Not Another History Podcast
We are Cindy and Katie, and every two weeks we bring you a random theme and offer several of our favorite historical events loosely based on that theme. We are basically just living out our old lady fantasies of rocking on the front porch together, drinking, and gossiping about people who are already dead. Music: The Life of a Divorced Bumblebee by Josef Bel Habib (www.epidemicsound.com). Design: canva.com
Not Another History Podcast
Murdery of the Century 10th vs 16th
It's our annual Murder of the Century showdown! The end of 2024 delivers us the 10th Century vs 16th Century. Katie shares the story of Nikephoros II Phokas and Cindy shares the story of Peter Stubbe.
Hi Katie, Hi Cindy, Happy end of 2024.
Speaker 2:Oh, I can't believe it's wrapping up. It's gone by so quickly, but I'm also glad to see it go.
Speaker 1:I think we've only done maybe four episodes this year. So when you count the number of days in a year by how many podcasts you've done, it really has flown by. I would like the record to show that I am wearing a present from Katie oh hooray, and I won't read it out loud, but it may or may not have the name of the Memorial Park where Katie and I did our archaeological work in high school and basically like forged our friendship when our shared love of all things, history and our desire to literally uncover the past, if you will.
Speaker 1:I feel like the only other people to really I mean truly like solidify their relationships over archaeology like Indiana Jones Maybe not solidify relationships, I don't know Fight Nazis, Fight Nazis, Indiana Jones.
Speaker 2:We've had a shocking lack of Nazi fighting in our our friendship. Cindy, that's true. I'm a little disappointed, Not gonna lie.
Speaker 1:I think it's a good thing. I would agree. I would agree, yeah, and I also have another gift from Katie my mug From boss, straight out of Boston, massachusetts. It says I like my coffee black and my tea in the harbor.
Speaker 2:Aww, it's like a perfect sentiment. It's how I live my life.
Speaker 1:But the joke's on everybody else, because I'm drinking a latte out of this, which I'm pretty sure that's Italian. Joke's on you, you, sons of the revolution, sons of liberty, sons of liberty.
Speaker 2:speaking of which? Speaking of the opportunity, yes, I had the opportunity to go finally go to the paul revere house over winter break. How was it? Revere house over winter break? How was it so the guy who runs like the booth to get in he's an octogenarian? I'm pretty sure he was at the battle of Lexington and Concord, concord himself. Oh, it costs like $6 to get in as an adult.
Speaker 1:Is that reasonable? I feel like that, I feel like it's a bargain.
Speaker 2:That is a that's a steal, that is an absolute bargain. I did make the mistake of going with my two small children and let me just like. They have zero, and I get it. They're little, they have zero appreciation for history, but it's just like. Guys, can we just spend more than five seconds in each room? I want to read. I'm a read the placards kind of person and they're just like this is boring, but read the placards kind of person and they're just like this is boring.
Speaker 2:But to be fair, they felt that way about all the other museums we took them to, including the art museum. We're like look, it's a van gogh, it's a dead guy. They're like where the snacks. So, but I was very pleased to see that they did have some like original furniture that belonged to, uh, like the reveres themselves. A lot of stuff was either like from the time period but didn't belong to them, but there were some things that was like a chest of drawers and like a sewing table, some chairs. It was really interesting, and they all did have some like silver work they had done. But I mean we should do an episode about Paul Revere himself because, like in depth.
Speaker 1:Just because he Not like the episode I already did. No, no, no, no, no, no because he, because never mind, no, no, and it was a that was way back in the beginning, when we were doing like this week in history, and I think I did a very brief little thing about paul revere's ride but he did.
Speaker 2:You know how many. I mean, I'm sure you knew this in your research. But how many jobs he had, was he like a jack of all trades? Pretty much he was like hey, let's do some silver smith thing. Oh, let's do some dentistry. Oh, let's do some, uh, like ship building. Let's do some ship building, let's do this, let's do that, let's do some printmaking on the side. Let's ride a horse in the night, let's ride a horse and warn people about the British coming.
Speaker 2:Exactly, he had a lot of side gigs. He was a little crypto.
Speaker 1:But see, here's the thing, okay, we both have daughters, yes. But see, here's the thing, okay, we both have daughters, yes. If your daughter now in the 21st century brought home a guy and you were like so tell us, like paul, tell us about yourself, what do you do? And this guy was like oh, I do a little silversmithing over here, I do a little print making over here, I do a little shipbuilding over here, would you be concerned?
Speaker 2:or would you be like oh, he is a, he's a good old paul revere I think I'd be a little concerned because it's like, okay, how are you gonna, where you're gonna get your insurance from dude, how are you gonna build that uh, 401k I mean. But but I mean, if he, he was all self-employed, I guess that's a different conversation. An entrepreneur, an entrepreneur, if you will, real Elon Musk of silversmithry.
Speaker 1:Well, good, katie, I'm glad you enjoyed your winter break.
Speaker 2:I did, I did. And now I'm just ready for my children to go home, I mean go back to school. Whoa, that was a Freudian slip.
Speaker 1:Whoa Children, we love you. We just love you from a distance. The concept of boarding school just sounds better and better every year.
Speaker 2:I was literally having a conversation with my daughter about how this is, years from now, years and years when I'm gone, she can go back and listen to this and listen to her mother's docent voice speaking to her. Now it's going to be like, wow, my mom won't just ship me off to boarding school when I'm in second grade.
Speaker 1:Jesus, go back home, go back to boarding school.
Speaker 2:Just kidding, love you.
Speaker 1:We're just joking, but I think we're all. It's the end of winter break. Yes, mom's ready. Mom's ready to let's talk about some murder.
Speaker 2:So that I don't commit one.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's much healthier to talk about murder in history rather than just committing yourself. So yeah, this is our annual murder of a century showdown where we pit two murders from two different centuries against each other and see which one wins and we're getting it in like right under the wire too.
Speaker 1:You're calling so proud I'm like sweating right now. I'm like, am I gonna be able to to edit this in time? But we'll get it done. We will get it done and we will get a poll up on our instagram and anybody listen anybody out there listening? Uh, you are welcome to take in the poll and determine which, which century, wins our showdown.
Speaker 2:All right, Cindy.
Speaker 1:So what century did you go with?
Speaker 2:The 10th century CE.
Speaker 1:What that's so far back there. I know it's so ancient, it's so ancient, I love it. So I chose the 16th century, so I say earliest 16th century. So I say early a century goes first.
Speaker 2:Age and treachery before youth and beauty. So, cindy, let's dive into everyone's favorite time period 10th century Byzantium.
Speaker 1:That's my favorite.
Speaker 2:Isn't it everybody? So, and stop me if you've already heard this before, cindy.
Speaker 1:Stop me if Cindy's already done a podcast episode on it and I just had a brain aneurysm and forgot.
Speaker 2:So does the name Nikephoros II Phocas ring any bells? Absolutely not. You're not well versed in all the Byzantine emperors of the Eastern Roman Empire.
Speaker 1:I thought I knew all of them, but gosh, this one just slipped right past me.
Speaker 2:Slipped the mind, I know, I know he was not your average emperor. In fact, he was anything but average. He was born to be a military superstar. So Nikephoros, whose name literally means bringer of victory, I mean, can you pick a more fitting name for future military? You know, general and military superstar.
Speaker 2:It was meant to be. It was meant to be military superstar. It was meant to be. It was meant to be so. He was born in 912 ce into a family known for excellence on the battlefield. His father, brother and grandfather all served as commanders in the army. Uh, but it wasn't as if he just relied solely on his family's name to bolster his success. He, in his own right, was an effective leader, so much so that, in 954 CE, he actually replaced his own father as leader of the Eastern Byzantine Army.
Speaker 1:How did that go over?
Speaker 2:I have a feeling it was not great, but his dad had suffered a couple of major military losses and so it was like OK, you know this, you're being replaced, but we're going to soften the blow. It's your son, so it's not too bad. It's, you know, keeping the power in the family kind of a thing, but I'm sure his dad was a little not too pleased about it.
Speaker 2:He was also noted for his brutal war tactics. So when he went to war he didn't just beat his enemies, he crushed them. He was particularly skilled at besieging cities. And stop me, if you are already well versed in, you know the laws and rules of besieging?
Speaker 1:No, I did not. I did not study that in college, Katie. I'm afraid I minored in something else. Reading instruction how to teach children how to learn? Yeah, Lame.
Speaker 2:You missed a wonderful class and I have to. I did do like a little bit, go a little bit down a rabbit hole in terms of siege warfare and like the rules surrounding it. And did you know that there are actually are international rules of warfare like governing siege tactics today? So like it's legal nowadays? Yes, you can legally besiege cities like that's okay. The international war crimes committee has no beef with you If you do that. They only have to take issue. If you like, slaughter civilians, like that's like, and too many civilians, that's not okay. If you do that, they only take issue. If you slaughter civilians and too many civilians, that's not okay. But if you keep the murder to a minimum, that's fine. Just go ahead, besiege, do what you gotta do. It's part of warfare.
Speaker 1:Note taken.
Speaker 2:No, putting up my list for when I need to take over the world, anyway. So he was particularly skilled at besieging cities and this type of these types of tactics were absolutely crucial to his success in retaking Crete in six excuse me, retaking Crete in 961. So, starting in the late 1820s, the island of Crete which you know, when you think of Crete you think Greek island it was actually taken over by exiles from Muslim Spain and was being used as a pirate stronghold and also used as like, as a jumping off point for the Saracens to be able to raid towns and cities all along the Aegean, for Nikephoros to be able to do this, because the Byzantines had tried to retake the island in 842, 866, 911, and 949. But all of those had ended tragically. In one case it was because a major commander was murdered the night before they were supposed to set out and they're like maybe we shouldn't do this. And then there were two other campaigns. It was just an absolute slaughter for the Greeks.
Speaker 1:Is there a reason why they wanted this place so badly, or just purely because they were just trying to get as much land as possible?
Speaker 2:Well, it's like a major Crete is like smack dab in the middle of the Aegean Sea and it's easy to get to all the other like Greek islands from it and you kind of control the waterways oh.
Speaker 1:I see.
Speaker 2:And it was like part of the Byzantine you know empire, but it was taken from them, so they wanted it back as well. So it's a point of pride.
Speaker 1:And this is why I'm not. I wasn't built made for military things Because I'm like after the third or fourth time, do we really need it? You guys Do? After the third or fourth time, do we really need it, you guys Do? We really Can't? We just be happy with what we have?
Speaker 2:Well, nikephoros would disagree with you, cindy. He's like yes, we absolutely agree. Exactly, that's why he's named for valor and I'm Cindy. So Emperor Romanos II had tapped Nikephoros to get the job done because, again, he was renowned for his military, his bravery, for his tactics.
Speaker 2:Um, and though initially he thought he was going to be able to take the island quickly and by force, it soon became very clear that he's going to need late need to lay siege of the city of chandex, and if he wanted to take over the entire island, the siege itself lasted about six months. So, like the fall of 960 into 961, like the springtime, and during that time he used a variety of different means to try and take the island. So this would include, you know, physical means, so they would try to, like dig tunnels underneath the city walls to try and get them to collapse. Um, you've got different types of siege weapons, like battering rams or or different, um, different types of, uh like, machines that would try and pull the walls down. Or you would also try psychological means, so he would do things like he would capture saracens, behead them, put their heads on pikes, wait, did you consider that?
Speaker 1:part of the psychological warfare, or just like or just like the warfare. I think there's more to that than that's not just like psychological warfare, it's like brutal warfare.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And it's to say like this is what's going to happen to you if you don't give up pretty soon. And he would also catapult heads over the wall too. So it's like, hey, you in the back, you probably can't see what we're doing. Let me bring you the show, let me show you what's going on. Eventually, they were able to pull down the walls.
Speaker 2:So these tactics, in addition to his conquests in parts of Syria, ended up earning him the nickname the Pale Death of the Saracens, which is a pretty cool nickname. That is a good one, if I had to pick one myself. So his reputation made him a household name, if by household in the Byzantine Empire you mean, you know, a giant empire stretching from Italy to the Middle East. So, and as tough as a guy that he was and how good of a military leader that he was when it comes to, like, figuring out internal politics and statements ship, he wasn't always the best, and we're going to see that this kind of gets him into a little bit of trouble in the future.
Speaker 2:So in 963, the emperor Romanus II dies at the age of 24, leaving a power vacuum. This is a little bit of an aside. There are actually two prevailing theories on what was the cause of the death of the emperor. On one side you have those who believed his wife, theophano, poisoned her husband. Then you have another group that believes that the excesses of royal life got to him, and by excesses I mean hunting all day, drinking all night and cavorting with young handmaidens.
Speaker 1:In between, I have not researched this guy at all, I have not researched this culture at all, but I'm guessing. The truth is always somewhere in the middle. My guess is the excesses of his royal life led to his wife finally having enough and poisoning him, that's what I vote for.
Speaker 2:I appreciate your theory, but in just a moment you'll see that perhaps that first theory is not going to hold a lot of water, but I do appreciate your enthusiasm. I try To say that Theophanano was in a difficult position at this point in time. It's an understatement. She was the daughter of a poor tavern keeper from Laconia and she was renowned for her beauty. Romanus the second married her in a nine 56, against the advice and wishes of his father, constantine the seventh, whom Theofano was also accused of poisoning when he died. And she didn't. She didn't, it's just her haters, just her haters.
Speaker 2:So at the time of Romanos II's death, the Afano had actually just given birth to their fourth child, only 48 hours prior. So think back to when you had your baby Cindy. 48 hours afterwards, were you poisoning anybody or in a position to poison anybody?
Speaker 1:No, but if I had people to poison for me. True, I could. I could think about a couple of people I would have. I would have, uh, poisoned by proxy, but no, no, not me personally. I was really busy otherwise.
Speaker 2:So you need to keep in mind that this time, hereditary succession was not law. So just because he has at this point he has two sons, but they're very, very young, they're like three and five at the time Just because they are alive and exist doesn't mean that they are necessarily going to be able to inherit the emperorship, doesn't mean that they are necessarily going to be able to inherit the emperorship. So without the backing of a powerful leader, particularly a military leader, theophano and her children would likely be exiled or even worse. So Theophano was able to reach an agreement with Nikephoros If you protect me and my children, you can take the emperorship for your own and I will legitimize you by marrying you. So Nikephoros agreed and on August 16th 963, he was crowned emperor and he married Theophano soon after.
Speaker 2:So one important thing to keep in mind is that off the battlefield, nikephoros was not nearly as successful when it came to matters of the heart. When he was very young, he married a woman named Stefano, who unfortunately died before Nikephoros made much of a name for himself. So most of what we have like information about her is largely speculative. We don't know what she looked like. We don't know what her family was like. There's very little in the historic record, but what we do know is that she had an immense impact on Nikephoros, so much so that, after his death, he swore an oath of chastity to his dead wife, whoa. Yes, I'm impressed. Yes, by all historic accounts. It may appear that this story is true, as Theophano and Nikephoros never had any children, and Theophano's eye reportedly started to wander soon after they married. Her gaze eventually fell on and I'm going to butcher this because my Greek is terrible, john, i's semic.
Speaker 1:You can do it, you can do it. Katie, you can do it.
Speaker 2:I don't even know Tima Psyches that sounds right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, tima Psyches, tima Psyches, we're going to say it.
Speaker 2:Tima Psyches All right. Her gaze eventually fell on John I. Tima Psyches, one of Nikephoros' top generals and his nephew and, according to some contemporary sources quote, a total hottie. He was a short king but described as extremely good looking, with a red beard and hair and blue eyes. So think of like a Greek fun size, sam Heughan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, okay, sure, okay sure.
Speaker 2:So John was, in his own right, a powerful, skilled military leader who was extremely popular with his troops. He would personally rally them during a fight and turning the tide of a seemingly lost battle. So soon after his ascension to the throne, matters on the political front also turned sour for Nikephoros. The thing about being a military hero in Byzantium is that it doesn't automatically translate to being a good emperor. He was a warrior, but not necessarily a ruler, so he put out very high taxes to try and pay for all these wars that he was fighting on behalf of the Byzantine Empire. He was spending a lot on the military. He was more focused on what was going on externally than what was happening with the local population, and they didn't feel like he had his best. They didn't feel like he had their best interests at heart. He was also getting into dust-ups with the church on religious grounds, such as wanting any soldier who dies in battle against the Saracens to be considered a martyr. They were not having that at all.
Speaker 2:There was also a little bit of an issue when he first became emperor and was going to marry Theophano. There was a rumor going around that he was godfather to one of her children, and at that time it was considered like spiritual incest if you married your child's um like godparent, interesting so. But they had to like squash those rumors and because he had been married before he couldn't do certain things in the it was. It was a mess, but it all got worked out and they got married. And here here we are, given Nikephoros' struggles, and at that time the growing influence and popularity of John, nikephoros decides to banish his nephew from Constantinople and from military service altogether. So this was a bridge too far for Theophano, for John and for a number of the of the generals who were loyal to john. So they conspired to do the unthinkable murder the emperor and put john on the throne.
Speaker 2:so on december 11th 969, they thought that they had finally found their moment. But their plan was not without hiccups. So according to a contemporary historian from the time called Leo the Deacon, a priest alerted the emperor to the fact that there were armed men hiding out in his wife's quarters, but a search of the empress's rooms turned up nothing. Nikephoros was satisfied with the results and decided to bunk down for a long winter's nap, but not before Theophano casually mentioned that she needed to go check on some guests, but that the emperor should leave his bedroom door open and unlocked, and she would come back and lock things up when she was all done. So Nikephoros, blissfully unaware that his nephew and co-conspirators had snuck into the palace, agreed. Once they were inside the palace, john and his men entered an imperial bedchamber and threw back the bedclothes to reveal nothing. They had accidentally wandered into the wrong bedchamber. Oh, no, no, no, I'll show you to the right bedchamber. And he led them to where the emperor actually was sleeping.
Speaker 1:Do we think the servant was in on this, or do you think the servant was just a total idiot?
Speaker 2:No, I think the servant was in on it.
Speaker 1:I think that she was working with the Emperor as well, Otherwise that guy lost his job for sure.
Speaker 2:So once they arrived at the correct Imperial bedchamber, they struck the Emperor in the head with a sword drawing blood. John had his men hold his uncle down and did what any disgruntled usurper would do in a situation like this he started monologuing. So according to Leo the Deacon, John aired his grievances to Nikephoros thus and I'm going to be reading word for word what apparently Leo the Deacon says Can you help us paint this picture just a little bit more?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the assassins who almost threw themselves to their death because they made a mistake at their job. They're holding him down, yeah, and they're about to kill, like they're going to go in for the kill. But no, their ringleader, their boss, is like let me first have a few words. Exactly, let's put ourselves in the shoes of those assassins for a minute. What are you thinking? Are you like, yeah, that we expected this. This is part of the job. Are you just thinking, oh my god, dude, like, let us just get this over and done with and go home.
Speaker 2:that's what I would be thinking like come on, where's the imperial guard? They're gonna be here in a minute, let's get going. Yes, but no, he needs to stop. He needs to air his grievances, he needs to let him know what's wrong, why I'm doing this to you.
Speaker 2:Okay, tell me, you most ungrateful and malicious tyrant. Wasn't it through me that you attained the Roman rule and received such power? Why then did you disregard such a good turn and, driven by envy and evil frenzy, did not hesitate to remove me, your benefactor, from the command of the troops? Instead, you dismissed me to waste my time in the countryside with peasants, like some alien, without any rights, even though I am more brave and vigorous than you. Without any rights, even though I am more brave and vigorous than you, the armies of the enemy fear me and there is no one who can save you from my hands. Speak then, if you have any grounds of defense remaining against these charges, and all Nikephoros could do was, over and over, say oh, mother of God, help me. Oh, mother of God, help me. I'm going to blame that on the head injury. Have you ever?
Speaker 1:had like a negative encounter with somebody. And then you're like the next day you're like taking a shower and like all you're doing is think, like what you should have said. Right, you're probably like I should have said this and I should have said this. So, on the one hand, I give it to John for taking a moment to just get it all out there so he doesn't have any of that regret Like, oh, I should have said this to him or I should have said this.
Speaker 1:But here's also I guess we've been podcasting long enough, katie, and researching long enough that I don't 100% believe in this historical record. And that, did he actually say these things? No, are we picturing there's somebody next to him like scribbling down, like uh-huh, no, keep going, I got it, I got it all. No, I feel like maybe he said something really stupid, that like I got you or something, and the next day he was like oh, I really regret, I really wish I had said more. This is what I wish I had said. He grabbed his scribes and write this down. This is what I said and publish that for the historical record.
Speaker 2:I think that's totally, that's 100% believable. Cindy, I think that might be what actually happened. He like, and then said something stupid, and then maybe these guys were like razzing on him a little bit and he's like no, no, no, no, we're gonna set the record straight. This is what it's gonna be. I think that's. I think you're 100 right there. So, yeah, like I said, all nico forrest could do was just like beg god for help. And john grabbed nico forrest by the beard and he pulled, pull his head up, allowing his lackeys to like smash his jaw, and according to the record, it was just like they just beat the crap out of him. Then john kicked him in the chest and struck nico forrest through the skull with his sword, egging on others to do the same. So nico forrest was finally felled by the strike of a hooked hammer that went out into his back and popped out his chest.
Speaker 2:So, yes, yeah. So john immediately assumed the throne and nico forrest's bodyguards attempted to save him because they didn't know if he was dead or not. So they it sounds like they kind of rushed in to help, but it was too late. And to ensure that the bodyguards didn't try any funny business, john showed off the decapitated head of nico forrest through a window, so that the bodyguards didn't try any funny business. John showed off the decapitated head of Nikephoros through a window, so that the bodyguards were certain that the emperor was dead and wouldn't try, like I said, any kind of funny business and try and kill him and take it for themselves. The Romans had a delightful history of like the Praetorian guard, which was essentially the emperor's bodyguards, of like overthrowing the emperor and installing someone that they got behind, or murdering them himself themselves so this is like keeping with roman tradition, if you will.
Speaker 2:He wanted to make sure that they were on his side before he kind of let them in, was like, okay, it's a done deal. Everybody sees, I killed him, I'm the emperor, no, tixie back sees, you can't pull a fast one on me. And so he I john did become emperor, and he was emperor until 976 himself, um, but to be fair, like he was never the way in which he assumed power, there was always kind of like a dark mark on his emperorship. But so so, in the end, nikephoros II Phokas. His death serves as a perfect example of how even the most powerful rulers are vulnerable to the ultimate betrayal. He was a military genius, a conqueror, a man who fought to defend his empire, and yet, in the end, it was his own wife and a trusted general who took him down. So let his story be a powerful message during this time of holiday get-togethers and quality family time Trust no one.
Speaker 1:You know, it's funny. I actually was going to say there's a comforting message in this story as well. What message in this story as well? What in that? It's just a nice reminder that we can't all be good at everything and that it's okay. You can be really good at one thing and it's okay if you're not good at the other things. Maybe, don't you know, marry somebody with a really complicated history and you know have your nephew, like get really upset and maybe don't like tax the heck out of everybody.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's that lesson as well. But yeah, I agree, trust no one and it's okay if you can't do it all, just be you and just do what you do really well.
Speaker 2:Don't try to girlboss too hard, Like you said. Just be happy with being the commander of the Eastern Army of the Byzantium and just leave it at that. He could have retired and had a nice little life.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm sorry that happened to him. Was John popular? Do we know? Well, I'm sorry that happened to him. It's was John popular. Do we know? Were people pleased?
Speaker 2:when he I didn't dig too much into his reign. I just know that how he came to power was not people were not super jazzed about it, to say the least, and he only. He ended up only reigning for like six years.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting to think about how people back then must have felt compared to how we feel now. We have people who campaign all summer for a presidential election and people get mad. They say it was enough. Time. Like this is. You know, people need years to prepare for a presidential, presidential election and things meanwhile. One day you wake up and this one person is the ruler of you, and then the next minute his head is in a window and so his nephew is the ruler and you just kind of have to go with the flow exactly.
Speaker 1:You're like oh okay, I guess this is happening now, I suppose I guess john is now telling me how many taxes, how much taxes to pay.
Speaker 2:So I guess we just go with it. But you're right, that must be so bizarre. For ancient people that's like a second I just got used to this guy. What do you mean? We got somebody new.
Speaker 1:I like that old guy, I loved him. Oh well, I guess it's this new guy now.
Speaker 2:Now, Cindy, do you think it could have all been avoided if he hadn't kept his vow to his wife to be celibate?
Speaker 1:No, I think there were a few other things at play. I think perhaps not being a really great leader kind of set him up for it For somebody at some point to come along and see his weaknesses and try to take him down. But to be fair, did she not go into that relationship knowing she knew what she was getting herself into? She knew what she was. I feel like all the blame can't be placed on him.
Speaker 2:Takes two to tango Cindy, or in this case, not.
Speaker 1:Okay, first, I should say my murder is a 16th century murder. What's funny, though, is that your stories and my stories always overlap in some weird way, and the overlap here is remember when you said we joked that I didn't study besiegery in college. Yes, because I was too busy taking classes on the history of witchcraft and wizardry, which were totally real classes that I took, uh, for extra credit. Wait, wait. Could you have taken a class on besiegery? Uh, I don't recall seeing that in the course catalog, but could you and I create a course and teach a course on besiegery?
Speaker 2:I would love that there's so many laws and so many rules you have to follow. It's crazy, like traditionally, traditionally. But the long story short is if you can not get besieged, don't get besieged. If you do, just give up because otherwise they're going to kill everybody.
Speaker 1:Here's my question, though you and I know that if we taught a class like that, it would be done sarcastically, or something like that. Do you think we could get imprisoned? Do you think somebody without a sense of humor would seek to have us imprisoned?
Speaker 2:No, no. Could we get thrown in internet jail? Maybe would he get canceled? No, because it's it I. I think we would be respectful of the material but keep it like. I feel like the best educators are able to instill like a little bit of humor, but in a respectful way, and make things exciting, and I think we would do that Same thing with witchcraft. I feel like any topic that we would teach, it would come from a respectful way, but a way to make it interesting without being like do you feel like we've made things too scintillating?
Speaker 1:Is there such thing as too scintillating Katie?
Speaker 2:I don't know if the wave of history is changing or whatnot, but sometimes I've seen discussions on the interwebs and everything about how any and I can see, especially with contemporary murder, that sometimes people sensationalize it, especially if the murder victims and their families are still alive. The murder victims are not alive, the families. But I've heard arguments like you shouldn't do that with anyone in time ever.
Speaker 1:No, I disagree with that because I think my story will show, and I think many other stories that we have done over the years, katie, just for this podcast alone show that people throughout history loved true crime. I think it's very naive that some people think that women, especially their interest in true crime, is like this new phenomenon. It's not. Oh yeah, 100% into your crime is like this new phenomenon. It's not, oh yeah, 100. I guarantee you, katie, back in 967 or whatever you said, you know, people in that that community were like oh my, the next one, oh my god. Did you see whose head was in the window? Get out. That was his nephew who did that. Oh my God, he's like a fun-sized Sam Heughan. This is going to be. He's hot. He killed somebody, but he's hot. He's short, but he's hot. What are you Ladies? What are we thinking? No, you're right, you're right, cindy, you're right.
Speaker 2:No, you're right. You're right, cindy.
Speaker 1:You're right. So on that note. So I have this weird personal connection to my story. So I started to research my murder story and as I was researching I was like this sounds really familiar. And then I realized I wrote about this for my final paper in my history of witchcraft and wizardry class 20 years ago.
Speaker 2:For a second, I thought you were going to say this is a story my grandmother told me, or, like my great grandmother this is a story about my grandma.
Speaker 1:No, it's not. It's not about my grandma. My grandma did not live back in the 16th century, no, but I. But so here's the thing is I researched this topic and I looked at my old research paper, which means I can cite my own work for this topic you're living.
Speaker 2:You're living every historian's dream, to cite themselves.
Speaker 1:This is my fantasy, this is my moment in the sun.
Speaker 2:Katie, please tell me that in your write-up you used appropriate APA formatting.
Speaker 1:You bet I did. A list of my works cited can be found on our Instagram account. One thing we are really bad about that we should do better in the new year is citing our work. But honestly, who has time for?
Speaker 2:that I was going to say we did at the beginning, and then it was like I've got a job. I have a full time job with two small children and if people want, I will throw my research links up there. Boom, boom, boom. You want to go read Leo the Deacon in the original Greek? It's on there. Just let your fingers do the typing. It's there, I promise.
Speaker 1:It's all out there. If we can find it, you can find it.
Speaker 2:But now I'm really curious. So you still have like a copy of that research paper and everything, right, I do Did like the research that you did back then. Does it mirror the research that you came up with now, or is there new or different stuff that's come out?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's such a good question. So I should say that my research paper was on a slightly different topic than what I'm going to talk about today. However, the story I'm going to tell you was included in my research paper. However, going back, katie and I are not that old. When we went to college, we had access to the internet. We had had access to the internet for a long time. We all knew about what good sources were versus bad websites and things like that. There were things that came up in my paper where I was like that doesn't sound right, knowing what I I think I again, like I said in your story, I'm so jaded after doing so much history research that when I see certain numbers or certain facts or statistics, I'm like no, there's something else going on here. So there were a few things that I said that I know I read, but, knowing what I know now, I would have gone back and double-checked those numbers and realized they were not true. Oh, like what?
Speaker 1:Well, let me teach you, I'll get to it and then I'll tell you what it was. So, Katie, I want to tell you the story of Peter Stump, the werewolf of Bedburg.
Speaker 2:I was expecting witches, but this is taking me for a total left turn.
Speaker 1:That was kind of unfair. It was witchcraft and wizardry, but then I think our research project could be on anything like any topic within witchcraft, and werewolves fall within the realm of witchcraft. Does that make?
Speaker 2:sense. Yeah, are they bewitched? They're demonic.
Speaker 1:They're considered they consort with witches. Okay, fair enough, I'll allow it. I will allow this. Peter Stump was also known as Peter Stube, peter Stub, peter Stumpf, stube Peter and Abel Griswold Just put it out there. Now a note of interest the name Stump or Stumpf may have been given to Peter as kind of a nickname in reference to the fact that his left hand had been cut off, leaving only a stump. Stumpf or stumpf is German for stump or blunt. Which, katie, it just makes me realize we are all one appendage cut off away from a stupid 16th century European nickname. Look, he's missing his arm. Let's call him Peter Stump. But this nickname is relevant later on.
Speaker 1:Okay, so Peter was a wealthy farmer in Germany. We don't know exactly where or when he was born, but we think he was born near Bedburg, germany, around 1530. Now the only real information we have about Peter's life, his crimes and his trial is a 16-page pamphlet that was published in London in 1590. The pamphlet is a translation of a German pamphlet, but no copies of the German one exist, only the English one, and you absolutely can find it on the internet and read it for yourself. I did, and it's a fascinating read Only 16 pages. So in addition to being a farmer, we know Peter was a widower and a father of two. He also was a fairly wealthy farmer, which granted him a certain level of respect within his community, and the local villagers who lived with him, by all accounts, found him generally pleasant, that is until the murders.
Speaker 2:This is like how all really great German fairy tales start too. Like a widowed rich farmer, two small children.
Speaker 1:I was going to say Dateline episodes. If you could just picture what I just said, if you could hear it in Keith Morrison's voice.
Speaker 2:In a German, keith Morrison, and he's wearing lederhosen. Dankeschön.
Speaker 1:Is that a German word? Yes, thank you. No, I could do that in Keith word. Yes, thank you. No, I could do that in Keith Morrison's voice.
Speaker 1:Now, for years, farmers in the Bedburg area were perplexed when they would occasionally go out into the fields and find their cows dead, their bodies ripped open by some savage and mysterious creature. But at some point children too began to disappear, and then several young pregnant women disappeared as well. Some of these bodies were found, and they were found horribly mutilated, but many of the other bodies were never seen again. This led the community of Bedberg to essentially freak out. The villagers naturally suspected wolves, as indeed wolves were a big problem to Europeans at this time. Shortly thereafter, the limbs of several missing people were found in a field and villagers were like okay, right, this has to be a wolf. So several hunters, along with their dogs, set out to hunt down this wolf. The hunters tracked the wolf for several days until they finally saw it. Their dogs chased the wolf down and they had it cornered. When the hunters approached, they realized it wasn't a wolf that they had cornered. It was Peter Stump.
Speaker 2:But go on. How did they mistake a man for a wolf?
Speaker 1:Okay, so this? Herein lies the problem, katie. They had clearly just seen a wolf and their dogs had just seen a wolf, but here was this man, peter, cornered in the forest. How could a man be responsible for the horrific murders of all of these people and livestock? The only logical solution was that Peter Stube was a werewolf, obviously, obviously, a werewolf, obviously.
Speaker 2:Obviously Wait, wait. When they found him was he naked?
Speaker 1:Good question. So it's unclear in the pamphlet. If he was full on naked, my understanding is that for sure he carried walking sticks, and this is relevant later on too. Okay, he may or may not have been wearing wolf, like a wolf, uh, wolf skin skin on him, but again, it's very unclear. It didn't say what he was wearing. But I think that's an excellent point, katie, and this is why you should have been a 16th century cop.
Speaker 2:World's only 16th century female German cop. Very believable.
Speaker 1:There's Katie with her little badge. She's got a little mustache curls on the end. A monocle, A monocle. Yes, you have to have a monocle, yes.
Speaker 1:So Peter was arrested and brought to trial, where he was tortured on the rack and eventually confessed to all of the murders. He claimed that he had consorted with the devil, who gave him a magical belt made of wolf fur when he was only 12 years old. Now, keep in mind, at this point Peter is around 25 years old. Peter claimed so. He had been like werewolfing it for a long time, For 13 years.
Speaker 1:Peter claimed that when he put the belt on, he transformed into quote the likeness of a greedy devouring wolf, strong and mighty, with eyes great and large which in the night, sparkled like brands of fire, a mouth great and wide with most sharp and cruel teeth, a huge body and mighty paws. End quote when Peter took the belt off, that is when he would return to his human state. Now, like I said, when the hunting party found Peter, they did not see a magic belt at all, just a walking stick. And, like I said, I feel like this is kind of relevant later on in the story. So, all in all, peter was charged with the deaths of 13 children, of whom he allegedly strangled and ripped their throats open with his bare hands. It was claimed that he would then disembowel them and eat parts of them which parts, I don't know, but I'm assuming the bowel part. He was also charged with sexually assaulting several women and then tearing them apart and eating them. Two of the women were pregnant and allegedly he ripped out the fetuses and ate their hearts.
Speaker 1:And of course, he was charged with ripping apart and devouring numerous livestock. Something worth noting also is that there was at least one child who was able to escape an attack by a wolf. That is Peter. As the story goes, several children were playing in a meadow when the wolf attacked them. The wolf grabbed one little girl by the neck, but her high, stiff collar prevented him from ripping her throat out. She was able to scream, which caused the cows in the field to flip out and charge the wolf let go of the little girl, and she escaped. So she's one of the lucky ones, I guess. It was also claimed that Peter had incestuous relationships with his sister and his own daughter. He also allegedly murdered his son, leading the boy into the forest where he apparently killed him and ate his brains. Now, katie, like we've been saying this whole episode, we've been doing this for a few years now, and I don't know about you, but this is kind of giving me Elizabeth Bathory vibes. Do you remember Elizabeth Bathory?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, that it was very unlikely that she murdered as many young women as was claimed.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, so long before Salem had the witch trials, Europe had the werewolf trials. Ooh, Between 1527 and 1725, there were at least 18 werewolf trials that took place throughout Europe. Europe's fear of wolves can be traced back to the Middle Ages, where there was indeed a real fear of being written by rabid wolves. And of course this led me to think actually, let me go back and say something real fast. So in my paper I wrote in college I think it was something like 300,000 people were accused of being werewolves, and I saw that number pop up in my research. Now I was like that is ridiculous, Like that is way too much. Then that 300,000 comes from some guy in the 18th century writing about the werewolf trials, and that was his guesstimate at the end of the day there were 18 werewolf trials that took place within 200 years.
Speaker 1:So I don't think that number is correct. At the time I wrote the paper I mean it was part of my research but it didn't ring any bells like it did now, thinking something's up here I mean, could it have been that 300 000 people were accused, but even then it would only have 18 trials out of 300.
Speaker 1:That's a very small percentage yes, I think it was somebody else you know, hundreds of years ago doing their version of math research, calculating and I'm getting, I, I get 300,000. No, no, no, no, no, try like 20.
Speaker 2:This is why kids these days are doing the new math, because the old math that's the kind of stuff you'd get.
Speaker 1:This is why we have Common Core. Because of the werewolf trials.
Speaker 2:My children will learn the old fashioned way using cubits. Damn it.
Speaker 1:And protractors it and protractors. So I thought it was interesting that people were. They had a actual fear of being bitten, not just by wolves, but by rabid wolves, to be fair to the people of the middle ages. Fun fact did you know in lithuania between eight excuse me, between 1989 and 2001, 22 people were bitten by rabid wolves.
Speaker 2:Jesus, I mean, getting bitten by a wolf alone is traumatizing, but a rabid wolf what are they doing in Lithuania, in which that many people were coming into contact with rabid wolves that frequently?
Speaker 1:I know, I know. So anyway, my point being it's not completely unreasonable for Europeans, during the Middle Ages, to have these fears of wolves. These fears were also compounded by a little ice age. During this time that decreased temperatures in Western Europe, and this resulted in devastating shortages of crops and livestock. There also was the Great Famine in the early 1300s, as well as the Black Death in the mid-1300s, and both of these things wiped out huge populations of Western Europe. So Europeans were stressed, and if there is one thing that stressed out Europeans don't have time for it's wolves looking to eat their livestock.
Speaker 2:Nope.
Speaker 1:Nope. In the late 1200s, england's King Edward ordered the extermination of wolves in some parts of the country. In 1427, king of the Scots, james I, passed a law requiring three wolf hunts a year. The French government actually hired an elite group of hunters to control the wolf population. Even when Western Europe's population bounced back and doubled by the early 17th century, this still meant less land for wolves to live on, and so these wolves are coming into people's farmland, and people have even less tolerance at this point for wolves looking to take down their livestock.
Speaker 1:My point is being killing wolves was a bit of an obsession for Europeans for centuries. Now, going back to Peter, it seems that this natural fear of wolves was combined with superstition, religious and political issues, and many people were just looking for scapegoats. Those scapegoats would basically be anyone they could accuse of being a werewolf. So remember when I mentioned that Peter had a stump in place of his left hand. Yes, so superstition claimed that an injury to a werewolf would result in the same injury to the person who was the werewolf. People claimed that the wolf they saw had its left forepaw cut off, and Peter, of course, was missing his left hand. So therefore he must be the wolf.
Speaker 1:Many of the people accused of being werewolves during this time were beggars or hermits. These people also seem to only confess while being horrifically tortured. Interesting so historians nowadays, interesting connection. Historians nowadays believe that these people might have suffered from delusions or that they weren't of capacity to fully understand what they were confessing to. And I think by that they mean maybe they either just mentally weren't well enough to know what they were confessing to, or they were being so horrifically tortured that their minds just weren't thinking clearly and rationally.
Speaker 1:I'll just say yes, no of course I don't have a magical belt. I'll just say yes to end the torture. Now, when tortured, peter confessed to having a magical belt but, like we talked about, when the hunters found him they didn't find a belt, only a walking stick. So the question is, was he delusional and he made up the story? Did he believe he had a belt, or did he not actually ever have a belt and he was just making it up to get a torture does?
Speaker 2:that make sense? Yeah, no, I I think if you're, I feel like if you're being tortured, you'll say anything to make it stop, like no matter how ridiculous, depending on the type of torture. I said, yeah, I've never been tortured so I can't say, but I imagine you've never been tortured on the rack have not been drawn and quartered.
Speaker 1:No, now it is possible that some of the accused werewolves were actually serial killers. Some sources do suggest that Peter covered himself in wolf skins to commit his murders. So the other question is if this is true, right, if those sources are accurate, did he think he was a wolf when committing the murders or did he? Did he just happen to be wearing them? Because that was like what wealthy farmers did, or that he he thought that if people caught him.
Speaker 2:They would think it's a wolf, and then he'd be able to get away, right, yeah?
Speaker 1:right, kind of just like elizabeth bathory. It's really hard to untangle this folklore from people's eyewitness accounts, from real evidence. Now, of course, there's also the religion piece. Uh, if you think back to elizabeth bathory, she was I think she was a protestant or cal, I forget, but anyway there was a whole religious piece there.
Speaker 1:In this case, peter was a Protestant, and the Lord of Bedberg, whose name was Count Adolf Neuenair, was also a Protestant, meaning he supported and looked out for the Protestant community members in the area. However, after the defeat of the Protestants in 1587, bedburg Castle fell under the control of Count Werner of this is a very unfortunate name that I cannot pronounce Count Werner of Salmonella Reiferscht. Anyway, he was a Catholic and by all accounts, he was willing to do whatever it took to reestablish Roman Catholicism in the area. So was Peter used as an example of what happens to people who don't follow the true church? So let's you know, accuse Peter of being a werewolf because he's a Protestant. If you don't want to be accused of a werewolf, then you should come over to the Catholic side Interesting, was he?
Speaker 2:I mean, was there any historical evidence to suggest that he was? I know you said that he was wealthy, but that he had like political aspirations or that he ran afoul of the church or the any of the government in any way.
Speaker 1:Maybe Not that I read. My guess is it's a combination of things. I think it's a little bit confusing because he was wealthy, which then people then respected him. I don't know if they just respected him because he was wealthy or because he was a good person, but I think it's a combination. My guess is based on descriptions of Peter. He was kind of an outcast. Sure, he might have been a farmer and maybe he kept to himself being a widower taking care of his kids. Maybe he just didn't have time for a lot of other people. He was busy and didn't spend a lot of time out in the community. He was missing a hand. I don't know, being a Protestant, like all of those things just added up. But again, could he have actually murdered people and tried to blame it on wolves? That's possible too.
Speaker 2:Do you think it really was a wolf or do you think it was a serial killer? And poor Peter's just getting he's a scapegoat.
Speaker 1:Katie, you and I, we could have teamed up in the 16th century like Cindy and Katie. We'd have our own little version of Dateline. I don't know, katie, we'd have our own little version of Dateline. I don't know. Because here's my question when Peter was arrested, did Peter?
Speaker 2:the murder stopped happening. That's what I was going to ask you. That's my next question.
Speaker 1:And there's no record of it whatsoever. And these people who went missing, a lot of people had fears of wolves taking children. Apparently, wolves were like. Wolves did take children oh yes, snatch them up. But it wasn't. But they also exterminated so many of them by this point that there weren't that many wolves left to begin with. I feel like a lot of the fears people had were just left over from earlier time periods. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:No, cindy. That's why I believe that we have fears of, like Bigfoot and fairies, that it's a holdover from some, you know, evolutionary fear of some kind of creature that we had that hunted us, or fear of some kind of creature that we had, that that hunted us or or competed with us for resources. So I don't feel like that. That theory of yours is that ridiculous or anything like that.
Speaker 1:I think it's totally legit my biggest fear is that, my biggest fear. I'm about like 400 years, 500 years too late to this, but maybe I don't think I think a wolf was taking down livestock. I think there was a serial killer taking down these kids and these women and maybe Peter had nothing to do with any of it, but he was blamed because he was kind of maybe an odd duck in the community. And there was still a serial killer out there on the loose, I agree, and got away with this and we'll never know who that was.
Speaker 2:That's my theory too, it was Jack the Ripper. He just time traveled. What an asshole.
Speaker 1:He's not good enough to stay in your own time. Gotta try time travel.
Speaker 2:He could have killed Hitler, but instead he just wanted to slash prostitutes. What a jerk.
Speaker 1:I know, I know. So, whether or not Peter was a werewolf, a serial killer or a victim of his time, he was nonetheless found guilty on October 28, 1589, and was sentenced to execution. But he wasn't just executed, Katie. Peter's execution was one of the most gruesome executions of all time. His body was strapped on a large wheel and his flesh was pulled from his bones in ten places with red hot pincers. His legs were then broken with a large axe and his head was cut off. Then the wheel on which he was tortured was placed high up on a pole from which sixteen long strips of wood hung, each strip representing one of his victims. On top of that was a framed likeness of a wolf, and above that, Peter's head sat atop a sharpened point of a pole. To top it all off, the rest of his body was burned, along with his daughter's body and his mistress's body, as punishment for allegedly abetting his crimes. So I ask you, Katie, what do you think was the murder of the century, Peter's alleged crimes or Peter's execution?
Speaker 2:I think his execution that was pretty brutal because it was also it was not just him, it was like his daughter and his mistress Like think it's just sad. No, I'll give you, I'll give it to you. Cindy, that's just a terrible, terrible. And all those other, cindy, that's just terrible. Terrible, and all those other murders.
Speaker 1:There's so much murder. I only had one murder, so much murdering in like one area of Germany. I don't know where Bedburg is, I don't know how big it is, but that seems like a lot. That seems like a lot For this time period.
Speaker 2:As opposed to just like one murder in Constantinople, like come on, come on.
Speaker 1:well, now I'm curious to know where the heck bedberg is. I'm gonna google and actually, now that I say that, it sounds kind of familiar, it's probably. It's probably like the second largest city in germany and you and I are just silly americans no, to be fair, it's like it's itty bitty Bedbug.
Speaker 2:It's near cologne. Okay, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:So in my Katie's sleuthing she's like this all makes sense now. No, no, cologne.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so in my besieging research, for some reason um different torture methods also came up and, uh, one of the things was, I guess, um flaying, which you mentioned. Like they flayed him alive. It's actually very common in france and this all makes sense because it's pretty. Bedbrook is kind of close to france, it's not? Super close, but it's, like you know, closer than Berlin, you know.
Speaker 1:You know what's interesting In all of my werewolf research too, Germany and France seem to have the most issues with werewolves. England not so much. England was like ooh, we're just far enough that we are. It's smaller, we're just staying out of of that.
Speaker 2:but now that you're saying they were, you know they're close to each other, pretty close I mean there's belgium and luxembourg too in the way, but I'm sure the bell, the belgians are like hey, hey, you were strongly worded letter I think that they were just talking.
Speaker 1:They like talked amongst themselves. And, you know, one person talked to another and they're like oh, you won't believe. Like you know, my neighbor disappeared and so it's like have you heard about werewolves? You know, my sister over in you know the countryside in France, was telling me they have a real problem with these werewolves. Have you thought about that? And then just one thing leads to another.
Speaker 2:And then bam, they're part of the cultural zeitgeist.
Speaker 1:Well, that was a cheery note to end the new year on Katie.
Speaker 2:End the old year, begin the new year.
Speaker 1:Werewolves.
Speaker 2:Werewolves and military tactics. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Werewolves and besiegement Werewolves and military tactics, I don't know Werewolves and besiegement, werewolves and besiegement.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, that's. I'm going to go into the new year and I'm going to siege all of my bad habits and I'm going to go after it. I'm going to go after it like a rabid werewolf this year, boom.
Speaker 1:I love it. Forget Carpe Diem. Yes, besiege the day, besiege the day and get after it like a rabid werewolf. I love it, katie. That is going to be my resolution. There you go, perfect.
Speaker 2:And then 365 days four, five, five days from now we can see on our besiegement level.
Speaker 1:We'll see which one of us is in prison first, which one of us is in jail, which one of us is still out there On the lambs.
Speaker 2:Reaching our goals.
Speaker 1:I'm the lamb. Happy New Year, Katie. Happy New Year, Cindy.
Speaker 2:And Happy New Year to everyone. Listening by choice or by force.
Speaker 1:Here's looking at you, my family. Happy New Year, Katie. Looking at you, my family. Thank you.