Financial Planning Explained: What Actually Matters (After 30 Years in the Industry)

In this episode, Jonathan Gibson is joined by Jacqueline “Jackie” Lockie, a highly respected figure who has helped shape the financial planning profession in the UK over several decades. 

Together, they explore how financial planning has evolved—from the introduction of the Retail Distribution Review (RDR) and fee transparency, to the rise of cashflow modelling and behavioural finance. Jackie shares how these changes have transformed the client experience, helping people better understand their finances and make more informed decisions. 

The conversation dives deep into what truly defines great financial planning. It’s not about products—it’s about people. Jackie highlights the importance of understanding clients’ life stories, beliefs about money, and long-term goals, showing how meaningful advice goes far beyond numbers. 

They also discuss:

•  The difference between good and truly great financial planners 
•  Why client behaviour and engagement matter more than market performance 
•  Common mistakes people make with money—and how to avoid them 
•  How to choose the right financial planner and what questions to ask 
•  The importance of professional standards and qualifications 

As Jackie approaches retirement herself, she offers thoughtful reflections on what a “good retirement” really looks like—emphasizing identity, purpose, and giving yourself time to adjust, rather than rushing to fill every moment. 

Key Quotes from this episode:
“You can’t put a price on financial peace of mind.”
“A truly great financial planner starts with your life, not your money.”
“We don’t know what we don’t know—and that’s why good advice matters.”
“The clients who get the best outcomes are the ones who engage.”
“Don’t let anyone else define what retirement looks like for you.”

Find all our useful links on our LinkTree - https://linktr.ee/jonathangibson

And why not visit us at: https://www.wellsgibson.uk/

And get a copy of the book, Purposeful Wealth here: https://amzn.eu/d/0i7wWgJy

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Welcome back to the Purpose for Wealth podcast. Today's conversation is a special one because I'm joined by someone who has quite literally helped shape the financial planning profession in the UK. Jacqueline Lockie or Jackie has spent decades at the heart of the industry, not just working with clients, but raising standards, influencing education, and really helping define what good financial planning really looks like. In today's episode, we're not just talking about money, we're talking about how financial planning has evolved, what truly great advice looks like, the behaviors that shape long-term outcomes, and what a lifetime of working with clients and financial planners teaches us about wealth, decisions, and the life itself. And as Jackie now steps into retirement herself, we'll also be reflecting on what a good retirement really means and the wisdom that she's gathered along the way. So whether you're someone thinking about your financial future or choosing a financial planner or simply curious about the maybe the human side of money, this conversation I hope will have something for you. Jackie, it's uh an absolute pleasure to have you with us and a big welcome to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Thanks very much, Jonathan. It's great to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

Yeah, great, great. Well, you're looking really well, and you're certainly looking like you're um you're uh on that transition of retirement, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Yes, absolutely. I'm trying, definitely trying.

unknown 1:48

Good.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Jackie, you've spent decades shaping financial planning in the UK. What has changed most for clients over that time?

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Um so I think there were a couple of things that have changed um from a client perspective over those times. And the I think the first biggest change was the introduction of RDR back in 2004. Um, and that essentially helped clients really understand and focus on how much they were being charged. So essentially, what the retail distribution review was doing, um, it's a piece of financial services legislation that forced all financial advisors and financial planners to separate out the cost of the advice from the product itself. So if you paid a fee then you would see that fee, and if they were charging commission, then you would also see how much commission was being charged. But essentially, there became a kind of quasi-ban on commission because you had to pull those two elements apart so that the clients could really understand the value of the advice that they were getting. And then if they were advised to have a particular product, for example, the cost of that product was separated from the cost of the advice.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Yeah, yeah, it was a it was a big change. For any for any of our viewers or listeners, RDR was the retail distribution review, essentially that big review of the distribution of financial products and investments. You're absolutely right. And I and I remember that I I remember that um that period greatly, and I think it was absolutely a welcome change to certainly if the financial services was to move from being um industry into developing financial planning as a profession, it needed it didn't it definitely needed to happen.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Yeah. And I I think also um it helped clients really understand what they were paying for. Um, because you know, back in those days, you know, early 2000s, I would talk to a lot of clients and they would say to me, Well, I can't afford advice. And, you know, um some people listening or watching today might be thinking the same thing, I can't afford it. Well, how am I going to pay? Times are tough. Um, you know, I have other important things that I want to pay for and plan for. How can I afford advice? But the reality was that they were already paying, actually through the nose in many cases, um, through commission in those products, which was actually penalizing the growth in a lot of those products. And so they were still paying, and but they thought they were getting advice for free. Um, and so I think, in kind of pulling those two pieces apart, it's a driven down the cost of advice and also the cost of products by actually highlighting those two differences. And so I think, you know, one of the things I think uh learning for me over the years is that we all have to take responsibility. We've we can't get something for nothing, and one way or another, we're paying for it. And if we want good quality advice, we need to be prepared to pay for it. And in the old days, pre-2004, we we were still paying for it, actually, a hidden amount, and now that that all that transparency has come to bear, so you know exactly how much you're paying for the advice and how much for the product. So then you, as the consumer who was seeking that advice, you can make that decision um exactly whether you're prepared to pay that or not.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

Yeah, yeah. Just that this probably answers my next question. Um, I was going to ask you what you think clients benefit from that simply didn't exist 20 or 30 years ago. And it probably is that. It's that transparency, isn't it? It's it it's knowing what they're paying for. Is there anything else? Do you there's anything else that you think clients benefit from um you know today that that that didn't exist 20 or 30 years ago?

SPEAKER_00 6:00

So there are there are two other things actually. Um, you know, a huge amount when I look back over the last 30 years, a huge amount has changed um for the better. And one of those two other things is cash flow planning. You know, back back in the early 2000s, um there was barely a cash flow tool in sight. There was no real competition in the market, there was essentially one tool out there at that point in time. Um, other tools came from around the world, one from Australia, one from the States. Um, and again, it focuses on, you know, usability in front of a client so the client could see if they were going to be okay. Because, you know, I think for me, that is the question, as you know, I'm sure we'll get on to when you're looking and think getting towards retirement. The question that I was most asked was, you know, am I going to be okay? Do I have enough money? Um, you know, do I need to do anything drastic with my finances before I stop work completely? Um, those kinds of things are can be easily and actually visually demonstrated in a very simple fashion by using cash flow tools. Um, and so I think that's probably the other, you know, the second major driver after RDR. And I think the other thing that has changed is changing the market and actually is having a big impact at the moment more recently, is the behavioural finance aspects. You know, because back in the day when I was an advisor and a power planner, you know, I would say to my clients, you know, as far as your attitude to risk goes, you know, I have to ask you this because the regulator requires it, but you know, where are you on the scale of one to ten, one being shoving it all under the mattress, and ten being it betting on the 230 at Doncaster at the races? Um, you know, where where on that um on that frame do you feel? And everybody would kind of go, um, five, you know, everybody was kind of in the middle. And to understand uh actually more, you know, more quality, qualitative questions that we could be asking to really understand the drivers behind why our clients do what they do, what gets them out of bed in the morning, and and actually where their concerns are about money, um, how much they're prepared essentially to risk in the markets for investment purposes, um, but actually understanding what their objectives are also drives a big picture of you know how much they actually need to, you know, essentially put into the investment markets, um, or in some cases, you know, they might not need to, they could just keep everything in the bank account. Um, so all of those conversations, I think those three elements have had a huge impact on the quality of advice over the last 30 years.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

Yeah, yeah, it is it's certainly I I mean it I mean when I think about certainly when I came into financial services all those years back, um, well it was 1988 with the bank, and then I moved into the you know, work for an insurance company where you were essentially just selling products, and and there was no real you weren't really recommending or selling a product in the context of uh you know a client's desired lifestyle, but yet here we are now you know, clients can, if they're working with a financial planner um with forecasting, they're able to visualize what their financial future could look like. They're able to see what's possible that they they wouldn't have been able to see before. And and I I don't think we talk enough about what it means to have um you know to remove that anxiety or to create financial peace of mind. I think that that's that's what's just so powerful, isn't it? About about about the financial planning journey. And I mean, what price do you put on knowing that you can secure all that's important to you and your family? I mean that I mean how do you put a price on that? You know, it's quite incredible. Yeah, I mean you you can't you can't put a price on it, can you? No, no, absolutely. Um, I mean, Jackie, what originally drew you know drew you into financial planning and what's kept you what's kept you in the financial planning sector for a lifetime? I mean for a long, long time.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Yeah. So what drew me in was maths. Um I'm quite good at maths. Um I uh am a closet astrophysicist um at heart, um, but I decided to do a big swerve and not go to university to do a degree in astrophysics. Um I decided to get a job and I worked in the kind of well, they used to describe us as not the actuarial department, um, but kind of the slightly more human side of the actuarial department, doing kind of manual calculations that in those days, uh, you know, in the 80s the computers couldn't do themselves, um, and the kind of legacy old products um that many people had, you know, lurking in your in your desk drawer somewhere. Um and but so that was quite interesting because I I'm a bit of a geek from that point of view. But um what started the process of getting into the profession itself was I started to talk to financial advisors on the telephone at this insurance company, and they would say to me, Oh, Jackie, you know, I'm this is what I'm trying to achieve for my client, but I don't know how to do it. And I would then be problem-solving to say, Well, this is the kind of product, a couple of products that the client's got, but maybe you there are two scenarios here, two potential strategies. We could do it this way or we could do it this way. These are the pros and cons of that. And then I left it up to the financial advisor to, you know, to talk to their client about it, and that often they didn't understand the products of particularly deeply, um, and therefore they didn't understand those little nuances that could actually make a real difference to a client's lives. Um, and so I I kind of became the kind of technical expert quite quickly. Um, and then I thought, okay, well, maybe I could have more of an impact by actually working at a financial advice firm. Um, and so I went off to Taunton to work for a very small IFA firm as the power planner.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Um, and then that really I was working in the background, kind of doing the number crunching, running some spreadsheets and the very early um iterations of the cash flow tools as they were being developed and coming out, I was kind of racing along to the demonstrations really to understand what was going on under the bonnet of those tools. And with the sole purpose of helping those clients get better advice than they did the day before. And that's essentially the one reason why I've done what I've done. If I can help one client or potential client to steer them to get better quality advice than they otherwise had up to that point, then that was kind of, you know, my job was done. Um, I could kill over and die as a happy person. Um, and so that that kind of then, that kind of thirst for the technical knowledge, but also doing right by clients and making that difference, I then realized that I could stay as an advisor, uh, as a power planner with one firm. I worked with the sixth largest accountancy firm at the time. And or I could, and I could probably effect change in, you know, maybe a hundred clients maximum. If I went to work for a professional body, I could challenge a wider group of financial advisors and planners, as they as many became, um, to challenge them, you know, intellectually and also personally to help them give better quality advice than they had otherwise done. So it meant from being able to affect change for perhaps a hundred people in the UK, it then became, you know, literally maybe hundreds of thousands of clients potentially across the UK and beyond. Um, and so that kind of pebble in the pond where you send out those ripples, um uh that's essentially why I've stuck with it, because I've seen so many great stories and experiences of financial planners who've sought help, who have been open to learn, um, and to have that drive, to share that drive that I have to help clients get the very best quality advice that they can possibly get. Um, and so collectively I've kind of you know helped support them um to grow the profession.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

Yeah, well, you know, it's it's uh truly fabulous. Um you know, even just to hear your passion come through in what is um, you know, it's a great, a great profession, it truly, truly is, and of course, money plays such a such a big part in our lives. I mean, it that's probably a a financial consequence for the majority, if not all of life's decisions, and um so you know it's great, it's great to know that uh that the profession has people like your good self. And I mean from your perspective, just thinking more on the financial planning side of things, the the about what it is to be a good financial planner, what from your perspective, what separates a good financial planner from a truly, a truly great one?

SPEAKER_00 15:40

So, do you know that's a great question, Jonathan, because I find uh that there are an awful lot of people out there who are calling themselves a financial planner who actually aren't. And it drives me absolutely round the bend, as you can imagine, after all these years. Um and a lot of people, after there was a pensions miss selling scandal, there were issues with the banks like Northern Rock, for those of you who are uh old enough to remember like me. Um, and at that point, um, to be an independent financial advisor, which is a regulated term by the Financial Services, Financial Conduct Authority, financial services authority as it was back then, um, uh nobody wanted to be an IFA anymore. They didn't want that same bit to be tarred with that same brush. So a lot of people change their trading style, if you like, from financial independent financial advisor to financial planner. And um, but the vast majority are still, in my opinion, um uh selling products first. So they might talk to a client about what their objectives are, but they're talking to the client with in the back of their mind this kind of slot machine of, well, what product do they need? What product do they need? They're not talking to a client like a real financial planner is about their wants and desires, why do they want to do this, what has happened in the past, what do how do clients understand, how did they grow up with money, what were their experiences when they were growing up, how did their parents um uh talk about money? Um, grandparents, I mean, I often tell this story um about my grandmother and my mother and me. We all share similar traits. Um, and uh back at the end of the Second World War, my grandmother was a nurse and um she helped a lot of families who couldn't afford um NHS care, well there was no NHS in those days, but any kind of health care. And so they repaid her, because it was up in Liverpool, they repaid her with bars of palm olive soap and with Colgate toothpaste because of two massive factories up in that neck of the woods. So what happened was that um when we talk about money, it's not necessarily, you know, just you know, money, coins and notes, it's that experience. And what happened with my mum was she was growing up in that environment, and when she became an adult, she uh unwittingly started hoarding bars of palm olive soap and Colgate toothpaste. And then you come along to the next generation, Dan, which is me, and I witnessed my mum um doing that, and so I updated this hoarding, um, and I uh I used to hoard um uh shower gel and toothpaste. And and then it was it was probably about 10 years or so ago that I suddenly realized that that's a kind of behavioral trait that that I've learned essentially from my mum and my grandmother, my mum's learned from her mother. And it's all but it this these issues about how we're influenced as a family unit, how we grow up, um, have a massive impact on how we see things moving forward and what our personal opinions and views are on different things. And all of those experiences go into the mix to relate to financial planning about what we want as a client, what we want to happen with our money in the future, how we want it to work for us. And the good financial planners out there will ask you all those sorts of questions. Why have you done what you've done? What what gets you out of bed in the morning? How do you feel about things? They're not just kind of going, oh, well, let's look at what if you've got, okay, well, you've got a pension, that's quite chunky, or you haven't really got an ISA, we should chop up your ISA. That that actually is kind of a hidden, that's that's what whatever product you should have is a natural side effect, a natural consequence of having the conversation about what you want as the client.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Yeah, yeah, but it it's very much wearing the as as as our friend Paul Armson would say, Um, you know, it's the wearing the life planning hat first and putting the client's life at the very centre of the conversations with them.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

And and um and and really you've got no um, you're not entitled to put on the financial planning hat. You're certainly not entitled to put on the advice hat or the IFA hat until you've undertaken that life planning and financial planning stages.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm and I actually think, if I'm not mistaken, I maybe I'm mistaken here, but I'm I'm sure that um it I'm sure is it not Australia or maybe it's the US that you cannot call yourself a financial planner unless you're demonstrating that you do financial planning.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

But maybe Yes, in Australia, yes, maybe it's changed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

And what what do you feel? Uh I mean, what do you feel clients most often misunderstand about about financial planning?

SPEAKER_00 20:54

I think a lot of clients, in my experience, a lot of clients come with a specific problem to solve. So, like at this time of the year, if you're looking towards the end of the tax year, for example, they're like, oh, well, maybe I should be putting more money in my pension, or should I be using that money to pay off a bit down on my mortgage for some, for example, or maybe I should be saving it, depending on what the because the uh economic climate is quite unknown at the moment. And so a lot of people will come, they have one specific problem, but they don't necessarily understand about how that one problem feeds into the huge picture. And those decisions that they're making about that one issue right now will have a natural ramification on other objectives that they want to achieve in the future. Um, and so I think getting, seeking good financial planning advice, even for perhaps what we might perceive as clients as a you know, a small decision to make should I top up my pension or not? Um you you don't know what you don't know as a client, and a financial Planner can kind of go, okay, we can run different scenarios, but let's talk more about you know what you want in the future and being able to have those conversations. Um, a financial planning friend said to me years ago that financial planning is a bit like taking a client in your little time capsule, you get them in your time capsule, you zoom on to a particular date in time, like the day they want to retire, you open the time capsule and you ask them to have a look around. Do they like what they see? If the answer is yes, you go, Great, nothing to do then. Um, if the answer is well, not quite sure about some stuff, then you kind of go, right, okay, you make a list of those things, you take them back in the in the time capsule back to today, and you can discuss what you can do. Because when you make any financial decision, it's a trade-off against another decision naturally. Um, and so don't think that when you're making one decision, that it's that decision in isolation. So you might be by saying, okay, I'm not going to top up my pension contribution this year, I'm going to pay down that little bit off my mortgage instead. Then that could down the line have an impact on your estate planning, for example. Um, and and so every decision we need to understand has an impact. And let's get the right decision that's right for you, not for anybody else, not for anybody else's circumstances, but for you as the client.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Yeah, very, very good indeed. Um I mean, I I I I think you're right. I mean, if the client comes to us, it will be generally around the products. You know, they're trying to make sense of the various pensions they have, or um, they've come into money. Should we invest this or should we pay off our mortgage? And and um and I think that tends to be how we would we frame things is look, we can absolutely help you with that. But before we get there, can you tell us what's important about money to you? And and and and trying to dig a bit deeper and and to build a bigger picture about what and who is important to you know to our clients.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

I mean if if if if if someone listening or watching this episode is in that part, that stage in their life when they're looking to choose a financial planner, Jackie, what what questions should they be what questions should they be asking?

SPEAKER_00 24:26

I would ask about um how they charge, um, about the various services and levels of service that you could obtain potentially. Um for example, some people will charge you for managing their ass your assets, and so they will put them on a platform and manage them for you. Other people will charge a one-off fee for a financial plan, for example. Other people, if they're managing your assets, they won't charge you for the financial plan. One of the things that I have come across in my search for a financial planner, my husband and I are looking for a certified financial planner who is 35 or under. Um, so we can have that longevity with our relationship with them. And what I've realized is that when they when you talk to any advice firm, they'll show you a list of costs and charges. Um, it's immensely difficult to compare one against the other, immensely. So, for example, um, one firm said, okay, well, we we don't charge for the financial plan, but we charge a percentage of annual um assets under management. But we also charge a one-off fee for every additional amount of money that comes in, so every new tranche of money. The other firm said we charge a fee, which I think was about£1,000 for the financial plan, but we have a much reduced fee for the annual management charge for managing the assets, and there is no additional fee for any other tranches of money that come in. So then you you end up with this, you heads exploding because you're like, well, you know, they're both good financial planning firms. They we like both of them, but how how do you pick between them? Um, and so you've got to think about, take away their information and maybe run some scenarios that are suitable for you. Ask the financial planning firm about the costs and say, okay, well, in my situation, actually, what would it cost me? Um, and not just for the first year, but maybe for the first two or three years. So you can kind of get a feel for the overall cost for a number of years. Because if you're going to engage a financial planner and engage in that relationship, you don't want it just to be for one year, you want it to be, you know, multiple year relationship, um, hopefully. Um, and so it's one thing asking about the costs, you know, lots of people saying, oh well, ask about the costs, but then being able to compare those two costs and it is important. And I think also you have to feel comfortable with that uh financial planner. Look for the right qualification. So they might be chartered with the Chartered Insurance Institute. Um, but I would also recommend looking for a certified financial planner with who are certified with the CISI as well, um, because they have a much better training and level of training that they've undergone and a much more uh in-depth understanding of different scenarios that uh and those kind of ramifications that I've talked about already. Um they are they're trained to kind of search out those potential ramifications. So it means that they can ask you about the issues and potential trade-offs, and you can help make that decision. So your relationship should feel like a collaborative relationship. It shouldn't feel like you're either giving them instruction or the financial planning firm is going, right, you need to have this product this month or this product this month. Um, it's got to be a collaborative relationship. And I think you also need to feel if you can be open, fully open about your experiences, um, you know, talking about money, like I mentioned before, how your parents or grandparents talked about money and dealt with money in the past. Um, you know, you do need to be in the right frame of mind, personally, I think, to get into those kinds of conversations. Um, because we had those kinds of conversations over the last month or so, and it's exhausting. And I think from a financial planner doesn't always realize just how exhausting it is for a client or a potential client to talk about, you know, those very important things for them.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

Yeah, and I I and it it must just be. I mean, there's there's yourself and your husband, um, your husband whom I know very well too, and hugely respect, um, you know, have been at the forefront and involved in this financial planning profession for a number of years, and and there's you finding it challenging, trying to find the right so you can only imagine what that must be like for someone alien to this whole sector, um, you know, understanding how much information are they going to have to divulge and um how long is the process. And I I I often think one of the big things that clients or or someone needs to consider before they engage with the financial planner is very much does that firm deal with other clients in similar situations? You know, are other clients who maybe approach retirement or maybe in retirement or a firm that is used to working with clients that come into Windfalls, or you know, if you're an entrepreneur dealing with a financial planning firm that also that deals with other entrepreneurs, um and I and I know that that that it's difficult to sometimes square all of these things off, but yes, and I I think one other important aspect is the size of the firm.

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Yes, you know, what happens if Jonathan, God forbid, you got run over by a bus on your way home tonight? Um, you know, who picks up the advice? Who is responsible? How do the, you know, how do the wheels set in motion to make sure that uh as a client I would still receive the same quality advice from uh another individual in the firm. Um and so are there protections, you know, perhaps a locum in place? Um you know, are there any scenarios where that's had to happen? Um, those kinds of things are really important because it can give you as a client that peace of mind that it's like, okay, well, as you mentioned earlier, and you're not just dealing with me, you know, you're dealing with, you know, uh my whole team, and there are specific people that have specific roles, but you can phone any of us anytime, and here are all of our numbers and contact details. Um, and you know, some people will call, some clients will call, some clients will be like, nope, if I I will call if I need to. Um, other clients will just call just for the because they need that extra reassurance. And sometimes you don't always know until the process starts because it is, as I mentioned, quite an feels like quite an exposing process to kind of lay your life bare in front of a financial planner. And so different people will react differently to that process as they go through it. So different people will need that extra little bit of support, um, and you know, as and when things crop up and you kind of think, actually, I'm not sure about that, or I don't know what you mean. Um, but as a prospective client, it's important for you to be able to feel comfortable to ask those questions. And if you don't get a straight answer, then go elsewhere. You know, there's none of this, oh well, I get back to you. Oh, well, you know, of course we're super professional, oh well, there's always somebody or always here or whatever. You want to know the specifics so that you can have comfort in building that trust and relationship with somebody.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Yeah, absolutely. And and and to answer your question, and those for those people watching and and and and listening, um, the Purpose of Wealth podcast is brought to you by a company called Wells Gibson. And if I am, if I do happen to be run over by a bus, our clients will be well looked after by Josh Smith and Emma Jane and supported by a very capable team. So that answers that question. So although I think there's a I think we do have a locum as well. We do have a locum as well. So um, but uh no, you're absolutely right. And I mean, over your career, Jackie, what what behaviors have you seen in clients who tend to achieve the better long-term outcomes?

SPEAKER_00 33:14

So the behaviors I see are that they engage. They're not nitpicking, they're not wanting to know every little minute detail about what's going on. They're not trying to second guess or you know discuss the ins and outs of any particular decision that's been given by a financial planner, but they are fully engaged in the process. What is it that the financial planner needs from me as a client to get the best for my money, to get the best so that I can achieve what I want to achieve with my money. Um, and it's really that engagement piece rather than, you know, like I think if you with an accountant, for example, you kind of send them your stuff at the end of the year if you're self-employed or you run your own business, and you know, that's pretty much it. Um, you might have the odd question during the rest of the year, but it's pretty much a transactional relationship. So whilst you have a relationship with them, it's not until there's a problem that you would normally call them up and say, you know, maybe it's a business, you want to move premises, you want to rent or other buy other premises, um, you know, what's the most tax-efficient way of doing it, and things like that. So you might speak to your accountant about things like that. Um, but with a financial planner, it is a more frequent and kind of fluid, ongoing conversation that you're having. And so those clients who understand those differences don't treat them just like a transactional uh accountant, for example, but um you're kind of more like your professional friend. So before making those decisions, I'm gonna call my professional friend, I'm gonna ask them, you know, is it in my plan? You know, if I've discussed my hopes and dreams, you know, there will be, you know, little offside projects that pop up probably. And I will always go to my financial planner first, and then they will refer me out. So they might refer me to a more specialist accountant, you know, if I wanted to buy a property or something like that, or to a specialist lawyer for specific things if I didn't have one already. But back to that, we don't know what we don't know as clients. I still don't know what I don't know after all my years. And so using uh building that relationship with the financial planner is that that fluid, ongoing, your kind of best professional friend. And those people who do that, they understand the process because there is a lot to take on board in the process. There's a lot to understand maybe about the different products that they've accumulated over the years, how different products will help in different scenarios. You know, there's a lot to digest when you're talking to a financial planner, talking about, you know, your hopes and dreams, um, not for just for you, but you know, for your immediate family potentially as well. And so you need somebody that you don't just kind of do a brain dump and then go away and forget about it. You want that ongoing relationship. So as things can be tweaked, as your situation changes, there are minor tweaks to happen along the way, rather than, you know, it's like when you go to the GP, you go with a big list of things that you want to talk to them about. You're not holding a big list for a financial planner, you're having that fluid conversation as things arise.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right about engagement, and I would probably add openness to that. Um, you know, we certainly work a lot better with those clients, and maybe the openness just comes from trust and really understanding why we are following a particular process and wanting to know so much, so much information. Um, and and and taking and heeding the advice as well, I think is is is is clear.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

You know, and sometimes people want to heed the advice but don't always do it. And there are other reasons why they might not do it. You know, there might be a family emergency, they or there might be some sort of blocker that they're not actually comfortable and they might not be comfortable maybe because they don't understand fully. And then then maybe that's on the financial planner to kind of go, okay, well, rather than going, you know, what's going on? Why haven't you done it? We're kind of backtracking and kind of going, you know, is everything okay? Do you would you like another conversation about this? You know, would you like to bring anybody else into that conversation? You know, what to establish what are the reasons why the client isn't perhaps going ahead or seems quite hesitant, or as a lot of clients do, you know, they say yes, I'll do something and then it doesn't arrive. They said they say they'll send you something and it doesn't actually arrive. You know, as a client, you need to have that commitment, um, and and again, like you say, that openness to be able to say, actually, you know, my life's you know gone off the rails this last month uh for whatever personal reason, and therefore, you know, can you just give me 30 days and we'll get back on track on and that's okay. Um, but having that two-way conversation rather than viewing it as, well, we haven't sorted out my pension yet. Why haven't they sorted out my pension? You know, I thought it was going to increase my pension contribution before the end of the tax year. And Jonathan still hasn't done it yet. So what's he playing at? You know, you've got to have that open conversation, so that fluid conversation, um, and then you know, that's where that relationship really builds.

SPEAKER_02 38:47

Yeah. And uh just just even aligned with that, I I suppose the next obvious question would be you know, what are the most common mistakes that you think people repeat with money?

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Yes, good question.

SPEAKER_02 39:02

Common mistakes maybe spending, spending too much, spending more than they've said they would in their financial plan.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

Yes, yes. I think that's the big thing, spending more than they said they would. And actually, most of us don't really keep a track of our spending habits if we're honest. Um and but I think you should actually, and it's a great tip for anybody who is perhaps a prospective client of a financial planning firm, to, you know, do yourself a budget to look at how much you really are spending on certain things. Um, I saw an advertisement on the telly the other day last week that said, Um, you know, I'll give you£100 if you can tell me exactly how many uh app subscriptions you have on your phone. And most people went, oh, okay,£100, I'll take it. And they went, three. Um, and most people have about 12. Um and so of course they never got their£100. But it's it's interesting as in in our heads, you know, we think that we know what our finances are. Um, but actually the reality is that things change, we forget, we go on to other things, um, we never really have a clear picture of what our factual expenditure is in any given year, and particularly where have been the emergencies? You know, has the car blown up like-minded? My car blew up two weeks ago, uh, completely out of the blue. Um, it's been absolutely brilliant, and all of a sudden, basically, the engine just blew up. Um, and that's it. Uh, you know, I bought my own car, so then I was like, well, you know, how would you find 20,000, 25,000 pounds for a new car in a week? Um, how do I pick a car? All of those kinds of things. It you're all like, Wow, all of a sudden. Um, so you know how how much, where would you get the money from in a situation like that? If you're not working with a financial planner and something like that has happened to you, then where would you get the money from? Um, so you know, you can have those do a little bit of work on yourself. Um, don't be afraid to. You're not asking for, you know, absolutely everything about everything, but look at your finances. And actually, you know, I guess my top tip if if you're looking to save a little bit of money is look at how many subscription apps that you have on your phone and see whether you have 12 and maybe cut them down to the three that you think you have.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

Yeah, I I I I certainly think um, you know, we we will ask clients to provide a you know a summary of where they're spending their money and and also to think about what they anticipate one how much they want to spend maybe in retirement, you know, holidays and so forth. But it's incredible how many um you you know, you it's not really until you come alongside a client that it's only at that point where you have to urge them to start thinking about um you know, perhaps upgrades to their home or just ongoing home maintenance, or when do they anticipate changing their car next and and at what cost? And are they are they the type of people that would prefer a brand new car either on a lease basis or a PCP basis, and then of course there's there's all the financial suitability around that, um and then there's the things, even the things like clothing and grooming that people don't think about, um birthdays and Christmases, and um there are just so many, so many, so many different things, and and it's it's quite hard. I mean, even we were meeting with clients today who have three grown-up children, they've just they've just sold their dental practice and they've come into some money and they're looking to invest it. But it's hard for them to even think about the cost of their retirement lifestyle at the moment because they're not you know, they can't they can't be sure about whether they're they're gonna have grandchildren, they might have grandchildren. Um it it really does require ongoing planning, doesn't it? And and and a process where you're meeting with your clients, coming alongside them every single year to to review these things and really explore these things in depth.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

And one of the other aspects that is really interesting, I saw some research um last year was that you know there's been a a you know huge uh increase in the people being diagnosed with ADHD in the UK. And one of the traits, according to the research, is that when you're looking specifically at financial planning, that um that some people with ADHD will find it difficult to look too far into the future and to picture themselves in 10 years' time. Or 20 years' time. And so as a financial planner, we have to think, okay, well, maybe there is an impact there where we're basically taking it a year at a time with somebody. And whilst we have the whole cash flow for you know the next 30 years or so, maybe that for some people they need to kind of ease their way into it to understand, well, what's the impact next year? What's the impact the year after? And that as we get more comfortable with the financial planning process, that we might actually start then to kind of go, oh, well, actually, okay, I'm worried about my retirement. But like you say, what if I do have grandkids, then maybe I want to give them some money when they're 18 or when they're 21, or um, you know, to buy their first get the mortgage, deposit for a mortgage or their first car. Um and uh so there are there are lots of other, and this is where the kind of behavioral finance um aspect of the last you know major changes over the last 30 years is really coming to the fore to understand that it's not necessarily because if uh me as a client would kind of go, yeah, I get it, I get it, I get it, and then something happens that I don't do it. Um it isn't necessarily because I don't understand, it could be for some of those other factors as well. It's quite fascinating research.

SPEAKER_02 45:22

Uh it is absolutely. Um, and it it does seem to be the case that ADHD is becoming all the more prevalent in society, um as well as other other behavioural traits as well, and probably aligned with with all of that. You're right, it's not just about what mistakes people maybe repeat with their money, it's what's that's just that's a symptom, what's the cause of that? And and and that leads to other other things like emotional patterns around money which show up again, and again, you know, there and wars happening, and people um seem to be their their a lot of clients can be is this time different? Yes, is this time different? Should we re be rethinking our investment strategy or um you know people are naturally fearful, I suppose. Um and I and and and that's probably why financial planning is critical because it's only a financial planner that can really come alongside a client and say, Yeah, you're right, your portfolio is down in value, but it's still higher than it was this time last year.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

And this time last year we were able to show you at that value, you weren't going to run out of money. And and and in fact, and in fact, your portfolio could fall another 40% in value, or you could lose 40% of the value, and you'll still live the life that's important to you. And um so you know, I think it's um it's it's all of that. Can can I just move, I want to just have a wee think about just professional standards, Jackie, and I suppose to ask you why you know, I'm so the background to this, I'm quite dismayed. I I love to think that financial planning is a profession. I still wonder if it's an emerging profession. Um, and maybe I've been saying that for 20 years, but you know, I and perhaps perhaps that there's there's a lot of factors that that that come into this, but I'm quite dismayed, really, that um okay. So my my my perspective is that to to be an authorized financial planner, I believe you should be level six qualified as a minimum. I don't really, it doesn't really matter where in what environment you're in, whether you're in a restricted environment, that you can only you represent a few products. I think the art of financial planning, before you get to product stage in whatever context, there should be a financial planning process. Um and so that I'm I'm quite dismayed that the regulator have settled on a level four as level four diploma as being relevant. I mean, my question to you is why why do professional standards and qualifications matter for everyday clients?

SPEAKER_00 48:17

Wow, yes. Um very good question. So if I think back to 1994, um when I first became authorised a long time ago now, um the the it wasn't a level four that was the minimum standard, it was actually level three, and then that was optional. Um and um I can remember going to uh a very small professional body at that time, and uh the uh I was sat next to um uh shipping container lease salesmen, um, all calling themselves financial advisors, uh all sorts of walks of life, different, slightly different professions to deal with money. Basically, anybody could call themselves a financial advisor and sell you anything along the way.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

And then the regulator stepped in and started um uh making sure that you you had to achieve a minimum standard. And so this is what you were talking about, the level four. So it's gone up a little step. So level four is essentially uh GCSE, O levels in old money, um, level qualification, that's what we're talking about here, that's level four. So the regulator, and I've spoken to them at length over many decades about this, and they always say the same thing to me, and that is we're dealing with the lowest common denominator, Jackie. So we would love everybody to be level six, but if we made it made it a requirement to be a regulated advisor and a financial planner to be level six, we would probably lose you know 80% of the profession. And if we lost 80% of those people, then you know, um, my friends uh across uh in Europe who uh have run other professional bodies across Europe, they always make fun of me when I see them because the UK has the biggest advice gap. And if if the FCA uh steps in and makes all the level qualifications from level four scraps out and makes a minimum as level six, we would lose too many financial advisors and planners, and therefore the it would we would severely restrict the market that is available for uh for normal people like you and I to receive financial advice. So there's this dilemma of actually we want people, and the regulator wants people, part of its requirement and the government's requirements of the regulator are that there has to be a healthy market available. There has to be a market that is sufficiently buoyant that people can seek advice, bearing in mind that we already have the biggest advice gap when you look compare us to most of the rest of the world, but definitely across Europe. Um, and so I think that's why the regulator essentially hasn't gone fullball on level six. It encourages it. Um, what we do see is that um when I look, and it you can also look on as perspective clients, you can look on the Financial Services Regulator's website for complaints. Um, those complaints that go to court um uh time and time again, they are level four qualified advisors. Um, very rarely I've never seen a certified financial planner taken to court. Um, I have seen some CII chartered financial planners taken to court, um, but the vast, vast majority, um over 90%, are all level four qualified advisors. Um, and that then brings out, well, you know, why are they like that? And it's because, you know, it's O-level GCSE qualification level, they don't have perhaps enough experience, they definitely don't have enough technical knowledge. So back to one of your earlier questions, Jonathan, that you were asking me, one of the things you should talk about is qualifications. What does that mean? Um, you know, a level six is essentially uh first year undergraduate degree, level seven for certified financial planner is master's degree level. Um, so if you talk when as a client when you're talking to uh a financial planner about their qualifications, don't just let them fob fob you off and go, Well, I'm a CFP or I'm chartered or whatever. You know, what does that mean in terms that you are comfortable to understand?

SPEAKER_02 52:51

Yeah, yeah, it is quite and you know, and perhaps I could I would concede that if if you are at a particular stage in your life, maybe early career, you know, look to get on the property ladder and it's all about arranging the right mortgage, you know, I can perhaps accept that, you know, that a mortgage planner doesn't need to be a level seven qualified financial planner, perhaps somebody that's advising a company on a group pension scheme. You know, I can see scenarios, but you know, for to be in a to be in 2026 where it's possible it is actually possible for somebody at level four to point a client in the in the direction of higher risk tax planning products such as a venture capital trust or an enterprise investment scheme or you know you know that type of thing is quite it's quite something. Um and I suppose I and I know the firm would have to take responsibility for that. So, you know, I you know I you know I I get that.

SPEAKER_00 53:59

And then that goes back to what we were saying earlier, Jonathan, about where are the checks and balances in the firm? Are there other members of staff? Are there other areas of expertise in the firm? You know, if they if you are being recommended as a client to go down those sorts of routes, um, you know, uh do they have professional indemnity cover for that? But again, it is the responsibility of the firm to oversee and to authorize essentially the advisors that were giving that advice. Um, but as a client, you can still ask, you know, and I think some of the things we it's quite often I find people get into sticky waters, clients end up being uh in sticky waters, shall we say, and make having to make complaints. It's normally where there are tax breaks concerned.

SPEAKER_02 54:48

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 54:49

So it could be inheritance tax, complicated setting up trusts, something like that. It could be, well, you know, I like you mentioned earlier, you've got clients who are about to sell their business, who are striking a deal to sell a business, uh, or they're like you mentioned their dental practice, and you know, what do I do with that money? I surely I'm not just gonna have to, you know, pay like 60% tax on all of this money. Um, are there other ways I could maybe get some of it back? And and I quite commonly see, especially the number of complaints, um, are related to that, where what we all have termed for many years the you know, the tax tail wagging the investment dog, um, you know, you've got to look at it from both sides of the fence. Is the investment a sound investment? And as a as a client, do you understand it? You know, could you explain it to your family, to your mum, um, to your closest friend? If you couldn't explain it as the client, then you know, maybe you shouldn't be having it because you really do need to understand um these more complicated investments. And, you know, don't be afraid as the client to say, well, are there other are there other alternatives? What are the other alternatives? Because in my experience, in financial planning terms, there is always, always, at least two strategies. One strategy is do nothing, you don't need to. The other strategy is make this recommendation, do this one thing. But commonly, um, there is always a third strategy. And there was so if something is very complicated to you as a client, always ask if there is a simpler, less complicated option that perhaps you could explore alongside both of them so that you can understand what those pros and cons are. So again, you can collaborate with the financial planner to make that decision rather than just coming in and going, kind of feeling a bit like a financial advisor. Well, you need to have this EIS, for example, because you want to save 30% tax and therefore trot off down that route. And we won't worry about anything else, you know, because maybe there are other options. Um, and even if there aren't, have those other options been explored? And the answer is no, no, no, no, across the board. This is your only option. Um, so don't be afraid to ask for uh alternative options or pros and cons of any given option that you might a recommendation that might be made to you.

SPEAKER_02 57:30

Yeah, completely, completely agree. And and when you think when you think about the human side of um money and wealth, Jackie, um you know, from from your perspective, after a you know, lifetime and planning, what have clients taught you about money and life? And maybe a line with that is you know, have your views about wealth changed over the years?

SPEAKER_00 57:58

Yeah, so my clients um and financial planners have taught me so much um about money. My views have changed enormously over the years. Um, back in the day when I first started in the financial planning profession back in the 90s, um, I was very conservative. I didn't really like the stock market, mostly because I didn't really understand it. Um and I didn't understand that. I always thought when I was given advice that that was the only solution. And there wasn't, there's always more, as I just mentioned, there's always more than one potential solution or strategy. Um, and my clients used to challenge me, um, and they would say that sometimes, um, and they would be like, Jackie, so what else have you considered? And I'd be like, actually, I haven't really considered that much. Um, and I'd be like, I'll be back in five minutes. Um, but so it kind of forced me to open my horizons, and also my clients have been so kind and supportive that we we've built such close relationships with them that over the years, um, you know, I've met their families, their other halves, their children, um, you know, they've taken risks and things uh where they fully understood things that perhaps they otherwise wouldn't have done. And so they've taught me that you can take risks, you can take risks with your money. Um, and it's okay to do that as long as you understand that balance. So, for example, um there was um uh a firm I used to give advice to three partners, three guys who were partners in a firm. They took, they were, they hired heavy plant machinery and they took a massive financial risk because obviously you need a huge amount of machinery to be able, and then trucks to deliver it all over the country to hire it out to people, and then it would get damaged and all the rest of it. Um, and so huge amounts of money were going into this business. And they all three of them had very young families. So they would say to me, Jackie, you know, we're we're all of us really cautious about our investments for our own personal wealth and future, and you can understand that because they would say, you know, we're taking colossal risks or off-the-scale risks with the money in our business. Um, and so we need to counterbalance that somehow. Um, and so that's why they were kind of overly cautious in their personal financial planning. And but having that conversation with them, I was like, well, yes, but this business isn't going to last forever. And then actually it's still in existence 35 years later, um, but you know, at some stage you will want an exit, and you want, then you're going to have to rely on whatever's left. And then they will be kind of like, oh well, I see what you mean. And so you I have also learned that you can separate out different parts of your life, your working life from your personal life. And whilst one does colour and influence the other, you can be braver in other aspects, like these guys did, to, in order to protect your future personal life when you exit businesses or practices. Um and and but it really is collaborating that I've learned to be able to say, okay, actually, you know, I don't understand. Um, because a lot of the some of the time they knew more than me about certain aspects, you know, and you quite often find that about their own, if you're running a business or you're employed in a specialist role, you know a huge amount about that aspect um of you know the working world. Um, and it's okay to say that actually you don't understand about some of the other aspects. You could you can still be, you know, a massive boffin and know everything there is to know in one area and actually admit that it's okay that you don't know everything about you know investments or uh EISs or anything like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:08

Yeah, yeah. I I know certainly um I I would say when I reflect on the what was it, 2004 when I decided to go into financial planning. So a little over 20 years, I would say that I think what clients have taught me about money in life is that what really matters is contentment. Um you know, being less anxious about tomorrow. I and I mean contentment, whether you have a lot or less is finding contentment, I think is really massively important, and maybe more important than anything. Um with wealth, what's you know, I mean I've got a strap line behind me which has been there for years, you know, that real wealth is about much more than money and possessions. I think if I was to develop that, I would say that my views when it comes to wealth is that actually it's what really matters is that the wealth that you have or whatever you have allows you to live a fulfilled and meaningful life. I you know, I think and that'll be different, obviously different for different different people. Um and I I I I suppose I'm keen to ask you, and this is probably a a really pivotal question, given that you're at this point of stepping into retirement, Jackie, and um a lot of our clients that the I think the majority of clients um or new clients, perhaps past clients, have come to us when they're sort of near retirement, probably within 10 years of retirement. Not always, not always. Um you know what advice would you give someone approaching retirement today?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:57

So, retirement, it you define what retirement looks like for you. Don't let anybody else define what retirement looks like for you. Because retirement could mean financial independence and still working a day or two a week. Um, it could mean looking after the grandkids a day a week, um, it can mean a whole range of different things, maybe starting uh a new hobby. Um but think about what it means to you when essentially you stop doing what you've been doing, earning a living for all of these years. And but don't rush into it. Um, what I'm finding is that I kind of feel the urge that I should be filling my time with stuff. Um and even for me, and though you know, I've been thinking about it on and off for the last two years, I still, when it actually happens, that's a different, whole different ball game than actually thinking about it and planning about it. For me, it wasn't, it's not about the money. In a lot of financial planners and the financial advisors particularly, they talk about the money. Am I going to be okay? Uh, you know, do I have enough? All the rest of it. But actually, when you get there, it's not actually about the money. It's like what you were saying, Jonathan. Am I, am I, I know that I'm okay. So am I content? Am I happy with being retired? So I'm not a retired librarian, a retired financial planner. I'm just retired. And you know, what does that look like for you? And don't you don't have to rush through and think, right, I need to fill eight hours a day with this, that, and the other. Uh, what am I going to do? Right. I'm going to take up photography, I'm going to take up painting, maybe I'll start playing the guitar, you know, all of those kinds of things. Just let the particularly, I think, the first kind of 12 to 18 months, um, give yourself some grace to find to also. To wind down physically and emotionally. I think that's a massive thing. You know, I think I saw some statistics the other day that, you know, we can cause quite a lot of health problems if we we kind of charge up to the retirement line and then we go doink and we stop. So let yourself breathe and wind down into retirement. You don't have to have the whole thing sorted out right from the get-go of ding the day that you clock out of your job. Um, and think about what actually retirement means to you. What do you want to do rather than uh, and I think this falls into many women will feel this what am I supposed to be doing for somebody else? I've got a bit more free time, you know, what should I be doing for somebody else? Press the pause button on that and think about what it means for you, what you need to be doing more of. Is that looking after yourself a little bit better? Is it going for an extra long walk a week? Is it going to the gym a little bit more frequently? And start off with those small steps to ease yourself in because you will meet other people along the way because you're out at different times of the day. You will get uh, you know, you'll make other friendships and other relationships as you go, but you don't have to have everything sorted right from day one.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:26

Yeah, but but but giving presumably but um absolutely right, but importantly give some thought to your retirement in terms of how you're going to spend time. And I think you know, one of the hard things I mean I often think about in terms of myself is this my identity in so many ways is is essentially wrapped up in this. Yes, I'm a husband and a dad, and um and I you know I'm a member of a member of church and um I serve at a local church and I play golf, you know, the and they're these are big big parts of my life, but um I I'm so involved in in this business and and uh and in the financial planning profession um that I often wonder, goodness, if that's taken away from me. You know, you look at what's left and and okay, I suppose you've got more time to allocate to these other things. Um but it's not something anyone should take lightly. And there's there's plenty, you know, there's store I mean, there's stories of the you know, of people who um that uh during their working life they they loved the round of golf, two, three rounds of golf during the week, and they it was and they they couldn't wait to retire and because they could potentially play more golf, and um and yet when they retired the golf didn't feel the same because the golf before represented a release for them from their yes, you know, from the from their work and the the stress of business and so forth, and and then all of a sudden it's um take or leave it.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:03

Yes, your focus changes, your focus absolutely changes, and I think you know, you've hit the nail on the head there. You're for so many of us, our work is a huge part of our identity. Um, and and that's why it's taken me kind of two years to get my head around the fact that, you know, should I, okay, maybe I should go part-time, maybe I should, or should I just knock it all on the head and walk away? You know, and you have to grapple personally with how you feel about that, because if you go part-time, then that might mean that you don't have the same autonomy where you're working, that maybe they they bring another uh boss in over your head, uh, that then you're kind of middle manager or whatever because of your um you know, your reduced hours. So there there might be natural consequences that might, you know, annoy the hell out of you. I think after being my boss, my own boss for five years, I think if somebody did that to me, I you know, I'd be out the door like a rat up a drain pipe because I don't think I could do that now. But you know, there are other, again, unintended consequences that can happen. And so you kind of have to go, okay, well, maybe I just have to kind of sit with it a little bit, don't rush into those decisions. If you know you're working with a financial planner and your finances are okay, and you know, they don't have to be like you said, they don't have to be stellar, they don't have to be right, well, I'm going on a cruise round the Caribbean or whatever next week or whatever it might be. You're not looking at saying, okay, I've got millions of pounds, I mean it might be, and that's all well and good. But if you don't have that kind of money, it's like, well, what do you want your money to do for you? How is it going to support the life that you want to lead? And a friend of mine who is a psychologist actually in Canada, um, Moya Summers, who um I know that you know Jonathan, um uh a very lovely and kind lady, um, she works with a lot of clients and financial planners where the clients have had, and most of them have had brain injuries and their personality has changed. And so she's helped kind of smooth that gap between what they used to say and what they might say now to their financial planner with uh after suffering their injury. Um, and she always tells this story about imagine that you've retired and it is a rainy Tuesday afternoon. What are you doing? And most people kind of look at me with pull a face and you kind of go, what you talking about? Um and what normally happens is that on a Monday or a Friday we're doing the shopping. We might be looking after the grandkids on a Wednesday or a Thursday, um, uh doing a little bit of golf, like you say, or hobbies. Um, but normally on a Tuesday, particularly a Tuesday afternoon, statistically, we're not doing anything. Um, and if it's raining, we can't go outside. Um, so what are we doing? Um, you know, and and that kind of helps those kind of questions help crystallize you to think about and visualize what retirement might actually look like. And like I just mentioned, it doesn't have to be the end, it isn't going to look like that forever. But what does it look like immediately after you retire? What might it look like as those months roll by, say at the end of the first year after you've retired, what would you want it to look like? As in what would you want to feel like? Um, you know, like looking after yourself a little bit more, uh, walking the dog a little bit more, for me, open water swimming and cold water a little bit more, all of those kinds of things. But what does, like you say, contentment, what does it look like for you, not for anybody else, not for I can do more work with my for my son or my uh family or whatever it is. Um don't get sucked in from one job into another job. Retirement is not an occupation. It's time for you to do.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:14

There's a because there's a there's a sorry to jump in, but there's a the I I heard it recently that actually rather than thinking about you know what do you want to do in retirement, actually a good question, a better question to ask ask yourself or or ask somebody is what would a bad retirement look like for you? And it's sometimes a lot easier to answer that.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:35

And that and and and depending on how you answer that, it's probably is is your is your answer to what a a good retirement would look like, you know. Jackie, just I I I'm conscious, you know, there's uh I could probably speak to you for hours about this, and um and I'm sure there's um you could do another podcast episode around one one theme, um whether it be retirement or investing or um anything, you know, for that matter, tax, tax planning. Um but I suppose in terms of wrapping things up, I m my final question to you uh would probably be that if you could give if you could give one piece of financial wisdom to anyone watching or listening to this episode, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:25

Hmm, good question, financial wisdom. So I think I would think about what matters most to you, that you can then make your money work for you towards that goal. Um and I think that's a lot of us are kind of dragged along, driven by investment returns going up, down. That's all a distraction. It's about how it helps you do what you want to do to get to where you want to be. So think of it from a selfish point of view if you want to think of it that way. Um, your money is there in it's like the engine of the car, but you pick the destination, you program the SAT nav, you get to decide.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:14

Great. Listen, thank you so much. Um, Jackie, it's been such a thoughtful and insightful conversation. Um, you know, I think what really stands out is that financial planning isn't just about numbers, it's about behavior, decisions, and ultimately helping people, you know, live better lives to help them live the life that's important to them. And from how the profession has evolved to what truly great advice looks like, to the patterns you've seen play out over decades, there's so much here for us all to really reflect on. Um, so thank you not just for joining me today, but for the contribution that you've made to this wonderful profession over your career. And you know, for any of our viewers or listeners, if if this conversation has prompted you to think differently about your own financial future, then it's done exactly what great planning is is meant to do. Um, thank you again for listening and watching the Purposeful Wealth podcast, which is brought to you by Wells Gibson. And hopefully we'll see you again soon. Thank you.