Not Another History Podcast
We are Cindy and Katie, and every two weeks we bring you a random theme and offer several of our favorite historical events loosely based on that theme. We are basically just living out our old lady fantasies of rocking on the front porch together, drinking, and gossiping about people who are already dead. Music: The Life of a Divorced Bumblebee by Josef Bel Habib (www.epidemicsound.com). Design: canva.com
Not Another History Podcast
You Think THAT'S Crazy
In honor of the 2024 election, we offer truly crazy stories in history. Katie shares the story of Anne Boleyn and Cindy shares the story of Hannibal Barca crossing the Alps.
Well, hi Katie.
Speaker 2:Hi Cindy, how are you?
Speaker 1:I'm good. Happy election season to you. And a happy election season to you and all those who celebrate can I just say I'm a big fan of the 11th hour mudslinging and pearl clutching. I love it, I love, I love how everyone's just like like somebody said what? Like surely we never, nobody would ever say that Nobody would ever behave like that. And you're just like.
Speaker 2:Exactly Like, yes, 100% Like. It's just the level of fake outrage is at epic proportions this year, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:I know it's everyone's just like. This election is so bad it's. It's never been this bad in history before, and I'm like y'all need some history podcasts in your life.
Speaker 2:You apparently have did not live at all during the what early 19th century. I feel like that was like the peak of like american political mudslinging and just ridiculous things but I think it even goes back farther than that, katie how far is it?
Speaker 1:how, so far, I I mean everyone, every, everyone, mean in America, everyone's like this is the most pivotal election in American history and, who knows, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Make sure you get out there and vote, but I don't feel like this is the craziest time in history. I feel like there have been a lot of crazy times in history.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, much more intense, crazy times in history. Yes, yes, much more intense, much crazier. Yes.
Speaker 1:Like if you think this is crazy, I have some Saguntumians that would beg to differ. Katie. Some who's you want to say Some Saguntumians? Have you ever heard of them? Where no, who are these folks? I will vaguely mention them in my story, vaguely. I need to know more. I will allude to them Sagamuntians, that's like a Roman thing, I think, isn't it? It's not ringing any bells. Not ringing any bells. Well, stay tuned, and we might ring some bells for you, katie I hope.
Speaker 2:so I'm pretty confused. I'm going to have to Google it.
Speaker 1:Let's bring in the Google. Should we also mention what our topic is for this month?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, what is it, cindy?
Speaker 1:What is it, Katie? What is it what?
Speaker 2:is it, it's, it's? You think no, you think no, I don't even know.
Speaker 1:We don't even know. Nobody knows anything anymore. It's the state of the world. Our topic is you think this is crazy? Just buckle up, because it's gonna get crazier, it's gonna get crazier, and we mean in a history sort of way yeah, we've been only fans for that other I was referring to the election, katie, oh oh yeah what are you referring?
Speaker 2:to how we keep this podcast afloat.
Speaker 1:So, speaking of being crazy, do you want to go first, katie, or do you want me to go first?
Speaker 2:I don't mind going first, as long as you. I mean, I feel like the definition of crazy is a little subjective and I need you to just kind of like bring down your expectation a little bit.
Speaker 1:So actually. So I went back and forth with the topic, with my topic for a bit Because, like you, I think yeah, what does it mean to be crazy? I was originally going to do my story on presidential assassinations. Katie, do you know how many presidents have had assassination attempts against them? Do you know?
Speaker 2:how many presidents have had assassination attempts against them, like attempts or successful, like just in general?
Speaker 1:attempts in general uh, I'm gonna say six but, like every single one of them, every single one of them has had assassination attempts, now to varying degrees of like attempt, but it was. It was kind of disturbing. And then I was like Cindy read the room, like maybe this is not the appropriate time to talk about presidential assassinations, so I took a totally random twist of mine. My point, just being with my story, is just that all of history has been crazy and I don't. Well, I think it's great to feel like the time that you're living in is pivotal and important because it is we.
Speaker 2:A crazy time in history is kind of subjective and arguably every time in history has been a little bit crazy, that's true, result in something that never could have been anticipated and just create something out of completely out of left field. That's monumental, um momentous, and just changes the world as we know it, you know. Well, that's discomforting, Cindy perhaps this podcast episode sets into motion the end of the world I'm not saying it's going to or perhaps it brings about a utopian society. We could go either way.
Speaker 1:That's a lot of pressure to put on our little podcast, Katie I know, just this episode, just this one episode, just this episode.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, this one episode, just this episode, just this one.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, well, bottoms up. I guess we should say I have a drink in my hand, not the other guy's. Bottoms up, put that away. Katie, put that away.
Speaker 2:If you want to see more, go on to our OnlyFans. No no, we don't.
Speaker 1:No, but what's funny is we only have like three fans, one of whom is still not my mother, katie and I are so old that when we say OnlyFans we're referring to like our OnlyFans, onlyfans we're referring to our OnlyFans.
Speaker 2:So I went a little bit crazy with my topic. So, Cindy, how much do you know about Anne Boleyn?
Speaker 1:I've seen a few movies. I've watched a few YouTube videos on her few movies. I've watched a few youtube videos on her. Uh, I know she lost her head, but I also know that she was quite. She was very smart, yes, kind of sassy, kind of I don't know just kind of a cool, a cool chick until she lost her head. And even then, even even then, she's still was. She's been cool in history too.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I don't want to undercut like her coolness factor, that's kind of out there by historians, but I, you know she's really been portrayed as like this scheming seductress, that she's this like manipulative woman who just like beguiled Henry VIII, and I mean she pretty much she's the reason why we have the Church of England and why the England broke with the Catholic Church. So that's a not insignificant role to play in the history of the world. But if you do a little bit of a deeper dive, you know historians are starting to kind of view her in a very different light, like she's actually. She is a woman who is very intelligent, but her life is actually really tragic. And I don't want to turn this into like a poor little rich girl story, but I feel like there were a lot of things at play that kind of forced her into this role, this like very prominent role in history, her into this role, this like very prominent role in history, and I could say she kind of made the best of it. But a lot of things, terrible things, happened to her to get her to where she was and I I do feel a lot, I feel like very sorry for her, I mean aside from losing her head, but all the other, everything else In addition to that, everything else In addition to that, in addition to that.
Speaker 2:So my story is going to be taking, like I said, a little closer look at at Anne Boleyn. Maybe history should be a little bit more forgiving of her and a little bit more understanding of her and not necessarily view her as this, like femme fatale in, like a ruffle collar. Anne Boleyn was born around 1501. Historians are in a little bit of disagreement. It's either like 1501 or 1507. I feel like that's a really big range. They lean a little bit more towards 1501. At Bickling Hall in Norfolk, england.
Speaker 1:I just have to say too in my, in my biography if people would like to lean towards like seven years after I was actually born too, that would be okay with me. Which?
Speaker 2:but. But then it's gonna skew everything backwards and your husband's going to look like oh, kind of creepy, yeah, maybe well, let's just skew everything back seven years. Well no, because then it's all just proportionate.
Speaker 1:That's weird. Okay, forget, I said anything.
Speaker 2:She was born in Bickling Hall in Norfolk, england, into a noble family, though one not of the very highest ranks. Anne was described as her father as being quote the happiest of his children, which is interesting because she was the middle child. That does not exist, but unfortunately her mother died when she was still very young. The Bolins were ambitious from a young age and was groomed for a life at court.
Speaker 2:She spent the majority of her youth in what is now modern-day Belgium and then later in French court, an experience that would actually shape her in very significant ways. So in France she obviously learned how to speak French, which at the time was like the language of nobility, not necessarily just Latin and Greek, although others were instructed in that language, but French was really what the upper crust spoke. And she also refined her education in literature and music and in dance. So Anne's education and not just formal education but also her education in like the finer things in life and and French fashion and music it gave her this unique presence that when she returned to England she really kind of like when she when she could walk into a room and light it up, essentially, which I feel is like what they say at every Dateline and NBC.
Speaker 1:That's exactly what I was going to say too. We smiled at the room.
Speaker 2:She's described as being very witty, very well-spoken and just overall very magnetic personality spoken and just overall very magnetic personality. And it is also really important to understand that Anne was not necessarily considered like conventional beauty of the time but that like her allure came from that, that inner radiance that she just kind of exuded.
Speaker 1:That's what people say about me too. They're like we like her for her personality, but you said it a lot in a much nicer way. She's got a great personality.
Speaker 2:She's really got good morals, nice. So Anne eventually did return to English court around 1521 in order to marry James Butler, the son of Sir Pierce Butler, but this was in order to settle a land dispute, not because she actually loved him. However, the marriage never took place and it was suggested that this was influenced by Cardinal Wolseley at the behest of King Henry. In 1522, she actually joined the household of Queen Catherine of Aragorn, henry VIII's first wife, and at this time Anne really didn't have any interest in Henry. And by 1522, she was actually engaged to Henry Percy, who was the son of a noble family and he was in Colonel Wolseley's retinue. Everybody's kind of intermarried and connected to everybody. So a lot of these names are going to pop up over and over and over again.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, this relationship again was ended by the Cardinal and under pressure. We do have a lot of evidence that Henry was definitely involved, that she caught his eye and he really wanted to put the kibosh on this. Anne was kind of banished to her home and have her castle, and Henry Percy was forced to marry another woman. Anne was absolutely heartbroken and her plans for marriage and to have a peaceful and conventional life were destroyed. So, cindy, here's where we're going to have to pause for a minute and just kind of consider anne's position. So henry's the king and he's got immense power, and this is at a time when royal authority was absolutely he could do whatever he wants. Throw you in a dungeon yeah, sure, why not?
Speaker 2:if you want to go, uh over to ireland and commit some atrocities, why not? I'm the king, I can do whatever I want. And her own sister and her married name is Carrie. Her first name is Mary, so she's Mary Carrie. She was one of Henry's mistresses and supposedly the father of two of her children, and Henry had her as one of his mistresses up until 1526, when he starts pursuing Anne. And Anne is really faced with only a couple of choices. She can either reject the king outright, which is impossible because he's not going to take no for an answer, but if she gives in to him and becomes his mistress, she could just be cast aside when he loses interest in her as well, and she would be ruined. No man would want to take her on for a number of reasons, and it would just be very difficult.
Speaker 1:Can I stop you for a second here? So why did Henry want to pursue her? We know she lit up a room, lit up a room, aka, she had a great personality. But why did he? What was it about her specifically? I mean, he broke off an engagement for her, or he broke off her engagement, like why?
Speaker 2:I think I think it was that just the draw of her. I do think that she was that engaging and I do also feel like it's a little bit of a he wants what he can't have, you know.
Speaker 1:I'm the king I should be able to have whatever I want.
Speaker 2:And she was resistant to him. In fact she, like in in 1526, 1527, she goes into like a self-imposed exile. She leaves and goes to her family's estate to kind of get away from the court and get away from things. And henry starts writing her love letters. But and we, which we still have, we don't have any of her letters that survive from, from and to henry. They were destroyed.
Speaker 2:After, after she was executed, he went on like a rampage and the Romans would refer to it as damnatio memoriae. It literally means the damnation of memory, where you go out and you scrub every existence of that person off the planet, essentially as if they never really existed. And so one of those things he just like all of her letters were destroyed. I know that there's a number of of places where, like, her initials were like carved off the sides of buildings and you know, her monogram was destroyed so that literally no reference to her ever existed. And the letters that we have, they're really interesting in what Henry has to write to her about, when his love letters really say to her, and they're all written in French because, again, at the time that's the language of the courtly set, it's the language of love. So one of his letters he wrote, he sent her a deer and he sent a letter that says- Wait, like literally a deer.
Speaker 2:Yes, like a buck. And he wrote you know, this is a buck killed late last night by my own hand, hoping that when you eat of it you may think of the hunter.
Speaker 1:So years ago when I was on Matchcom, I had several men write me similar letters. They never actually sent me a buck, but they were like, hey, I can hunt you dinner and cook it for you. And I was like delete, swipe, delete. So I don't know where Henry learned his wooing skills, but that would not work for me.
Speaker 2:I mean, I feel like when you do the king, no one's really going to criticize your wooing skills. They're like yes, sir, that sounds like a great woo Woo Hoo, go for it.
Speaker 1:Woo, woo Hoo Hmm.
Speaker 2:Oh, letter 15 is very. I think you're going to love this. Um Henry, writes he and this is a quote wishing myself especially an evening in my sweetheart's arms. Those pretty and I'm assuming that the pronunciation is ducks, it's D-U-K-K-Y-S duckies.
Speaker 1:I trust worthy to kiss.
Speaker 2:Is that referring to what I think it's referring?
Speaker 1:to Cindy what do you think duckies are? I think you know what I think duckies are, katie. This is a family-friendly show. They always come in pairs. They always come in pairs. Well, I shouldn't say that Sometimes they don't, but typically Sometimes there's like five. Oh, wait, no. Typically Sometimes there's like five, wait, no. Always in sex, five little duckies. What are you? I feel like we're on two different pages here right now. Yes, cindy, we are.
Speaker 1:Five little duckies went out one day Over the hills and far away, Cindy duckies are breasts I know they are Katie, but then you said they don't always come in pairs and I thought you meant ducks. If you've had a mastectomy, okay, then can we just delete from the record. If you've had a mastectomy, okay, then can we just delete from the record. When I sang the song Five Little Ducks, ducks, ducks, duck, duck goose, mammery ducks, aren't they called ducks?
Speaker 2:Oh yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, it took us a little while to get there, but we did. Mammery ducks, I'm crying. Oh Jesus Christ, we got there, katie.
Speaker 2:So he wanted to kiss the ducks and some might consider these letters very sweet, a symbol of a man's undying affection.
Speaker 1:Can I just state for the record that I did not at any point, yes, think that maybe it's the 21st century in me and and I would agree because, as historian hayley nolan says, if it can end in decapitation, it was never love.
Speaker 2:I second that If it can end in decapitation, it was never love.
Speaker 1:I second that.
Speaker 2:So by 1527, Henry was absolutely desperate to have Anne as his queen. But Anne had one little problem she was already married. She was already married. Don't you hate when something like a wife gets in the way of? I hate that, I do.
Speaker 1:I do, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it.
Speaker 2:Anne's relationship with Henry became the center of political and religious whirlwind as Henry sought an annulment. Henry's obsession with Anne became so intense that he broke with the Pope and the Catholic church entirely, leading to the English reformation. And you know, anne was, historians say, like she was waiting and hoping for marriage. Because she did not. She was so religious and she was so committed to her morals that she didn't want to be this mistress. She didn't want to be kind of tossed aside, she wanted to have some kind of security. And she had to endure years of insults and rumors and his hostility, not just from within the court but outside the court. And many of Catherine's supporters viewed her as this usurper, a harlot who was trying to destroy their beloved queen and destabilize England.
Speaker 2:And the public's hatred for Anne became intense. She was called the Great Whore and all these rumors about her were swirling. They claimed that she was a witch and that she had beguiled the king and she was just trying to bring an end to their society. And her position was becoming more and more dangerous. She wasn't this power-hungry woman who's bent on breaking up a marriage, but she was just kind of caught up in the desires of this king who she really couldn't refuse in any real way. Henry had his sights set on her and there was very little that she could do besides try and the best way that she could to maneuver security for herself and any of her future children. We do have some evidence that the toll was very hard on her mental and physical health and she had to wait for years, kind of like in this limbo.
Speaker 2:It wasn't until 1533 that Henry's marriage to Catherine was finally annulled and Anne became queen. There is some speculation that she and Henry had married in secret the previous year, in 1532, because by her coronation in June 1533, she's visibly and heavily pregnant and there's a lot of speculation that she wouldn't have consummated their relationship until she was, in her eyes, actually married to him. And the pressure on Anne only intensified because, as we know, catherine never provided Henry with a male heir and the hope was and expectation was that Anne was going to give him that desperately desired male heir. And the hope was and the expectation was that Anne was going to give him that desperately desired male heir.
Speaker 2:But her first child was Elizabeth and she was a huge disappointment for Henry at the time. But she grew up to become one of England's greatest monarchs. So Anne's position was still really precarious. So she had produced a child but not a male heir. Anne's position was still really precarious, so she had produced a child but not a male heir. She still really had no strong allies in court. The king's counselors were kind of eager to see her replaced, especially after she got pregnant very quickly again but then suffered a miscarriage and Henry's affections really started to shift after that second miscarriage and he started to get kind of flirty and kind of touchy touchy with gene seymour that name should be very familiar, dr quinn went medicine woman, yes, I mean the other one.
Speaker 2:Yes, both of them wonderful ladies. I'm sure um ann gets pregnant again after this. That second that um ann gets pregnant again after this, that second that Anne gets pregnant again after that miscarriage, and her hopes for remaining relevant are kind of pinned on this pregnancy. However, in January January of 1536, henry falls from his horse and he's knocked unconscious for about two hours, just five days after Henry's accident, and miscarries her baby. Historians kind of surmise that after Henry fell off the horse he was unconscious. He probably suffered some significant brain damage, because afterward his behavior starts to become even more erratic and extreme. And by April so this is 3 months after she's had a miscarriage he starts an investigation into claims that the queen is committing treason against him behind his back.
Speaker 2:So by 1536, henry finally finds a way to rid himself of Anne. She gets arrested for adultery, incest and charges of high treason, charges that today historians are 100% sure were just completely fabricated, particularly considering that Anne, she was very deeply religious. And at this time you know, even though you're the Queen of England, you're going to have very little privacy. You're going to have, you know, your handmaidens, your ladies-in-waiting, constantly around you. You never really have any free time to yourself. So how could she arrange to have one lover, let alone five, that she's accused of having affairs with, including her own brother? And, like I said, there's no evidence to suggest that she was ever unfaithful to Henry? This is just a really convenient way for him to try and get rid of her and also some other political rivals. So Anne is subjected to a sham trial and despite her passionate defense, which she maintains up until she's executed, she's found guilty and sentenced to death. So even in her final days she showed remarkable composure. We have letters from her jailer to others, kind of stating that the most that she can be accused of is just kind of breaking down her final hours and just accepting not necessarily accepting her fate, but just the realization that she's going to die and there's not going to be like a last minute save or she's not going to get out of this in any way. And so she was, I guess, just praying and begging God to save her. But I guess, you know, she, like I said, she maintained her innocence until the very, very end. On May 19th of 1536, anne was executed by a French swordsman, who was brought in at her request to procure her a quick and painless death as opposed to death by axe. And she was only 35 years old. 11 days later, henry married Jane Seymour. Talk about a quick, quick rebound.
Speaker 2:So even though I feel like, even though Anne's story is it is tragic, I feel like we should kind of remember with more sympathy rather than scorn and kind of say well, you know, she got what she deserved. She broke up a marriage and she was a seductress. You know, she was just more of like a victim of herress. You know she was just more of like a victim of her time. You know she didn't really have a lot of choices and when it seemed like she was going to have her happy ending, I feel like a lot of things were kind of taken away from her by, you know, by essentially one man who wanted what he wanted. He didn't really care about her, her life or what, what, what she wanted, but in the end I feel like Anne kind of got her her life or what she wanted.
Speaker 2:But in the end I feel like Anne kind of got her revenge and her comeuppance because her daughter ended up becoming one of the most powerful women in the world, even though she really didn't know her mother. I mean, she was only what three when her mother died, and that's like the other crazy thing. You know, henry went through all this work to you know. Get an annulment from Catherine. Only for three years later. Get an annulment from Catherine only for three years later. Get an annulment from Anne and have her executed. You know, I feel like that. All that work, all that strife and struggle and tearing apart your country for for what? For what reason? So I, just I, I feel like history should be a little bit kinder to Anne Bolin, I feel like history should be a little bit kinder.
Speaker 2:To Anne Bolin Hear, hear, katie, so did you read anything that kind of gives us a glimpse into how Anne felt about Henry, because there's so little that's saved of hers Like there's not like a lot of letters saved of hers Like there's there's not like a lot of letters and, um, at that time women were really supposed to, you know, essentially stand by your man and support your husband, even when things are going wrong. And, um, because your behavior and how you speak of your husband is a reflection of him. And so, from what I've read and what I've I've seen, she was never really critical of him. It was more you know, we're all in this together, we're all, you know, like you're in a united front. Um, I support him because he's the king and he's, you know, appointed by god and so whatever he says, kind of goes so do you think it's more, um, so like?
Speaker 1:here you know, henry comes along and he breaks off her engagement with somebody else. Um, do you think that she was just kind of like, okay, well, let me turn my attention now to henry, because he's interested, and that's what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to stand by my man Rather than like. Did she? Did she carry some kind of resentment towards him this entire time that she just kind of had to work past? Or I'm just wondering how complicated were her feelings about him?
Speaker 2:I imagine very complicated, and you bring up a very good point, you know, and you bring up a very good point, you know, did she know? I mean, on some level she must have known that he was the one to break up her engagement. You know, on some did she? She must have that's a really good question. She must have, Because if Cardinal Woolsey is saying it and he doesn't have a good reason to break up their engagement, the only other thing has to be Henry.
Speaker 1:It's the kind of thing. Can we stand here 500 years later and say, oh, surely she knows, or she must have known what was happening, but maybe she didn't, I don't know. I just feel like, how do you even if you stay quiet about it throughout your entire marriage to the king how do you not carry some kind of resentment, especially towards the end, where you're just like man, like looking? Back on my life and all the things that happened. This guy's a real jerk Like.
Speaker 2:I should have just fled to France when I had the chance. Exactly, damn it. And and we, you know when we think or at least a very simplified view I think, that we have of of monarchy and aristocracy is oh, they have a very easy life, they have a charmed life, they can make, they can do whatever they want. They can, and to some extent. But she really didn't. There weren't. You know, she was at the, you know, at the control of her of, excuse me, she was really, you know, at the mercy of her father and then at the mercy of the king and kind of had to do whatever they said. You know, she wasn't really left with as many choices as we really think she had available to her, you know, I know, and jokingly we say, oh, she just could have fled to france, but that's not really a viable option for her at this time you know, it's really sad.
Speaker 2:It's like how many choices, how many choices that we make are truly our own.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's a little too heavy for the day before yes, but I mean, I think, and then I think there's all of that and then, plus, the overarching theme that you you already mentioned, is that the entire country of england was at the mercy of this guy and the person that he had a, he had a crush on like literally the whole country could have crumbled, yeah, could have crumbled to its knees, because he had a crush on somebody. And he's like I'm the kind of guy who gets what I want, if, if I want it, I'm going to get it, just like wow, you really put that into perspective. Like that's crazy, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's absolutely bananas.
Speaker 1:So, katie, let's play a little word association game. Shall we Okay? Yes, I say Rome, you say Caesar. Carthage.
Speaker 2:Salt their fields, so nothing may grow for a thousand years.
Speaker 1:Elephants.
Speaker 2:Hannibal.
Speaker 1:Hannibal. Yes, so, as you know, katie, as I know you well know this Carthage and Rome were at battle with each other for a long time. Yes, in fact, they were in battle with each other between 264 to 146 BCE. There were three wars between them during this time, known as the Punic Wars. Thank you, you're welcome. The Roman Empire and Carthage who can I just point out for anyone who's not Katie, who may not know this, those were the Phoenicians, and the funny thing about Phoenicians is that, in my mind, phoenicia, phoenicia, yeah, phoenicia came way before Rome. I honestly didn't really have an appreciation for how much overlap that they had.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, so you have the Roman Empire and you have Carthage, who were the Phoenicians, and they were battling each other for control of various areas of the Mediterranean. Spoiler alert Rome won all three Punic Wars but Carthage. They put up a really impressive fight.
Speaker 2:Katie.
Speaker 1:They did. Let's do a slow clap for Carthage. Now, Katie, you know the name Hannibal Barca. Does the name Hannibal Barca overwhelm you with feelings of fear and reverence?
Speaker 2:I do respect him as a military leader. He did a pretty good job. But I mean, if I saw him bearing down on me with elephants, yes, yes, I'd be very afraid. With elephants, I'd, yes, yes, I'd be very afraid.
Speaker 1:It's a little easy to be on like one side of a computer screen with a microphone being like oh, hannibal Barger, I don't know what the big deal is, I could take him in a.
Speaker 2:I could take him in a fight. He's not that hard.
Speaker 1:I could take him in an arm wrestle. Well, the name should overwhelm you with feelings of fear and reverence, because this is how he made Roman leaders feel for years, even after the Punic Wars were over. So Hannibal Barca was born in Carthage, which is now modern day Tunisia, in 247 BCE. The Carthage government had been in decline for years, but the tensions between Carthage and Rome had been growing. In 241 BCE, the First Punic War was lost to Rome and, if you do the math, this was around the exact same time that Hannibal was growing up. Hannibal's dad was a Carthage general, and it was expected that Hannibal would become a general as well. He was given a strong intellectual education and he was also taught advanced military methods. He was also infused with this horrendous hatred of Rome from a very young age. I mean, everyone was just like you have to hate Rome. This is what we do. So at 26 years old, Hannibal was made leader of the Carthage military. What were you doing at 26, Katie?
Speaker 2:Oh God, I think I was working at Whole Foods.
Speaker 1:You weren't running a military, the Carthage military, no, no. So Hannibal was made leader of the Carthage military in 221 BCE and while he was busy making preparations to seize power in the Mediterranean, the Romans were doing nothing about it. So they were receiving like allegedly they were receiving warnings about Hannibal's preparations, but they were like meh, like what's up in Ileria, like let's think about anything else but Hannibal. So, for whatever reason, rome just didn't care about Hannibal. So when he attacked the town of Saguntum, remember Saguntimians I think that's how you would pronounce it, I don't know. Anyway, hannibal attacks the town of Saguntum in 219, and Rome still didn't do anything about it. Now, saguntum was a very well-fortified city and it took months, but Hannibal's troops finally defeated Saguntum. Now, during this time, saguntum had contacted Rome for help, but Rome didn't send any help. So after Hannibal defeated the city, he offered to spare the people of Saguntum on condition that they were quote willing to depart from Saguntum unarmed, each with two garments, which is very specific. That's very nice. What two garments would you take, katie?
Speaker 1:Somebody said you can only take two garments only two socks, that's not even count, it's one garment are they a pair? You only get one you only get two socks, that's it.
Speaker 2:You can get two socks, it's one, it's one garment well, I mean not not to be, not to be a w downer or like a buzz kill or joy kill, but with the romans you really only needed to.
Speaker 1:You could have your tunic and then your toga, and then you're good so basically what he said, what he meant was you can bring your toga and your tunic like you have a whole outfit and you're good.
Speaker 2:even if you were a female, well, you would wear like a pala, which is like a really long dress that would be attached by brooches, and then you could also have like a scarf or like a whole, essentially like head-to-toe covering. It's like a robe where you can cover yourself up. So you'd be good. You'd be good. It's essentially, it would be like being able to take one dress and like a coat.
Speaker 1:So, like that wasn't unreasonable for him to say just two things, right, okay, well, that was very nice then. Well, I mean, the people of Saguntum said no thanks to this and they began to sabotage the town's wealth and possessions. So Hannibal had every single adult in Saguntum killed, and then, and only then, was Rome like let's do this, I suppose, and the Second Punic War began. So once again, rome and Carthage were at war. Hannibal was like okay, this is it, we're just going to cut to the chase and head to Rome and make the Romans defend their own territory, and the fastest way to do this is to cross over the Alps, and we're going to do it with elephants.
Speaker 1:Now, this is the part of the story where people hearing this story for the first time are like wait, wait, wait. Where did these elephants just come from? Like you just completely threw me a. This is the part of the story where people hearing this story for the first time are like wait, wait, wait, where, where did these elephants just come from? Like you just completely threw me a curve ball.
Speaker 1:What's the deal with the elephants? And who in their right mind would cross the Alps with elephants? And congratulations, this is exactly the reaction Hannibal was going for, but there was a little bit more to it than that. So if the elephants seemed random, then you should know that war elephants were an integral part of armies during this time period. Carthage used war elephants and even the romans used uh elephants, although they used them less as soldiers and more as pack animals. On the battlefield, elephants would often be stationed on the wings to keep the infantry from being flanked, or they would be put in line in front of the infantry. So can you imagine Katie being on foot on the opposing side and having a herd of elephants charge at you?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'd be scared, scared, poopy, less, like I would just be scared duckless. All my ducks would just my ducks would just pop right, my duckies would just pop right off so ran off one day when they saw a big ass elephant coming over the Alps.
Speaker 1:So elephants were also particularly useful against Calvary, since horses were terrified by their size, smell and sound. Now, as a Ulysses S Grant horse girl, I can tell you that horses are terrified of like plastic bags that blow by. So they did not do too well against these elephants that blow by. So they did not do too well against these elephants. But now this might surprise you, but there are a lot of problems too with having elephants in your army, other than the fact that elephants are huge and they eat a ton and they cost a lot of money. Elephants have a tendency to panic when they are injured, and what would happen is if these war elephants were injured during battle, they would often turn around and stomp on their own troops. Now, apparently this happened quite often, so much so that the Romans actually referred to elephants as the common enemy.
Speaker 2:The enemy of my enemy is an elephant.
Speaker 1:So Carthage began training elephant troops in the first decades of the third century BCE. By the time the first Punic War began in 264 BCE, they had accumulated quite the number of trained elephants. Now I should also mention that these elephants most likely belonged to a now extinct subspecies of African forest elephant. They were quite a bit smaller than african forest elephants. They were only about eight feet tall and weighed around three tons, which still is that's huge to me, but it's like a travel size elephant, I guess it's a.
Speaker 1:It's like a reasonable size for an elephant right, and they were also highly trainable. Now, carthage used elephants a lot during the First Punic War and the results were they were mixed. During the Battle of Agrigentum in 262 BCE, the Romans killed or injured 50 to 60 elephants, but during the Battle of Bagdras River, approximately 100 elephants devastated the front ranks of the Roman Legion and trampled many other Roman soldiers. So you know it's a mixed bag when you work with war elephants. I'm sorry, cindy, I can think.
Speaker 2:Mama tell me how Daddy Dad got trampled by an elephant.
Speaker 1:Like a hundred elephants, that's so many elephants.
Speaker 2:Like a hundred elephants. That's so many elephants.
Speaker 1:Like a hundred elephants. It's a lot of elephants. So, yeah, it's also worth noting that Hannibal's own father, Hamilcar Barca, was very successful at using elephants to conquer territory in Spain. Hannibal later used the same elephant herd in Spain to conquer a coalition of tribes in 220 BCE. My point being, Katie, that using elephants to attack Rome wasn't just a random idea.
Speaker 1:Hannibal had one day. Elephants had been used for years and Hannibal had seen firsthand just how effective elephants could be when they were used against troops who had never seen them before. So Hannibal had this plan. He's like let's go to Italy through the Alps with men and horses and elephants. I feel like I should also add that he could not move his forces by sea as he did not have enough allied ports to successfully go that route. So it's not like he had a lot of choices. Going over the Alps with horses and elephants was like basically his only choice. So even though that was his only choice, it still wasn't a very easy plan. Katie, have you ever gone hiking in the snow? Yes, it's awful, Right. Yes, Now try hiking in the snow with 70,000 men, 20,000 horses and 37 elephants.
Speaker 2:I would still pick it over going hiking in the winter with two small children any day of the week. Much more manageable.
Speaker 1:But this was the brilliance of Hannibal's plan. No one figured he would do this. Because it's so insane, right, yes, it's insane, like I wouldn't do this. Well, you said you might do that over going hiking with children, but still like, really who's going to do this? You said you might do that over going to the children, but still like, really, who's going to do this? This was a plan that was so dangerous that it easily could have become one of history's greatest military disasters, but nonetheless, hannibal marched his troops to the Alps in October of 218 BCE. They were approaching winter, so the weather was cold and it was harsh. And I haven't been to phoenicia I know it doesn't exist anymore, but my guess is that they're not really dressed appropriately for the cold weather. I guess they did put like spikes on the bottom of their sandals to help them on the ice, but they're still wearing sandals.
Speaker 2:If it makes you feel better, they would wear. In general, the Romans would wear socks with sandals or boots.
Speaker 1:And why do people judge me when I do that?
Speaker 2:Because you're not a second century infantryman. That's why I see, if you did the whole outfit, then they'd be like, oh, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Oh, I see what she's doing here. If I'm wearing Birkenstocks, does that also make a difference?
Speaker 2:You know, I think I feel like it depends on the sock, like if it's a fun sock, you can get away with it, more than if it's just like your typical white tube sock like if it's a toe sock with the individual toes I think you might get away with that.
Speaker 1:I saw the face you made when I said toe socks though katie it was, I feel like you're not a fan. I'm not not a fan of the toe socks.
Speaker 2:I think it's because I think about trying to wedge my toes into those socks and it's just like sensory hell for me, yeah. I can't do it.
Speaker 1:So Hannibal's marching his troops through the Alps, they're surrounded by these precipices. And so I mean literally we don't have pictures, we have paintings and things. And so I mean literally we don't have pictures, we have paintings and things, but like I mean according to accounts, you know, any mistakes, and movement meant animals going off the sides with their loads. And this happened like people, like animals went off the sides with their loads they were carrying. They were also attacked on the way by some tribes. They always managed to fight them off, um, but still they had to constantly deal with that. They also. They also did deter other attacks from other tribes just with the presence of their elephants. So, like some, some tribes attacked them and some tribes were like we don't know what those things are, we're not going near them so again, mixed bag of results.
Speaker 1:Hannibal also allegedly came up with a way to cut through all of the snow and ice using wine and fire.
Speaker 2:But I caution you, this may be a myth I love it, though that's how I saw solve all of my personal problems. Wine and fire one or the other Wine and fire.
Speaker 1:So, regardless, they made it to the top of the pass in only nine days. Which props to them. That is so impressive. The men and the animals were exhausted, so Hannibal encouraged them by saying this is it you guys? It's all downhill from here, no more hills to climb. But remember what I said, katie, about hiking in the snow. Have you ever hiked downhill in the snow? Much worse, it's like a thousand times worse. Men and animals were slipping and sliding everywhere. We're talking men, horses, elephants slipping and sliding and crashing into each other. On top of that, they were all freezing and starving and exhausted. I don't know the numbers. A lot of men and horses died. It's unclear how many elephants died, but it sounds like at least 30 elephants actually survived.
Speaker 1:Uh, which is good, for that's much better than I would have yeah, but I'm also thinking, okay, elephant, horse, man, right, like if they're all sliding, like chances are, it's like a boulder coming down, yeah, yeah, I feel like the boulder stands a better chance of surviving. I don't know.
Speaker 2:True, when you frame it that way. Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:So not only did Hannibal manage to march his army across the Alps, they made the journey in just 16 days. That's really impressive. So shortly after descending into Northern Italy, they fought their first major battle with the Roman army at Trebia. Here Hannibal used his elephants in a successful charge alongside the cavalry against the Roman wings. But unfortunately, this was the last hurrah for Hannibal's elephants. All but one eventually died from the snow and cold of winter in northern Italy. Eventually died from the snow and cold of winter in northern Italy. The one elephant who survived was nicknamed the Syrian, which is a very specific name why?
Speaker 2:Why are they called the?
Speaker 1:Syrian. I mean, I don't know if it was like a compliment, like for being strong and being the only survivor, or if it was like an insult. It might have been an inside joke.
Speaker 2:Those Carthaginian inside jokes.
Speaker 1:You had to be there, cindy, you had to be there. You had to be there. But anyway, the Syrian became Hannibal's personal elephant mount. So ultimately, hannibal was right. Crossing the Alps was the quickest way to get into Italy and using elephants wasn't a terrible idea. He probably would have continued to use his elephants if they hadn't, you know, all died. So I'm not going to end the story there, katie, I couldn't possibly end the story there. I got to tell you how it ends.
Speaker 1:So the Romans immediately fortify Rome. Hannibal couldn't directly attack Rome anymore, so he tried to ask leaders in Carthage for help, but they were all incompetent and useless and didn't do anything to help him. So Hannibal had to attack Rome another way. Do you know how he attacked the Romans another way? Like a different animal, or like coming around, used the minds of the Roman people. He basically talked shit about Rome to everyone in communities surrounding Rome, and this was the first time in recorded history where somebody used psychological warfare. This caused a lot of civil unrest and caused Hannibal to gain a strong army. So basically he went around and he was like hey, did you hear about Rome? Like let me tell you all the things that are bad about Rome and people were like oh yeah, we'd love to join your military, so he gains this really strong army. And this completely terrified the Romans again, as this kind of emotional manipulation had never been used against them. So on August 2nd 216 BCE, the Romans decided to engage Hannibal at Cannae.
Speaker 2:Cannae.
Speaker 1:Cannae. Oh, okay, let me do that again the proper way. On August 2nd 216 BCE, the Romans decided to engage Hannibal at Cannae with approximately 86,000 Roman and allied troops. Yet Hannibal basically surrounded the Romans with his huge army and he slaughtered them. Hannibal wiped out 80% of the Roman army that day. The Battle of Cannae is regarded as one of the worst defeats in Roman history and one of the most impressive tactical defeats in military history. So despite this victory, the Second Punic War continued for years and without support from Carthage, hannibal was never able to mount a direct attack on Rome. He was forced to surrender in 202 BCE.
Speaker 1:Hannibal returned home, but he kept pretty busy. He ran for office in Carthage and then he eventually oversaw the navy in Greece and later Bithynia, which is present-day Turkey. His last military stroke of genius was in 184 BCE, when Bithynia found itself at war with Pergamon in Greece. Hannibal's fleet was really badly outnumbered by the Pergamonians, I guess. But given his love for unconventional tactics, hannibal came up with a really badass plan. Do you know what he did, katie? What, tell me? He ordered his ships to be loaded with clay pots full of venomous snakes. He then had those clay pots catapulted into the Pergamonian ships. The snakes not only bit sailors, but they caused, I think some people were bit. I think mostly it just caused a lot of panic. It just caused a lot of panic and confusion among the ranks, which allowed the Bithynian fleet To directly target the ship Carrying the leader of Pergamon. And we don't know, there's no like record of how it ended up. But, as usual, hannibal left a lasting impression and, in case you're wondering, he died in a Turkish village at age 65.
Speaker 2:Good for him Couldn't even pull retirement, though I know I know.
Speaker 1:I know, I know he just hung in a little bit longer, but yeah, so that's crazy.
Speaker 2:Can I tell? Let me ask you this Do you know what the counter to elephants is Like, what the Romans would do? One of the strategies to counter an elephant?
Speaker 1:Oh, like an actual, like an actual strategy to counter elephants. Peanuts, that's a good guess. No, no, what would they?
Speaker 2:do so. You take a pig. I did not. I already did not see this coming.
Speaker 1:You take a pig I did not, I already did not see this coming. You take a pig, you grease it up. No, no, you set it on fire.
Speaker 2:No, you are making this up you set it towards the elephants and make them all panic and run and scream yes, no, that's literally what they do.
Speaker 1:Yes, cindy, they actually had a strategy. They had a specific strategy. They're like this is our protocol, this is what we do. If you see an elephant coming, you're going to grab a pig, you're going to grease it up, light it on fire.
Speaker 2:They're incendiary war pigs, cindy, no, get out, it's true.
Speaker 1:It's true, oh my god, you fight. You know we say you fight fire with fire. No, you fight elephants with incendiary war pigs. Yes, get out. Isn't that fantastic, oh my God. So I have to say, you know, I picked this story because it was just, I mean, it was just one of thousands of crazy stories about things in history, but I had no idea, like I. Okay, when you guys go to the polls tomorrow or any day, whenever you read the news and you're just like like this is, this is, these are crazy times we live in. When's the last time somebody catapulted a pig on fire at you, or a jar of snakes or a jar of snakes, because your ship was in the way, like come on.
Speaker 2:I mean Cindy. I feel like if a candidate said you know what we're gonna do, we're gonna catapult a jar of snakes at all of our problems, I'd be like you know what. You have my vote. People would be like it's a metaphor. Katie and I are like you know what you have my vote people will be like it's a metaphor.
Speaker 1:Kate and I are like no, that's real crazy times. What a great time to be alive.
Speaker 2:Thank you.