to the alpha laval website and and also to your Linkedin not to.

26:58.13
Jasmin
Um, definitely better.

27:09.97
fungalboy
Ah, to overwhelm you? Um, but Asma. Thank you so much. This has been such an interesting and educational conversation and and I find it genuinely exciting.

27:21.40
Jasmin
Thank you Thanks for your time. Thanks so much was great to see you again as well. So.

27:27.51
fungalboy
And you two say hi to Peter.

27:31.48
Jasmin
Will do say hi to everybody you see.