WEBVTT 00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:15.599 This is our space, this is our time. 00:00:15.839 --> 00:04:50.319 We sitting down with one of Australia's most loved and celebrated country artists, Beccy Cole, with over 30 years in the industry, 11 golden guitars, multiple Aria charting albums, and a reputation for her humor, honesty, and powerhouse storytelling. 00:04:50.319 --> 00:04:54.639 Becky has long been a defining voice in Australia's country music. 00:04:54.639 --> 00:05:00.720 She's now entering a bold new chapter with Through the Haze, her first solo album in seven years. 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:12.959 Recorded on the New South Wales Central Coast and created alongside her closest friends and longtime collaborators, including the Sisters of Twang, the album is raw, diaristic, and deeply personal. 00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:23.439 Beccy explores heartbreak, resilience, therapy, self-discovery, and the humor that has carried her through life, all while delivering the warmth and truth fans adore. 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:43.040 With new singles like The Gardener and the Flower and fan favorites, Shit Magnet, plus a national run-of-tour diets across New South Wales, Queensland, Victoria, and major festivals, Becky is back doing what she loves most, connecting with audiences and telling stories that make people laugh, cry, and feel seen. 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:53.199 Today we talk about the making of the album, the joy of surrendering herself with her favorite people, the upcoming tour, and the life lessons that shaped this new 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:53.439 era. 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:55.759 Welcome, Beccy, to the Lotl Lounge. 00:05:55.759 --> 00:05:58.319 I'm so happy to have you here and to chat with you today. 00:05:58.319 --> 00:05:59.120 Thank you. 00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:00.879 It's lovely to be on this platform with you. 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:08.319 I was so happy to see that you brought out a new EP through the Haze and your touring till the end of the year. 00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:09.600 Got a million questions. 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:16.079 Been very open about your last few years that you've gone through some hardship through the haze. 00:06:16.079 --> 00:06:17.439 The EP came out of it. 00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:19.040 What influenced this EP? 00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:26.399 The album came out in March, and it definitely speaks to the sort of hard time that I had after my marriage breakup. 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:34.000 For me, it's been a definite self-discovery when I thought I knew everything about relationships and how they work and human traits and what have you. 00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:38.720 I've had a lot of broken hearts in my life, but this is the first time I had a broken mind. 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:44.160 And it was basically the rebuilding of me personally was like rebuilding rubble. 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:46.240 And so the songs kind of speak to that. 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:50.240 As you say, I'm in the middle of the tour and I'm so much better mentally. 00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:52.639 My mental health is so much better than it was. 00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:57.759 Perhaps when I was writing some of these songs, some of the songs were written from the wound and some from the scar. 00:06:57.759 --> 00:07:06.000 But I think they were important, certainly for my healing, but now I'm hearing hearing from a lot of people who could relate and can relate to my stories. 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:10.720 Just really love following your journey from 20 years ago, whenever you came out. 00:07:10.959 --> 00:07:18.000 Yeah, I remember when I came out publicly, it was 2012, but I came out to myself at the end of the 90s, actually, 1999. 00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:21.439 I publicly came out on television in 2012. 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:25.040 It hadn't really occurred to me, and it was a part of myself that I kept quiet. 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:31.040 I suppose because I toured regional Australia and it was uncharted territory as far as queer people go. 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:34.639 And I wished that I had done it sooner when I eventually did it. 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:36.240 I was welcomed with open arms. 00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:46.000 You are so straightforward and so honest and so open that after I read your book and that came out what six years ago, eight years ago or something? 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:47.839 20, yeah, twenty twenty fifteen. 00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:51.360 I remember back then I was thinking, oh, poor Becky, seriously. 00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:55.040 Can't you have any more disastrous relationships? 00:07:55.040 --> 00:07:56.000 And oh yes. 00:07:56.000 --> 00:08:08.720 I so felt for you reading the book, and then you were so public after your divorce on social media, and because I follow you, like or Lotl follows you, we see what's going on, and it was like, Jesus Christ. 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:15.120 Most artists that do talk about that one of the best writings or the best work comes through difficult times. 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:17.120 Did you find that with that EP? 00:08:17.439 --> 00:08:22.560 Yeah, I think the best art I think comes from being able to show your vulnerabilities. 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:31.439 It's certainly something that I've always, as an admirer of all forms of art, something that really speaks to me as something that's come from a very emotional place. 00:08:31.439 --> 00:08:36.799 And I think couple that with my age, you're not afraid in your 50s to say it like it is. 00:08:36.799 --> 00:08:42.559 And I've learned so much about myself, but also about humans and about how they work. 00:08:42.559 --> 00:08:47.039 And this is through pretty intense therapy that I've had over the last five years now. 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:49.120 I just think therapists are amazing. 00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:51.360 They speak in song titles, and I keep writing it down. 00:08:51.360 --> 00:08:53.120 And my therapist voice says, What are you writing down? 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:55.840 I said, You're a songwriter, you're an artist, you're incredible. 00:08:55.840 --> 00:09:05.279 And I actually credited her in the liner notes to the album because she taught me so much about when your values don't align with somebody and how it could never work and all that. 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:07.279 I've never studied that before, Silka. 00:09:07.279 --> 00:09:09.279 And it was just the most amazing thing. 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:18.720 And for me to rebuild myself for my mind to work properly and for my to for me to get to know how my heart works and to be pretty proud of that by the end of it was pretty cool as well. 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:21.120 But I had to write these songs to get to that point. 00:09:21.120 --> 00:09:24.320 And that's not to say that the album is full of doom and gloom. 00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:26.240 It's just stepping stones, I think. 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:28.799 And there's a lot of hope on the record as well, I like to think. 00:09:28.799 --> 00:09:34.240 And there's moments of songs about secure attachment as well, the gardener and the flower and other songs like that. 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:36.080 And my trademark humor as well. 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:38.000 My tongue's firmly planted in my cheek. 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:39.519 I've always been able to laugh at myself. 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:41.120 I call myself a shit magnet. 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:42.320 There's a song about that. 00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:46.320 I wanted to ask you about that because that was my next question. 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:49.679 It's like, why would you start an album off with shit magnet? 00:09:49.679 --> 00:09:51.200 What are you trying to say? 00:09:51.200 --> 00:09:53.039 I thought it had to be I love it. 00:09:53.039 --> 00:09:55.039 And you've got stickles even. 00:09:55.279 --> 00:10:03.279 I needed to start the album with humor because it the album is 12 or 13 songs that take the listener on a bit of a roller coaster ride. 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:04.720 So I wanted to start with some humor. 00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:08.159 I formerly described myself as a lesbian. 00:10:08.159 --> 00:10:10.080 I am now a do-not-disturbian. 00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:12.480 And I'm retired from service, Silka. 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:13.039 I'm retired. 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:16.960 So if you ever hear I'm getting married or I'm with another partner, there's something wrong. 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:17.679 It's not true. 00:10:17.919 --> 00:10:22.000 Becky, how hard was it to pick up the guitar again after the breakup? 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:23.039 Almost impossible. 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:29.120 In fact, I ended up spending some time in a facility and I was there for a few months and I didn't even take a guitar. 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:37.039 There happened to be one in this sort of common area, and I picked it up one day and I realized how much I needed music. 00:10:37.039 --> 00:10:46.080 It was actually my ex-husband from a whole lifetime ago who lived not that far, who through my son heard that I would really love to have a guitar, and he dropped it in. 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:52.480 And that was incredible because it was obviously somebody from my past, but somebody who I care deeply about and vice versa. 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:55.679 And he had left a note in with the guitar saying, I love you, Collie. 00:10:55.679 --> 00:10:59.919 And it was just, I needed that note as well as as much as I needed the guitar. 00:10:59.919 --> 00:11:02.960 And I started writing the songs for this record in that. 00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:06.799 And that's why I say that some of them are written from the wound and some from the scar. 00:11:06.799 --> 00:11:14.080 But it took a long time for me to get musical again and to feel worthy enough of getting back into my art. 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:23.679 I also lost my voice, and this is going to sound crazy, but I got my voice back through equine therapy, through singing to the horses in this facility. 00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:25.679 Music is powerful, animals are powerful. 00:11:25.679 --> 00:11:30.559 When you realise the power of music, it's certainly something that got me out of where I was. 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:37.759 And you couple that with animals and their intuition and their hearts and their ability to pick up on how you're feeling. 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:40.320 Animals can do so much for us. 00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:42.240 You've got a new pet, haven't you? 00:11:42.480 --> 00:12:00.320 She's a miniature grudel, and I did some research on therapy pets and therapy animals, and I've always had bigger dogs like a Kelpie or border collies or cross between them, working dogs, and they're full of love, but they're really all about working, which is often when they're not on a farm, it's about the ball, about fetch. 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:02.639 But Patsy is all about love. 00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:05.120 Honestly, it's all the love I've ever needed. 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:10.159 It's helped me to give up my absolute obsession with women that I've had all my life. 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:12.639 I'm just so happy cuddling my Patsy now. 00:12:12.639 --> 00:12:14.480 That's why I'm a do-not-disturbian. 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:17.279 That's why I'm former lesbian, Becky Cole. 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:23.039 I think I'm gonna cut that out of the interview because I need to keep lesbianism alive for my podcast. 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:30.720 You do what you need to do, but yeah, I was pretty girl obsessed for a long time, and now I'm girl sober, and it's probably been the making of me. 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:31.679 I'm girl sober. 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:33.600 Did you just say girl sober? 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:35.120 Okay, all right. 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:36.639 See, where do we go from here? 00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:39.039 Tell me a little bit about the tour, what people can expect. 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:44.159 Been to many of your concerts, and the one that I sorely remember is the one on the Olivia cruise. 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:45.759 You bloody rocked that boat. 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:46.960 That was so amazing. 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:49.039 You'd really have the gift, Becky. 00:12:49.039 --> 00:12:50.240 But what's the new tour like? 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:51.679 Oh, it's so much fun. 00:12:51.679 --> 00:13:01.120 And in fact, that Olivia cruise that you're talking about was when I started really basically playing most of my gigs with an all-female band, and because that's what Olivia asked for. 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:03.440 And I was already starting to head in that direction. 00:13:03.440 --> 00:13:04.320 What do I have to do? 00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:04.960 Learn bass. 00:13:04.960 --> 00:13:05.600 And I said, Yeah. 00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:07.440 So now she's sometimes on bass. 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:11.919 Well, while Ali's on drums, and they are they're an amazing group of women. 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:13.840 Most of them are queer, some of them are not. 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:16.159 We don't discriminate, but so capable. 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:26.879 And the empowerment, not only being on stage, but getting to tour with them and what we give each other in this world of music and art in general is just so incredibly special. 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:33.919 And I rely on them a lot too for my female company because obviously I come home and I'm here by the river in South Australia with Patsy. 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:38.639 And then I get to go away with seven or eight amazing women, and some of them bring their partners. 00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:46.320 So we've got photographers and merch sellers, and we sit around after the shows, and I've got so much clarity these days because I don't drink alcohol anymore either. 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:49.440 So I can remember everything, which is amazing. 00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:52.000 So I'm girl sober and I'm actually alcohol sober. 00:13:52.159 --> 00:13:56.480 Oh, Jesus, so funny in that I can see it. 00:13:56.480 --> 00:13:59.679 You look amazing and you're and cheese through the screens. 00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:01.519 It's really good, positive. 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:02.320 That's nice. 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:02.639 Yeah. 00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:08.720 I honestly believe if you're trying to heal yourself from any trauma, you can't do that unless you're sober. 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:16.960 Otherwise, you're just doing it in increments that and you keep on going backwards when you don't have that clarity of mind that sobriety gives you. 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:19.360 And it doesn't mean that you have to be completely sober. 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:20.720 And I'm never saying never. 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:24.799 And at some point I might have a glass at some function or something. 00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:27.200 But so far, it's working for me right now. 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:35.600 And I've done all of the things that I never thought that I could do sober, like funerals and wakes, sitting around after shows is one of my favorite things to do. 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:38.080 And the girls, some of them are drinking, some of them are doing other stuff. 00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:38.960 So it's all cool. 00:14:38.960 --> 00:14:40.960 Whatever works is totally fine. 00:14:40.960 --> 00:14:44.799 And I'm very happy to be in their company and I feel safe. 00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:48.159 I don't feel pressured to be anything other than what I am in that moment. 00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:49.840 Got to make a conscious decision. 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:51.360 Bigger health comes first. 00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:52.639 I totally agree with you. 00:14:52.639 --> 00:15:06.159 And that's another reason I mentioned that I've been to funerals of friends, and I started to think about that as well that I was losing some dear people around that age of 70, where they should be with us for another 10 or 20 years, and they were big drinkers. 00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:12.080 My mum is 82 and just incredible and has never had a drop of alcohol in her life. 00:15:12.080 --> 00:15:14.879 So I used to joke that I'd have to have her share. 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:19.759 But yeah, the reality is she's 82, and she had her mum right up until three years ago. 00:15:19.759 --> 00:15:22.960 We lost grandma, and grandma was almost 104. 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:24.799 Again, wasn't a big drinker. 00:15:24.799 --> 00:15:28.960 She'd occasionally have a little bubbles with me, and her nose would go red and she'd start telling the truth. 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:31.600 And mum would go, Oh, don't say anything, mum. 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:32.639 Oh, that's funny. 00:15:32.639 --> 00:15:36.720 I thought you would, I was hoping you would say how she liked one whiskey a day. 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:42.799 Yeah, she no, she'd have a little drink with me every now and then because I'd sneak in a little piccolo of bubbles or something like that. 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:44.960 And mum would go, She can't have that, she can't have that. 00:15:44.960 --> 00:15:46.399 And I'd go, Oh, let her go. 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:51.840 And believe me, if I'm still here at 103, I think I'll probably be enjoying a bubbles with my grand something too. 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:55.039 But life's a journey and whatever works for any individual person. 00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:58.879 Back to the EP, which by the way, I really am enjoying. 00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:03.039 It's on my playlist, and we're going to put it on the little lounge playlist as well, of course. 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:06.720 We will put all the tour details in our show notes. 00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:10.639 You've given us two songs to play on the podcast, Garden and the Flower. 00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:14.320 Can you just give us a quick overview of what that song is all about? 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:21.759 The idea came to me when I was listening to a podcast between Kate Langbrook, who I love in podcast form, and Rosie O'Donnell. 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:26.000 Rosie is famously single as well, and I align myself with her a lot. 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:28.960 She's one of the most amazing daikons that we have. 00:16:28.960 --> 00:16:36.159 When she spoke about how she worked out in a relationship for relationship to work, one has to be the gardener and the other the flower. 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:40.240 And the most important part about that is that you have to learn to be able to swap roles. 00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:48.480 And that makes so much sense to me, Silka, in a relationship where somebody is always the gardener, providing nourishment and helping out the other person. 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:55.120 And when it's never flipped the other way, then you're going to start to have problems eventually, even though you go, No, I'm fine, I'm fine. 00:16:55.120 --> 00:17:00.240 When somebody is not nurtured in the same way, it's going to become uneven at some point. 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:08.880 And when you're in that early honeymoon period that can last sometimes for five or six years, it's all great, it's all grand, but it's the same as the values not aligning. 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:09.759 It's not going to work. 00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:13.920 So that is what I would call a secure attachment song on the record. 00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:18.640 And it is a point when I was away writing, I was up the river at my brother's shack. 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:22.000 I would only allow myself to listen to music because that's what inspires me. 00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:25.519 And I thought, oh, I'll listen to one podcast because I love podcasts. 00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:30.400 So I ran myself a bath and I'm in the bath listening to Rosie O'Donnell talking about the gardener and the flower. 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:32.720 And I'm trying to get out, going, There's a song, there's a song. 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:36.000 And I'm I'm slipping and sliding and I'm bruising myself. 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:42.960 And I'm I've got the original bit of paper, it's still got blotches on it from when I was still dripping, writing down you be the gardener, I'll be the flower. 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:47.920 For me, the song wrote itself, and I was in writing mode, I was in that waiting for inspiration. 00:17:47.920 --> 00:17:51.839 I always wait for the songwriting fairy to tap my shoulder and go, here it is, here it is. 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:54.240 It was through the medium of Rosie O'Donnell. 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:55.279 So I was very pleased. 00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:59.519 Do you actually think that applies to both type of relationships? 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:01.440 Women to women and men and women? 00:18:01.599 --> 00:18:08.960 Yeah, I think it's a racial song, although this is probably the whole album as a whole has probably been the most gender-specific that I've ever been. 00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:11.920 I'm more out and proud than I ever was, even when I first came out. 00:18:11.920 --> 00:18:12.960 It was such a relief. 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:19.119 But at the same time, I think you you become more satisfied and happy within yourself as you get older. 00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:25.839 There used to be certain situations on stage where I wouldn't mention it if I was in a certain venue that I didn't think could handle it. 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:30.319 But now I'm just, you have to handle because you've bought a ticket to see a lesbian. 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:32.400 So I'm going to talk about it basically. 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:34.480 I did want to ask you one last thing. 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:38.640 I saw you posted a photo of you and Dolly Parton just after she passed away. 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:43.359 You met her when you were younger, and then you met her again when you were an established artist. 00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:53.200 Yeah, three, three times along 1986, 2011, and 2017, I think, the three times that I met her. 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:57.519 And when I was a little girl, I had 286 pictures of Dolly on my wall. 00:18:57.519 --> 00:19:02.160 Up until that when I was 13, and in that photo of Dolly, and I've got a mullet. 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:03.279 It was 1986. 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:09.119 And I felt like that day she waved a wand over me because she said to me, What do you want to do? 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:10.319 And I said, I want to be a singer. 00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:11.680 And she said, What songs do you sing? 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:12.880 And I said, Yours. 00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:16.079 And she called me her namesake because her middle name was Rebecca. 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:23.680 And I never modelled myself on Dolly, per se, as far as an actual performer goes, but I modelled my behaviors on her. 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:28.960 It was always what would Dolly do, and just her heart and her generosity that everybody got to know. 00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:35.279 Because I it's something that I felt like I knew at three years old, listening to Code of Many Colours and me and Little Andy and all of her songs. 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:40.400 And I just knew that she was just this larger than life, more generous than anybody. 00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:49.680 And I think it's proof in the last couple of weeks since she died that everybody is remembering her philanthropy and her humanitarianism and things that she gave the world. 00:19:49.680 --> 00:20:00.000 Try and think of anybody else who could bring people together from all sides politics and the spectrum of whether it be religion or sexuality, who else could bring them together like Dolly? 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:01.440 Nobody is the answer. 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:03.519 And we've lost a really big one. 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:07.279 And she lives on inside those of us who loved so brilliantly. 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:11.920 And I've got my 1979 Dolly Parton pinball machine just behind me here. 00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:14.960 And I've got my, I've still got my side over there. 00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:21.440 There's no other way to say it other than I feel like she waved her wand on me in those 1986. 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:24.960 And I've been better for it whenever I follow her teachings. 00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:26.720 Like she's Jesus. 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:30.880 When I follow the teachings of Dolly Parton, I'm a better person, right? 00:20:31.759 --> 00:20:32.960 Becky, thank you so much. 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:35.680 We've taken up a lot of your time now. 00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:36.720 I really appreciate it. 00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:38.160 It was lovely talking to you. 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:46.799 And as I said, we'll put everything in the show notes so the listener can check out where you are performing next and also to download your new album. 00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:47.599 Thanks, Silka. 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:49.119 Lovely to chat to you. 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:58.640 Lay down your bird and sing in me. 00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:04.000 I've got your back, little Hercules. 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:08.960 You've got somebody you can lead upon. 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:20.799 I love to see you smile. 00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:26.799 Let me just take care of you. 00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:31.680 Love you the time. 00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:34.960 You be the time. 00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:36.319 Today we are exploring a remarkable and often overlooked chapter of Australian queer history. 00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:52.799 It's the story of Sandra Wilson, a lesbian woman who spent 18 years behind bars despite never being convicted of a crime, and the extraordinary coalition of feminists, gay liberation, and prison reform activists who fought to secure her freedom. 00:24:52.799 --> 00:25:07.279 In her latest article for LOL, historian and researcher Thomson Martin examines how discrimination, institutionalization, and the legal system shaped Santa's life and how grassroots activists refused to let her disappear. 00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:15.279 From public rituals and protest actions to the intersection of lesbian, feminist, and prison abolition politics in the 70s. 00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:17.759 It's a story that still resonates today. 00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:24.799 Tempson joins us now to discuss the campaign to free Sandra Wilson and what it reveals about Australians' queer past. 00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:28.480 Tempson, thank you for joining us on The Lot Lounge. 00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:31.920 We are talking about Sandra Wilson. 00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:36.799 She was one of the longest-serving female prisoners around the 60s. 00:25:36.799 --> 00:25:40.480 Do you want to introduce her to us to start off with? 00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:47.519 Sandra Wilson, she was a lesbian who was the longest-serving female prisoner in New South Wales, serving a total of 18 years. 00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:55.839 And the reason why she comes up in the history of lesbian activism is the reason she was in jail was because she was a lesbian. 00:25:55.839 --> 00:26:05.359 She ended up at the hands of the legal system thanks to being discriminated against over her sexuality throughout her entire adolescence and young adult life. 00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:12.000 And when she was in prison, had she denounced her sexuality, the likelihood of her being released would have been much, much higher. 00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:19.839 So the fact that she was still an outspoken lesbian after all these years incarcerated was one of the things that was contributing to her still being held. 00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:23.440 Did you find there was a lot of information about her? 00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:27.839 Do you think she should be, or her case should be more known? 00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:29.839 I would love for her to be more well known. 00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:32.079 I don't think she is particularly well known. 00:26:32.079 --> 00:26:40.400 Before me including her story in my master's thesis last year, there's really only been one historian who's looked at her before, and that's Dr. 00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:41.119 Rebecca Jennings. 00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:51.680 And Sandra's really unique in that not only did she have this life experience, but also while she was incarcerated, she wrote many, many drafts of her memoir that was eventually edited and released after her death. 00:26:51.680 --> 00:27:06.960 So she's unique in that she's got this really detailed memoir of life as a lesbian in the 50s, in the 60s, in the 70s, including that time period where she's incarcerated and what the prison experience was like for mentally ill and queer people. 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:09.519 Wow, that would be super interesting to read. 00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:15.359 And also, I did see she was actually an advisor on the TV series Prisoner. 00:27:15.519 --> 00:27:22.079 Yeah, I think that's a really amazing thing where as soon as she gets out, she's working in feminist, gay, and prison reform activism. 00:27:22.079 --> 00:27:25.680 And part of that prison reform activism is she was asked to be an advisor on that show. 00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:32.319 Once you start reading into her story, so what happened was in the 60s, she was a young lesbian. 00:27:32.319 --> 00:27:37.279 She was living with her girlfriend and she was taken into a girl's home. 00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:39.680 Can you give us a timeline what happened? 00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:46.960 When she was about 13, she was sent to a psychiatrist after it was noticed that she had a bit of a crush on one of her teachers at school. 00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:50.319 I think is a pretty common experience for a lot of 13-year-old lesbians. 00:27:50.319 --> 00:27:53.200 Not many of us are sent to psychiatrists about that anymore. 00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:56.319 So she spent some time in a psychiatric facility after that. 00:27:56.319 --> 00:27:59.200 Towards her late teens, I believe she was about 17. 00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:02.079 She was living in a flat in Bondi with a girlfriend. 00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:05.599 And she considered that relationship, they were husband and wife. 00:28:05.599 --> 00:28:09.440 And they were sending letters to a friend where they referred to each other as husband and wife. 00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:12.240 And that friend's mother took those letters to the police. 00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:20.079 And the police came and knocked on the door, came to look at the way that they were living, noticed that only one bed was being slept in and arrested them for it. 00:28:20.079 --> 00:28:26.160 Despite the fact that on a technicality, being a lesbian wasn't illegal, it was still very much persecuted again. 00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:32.480 So because Sandra was the older of the two, she was sent to Paramatic Girls' home, which was rife with abuse. 00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:36.160 So then she underwent aversion therapy, specifically because of her sexuality. 00:28:36.160 --> 00:28:46.720 So throughout her entire adolescent and young adult life, she's in and out of psychiatric facilities and undergoing aversion therapy and being discriminated against because of her sexuality. 00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:54.160 Then in 1959, she's inspired to train to become a psychiatric nurse because of all those years in those facilities. 00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:58.799 And while she's in, while she's doing that training, she starts getting a fellow trainee nurse. 00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:06.160 And one of the older staff notices this relationship, goes to her partner, and convinces her partner that relationships immoral. 00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:10.319 She breaks up with Sandra and specifically uses the words, I can never see you again. 00:29:10.319 --> 00:29:13.200 And at that point, Sandra describes that she essentially broke. 00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:16.720 She wanted to kill herself because she realized that society wouldn't mourn her. 00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:25.359 Thought process at the time was that if she takes, quote, one of them, then society would make you reflect and feel sorry for discriminating against her. 00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:29.839 Her crime was she went out, ended up killing a taxi driver. 00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:31.119 She handed herself in. 00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:38.160 Yes, she escaped on foot, handed herself in a couple days later after consulting with one of her doctors, telling her what had happened, and they went in together. 00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:40.720 She ended up in prison, not being convicted. 00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:44.240 Yeah, so basically what happened was so 1959, this happened. 00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:45.920 She hands herself in a couple days later. 00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:48.640 While she's being held for trial, she tries to end her life. 00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:54.240 She's unsuccessful, but that causes the trial to be pushed back by a year until they declare her fit to stand. 00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:56.400 So she spends a year in a psychiatric facility. 00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:03.359 Then in 1960, she's found not guilty due to insanity after a single doctor's testimony about her mental state. 00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:06.960 So the sentence she's given is a governor's pleasure sentence. 00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:14.559 The idea of that is that you're to be held at the governor's pleasure, at the state's pleasure, until you're declared sane and no longer a danger. 00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:27.519 So in 1971, after an escape attempt from the psychiatric facility where she wanted to mail off a copy of her memoir to a publisher, she's declared sane because the idea is she didn't escape to go and commit another crime. 00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:36.400 She actually escaped with quite a rational plan to send off this memoir after one of the staff at the psychiatric facility had been constantly threatening to take it away from her. 00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:39.599 So because of the sort of lucidity around that plan, she's considered sane. 00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:44.480 But instead of being released, which is what should have happened, she was then transferred over to Malawa Women's Prison. 00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:48.559 And then she's there for another five years before the campaign discovers her. 00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:58.000 Back then, so it was a very, very different landscape, but it was the 70s, and there was activism was rife out there. 00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:00.480 We're talking about early gay activism. 00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:12.480 Let's reintroduce Camp as an example, and also an organization called Women Behind Bars got to learn about Sandra's story and took it on as a campaign-free Sandra Wilson. 00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:14.559 What was that collaboration like? 00:31:14.559 --> 00:31:20.400 How did those two organizations work together and what did they achieve at the end? 00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:23.039 Yeah, so it starts with Women Behind Bars. 00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:27.759 They're a feminist organization made up of women who had experienced incarceration. 00:31:27.759 --> 00:31:39.359 One of the founding members is Wendy Bacon, who had been sent to Malwa earlier in the 1970s after being charged for publishing the poem Cunt as a Christian Word in the UNSW newsletter Thoranka. 00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:49.039 There was some early collaboration between Camp and her, I believe it was 71 or 72, they were supporting her after being charged for obscenity. 00:31:49.039 --> 00:32:00.240 But whilst she's in prison, and while a couple of other activists are in prison, they're seeing the conditions of Mullawa and they've become inspired to try and fight for change in the casserole system. 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:09.200 So then in 1976, some members meet Sandra while she's in there and they realize that she's been held for so long on a charge that doesn't really stand up. 00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:14.400 Their view is she's being held illegally because when she was declared saying she should have been released and she hasn't been. 00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:19.359 So the slogan of this campaign is not guilty, not insane, not insane, not guilty. 00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:29.519 So the idea is while they have a much bigger investment into reshaping the castoral system, ultimately they want the depopulation and closure of women's prisons. 00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:33.680 But in the short term, they want to improve conditions in those prisons. 00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:40.799 They found Sandra, who's a really key example of someone who's being held illegal, whose treatment is completely immoral. 00:32:40.799 --> 00:32:46.160 So they want to rally around her in the hopes that they can win this shorter term goal. 00:32:46.640 --> 00:32:49.440 How long did that campaign go for? 00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:54.319 Eventually, they were successful with the campaign and Sandra walked free. 00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:55.200 When was that? 00:32:55.519 --> 00:33:06.319 Yeah, so we've been behind bars with a couple of protests in 1976 that had some support from Camp and also from the New South Wales Gay and Lesbian Socialist Group. 00:33:06.319 --> 00:33:11.680 And then in November of 1976, Camp run their tribunal, which I'm sure we'll get to in a second. 00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:14.160 And then through February of 1977. 00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:20.720 So from the 1st of February, for 16 days, we have this vigil that women behind bars run, which has a consistent camp presence there as well. 00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:22.799 There's always people from camp there supporting it. 00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:29.599 That's 16 days of 24-7 demonstrating in Triflies Square, which is right where the officers of the Department of Corrections were. 00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:33.599 So while their letters to the Department of Corrections are being ignored, their physical presence couldn't be. 00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:44.240 So after that 16 days, they allow Sanders to become partially released, where she's allowed to live with a friend in a house on the prison yard. 00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:46.480 She may be allowed out for a day, that thing. 00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:49.119 But she's really restricted in what visitors she's allowed. 00:33:49.119 --> 00:33:53.279 She's allowed to see her aunt, her doctor, and that's about it. 00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:58.799 The women from Women Behind Bars who were allowed to visit her while she was actually in prison, they're no longer allowed to see her. 00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:01.599 And it's quite limited with what contacts are allowed with her. 00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:06.960 And then in October of 1977, so February through October, she's in this half-released state. 00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:13.840 In October, she's finally fully released, where the women from Women Behind Bars immediately help her get housing and employment and set her up. 00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:18.000 And as soon as she came out, she turned into an activist herself, hasn't she? 00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:23.840 She started this halfway house for women prisoners after they leave prison. 00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:27.360 And she was quite active in that space till she died. 00:34:27.599 --> 00:34:28.239 Yeah, absolutely. 00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:33.199 So she's interviewed a year after her release by campaign for the gay newspaper. 00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:42.800 And she's talking about how invested she is in gay and feminist activism and how she thinks that men and women working together in the gay movement is a really important strategy. 00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:45.840 And yes, so she's involved in prison reform activism. 00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:49.280 So she joins Women Behind Bars and this other group called the prisoner action group. 00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:53.920 And she opens Guthrie House in the 80s, and that's still open today. 00:34:53.920 --> 00:35:02.239 They have a really strong focus in supporting women with substance abuse issues and also indigenous women. 00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:05.920 So it's still a really, really important institution that she set up. 00:35:06.159 --> 00:35:06.960 What a life. 00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:08.880 And she's written a memoir. 00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:13.280 It's called Between Me and Myself: A Memoir of Murder, Desire and the Struggle to Be Free. 00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:14.559 So it was edited by Dr. 00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:15.360 Rebecca Jennings. 00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:18.559 Came out, I want to say 2022. 00:35:18.559 --> 00:35:19.920 So quite a recent release. 00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:23.519 You've obviously read it, I assume, for writing the article. 00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:25.199 Was it a fascinating read? 00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:26.800 Or yeah, absolutely. 00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:33.039 It's really a story of what terrible ways discrimination of such a caliber can affect your life. 00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:40.239 She ended up retiring in the 90s and moving up to Queensland to live a much more quiet life. 00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:43.519 While she was in prison, she became quite spiritual up in Queensland. 00:35:43.519 --> 00:35:49.039 I believe she connected with a local church and got quite invested in that towards the end of her life. 00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:53.199 And then she continued working on the memoir as well throughout this entire time. 00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:55.519 And then she passed away in 1999. 00:35:55.519 --> 00:35:58.079 And in about 2009, I believe, Dr. 00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:05.599 Jennings came across Sandra's papers and was able to eventually edit together this memoir. 00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:06.559 Amazing. 00:36:06.559 --> 00:36:12.079 And you decided to write an article for Lottel and to bring her story alive. 00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:13.199 Yeah, absolutely. 00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:34.880 I came across her in the last year writing my thesis, and I just thought this is such a fascinating look into how different groups can rally around one person and also how that one person's life can be so profoundly affected by discrimination and why working towards anti-discrimination laws and create a societal acceptance of queerness is such an important thing. 00:36:35.199 --> 00:36:36.480 Tamson, thank you again. 00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:37.840 Appreciate your time. 00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:38.800 Yeah, of course. 00:36:38.800 --> 00:36:40.239 Glad to talk about it. 00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:46.239 My thanks to Temps and Martin for joining us and for bringing this important story to a wider audience. 00:36:46.239 --> 00:37:01.280 Sandra Wilson's life sits in the intersection of queer history, prison reform, feminism, and mental health, reminding us how easily people can be failed by institutions and how powerful collective actions can be in a challenging injustice. 00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:09.199 You can read Tempson's article, Free Sandra Wilson, at laurel.com and explore more of her work on Australian, lesbian and queer history. 00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:17.039 Next up, League from the Lounge with Joe Barrett. 00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:02.639 Welcome to the Drag King Corner Audio Edition. 00:47:02.639 --> 00:47:09.360 We have the incredible guest for your listening pleasure, the immensely talented, powerful, and quite frankly genius artist Emmanuel Mentana. 00:47:09.360 --> 00:47:10.159 Hello, Emmanuel. 00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:11.039 It's lovely to have you. 00:47:11.039 --> 00:47:15.119 Hi, it's lovely to be here, but those are those are way too nice things to say about me. 00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:17.519 Maggie, we're heard some big news recently. 00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:19.119 Would you like to share it with our listeners? 00:47:19.360 --> 00:47:31.679 Yeah, so a production of my play Trophy Boys, which is a sort of homegrown Aussie drag king theater piece, is going international, and we actually have our first translated season, which is happening in Seoul in South Korea. 00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:36.079 So we'll be opening in November if anyone wants to see a production in another language, which will be pretty wild. 00:47:36.320 --> 00:47:37.119 That is fantastic. 00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:38.000 Congratulations. 00:47:38.239 --> 00:47:38.480 Thank you. 00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:43.039 Do you have the hand on the role with that production, or you just get to spawn in on Overty Night? 00:47:43.199 --> 00:47:52.239 Well, that's the that's the fun thing, is they said to me when they were translating the script that I could get final approval, and I'm not sure how I can approve a script that I can't understand. 00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:56.079