Shed Industry Consulting - PART 1

The shed industry doesn’t usually change overnight, but right now it’s shifting in ways you can feel on the lot and in your ad dashboard. We recorded from a coffee shop on a “make it work” kind of day, and pulled together a panel to introduce Shed Geek Consultation: a practical way to get experienced eyes on your decisions before they get expensive.

Tyler Mayhan shares what it takes to scale a shed company when the hustle that got you started stops being enough. We talk about moving from gut-feel leadership into clear mission, stronger org structure, defined roles, and systems that support growth. If you’re stuck between small business chaos and the next level, this hits that exact tension.

Richard Mashburn brings a data-first, no-sugarcoating view from years across sales, marketing, finance, and now operating as a shed dealer with multiple locations. We get into the real market story behind “sales are down,” why consolidation is accelerating, and how bigger players are gaining share through more aggressive marketing, better tech, and tighter execution. We also unpack warning signs like too-good-to-be-true consignment offers, how customers react to add-on fees, and why knowing your margins matters more when shoppers get payment-sensitive.

Christopher Sedlak rounds it out with shed marketing strategy you can measure: SEO, PPC, cost per lead, and why the plan has to follow the goal, not the other way around. This is Part 1 of a two-part series, and it’s built for dealers and manufacturers who want to compete smarter, not just spend more.

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This episodes Sponsors:
Studio Sponsor: Shed Pro

Identigrow
Solar Blaster
Cardinal Manufacturing
Digital Shed Builder

Transcript

INTRO 0:34

Hello and welcome back to the Shed Geek Podcast. Here's a message from our studio sponsor. Let's be real. Running a shed business today isn't just about building great sheds. The industry is changing fast. We're all feeling the squeeze, competing for fewer buyers, while expectations keep climbing. And yet I hear from many of you that you are still juggling spreadsheets, clunky software, or disconnected systems. You're spending more time managing chaos than actually growing your business. That's why I want to talk to you about our studio sponsor, ShedPro. If you're not already using them, I really think you should check them out. ShedPro combines your 3D configurator, point of sale, RTO contracts, inventory, deliveries, and dealer tools all in one platform. They even integrate cleanly into our Shed Geek marketing solutions. From website leads, to final delivery, you can quote, contract, collect payment, and schedule delivery in one clean workflow. No more double entries, no more back and forth chaos. Quoting is faster, orders are cleaner. And instead of chasing down paperwork, you're actually running your business. And if you mention ShedGeek, you'll get 25% off all setup fees. Check it out at shedpro.co/ShedGeek. Thank you, ShedPro, for being our studio sponsor and honestly for building something that helps the industry.

Shannon 1:34

Okay, welcome back to another episode of the Shed Geek Podcast. Uh, an unruly day of uh podcasting, if I've ever seen one myself. We're in a coffee shop, and for those who just listened to the iFab episode, the new owners, you'll know that we're still sitting here. And here we are on a borrowed laptop because that's what happens when you forget yours two hours away in a uh hotel room. So, we're hoping all this goes through. We certainly appreciate everybody on this call. We'll just kind of go through maybe initially.

Welcome And How To Reach Us

Shannon 2:07

Uh um, well, I guess I should do my welcome. You know, feel free to give us a call in 618-309-3648-info@ shedgeek.com 330-997-3055 for the podcast call-in number. And uh yeah, we just, you know, give us a like and a follow, guys. Message us, we'll do the like and a follow back. We'll we'll join your YouTube channel, we'll follow you. We want to help each other digitally all we can. Uh, thank you guys for listening. Always thank you guys for paying attention to the sponsors. We appreciate them. Uh, we're here to talk about Shed Geek consultation today and all of our untetheredness. Um, but look at this great panel. Look at this great group of people, shed industry. If you're not paying attention on YouTube, these are just some of the coolest people to hang around. I talk regularly, although here lately I've been terrible communication with almost all of these folks. I love to see what they're seeing in the industry, what they're hearing, what they're experiencing. And we thought maybe we can just bring this to the table and speak in a consultative uh uh take a consultative approach at business. And these are the guys who become the sounding boards and the experts in doing that. So, we'll talk about the disciplines and the things that and the areas that they work in, but maybe let's just do a round robin an introduction for those who don't know. Um uh Tyler, let's start with you. I think arguably you've maybe been in the industry longer than any of us, uh, and just have a really sound like understanding of you know the last 20 years of what it's done. But who are you? What do you do, and what will your role be in this consultative approach? How about that?

Tyler Mayhan 4:01

Sure, yeah, thanks, Shannon. Uh yeah, my name is Tyler Mayhan. I am from central Oklahoma,

Tyler On Scaling With Clarity

Tyler Mayhan 4:09

been in the industry, oh goodness, since 2003. Uh, started working for Better Barns back in 2003 as just a teenager, so that gives you an idea how old I am. Uh uh worked there, built a lot of storage sheds and moved into management in 2015. Uh, oversaw Better Barns transition from a shed manufacturer uh with gross sales of around a million to a million and a half a year uh to uh really a uh uh a diversified company that covers a lot of different aspects in the industry uh with sales up between ten to fifteen million. Uh and so I think what I bring to the table is for a lot of the people in our industry whose businesses are in that transition period where you've kind of got started. Uh, you know, a lot of times an entrepreneur with a lot of fire in his belly gets a company started, and then you need to hire somebody, and then you have to figure out your systems, uh, and then you have to figure out if you haven't already your mission, some of your focus, some of the things like that. And a lot of people don't do that when they start a company, and then the company gets a little bit bigger and they realize they need organization, they need roles, they need clarity. Uh, and I've lived that. And so, I don't just, you know, I I'm not just coming to you with something I read in a book. Uh, we've done that here at Better Barns, and uh through the help of God we've been successful, and obviously don't take all the credit for that, but I have lived through it. Uh, and so what I bring to the table, I think, in our consultation team, uh, I'm probably the least qualified in my field. Uh, there's some giants here, uh, but I am uh I do think I can help small businesses, you know, small to mid-sized businesses that are needing some clarity in some of their mission, some of their organization and you know, roles, things of that nature. Uh, and then really I think uh I also I'm not gonna get into my background a lot, but I am a teacher as well at our Christian school, and so I have a passion for teaching people uh you know concepts and principles. And so really, I think my passion is to help people align their business with their mission and with all the roles, uh everybody roll in the same direction. Uh, and so far, I've been able to work with a few clients and uh been very happy to be able to help them find some ways to improve their business and just looking forward to working with more of you folks out there. So thank you, Shannon.

Shannon 7:04

Uh one of my favorite things too, thank you, Tyler. One of my favorite things is you've not you've been on both sides of the consultative coin. You've received consultation, so you've experienced what that looks like, what it feels like. And I one of the things I took away from whenever you talked about that was uh that it was always more valuable um than what you felt like you paid for. Uh and that's the experience that I think we hope to provide here is that you feel as though uh it was an investment, not a cost on your on your uh, you know, your expense line there at the end of the day. And uh just your presence, your you're you've been an editor or a um columnistic contributor in the SBJ for a lot of years there initially. I used to love reading your articles and uh miss that you still write them, but I know that you've got a lot going on and uh just have earned a tremendous amount of respect for you and what you've done over the years and how you've approached it and handled business and um particular area of discipline. We obviously see you as uh as uh someone who focuses on mission, vision, values, business acumen, uh that next step, next generation, growth mindset, uh, how to take uh uh and set up systems and processes from a 30,000-foot view uh so that you're gonna go from 1 million to 15 million, because that's the hump that a lot of people seem to struggle getting past. So, thank you. We just appreciate all you've done that's allowed us to get here. Uh it means a lot. Richard, you're I'm gonna go clockwise. So, you're at the top right here, obviously, uh person who needs no introduction, but maybe tell the folks what you do and uh maybe an area specialty up. I'm sure the list gets very long if we're not careful. Uh, we could do two or three podcasts just with Richard uh and never never bore the audience. Everybody always loves his contribution. So welcome to the show and uh Shed Geek Consultation. What's your plans here?

AD-IDENTIGROW 9:18

Oh no. Sam, what's going on? Are you okay? Yes, I'm fine, Lisa. I was just trying to get a screwdriver and all this other stuff fell down. I'm ready to go buy a shed so we can have some space and this garage again. I agree. I keep looking at the shed Mr. Jenkins bought. Let's ask him where I got his. Howdy, neighbor. We're wondering, how do you like your shed? I love it. It's exactly what I needed, and I couldn't have asked for a better service. And where did you get it? I can't remember, but let me check. Something this nice will probably have the builder's name on it somewhere. No, I'm sorry. I can't find a name anywhere. Well, we finally got a shed. Yes, I just hope we're happy. The thing is a lot more shoddy than I expected, and I'm sure I told him I wanted a window, but they didn't have it in the paperwork, so I couldn't argue. Boy, is this a lousy shed. We haven't even had it two years, have we? Barely. It was just a bad deal all the way around. Mr. Jenkins told me the other day that he likes his shed so much he wants to get a second one, but he still can't remember where he got it. Your product is your best advertising. At Identigrow, we provide nameplates that ensure your quality products are never forgotten. Identify your products, grow your business. For more information, visit identigrow.com. Or give them a call at 540-283-9193.

Richard Mashburn 10:54

No, thanks, Shannon, Cord. No, um, I was glad when we talked about participating and doing it. It's something I've got a passion for. Um you know, unlike Tyler, I probably have some of the least amount of business time in the shed industry. I've only touched the shed industry since 2017, which is pushing close to a decade now, I guess. But um, you know, my background is probably different than a lot. Um, you know, my early career of, you know, financial banking,

Richard On Data And Deal Reality

Richard Mashburn 11:27

but I was in automotive space, um, you know, large dealer group, dealer organization, kind of the birth of subprime auto lending. That then led me into major banking, lending, indirect auto lending, um alternative data things, like you know, a lot of stuff you're hearing about now. Um, I got to sit around. I was in the room when the idea to create Carvana was born and stuff like that. So um, you know, different things. I've had the opportunity with several big fortune 50s. Um, I was around at kind of the birthplace of digital marketing advertising. I can't do anything Chris does. Um, but I, you know, I was there when the first social media aggregator was launched and you know, have met with the Google people myself face to face personally and you know had some experiences. And I think for me, that's kind of what led it through. I, you know, I had a lot of I am a sales- person. I've built sales organizations, sales teams, but my job for years has been how to take a goal or a vision, like Tyler talks about, you know, what's the plan? And then script an idea, even conceptually, that may not exist of how to get there. What that's turned into over the years is a lot of heavy lifting and alternative types of data sets and things like that. I spent six years as the chief sales and marketing officer of RTO National, which is where I'm probably most known in this industry. And that's a unique role, you know. RTO National's, you know, not a it's a big organization, but you know, there's only a few people at the top. And Phil's got Phil Falls has great knowledge and information, and he's also an investment guy. Um, you know, Ed Matthews, the CFO at the time, I was with and spent most of my time there with, you know, long-term head of major banks and corporations. And we approach the shed industry, I think, sometimes differently than others. It's a very data-driven, never fact-driven, but that gave me an opportunity being the head of sales and marketing, but also a core of a trifecta that made the bulk of the business decisions for the organization. You were constantly asked, would you buy this, invest this, do this, how does this work? You know, somebody wants to do rent-to-one with you, understanding their program, how do you solve? So, it gave me this luxury opportunity of traveling all over the United States for a number of years and meeting with everybody from a billion-dollar-a-year manufacturer to the guy with three lots in South Georgia. Um, and just seeing how they did business. And to me, I'm just a student of the game. You know, everybody has value, everybody has a way. So I think probably the jokingly way to put it is I'm kind of an aggregator. Um, but what that's turned into over the years is people like asking me questions about, well, what have you seen? How would you go about it? And then I find a lot of times I'm not even expressing maybe my own opinion, which the most relevant time now. I've spent the last two and a half plus years as my own shed dealer. So, I left RTO National. Um, I've got a partner, you know, the combined organization is pretty substantial, but the little piece that I play with the majority of the time, we're seven locations and a plant. But like Tyler talked about, by year or two, we were seven million a year. Um, you know, and it's one of those I've experienced all the same problems. You know, I think the last podcast you did with me, Shannon. You asked me, What's the biggest struggle? I said, QuickBooks. Just some QuickBooks. Just, you know, it's the most worst piece of software I've ever seen in my life. Um but no, you know, I lived all the same challenges. I think everybody's done day to day. Um, but I've also seen it from a scale of 25, 18 wheeler loads of materials a day running into an automated plant to literally a guy building one shed at a time in his backyard, putting it out in his front yard and selling it and doing okay. Yeah. Um, you know, and all of that's good. And I think I get I, you know, my interest in doing this was I like just hearing what the questions are. And then sometimes providing a perspective of what's been out there, what can be, what has been, or there are different ways. Sometimes I tell people, you know, never ask me a question you don't want the answer for. Um you know, because I think one of the things I bring value in is I don't not in a rude way or unprofessional way, I don't candy coat much. You know, if you see something and you ask an opinion, the only value of the opinion is if you state it honestly to the best of your ability. If it's a bad deal or a bad thing, walk away. You know, if it's a good deal, good thing, jump on it, you know. Otherwise, why ask the question? Um, and I think my roles in the past kind of required that of me, so I'm very comfortable with it. Um and just kind of getting out there and doing it. So, I think from that sense, it's one of those I like looking at strange, new, unique, challenging opportunities from bulk purchases to acquisitions. I do get a lot of questions around buy sales, valuations, things like that. Um Shannon, you well know, I've done a fair bit of consulting on the technology side for most of the organizations that have either sponsored or on the show or done it, you know, at different times. Um and you know, so I think it's a broad swath of stuff. It's more about just having a sounding board or an opportunity to look at it and go, how do you think about it? And I find just like Tyler said, I take as much from it as I give. Because forcing you to think through that scenario for yourself, sometimes it always relates to something you've got going on or have done personally. You know, so it keeps you grounded. Nothing, nothing makes you better than trying to teach somebody else how to do what you've done or seen somebody else do. Because it constantly challenges you in how you think about it. So, I think that's the value for me is getting out there and helping people think through their own process and thought, create the best way. Um they'd probably remiss and Shannon and go, and I can spit facts like their nails. Um the guy that called me the other day, he's like, you know, valuation, what should I have net margin after I buy a building, ship them to me for sales. So, if you're not holding 30%, he goes, How do you even know that off the top of your head? And I'm like, it's just rough math, man. It's just, you know, if you think about you still have to pay commissions and do marketing if you can't net out 12 to 15% net margin selling the shed all in. And if you don't have 30% built in when you buy bulk inventory and drop it on your lot, you don't, you know. That's the kind of stuff people just ask me sometimes. It's just to me, I had to know it walking in a building and walking through it off my feet. So, if I didn't, then just kind of comes naturally to me.

Cord 18:26

Well, I like that, I like that piece of the conversation, Richard, because I think good consulting, no matter uh, you know, in what capacity that is, is very much a two-way uh a two-way relationship, right? I mean you're gleaning the information from the client, applying it to past experience, but past experience only adds up to what's working today, right? And so, a lot of times the client and the questions that the client has um inform uh the nature of the industry just as much as you know something that was relevant uh eight or eight or ten years ago, you know, that concept may have come and gone and proved itself, and somebody hit it big and a lot of people failed and all those things. But um I think that good consulting, and we have these conversations, you know, with each other, not necessarily on the air, of just seeing where people are at, where they're going. Uh, and I think this group is particularly good about having a historical context of the industry, understanding where it's come from, where it's at now, and where it's headed. Um, and so I really like that point, um, Richard, about you know, having that two-way relationship. Consulting is something that continues to move uh every day, every week, every month, every year. Um, and I think all of us are plugged in and have a fire in our belly to make sure that we're the ones who are on top of it. Um, you know, and that's the attitude about it is as much as the experience and everything else. So, uh Peter's now moved around on our screen. I think he was next in the clock order there, Shannon. But you tell me where you want him to be. Yeah, no, that's good.

Shannon 20:17

Uh Peter, if you're if you're uh able to hear us, looks like you're muted at the moment, but I know you're traveling, so maybe service is sketchy. But if you can hear us, obviously uh somebody who got into the industry 15 years ago, started working his way, you know, in through sales, owner of multiple shed lots, someone we interviewed a long time ago, and uh in with a group of guys that just do a lot of good things, cool things, exciting things in the industry, willing to, more than anything, willing to pick up the uh, you know, the torch and just carry it forward, regardless of, you know, it's hard when you're in the industry and you're selling a product or service to the industry. But Peter, you guys have done well creating making cell simple, uh, creating the Shed Sales Summit. You got so many adventures now going on. I'm not sure if you can hear me, but if so, will it will let you take over? And then if not, we'll interview uh or introduce Christopher. That's what I thought. I thought maybe his uh I thought maybe his service was a little bit. We'll leave the intro and cut the yeah, yeah, we'll get back to him here in a little bit. So, uh Christopher, you might be uh well known in so many circles, especially that Northeast corridor and like what your past has been, but maybe a bit of an introduction to the greater industry in some respects. Um, you know, working with us on this consultative idea. I'll tell you what, I won't steal your thunder. I'll just let you introduce yourself and your background and what you do.

AD-SOLAR BLASTER 21:53

Hello, Shed Builders. I'd like to grab your attention for just a moment. As we look ahead, one thing is clear customers. Consumers will have higher expectations than ever before. Shed consumers have an unprecedented access to information. To stay competitive, you need to create sheds that are not only high in quality, but also rich in innovation. You might recall my friend Dan Rheaume, one of my early podcast guests, who introduced Solar Blaster fans, specifically the Solar Roof Blaster. Dan has been busy handling orders and he's eager to speak directly to shed builders about his groundbreaking products. What stands out to me about Dan's products, designed specifically for sheds, like the Solar Roof Blaster and the Solar Light Blaster, is how they enhance the shed owner's experience. With the focus on quality, it's time to start thinking about adding features and benefits for the end user. Here at Shed Geek, we wholeheartedly recommend Solar Blaster as the solution. My favorite thing about the entire line of products, the support you'll receive from Dan. Not only is he incredibly knowledgeable about these products, but he's also one of the most customer-focused individuals I know. He truly stands behind both his product and his service. We're searching for companies ready to elevate customer satisfaction to the next level. To learn more, just visit SolarBlasterfans.com and fill out some basic information for a callback or connect directly at 480-747-7097. You can also check out the Shed Geek newsletter, where a click on the Solar Blaster ad will guide you to a forum for more information and some cool videos showcasing the products. Let's power up innovation and elevate customer experiences together.

Christopher Sedlak 23:44

Okay, sounds good. Well, first off, it's uh a delight to be with everyone here today on this panel and discussing consulting services with Shed Geek. So, I've been around the tech industry since I graduated college back in the mid-1990s, went through the dot-com boom and then a subsequent bust. And that's what led me into getting involved with web development. Uh so I did that freelance for quite a number of years outside of the Shed industry. Um, so I guess yeah, I've seen how everything has kind of grown up around

Christopher On SEO And PPC Math

Christopher Sedlak 24:19

us over the last 25 or so years. Um about 10 years ago, uh joined a boutique marketing agency um in southeastern Pennsylvania and uh got involved with the shed industry pretty much immediately there. Uh so the last 10 years that I was there, um I worked with quite a number of shed and outdoor product clients. So again, everything from sheds to the poly outdoor furniture, both from the manufacturer as well as the dealer side. Um also working you know with pergolas, pavilions, um, and those sorts of outdoor product swing sets. So, anything that you can see a shed dealer selling, I've been involved in the marketing of that in one form or another. Um so initially at the agency, I did a lot of digital marketing, a lot of pay-per-click, and a lot of SEO search engine optimization. Um, and then I moved more into a liaison role between the sales and marketing department, kind of account management and the digital side, putting together digital plans for clients. And uh that culminated then with me moving into full account management over there. Um, so I love talking with shed clients, as Shannon and Court know, I love talking numbers. Um, because at the end of the day, anything that we do, and Richard would back this up, everything that we do with marketing uh and the shed industry ultimately comes down to the bottom line. Is it going to make the clients money? How much do we want to invest in marketing? We go into our pay-per-click or the you know the SEO dashboards, we want to know how many visits we're getting out to the site each month, how much we're paying per click, how much we're paying for each lead that's coming in. And I love talking with clients and helping them understand those various aspects of you know their marketing and figuring out how we can squeeze more out of every penny uh that goes with it. So, a lot of my delights in uh working here with Shed Geek Marketing has been working with those smaller uh companies that have kind of $500,000 to maybe $2.5 million range that are just kind of getting their legs underneath them and trying to figure out kind of where the holes are in their strategy. Um and you know, I think one of the challenges that we see with a lot of clients, it's easy just to throw money at a plan. Uh so sometimes the plan comes before the strategy for a lot of clients, and I like to kind of try to help clients put those things in the right order, put the cart um after the horse instead of before it. Um, and talk about what the main goal is that we're trying to achieve, and then put the right products and services to go with that goal. Um so yeah, so like Richard, I may not have been around uh the shed industry for you know as long as Tyler has. Um, but I certainly feel with the 10 years that that I put into it and the tech background, I have quite a bit to offer our clients uh in the consultative uh arena for marketing.

Shannon 27:34

And honestly, um a unicorn, as we like to say around the office, in that you not only um are able to consult and strategize at a high level, but even be a service provider uh for those people who often want a solution. And um, you know, we've had a few uh consultative clients come on already, but we've just we've not really launched it because we've already been honestly growing so much, even in the marketing capacity here lately, that what we said six months ago is what we meant. We've been trying to focus on intentional growth and not overpromise and under deliver, and watching very closely uh the experience that people are having, whether it be a website, you know, SEO ads, uh or whatever. Um, but you've just done a great job. And here's the beauty of it is like uh we have a whole host of uh marketing client service providers that are that are not here today. And maybe eventually we can just do a podcast with all of them and connect them so that the faces can be seen from uh from the industry perspective to kind of understand that there's you know five or six people who are working on branding guidelines and websites and ads and SEO and different things. But Chris, you've served really well as like this liaison between the two, which has worked really great. And we've got a couple of good conversations gone with other marketing agencies that either want to collaborate or uh in some cases have wanted to exit the space completely. Um, and we're just we're just watching that and figuring out how to move, when to move, and not just how it serves us, but also how it serves the industry. Uh, like we mentioned before, you know, there's been times we've handed clients over to what we felt like was a better alternative than what we were what we were offering. We've been really big on audits. Uh so for those of you, whether you're a dealer, a manufacturer, or whatever level you are, reach out to us because whether it's buying a full consultative package or time block, we can be there to help you walk through or at least understand. Some people just want to take an hour of your time and say, what's a webhook? You know, how does it connect? Uh, you know, what should I be looking at on those things? I don't understand because I'm a I'm a dealer, I'm independent, and the manufacturer doesn't do my marketing. So, I need someone who's a sounding board, which is the word of the day that keeps coming up, whether it be in business, Tyler, or whether it be in marketing, you know, and I know Peter has dropped off because he he's got a uh sketchy service where he's traveling, but we'll patch him back in and get his thoughts on some of this as well, too. And um, you know, call us. I mean, I think that's the answer at the end of the day. Message us, call us. If you need someone to talk to make sure you're not making a big mistake, um, that there's valuable information there in people who have done it. And we've tried to assemble not just the service providers, but the consultants that you see here today, you know, to use uh Tyler's words, some giants in the industry, some people that we just know from behind the scenes that offer a lot of value. And uh, and if that's valuable to you, it's you know, it's a value proposition for us, you know. So, we want to be able to take these the time and service and expertise. Uh maybe the more maybe the more layman way of saying it is, you know, when you pull up to a shed uh a shed as a shed hauler and you move that uh building Tyler um safely, securely, and uh get it five miles down the road, and they wonder why that costs you know $750 uh for 30 minutes of time. Uh it's because you're not paying me for the time, you're paying me for the years in service and the investment and the equipment and the expertise uh, you know, to be able to do it, as opposed to the quote unquote notorious uh 250 guy uh that they talk about on the Shed Haulers page. So, you know, there is a group of folks here that we really feel like their time is valuable, we value their time, and uh we hope that you do too if you want to become a Shed Geek consultation client. Uh, this is a panel of experts that we feel like can move the needle. So, all the introductions are done. Where do we start from there?

Cord 31:57

Well, I mean, I think to me, the expertise and the actual um opinions, strategies, um, you know, how to implement those is the most important part. So, I mean, something that's been on um, you know, all of our minds here at Shed Geek and all the conversations that we've had is there seems to be um currently we're sitting here, you know, as we as we enter summer, so into the you know, some of the prime shed selling, depending on which part of the country you're in.

Market Pressure And Winning Moves

Cord 32:30

Um, there seems to be some um consumer slippage or even uh a degradation of what that what the customer is looking for. Um you know, with currently, I believe we're kind of in a circumstance where credit card defaults are up and at approaching all-time highs, depending on which kind of index you look at, um, along with energy prices, you know, obviously being up for everyone across the country. So, we continue to hear that there is, you know, that customer that maybe um last year or the year before was possibly more of a few custom, you know, a few more custom add-ons, a few more, uh, a few more uh uh dollars to spend, a few more dollars on monthly, you know, uh not to mention it seems like there are more people who are shopping RTO, shopping payments, you know, as they're considering these purchases. So, you kind of have you know, maybe slippage of that that middle-tier customer that is looking now either for a payment versus what might have been cash or even private credit before sliding into that RTO space. And then I think on the high end, which a lot of uh a lot of um manufacturers have positioned themselves really well, there seems to be an uptick in Tiny Home, which is probably a uh sliding down of you know that first-time home buyer who maybe would have considered uh a larger payment on a mortgage and now is looking into that. I guess Richard, I'm really interested to see. Obviously, you've been on all sides of this and are a dealer now. Like what do you see as not only the current state, but the sort of winning approach, you know, to these sort of like these sets of consumer conditions at the moment as we as we approach the rest of our sales year.

AD-CARDINAL MANUFACTURING 34:35

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Richard Mashburn 35:37

I think that's the um, I mean, you're hearing it. You know, clients are down, you know, spring was not the previous spring, things like that. You're hearing it. Um my cautionary tale is I found from experience a lot of people will poor mouth it even if they're doing well. There does seem to be a you know, everybody accepts and understands there's real pressure on the consumer at the moment, especially if you believe it's short-term or whatever,

Consolidation And Smarter Competition

Richard Mashburn 36:11

and you kind of go, okay, that has a short-term impact. My personal opinion, though, if you start putting a macro on it versus a micro and you kind of go, okay, I'm not me selling as many ramps and window boxes as I did because people are a little more couple hundred sensitive here or there, it's not enough to change the fact that it's still a luxury purchase and the people that are out seeking it are usually doing it out of disposable income. So, it comes down to the effectiveness. I do believe the negativity in the industry is a self-proclaiming prophecy. Because, in my opinion, the consolidation is actually ramping and moving faster, and the big are getting bigger and they are moving faster, and they are becoming more competitive on their pricing. They are becoming way more aggressive in their advertising and marketing. Christopher, I assume you're seeing you know, the Google Click spend is starting to move and shift across the horizon. You're seeing 15, 20 cents a click shifts across the horizon. You're seeing you know, people doing things that are moving faster than the bulk of the industry. And that's what I mean by consolidation. There is a smaller head count moving at a pace that is way faster, that is taking market share. So, you see a doubling of the impact on the average shed dealer. And what I mean by that is if you see a natural pullback of the consumer due to consumer pricing pressure or a fear factor due to the war or whatever, where they don't buy now, or maybe they're deferring a purchase from the normal spring selling season, but you're also seeing two or three of your sales sneak out the back door to a guy that wasn't taking your business before that has moved into your market, around your market, or is cherry-picking your market. You know. I literally had a conversation today with an individual asking me about a combination of AI engines generating intensively focused rotating ads using a third AI for the decisioning factor of the place. You know, and it's shopping and crawling the market continuously and pulling price points back in and then attacking on Tell me that's something we've all seen a dozen times. You know that's a game being played at a level and then ask me, does it work? Oh yeah. You know, the click-through rates are enormous, the cost per click is still in line. You know, and then you get somebody that's actually good on the conversion piece on the backside. It would be my expectation by the time we run out of the shed expo, people are going to be selling stuff, and then there's gonna be a handful of people going, How do I make technology work again? Which flashbacks 2018-2019. 2018 was the predicted worst year in the shed business, possibly. We were predicting 2020 to be the worst one until COVID saved the industry, in my opinion, and bailed a lot of people out that had no business still being in it. And a bunch of those are hemorrhaging now and getting pushed out. And then you're seeing a group of people move back on top of it. So, you start seeing these interactions and you kind of go, what is that? That's very macro. So, you're going, okay, the industry is not selling less sheds. There are some shed traditional people learning how to compete with Home Depot and backyard products and you know, the guys at Tough Shed and stuff like that. I mean, keep in mind, you know, those are half billion to billion dollar a year industry. So, we're still not all competing with the shed guy up the street. That's just the only guy we can compete with. Because if we start trying to fight with the others, it gets harder. You know, we're not willing to pay staff to be there seven days a week. We're not willing to employ two salespeople or three salespeople per lot and things like that. So the competitiveness is changing in that sense still. And I think that's probably the biggest thing people are trying to debate is what do I do? If the traditional, I mean, there's still people doing display lots. I mean, and there's some of them successfully doing display lots. A shed on a corner with a banner and a phone number to a cell phone that may have a voicemail. And they sell sheds. So, I'm not saying it's not, but that's not the scale the game's being played on. So, you're seeing if you call it the industry's down eight to twelve percent, which probably most people would say it's that or more, you're probably seeing a shift in market of that or greater to a handful of entities across a smaller footprint. And they're spreading rapidly. And I think that's where you get focused on is what am I doing to compete? How am I thinking about it? I mean, I'm getting guys that are just mid-tier, you know, and then you know, Shannon and I had an off-call, you know, you're talking about people of scale, and you know, me talking about people of scale. One of the best conversations I've had recently was a new consignment dealer going, I've been with the same manufacturer for two years, you know, I make my normal 10%. And a guy walked in the door the other day and said he'd give me a 25% consignment commission with no investment. Should I do it or not? You know, and they're going, I know I have no business asking you this question. I said, No, I'm probably one of the best people to ask that question. And I'm like, because something is horribly wrong there.

Tyler Mayhan 41:35

Yeah.

Richard Mashburn 41:36

Horribly wrong. And it's great that your instinct screamed, something's wrong.

Shannon 41:46

25 is the biggest I've heard, yeah.

Richard Mashburn 41:49

Well, but you know, consignment manufacturers, meaning they've borrowed money or are running money through on their materials, and they can't get new draws against their lines until they put new inventory out, are making promises of anything they can to any piece of dirt that'll let them park buildings on it so they can draw against their line and try to outrun their failing cash flow model. We've seen this before. It's been in a while, but we've seen it before. Tyler knows what I'm talking about. They get the big lines out there, they had consignment dealers all over the place, and they can't draw against their lines until they build a building. So, if they start running out of cash, it's not about sales, it's about getting the approval to build more buildings until they run out of room and then they collapse and they implode horrifically when they do. But when you start seeing the promises that get too far out there, you know, it's a it's an indicator of a real strain in a market. Now, then you can have a great conversation going, okay, now how many buildings are you selling a year? What's your marketing strategy? What value could you bring a manufacturer other than the one you're with? What do you like about them? What do you not? You know, 10, 12% is not unreasonable, some do more. Have you ever thought about doing delivery or contract? Then you can start having a real educational conversation about it, but you know, 25 is scary, you know, and it's okay to be scared of that. And I think that's when you start talking about what you're seeing in the industry, when you see these huge anomalies pop up. You know, there's something behind them. You know, I'm an old Sherlock Holmes fan, you know, author Corner Dole's favorite line. You know, when you eliminate all the possibilities, whatever's left, no matter how unlikely, must be the answer.

Cord 43:26

And I think that's 25% emission, 25% division on 20% reduced building. Some somebody's trying to stay ahead of cash.

Richard Mashburn 43:37

Something's not working somewhere. And I think that's what's your pricing strategy. Yeah. You know, my little company has done pretty well. We've not raised prices yet. I'm talking about in years. We run minor little discounts when we want to. We run through it, but we provide a high quality building at a, you know, and we're not the cheapest, we're not the most expensive, but we haven't done a bunch of a bunch of fluctuations. We're not what we're not doing right now is dumping fuel impact fees. I'm already seeing dealers surcharge customers. They do not like that. Yeah. Do a survey. Do a single question. I'm not saying it's not a valid expense. I'm not saying all of that. I'm going, you know, you'd do better to charge them credit card fees than you would jump gas fees or fuel fees or diesel fees on a consumer. You want to hack somebody off, start trying to disclose that and watch them not buy a window box or ramp. Watch them not buy a shed. Watch them just get up and walk out. You know, and I think that's where you start thinking about the competitiveness of the market and what it's doing. It's getting back to, you know, when you can sell a shed to anybody anytime, anywhere, and there's a list sitting out there, it's one thing. When you have to go work for it and figure out, well, now the consumer's feeling strained for the first time really hard in a long time in this particular space. But they're also seeing people offering solutions that you may not have. No credit card fees, no debit card fees. You can take a check, you can pay online, you can go through the website. I'm not charging surf charge fees. I don't have block and leveling fee. You know, and I love the guys on the haulers page. I was watching that same debate you're talking about, Shannon, the other day. But the problem is when none of the retailers will give you delivery, it doesn't matter what you do. Yeah. You know, so you better provide service, but you better understand the value because it is an ecosystem. One side never lives without the other. And every time I went into an organization, it was always dominated. They either started as a builder, Tyler, they started as a driver, or they started as a retailer. And everything in their PL then just screams that they favor that entity instead of trying to find balance.

AD-DIGITAL SHED BUILDER 45:40

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Tyler Mayhan 46:44

See, Shannon, I don't know if it's my turn to say something here, but I just want to say uh, you know, we actually at Better Barns, we have actually hired Christopher to help us with some of our marketing. And I know, you know, part of this podcast episode is just to introduce the consulting team to the to the industry, but there are guys that are, you know, some of the guys I've worked with are have been in the industry a year or less, and they don't know these things that Richard is just

Why Counsel Beats Costly Mistakes

Tyler Mayhan 47:17

spitting out, you know, right and left. I know most of these things Richard's saying, but even I, with 20 years in the industry, when I listen to Richard, there's things I learned as I listen. And you know, this team that you guys have put together, the scripture says that in the multitude of counselors, there's safety. Uh, and when you're running a business, before you make a decision that may cost you a lot, it's a good idea to bounce it off somebody that's been around and has some answers. Uh, you know, that's part of what we're doing. Uh I've been running the marketing at Better Barnes for over 10 years. I hired Christopher to come in and do an audit and help me because I feel like he offers expertise. You know, if I was looking at some kind of merger acquisition, you better believe I'd be talking to Richard about that before I did it. You know, I mean, it's there's value uh in this team here. I really I love being a part of it. Like I say, I feel like I'm the little guy in the conversation, but I love being a part of it. I said this in one of our previous conversations, but I'm definitely in the right room because they say if you're the smartest guy in the room, you're in the wrong room.

Shannon 48:26

So, you have you have described uh effectively any success I've had, which Court's had to hear 10 times just on this Iowa trip alone, you know, is that I just simply took the advice that other people gave, which is to always get around people smarter than you, and you subsequently learn just by uh hanging around and being a fly on the wall. And I if I haven't said it enough times, I'll say it again. Once I eventually make enough money, which I don't know when that'll be, uh, you know, I'd love to hire Richard to be my boss because I think he's just the epitome of uh the OG Shed Geek. He's the original, he's someone who just understands it at a high level in in multitudes. And so then where do you put a price tag on that? You know, like a lot of things become when do I help just because I want to help? I get calls weekly asking questions. What should I do here? What do you think about that? And after a while, you try to you try to determine like when is it effective? When does it make sense to charge for that information? And when am I just trying to be a helpful person because I'd like to be uh friendly and well thought in the industry or at least appreciated for the time and effort that I put in. Um, being able to do all these interviews now, six years, nearly 500 episodes, there's a huge catalog of information out there for somebody, whether they're getting started, but we've also tried to approach people for no matter how well off you are or in terms of knowledge in the industry. There's always a bigger fish. We heard that yesterday, you know, there's always a bigger fish that's seen more, done more, experienced more. Um we love being able to put those conversations to people together. I'm notorious for saying the best podcasts that happen will unfortunately never get recorded. Those happen around Shed events, those happen around the Shed Expo, those happen on Zoom calls every day. And I wish you had access to the whole library of the things that people are talking about, and we try to bring that to you on a on a plate that is in informational, right? Educational, entertainment, and safe, right? We let our competition advertise, we bring our competition on. We also respect collaboration. This is a perfect example of that existing in real time. And uh, you know, uh, yeah, when you were talking about hiring Chris, I was like, Well, yeah, it just makes sense. It just makes sense, and of course, you of course you should, because there's always something that you can learn. Um, and I promise you, if you're out there and you're in the shed industry and you don't have anything to learn, then we need you. We need you. Uh so come tell us. But do it professionally. You don't have to do it on the SSP and call us all bad names, right? Like just get on here and like state your case because there's a bigger fish that can poke holes in in every theory you've got, no matter how well thought you are in this industry. Uh, I will go ahead and say, Richard, I'm putting you at the top of that mountain for now. So, they're gonna have to come poke holes with you.

Richard Mashburn 51:36

Uh but watch something and you edit this later if you want, Shannon. But I have to do this. This is gonna be Tyler, you got in in 2003, right?

Lessons From 2008 And RTO Resilience

Tyler Mayhan 51:47

Yes, sir.

Richard Mashburn 51:48

How many of us actually have access to a human that did business in the shed business in 08 and 09? You were there. I would gamble to say that 0809 were a struggle, but as you came out, you were a stronger company and very successful in the transition in late 09 to 2010. Is that a sir?

Tyler Mayhan 52:16

We made a lot of changes, and several of our competitors uh were no longer competitors.

Richard Mashburn 52:22

Now, the countercyclical nature to Cord's original question the greatest thing, and the reason Richard Mashburn is not running three car dealerships right now and instead running seven shed lots is because the shed industry is incredibly unique in its ability to survive counter-cyclical downturn and actually thrive in economic hardship. And it's existed all 50 to 60 percent of its retail sales being rent-to-one, which is the only environment where a true product of a full retail price can be sold with no credit check, no income check, and no job. It is also the reality is people struggle to make jobs, make house payments, and things like that. Everything from fixing up their house, needing more space in their house, keeping stuff in their house. So, there's a success boom that comes with it, but there's also a struggle boom that comes in the shed industry that in 089, and there's very, very few people. I went on a journey a few years ago hunting people like Tyler that survived 08-09 because one of my tasks was to build a doomsday scenario. Think about RTO National's footprint at sheer scale at a national and go, what do we do if the whole country just goes to crap overnight? And how do we survive it when we've got rent-owned contracts and used buildings and stuff everywhere? So, find the people that actually live through what is considered the hardest economic environment in modern shed history that actually lines up to the industry. And how did they do? And most of them go, you know, it was tough for about five, six, seven months there. We really didn't get our footing right, but then we fixed this and we did that. And man, by the end of the time, we were better. And that's what led us to the success of 2013, 2015, 2018. You know, and that's what, you know, it wasn't until 1718 you started seeing the declines again. It's really interesting to find those people and get access to them and ask them those questions about what did they learn and what did they do, because that's a lot of the lessons I think Tyler will still teach today. And his willingness to invest and hire Chris and things like that today. But when you ask me what I see in the market, is I'll never tell you I don't see opportunity, whether it's good or bad, because this industry has this incredible flexibility. You need strength to survive five or six months of hardship and adaptability. You need your head on a pivot and a swivel so your eyes are up and looking, and you're knowledgeable and you understand your business and your data. But then you need to move with it because the US consumer loves the sheds. They love the buildings and they work in a downturn and an upturn. I'm not convinced this is a downturn yet. Not for a micro sense, but I do believe it is creating additional opportunity and movement even in the micro short term. And has not even done it at a scale of a big downturn. We're not looking at nobody's screaming recession right now. You know, they're just talking about cheap, you know, expensive gas. But you know, the same thing happened in 06. Gas got real expensive. If you remember, the data points are actually very similar. Um don't get me started there, but you know that that's a whole thing. But I do think when you start talking about it, the value in a consultative approach and how you think about it is putting that circle together to everything Shannon just said and Chris said. And but you know, I find so much value in being able to just listen to Tyler and go, you know, and he said what I thought he would say, which is, you know, you probably got the best education from Late 078. Because on the shed side, the material costs actually got hammered before the recession really was publicly raging with the real estate fault because your material prices ran up before they collapsed. And it was surviving the run up to the Great Recession and understanding what it did on the backside. And I think that's some of the opportunities you see now. If you need your can kill your business in an effort to shrink costs too fast and run your customers' way by surcharging everything because you think you can get away with it instead of flowing with it, tightening your belt, looking at your margins and your salaries, spending more money on advertising but smartly and making sure it's effective, putting together with a purchasing co-op or how your manufacturing works, and then moving forward with that. I think those are better answers. But I do believe, you know, people ask a lot, you know, what's in the crystal ball? By the fall, nobody's gonna care. That's my opinion. Except for the 16% that are out of business. And those that are out of business, they're out of business because they didn't pivot. And the top 30 just got 20% larger. Everybody else is stagnant or sitting, and the big ones moved and they grabbed market share and they've been waiting. And now's a chance to strike. Mocal sheds are sold in the sunbelt. Summer's not the huge season, but like last year we had a huge July.

Part Two Tease And Closing

PART 1 57:27

You're listening to part one of a two-part series. Please tune in on Friday to listen to part two.

OUTRO 57:35

Thanks again, ShedPro, for being the Shed Geek's studio sponsor. If you need any more information about ShedPro or about Shed Geek, just reach out. You can reach us by email at info@ ShedGeek.com. Or just go to our website www.shedgeek.com and submit a form with your information, and we'll be in contact right away. Thank you again for listening, as always, to today's episode of the Shed Geek Podcast. Thank you and have a blessed day.