Exploring Dyslexia: Understanding and Supporting Students

How much do you really know about dyslexia?

Join us as we explore this often-misunderstood learning disorder. Jayson and Penny dive into the importance of evaluation, therapy, and the crucial support needed for teachers and students facing dyslexia. Tune in to learn more!

Listen now to learn the following objectives:

• Learners will identify the ties between dyslexia and mental health
  
  
• Learners will identify what dyslexia is and the common misconceptions.
  
  
• Learners will identify effective teaching strategies for supporting students with dyslexia in the classroom. 

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Timestamps

[00:07:16] Understanding Dysgraphia and Dyslexia with Penny Stack.
[00:10:32] Podcast Creator Chooses Talking Over Writing
[00:13:31] Dyslexia: More than Just Poor Grades
[00:16:47] Experts discuss diagnosing dyslexia: professionals and tests
[00:23:35] Choosing Assessments for Visual Processing Skills
[00:36:06] Dyslexia hint
[00:38:37] Children's Perspectives Often Overlooked in Education
[00:43:59] Teachers crave OTP support; students may mask dyslexia
[00:52:02] The Hidden Impacts of Dyslexia Beyond Reading
[00:57:29] Creating a Supportive Community for Dyslexia
[00:58:26] Wrap-Up of OT Schoolhouse Episode 125

View the full show notes at otschoolhouse.com/episode125

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Transcript

0:00

In school based occupational therapy, we often talk about dysgraphia and how that impacts students. But what about the other DYS word common in the educational world? I'm talking about dyslexia. Today we are chatting with occupational therapist and founder of Dyslexia, RX, Penny Stack. Penny found her way into dyslexia through a personal story, which she will share with us in just a moment. But now she specializes in supporting individuals of all ages who have dyslexia. Today, Penny is here to help us understand the complexity of dysgraphia as a learning disorder, the importance of a property evaluation, and strategies for supporting students who have dysgraphia, as well as strategies for the teachers who help support those students. And before we jump into our chat with Penny, I wanted to let you know that members of the OT Schoolhouse Collaborative can earn 1 hour of professional development by listening to this episode. Just after listening, head into the podcast space and take the episode quiz. For this episode. If you're not yet an OT Schoolhouse Collaborative member, I invite you to check it out at otschoolhouse. Comcollab. As a member, you get access to live and recorded professional development, in addition to resources, research, live group mentorship hours with myself, and a supportive community of school based OT practitioners. You also, of course, get access to professional development by listening to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. Learn more about the Otschoolhouse Collaborative@otschoolhouse.com collab or by checking out the link in the show notes. All right, now let's go ahead and cue the intro, and when we come back, it's all about dyslexia with Penny Stack. Hello, and welcome to the OT Schoolhouse Podcast, your source for school based occupational therapy tips, interviews, and professional development. Now, to get the conversation started, here is your host, Jason Davies. Class is officially in session. Penny. Welcome to the OT schoolhouse. Podcast. How are you doing today? I'm doing great, Jason. Thanks for having me. Yeah, wonderful. It is such a pleasure to have you. When it comes to occupational therapy, a lot of people think about dysgraphia, but there's another learning disability that OTS can support, and that is dyslexia. That's what we're here to talk about today. And as we dive into that, I. Just want to give you a moment. To first kind of share a little bit about your background as an occupational therapist and how you got to where you are today. Sure. I appreciate that. So I've been in OT for about a little over 33 years, give or take, and when I started out in. Practice, I did not even know what. Dyslexia was and certainly was not my area of expertise. My area of expertise was working with traumatic brain injury. And then, just like many other OTS, I've worked in a variety of settings, including school systems. So it wasn't until I had my. Daughter and we started realizing that she had dyslexia, and again, never thought I. Heard of the word until she was diagnosed, to be honest, I started asking my colleagues, speech therapist, OT's, hey, what do you do to treat Dyslexia? And the number one, well, number two. Answers I got, the most frequent answers were, we don't. And I said, well, who do you refer to? I don't know. There was no context. And so I did what a lot of moms do and just brought her to a variety of after school academic. Programs, tutoring, things of that nature. And when I realized that her changes. Weren'T permanent and I was spending thousands of dollars, I mean, I was taking. Out loans at this point to provide. Support for her, I remembered that I was an OT. And I say that tongue in cheek. Because I think as parents, we focus. On being the mom or the dad or the caregiver, and sometimes we forget what we do for a living, and we're in panic mode, right? We just don't want to see our child suffer. So I thought, let me try something. I have an area of expertise in traumatic brain injury. Let me kind of think about it in that context. And in my head, I had to take away the Dyslexia diagnosis. And I thought, what if she came. To me with a traumatic brain injury? What would I do? And so I just turned into OT mode and started looking at her executive cognitive function. I started treating that and lo and behold, I saw progress. Why? Because the brain has plasticity and it's. Huge light bulb moment. So that's how it all started. I am the founder of Dyslexia Center of Tulsa and the Educate to Advocate podcast, which I successfully sold last year. And during that time, during those twelve ish years, I worked with individuals. The youngest was four, oldest was 64. In helping them with Dyslexia. And no one really thinks of OT when they think of Dyslexia, they think. Of teachers or reading specialists or Dyslexia specialists. And I know we're going to get more into the role of OT in a little bit. So that's what I was doing. And then after I sold, I was like just riding the wave of having some free time, thinking, oh, this is great. But then I had this nagging thought and that was that whole mental health side of Dyslexia and the prevalence rate of suicide, anxiety and depression. And then I launched Dyslexia RX, because now that is what I am addressing. And so that's kind of I think it found me more than I found it. Yeah, definitely sounds like it. So how's your daughter doing? I'm assuming she's thriving in the world today. That is a great question. And I do want to say this because I know this is going out as a podcast, but when my daughter was growing up, I never spoke about her or put her on social media or referenced her. But now that she is an adult, I do have her permission to share her story. And I always feel like obligated to let people know. I'm just not talking about my daughter like she's aware. So I remember, I think when I hit rock bottom, sitting at the bottom of my stairs crying, wondering if she. Was ever going to be able to take care of herself. I'm talking minimum wage, job, just getting by. I was in sheer panic. And I say that because a lot. Of parents feel that but will not express that because they feel like a failure. Now, I can honestly say she's a junior in college. She is majoring. Let me see if I get the major. She changes all the time. So let me see if I can get this right. Something I think a minor in religion, organizational leadership and women's studies. She'd like to work in a not for profit. That's really where her heart is. And I am really a proud mom to say she's never failed a college class. And I say that because I have failed many college classes, right. So I have so much respect for her. She's done really well, honor society, sorority, working, volunteer hours. I don't know whose kid she is. But I am just so pleasantly pleased. And as much as I'm proud of her, I also share that story because it is possible. It is possible to have dyslexia and be very successful. That's great. That is great to hear. Thank you for sharing that story. It's nice to hear those good stories. So as I kind of alluded to a moment ago, we're here to talk about dyslexia. And when it comes to an IEP, there's a specific learning disability. That's what most of our kids have as their primary qualification for an IEP, especially with dyslexia. But before we dive into those specifics of the IEP, I just want to ask you for kind of that working definition for dyslexia as we're going to talk about it today. And this could be the DSM version, this could be your version. I just want to hear how you kind of put together dyslexia. So I know this is audio only, but you can see me smiling, almost breaking out until after, because that is the golden question. There is no standardized definition for dyslexia. With that said, there's also no standardization for what needs to be tested or how it needs to be tested, which. I think leads to a lot of confusion. The International Dyslexia Association and Dr. Sally Sheiwitz with Yale Center for Creativity and Dyslexia. They both reference Dyslexia to be a language processing disorder. So then what the heck is OT doing in the mix, right? And we'll get to that because I know that's a big question here. And my definition of dyslexia, it's a snowflake. It is different in everybody. Characteristics are very different. But to me, dyslexia is not about reading. And I want everybody to just sit with that uncomfortableness for a minute. Dyslexia is not about reading. And I used to be terrified to. Say that out loud, to be honest with you. And I say that because when you. Look at all the Dyslexia programs that. Are out there, they are mostly developed by educators, and none of them address. Executive cognitive function or everything else that goes into Dyslexia. But yet when you look at the research behind it, it's in there. And so the question we ask ourselves is, why is that not addressed? Why? Because educators are the first ones to really see that children are having difficulty with reading. So they're staying in their wheelhouse, in their lane, and they're specializing programs that will accentuate reading, which is the exact thing to do. However, it's really important to understand that. When we have a child coming to. Us with Dyslexia, if we assume it's just about reading, we miss 90% of what we can do to treat. And so to me, when I think about Dyslexia and what is Dyslexia, I. Think about the whole person. I think about Dyslexia as being something that defines a path someone might take. It is this big reason why people. Make choices about occupations they engage in. And I'm not talking about a job. But maybe leisure activities they want to do or hobbies. They will steer away from one thing. Because maybe of shame or feeling that they can't do something. And to me, that's what Dyslexia is. If we think Dyslexia is just about reading and we only treat reading and we make the assumption that reading will make everything better, we have really missed servicing the person. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. I actually want to kind of chime in with my own little story. Now, I'm not going to self diagnose myself as having dyslexia dysgraphia anything else. But part of the reason that I actually have a podcast, as opposed to writing a blog every week or every year of the week, is because for me, writing, typing, putting my words onto paper or some sort of visual system is hard for me. I'm much better at talking. I prefer talking. And so that's kind of why I went the route of a podcast as opposed to a blog several years ago. And when I think about that and what you just said, it almost sounds like Dyslexia is a symptom of a problem, not the actual problem itself. And I'd love to let you chime in on that. Bingo. I could not have said that better myself. So it's an iceberg. We've all seen that image of an. Iceberg, difficulty reading on top, and you. Look below the water, and there's like a gazillion things under the water, and. That'S exactly what's happening. So challenges with reading or spelling, those are symptoms. That is not the why. Let me give you a really easy example. So some people with Dyslexia may have difficulty putting letters in the correct order when they spell a sight word, or. They may have difficulty remembering what they're reading. More times than not. If you peel that onion layer back. You may find deficits in visual memory. Or spatial awareness, or you may find. Sensory issues that they have going on or a lack of integration of primitive reflexes. There's always a why. And what many of the reading programs do is instead of addressing the why, they get right into the phonics of it all, which is a very high level executive cognitive function. But if we don't peel that onion layer back and look at visual memory, all the different visual perceptual skills, auditory processing, are they integrated? Are there reflexes? Do they have sensory issues? Is their core strength okay? Like all these things feed into our. Ability to do this high level function. If we do not look into that, then we're leaving a lot on the. Table that absolutely should be getting addressed. Wow. So then when you have a teacher, a parent, someone who cares for a child coming to you, what are some. Of those key things you're looking for? When they're describing their child and they think that their child has dyslexia? What are you trying to tease out a little bit? What are you trying to hear from them? Great question. So I think that's where the list. Of symptoms come into play or the list of characteristics. It's almost like a checklist. So you think about somebody that may. Have a fractured bone. You look at their X ray, you. See the fracture, you see the swelling, you see the deformity of the bone, lack of ability to move it, lack of strength. So with dyslexia, it's not that clear cut. And you can have two people with they present the same meaning. Their grades are low and they have difficulty spelling, but their characteristics could be completely different. So what I am looking for the most, no matter what story the parent. Shares with us, is the fact that it doesn't connect. For example, you can have difficulty with word retrieval, but that doesn't say that you will have difficulty spelling. You could have difficulty with processing speed, but it doesn't say you'll have difficulty with reading comprehension. You can have difficulty with writing, but it doesn't say you'll have difficulty with written expression. So one doesn't lead to another. And then the other thing you will. Always hear is when somebody has dyslexia, after a parent goes down the list of all their concerns, 100% every single parent or caregiver, this is what will come next. But Sally's really smart. That sentence will always be in there. It's not bright, it's not genius, it's not gifted. They use the word smart and then they will tell you in great detail. All the things their child does very well. And that's when your light bulb goes off and the bell rings and you're. Like ding ding ding ding ding. So as occupational therapists and teachers and people who support and work with children. We have something that really is unique to us, and that is the skill of observation. And it's powerful and being able to pull that out because if we have a student who's really, really good at. Something but yet this one thing over. Here, whether it's reading or spelling or. Comprehending or following directions, but you've got. This little pocket that they are struggling and they have younger siblings surpassing them. What that tells you is they have the ability, but their performance is much. Lower than their ability. That gap, that's the dyslexia. And Dr. Sally Sheawitz, like I cited earlier, she really speaks to this. And there's a lot of research out. There that speaks to that. There's also new research coming out saying that may or may not be true, but there's not enough for me to say, yeah, let's go with that research. I think that research is just emerging, but it's when there's a gap. Now, how is this different from somebody. Who doesn't have dyslexia, somebody that doesn't have dyslexia? Their story is going to be very different. And what I mean by that is they're going to be whatever performance level they are demonstrating. They are like that across the board. There's nothing in contrast, exceptional to where they're struggling. If they're struggling in one area, they're struggling at all. Got you. And I think that when you think about what am I listening for? I'm looking for that difference, that big contrast of ability versus performance. Okay, great. And so now you're doing a lot with dyslexia. You're doing evaluations. You have a whole team that works with plenty of kids and adults, it sounds like, that have dyslexia. You're an OT. But in a lot of parts of the world you mentioned, right? Like teachers are oftentimes the first ones to kind of get that concern. But are there other professionals that are looking into this school psychologist, clinical psychologist, whatever it might be? And then a second part to that question, I guess, is how are they even attempting to diagnose this? Are there tests out there that they use or what does that look like? First of all, I love that you think I can remember a two part question. I will do my best. Okay. The first part is the people who is evaluating dyslexia, that was my fault. It's all in good humor, right? And so only a psychologist, clinical psychologist, neuropsychologist can diagnose. And I think that's really important because there are a lot of providers out there, such as myself, who can do evaluations and can screen for dyslexia. But as an occupational therapist, as you know, we cannot provide a medical diagnosis. We can do a treatment diagnosis, but not a medical diagnosis. And clarifying that with parents or families. I think is first and foremost, and. Let them know what the difference is. So what I always share with parents is I do an in depth evaluation, but I do it to identify areas. Of concern for treatment, not necessarily for a diagnosis. So with that being said, when I. Started looking at Dyslexia, at the time, there was not a lot of research on occupational therapy and Dyslexia. And the research I did find, which is pretty much the research I'm finding now as well, is more on the. Visual perceptual, visual motor side. Okay, right. So if you have somebody who has difficulty with letter reversals testing, their spatial awareness or testing like the Jordan left right test reversals, those are all really important assessments to do. So I use a lot of standardized testing. I also have a screener on my website that lists I mean, there's a gazillion questions there. There's probably 50 or 60 questions there. And it's looking at their lived experience because their story, especially with older children or adults, is super important because if you have somebody that's had a higher. Education, they will do well on all your testing. That's true, but it doesn't mean they don't have Dyslexia. So I digress. You asked me about testing. Okay. So let me go back. Okay. So, for example, I will administer the Berry visual motor integration because I want to see how much control they have over their pencil and can they copy? I use the test for visual motor. TVPS test for visual motor processing, skills. Processing or yeah, something like that. Perceptual. There we go. TVPS four, whatever that is. Google it, look it up. I cannot remember the long name of. It, but there's a lot of discussion. About that because I know the Berry. Has a visual perceptual test as well. And the motor and the Mvpt is also a visual perceptual test. I've used all of them. Let me tell you the why and why not, because this is where we get into the weeds with it. So I don't use the Berry visual. Perceptual test because in my mind, it's. A spatial awareness test. Okay? When you think about you're looking at. Shapes and you're doing those designs and. The Mvpt, the Motor Free Visual Perceptual Test, I think that's what that stands for. It only gives you one overall score. And it doesn't break out each subtest. From a statistical standpoint. So you're having to guess, let's say. There'S ten slides on, I don't know, visual closure. You would have to count. They got five out of ten, so they got 50%. So it's not very statistically sound to do it that way. I prefer the TVPS because it looks at visual closure, visual perceptual skill, spatial. Awareness, visual memory, figure ground. It looks at all of these, and I believe there's a few more, and they give percentile ranks on each of them. So the difference is, let's say you. Did the Berry spatial awareness test and they scored fine. How do you know what their visual closure is? Yeah, don't. How do you know what their ground is? You don't. And on the Mvpt, they have an overall score. Let's say they scored in the 30th. Percentile rank, which is well, with an. Average check, they're great, no problem. But on the TVPS, what if they. Score in the 30th percentile rank? And maybe their visual closure was in the fourth percentile rank and their spatial awareness was in the 98th percentile rank. So when you add up all the. Subtests, sure it comes to 30, but. You'Ve got this visual closure in the fifth percentile rank. So you can tweeze that out and you can treat just that. And I think that's what's so very important when you are looking at evaluation. What's the utility of it? How can you use it? I also use the test for information processing skills. This looks at short term working memory. One and two and delayed recall. I use the CTOP, the Comprehensive Test of Phonological Processing Skills to tease out phonological awareness, phonological memory. And this is a great assessment for. Speech therapy as well. I do the scan. Three auditory screener. What I love about it is it's a standardized screener. Anybody can do it. Teachers can do this. OTS, any discipline. Now, just to be clear, only an. Audiologist can diagnose auditory processing disorder. And speech therapist, it's in their domain of practice to treat it. But as OTS, we can screen for it. And so why do we screen for it? Because when we have a client or student and I'm sure everyone's listening to this can relate to it. You ask a child, Go pet the cat. And you look around and they're grabbing their hat. They're just not processing the sound. It's not auditory acuity. Can they hear it? They may not be able to process blending sounds correctly. And so screening for that auditory processing is really important. I will say with that, though, it is very rare. Auditory processing is only two to 3% of the population. And if you have dyslexia, it can. Go up to 5%. But boy, if you miss it, that. Kid can be on years of services. Without any progress or very limited progress. And be very frustrated. So it is really important to catch. Even though its prevalence rate is very low. Got you. I loved how you talk about finding evaluations that are actually looking at what we want to look at. When I use the Ravma, which is similar to the VMI, I try and look at the visual motor integration part and compare that to the visual spatial part. But that one's very similar to the VMI in the sense that, like you said, you're not looking at closure. You're not looking at some of the other fine tuned, I guess you could call it, skills that are really involved with visual processing. And that's why I tend to like the DTVP Developmental Test of Visual Processing Skills. And they have one for adults, one for adolescents and kids. But that one like you kind of mentioned it gave me more information than just overall processing. I really like when my school psychologists use the VMI because then they're kind of able to say, okay, I think something's up. Now I'm going to pass this over to the OT to do a little bit more, go more in depth with some of those tests that can be a little bit more specialized, I guess you can call it. So yeah, that's great. Thanks for sharing so many of the actual assessments that you use. You're welcome. There are a few more, but one other one I want to make sure I mention is the Sensory Profile measure because it's really important that we consider what's going on in their environment, especially kids are not the same as kids were 2030 years ago. We have COVID, which really changed how children develop. We have children we have technology which really changes how much children spend time outside and playing. And so I really take a look at that to see if it's an issue of sensory issues or just lack of opportunity. Because again, if we don't address these. Core foundational skills, that higher expectation of reading will be pretty challenging. Absolutely. Thanks for sharing that. We always have to be sure to look at that sensory profile for every I don't know, really for just about everyone. We all have different sensory profiles. Just the other day we were talking about how there needs to be a screener, if there isn't one already, to give to teachers so that they can even better understand their own sensory preferences. And whatnot now staying kind of along the lines of sensory integration, sensory processing. I know from my training within sensory integration that there tends to be profiles like there's VBIs, vestibular, bilateral integration, and there's a few others within Dyslexia. Do you tend to see some of those patterns kind of emerge through all the evaluations that you've done? Are there a few particular skill sets that you tend to kind of see, maybe even paired with another one? Okay, you're going to love this answer. I did not prepare you for this answer. Okay. So my area of expertise, of clinical expertise is Dyslexia. I do know that all of these other components make us up to be able to perform. However, I'm not a pediatric therapist. To me they're very different. And so I administer the Sensory profile measure and if the child's indicating that they have deficits in any of the. Areas, I immediately turn the parent around. And refer them to a pediatric outpatient clinic or somebody that specializes in treating sensory processing because that's about as far as my skill set can go. It's just something that I've chosen to really dive into Dyslexia and understand it well. And I think that leads me into the other part that I know we're getting to, but we might just jump. Into it is the team. Yeah. So I do what I do, and I do it well, but that's all I can do. And I've done that with intention. And so if I have a child who needs help with phonological awareness or associating sound with a letter, I don't even try to address that. We have a speech therapist on our team who will work with them, or. If they aren't on my team, I'll refer out, for example, I have a. Play therapist that I collaborate with that helps me with a lot of behaviors and just that communication between parent and child. So even though I may test or screen for something and I think this. Is really important to share, I think. As OTS, we tend to think we have to do it all or be experts in it all because we're taught as generalist. But I really believe it's okay to say you don't know. It is totally okay and preferred if you really don't know. And in that case, if you know it's not an area of interest of yours or that it's not your area of expertise, then the best thing to do is develop that team around you in your community. Who can you refer to? Who can you connect with? And so that's pretty much how I've set that up. So back to your sensory question. I don't even know the phrase that you use. Like, I don't even know what that is. So that's how no, I think what. I was trying to I was trying. To use that as an example a little bit. But just when you've done hundreds, if not more evaluations and therapy for students who have Dyslexia, are there certain patterns that you see within Dyslexia, even, like sometimes you might see high visual motor, low visual processing or increased fine motor, low something else? Are there any patterns that you've come across? Yes, and thank you for reframing that. So years ago, I started collecting data. Just for my own understanding of what's. Going on and how things tie together. And when I was testing the primitive survival reflexes, the number one reflex, if. They were going to pop positive, was the spinal galant. And what I thought was interesting about. That reflex was if your spinal gallant. Reflex is not integrated, sometimes it can cause issues with memory or bed wetting or a few other things. And what I found interesting was when I would look at that and on my chart, I kind of kept track. Of all the things that would be. Impaired if they tested positive for spinal glaunt. And then I would compare it, like. Cross reference it with a standardized test that tested that and lo and behold, every child that was positive on spinal. Glaunt reflex also had impaired visual memory 100%. Wow. So there is a correlation and I'm. Going to throw something out there and it's just this is I really like to make clear what's research, what's my personal bias and what's my clinical. Observation. And so I want to be very transparent and share that this is coming from my clinical observation and maybe my personal bias. Right now. They say the prevalence of dyslexia is. One in five, and I'm starting to. Question that for a couple of reasons. I'm not quite sure if all cases are being tested. Dr. Sheawitz says that 80% of children with a specific learning disability in the school system actually has dyslexia, which is undiagnosed. Okay. I don't know how over or under it's diagnosed. For example, in Texas, dyslexia is very recognized. So dyslexia is a prevalent diagnosis. In Oklahoma, it's just emerging to be recognized. So most everybody there has ADHD. But with all that aside, when I take a look, when you talk about themes and prevalence and patterns, when I. Reflect on all the testing I've done. And the test results and the treatment. And I'm so grateful I don't diagnose because I probably would have misdiagnosed Gazillion kids, right? I'm so grateful. It's not my responsibility. But let's say we have two kids. And they both are behind in their reading and their spelling, and their scores are very low. And I work on both kids because I work on their executive cognitive function, because maybe they're having difficulties with memory or visual perceptual skills or whatever. One child after I do all that work with executive cognitive function skills may still struggle. But the other child, I work on all their executive cognitive function skills, and they're fine. Their readings, I haven't addressed reading at all, and they're fine. So I'm wondering how many of these children are being tested for reading and tested for dyslexia. And because we're only looking at that. Higher level skill, they're showing a deficit. And no one's really addressing their executive cognitive function, their sensory, their core, their reflexes. No one's addressing all of that. But if that were addressed, how many. Of them would be fine? Because dyslexia is not curable, right? And would we have a more accurate number? So that's the question that researcher part. Of me that I asked that I. Can'T seem to shake. Yeah. And research just continues to advance. Just with time, research advance, and with new research becomes or comes new terminology. And who knows? So many of our diagnoses could be spider web down into several other potential diagnosis. And the further that we can better understand, better explain, better give a name and a behavior to that specific diagnosis, the better that we can treat it in the long term. Like you said, two kids, same diagnosis, but need a different treatment methodology potentially. And maybe they just have a complete different diagnosis. Exactly. And when you think about that, this. Also comes to mind as therapists, diagnoses. Often don't matter in terms of what we're doing. I remember working in skilled nursing facilities years ago, and everybody had generalized weakness when one just had a triple bypass and the other had a total knee replacement. Right. And what do we do? We treat what we see. Yeah. And I think as OTS, we just really need to come back to some of the fundamentals that we learned in school and we're just treating the characteristics that we see. Yeah. You know what? Let's stay on that because you just kind of talked a little bit about what it might look like in an older population. All of us are school based OT's. We work with IEPs. Sure. And there are 13, if I'm getting this right, criteria that students can qualify for an IEP that might be slightly different depending on the state that you're in, but dyslexia is not one of them. Dysgraphia is not one of them. Specific learning disability is. Right. So I'm assuming that dyslexia would fall under that specific learning disability and just kind of, what, maybe an OT, a school based OT? Should they look for something in the IEP to kind of give them an idea that a student has dyslexia or what should be in that IEP or. What should they look for? Right. So just to start off, just to clarify, the 2015, the Assistant Secretary of the US. Department of Education, Office of Special Education and Rehabilitation wrote a letter and he went on to say, there's nothing in the Idia that would prohibit the use. Of the term dyslexia, dyscalculia, and dysgraphia. In the IDA Evaluation Eligibility Determinations, or IEP documents. All right, I'm just throwing that out. There because I get a lot of questions. Why don't they say dyslexia? And I have no idea why, because there's nothing written saying they can't, but they won't is more happening. And so when you're looking at an. IEP, I would look for the diagnosis of specific learning disability, and I would. Specifically look at that because Dr. Sally Sheawich's research shows that 80% of those with that designation have dyslexia. So it's like a swing and a miss. You're probably going to hit the nail on the head more often than not. Four out of five thinking that way. Yes. That if they have a specific learning disability, if they fall under an IEP with that category, the likelihood of them. Having dyslexia is most likely pretty high. That is a great takeaway. Those were two really big tidbits. I had never heard that language from the Assistant Secretary of the US. Department of Ed. That's awesome. I'm the type of person who I love finding those little details because those aren't things that are in idea the law itself. These are things that come out after the fact, and they're little tidbits. I always love this, so thanks for sharing that. And yeah, I think spot on. If you see that specific learning disability in there, that should cue you into potentially looking more into dyslexia. Great. Now let's dive more into the therapy side of it. I love talking about both therapy for an individual student as well as more of that communal type of team therapy that you even kind of alluded to before. And so if we are seeing a student individually, and maybe you have to give us a little background on a student before you dive into the therapy. But what does that potentially look like. For you for therapy? Right, so just like all of our. Care, it's very client centered and we. Always need to start there. And I say that because when we see a child that comes to us with Dyslexia, we always assume, oh, we need to teach them to read. Here's a new phonics program. But meanwhile, the child's really dealing with. Anxiety, depression, potentially suicide ideation, self talk. I'm not good enough, I'm a failure. I can't they think I'm stupid. Why bother trying? And if we just glaze over that. That'S a huge miss. And so I think with school therapist, this puts you in a tricky wiki, because you have dates and milestones you have to hit when you work in school. And you may and often may not. Have time to address these needs. But if you don't address these needs, the likelihood of progress being long lasting and the likelihood of that person being open to receive services when they move. On from your care are really slim. So I think what it looks like. For the child is really doing more. Asking and listening than telling. Finding out how it feels for the child to be asked to do something, finding out what's important to the child. Up until this point, he's been done. Or she's been done unto the parent. The teacher, everyone else knows what's good and this is what the child needs to do. But has anyone asked the child or explained to the child what's about to happen and how interested are they? And a lot of times, when it's just very human nature, when we are working on things that are hard for. Us, our willingness to work on them. Is really low and our frustration tolerance is really high. So doing them in small chunks and relating it to things that they enjoy doing. So if their visual perceptual skills are. Poor but they love Legos, relate it to Legos. Again, that's keeping it client centered, it's meaningful to the child. And acknowledging effort, which is different than giving a ribbon just for showing up, it's really acknowledging. I can see that you're working hard and I can see you're frustrated. That what you're working on, it's not. Coming out to reflect how much effort. You'Re putting in, but I see your effort. Just having those moments with the child. And making the activities fun, I think. Are the most important things you can do for a child. As far as supporting the team, there's. A few things to think about. And I don't know if I'm going. Off your question if I am just redirect. You're totally fine. That's exactly what the next question was. So if you're supporting the team, you have to keep in mind that the parent or the caregiver are part of that team. And if this child is a biological child of that parent, the likelihood of the parent having Dyslexia or a learning. Difference is pretty high. So think about the deficits the child has. The parents probably have the same deficit but are better at masking it. So think about how you're interacting with the parent and make those adjustments. It's usually really helpful. Pictures are great. And then I remember when I first went into practice and it doesn't matter what setting you're in. You're all gun ho and you want. To go show the world how smart you are because you just passed boards and you just graduated and you give. Them this big, huge, long program to do at home and then you wonder why it doesn't get done. Well, you and speech therapy and the teacher and their ballet instructor and everybody gave them things to do at home and now the list is too big. So when you're giving suggestions for things. To be done at home because we should working with a therapist once a week for 30 minutes in a group is not going to make a significant impact. We have to follow through. And I would either give a variety of things and let them choose and. Rotate throughout the day and limit it. Five minutes a day, ten minutes a. Day, just make it achievable. And I think that will be really helpful in working with the team, especially with a parent when working with a teacher. I can't imagine being a teacher in. A classroom of ten to 30 kids. And if one in five have Dyslexia and then other children with other learning needs, having to implement every single accommodation for every single kid and remembering all. That, I think my heart goes out to teachers. I think that's a huge ask, but. It'S something we have to ask them to do. So I would frame it in the. Context of let me help you make. Your classroom experience easier for you. Make it all about the teacher and. Not necessarily about the student. Because some of the accommodations or strategies they can implement for this one child. Will impact 20% of their class. Or maybe a fun activity for everybody. Or your teaching or skills that he. Or she that the teacher can do that will not take any more time. But can address everything. For example, maybe the teacher you want the teacher to work on memory with the child. And so the teacher in the morning. Goes over announcements 5 seconds later, what. Are we doing today? And then the children have to repeat it back. Or you're working on increasing memory in terms of length. And she gives two instructions. Maybe the next time she's giving three instructions, maybe four instructions, and can the children hold onto it? And she's kind of keying into who and who cannot hold onto it. So really working with the teacher to find out how does their day flow, what time do they have to do things? And then hearing what they have going on, can you come up with a plan? That the teacher can implement. That will not take much time out of her day or shift from what they're doing. That will still positively impact her students. Yeah, and I mean, some of those just sound like good educational strategies that a teacher would want to use anyways. I like to talk about that quick win for teachers. A lot of us, we struggle to get teachers on our sides at some of our school sites. And sometimes that quick win something like what you just mentioned can be that thing that just flips a switch from no one knowing you at the school to every single teacher wanting you to come in and support them in their classroom. Right? Yes. And the funny thing is, ironically funny. Is that teachers can be an OT's. Best friend because a lot of what they have in the classroom is what. We have for treatment intervention activities. And they can really help us help the child. Yeah, absolutely. And there's been more and more research, mostly surveys, that have been done by OTD students, a few by also educational doctorate students. But they're finding that teachers want more support from the OTS. They don't want us just to tell them things. They want us to come in and show them, model how we can make some of these strategies work within their classroom. So definitely you used a term a moment ago, and you actually used it talking about the adults, and that term was masking. And I think we're all pretty familiar with what masking means, but it led me to think how some of our students might be masking for their teachers now when it comes to dyslexia, and we'll just kind of key in on the traditional idea of dyslexia. Difficulty with reading. How might students mask their difficulty with reading? Is that a fair question? Yes. And I want to start with something. That'S really missed a lot. You can work with an 8th grader, for example, that is a fluent and beautiful reader, and they can absolutely have dyslexia. And the way you know is they. Can'T remember a thing that they've read. And people don't think about that. But because the student is a people pleaser, super friendly, everyone likes the student. Goes home, spends four times the amount of time they need to on their homework, and has great grades, no one notices. So that's one masking, another one is fatigue. You'll see, students get tired, rub their eyes, fall asleep. The class clown my favorite, probably because. That was me, talked a lot, got in trouble. There's also the child who will be very disruptive. And this is something really important to think about. Maybe we have a child who throws a pencil or kicks the kid next to him or whatever, behavior is a negative behavior. And our first reaction as the adult. Is to stop the behavior and discipline. And I know this might be hard to do, but to take a moment and take a breath and just think. For a second, what were we just asking that child to do? Or what were they doing? If it's tying to something that's really. Hard for them, they made a conscious choice to act in that particular way because being reprimanded was a far better consequence than having to maybe read out loud. Yeah. And when you think about I mean. That just breaks my heart saying it. But when you think about, where is. That student's self concept at that moment? For them to think that that's the. Better option, that's a whole different way. Of dealing with that child than you're going to the principal's office and we're. Sending you home with your mom. So those, I think, are the top ones. It's unfortunate, but it's happening. And I know another aspect of dyslexia that's close to your heart, and it sounds like it's actually what led you to dyslexia. RX is understanding and supporting mental health within our students. And I think what you were just mentioning, right, like, the fear of embarrassment is causing students to potentially mask something else. And so I want to ask you about the ties between dyslexia and mental health. What are you seeing? What trends are you noticing? High prevalence rate in anxiety and depression. It's the chicken and the egg sometimes and suicide ideation. If you take a look at some. Suicide notes, there's significant research where they've. Looked at suicide notes and words have been spelt phonetically. And so the anticipation that this person. Had dyslexia is pretty high. That's what's noted in the research. I've seen children as young as first. Grade tell me they hate school, which is terrifying. I've had children, I had an 8th. Grader once come in and ask me, why am I here? This is just another place that's not. Going to help me. They kind of just give up and feel like they have no control and what's the point? And I think giving them that space to acknowledge their feelings, working with them. On good coping skills, appropriate leisure activities, and that dialogue among the family is huge. And I'm glad you brought up the mental health side of it, because typically when we work with an individual, with dyslexia, we work with one person and. We work with that person on reading. But then we have parents at home. Where one parent totally gets it and the other parent does not. And I've seen this a lot, and it's either the parent there's two sides I've seen to this. I've seen a parent who has been. Very successful, has dyslexia, and just wants their kid to buck up. If I did it, you can grind through it and I've seen horrible, I. Mean, just horrible things. And then I've seen the other parent. Who is very successful, very bright, never. Had a learning disability and just can't. Fathom what the problem is. They just need to work harder. So there's this inability to empathize that. These children are not our mini mes and they are their own personality and yes, we are raising them, but so. Is their environment and they're being bullied. Which falls into the depression and anxiety. They may have younger siblings at home. That are surpassing them. They may have parents saying, why can't you be more like so and so? There are homes where you have children. Who are gifted and talented and you. Will have another child that has dyslexia. Like, I don't envy that parent because. Both are a challenge. And so I really think it just. Goes back to and I keep coming back here, is really looking into that. Lived experience, asking them how they feel. How does it make them feel? How does it make them feel when they're asked to read out loud? How does that make them feel when we ask them to do an activity. That'S hard for them? What do they want to be able to do? Why don't they like this? And some kids are scared to ask their teachers. They get up in the classroom and they go up to the desk and ask their teacher. Their teacher gives them the answer. By the time they go sit down, they forgot again. They go back up, I just told you so. I really believe that we need to be intentional about what we say and how we say it. Because just the smallest thing can be. The difference between a spark or putting. Out the flame in the curiosity of. A child and their willingness to be thirsty to learn. And if we can just cultivate that. Above all, I tell this to parents all the time. Let everybody else do the heavy lifting. No one else can be the parent. Just be that soft place for them to land. And I think if we did that. We came together as a community around that child and we supported them, I. Think we'd see a big difference and. We might be able to end generational poverty and we could put a big dent into Generational Illiteracy and that seeping into adult social justice systems that we. Have to provide support for them. Yeah. Wow. When you think about something, one specific diagnosis of dyslexia, it's hard to fathom all the other impacts that that can have beyond what most people consider to be the difficulty of reading. And I think we've all had that student that you kind of alluded to where they just don't want to come to school. And I have sat in plenty of IEPs where everyone wants to put in place three goals for this student. The speech therapist wants three goals. The teacher wants three goals. The counselor wants three goals. And I've sat there and I've said, this student's having a hard time every day. He's saying, I don't want to come to school. Are we really going to meet twelve goals when the student doesn't even want to be here? Do we need to take a step back and just get the student to actually want to come to school and not cry when they get out of the out of the car? Jason, you bring up a really good point. We've been very tunnel visioned in our. Conversation today on Dyslexia because that's the topic at hand, and I understand that. And you talk about coming to school, and when we think about Dyslexia, we. Need to think about they may have. Parents at home that are illiterate. They may have come from poverty or. Issues of not having access. And so what did it take for. Them to even show up to school? Did they have a good night's sleep? Do they have food? Do they have support at home? I mean, the list goes on and on. And so it goes back to that. Team and bringing community resources together to give them as much support as they. Can and being realistic. I try when I do public speaking. To tell the audience, if really all. You do at the end of the school year is leave this kid in. Good spirits with openness to learn, you've done your job. Yeah, that openness to learn. I know that's not a benchmark on. An IEP, but my gosh, that's the best thing we can do for humanity, for sure. Yeah, I agree. Especially in today's world, if you have that desire to learn, there is the World Wide Web out there, and we don't have to learn everything in school. School is definitely a starting point. Right. It's not the end of our learning. And I think you're right on with that openness to learn. If a child has an openness to learn, once they get that spark of. What they want to learn about, just watch out. Just look out, because they're going to learn everything, whether it be on YouTube, Google, Chat, GPT, something's going to teach them it. So here's the interesting statistic for you. Most entrepreneurs have Dyslexia. I've heard that one before. Yeah, there's research out on that because when you look at somebody who is an entrepreneur on their resume, they will. Have a significant amount of startups sold. Startups sold. And somebody that does not have Dyslexia will typically be somebody who worked for very few companies, but for longer periods of time each. So it's kind of an interesting, fun fact that ties into what you just said. Yeah, we're all different, and we all find the things that tie into our strengths, and I love it. That's awesome. All right, Penny. Well, our conversation today has been such a pleasure, learned so much about Dyslexia, and we have ventured into a little bit more beyond the Dyslexia RX and going into mental health. I really love it. And before we kind of conclude our episode today, I want to kind of let you share what you're doing exactly at Dyslexia RX. I know this is very much a passion project, a passion startup for you, and I want to let you share kind of what you're doing with it and how the OTS who are listening today might be able to get involved. Sure. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. Jason so Dyslexia RX is really taking this telescope and pulling it back and taking a look at the whole family to really support the core of the person who might have Dyslexia. So we have a Dyslexia RX community in which people can join, and this can be therapists, teachers, parents. We do webinars weekly and provide a community of support. We also provide resources where I may have a client come to me. They're not sure if they even have Dyslexia or where to go, and I'll just visit with them for a little bit and try to curate for them. Resources within their community that they can access. So no matter where they are in the United States, they just really don't know where to start. I can help put that together for them. We do in depth screening on executive cognitive functions and set up activities that. Children can do at home or adults, whoever can do at home, in the. Interim between, oh, I'm not sure what to do, and here are community resources that I can directly access, but it. Just provides that gap app and support. And so my vision for our clients at Dyslexia RX is to just address that mental health and that wellness and that family unit. So there's more peace and harmony in the home. Children are excited to go to school. They start enjoying reading, and their journeys in school and their journeys with their teachers are more exciting and enjoyable. Absolutely. That sounds wonderful. And it sounds like you have the skills to do just that, and now you're creating that place to do it. So I really love it. Community is a great place to be, not only to learn, but to be able to find that support that you may need, whether you are a person who has Dyslexia, you know, someone in your personal space who has Dyslexia, or if you're a therapist who is working with clients or with students who has Dyslexia. So that is awesome. Well, Penny, thank you so much. It has been a true pleasure. I really appreciate diving into Dyslexia and all the other places we went today, but definitely Dyslexia. And if you would like to learn more about Dyslexia RX and Penny, we will be sure to share the link to Dyslexia RX to that community where you can learn more in the show notes. So, Penny, thank you so much, and. I really appreciate it. Thank you, Jason. I appreciate being invited. All right. And that is going to wrap up Episode 125 of the OT Schoolhouse Podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in. And remember, if you are a member of the OT Schoolhouse Collaborative, just hop on into the OT Schoolhouse Collaborative community, click on the podcast PD space and take your quiz to earn your certificate of completion. If you're not yet a member and you would like to learn more about it, head on over to Otschoolhouse.com Collab. And I hope to see you in the community very soon. Take care everyone. Have a great week and I will see you next time on the Otschoolhouse Podcast. Thank you for listening to the Otschoolhouse Podcast. For more ways to help you and your students succeed right now, head on over to Otschoolhouse.com. Until next time, class is dismissed.