Not Another History Podcast
We are Cindy and Katie, and every two weeks we bring you a random theme and offer several of our favorite historical events loosely based on that theme. We are basically just living out our old lady fantasies of rocking on the front porch together, drinking, and gossiping about people who are already dead. Music: The Life of a Divorced Bumblebee by Josef Bel Habib (www.epidemicsound.com). Design: canva.com
Not Another History Podcast
Least Likely to Succeed
On this whimsical episode, Katie and Cindy tackle the theme of "Least Likely to Succeed." Cindy gives a brief history of Neanderthals and Katie shares the story of Daniel Sickles.
80. Happy summer. Last time we recorded it was still spring. Hi, cindy Happy summer and we had some pretty grand plans to record a lot this summer. But you know what?
Speaker 2:Oh my God, it's summer, so oh yeah, yes, Totally, we still have time. We could cram a whole bunch more in before the end of the summer. You know it's doable. Airplane.
Speaker 1:We're both going to be traveling. That's plenty of time to you know. Add to the list.
Speaker 2:Do you do that Instead of interacting with our families, Just like going to be traveling there's plenty of time to you know, add to the list instead of interacting with our families, Just you know Reading. No, no, I do, I have very slyly Text messages, but it's their fault.
Speaker 1:You know there's a lot of if you sit next to an older person they have a large font. Like you cannot not read it, but what a joy, what a joy to like peek over and see somebody working on a history story. What a dream, Katie.
Speaker 2:I would be so excited. I feel like that would be a big relief from some of the people that I've sat next to on planes.
Speaker 1:before I've had one woman she was like certifiably crazy and was trying to convert me to her religion. I was like no, I'm good, Thank you. Thank you very much so anyway, I'm hoping that when I got on a plane I will give somebody the thrill of a lifetime. Maybe it'll spark conversation. Maybe they'll spark conversation.
Speaker 2:Maybe they'll learn something. Absolutely yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, at the very least we get one subscriber, something Okay, so something you did not know, katie. So you know that we use there's a certain platform that we use for uploading our podcast, so this platform recently came out with some special features, including an AI-generated summary of our podcast. There's more, but I thought we're worth it, so I signed up for the AI part of the platform to get the AI to generate a summary of our last podcast, our last episode.
Speaker 1:Yeah, katie, it's so good. Okay, so, to jog your memory back to May, we our topic was in another life, right? Okay? So, in the words of AI, yes, here's what our, our episode is all about. Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:Listen to your seatbelts for a whimsical detour into the life of a Victorian girl who claimed a lineage tracing back to the sands of ancient Egypt. Was she merely a history buff, or was there something more spiritual, bridging the gap between her Victorian life and the era of pharaohs? We'll share a chuckle over how a Katy Perry tune can inspire story ideas and how identity can sometimes feel like a game of temporal hopscotch. Ending on a gripping note, we'll recount the nail-biting escapades of Yoshie Shiratori, the prison break magician of 1930s and 40s Japan. His relentless pursuit of freedom against all odds not only sheds light on the era's prison conditions, but also inspires a conversation about resilience in the face of life's toughest challenges. So get ready to laugh, ponder and find a bit of yourself in the incredible stories of individuals who transcended the ordinary, all shared with the warmth and camaraderie you've come to expect from Katie and me that was right.
Speaker 2:You know what that was an emotional roller coaster, but it ended on a high note.
Speaker 1:That was oh, thank you, ai, we have warmth and when the our robot overlords are gonna take over for you and me, don't you? Feel so good about yourself, don't you? You feel like this is like damn, this is a good podcast, oh no, oh, that was really sweet.
Speaker 2:I do.
Speaker 1:So anyway, I thought that was very flattering. If the robots say so. It's a bunch of BS. Personally, like too much AI, too much Flattering. Like too much AI, too much Flattering, but too much so I'm going to cancel.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes no.
Speaker 1:I was going to say the.
Speaker 2:AI did its job, or maybe like $5.50.
Speaker 1:I would tune into that and then halfway through I'd be like, no, I was sold a different story, this is not. This is not what I expected. So, anyway, I just thought that was hilarious.
Speaker 2:But this is not what I signed up for. What's our topic this month? That's really cool, cindy. This is not what I signed up for. What's our topic this month?
Speaker 1:That's really cool, cindy, yes, cindy, oh, I'm a Least likely to succeed Everyone's high school yearbook. Should I just rip up my story with Abraham Lincoln?
Speaker 2:No, I'm kidding, no, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, no, no, this, no, no, this is perfect, cindy, this is perfect.
Speaker 1:My lack of reading skills no. I'm just kidding. That was a whimsy, cindy. I did least likely to succeed too. I'm disappointing you.
Speaker 2:Got me good, oh my God no you got me so good.
Speaker 1:I know we all would love to hear the story of Abraham Lincoln. I'm not even mad, I'm just impressed I've got something else planned for you, katie, something else to tickle your fancy and the fancies of all. That's wrong. I'm not. That's not appropriate. I'm a married woman.
Speaker 2:Listen, cindy, whatever you do in your free time, the fancy you want to tickle, all the fancies. Little fancy tickler, you do what you do. I'm not here to judge, most most likely to speaking of high school superlatives. Fun fact cind Cindy was named tickler, I'm proud to say.
Speaker 1:For the last 20 years I have lived up to my reputation. Oh sweet Jesus, where is this going? No, katie, would you like your fancy tickles? I'm crying. When we came up with a theme for this story, right Least likely to succeed, I pretty much knew right away what the topic was that I wanted to cover, but I still wanted to do a little research to see what was out there. I wanted to do a little tick to see what was out there. I wanted to do a little tickling, a little Google tickling, something, google. Okay, I partook in the Googling and, interestingly, okay. So there are so many stories out there about people who shouldn't have succeeded but they did, despite all the odds. I wanted to share a story of people who flat out did not succeed. I don't want to share an American success story, no, just a story of people who did not succeed whatsoever.
Speaker 1:So, katie, my least likely to succeed story is brought to you by Neanderthals. Yes, yes. So first of all, I feel there's a small part of me, the entire species that feels like my britches are too big. Is that a saying? There's a part of me that feels like I'm too big for my britches when I say neanderthals it's like aunt too big for your britches like I say aunt because it feels.
Speaker 1:It feels more sophisticated like I, I feel like I'm more educated when I say aunt, but then I'm like but Cindy, you are from New Jersey. Like you were born in New Jersey, you should say aunt and so like. When it comes to Neanderthals, I know the proper pronunciation is Neanderthals, but then I'm like Cindy, you were born in New Jersey. You should say Neanderthals. So I am going to say Neanderthals because it's technically the correct way to say it those of you who say Neanderthals, I'm right there with you.
Speaker 1:I'm right there with you in spirit.
Speaker 2:I feel like you have a full right to do that, because you are the proprietor of a very successful history podcast so you go, girl you go I thought you were saying because I have a podcast, I have a right to anything. No, I mean, you can say both. I damn well, please. I think so. Yes, this is the equivalent of the public square, so to speak. It's our goddamn First Amendment. Right to say whatever the hell we want, right Neanderthals.
Speaker 1:So I have a question for you when were you when you first learned that modern humans did not evolve from Neanderthals?
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, like biology class when it finally clicked that, like we are not descended from monkeys, it's all the product of our own individual you know evolutionary path, which is funny because I literally had this conversation with my six-year-old.
Speaker 1:I'm so glad that you're raising her right, katie, because that's the kind of you. You're a great mom? I don't think so. I think well, it's funny because I actually asked. I tested this out on my husband because he's a really smart guy, but he honey don't take this the wrong way when you hear this but he represents like the average person. He's like I do. I've never literally thought about Neanderthals. Neanderthals.
Speaker 2:I've never thought about youthals, neanderthals, I've never thought about, you know, the roman empire and so I said I said so.
Speaker 1:When I say neanderthals, like uh. I asked him um, do you think that humans came from neanderthals, or when did they come from neanderthals, or something? He's like I don't know, like I think yeah, neanderthals were early humans, or something. So, anyway, I floated this on my husband. Most people at one time or another either thought, or many still think, like my sweet husband, that modern humans evolved from Neanderthals, and this just isn't true. When we learn about human evolution, like in school, we picture a line of humans progressing from apes to us, right, modern humans. But evolution, like you are teaching your daughter, katie, is a little bit more complex than that. So I'm going to try to keep this as simple as I possibly can. Let's go back 12 million years ago, and this is when a common ancestor to hominins, aka humans, gorillas, uh, bonobos I always want to say bonobos, that's also the new jersey and me coming out like no rein it in cindy neanderthals, bonobos. So anyway, hominins, gorillas, bonobos and gorillas they all shared a common ancestor, um, and this common ancestor lived in africa. Now africa is basically ground zero for human evolution. The easiest way to explain this is that gorillas eventually break off and they do their own evolution thing, which ultimately results in the modern day Western and Eastern gorillas.
Speaker 1:Around 8 million years ago, the last common ancestor for hominins, chimpanzees and bonobos lived. Bonobos and chimpanzees then break off and do their own evolution thing, continue to evolve into different species, with most scientists recognizing about 15 to 20 different species of early humans, which includes neanderthals. Now scientists don't agree on how all of these species were related to each other if they they were related at all and which species just became totally extinct. Two and 1.8 million years ago, early humans migrated out of Africa and into Asia, and then they migrated to Europe between 1.5 and 1 million years ago. It's important to note that Homo sapiens, aka modern humans like you and me, katie they didn't appear until 300,000 years ago when they emerged from Africa. So when Homo sapiens came onto the scene, it wasn't like bam, now we're all Homo sapiens. Yeah, there were other species of archaic humans still around. Neanderthals evolved in Europe and Asia while modern humans again.
Speaker 1:Our species, homo sapiens, were evolving in Africa, so things were happening like. At the same time, I want to point out that there was another group of archaic humans called the Denisovans. Denisovans, oh, denisovans, denisovans. There was. There was another group of archaic humans called the denisovans, who overlapped with the neanderthals and early homo sapiens, who were only discovered in 2008, and they still kind of remain a mystery. So I'm gonna discuss exclusively neanderthals for this episode. But I mean no shade to the Denisovans. I'm sure they're gray people, but we're just going to skip over them right now. That's right.
Speaker 2:We're ignoring them again, just like we have for most of human history.
Speaker 1:I feel guilt On fossil evidence. Neanderthals were well established in Europe by like 400,000 years ago. Neanderthals ranged from Wales and Portugal and all the way across to the Altai Mountains in Siberia. So that's a pretty wide range that Neanderthals had. So some of the like classic, hallmarky characteristics of Neanderthals were, of course, a long, low skull and a prominent brow ridge above the eyes. Their noses were big and wide, which interestingly, may have been an actual adaptation to the cold weather. So scientists think that the bigger the nose, the easier it was to moisten and warm the air that neanderthals would have breathed in, which I thought was kind of cool.
Speaker 1:Neanderthals did not have big chins, but their front teeth were very large, demonstrating that they use their teeth to help prepare food and other materials. So, like when kids want to just go and like open their chips with their teeth food, it's just neanderthal, like their teeth food. It's just neanderthal, like exactly yeah. So their bodies were bulky, broad, strong and muscular. Adults were between five feet and five foot seven and they weighed between 140 to 180 pounds. It's believed that their bulky bodies and shorter limbs helped to minimize the skin surface area to help them conserve heat better. It's also been suggested that their body proportions gave them more power for close range ambushes during hunting.
Speaker 1:So we're all dying to talk about this Neanderthal brains. The stereotype, of course, is that Neanderthals were pretty dumb, right? We've all seen the commercials, we've all seen the movies, where Neanderthals are just portrayed as kind of like fumbling buffoons. Interestingly, their brains were actually larger than the brains of modern humans which insert millennial joke here and they were quite intelligent. We know that they were skilled tool makers and even developed an innovative stone technology called the Leveloy technique around 300,000 years ago.
Speaker 1:Large prey up close. They hunted things like bison. Large prey up close. They hunted things like bison, mammoths and reindeer, and this, of course, meant that they were not only just skilled hunters, but they also had the ability to communicate on a very basic level. Because, let's face it, if you're trying to hunt down a mammoth, it's a team effort and you have to be able to communicate some basic things to your teammates. I don't know what you call who you hunt with, but your hunting party. So while we don't know what Neanderthals were capable of saying and what they sounded like, we do know that they had similar vocal anatomy to us and their ear bones suggested that they had a similar range of hearing as us it.
Speaker 2:Also, if they're doing organized hunts, they probably had some form of language, because you have to be able, or at least the ability to have like concepts of time, because if you're talking, if you're planning out a hunt, you need to have some idea that there's something in the future that's going to happen. So if we're going to talk about when we get here, you need to be here and you need to be here.
Speaker 1:Interesting, interesting. I'm going to circle back on that later on. He'll tell me what your thoughts are on that. Um, so we also know that some neanderthals looked after their sick and buried their dead, which suggests they were compassionate and social beings. They made art and jewelry. So, um, they we actually have evidence of artwork in spanish caves. What kind of art did they make? They took some red pigment and they made some very basic geometric shapes. They weren't necessarily I don't know all my art terms but they weren't representing animals per se, but it's believed that they were representing more abstract ideas with their artwork. They made pieces of jewelry out of eagle talons, abstract ideas with their, with their artwork. Um, and they made jewelry, like they made, um, pieces of jewelry out of Eagle talons, oh, interesting. So, yeah, they had a, they. They had a very eclectic taste. Yes, you would say um, yes, yes, um. So we have archaeological and fossil evidence of Neanderthals in Europe up until about 40,000 years ago.
Speaker 1:And after that, katie, they just seem to vanish. They like go completely extinct. So the question, of course, is why? Why did they go extinct? And, of course, a lot of people think that they were simply killed off by Homo sapiens. Again, going back to how Neanderthals are portrayed in movies and cartoons, people just have always assumed that Homo sapiens were just way more intelligent than Neanderthals and therefore they just went and killed them all. But I need to point out that, remember, homo sapiens and Neanderthals were in each other's territory, in places like Europe, for more than 10,000 years. In other words, they coexisted for like 10,000 years.
Speaker 1:So while it's possible that some Homo sapiens killed off Neanderthals, it's currently believed by most researchers that there were actually a lot more, a lot of other factors that contributed to the disappearance of Neanderthals. Rapid climate change may have been a factor. Researchers have discovered that there were some pretty extreme climate fluctuations during the last 100,000 years of the Neanderthals' existence. When these severe changes in temperature happened, neanderthals, their animal and plant food sources were affected and therefore it basically became a survival of the fittest for Neanderthals. Many Neanderthals would have died due to the lack of their food sources, and those who were left were unable to build up large populations, which likely resulted in another factor, which is inbreeding Research.
Speaker 1:Yes, research of Neanderthal DNA indicates that Neanderthals were low in numbers and genetic diversity during the last 20,000 years of existence. Inbreeding of course leads to a lot of problems, including the reduction of reproductive fitness, which again means just lower numbers of Neanderthals. And yeah, of course there is the factor of competition with Homo sapiens and while Neanderthals weren't the lumbering cotton-headed nitty-mungans, that card, that's like the best way I can come up with to explain how we see Neanderthals. Okay, I can come up with to explain how we see neanderthals cartoons, movies, they all make them out to just be like yes, they're all portrayed like as being, yes, bumbling buffoons um, yes, the way they'reanderthal brain.
Speaker 1:while larger than the brain of a Homo sapien, it was designed for physicality and the processing of visual data, being able to, you know, see really well and have a very strong body. Those are all things that are helpful for hunting. Leaves less room for the frontal lobe, which helps with planning. So, kind of going back to what you said, katie, homo sapiens, one reason why they did so well is because they were really good at planning and adapting to different situations. So, like when the weather got really cold, they taught themselves how to stitch clothing to keep themselves warm. They also adapted by eating a variety of foods, depending on what the climate was like. They figured out how to hunt from a distance by throwing spears and they learned how to make nets for fishing so they could really like diverse, like you said, diversify what they were doing, not just relying on tall brains also didn't have a lot of space for the parietal lobe which helps with communication.
Speaker 1:So, while we think neanderthals were able to communicate with each other on a basic level, homo sapiens had the ability to gossip, and I'm pretty sure I brought this up in another episode that we did and I don't remember what it was about.
Speaker 1:But yes, it's true, believe it or not, the lack of the ability to gossip may be another factor for the disappearance of Neanderthals. Gossiping is actually really important for cultures, yes, and it's way more important than what we give it credit for. So by gossiping, homo sapiens were able to get to know each other on a really deep level and they were able to learn who in the group was dependable and trustworthy or not. This information allowed small groups of homo sapiens to actually grow larger and cooperate better and form tighter alliances. We're talking groups of homo sapiens of up to like 150 people. On the other hand, the lack of ability to gossip kept Neanderthal groups pretty small and prevented them from expanding. So, kind of circling back to what you were saying about the planning piece, I think they could plan to an extent, but it was the, the adaptation, like you said.
Speaker 2:It was that ability that they lacked, which prevented them from growing like homo sapiens and as we're talking, I'm thinking it could also I'm also making a jump that they were planning ahead of the hunts, like it could have just been communication in the moment. So, like you go there, you go there and less, more, less of a right.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, and probably in the moment they, everybody knew what their jobs were and if you're hunting like, let's say, a I don't know how you hunt a mammoth, but there probably needs to be somebody in the back, somebody on the sides, I'm guessing. Um, and so people neanderthals probably knew what their roles were, but they, they couldn't like regroup and huddle afterwards and be like let's reflect and talk about what went well, what could we do better next time?
Speaker 1:so all of this is to say that you know, in contrast to what you know, media might tell you, neanderthals were really intelligent for for what they were able to do right for their, their, their lives. They were really good at what they did, but they just weren't in the same league as Homo sapiens and this is why they did not succeed. But not all was lost for Neanderthals. Like I said, homo sapiens and Neanderthals lived side by side for years and genetic research shows that some of them shared more than just the same territory, if you know what I mean. After sequencing Neanderthal genomes from remains found in Croatia, a team of researchers found that all non-Africans today have as much as 4% of Neanderthal DNA in their genome. So, katie, you might just have a little Neanderthal in you. That's probably true. Oh my God, katie, I didn't know. I was going to have to do math. Is there any?
Speaker 2:way to work out Laurie. So what does 4% equate to Like? How many great, great great grandparents?
Speaker 1:I don't know. It just means that there's a chance. There is like actually okay. So if I understand this correctly and again, there's a reason why we have a history podcast, not like a biology podcast. But my understanding is the part, the genetic makeup, and not a math. You or I hypothetically might have the part if, if you have hay allergies, cat allergies and dust allergies, you can thank neanderthal dna for that. I might have that, but I do know that those three allergies come from Neanderthal. That's crazy Genomes.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Really, those are the only things that I've read about. That stood out. Is there anything else that we can thank?
Speaker 2:the first neanderthal relatives for anything else I don't know yeah how much. I mean how many cats were neanderthals around, or maybe that's the problem is they weren't around cats well, I don't, I want to say saber-toothed tigers, but I don't know if they they share a common ancestor with modern house cats, because I do know that modern house cats are a product of like the middle east, like that's where they originate from, but that that also kind of overlaps with neanderthal, but not by a lot, it's like I don't know what.
Speaker 1:The more the asia evolution pattern for modern that also kind of overlaps with Neanderthal Denisovans, but not, and again, it's like I don't know what the Like more the Asia Evolution pattern for modern cats is either. There you go, there you go.
Speaker 2:So, oh, so less. So maybe they weren't supposed to it, so that's why they're allergic to it.
Speaker 1:I do. I mean, do we? But like, do you feel as bad for Neanderthals as you do like Australopithecus afarensis? I think it's because I think we feel a stronger connection to Neanderthals, perhaps just because they really do. They were kind of the last cutoff before Homo sapiens just exploded and took over everything. You know, it's not like we don't have any more branches of our evolution, our evolutionary tree, as far as I know. I don't know how that works exactly, but I don't think we do. I think it's like Homo sapiens and that is it exactly. But I don't think we do. I think it's like homo sapiens and that is it. Um, and so you, when you, when you look at like these, these trees of evolution, it's like, oh, the neanderthals are inching up, they're like almost right there with the homo sapiens, and then it just stops.
Speaker 2:You're like oh, I do. I do wonder how different would our society, our culture be if they had been able to maintain so that you have these two? I, I think, I think we would have wiped them out eventually. To be honest, I think it would have been one of those either we wipe them out or they wipe us out. But it is very interesting thought experiment to think oh, what if?
Speaker 1:they had been able to maintain for the last 40,000 years. I feel like there's nearly about that. It would be a very interesting experiment. Not George of the Jungle. Yeah, Harry Henderson. Harry and the Hendersons Is that not what that is? Oh, he's a Bigfoot. Oh, that's true. Harry and the Henders is that not what that is? Oh, he's a Bigfoot. Oh, that's true.
Speaker 2:Harry and the Henders. No, he was a Bigfoot, yeah, but you know what I want to link these together. Maybe that's where we get, because in so many cultures you have this story of these big apes like oral traditions so maybe that's where, at least partially, that's where it kind of comes from, that you know this, this cultural remnant of having to and now that you say that, I completely take back what I said about hair.
Speaker 1:hair, our evolutionary tree, is just like homo sapiens, and that's it. There's a whole group of people out there who would argue with me and say that, no, like Bigfoot, right is a whole other branch that we do not acknowledge in science, and so, yes, I think you're absolutely right. It's something that we still think about and intrigues us because of our connection to our common ancestor.
Speaker 2:That's why I tell my children, when they're like we're scared of the dark, I'm like no.
Speaker 1:It's your evolution catching up with you.
Speaker 2:You're not scared of the dark, you're scared of cave bears, evolution catching up with you scared of the dark. Yes, you're scared of cave bears. They don't exist anymore. You're fine. Yes, oh, I hate those cave bears there's no monsters under your bed because there's no more cave bears. You're fine, go to bed. Good night, all right. So, cindy, I got a little excited when you started, or you.
Speaker 1:You hinted no, get out, get out, abraham lincoln, because this is why we are war related.
Speaker 2:I did do it on purpose, I did do it we, we scare me sometimes.
Speaker 2:I'm just gonna say we're on the same way. I know it's it's. We're tuned into the same frequency. So this least likely to succeed is all about the civil war period's greatest screw-up, like repeated screw-up, but yet he still manages to have a pretty successful life. I'll let you be the judge. You can decide if he was successful ultimately, or if he was just, if his life was just a whole mess of calamities. The person that I'm going to be covering is considered one of the greatest characters of the Civil War who left a trail of unpaid bills. One of the greatest characters of the Civil War who left a trail of unpaid bills, broken romances and political scandals wherever he went. This is none other than Daniel Edgar Sickles.
Speaker 1:I have no idea who you're talking about. Have you ever heard of him? Nope, nope, but you had me at broken romances.
Speaker 2:Buckle up Cindy. He was born October 20th 1918 or, according to other sources, October 20th of 1825. And we'll get into in a little bit why there's a little bit of a discrepancy. He was born in New York City. This is, for sure, known to Susan Marsh Sickles and George Garrett Sickles. His father was a patent lawyer and a politician. The young Sickles trained as a printer, but he eventually attended the University of the City of New York, which is now New York University, where he studied law and he was admitted to the bar in 1843, but very soon after opened his own legal practice. So after becoming firmly entrenched in with the infamous political organization that controlled the New York social and political scene known as Tammany Hall which might be setting off some AP history bells.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ap history. They lost me at like in the 1820s and then I was like done for the semester.
Speaker 2:Well, it was this organization where you know very prominent politicians and everything kind of came together to kind of rig elections and decide who was going to be getting which spots and, you know, undercut political rivals and it was the whole scandal. There was rigged elections and bribery up the wazoo and Sickles was just in the midst of it. So he was eventually elected to a state senate seat in 1847. So his first big scandal actually occurred in 1851, when a then 32-year-old Sickles fell in love with a young woman by the name of Teresa Baggioli. She was the daughter of a wealthy and well-renowned Italian singing teacher.
Speaker 2:So Teresa was described as exceptionally brilliant, learning to speak five languages at a very early age, and they seemed like a perfect match. He was politically connected and from a good family. She was well-to-do and cultured. However, there was only one little problem Teresa was 15. Oh shoot, mm-mm, mm-mm. And Sickles was friends with her uncle and she spent a lot of time at her grandfather's house where she lived and her uncle lived and Sickles had actually known her since she was an infant. But they only became reacquainted in 1851.
Speaker 1:So how old is he at this point?
Speaker 2:He's 32.
Speaker 1:Oh, he's 32. He's 32.
Speaker 2:But he did. After they started to kind of get together, he did create this rumor that he was actually born in 1825 to try and make the age difference, not so creepy?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, so basically what you're saying is all of the online dating BS started hundreds of years ago.
Speaker 2:We have Daniel Sickles to thank for that.
Speaker 2:Daniel Sickles we have to thank him. So, like I said, aside from like the really kind of creepy age difference that we've got going on there, sickles was a notorious. Lothario and Teresa's family were not excited at this little budding romance, and her family actually forbade the two of them to see each other. So what does this couple decide to do? They eloped and were married in a civil ceremony at the new york new york city hall in september of 18 1852, and so theresa's family had no, no option except to just like accept it like this is what's going to be, and she very quickly had a church wedding because seven months later theresa would give birth to the couple's only child, laura, in 1853. At the same year that laura was born, sickles was appointed to a lower ranking diplomatic position at the us embassy in lond. So Sickles, however, chose to leave his wife a new baby at home, instead, bringing one, miss Fanny White, with him on the journey. I could do a whole episode on Fanny White. She was the Victorian-era prostitute version of the ultimate girl boss.
Speaker 1:That's it, we we're coming up with a topic so you can do fanny white, oh, ultimate, what did you call it? We'll call it ultimate victorian prostitute. Girl boss, girl boss.
Speaker 2:That'll be our next episode she, I mean she, she got it done, like I I don't want to give too much, like I said something for another episode, but yes, we should definitely. Definitely we'll circle back and she was involved with sickles at least since 1847 and they had a very close relationship. He wasn't just some john like, they were romantically involved, um, and I mean he had taken her with him up to albany when he had to, you know, participate in state senate, um goings on um, and he would like even introduce her, like when he brought her up to albany with him and she would stay over in his hotel when he would come introduce her, when he brought her up to Albany with him and she would stay over in his hotel. When he would come down to breakfast, he'd introduce her to people at the breakfast table.
Speaker 1:So he wasn't trying to hide her. Meanwhile he's got a wife and baby at home, and so they're catching wind of this, I'm sure.
Speaker 2:Yes, he was officially censured by the Whigs when he brought her to visit the State Assembly Chamber. It turns out that the New York State Senate does not have a. Take your sex worker to work day.
Speaker 1:That surprises me. That really shocks me. Can you believe it? I'm not a big sex worker. I'm shocked.
Speaker 2:I mean especially given some of the scandals. I mean Anthony Weiner, like I can go on that's exactly what I'm saying yes.
Speaker 2:So this trip to london, you might want to kind of consider it like a bit huge. Sorry, I screwed up by knocking up and marrying my friend's little sister gift, or actually his niece. So oopsies, sorry about that Because according to historians, when White found out what Sickles had done and that he was actually going to be marrying Teresa, she allegedly tracked him down to a hotel and started to beat him with a writing crop.
Speaker 1:Good for her. Good for her and I love that it's a writing crop. It could have been anything right. It could have been like a rock, a stick, a broken bottle she's like no.
Speaker 2:So you know, sickles brought her to london and to make up for this little boo-boo, he brought her out publicly with him everywhere he went, so to dinner, to the theater, to even like official diplomatic events. He presented her to queen Victoria herself and, interestingly, he introduced her as Miss Bennett from New York. He had no qualms about kind of pulling the wool over Victoria's eyes because he felt like he was kind of thumbing his nose at the monarchy, like pulling one over on her, and he gave her the name Miss Bennett as a way to kind of taunt one of his political rivals and a man that he absolutely detested, a man by the name of James Gordon Bennett, who was the editor of a newspaper, the New York Herald. Take that, james, he plays fast and loose this Sickles guy if you haven't already picked up on that.
Speaker 2:So he returned to the US in 1855 when he was elected to the New York State Senate again and then to the House of Representatives. He and Teresa eventually moved to Washington DC where they lived on a house on Lafayette Square which is actually directly across the street from the White House actually directly across the street from the White House and I like to imagine that they might have attended some like block parties, because soon after they moved to Washington they became fast friends with Abraham Lincoln and if the rumors are true, he became even better friends with Mary Todd.
Speaker 2:No no, no, yep, yes, that's a rumor. Yes, she apparently gave their daughter like a gold bracelet that has an inscription like historians have this somewhere. It says like with like. My deepest affection to Laura from like Mary Todd so like I know, mary.
Speaker 1:Todd Lingen is not everybody's favorite she's not everybody's cup of tea, but that would be very ballsy of her.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it was more or less an open secret in Washington political circles that neither of the Sickles were particularly faithful to each other, and this really didn't become an issue until an anonymous letter was sent to Daniel Sickles in February of 1859, informing him of the details of an affair that his wife was having with a very notable Washingtonian at the time. Allegedly, Teresa had become ensnared by the guiles of a widower dubbed the handsomest man in Washington, a man named Philip Barton Key II, who was the district attorney for Washington DC and also the son of none other than Francis Scott Key, the author of the Star-Spangled Banner.
Speaker 1:I love this tangle. Wadby Weave, this is. I love it. He's just the most random. He's the most random connection.
Speaker 2:I wish that in history classes this is something that our teachers brought up more, that, like American history, everybody knows everybody. Like everybody was hanging out with everybody, everybody, knew everybody's business and it's like, like you know, we covered this, like john adams and benjamin franklin were slumber party buddies and yes, come, come on, there's just yeah, so much either.
Speaker 2:It's so rich, I know it's so good, it's so good so, unfortunately for the two lovers, they were not very discreet with their love affair, and Key would actually visit Teresa at her home. He would go for rides with her in her carriage and even escort her through the congressional cemetery for a little slightly spooky canoodling.
Speaker 1:How romantic let's be honest that would be. When I say how romantic, I mean how romantic that would be if someone took me on a date to like a historical cemetery for some canoodling like I'm all in and this is also the Victorian era.
Speaker 2:This is like peak spooky canoodling time Come on 100%.
Speaker 1:Yes, obviously, it's the place to be.
Speaker 2:When Sickles learned of her indiscretions he flew into a rage and he confronted Teresa. Initially she denied all the allegations that you know they're not true. But eventually she did come clean to her husband and he forced her to write a detailed confession letter that would eventually be published front page of Harper's Weekly. Whoa, he's not a forgiving man, whoa, whoa. So only a few days after learning the truth about his wife's affair, on february 27th 1859, sickles looked out his window to see none other than keys outside his home, attempting to signal theresa by like waving a handkerchief at her bedroom window.
Speaker 1:Has he tried singing the Star Spangled Banner? Caw, caw, caw. Oh say, can you see I'm in the road and need to talk, could you?
Speaker 2:imagine Holding up a boombox. It's a bad idea.
Speaker 1:yes, yes oh, I would love yes I want to be the neighbor. I want to, I want to find. Okay, a true gem of an artifact would be a letter from the neighbor to like her sister or somewhere, but like he won't believe what happened, this morning.
Speaker 2:So key, after failing to signal theresa to come down to him, he starts to walk away. So sickles sends a friend out to go and try and stop key, while sickles threw on an overcoat concealing three pistols. Why three? Because one's too few, four's too many. Gotta have come on. Come on, cindy, come on, fair enough. So sickles caught up with Keyes at the corner of Madison Place Northwest and Pennsylvania Avenue, which is right across the street from the White House. So Sickles loudly accused Keyes of desecrating his honor and he fired off five shots at point blank range, only two of which hit Key, key in the groin and just below his heart.
Speaker 1:Wait, I'm sorry. Yeah, he brought three pistols. Yes, he shot five At point blank range and only two hit him. Yeah, I mean, can you, can you say amateur or what?
Speaker 2:That's why he brought he brought the three pistols Because he's like this isn't going to end well. So that's why he brought the three pistols because he's like this isn't going to end well. So I just need to have a backup plan and, to be fair, there were like misfire, like he went to go shoot and there was a misfire and at this time sure, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah firearms aren't the most reliable, so you gotta, you know, bring a backup for the backup.
Speaker 2:And Key died pretty much on the spot, like he. He passed away very, very quickly. Sickles was quickly taken into custody and he confessed to the murder. Also, it didn't like hurt that they had 12 witnesses to this crime so the entire neighborhood.
Speaker 2:So what followed was quite possibly the biggest celebrity trial of the age. Sickles was represented by the legal genius Edwin M Stanton, who would later become Lincoln's Secretary of War. Stanton argued that Sickles killed Keyes because he was driven mad by the idea that his wife had forsaken their marriage vows. This was the first documented use of the plea of insanity in the American courts, and it only took one hour for a jury of Sickles' peers to acquit him of all charges.
Speaker 1:No, get out, they were all men weren't they?
Speaker 2:They were, and he was seen as being, like, a defender of, like, the honor of marriage, honor and the chastity of women. And, yeah, yeah, he was acquitted. He was acquitted and he immediately went back to his duties as a US congressman, of course. So the outbreak of the American Civil War seemed like the perfect opportunity for Sickles to leverage the country's new patriotic fervor to get his constituents to kind of forget about that little murder that he committed, because there were, believe it or not, some people who were still like felt as if he should have been held accountable for his crimes.
Speaker 1:Can you believe that? I mean, there's always somebody right.
Speaker 2:Sickles had been a commissioned officer in the 12th Regiment of the New York Militia since the early 1850s and when, you know, the war kicked off, he worked relentlessly to recruit eager young soldiers. For his efforts he was promoted to brigadier general. He was not satisfied with this at all and he started this lobbying campaign to get some of his friends in Washington to eventually promote him to the rank of general. And he was actually the only non-West Point graduate to hold this rank at that time. So he was a political appointee and not really. He didn't really earn it. However, historians do agree that he did have some battlefield successes. However, his most controversial engagement with the Confederate Army also happens to be our nation's, one of our nation's most famous battles, the Battle of Gettysburg. Oh, so on July 2nd 1863, which was the second day of the Battle of Gettysburg, major General George Meade ordered Sickles and his men into a defensive position on a hill known as Little Round Top. So I've seen a map of the positions of all the different generals and you want to think of it as like a big upside down? U, almost like a rainbow. So where Sickles was stationed is kind of like towards the bottom left leg of the rainbow and he was not really pleased with this because he felt like it was kind of beneath him to be put on this little tiny hill, literally known as Little Round Top. What a brat, what a brat. He thought that there was a better position. That was slightly forward, an area known as Peach Orchard, which is about a mile away from where he was. So he ordered, without any permission given. He just decided to order his men kind of forward and this created almost like a a little bit of a wedge formation and kind of broke that lower part of that, that rainbow leg. So there was kind of like a gap in the union forces and Meade was absolutely furious at this because the Confederates were able to almost encircle Sickles and his men. But Meade sent his men away from the rest of that rainbow shape to kind of support Sickles and make sure that they didn't get absolutely decimated.
Speaker 2:Sickles did end up losing approximately like 30% of his men in battle and he himself was significantly injured. A cannonball shattered his right leg, whoa. And when he learned that his leg would have to be amputated above the knee, sickles had a plan to kind of make this work to his advantage. Of course he did? He had recently learned of a new program by the Army Surgeon General at the newly founded Army Medical Museum in Washington DC. They were trying to collect wartime artifacts and any kind of anatomical anomalies or anything that had happened on the battlefield. So he had his leg that had to be amputated put in like this coffin shaped box and sent to washington dc with a card that read with the compliments of major general des katie, we're gonna have to take a pin and stick it in what you just said.
Speaker 1:We're gonna have to get her back around to and do a whole other episode on what you're just talking about. You're saying that during, as the war was actually going on, yes, people were thinking about the future. Yes, and not, like you know, the preserving the union, but rather like we got to collect people's weird body parts.
Speaker 2:yes, like all the crazy stuff that can happen in wartime, we need to document this. We need to save this for posterity.
Speaker 1:Oh, my gosh, I love, do, I love? I think I love that people like this exist. There's always, I mean, just like when you think times are so bad, there's somebody off to the side, being like we got to collect body parts, just like we're dealing with a war.
Speaker 2:We're dealing with but this is so cool.
Speaker 1:But people are dying, but this is so cool yes, I think I like that, I think I love that about humanity I'm not sure that there are history weirdos in every epoch of of humans yes, well, like going back, I feel like we always circle back to napoleon's pp. Yeah, but it's the same thing. Somebody was like you know, someday this could be worth something someone's gonna want to see this.
Speaker 2:He was like the, the um, the equivalent of like a boomer mom who's like we can't throw away any of your toys. You gotta save your beanie babies, they're gonna be worth something someday.
Speaker 1:Pull hands, peepee you go to your mother-in-law's garage and it's just full of like legs and peepees. Somebody had to do it.
Speaker 2:Somebody can't just let these things go waste, no one I gotta give this to my daughter-in-law someday.
Speaker 1:I need to be able to go to her house at christmas and be like remember that baby I gave you. Where is that? No, I don't want to see it. It's so unappreciated.
Speaker 2:So just this is actually a great segue, because, to ensure that his gift was appreciated, sickles would go and visit his leg on the anniversary of the loss of his leg. Are you kidding me? He would, and the first time that he went to go visit it he was pissed off because they didn't the museum did not save his foot as well. It's only like a small portion of his leg that it shows like where it was broken. He was pissed off because they didn't save his foot too. It's only a small portion of his leg that shows where it was broken. He was pissed off because they didn't save his foot too. It's like I sent you everything why?
Speaker 1:didn't you keep it all? I have to side with him on this, though that would bother me too. If that was my leg and my foot, I'd be like was it not good enough for you?
Speaker 2:It's only worth it. It's worth something if you have the entire set. Once you separate it out, it's not it's not worth anything anymore. And, cindy, you can go and see his leg. It's still on display. The museum is now the national museum of health and medicine. And you, road trip, road trip. We're gonna go see napoleon's pp and then we're gonna go see his leg.
Speaker 1:Boom, amazing, amazing I, and then we're gonna go see like boom, amazing, amazing, I'm in, I'm in so sickles also coupled his donation with an aggressive attempt to slander major general george meade.
Speaker 2:Um, because sickles felt slighted by meade that he didn't get like his full support to do this. And sickles believed that his actions had actually saved the day, that because he acted almost like a sacrificial lamb and the Confederates swarmed them that he, because he drew them away he is the one who made sure that the Battle of Gettysburg was won for the Union. He would actually write anonymous letters to newspapers extolling his bravery and his military prowess, extolling his bravery and his military prowess. And in some small way his efforts did pay off because he eventually did get a Medal of Honor for his quote, most conspicuous gallantry in the field, vigorously contested the advance of the enemy and continuing to encourage his troops after himself being severely wounded. But it should be noted, he did not get the honor until 34 years after his injury.
Speaker 1:He didn't do what he was told to do. He didn't stay where he was supposed to stay. Why does he get a medal? There's got to be money involved, don't you think? Don't you think he slipped like a few little abraham not abraham one would be super cheap and two that would be weird. He slept some benjamin franklin's and he must have.
Speaker 2:And if you think back to, or or remember um, when I did the, the podcast on the congressional medal of honor right after um, the, the civil war, like that, that like post-civil war period, there were a lot of people. They were just like handing out medals of honor like candy. So he was just one of those. Like here you go, buddy, there you go, everybody gets one good job. You showed up, so after job, you showed up. You showed up. So after the war, you showed up. Participation. That diminishes it. I mean, he did get injured, yes, but they were not given out at the standard at which they are given today.
Speaker 1:Again, he didn't do what he was told to do, so he got in and I mean I wasn't there. I don't know all the details, but I'm pretty sure there's a chance that he wouldn't have had this injury if he had just Right, maybe, maybe, I mean yes, and historians are also very torn as to whether his actions really did help or if it was a hindrance.
Speaker 2:I mean, ultimately the Union won the Battle of Gettysburg, they ultimately won the war, but it would have been a little bit easier if he had just not gone rogue. You know, who knows, who knows. But after the war Sickles continued to work in politics, both domestically during the Reconstruction and also as a diplomat to Colombia and Spain, where Sickles allegedly had an affair with the deposed Queen Isabella II of Spain. Good for him. Shoot your shot.
Speaker 1:He just he fell upward like that. Yes, Son of a gun.
Speaker 2:He did eventually retire, but even with his retirement, sickles was not free of controversy. No-transcript. He embezzled 27 000, which is the equivalent about 850 000 in us dollars today. Um, and that is the reason why because he embezzled that those funds. If you go to gettysburg there are statues to um each of and busts to each of the generals that served that day, and monuments. Sickles, his unit is the only one that does not have a statue of the actual man or a bust, because it's not that he embezzled the money for his own monuments and it never got made, it never got put up. So in the end he managed to kind of like erase himself from the historical record because of his greed. He played himself, he played himself and he did eventually pass away in 1914. But, cindy, that is the story of Daniel Sickles, the Civil War era's greatest screw up. So what do you think? Do you think he was the least likely to succeed? Or did he, like you said, did he fumble the ball upwards?
Speaker 1:kind of sounds like some other people in politics that I've heard about people who just get lucky.
Speaker 2:You're like you're only where you are because of your connections yeah, yeah and money and you're yeah.
Speaker 1:What do you think the moral of his story is Katie?
Speaker 2:um, I feel like it's like an anti-hero story. It's like, just if you, if you're so flipping full of yourself that you don't believe the hype, you can get away with anything, including murder.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like. I feel like that's what it's kind of a theme that I'm seeing come up again and again in our stories, where you can just be so bad, but you're remembered. People talk about you, they write about you. You're so bad that you made history, you know what I mean. Like we just kind of see time and time again. So again, the bar is low.
Speaker 2:The bar is low and so everyone is capable of greatness everyone's capable of ending up on a history podcast exactly yes, yes so how many, how many murders do you think I have to commit before I can get on a plane? No, no, no, don't even answer that, doubtless that got really dark really fast. No, no, how many. How many cancers can I cure? Let's reframe that. How many cancers can I cure before I get immortalized?
Speaker 1:You have to walk tall and carry three pistols. That goes on a t-shirt. That goes on a t-shirt. Or stand tall and carry a riding crop.
Speaker 2:Yes, you go, Fanny White.
Speaker 1:Well, Katie, that was an excellent, excellent story. Thank you for enlightening me.
Speaker 2:I enjoyed yours immensely. I learned a lot. I feel like I knew some things about the Neanderthals, but then I did so much new learning today about why they probably went extinct. I thought it was just that humans murdered them all, but I didn't know that there were other factors.
Speaker 1:Look at us educating ourselves and each other. I know Cheers, katie, cheers to education.
Speaker 2:And fancy tickling, I don't know. Thank you,