WEBVTT 00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:15.519 This is our space, this is our time. 00:00:15.839 --> 00:00:31.440 LOT Lounge where we always And welcome to another episode of The Lot Lounge. 00:00:31.519 --> 00:00:39.520 I'm your host, Silke, and today we are celebrating the stories, voices, and creativity of our incredible community. 00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:46.159 We are joined by Madeline Gray, author of the best-selling Green Dot, and her new novel, Chosen Family. 00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:53.840 She's also appearing at this year's Sydney Rider Festival, where she'll be part of a conversation on queer romance and queer Sydney. 00:00:54.079 --> 00:01:02.079 You also hear from Lenny and Nina, two women navigating the complexities of a long-distance relationship between Sweden and South Africa. 00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:08.799 Their story of connection, heartbreak, and an unexpected turn that tested and revealed their resilience. 00:01:09.040 --> 00:01:19.200 We're featuring new music from Australian singer and songwriter Holly Thorsby, whose thoughtful, distinctive sound continues to captivate audiences nationwide. 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:22.000 Later, Nash Hall sits down with Dr. 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:28.000 Karen Tristel, the academic who has spent more than a decade researching track king culture. 00:01:28.159 --> 00:01:35.120 If you ever wanted to understand this vibrant and often overlooked community, this conversation is essential listening. 00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:43.120 And for our history segment, I chat with Robin McCoy, who runs some of Sydney's earliest lesbian nightclubs. 00:01:43.359 --> 00:01:51.519 She takes us back to the thriving lesbian nightlife of the 80s and 90s, a time and place that shape our generations. 00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:59.439 And yes, the Tuck Shop ladies are back for one more visit before they head off on tour, bringing their trademark charm and cheek. 00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:06.560 Plus, we check in with Joe Barrett for the final NILW update for the season of Leaks on the Lounge. 00:02:06.799 --> 00:02:13.280 This is community media at its best, homegrown stories, local voices, and conversations that matter. 00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:17.360 Share this episode with someone who'd love a little community chatter. 00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:27.919 And before we dive, in a quick note, we're working with an independent research and analytics team to better understand how you, our listeners, engage with the podcast. 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:34.240 Many of you have already completed our two-minute survey and we are so grateful for your feedback. 00:02:34.479 --> 00:02:38.560 If you still like to contribute, the survey will remain open for a few more days. 00:02:38.639 --> 00:02:40.560 You'll find a link in the show notes. 00:02:40.719 --> 00:02:44.800 And from next week, we're launching an exclusive bonus content. 00:02:45.039 --> 00:02:53.520 One of the best ways to support Lotel Lounge is by becoming a member and sharing the podcast with your friends, family, and community. 00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:55.280 Let's get started. 00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:04.479 Madeline Gray is the author of the best-selling novel Green Dot and the recently released Chosen Family. 00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:12.400 She's also appearing at this year's Sydney Writers Festival, where she will be taking part in conversations about queer romance and queer Sydney. 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:14.240 Madeline, thanks for joining us today. 00:03:14.560 --> 00:03:15.199 Thank you so much. 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:16.639 I'm very excited to be here. 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:23.439 As you know, Silka, my first job after university was working as a journalist at Lesbians on when it was a film magazine. 00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:25.680 So this is a very nice full circle moment. 00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:30.800 I was so happy to see your name pop up and it put a big smile on my face. 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:34.400 It was an internship that you started with Slotl, wasn't it? 00:03:34.639 --> 00:03:36.080 Yes, I did start with an internship, yes. 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:51.280 Yeah, I don't want to fight my own boat too much, Silka, but they've done pretty they've done pretty well. 00:03:51.439 --> 00:04:03.199 My first book, Green Dot, which came out at the end of 2023, was about a 24-year-old bisexual woman, Hera, who works as a comment moderator at a news website in Sydney. 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:05.520 And she's very existentially bereft and bored. 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:12.960 She's only ever dated women before, but her job is so boring that just for something to do, she starts sleeping with her married male boss. 00:04:13.199 --> 00:04:15.680 And unfortunately, she falls in love with him. 00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:20.800 And then the second novel, Chosen Family, is I call it my big gay book. 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:23.839 I'm sure I'll write more big gay books, but this is a very big gay book. 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:30.800 It's about the family you make when your biological family perhaps hasn't given you the emotional sustenance you need. 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:37.120 So as a clear person, I've certainly created my own chosen family with friends and in community that have given me what I need. 00:04:37.199 --> 00:04:42.319 And it's about two girls, even Nell, who meet when they're in high school and they form a really intense friendship. 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:50.560 And there's that closeness that borders between the eroshit and the platonic, where you don't know if they want to be with each other or be each other. 00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:59.759 And the book follows them over 18 years in Sydney as they love and destroy each other, raise a child together, discipline each other, and all the vicissitudes of modern life. 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:05.519 I'm always very curious to understand how authors develop their character. 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:10.399 Do you see people in day-to-day lives and think, oh, this could be a great character in one of my books? 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:12.480 Yes, I absolutely steal from everyday life. 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:18.079 And if I'm sitting next to you at a cafe and overhear your conversation, I'll definitely write it down and steal it. 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:25.279 But for the first book, I think that people say this about first novels, that it's often the story the writer has wanted to write their whole life. 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:31.920 So I will admit to some biographical similarities between myself and the protagonist, Hera, in the sense that I was that age. 00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:37.040 I have worked in the news industry, and I have felt very existentially bereft in a boring job. 00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:59.360 And with Chosen Family, it really was more of a communal effort in the sense that book was the culmination of so many conversations I'd had with my own female and non-binary friends who are in their asserties, who want to have children, but who don't necessarily want to have them in a heterosexual or even homosexual relationship, but they don't also want a single parent. 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:06.079 So we're thinking about how the ways that you could have a baby that would be more communal and have more of a queer utopian outlook. 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:13.199 I just interviewed a band member the other day, and their newest AP their release was Chosen Family. 00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:13.680 Really? 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:16.560 Yeah, within our community, it's not a new word. 00:06:16.800 --> 00:06:18.000 No, it's not a new word. 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:22.959 It was definitely a bold move for me to name a book Chosen Family, because it's a phrase that belongs to the whole community. 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:26.879 So I hope that readers can take it with a sense of humor it was supposed to be delivered. 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:31.120 You are drawn naturally to write queer fiction? 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:36.480 The way I write, it very much stemmed from me working in academia for a long time. 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:45.680 So I did my undergrad at UCID, I did my master's in English literature at Oxford, and then I did a PhD in feminist literary theory from the University of Manchester. 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:53.360 So for a long time I had been writing in very academic discourse that was very difficult for the average punter to understand. 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:56.399 It takes simple concepts and it makes language impenetrable. 00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:06.319 And so what I want to do with my fiction is hopefully take very complex ideological concerns and then transmute them into something that is extensively readable. 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:08.480 I want my readers to have a really good time. 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:12.639 I want them to think, but I don't want them to have to suffer as they read. 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:14.000 That's an interesting concept. 00:07:14.079 --> 00:07:15.600 That you're making me so curious. 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:18.000 I might pick up one of your books now. 00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:19.920 Go ahead. 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:20.480 Oh. 00:07:20.639 --> 00:07:24.240 And Madeline, what do you do at the Writers Festival that's coming up? 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:28.000 So yeah, I have been working with the Writers Festival for many years now. 00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:32.560 Once again, like with Luddle, when I was at university, I used to volunteer with Sydney Writers Festival. 00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:33.759 I love the Writers Festival. 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:45.040 What they're doing now is a new program called Homegrown, which is looking at Australian writers specifically, which is so exciting because we have so many brilliant Australian writers that don't get enough of the time of day. 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:48.800 And so it's a collaboration with the State Library of New South Wales. 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:49.360 You know what? 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:51.360 I do love localized content. 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:52.720 Yeah, it's so neat. 00:07:53.199 --> 00:08:00.639 I remember probably back when I started working with you, I went through the bookshop in Darling House, which is sadly closed down now, the queer bookshop on Oxford Street. 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:04.319 And I went to Graham, who works there at the time, and I said, Graham, I'm 18. 00:08:04.399 --> 00:08:07.600 I think I'm probably lesbian, but I don't know anything about gay books. 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:08.480 Can you help me? 00:08:08.720 --> 00:08:16.879 And he went around the store and found books for me for and it was the books that were set in Australia that really were the helpful things for me because I could see myself in them. 00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:17.920 Well, you know what? 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:23.439 Around 20 years ago, those women who felt that way, they went to the feminist bookshop. 00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:24.240 Yeah, yeah. 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:28.240 And I think the feminist bookshop would have closed down at the time you went to the bookshop. 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:29.920 Yeah, where was the feminist bookshop? 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:30.879 In Lillefield. 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:31.439 Really? 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:33.440 That used to be a feminist bookshop. 00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:36.480 And then the sisters, all three sisters, they're gay. 00:08:36.559 --> 00:08:38.080 They bought it 40 years ago. 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:40.799 It was the place to go. 00:08:40.960 --> 00:08:43.600 Yeah, the place to pick up your lotless gale. 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:49.840 She talked about how parents came in with their 16, 17-year-old daughter and saying, Can you help us? 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:51.919 We're, you know, what books can we read? 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:53.600 That's so cool. 00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:54.960 Oh my goodness. 00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:56.159 Oh, I love that. 00:08:56.320 --> 00:09:00.879 I've been researching so in reading a lot about the feminist magazines at the time in the UK. 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:02.399 I hadn't quite connected the four. 00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:07.279 That the spare rib people basically started Virago, which is the feminist press in the UK. 00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:08.960 So, and that press still exists today. 00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:12.799 And it was started by just grassroots feminists who had a feminist magazine. 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:17.360 Just the world's full of these excellent contributions that sometimes are very untold. 00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:28.879 I'm looking at the idea of feminist celebrity and the way that we sometimes put some feminist celebrities on a pedestal and forget that they are people, not just icons. 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:37.600 Madeline, we put all the information in the show notes for people to find you and also the information about the Sydney Writers Festival. 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:42.639 Thank you so much for joining us today and for chatting with us. 00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:45.600 One last question before we go. 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:47.679 I am putting you on the spot. 00:09:47.919 --> 00:09:51.519 Would you know the passage you would be reading for us? 00:09:51.759 --> 00:10:03.200 I think I'll be the bit of a passage from early on in the novel, In Chosen Family, where there's two girls, Eva and Nell, and they are lining up to go for a swimming lesson at school and they are comparing Peter Care. 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:04.720 Fantastic, Kant. 00:10:04.879 --> 00:10:06.320 Wait to listen to it. 00:10:06.559 --> 00:10:07.840 Thank you again, Madeline. 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:08.879 Thank you, Silk. 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:19.440 12:15 p.m., the school's pool changing room is vibrating with the high-pitched screams of the girls, the smell of chlorine, and the texture of wet band-aids on soaked concrete. 00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:27.600 It's easy to see which of the girls have already learnt to hate their bodies, and which is still happily ensconced in the unblushing shamelessness of being 12 years old. 00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:32.559 Georgia Smith, for example, is uncomfortable in her body, but she's on the fringes of a popular group. 00:10:32.639 --> 00:10:34.480 She must feign nonchalance. 00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:40.000 Part of being popular is projecting body confidence and making other people feel bad. 00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:48.480 Nervously trying to get into her new bathing suit without displaying her burgeoning pubic hair to the mob of preteen girls, Eve is firmly on the ashamed team. 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:51.440 In reality, her build is average, but she's sure she's fat. 00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:54.240 She also has very short hair, which she personally likes. 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:59.679 It feels cleaner this way, but she understands that others construe this as evidence of her being a freak. 00:10:59.840 --> 00:11:04.399 Even the hairdresser at Just Cuts was visibly taken aback when Eve requested the chop. 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:09.759 Eve takes off her uniform and places it on a wooden bench that skirts the periphery of the changing room. 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:18.799 She evades eye contact with the others as she slides her one piece up over her undies and then awkwardly pulls her undies off one leg at a time under her swimmers. 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:23.360 She tries to avoid the inevitable camel toe that accompanies this, but fails. 00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:30.879 When her undies are off, she quickly rearranges her costume and then glances around to make sure no one has observed her prudishness. 00:11:31.279 --> 00:11:33.519 Thankfully, nobody is looking at her. 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:38.720 She has gotten through the first trial of PE, except that she has not. 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:45.440 Because sitting at the back of the changing room already in her swimmers, because she's been wearing them under her uniform all day, is Nell. 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:47.679 And Nell has been watching. 00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:48.240 Mrs. 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:52.559 Klein, the PE teacher, orders the girls to each line up behind one of the diving boards. 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:55.919 This is where the body comparisons can truly flourish. 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:59.519 They are like models on a ghostie, except they are also the judges. 00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:02.879 They waddle toward their respective boards, side-eyeing one another. 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:07.519 It is cold, the wind like a whip, their nipples poke through their costumes. 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:08.799 They hate this. 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:12.159 Girls chatter to each other in clusters, but Eve stands apart. 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:15.200 She does not yet have any inside jokes to rebel in. 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:18.159 Nothing that could be whispered up a line to squeals of delight. 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:23.279 She places her hands in front of her legs, trying to hide her nascent pubic hair from the madding crowd. 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:26.159 She has noticed that none of the other girls seem to have any. 00:12:26.799 --> 00:12:28.559 Is she simply further developed? 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:30.320 Or are they all waxing already? 00:12:30.639 --> 00:12:34.639 Eve's mum wouldn't let her wax, said pubic hair was natural and beautiful. 00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:39.600 Eve is now considering whether it be natural and beautiful to commit matricide. 00:12:39.840 --> 00:12:41.919 Once again, Nell is noticing all of this. 00:12:42.159 --> 00:12:45.600 She is noticing the awkward angle at which Eve has placed her arms. 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:50.240 She has seen the wisps of brown curl tufting out, brushing Eve's inner thighs. 00:12:50.480 --> 00:12:54.399 A part of her wants to protect Eve from what she knows is going to happen. 00:12:54.559 --> 00:12:58.720 Another part of her wants to see how Eve will respond when it does. 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:04.559 Alex Robbins with her tanned, lithe limbs and sun-kissed hair, is standing in front of Eve in the line. 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:07.200 Next to her, in an adjacent line, is Georgia Smith. 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:13.600 Alex is telling Georgia about a boy she frenched last Friday, a friend of her family, who is so fucking hot. 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:21.519 Apparently he asked if he could finger Alex in the backyard after dinner, but Alex is explaining that she would like to save that experience for when it's definitely love. 00:13:21.679 --> 00:13:25.200 Georgia is stammering something in reply about that being so true. 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:27.679 Georgia is trying not to blush as she does this. 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:30.799 As is so often the case with Georgia, she now overreaches. 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:34.480 She says she is considering giving a gobby to the boy who lives next door to her. 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:36.799 Alex is repelled by this crassness. 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:39.440 Fingering is one thing, but a gobby? 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:42.559 You need to respect yourself more, says Alex. 00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:44.000 Georgia is humbled. 00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:45.679 She will get it right next time. 00:13:45.759 --> 00:13:46.159 She will. 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:47.440 She looks at the ground. 00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:50.639 Her eyes spy Eve's feet and then scroll up. 00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:51.600 Up, up, up. 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:57.039 They notice Eve's leg hair, her burgeoning cellulite, and then they land on the money shot. 00:13:57.200 --> 00:13:58.639 Eve's pubic hair. 00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:03.360 This is Georgia's chance to redeem herself in Alex's eyes. 00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:06.960 This is how she will call back her own dignity. 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:09.120 She will take it from Eve. 00:14:09.440 --> 00:14:17.519 And this was Madeline Gray, author of Green Dot and Chosen Family, and one of the featured writers appearing in this year's Sydney Writers Festival. 00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:20.480 For more details, check out our show notes. 00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:29.039 We are stepping back into Sydney's nightlife of the 1980s and 90s. 00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:34.639 A time and safe and welcoming space for lesbian women were few and far between. 00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:44.480 My guest is Robin McCoy, a pioneering nightclub promoter who helped create some of the most important venues for women in Sydney's queer community. 00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:49.679 From Sea Chase to Mars and Club 77, Robin built more than just clubs. 00:14:49.919 --> 00:14:55.360 She built community, connection, and places where people could truly be themselves. 00:14:55.600 --> 00:15:06.159 She also played a role in bringing Oxford Street venues together during the height of the HIV-AIDS crisis for a remarkable fundraiser that made a real difference to people's life. 00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:11.679 This is a fascinating glimpse into a part of Sydney's queer history that deserves to be remembered. 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:12.639 And here's Robin. 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:17.679 The 1980s weren't exactly overflowing with spaces for lesbian women. 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:19.679 Yet you decided to create one. 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:25.840 What inspired you to take that leap and start a nightclub specifically for the lesbian community? 00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:27.759 How did I get started in nightclubs? 00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:29.600 It's a very interesting question. 00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:34.480 I used to go to some nightclubs, and they were not up to scratch. 00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:40.879 They were actually dark, dismal, just not a place that women felt comfortable going to. 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:42.720 So I thought there's gotta be something better. 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:48.799 Maybe I could start something up that's a little bit more upmarket and get different sort of people out. 00:15:49.039 --> 00:15:50.000 So I did. 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:54.559 My first nightclub was called CJ's, and that was in the 1980s. 00:15:54.799 --> 00:15:55.759 It went off. 00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:56.480 It was great. 00:15:56.639 --> 00:15:59.519 The Friday nights were successful, about 200 people. 00:15:59.919 --> 00:16:02.080 Saturday night about 300 people. 00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:05.279 It was only for women, a women's nightclub. 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:08.240 It just brought out a different class of women. 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:09.840 It was very successful. 00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:12.080 Those numbers are incredible. 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:14.720 Hundreds of women turning up every weekend. 00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:16.799 You weren't actually the venue owner. 00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:20.960 You were the promoter who created the event and built a community around it. 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:24.320 So what happened once Sea Chase became a success? 00:16:24.559 --> 00:16:32.399 Unfortunately, after having it for about two years being successful, Friday and Saturday night, they said, yes, we can do it now. 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:33.759 We don't need you. 00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:43.200 And we were having a staff meeting and they dropped that on us, and all my staff got up from the table and went, Well, we're not working for you. 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:45.039 And they decided to leave. 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:47.360 And I went, Well, I'll take all my sound, etc. 00:16:47.519 --> 00:16:50.720 And all of a sudden they went, No, no, no, no, no, we want you to stay. 00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:53.840 I was so surprised that my staff stood by me. 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:55.200 I didn't ask them to. 00:16:55.360 --> 00:17:00.320 They just all automatically, straight away before I even said anything, got up and left. 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:08.000 And that was the power that the gay scene had and the respect that I had, which I was so surprised about. 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:10.400 It's hard to imagine now. 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:14.880 But this was long before social media or even widespread internet access. 00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:18.480 How did you get the word out and build such a loyal following? 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:20.880 We advertised only in Lottl. 00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:22.160 And flyers. 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:24.000 That's all we had in those days. 00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:28.640 A little bit in Star Observer, but it's just amazing word of mouth. 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:33.200 The power of word of mouth and publications like Lottl was extraordinary. 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:34.319 Paint us a picture. 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:36.720 What was a typical night at CJ's like? 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:40.880 And were there any other venues competing for the same crowd at the same time? 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:47.519 There was another nightclub that was very close to CJ's, which was virtually around the corner. 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:48.960 It was called the Playground. 00:17:49.279 --> 00:17:53.599 Not my cup of tea, but that was the only one that we had. 00:17:53.759 --> 00:18:00.559 But CJ's actually brought out different kinda people, more dressing up. 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:02.880 And everyone went there just for a lot of fun. 00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:08.319 There was never any violence, there was never anybody with attitude. 00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:09.359 It just worked. 00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:13.440 You mentioned your staff standing by you when things became difficult. 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:16.160 That's pretty remarkable royalty. 00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:20.880 What was it about the team and the culture you created that inspired that kind of support? 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:23.119 We had excellent staff. 00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:26.720 They were great personalities, a lot of fun at the bar. 00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:28.640 We had theme nights. 00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:30.880 It was just so incredibly friendly. 00:18:31.119 --> 00:18:34.000 And women met other women, which was great. 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:40.000 I've heard many stories about, oh yeah, we met at CJ's and blah blah blah, and they're still together for 35 years. 00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:48.240 And I think it was the people that kept coming and it was the buzz and the fun that they were having that created the energy to make it popular. 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:51.680 CJ's clearly became much more than a nightclub. 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:53.680 It became a real community hub. 00:18:53.759 --> 00:18:56.640 So after that chapter came to an end, what happened next? 00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:00.720 After I left CJ's, Lexi Bradfill actually took it over. 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:04.880 I just was a bit burnt out because I also had a day job. 00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:15.599 After I'd left CJ's, ended up working in real estate, etc., doing a daytime job, just saying I've had I've done my bit for the gay scene. 00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:17.680 I've had a club, it's gone successful. 00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:20.400 Everyone smiles when they say CJ's. 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:27.119 Then I was being approached by women saying, Oh, CJ's is closed now, we've got nowhere to go. 00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:28.720 Why don't you start a night? 00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:31.599 And I've gone, oh, I just don't want to do it again. 00:19:31.839 --> 00:19:35.359 And they've gone, no, no, and night after night I'd hear the same thing. 00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:44.160 So the girlfriend turned around and said, Why don't you just start one night, which is a Saturday night, and then people stop asking you to do one. 00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:49.839 So I went, all right, so we started Hunters, which is in the city in Hunter Street. 00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:58.079 And again, word of mouth, just a few flyers, Lottle, Star Observer, it was packed. 00:19:58.319 --> 00:19:59.440 It was great. 00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:00.880 Fabulous venue. 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:08.720 Had that for about a year, and then the owner, who was straight, said, Oh, I think you're not needed now. 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:10.240 I can continue this. 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:11.839 Oh boy, was he wrong. 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:24.079 I turned to him and I said, Just give me one more night, one more weekend, to put the word out that I am no longer got anything to do with hunters, so it keeps my reputation. 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:25.119 He said, Yeah, sure. 00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:28.240 So I got flyers out, got word out, etc. 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:32.480 I had some help from other people spreading out the news. 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:42.240 I then went up to Mars, which is in Oxford Street, told the two boys up there to come down to have look at Hunters of what we could do. 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:45.200 And could I start the next Saturday? 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:50.400 And they went down to Hunters, saw the crowd, and went, Yep, love to have you at Mars. 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:56.160 So the next week we opened at Mars and there was one woman that showed up at Hunters. 00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:58.400 Nobody went to Hunters. 00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:05.200 So clearly, I don't think he understood the power that the gay community stand by their own. 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:11.920 So Mars was a very interesting venue, the first venue for women on Oxford Street. 00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:29.839 It was packed Friday and Saturday, and we used to get gay boys wanting to come in, and unfortunately I didn't want straight people coming in, and I didn't want the gay boys coming in because you've got to keep the women's venues a little bit protective back in those days because they didn't have a lot. 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:33.839 And again, Mars was a great place and we had shows there. 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:35.839 We had drag shows there. 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:42.319 We didn't have drag kings back in those days, just the drag shows, which really, really went off. 00:21:42.559 --> 00:21:45.279 Then again, the same thing happened. 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:56.480 The two owners of Mars said, Oh, now that it's successful, the gay boys have come in and wanted to do a gay night in your section in your venue. 00:21:56.720 --> 00:21:58.960 So we're gonna move you upstairs. 00:21:59.119 --> 00:21:59.680 Which I knew. 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.359 You wouldn't work. 00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:05.759 So I virtually said thanks, but no thanks. 00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:10.480 I'd rather leave on a high than for it to dwindle. 00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:13.279 So I decided I would leave Mars. 00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:26.960 The next one in 1991, after about two years' break, I started Club 77, which became a mixture of different nights, gay and straight. 00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:34.559 It actually was the home of Club Kookie, as we all know, is so amazing and has grown so big now. 00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:41.359 One thing that stands out about your story that it wasn't just about running a successful nightclub event. 00:22:41.599 --> 00:22:44.480 You also used those venues to support a community. 00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:48.640 Tell us about the Rescue Me fundraiser and how it came about. 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:58.319 So one of the great things we did with Mars is I would always go and visit my brother who had HIV in hospital. 00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:04.079 And every time people visit their same friends all the time, nothing changes. 00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:05.839 Nothing was new. 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:07.759 It's just the same old same O. 00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:11.680 So I thought I'm gonna do a fundraiser at Mars. 00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:18.000 It's on Luxet Street, it's big enough, the venue, and I'm gonna do it called Rescue Me. 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:24.720 I got permission to do a particular poster of Madonna, which was so successful. 00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:30.880 She actually gives permission to use her photos for a certain amount of events for HIV. 00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:35.440 So I had this poster and it was so successful and got everyone talking. 00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:54.559 I thought I'd go one step further and get the other venues, the Oxford Hotel, the Exchange Hotel, the Bind Light Shift come in and would market that we're doing it together as a team because each venue never spoke or never mixed with any other venues. 00:23:54.960 --> 00:24:00.160 And they all agreed to do door prizes, to be there, to work behind the bar for a little bit. 00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:02.720 And I'd actually brought Oxford Street together. 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:12.559 I also went to the licensee police to say we're going to do a fundraiser, and they went, no problems, we'll just stay away, let you do your own thing. 00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:17.759 But the place was absolutely packed with gay straights, whatever. 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:22.240 And it was amazing to see everybody together to do the one thing. 00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:26.160 The one thing I wanted was to get something tangible. 00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:35.920 I wanted to raise funds for all the hospitals to put in video machines back in those days into each room. 00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:42.880 And so that your partner or visitor or family, every every time they go there, they've got nothing to talk about. 00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:44.960 But they could watch a video together. 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:50.960 They could go to the video library, which we organise, get a video, watch it together, talk about it. 00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:54.319 Instead of that silence, that coldness. 00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:57.599 So we put word out that's what we were going to do, a tangible. 00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:03.039 Not just give money to the hospital, that it goes to the administration, but buy something physical. 00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:04.880 And everyone got behind that. 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:07.599 They actually said, yep, this that's great. 00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:09.119 That's what we should be doing. 00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:10.880 And it was so successful. 00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:13.200 It was packed. 00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:17.440 From the time that we opened the doors, they all came running in. 00:25:17.519 --> 00:25:19.039 We had great DJs. 00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:23.519 We had great drag shows, we had Madonna shows. 00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:31.440 It was just so lovely back in those days to have straits and gays together, just having a fabulous time for a very good reason. 00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:36.880 But when the fundraiser was up, there were people working behind the bar all night that donated their wages. 00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:40.799 There were people from other venues that came in to help that donated. 00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:47.359 There was the cloakroom, which was like up here with jackets and coats that you could hardly see somebody. 00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:48.960 They donated all their times. 00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:53.440 What I love about this story is that people could actually see where the money went. 00:25:53.599 --> 00:25:59.279 Do you remember roughly what you were able to achieve with those funds and the impact it had on people in hospital? 00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:08.880 When we worked out how much money we had and how much funds we could spend, we actually got in contact with a company that could give us a very good discount. 00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:14.559 I ended up buying something like 45 videos, massive library. 00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:21.759 We donated 3,000 to the Albion Center, which needed a new bed for patients through the daytime. 00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:23.519 We gave$1,000 to St. 00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:24.240 Vincent's. 00:26:24.319 --> 00:26:27.680 We supplied three hospitals with these video machines. 00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:32.640 We had photos taken so everyone would actually physically see what they achieved. 00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:38.319 Let's talk about a legendary figure in Sydney's gay nightclub, Dawn O'Donnell. 00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:41.519 She was enormously influential on Oxford Street. 00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:45.119 Did your path cross and what was your relationship with her like? 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:53.279 I remember when I first started CJ's, I always, when I walked through the club, I would get women saying, So aren't you worried about Dawn O'Donald? 00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:56.000 And I'd be going, Why would I be worried about Dawn? 00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:01.519 They'd be going, Well, she did have a reputation of actually burning down places. 00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:03.839 And my reply would just be to the women. 00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:08.559 Because you never think about these things to that point of fear, okay? 00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:09.759 Or nothing would happen. 00:27:09.920 --> 00:27:19.599 So I just would say, I'm sure Dawn O'Donald is a very busy businesswoman and has no interest in little ol me that's starting a women's venue. 00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:25.680 She did walk through the front door one day and everybody turned around and went, Dawn's here, Dawn's head. 00:27:26.319 --> 00:27:27.599 Yeah, that's great. 00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:31.359 So I'd walk up and said, Well Dawn, glad to see you here. 00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:33.440 Come and have a drink with me. 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:39.759 So her and a girlfriend came in and of course Dawn got a little bit plastered, which was financially good for me. 00:27:39.920 --> 00:27:43.680 But she visited all my venues and I thought that was great. 00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:46.880 There was a little bit of respect between us. 00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:50.000 Not a great lot of talking, but just that nod. 00:27:50.319 --> 00:27:52.079 You mentioned Club Cuckoo earlier. 00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:54.880 It's become something of a Sydney institution. 00:27:55.119 --> 00:27:59.359 What was it like seeing that event in its early days at Club 77? 00:27:59.759 --> 00:28:02.480 Club Kookie, which is on a Sunday night. 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:19.039 It was run by Gemma and Johnny, and they've got a brilliant reputation of putting out very off-beat but amazing nights with unusual shows and incense burning and cushions on the floor, and I've gone, oh, this is so out of my league. 00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:30.160 The entertainment that they had there was from street performers to the Australian ballet to violinists to really out there sexual dancing. 00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:36.240 It was always amazing to find what's going to happen tonight, what's going to be the entertainment tonight. 00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:49.519 There was so many different backgrounds that went there to gleeby, long dingly-dangly hair and all this sort of stuff, to high-end well-known people, which of course I've forgotten who they are now. 00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:50.799 But it was such a mixture. 00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:56.640 It brought so many different people, so many different cultures, so many different ages together. 00:28:56.799 --> 00:28:59.200 And now, of course, it's a very big thing now. 00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:04.640 Across Sea Chase, Handos, Mars, and Club 77, you witnessed decades of nightlife. 00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:10.640 Did you ever experience homophobia, violence, or major security issues within your venues? 00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:15.119 In all those clubs, there was never violence. 00:29:15.279 --> 00:29:16.960 There was never any dramas. 00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:23.759 If anybody ever thought about any of those venues, they would only think that we just all had great fun. 00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:27.279 Because there's communication and everybody it's just a great place. 00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:28.480 Just great vibes. 00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:29.759 We never had any fights. 00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:37.519 We had bouncers, of course, on Club 77, not and CJs and that, but we're like female bouncers that were only there just to greet people. 00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:46.240 The Club 77, we had two very big burly guys, because it's on William Street, and I would give them instructions just to say, have a good evening. 00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:47.440 That's all it was. 00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:51.599 And then when they went down to the drawer, tell the drawer people, just have a great night. 00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:52.640 Great to see you. 00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:56.240 By the time they got to the bar, I would know that they're in a good mood. 00:29:56.480 --> 00:30:00.640 Your club seemed to have a very different atmosphere for many other venues at a time. 00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:02.880 What do you think was the secret ingredients? 00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:04.559 What made them feel so special? 00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:12.000 There are other nightclubs that I had competition with, which is up the cross, that are multi-million dollar nightclubs. 00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:14.720 Ritzy nightclubs, trendy nightclubs. 00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:16.319 I couldn't compete with that. 00:30:16.400 --> 00:30:18.240 I had a basement nightclub. 00:30:18.319 --> 00:30:26.079 But the only thing I could do that was different, it would be friendly, it would be safe, and it would be the people's club. 00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:29.359 And that reputation just ripped in. 00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:35.119 The promoters that came in, I gave them the respect and let them run their night, and it showed. 00:30:35.359 --> 00:30:36.079