The Purposeful Wealth Podcast - The Nine Accelerators: Rethinking Retirement with Justin King

Justin King, a Registered Life Planner® and coach, is one of the UK’s most qualified independent financial advisers. Motivated by helping people find fulfilment, he supports others to take control of their lives and thrive in retirement. Justin King is the author of  'The Retirement Café Handbook: 9 Accelerators for a Successful Retirement' and host of his retirement planning YouTube channel plus The Retirement Café Podcast.

Join Jonathan, in discussion with Justin about making your retirement a fulfilling and purposeful one.

Find all our useful links on our LinkTree - https://linktr.ee/jonathangibson

And why not visit us at: https://www.wellsgibson.uk/

And get a copy of the book, Purposeful Wealth here: https://amzn.eu/d/0i7wWgJy

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Welcome to the Purposeful Wealth podcast where we explore how to secure everything that you value so that you can live with that sense of clarity, contentment, and certainty. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Justin King, who is a highly respected, chartered, and certified financial planner. He's a retirement planning specialist. He's the owner of MFP Wealth Management in Christchurch in Dorset. And he's the founder of the Retirement Cafe podcast. Justin is also the author of the Retirement Cafe Handbook, which I have here: The Nine Accelerators for a Successful Retirement. And in this episode, we're hoping to explore what a truly successful retirement looks like, and one that's beyond the numbers, and how purpose, health, and financial clarity come together to shape a fulfilling chapter in your life. Justin, a really warm welcome to the Purpose of Wealth podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Thank you, Jonathan. It's uh great to always chat to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. Well, it's great to have you on this podcast. Tell me, Justin, what first led you, I suppose, personally and professionally, you know, to focus your work so deeply on retirement and ultimately to write the retirement cafe handbook.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

So I mean interestingly, that it, you know, I didn't wake up one day and going, I'm passionate about retirement. But sometimes, you know, I live in Christchurch, well, in fact, a small village um in Christchurch called Mudderford, right by the coast. And um I've been here, you know, 30 odd years, and got some good friends who are local fishermen. And, you know, chatting away to the fish fishermen about what they do and what they work is I started to realise that they really go where the fish are. They fish where the fish are. And they fish different fish at different seasons. And when I was when I was setting up my firm MFP Wealth Management, you know, lots of people had said specialise in something, and you know, I didn't have a massive affinity with um, I don't know, um engineers or teachers or or or or there was nothing jumping out at me. And then one day, you know, chatting to Pete the Fisherman, who was telling me about fish where the fish where the fish are, um I suddenly realized that it was kind of staring me in the face. Christchurch and Bournemouth has been the retirement capital of the UK for centuries. Um, the amount of people who continually um sell up in, in essence, in their home counties or different parts of the UK and move down to Bournemouth, move to Christchurch, move to Mulliford, where where my business is, it's huge. And and you kind of go, well, these people are in transition, they're trying to work it out, they're trying to work out, make sure their money lasts, they're trying to work out a new lifestyle. They often needed a new advisor because they they'd move from where they were. And and suddenly it kind of, as I say, it was staring me in the face as fish where the fish are fish where the fish are. But these people have a big need. And if you could set out to service them, and then also because it's such a transitional time, it's like, you know, there's the real significance opportunity to provide value. Um, so that's really where it came from. Um, was purely, pure, purely of a chat with a local fisherman.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Brilliant, brilliant. That's just uh seems like a the perfect segue into to um you know to my next question because you you you you're often your your book seems to challenge this idea that retirement is not an ending. And in fact, in in chapter three, you talk about vitality, choice, and joy. Um instead of you know, people will start with, you know, how much do I need to retire? But you're going deeper than that to talk about this the essence of vitality, choice, and joy. I mean, how how should how should people really be thinking about retirement today?

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Well, of course, you know, the the the the number, which is what everyone focuses on, really, have I got enough? What is enough? Everyone starts from that position. And you know, that's a fair question, because of course, you know, we're trying to we're trying to fund our future life. And that suddenly that suddenly that factor of I'm turning off my income and now I'm relying on my resources is a significant change. Shall I get it? Why wouldn't you focus on the number? But of course, actually, it's a bigger question because we all know, and I'm sure you do with the work, the great work that you do, Jonathan, with your clients, is that some people's perfectly adequate and comfortable retirement is 30,000 pounds a year, and and other people's, it's 130,000 pounds a year.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

Um, and that's because they've chosen a different way of living. Um and that's absolutely fine, that's absolutely right for everyone to be able to do so. But but you can, it is is, you know, if we were talking about someone at the end of their retirement life, at the end of their lives, going, you know, was it all about how much money I had and how much money I had to do things, or is it actually about the quality of that retirement and actually was it meaningful, was it purposeful, was it, was it, was it full of health? You know, these are all the things that are key, not just actually having, you know, 130 or 30,000 pounds a year coming in. Of course that's important, and of course people want the answer to that. But actually, there's there's many more questions that need answering.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Sure, sure. And and and the idea of I think this idea of vitality is um is perhaps overlooked.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Would you would you agree? Yeah, yeah. Because again, as we know, what's all the point of all the money in the bank account if you're not well?

SPEAKER_02 6:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Now I appreciate there are certain elements of your health that are um just you know, just the lottery. Um but there is also significant impact that you can make on your vitality by staying strong, by staying fit, by eating well. Um and therefore putting that as a key tenant into your retirement plan. And you know, often enough, especially when we're working, we um it's easy to go, I'm really busy, I'm too busy to exercise. You know, I'm too busy to, you know, like we go possibly because of the work pressures or family life or whatever we're up to whilst we're working, we shortcut our meal choices, we shortcut our exercise. Um, it they're not they're not the key drivers to that part of our lives sometimes. But actually, maybe retirement is an opportunity to to re-engage with what we actually all know we should be doing with our ourselves. In fact, none of us need any diet advice or any fitness advice at all. We we've all got the knowledge. Um it's um it's it's just that we actually it's the implementation and the execution which is the key, the key thing.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And and it's interesting because certainly when you know, whenever I meet with clients that that it's clear their overriding objective is to retire, it's that question of what are you retiring to is is often what people maybe haven't thought a lot about. Um and I you know, and I think as well, you know, you've you've heard stories of the you know the the busy business owner or entrepreneur or so who they love their they love their game of golf on a Friday afternoon or maybe even a couple of times in the week, and and they think they're going to play lots of golf in retirement, and actually what they find is when they've got all the time to enjoy what they thought they love, it it it means it doesn't have the same impact on them because of course when they were working the golf was a release for them, but yet when they don't have the work, it's not maybe quite as enjoyable. Yeah, it's challenging, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 8:41

It is, and I think I I think this is the key thing about trying to find meaning. What what is a meaningful retirement? And absolutely let's have golf in there if that's important. But you know, as human beings, you you know, I I think if we take a step back and just think about also how amazing is it that we're talking about retiring. It can't be that many generations ago that the idea of retirement, the idea of spending 30 years of your life playing golf and and and amusing yourself, right? Is is it's just is frankly amazing. I mean, it's an amazing opportunity, isn't it? Therefore, and uh and and I I harp back to this kind of let's let's make sure that we have a meaningful retirement, is that we were we would all like a meaningful life, I'm sure, but but it sometimes that the meaning is, you know, did we get clarity? Or actually we were we were chasing a career, we were chasing providing for our family, we were paying the bills, we were just trying to, you know, kind of as there's an element of survival, isn't there, as we go through our working life, you know, how do we get the next promotion? How do we how do we juggle that the the family life and and and the relationships and all the things that are important? And all of a sudden you get to this next point and it's like, whoa. And I think there is this natural feeling that you just hook into right, I can now do that holiday a year, I can now do three holidays a year, I can do all that stuff that I didn't do before. But I still think we need to go beyond that and go, you know, what would what would make this just quite an if you were writing a story of what that 30-year or 20-year um life um retirement looked like, if we were going to write your story, what would you like to be in that story? What would you like to be the epitar at your funeral that, you know, Jonathan, you know, wow, what a retirement he had. He did, boom. This is who he was as a man. You know, that you could if you were listening from your casket or from from from the clouds from the clouds above. Um yeah, that's a bit dark. Hopefully you're not listening from your casket. But if you, you know, if you if you if your spirit could hear but hear all the the comments, and you go, you know what, you know what? It was a flipping amazing time that was.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Yeah. And and you sorry, in in in chapter four of your book, um, you introduced this idea of the nine accelerators for a successful retirement, and and and I I certainly, you know, being a financial planner, couldn't disagree with any of them, but yeah, I hadn't really thought of these things as accelerators. You know, why accelerators and and how did and how did that framework come together, Justin?

SPEAKER_00 11:49

Um I think it was because of the you know, the the book content came from four and a half, five years of doing the podcast. Um and these and these themes started coming out, you know, the different people, um uh, you know, different people I was interviewing you, interviewing, you know, about what was important, and then you started to go, okay, so there's just another element here. There's a there is this kind of purpose, um, vitality, self-care, the financial planning aspect, etc. But actually, what are the elements within that, you know, in the financial planning? Okay, so there's financial planning, so we get a plan. Great. But what are the what are the what what will accelerate that financial plan? What are the things we can add into the? I suppose it's the cake mixture, isn't it? What are the elements that we can add into the what is important within a financial plan? Um, and I would say, and I you you you you've probably you, I'm sure you would contribute to this, but I would think for I would say the investment strategy is really important. You know, sure. If we if we just stick it, if we stick it in the wrong stuff for 30 years, you know, that's gonna erode all your plan, isn't it? I mean, it's gonna be chaos. Um, and in fact, one of the reasons people come to us, because they've got a basket full of stuff and they go, I don't quite see how all this fits together. Um, you know, so so and then and then from the from sake again in the planning, we can we can challenge some of the or or get people to consider stuff that they may not have considered before. I what is the effect of inflation? I mean, we all know the effect of inflation because we see our our train prices go up or the uh or the or our or our utility bills go up, etc. But of course, as we know, we do that on a year by year and we all have a little complaint about how much things have gone up by. But over a 30-year period, that's that, you know, if we don't get a handle on that, that's going to be really um it's gonna destroy destroy our retirement plan. So I suppose all these little accelerators throughout the um throughout throughout the framework was because of all the themes that kept coming through from all the people that I was interviewing. Um you know, interviewing people about, you know, that are talking about the vitality and about the self-care. Well, okay, so we we've we've got to prioritize, you know, like strength training. Yeah. You know, okay. Because we all talk about fitness, and actually most of us know that we should go for a walk more often, and everyone's got these devices now that tells them how many steps they do, and they're all competing with each other and all that type of thing. But actually, actually, if you ask the real experts, they'll say, they'll say, don't prioritize walking, prioritize lifting weights. You know, so these are these are the elements that you kind of go, ah, okay. Yeah actually, let's get that accelerator in there, and that will then give us greater vitality. For longer, for later. You know, uh in my book, I interview a lady who's still alive. She's 97 now. She came around for dinner the other night, our our ex-next-door neighbor. Um, and she tells me, she tells me she's still doing a plank, you know, the plank, the exercise, the plank, yeah, for two minutes every day.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

At 97. You know, so she's maintaining her vitality, she's maintaining her fitness. And you can tell, you know, because she she walked around, she came around, she's she does carry a stick, um, but and she gave up a bicycle three three years ago, you know. Um, but but I but her investment in herself over that course of her retirement, her in her fitness, is is absolutely paying dividends.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Yeah, brilliant, brilliant. Yeah, I mean, the the one you know, I don't think any financial planner could argue with uh with the nine accelerators you have listed, but I think it was great that you wrote it was number three, it's never too late, exploring opportunities to fulfill your dreams and ambitions. Because often in life, you know, I I I when I could speak personally and say, you know, one of the things that I I love when I watch something like Professional Master Chef or so forth, that I I'm always saying to my wife, I'd love to learn how to cook like that, I'd love to learn how to cook like that. Where would I find the time to cook like that? I'd often like to think that something like that could be, you know, potentially part of my retirement plan, if that makes sense. But um, you know, do you do you find in your own experience that that that you actually do see clients embarking on something that they've perhaps not done to any great extent during their working life?

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Yeah, yeah. To give you an example, there was one um there was a couple I was talking to, and I and I was taking them through some deep questions that I cover in the book um about trying to uncover, you know, really what's truly important to them. What, you know, and I just uh yeah, I'll guarantee you know, I'll say to them, of course, what's important to them is about the money and the tax and the investments and all those things that people come to us traditionally for. And I and I and I say, absolutely, we're going to we're going to deal with those, but can I just ask you some further questions? And and out of the questions that I asked, one one lady said um the thing that she'd missed or never got to do was uh she'd never been a she wanted to be a nurse when she was growing up. And she uh then her and her husband had a family very early. I think she was 19 with her first child, and she had four children. And four children, as you know, Jonathan, is you know, that's that's a busy life. It's a busy family life. And her husband was away doing business, lots of business, etc. That, you know, uh so that she was fully occupied for a long period of time to do that. So as she sat in my office in her late 50s, going, I never got to be the nurse that I wanted to be. So tell me more about that. And she explained that that's all she dreamt of as a child, and she started doing the training, but in essence, she'd dropped out to look after the family. And that's a choice that she made, and she was very happy and comfortable with that choice. But she there was a bit of there was a little bit of um uh sadness, I think, that she hadn't fulfilled that role. So we we talked more about that, and I and I asked, um you know, uh was there any experience that she could foresee kind of going forward that she could, you know, what was what was it about being a nurse that was important? And she said, Well, I would have liked to have cared for people, I would have liked to help people, I would have, you know, felt proud to be part of a team and and and would have enjoyed that type of work. Wow. And then, you know, again asked, Well, uh can you is uh is there a people, is there organizations maybe today that would still benefit from your obvious passion in this area? And she thought about it. And then after a little silence and uh some some thought, she said, Well actually, maybe there is some opportunity to do some volunteering to to to to help out a at a hospice to you know um Yeah, and and then the next time we met, she'd she'd gone on and done this, and she was now, you know, doing volunteering at a local hospice um and and thoroughly enjoying it. And uh, you know, there was I don't think she was doing she wasn't doing it for monetary reward, but she had revisited the passion that she'd had when she was an 18-year-old at 57-58 and found new purpose, new meaning. And and felt that she was doing something great in the world. But it it was not only delivering to the people that she was helping, but it was delivering in space to her.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Um and and I and I think that's you know, this is this is a bit the bit about meaning, isn't it? This is the bit that actually sometimes revisiting the things that we probably put to one side because we thought that we're we were wasn't we weren't able to do so, or didn't have maybe the skills or the opportunity. It's amazing what we do have at 57, 67, etc. We have a we have a lifetime of experience that people will will um you know will grab with both hands if we offer it to them.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Sure. And it and and and often you'll find, and I think we're all guilty of this of starting with self when it comes to our free time and that sense of entitlement, or I deserve this because I've worked 40 years. But but certainly from experience, it fee it seems that the people who are the most content or um fulfilled, if you like, are those that have have lived a more meaningful life and and actually lived their life for others or through others, if if you like. Um and I maybe that's maybe that's what you're talking about in the case of this lady.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

Yeah. I think so. And then I think we've also got to we've got to make sure for anyone who's who's listening to this who hasn't yet retired, and possibly hasn't got all the time. But again, you mentioned there, Jonathan, about the the the the cooking. Yeah. Um and and and you know, my ears lit up as well because only only uh three weeks ago, in fact, I think when we last met, I just my my children had bought me a cookery course at a local hotel. We've got a place called the Tuton Glen down here in Christchurch. It's quite a quite a famous hotel. But they're they have a cookery school. And um I went, you know, they bought me for my birthday a a cookery experience, and I went and spent three hours with the chef with some other people and learned to cook some Korean food. And I had a fantastic time. And I wonder about that, and then I'm like, okay. So that's interesting. But it w if we unpack that even more, I can imagine you enjoying that experience just as much as I would, as I did.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

But then go, okay, so it what is it actually about that? Well, most of it about cooking actually is about cooking for somebody else.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

So not only do we learn the skill, we actually then provide value and and enjoyment to other people.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

And then you go, okay, so if you unpack that even more, so that'll be lovely to be able to do it for our own families. But I wonder if there's people in the wider community you could do it for. I know. You know, who who are the people who are struggling? Maybe it's actually showing people at the food bank who, you know, are struggling there. Can we can I can I actually show you how to cook something with this? Something that's really tasty and really interesting and and and and and and and you educate and inspire at the same time. You know, there's so many things, isn't there? There's so many opportunities to follow those little threads. You mentioned cooking. I felt an affinity to that because of my recent experience. And then you go, so how could I use how can I how can I learn that and actually deliver value with value into the world from that? And I'm sure that these are the things that when we are on our final days of our lives, and if we if we're sitting on the veranda and we're reflecting back, we'll go, we'll go, wow, wow, you know what? That that little time when I helped that person do that, that was the most meaningful part of my life.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

Yeah, yeah, and not and not just living life for self. And it's and it it probably brings we've probably touched on this in terms of what about the next question that you know was going to ask you was that um you know, as as qualified, highly qualified financial planners, um, you know, we know the importance of of getting the finances right, but you know, you know, although that's necessary, it's not sufficient for a successful retirement, is it?

SPEAKER_00 24:07

No. No. Um and I think that I think this is the the I think to an element this is the the the danger of thinking that it just is, because before you know it, um well, armed with a spreadsheet and some kind of AI facility, people will be able to put together a Excel retirement plan. Yes with with with with significant um confidence that it'll be right. But the Excel spreadsheet is never going to just kind of gently query with them about okay, so what is it that we need, what elements do we need to get into your retirement plan that will make it fantastic? Because all the spreadsheet will deliver is just a set of numbers. And we want to take we want to tailor those numbers when we're delivering our planning, we tailor those numbers to their life. Shall we spend more in this year than that? Shall we do that round the world trip? Shall we, you know, um build that well in Bikina Faso? Whatever it is that's important to them, we want to make sure that it's actually attended to. But as we all know, if we just try and do stuff ourselves, um, well, we just end up getting in a bit of a I don't know. If talking from my own experience, I end up getting in a bit of muddle. I I benefit from having in some insight and a second opinion.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Yeah, absolutely. Very, very important. And and and from your work with clients and you know, podcast guests, I know you've interviewed lots of people on your podcast, Justin, on on the on the subject of retirement. I mean, what do you what do people most commonly underestimate or overlook when planning for retirement?

SPEAKER_00 26:05

How long it's gonna be.

SPEAKER_01 26:09

And it's interesting. Sorry to jump in there because you have that as one of your accelerators, is actually you know, one of the accelerators being think 30 years, you know, plan for 30 years. And I think that's hugely important. Yeah, sorry, continue, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 26:27

I think um I think the statistics say that if you've got a if you're advising a couple uh and they're you know 65, that type of age, that one of them will live into their 90s if they're in reasonable health when you meet them, you know. So planning for that length of time is that's a you know, financially, that's a hell of a challenge, isn't it? It is. I mean, I mean, for God's sake, we don't we don't know what's gonna happen in 12 months' time, let alone 30.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

So um I think uh I wonder whether I don't think people really consider the decline in health. Um because it's hard to imagine when you're in full hook in great health. It's hard, it's kind of hard to imagine being old, actually, isn't it? You know, our 20-year-old self could not imagine our 40-year-old self, and our 40-year-old self could not imagine our 60-year-old self, and our 60-year-old self can't imagine an 80-year-old self. It's just it that's a really difficult thing to do. So not only are you planning for massive long retirement, you don't know how you'll be. So now, you know, we're we're we're starting to hit some massive roadblocks in this whole thing called retirement planning, aren't we? It's like, well, hold on, and then and then, of course, one of you may not be well. Yeah, and that's a way to derail a retirement as well. You know, let's try and get stuff. If the things are significantly important, I want to learn French, I want to learn to cook, I want to, I want to um look after the grandchildren, whatever it may be. I want to do stuff. Let's try and get a lot of stuff happening um in the early years where we we know we've got vitality. Because you never know when the vitality is going to be swept away from you. Um, you know, we all win, we all we all we all walk a very paper-thin line, don't we, between health and and ill health.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. We do, we do, and and I think, you know, I this whole idea of 30 years is is just so tough. And actually, there are so many unknowns as well in terms of you know, you talked earlier about inflation, but but actually, you know, there's there's inflation, you know, um the the basket of goods that we buy, but we you know, we are you know, are we thinking clearly about our lifestyle expenditure, you know, the holidays, the city breaks, the the golf membership, um, the eating out, because all of these things seem to grow at a faster rate than inflation.

SPEAKER_02 29:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

And then and then you've got luxury goods and and and not knowing what's around the corner if you have family. I mean, I've I've met with clients recently, and um both their daughters who have left home and had had got married and have had children, they would never have in their plan, um, even before they became clients, they they they would never have anticipated that they would be dealing with helping them out through divorce, for instance. You know, they're thinking about well, financially independent, that's great. The the the children are no longer on the payroll, you know, it's often the the sort of term that's used. And and and now you know now they've they've got divorces to deal with and and and making sure that they're both their daughters are re-established, if you like, in a in a nice home, because it's not just a case of providing them with a home with a with a um uh you know for themselves, they're gonna need rooms for their children, and um and uh you know, huge, you know, there's bound to be certain parts where the financial plan needs to have a contingency, I would have thought.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Yeah. For for the unexpected and and it's up to us, isn't it? Again, it's where this you know us us driving the spreadsheet is is better because we're gonna go, well, have you thought of this? And and and what happens if that happens. Yeah, you know. Um, and sometimes people, of course, are a little bit kind of like, oh well, it's up to them, you know, they'll sort it out, etc. But when when push comes to shove, everyone everyone does help out in their family, you know, they they do want to step in and it and it does it does change things. I think the other the other thing that I've noticed is the longevity of clients' parents. Yes, you know, so you know, I'm dealing with you know couples who are you know mid-70s and dad dad's still around with dementia at 98. Yes, and that's been going on a long time. Now that's another thing that significantly impacts people's retirements because there's less, you know, that you people don't want to go away or do travels, and then it's then then it's the also the challenging thing of well, one partner of the couple maybe want to be going, hold on, I'm I'm losing my retirement here because we're caring for dad, you know. Um, and and the so there's just so many moving parts, aren't there, to try and navigate. Um, and again, I would suggest that I've been instrumental into that of in that relationship of going, okay, so can we buy in some care to give you guys a break? Yes, you know, to allow you to go and have two weeks away because you know, you may be doing this for a long even at 98, someone might live to 103. Yeah. Um, and all of a sudden you're not 75 any longer, you're 80. And we don't know what's happened to your health. So the there is a there's a it's a really, isn't it? It's a really interesting, could be an amazing, but also there's lots of landmines. There's lots of landmines to navigate through that 30 years.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Yeah, there there are, and you and you do you do have circumstances where um you're you're looking after clients who you can tell that they they want to break free of the day-to-day employment or work and what they're involved in, or whether it be their own business and so forth, but yet that roadblock is that they can't spend as much time maybe traveling as they would like because they do have an elderly parent that they don't want to be away from for too long. Um it's yeah, it's it's it's hugely challenging for sure. And I and I think one of the other the other um tough shifts, which probably brings me nicely on to the next question, Justin. Um, and I can totally relate to this. I'm not sure if if you'll be able to relate to this personally, but I certainly can, is that is the idea of moving away from a work-based identity. So, you know, personally, um this, you know, this is my life, it's it's my business. Um, I'm hugely passionate about helping people to live the life that's important to them without the fear of running out of money, helping them to invest sensibly and so forth. Um, I really love putting clients' lives at the very center of our conversations, as I'm sure you do. I'm involved with the professional body or bodies as you are. Um I I sort of feel this is my identity, and the prospect of moving away from that identity, um I qu I find quite fearful. Although I know that you know, I I suspect I'll be a grandfather at some point, and obviously I'm a husband, I'm still I've got mum, I've got a role there. Um, I do enjoy my golf, I enjoy keeping fit to an extent, but but I still see my identity, the big part of my life, letting go of that. I mean, how how can people prepare emotionally and psychologically for that transition?

SPEAKER_00 34:40

So again, I I think it's to retire to something rather than to retire away from something is important. Of course, that you are going to retire from something. So you let's say that you're, I don't know, a doctor. So it's uh that's a very clearly defined thick thing, isn't it? Being a doctor. Um say you're a GP, you work in a practice, and you've got to the point where your NHS pension is going to pay out, you know, and and you and you may have you know have done your lot, you know, 40 years of advising patients, you know, you might be going, you know what, I've had enough, I need to retire from this. Yeah. But you are then no longer the GP, and therefore, who are you? And if you can retire to something, I think it's a really positive move. If you can go, you know, I'm still providing some value into the into the world, or you know, I'm just finding something that's really fulfilling me, um, that it then becomes really purposeful. I I I find the people who literally um, you know, the big thing to happen to this morning today, let's say it's Monday of the week, is that there's a you know an optician's appointment. And that is the thing that's gonna happen on Monday, and everything revolves around the Monday appointment to the opticians. Um, you know, on Tuesday I'll go to the supermarket. You know, it's the hold on. There's more to this. There really does need, I think, need to be more to it. I think you need to say, I'm going to retire to something. I think we're very fortunate is that um with our with our businesses, is that we could probably do this for a long time. You know, I've got a I've got a my old boss, Martin, um, is 80, I think he's 86 now, and he still goes in 8 till 12 into his brokerage business. And he has a team of people, you know, there's quite a big workforce, you know, 10 to 15 people working there for him. But he's still the MD and he still sits with some clients, and he has a another advisor sitting in with him who kind of, you know, bring probably brings him up to the kind of speed, etc. with it, you know, he understands his he understands his limitations, um, but he still enjoys doing it. And again, I think if you can if you can do your work in an environment for longer, but in the way that still serves you. So it's not a drag, it's not a pain, it's not a, you know, it's something you still enjoy doing. I appreciate if you've got to the end of your tether from a very stressful occupation and you've just gone, right, this is time to finish. Do it. Take a little break, get your bearings, but then work out, you know, within three to six months, work out what is going to be the most amazing retirement. So you create, in essence, a new identity. Um, as I know I mentioned earlier, we've got a uh the when I uh uh made the little quip about the building wells in Bikina Faso, I say that because we have a client who does that.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

That you know, he's a trustee of a of a of a very, very small charity. I think it's called Myra's Wells. And they build wells in Bikina Faso. Now that's his identity. In fact, so much so, I couldn't tell you what his identity was before he retired. Because because you know, uh because that's who he is now. You know, he is the trustee of this of this of this um very small charity, and they all work for absolutely nothing. Um, and all the donations go into you know, helping out a West African country with helping the kids have fresh drinking water. Well, you know, there's his identity. And I say, well, I mean I would be quite proud to have that identity.

SPEAKER_02 38:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

You know, not that I know anything about what he does, but that's quite cool.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Yeah. Yeah. So the the the message is being being very clear about what you're retiring to seems to be the you know the clear thing, but yet if what you're currently doing still brings you um passion, joy, I suspect, and it you know it's not eating you up, there's a lot to be said that part of that transition could mean that you're not actually walking away from from what what was your identity, if you like.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Yeah. I think and I think it's I think we just need to find out what it is. And also, I remember um uh I can't remember it's one of the one of the one of my guests on the podcast, he told me something very key. It was about his dad used to give him his dad when he retired, he used to pop and see his dad, and this was kind of in the 80s, and he'd turn up in his Ford Escort. Yes, you know, his 1.3, his 1.3 XR3i or what have you, maybe that was the 80s, I don't know. But anyway, he turned up his X escort, and his dad would give him a fiver for some petrol. And 15, 20 years later, he still was pulling on his dad, and his dad had continued to give him a fiver for his petrol. And and you know, the the thing about the thing about continuing to do something, kind of staying in the real world, somehow connected to commerce or in some shape or form, I think is quite key because when you you know, you know, you and I know, if we dropped out of this world for 12 months and then came back in 12 months later, you know, let's say we, you know, Musk has put us on Mars for 12 months as an experiment. Um and we came back and and we were going, we we'd be out of the loop very quickly, wouldn't we? We'd have to, you know, because it's a fast changing business, isn't it? I mean, you know, the the rules and regulations and the investment world changes daily. Um and and it would take some it would take some effort to get back into the into into the groove. Um and I think you know, don't lose your um don't lose your equity of of of being part of the real world too quickly by just playing golf.

SPEAKER_02 40:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Um because then you only occupy an echo chamber of the golf club. Um and and I'm I'm gonna go at golfers here, but I mean this that could be from the cycling club to the bowls club to the U3A, whatever it is that you're passionate about, but actually try and have wide and varied interests. And if you're still somehow, maybe even just on a voluntary basis, connected to some kind of commercial organization. And you know, charities are commercial organizations, you know, they they operate in the real world by being part of that, yeah, you stay much more connected. And I I'm pretty positive that's really good for your mental health.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

Yeah, yeah. I mean, no doubts about it. The joy from giving, basically. Yeah, yeah. And and you know, the the you know, my you know, my dad struggled, my late father when he retired, um, worried about money, and he maybe because he couldn't, you know, he all you know, my dear mum, bless her, was always, you know, would want to change the carpet in the dining room, even though it was a room to use once a year or something, you know. But but the point was even when the not even when the numbers stacked up, my dad, my late father would worry about money. And um, and I think that's very much the case. You know, when the numbers stack up, many people still worry about running out of money. I mean, how how just how do you help people move from that fear to confidence or contentment um and to help the answer that question about how much is enough?

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Well, of course, it's really challenging, isn't it? I mean, it is and and I'm quite scared a lot of the times with uh financial planners who give absolute cast iron guarantees that this financial plan, you know. Now, without a doubt, you and I do advise some very wealthy people who really I mean they can't get through their cash. There's just no way that, you know, you know, if you've got 10 million pounds invested and you're spending £100,000 a year, you know, uh and you're 65, you're not gonna blow through that cash. So the so these people don't have a problem. No, but that's not the majority of people, is it? The majority of people actually are going, can I afford to retire? At what point? So I think this is where we have to put in those guardrails and go, let's just really break this down. What do we know is a what covers the bills? Unfortunately, in the UK, we have the state pensions, you know, and if you've got a couple, we've got 25 odd grand a year coming in. Um and then what else additional income? And and what's the kind of worst case scenario can we continue to provide? And do we need to get some further underpins like annuities and that type of thing? Or i even Factor in look the worst case stock market crash would be this drawdown, but we're going to protect you by having this much worth of cash, so you can ignore that and it and you'll be okay. And and and and you've just got to rationalize, isn't it? And also just point out a bit like I mean, I come back to the the sea analogy, you know. Uh uh in my previous life, I was a professional sailor. And if you were sailing, you know, if I I know that if I if I point the boat from from the UK, if I point the boat west, I'm I'm gonna make I'm going to make the Americas.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

You know, so it genuine I've got a course of action. I I I I know I've got to go that way. And and I'll get and even if I lose all my compasses and GPS and all the rest of it, and I just go once once a day, the sun's setting in the west, and I'm gonna keep going that direction, I'm I am gonna land in the Americas. And sometimes you've just got to be as vague as that. We're gonna point the boat in the right direction.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

And based upon the sails and the winds and et cetera, et cetera, you know, based on evidence, we'll still hit the Americas. We'll still get there. But we don't know what the sea conditions are gonna be all the way. We don't know whether people are gonna be ill, we don't know what equipment's gonna malfunction, we don't, you know, we we don't know an awful lot, but we're still gonna keep going west. And I think that sort of comes down to the financial planning. We are gonna add lots of stuff into this, but we can't give you because nothing in life is guaranteed except death and taxes. That's the only guarantee we'll give you, but the rest of it, we're gonna keep pointing it in the direction that historically um you know you'd have had a good outcome. You will hit the Americas.

SPEAKER_01 45:51

Yeah, it's a great analogy. And that's all that's all I can do. It's a great analogy, and and you know, and in and in your analogy, I suppose if the boat was one degree out, well, you're always going to be reassessing and reviewing where you're at to keep make sure you're on course, aren't you? And that's why we when we do financial planning, we we um we meet with our clients at least yearly so that we you know we can review and reassess and uh the assumptions and so forth to make sure that we're on you know we're on the right course. Yeah, and for you know, financial forecasting has to be has to be pivotal um um when it comes to financial planning. Otherwise, what have what have you got?

SPEAKER_00 46:29

You know, and I think we also, you know, we're also protecting people, aren't we, from running into rocks? You know, we're also putting in kind of guardrails to go, as you rightly say, you know, we're gonna check our course every so often, we're gonna make sure we're okay. We're gonna re-appraise, you know, how is the you know the health of our clients? How is the health of the yacht or the boat? You know, have we picked up any barnacles? Have we got any engine failures? Have we got a mass that's causing problems? Have we ripped a few sails? What isn't what do we now re-appraise and reassess and read and redirect based on the resources and the environment that we've got today? Because the environment is continually changing. And in our environment in financial planning, that's health of the client, it's ambitions of the client, it's tax rules, it's it's investment returns, it's inflation, it's so many things that we reassess the environment and then we create a new course to steer. Um uh based on our current knowledge. But we that's all we can do. It's all we can do. We can only base it upon our current situation.

SPEAKER_01 47:32

Yep, yep. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Couldn't I couldn't agree more. Um, I wanted to come back to the um I suppose I'm I'm asking this question later rather than earlier, but um maybe because it does feature in chapter 10 of your book, um, you touch on chapter four on the nine accelerators, the big D. And you you talk about in chapter 10, you you elaborate and talk about dementia, that the big D. And and I think more more recently than ever, I friends um close to us where both their both their parents had dementia. We've lost we lost uh two clients this year who had been in care homes for five years. Well, one of them was five and a half years, um, again with you know dementia. It's a big thing. This is this is becoming ever present. And you know, how how should from your perspective, Justin, how do you believe people should think about their longevity alongside financial planning, particularly with regards to dementia?

SPEAKER_00 48:43

Well, it is a scary topic, isn't it? And um I think I think it as always with everything is i i uh address it early and go, so if this starts to happen, what do we do? And uh be very aware of what decisions can be made and and who's got the you know, we've got everything as I know you'll have, but have we got every you know the powers of attorney in place? Have we got all have we if if capacity is lost, what do we do? And I talk about having a little kind of emergency file in a in essence, in your in your um, you know, at home, which has got all your legal documents in, but in the event of me needing care, this is where I want to go, this is how I want to be treated, this is how I want you to live, and to have that conversation um early. And and even so, and even to the point of if you think it might be happening to you, and I'm I think in my experience, people seem to be aware that their memory is fading in the early, in the very, very early onset, and go, do you know what? Be brave, put your hand in the air and go, I wonder whether this is going on. And if this does go on, how are we gonna deal with it? How are we gonna in this rational point of view? How is this gonna play out for for you and I? And that's a deep conversation between a couple, and even more difficult for a soul soul person who's you know on their own, and go to their next akin, to their power of attorney, going, Do you know what? They will have also observed it. If you've observed it, they'll have observed it. Um, and go, okay, let's let's let's work this out. This is what this is what I'd like to have happen. This is possibly how I'd like to be cared for. Um, so you know, there's there's um there's a it's a big conversation. And again, coming back to the vitality aspect in the accelerators about looking after your health. Significantly, if you are weight training, eating well, having a low alcohol uh consumption, um, these are all factors that can really help um from from from from the experts that I've spoken to in dementia coming on, but uh also accept that actually it's gonna have it's gonna affect a lot of people and and be ready for it. Um uh yeah. And hopefully medical science seems to be improving all the time and uh and they're getting more and more insight into um in into dementia.

SPEAKER_01 51:44

Yeah, so so uh really in what you're advocating for is in the in the same ways we might encourage our clients to have a a letter of wishes to accompany their, you know, to accompany their will, um, that actually we maybe need to be thinking about that same type of thing, that letter of wishes in the event of something like dementia.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

Yeah, yeah, and and having an honest conversation with your family and the family around you and go, look, you know, it may, it may be, it may be I only want you to care for me at home until a certain point because I don't want it to impact your life to a crazy amount. Yeah. You know, I'd like to there is a home that I'd quite happy to go into, or buy, or can we create the resources? Let's talk to Jonathan, let's talk to Justin about the resources that I've got and how we can buy in help into the home so that it doesn't derail your partner's possibly retirement, or just maybe derail that your your children's kind of lives. Because of course, if they're bringing up children and they've got children and they're trying to look after dad, you know, who's got dementia and having to come into the house twice a day, you know, you can be going, no, hold on. There is the resources, I want you to spend it on people coming and helping look after me. But yeah, it's it's it's that you hope. I always talk about insurance policies, right? I'm sure you, Jonathan, you insure your home. And I don't need to know how much for, and I don't need to know how much it costs. But let's just imagine it's 400 pounds a year. What you're really saying is that you're quite happy to go out into the street and tear up 400 pounds and throw it in the throw it in the road. Because you do not want any return from that insurance policy. You're very happy each year for it to have been a total waste of money. It's a bit bizarre, but you're absolutely happy as Larry that it's a waste of money because you only want it paying you any use to you when the disaster strikes. Um, and again, it's the same kind of analogy coming back to let's talk about let's talk about long-term care, let's talk about help that I might need, who knows what I might get. It might be dementia, it might be anything else, but there could be a scenario where this happens. I have a stroke tomorrow, and bang, someone's now looking after me. Okay, what do we now have? Well, actually, we'd already planned for this. We know the local care homes, we know the local care providers, we know what the cost, and we had the money set aside to help pay for that. So it may that may be a total waste of time. And again, coming back to my sailing analogy, one of the things we used to do as sailors, not no good if you're halfway across the Atlantic, but if you're if you're sailing down the down down the coast of Spain and a storm brews up, you know your port of refuge. You know where you're gonna go and hide for a little while until this until the gale blows through. Um and and and that's in essence that kind of planning aspect is what you're gonna do with your clients and you want them to do, and just have this honest conversation of going, you know what, and especially when sometimes you can have that conversation with, we've had a great year, your investments are up, you're having a lovely time, your holidays are great, you're it's all amazing. Can I just kind of, you know, darken this a little bit and have a conversation about if you had a stroke tomorrow, what would we all do? Yeah. Is do you know where the power of attorney is? Do you know how to work on it? Do you know, do you know who the care providers are? Do you d etc, etc.? You know. Um the one example I've got of that, I've got a couple I've worked with, and the gentleman um of the couple knew he was going to die. He'd got a diagnosis and they'd given him 12 to 18 months. And when we were chatting, he was relatively, you know, philosophical, knew what was going on, knew there was enough money, but it was all about preparation. It was all about if June needs this, I'll change the name, but if June, you know, is she okay? She got this, is she got that? And we had 18 months to plan in essence for his departure, right? For his death. Now that was, I mean, and sad that he died, but brilliant that we had that opportunity to plan. But often, often life doesn't give us that opportunity to plan. So that's where we need to actually put the plan in the drawer, doesn't it? And go, okay, let's go through the things that could happen. Well, I could get dementia. I could have, you know, I I could die, I could have a stroke, you know, and we're ready for it. And if you guess what? If you live to, if you live to 97 ago to sleep in your sleep, um, you know, forever, you know, you die in your sleep, sorry, you forever, and you never had to act on that plan, then so be it. It was a waste of time and money.

SPEAKER_01 56:31

Yeah, yeah. And and and that probably brings on the this aspect of longevity. Um, in in the final chapter of your book, you talk about um I think is it Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett that used to use this model of inverting? So, you know, rather than thinking about what does a successful retirement look like, actually, what does a rubbish retirement look like? To start by answering that question, it's probably easier to get that clarity about exactly what you want your retirement to look like. And do you do you think do you think that's the difference between people that people who genuinely thrive in retirement and those that don't, that they've possibly approached their retirement in that way, that they've thought they've thought clearly about what they don't want to happen in retirement, if you like?

SPEAKER_00 57:22

I wonder. It'd be interesting to know this, but I wonder how many people actually do think deeply about their retirement, or actually retirement just happens to them. Um, and that's not that's not being super critical, but I can just imagine that happens. You know, because life often just happens to you rather than it's by by by design. Um but I do think if you it it you know it is by inverting problems, it is a really useful exercise to go, okay. So I don't know, only surviving five years, that'd be a pretty rubbish retirement. Or being ill for most, or being ill for most of it. That'll be pretty rubbish, you know. I've got 30 years of being in a um being in uh an invalid, you know. And gosh, if you're already in that position, then again, I would be like, okay, so how do we still make it the best time you've got? Um, but it but if you've got your health, then how do we ma how do we maximize it? Or how do we maximize any any situation? Well, I know how I know how I'm going to you know blow myself up. I'm gonna find nothing to do, I'm gonna have no social life, I'm gonna have no interests, I'm you know, uh, and I'm gonna eat poorly. Um, you know, uh then okay, well, okay, so what's the inversion to all of that? Well, I'm gonna make sure I engage in social groups, I'm gonna make sure that I've got a a community around me. Um I'm gonna make sure that you know I've I maximize my health as much as possible. So, yeah, the inversion thing I think is a in all of our lives is a really strong uh model. Yes. Um because actually sometimes it is hard to go, oh yeah. I don't exactly know. I don't especially for a time it's thrust upon you. Yeah. You know, suddenly one day you're working and another day and the next day you're not. And I do know plenty of people that's happened to. They did they weren't actually planning to finish their careers. Um their careers got finished for them. You know, there was a big redundancy, um, and they got cut from it and they didn't get employed again, even though they tried to get employment but they didn't. And all of a sudden it was like that's a that's an early retirement, but it wasn't a chosen retirement.

SPEAKER_02 59:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 59:34

What I do think there though, again, is that flip side of going, just because you're not doing you're not being employed to do the thing that you want to do. To give you another example, I've got another client of mine who fantastically quit his job because it was stressful, d difficult, done 30 years, just had enough. We worked out cash flow that he could be okay. Off he went. And he got some charitable work and he started driving the uh local minibus, taking people, picking up people and taking them to the hospital. So there's a charity-run minibus locally who's did that. Anyway, we were sitting down and I uh for an annual review and I said, you know, the costs seem to have gone up a bit, and you know, I'm I'm it's looking all right, but it's not, there's not lots of fat on the on this financial plan. Um and he said, Oh, what should I do? I said, Well, what I you've still got equity at the moment. What I wonder, is there some way I don't expect he said, I can't go back to that job. And the job was a high pay. I said, Well, I don't think actually you need to go back to that job. To be honest, if you could just bring in another 500 pounds, a thousand pounds a month, um, so comparable to what he used to was a tiny amount. Um I said, that would really, really make sure that your plan is absolutely really robust. Um so he went home and he thought about it and he went back off to the charity and he said to the charity, he said, I'm gonna have to cut my hours. I still want to do, you know, maybe two days a week, but I can't do four days a week for during the minibus, but I'm really loving it. I'm finding great value and purpose with live the minibus. And um he calls me up later and says, I've you know, um, well I've spoken to the charity, he said, um he said the really annoying thing is they they wouldn't let me cut my hours. Oh, I said he said the good news is though they're now paying me for those hours. Yeah, and you know, fascinating, isn't it? Fascinating, you know, and and and again, uh just as he he kind of reversed it round and said, I can't do it, and they went, You're so great at what you do, and you're so valuable to us, and you've already done you know 12 months in essence for nothing, we don't want to lose you. We can afford to pay you a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:53

Yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:55

Um, and so he's still getting the value and the purpose out of his life, but he's also made his financial plan really robust.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:02

Yeah, just by earning a little bit of money. Yeah. Um, Justin, just in closing, I'm conscious we've been talking for an hour now. Goodness, time passes by quickly. Um I mean, just in closing, if you could if you could give one piece of advice to say someone in their 50s about preparing for a retirement beyond saving and investing, what you know what what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:30

I would actually like people to go what would a what would a really meaningful life look like if I was designing it today? If I could do anything I could choose choose to do. Anything and I couldn't fail. What would it be? Because somewhere in there is a life of significance, and I'm positive when you have a life of significance and meaning that money seems to kind of just fall down the priority order. Um and it will be okay, the money thing, because because of how purposeful a life that you're living, that you will get rewarded, a bit like my friend there who driving the minibus for the charity. You know, he he he he he's he's in essence he's retired to something. Um so address that at all stages of your life, and it doesn't have to be just the point at retirement at that point of transition. And actually, it may be that you start to go, you know what, actually, I could probably do this job for longer, but I'm actually only going to choose four days a week or three days a week now, but I'm actually gonna retire at 70. But I'm gonna, but but uh, but I'm also gonna you know create the create the ideal life just on a piece of paper. Yeah, what would it look like? Yes, and then and and and then create all those kind of layers and transitions and and planning, etc., within that. Yeah. Um, and I would I I appreciate that, you know, we we've all got limited resources um of time, but I would sit down with you or me or someone like us and have a conversation about this. You know, just have a conversation and go, you know, what is it that I can do?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:26

What would an and and what would a what would an amazing life look like? Um because if you can build that into your retirement plan, then that's that would be fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:36

Because I think the the isn't isn't that they they say that if you can, if it's if you can think deeply about the things that you're passionate about, that you love, the things that you are good at, or you have a a knowledge about, and it's something that people who are close to you can wholeheartedly see you engaged in. I'm told that that there's three good areas for determining or defining what what what that could look like in in your retirement is that is that is that is that true?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:18

Well um you know I have this final question of you know if you died tonight, what what would um in what way would your life been incomplete? Yeah, what are the things that you've missed out on? Um and those are the elements, you know, the Stoics were so good at the you know Marcus Aurelius, etc., of mark of of of meditating on death. And bizarrely, and I do this regularly. Now people think I'm really morbid. But but if you do think that you might not be here next week, it really brings you into the presence. Yeah, and then you can go, oh yeah, I must I must do that. I must call Bill, I must see Aunt Madge, I must do that cookery course. I must I've I get all those elements that in there, and you go, yeah, that now now if I did die tonight, my life could would be would have been complete. Of course, there's things that you can't you can't see a grandchild that's not been born. You can't, you know, I didn't get to be a granddad. Well, I'm sorry, but you know, there's there's an element of stuff that you can't do. Yeah. But but but that if there are things, anything, anything that is currently within your control, put it in some kind of plan. And you don't need to do it within the next week. But if you say to me, yes, you know, I'd love to do a cookery course, I'd say, I'd say, reach out. And when people are trying to buy you some tap for Christmas, go, no, no, no. Actually, this is what I want to do, and I'm gonna get it into my plan. And create, you know, for the next year, create what I call an ideal year and write in how much is on holiday, how much is time with friends, how much is time with family, how much is time for yourself, how much is to, you know, break that down from ideal year down to ideal week. This is what this is what the week's gonna look like. I've got time for golf, I've got time for friends, I've got time for me, I've got time for sleep, and then an ideal day. And it's like, well, I go to the gym and I and I and I eat well and I and I and I have time for this and that, and I do my work and and and and kind of mold it down. And it doesn't mean this is not to the point that I'm scheduling every moment of every day. Yeah, but it's darn helpful just by going through that exercise, especially as we get to the end of the year or the beginning of next, I don't sure when your podcast is going out. But but actually just sitting down, you can do it any time of the year, and just go, what would an ideal next 12 months look like if I could perfectly design it?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:00

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:01

And then and then and then everything unfolds from there.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:04

Yeah. Justin, I just want to thank you for such a thoughtful and generous conversation. Um, you know, it's very clear to me your work is a powerful reminder that retirement isn't an ending and and that this is just a transition, and it's certainly one that deserves just as much and you know, and intention, clarity, and care as every every other stage of our life. Um, I would say is for anyone listening who wants to go deeper, I I'd really highly recommend Justin's book, The Retirement Cafe Handbook, Nine Accelerators for a Successful Retirement, as well as Justin's podcast, Retirement Cafe Podcast, and we we will include links in the show notes. Um, if today's episode has prompted you to reflect on what a successful retirement looks like you know for you, then that's a conversation worth having. Um, in the meantime, thank you for tuning in to the Purposeful Wealth podcast, and until next time, take care. Thank you.