Rent-To-Own Done Right

Rent-to-own sheds have a reputation problem, and it’s costing the shed industry more than people realize. Today we talk with Nick Garrard, general counsel for the NSRA, about what rent-to-own actually is, why the “it’s a bad word” stigma sticks, and how better education can reduce customer confusion, dealer frustration, and the kind of viral stories nobody wants attached to their brand.

We dig into the practical reasons customers choose rent-to-own in the first place: flexibility in uncertain times, the ability to make a decision without draining savings, and options when life changes fast like relocating for work, temporary storage needs, or shifting budgets. We also get candid about the tough parts, including how a small number of unhappy customers can dominate the public narrative while the majority of successful, quiet outcomes never get told.

Nick breaks down the difference between federally regulated consumer credit sales and state-regulated rent-to-own statutes, why most states have their own lease-purchase rules, and what that means for compliance if you operate across state lines. We also talk about the role of APRO and industry advocacy in Washington, DC, why local regulation can be healthier than one-size-fits-all federal oversight, and how training dealers plus proactive legal support can prevent problems long before they turn into lawsuits.

If you sell sheds, build sheds, haul sheds, or support the shed business with services, this is a must-listen for understanding rent-to-own sheds, customer education, and how to protect your operation. Subscribe, share this with a dealer or manufacturer friend, and leave a review with the biggest rent-to-own question you want us to answer next.

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This episodes Sponsors:
Studio Sponsor: Shed Pro

First Choice Metals
Velocity 360
J Money

Transcript

INTRO 0:00

Hello and welcome back to the Shed Geek Podcast. A quick word about our studio sponsor. One thing the team at Shed Pro has been hearing lately from Shed businesses is that many of them aren't struggling because of lack of demand. Things just kind of stall out. The lot is busy, but growth flattens, and it's not always obvious why. Usually it's something small. The website, the follow-up, how customers interact with you before they ever pick up the phone. So Shed Pro puts something together called the Shed Sales Audit. It helps you get a clearer picture of where you might be losing people. It takes a couple of minutes, and if you want to dig deeper, their team will walk you through it. Here's the thing nine times out of ten, the fix isn't more leads. It's a tighter operation underneath. That's the rest of the Shed Pro platform. Configurator, point of sale, RTO contracts, inventory, deliveries, and dealer tools. All in one place. From website lead to final delivery, one clean workflow. Start with the audit at shedpro.co/ shedgeek. Thank you, Shed Pro, for being our Wednesday studio sponsor and for building something that helps the industry.

Host Updates And How To Connect

Shannon 1:16

Okay, welcome back to another episode of the Shed Geek Podcast here from uh partly cloudy uh southern Illinois. We always like to give you our weather for some unusual reason. Um it's uh it's uh nearing the end of summer. Kids are going back to school, uh, and it is an interesting time to be in the shed industry. Uh today I'm joined by Nick Garrard. You guys will know him uh as the general counsel of the NSRA. Uh he has a law practice, uh I think it's C oh gosh, I'm gonna get it wrong. Uh I know it's Whitaker is in the name. Close.

Nick Garrard 1:55

Wilkins. Wilkins.

Shannon 1:57

Okay.

Nick Garrard 1:58

Wilkins Patterson.

Shannon 1:59

Yeah, Wilkins Patterson. That's what it says on the bill. That's all I know. Uh uh and uh before we get rolling, as usual, a few ways to stay connected with us. Give me a call uh here at 618-309-3648. If you'd like to promote your service uh or product on the podcast, we'd love to have you. Uh and if you'd like to tell your story, I believe that we are relational. So your testimony, therefore, your story podcast episode is valuable to other people. When you can share the different things you're seeing in the industry with the rest of the industry, it keeps us off of that island where we're by ourselves and we can uh learn from others. Info, I-N-F-O @ shedgeek.com, www.shedgeek.com for fill out a lead form and request any services that we ourself offer. Uh give us a like on our Facebook page and go check out the Shed Sales Professionals group. There's a lot of good information happening there. If you've got a plain community friend who would like to listen to the podcast, 330-997-3055 for them to call in and listen. Uh, and we even have on our newsletter a way for them to keep up with all the episodes. So, uh for anybody who wants anything, just reach out. We are we are welcome over here to uh phone calls. So, Nick, welcome back. Uh, I don't know, third or fourth time here on the podcast. And uh I really like this regular appearance that we have going of uh of uh uh a representative. We we've had a couple and probably we'll have more from the NSRA, um, you know, and uh some of the event committee we're hoping to get on and just kind of talk about the things that you guys are doing. Really excited about this year. I'm doing a breakout session, you know, uh, and I love the theme this year. Uh last year was great. The last two years have just been good events with really some phenomenal speakers I've begin to follow. Uh and I will say if you're in the shed industry and you're either thinking about RTO, want to learn more about it, want to know who some of the uh people are who work in it daily and can offer really good advice, you really should attend these this event. I mean, it just makes a lot of sense. Um I I've been maybe the last five years now, and uh watching it grow, you know, it's just really neat, Nick. And uh so, thank you for continuing to be part of the podcast and be supportive through your appearance here today.

Nick Garrard 4:34

Yeah, hey, I'm happy to do it. And uh it's always good to be here with you, visit. And um, you know, a lot of great things happening with the NSRA. I think the conference this year is gonna be awesome. Uh the event team has put together uh uh a dynamite lineup of speakers and breakout sessions. Um, you know, I'm like you, I'm gonna be one of the breakout sessions. So, we'll uh come up with something fun we can go over, but you know, make it fun, make it interesting. And then at the big room we have some, you know, nationally known speakers who have come in the past few years. And this year's uh you know, no exception. It's gonna be it's gonna be great. And um, you know, just getting everybody together again. It's all always good to be in the same room. So, uh back in Knoxville in a couple of weeks, you know, really at this point. And then uh yeah, we'll be we'll be ready to go. So should be a fun time for sure.

Shannon 5:41

It really is sneaking up on us pretty close. And I feel like I have a year to prepare every time, and the year seems to go by faster than every other year for some reason.

Nick Garrard 5:50

It does. Yeah. I don't know how that happens, but it um it happens for sure. And um, yeah, I mean, this thing is coming up quick, and they've they they've put a lot of time and effort into it. Like I said, it's gonna be it's gonna be a great event. I'm trying to get more and more people involved, extending invitations to anybody I can think of far and wide, because I want I want everybody to be there and be involved in the conversations that are that are going on in the room. And um, you know, we try to think the theme is belong, and we're the idea is you

Belong Theme And Industry Standards

Nick Garrard 6:30

know, everybody belongs at the table, a rising tide lifts all votes, and um so to get the industry all together, talking, coming up with new ideas in ways that we can serve the industry, and you know, keeping people accountable. Um, within the past couple of years, you know, we developed a code of ethics for members and people who are uh joining the organization. So, a lot of cool things are happening, membership is growing. Um you know, in addition to the one-year uh uh conference that we do, we've we're we've really been focused on uh how we can serve our members throughout the year. So, new things are coming out with that. We've been doing some kind of ongoing uh trainings and seminars electronically, and uh some more of those will be coming up. We'll probably do one in August heading into the conference. So yeah, yeah. If you don't have uh your tickets yet, we would only encourage you to do that. Think about a sponsorship, think about um um attending, becoming a member. There's a lot of opportunities out there.

Shannon 7:51

You know, we did last year, we became a member and we're excited about that, and we're thankful that uh, you know, we do get to belong and be part of that. And you know, in that in that belong theme, you know, I think that includes, you know, shed sellers, shed haulers, manufacturers, you know, whatever you do that touches the industry, your you know, product suppliers, service providers, you know, where you know the products you put on there are going on to uh a rent-owned contract, you know, going on to buildings that are going on to rent-owned contracts, and there's some level, uh uh, even if it's more of the bleeding edge of what we do, uh, it's good to know kind of what's happening in the industry. And rent-to-own is such a big part of what we do because we do all of these things. Uh, we haul sheds, we build sheds, we buy lumber, we buy components, we market, right? Like we advertise, like we have SEO, we do websites, we do all of those things you know serve a purpose, and that is to provide a customer with a shed, to provide them with storage. And that only happens in a few different ways cash and carry, traditional, federally regulated, you know, credit sale or rent town. And rent to own is the first, kind of kind of has been the first uh option for so many people. It's helped build so many companies because of its availability. Um creating, you know, the code of ethics not only inside of the members of the NSRA, but really just a an expanded ethical approach at our retail distribution model of getting storage to people in a way that uh you know our weakest link is still belongs. They still have a seat at the table where you can come and learn. Um and when you have something to teach, you can come and teach, you know. And if you want to be involved, you know, ask to be involved, you know. Um you know that so that's been great. We've it really enjoyed the last few years, and uh I've always enjoyed it, but you know, the last few years, some of these national speakers have really left you with some you know lingering thoughts.

Nick Garrard 10:16

Uh-huh.

Shannon 10:16

Yeah. You know.

Nick Garrard 10:18

That's right. And um it you know, the conference it's itself has evolved certainly over the past several years. Um, you know, when I first started, there were, you know, uh not nearly as many people in the room. And uh to see where we're where they've come to today. And certainly, uh it's all about the uh the board members and the and the membership who have put time and effort into it, and uh they've just done a great job. So, it uh it serves a very uh special purpose, I think, for the industry. And um I just like getting to see everybody, you know. Everybody we see the same folks meet new people, and I just enjoy that, the fellowship of it. Um you know, in addition to being general counsel for the NSRA, I do a you know a lot of work for uh rent owned companies and so it's for me an opportunity just to, like I said, see people that you know I work with and I talk to regularly, but we finally get to shake hands again. And uh this year it's gonna be fun because we're also doing, you know, it's a little different. It's a basically a two-day event where we're gonna have a um evening session and then a morning session the next day. And we'll get a chance to sit down to dinner together as a as a um entire association. And uh that that has been done in the past, but it has been it's been a while since that has been done, probably pre COVID, I'm thinking that that where we had something like that. And um you know, we've been doing a um I attended like the APRO event up in Washington, DC in April, their legislative conference. And one thing that that did stand out to me was that that you know, they sat down for a dinner as a group and everybody together and just had an opportunity to visit and spend time together. And, I think that's where really meaningful connections are made. And that's to me, that's worth the time and cost of the uh of the trip. Then on top of that, you get uh world-class, you know, like I said, speakers that um that can really they can really challenge you and challenge your business, challenge your way of thinking. And then hopefully you'll

What Rent-To-Own Actually Provides

Nick Garrard 13:20

go to some breakout sessions and Shannon will teach you, you know, so many awesome things that you can, you know, take back and actually implement. And that's what uh that's important.

Shannon 13:33

You know, my own personal journey through rent to own has taken so many different turns and twists that it is interesting, you know, from I remember initially uh probably the first time I ever learned about rent to own it in terms of like sheds, you know, for so and you mentioned April, and I want to come back to that, you know, when you think about the larger governing body, if you will, or association, you know, from all things rent-to-own, uh TVs and refrigerators and rent ass centers and errands and all the stuff, you know, to what our little niches that we break off here and have of storage. Um, but yeah, it's been an interesting journey. And I remember my brother actually buying a cook shed. Uh oh, I got I somewhere around 2000. I don't know, maybe it's been a while back. And uh, you know, uh just didn't even really know what it was then. And he purchased it on rent-to-own, and I remember he paid it off. He ended up selling it. There's a really cool story where he sold this to my father-in-law, and back then we didn't know a shed hauler from a hole in the ground. We had no idea where you would find someone to move a shed. And we were we were we were self-engineering rednecks where you know we thought we can just do this on our own, which we did, and Lord help me, don't ever repeat our process. But we drug it down a steep drive with a four-wheeler and uh got it up on blocks and back to single trailer underneath it.

Nick Garrard 15:05

Right.

Shannon 15:06

And with pancake tires on the 14-mile track to my father-in-law's, where he grabs a tractor to pull it off and goes straight up in the air, and it's set crooked where we left it, and it's there 15 years later. It's a very interesting, you know. So, that's the first time I heard about it. But then as I begin to work in the industry and eventually helping to build a territory in the Midwest for a company getting started. Um, you know, you learn so much uh about it. And I think you learn about it when you intentionally, you know, like explore, like attend these events, talk to people about it, uh, uh uh seek professional advice. Uh all these things to say that like it's really come full circle for me.

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Shannon 17:03

And I and I suppose there's just a stigma. We'll go we'll chase this rabbit trail a little bit because I've got some of these things wrought down that you mentioned that we can always come back. But there is a stigma, you know, like not just with the customer, but even in the industry, that rent to own is an unhealthy thing. And I don't know if we should chase this trail too far, but I'll give my two cents on it and feel free to share yours as people like this to me. This starts in the school system when you're learning about money. You know, or at home, when you're learning about money, whoever's teaching you about it. And if you're left to, you know, just your own understanding without seeking uh more professional advice, then you could see rent to own as a bad thing. But you know, the reality is if you move to a, you know, you're in you're in uh you're in uh Mississippi. If I move to Mississippi and do a job for eight months, I'm gonna rent a home because financially it doesn't make sense to buy a home. So that's where rent is valuable. And I think that it's the same way. I think there's a misnomer that says, um, when I sell a shed, or from a customer's perspective, when I buy a shed, like I that's just it. I'm buying it, I'm purchasing it, I'm not renting it. You would never say you're buying the home if you rented the home. If I moved to Mississippi for eight months and rent a home, I would never say I'm buying it. I would acknowledge very clearly I'm renting this because for a temporary time, this makes sense. Yeah. And that's what rent to own in a shed is. It's renting. Like you are you are renting each month, yeah, you know, this shed.

Nick Garrard 18:50

Exactly. Exactly. I mean, and no, I'll talk about this, you know, as much as you want because uh what when I really saw the benefit of the of the um the terms of the you know the rent to own lease, it serves uh a lot of different purposes. And it's not it is not simply a um you know a tool for um it's not a tool for everyone. It's certainly not something for everyone, but it serves a unique purpose. And it's not a it's not a bad word. It is not uh it is it is a wonderful word, it's a wonderful opportunity for people that need to be an ability to um you know to have a refrigerator, an air conditioner, a washer dryer, or in our case, a shed, um you know, for your backyard purposes. I was um reading an email yesterday actually about the consumer sentiment about money in general. I think there was a study at the University of Michigan that consumer sentiment about the realities of money and affordability of products and all had fallen to a level you know never before seen, certainly not in the past 50 years or however long this survey had been going. And the point of the email was to say that this is this is where rent to home shines for the company, for the people that um that are you know maybe facing a short-term

Myths Financial Literacy And Customer Clarity

Nick Garrard 20:40

uh you know problem with money or you know, they're moving in six months to get a better job. You know, people are much more mobile now. And so you see these situations like this where somebody needs um a washer dryer, uh a backyard shed because we're going to be storing all this stuff because we're gearing up to move in you know six or eight months. Um and then you know, you have the ability at that point to terminate the lease without penalty. You have the ability to buy it, say, and then and then move it on your own, take it with you. It gives you so many more options and um that than a typical finance sale or even a cash sale gives you. So, the flexibility is what becomes a key part of the transaction itself. And I think that aspect of it is going to be what uh continues to make uh rent owners strong, even in the midst of uh you know questions about consumer uh uh you know. How consumers are feeling about their money, how they're feeling about the market, the price of things. The fact that this transaction actually provides you greater flexibility in in a changing market or in a market where you're uncertain about where the future's going to take the in six months.

Shannon 22:20

So, there's a there's a just a segment. And I think you said it, you know, sometimes where you land is just it's not for everybody. But there is a certain segment of you know, B2B side that I've seen, the manufacturers that or retailers who are selling who say rent to own's not for me. And I listen to their uh their reasons because you got to get down to the reasons to understand it uh and hear them. And part of that is you know, uh, we don't want to go have to pick up a unit uh that someone has decided to rent to own. Uh we don't want to have to go pick it up, and maybe that's for a variation of reasons. Maybe the customer gets hostile or refuses to turn over the asset. Maybe it's because there's just a I don't know, just uh just a lack of like wanting to see that somebody who hasn't made good on their rental uh uh fees every month, you know, maybe they just feel bad about having to displace the stuff that they've used this shed for. And I think from my perspective, at least the companies I've dealt with, I've always seen companies go above and beyond with the customer to try and not solve that.

Nick Garrard 23:47

Yeah, yeah, I see that much more in this industry than I do even in you know a typical financial uh transaction. Um you know, that that's been my experience is the working with the customer, um, helping them, you know, make that next payment or doing what they can to you know help them along the way. That's so the reality is whether it's rent on a traditional finance, a car lease, you know, whatever it is, you are going to have those situations. Uh I like for those to be outliers where we don't, you know, we're where something's gone wrong or you know, a customer's been hostile or whatever. But and by and large, I think, I think those are. I think um you know, these companies that that are associated with NSRA are um are very you know knowledgeable and aware of that reality and do what they can to uh work with their customers. And uh, you know, like I said, it it's no system's perfect, but I think I think this provides uh both sides with a really great um ability to work together.

Shannon 25:12

And there's a there's a greater there's like a greater conversation there that exists around educating the customer, let alone, well, really the industry, let alone the customer, because again, we can't replace the school system's lack of financial awareness or education in families or in children as they grow up, or even what people experience inside of their family. Oftentimes, you know, financial lack of discipline does cross over generationally, you know. So, when you don't learn, when you don't go read rich dad, poor dad, or when you don't try to try to, you know, like understand money more, oftentimes, you know, customers just see this as, you know, uh, they don't know about consumer credit reporting. Uh, they don't understand, you know, federally regulated credit sales versus a state regulated, you know, uh rent-to-owned system. They think I pay, it builds credit. No matter what, I'm paying somebody some money, it builds my credit, my credit gets score gets better. And if they don't understand that, and oftentimes, I mean, I might I get in trouble for saying this, but you know, uh retailers, you know, or manufacturers might not have the full picture. I don't think I have the full picture. I think I've got a fairly decent grasp because of people like yourself and others that have kind of helped pour into this industry. But you know, we can't take on the financial literacy of all of the community, but we can do a really good job of attempting to control what is within our ability to control, and that is educating the industry.

Nick Garrard 26:57

Well, and I'll tell you another thing is I want the rent-town companies to uh and I try to ask them to reach out to talk to their customers about all the you know the good the good stories because what happens is the one out of 10, it may be one out of 50, it may be one out of a hundred that um that have some complaint or you know, they're just a uh uh a customer that's never going to be happy. And they they're the ones that are constantly calling in to your company and talking to your employees, and you know, they're constantly complaining about this, that, or whatever. And you have 99 other company, you know, customers that are simply paying their bill every month and you know, you don't hear from them. But those are the ones that have the stories that you need to be talking to and promoting because those are the those are the people that are um you know using a shed because um, you know, they just got you know a new a new job and are moving in a few months. And you know, those are the ones that are that have the stories that we need to be telling as an industry that provide um you know a different side from what the disgruntled company the disgruntled um customer is running and you know, plastering on Facebook or talking to the local newspaper about or trying to get the TV man out there about something, you've got though and though and those, I get it, take up a lot of your uh attention because those customers are constantly kind of in your face or you know constantly calling, you're constantly having to deal with them. But if um if we if we really focused on the other side of the equation, the other 99, and got them to start telling their story to your company and let your company promote uh those

Better Stories Beat Loud Complaints

Nick Garrard 29:10

people and who they are and what they're doing and why this transaction works for them. You know, that is where we have to be, I think, better. And that's one uh way I hope that we can um you know improve our storytelling with the association and um and all the businesses because you know I was like I told you, I was with um the APRO group up in Washington. We were doing some uh meeting with lobbyists or legislators and their staff and everything. And uh one story stuck out to me, and that was of a lady that I was walking around with, um, meeting with the legislators, and she told them uh, you know, her story of, of course, she's in the TV and appliance, you know, space.

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Nick Garrard 31:19

But she was able to share with them that you know, a single mom who couldn't get her um, who couldn't have a refrigerator to uh store her insulin, um, or who was having to go to the laundromat every night and wash clothes, and she's paying, you know, however much a week to do laundry at the laundromat, not able to ever afford a washer and dryer, but she can put that washer and dryer in her house. And for about the same amount of money as she's spending at the laundromat, she now has one in her house. And at the end of the term, she's gonna own it. And the same thing with the um, you know, with the with the uh refrigerator. The lady she was mentioning had um kids who were diabetic, and you know, this was the transaction that allowed her to be able to uh uh maintain or you know keep the insulin in her house. So, those type stories exist, they're out there, and they're in the shed industry too. We just have to uh go find them. And um we have to be, you know, not so reactive when the bad stories and the bad you know news comes in. We've got to be more proactive, I think, in reaching and telling our stories. I think that's why this podcast is important and you know, social media and in general for that aspect of it, because it's not a it's not a bad word. It is it is a wonderful opportunity for the right people.

Shannon 32:58

And so, you know, it gets it gets the word out quickly, you know, so like it's another way and opportunity to get information out, uh, you know, which is one of my favorite things because I remember driving back through Springfield, Illinois, and I called a dealer and he said, you know, where else do I find information? I just need information on this industry, and there's so much lacking, and this kind of comes back to a theme that we've been saying for years, kind of like, you know, your lady who was wanting to get a washer, you know, uh it really come down to like there's a need for laundromat services, but there's also a desire to want to own that yourself, and maybe you have stressed or strained credit that you're trying to rebuild or trying to build originally. And in my 21-year-old son's case, you know, he's you know, you know, they don't trust you when you're 21, and you gotta have some, you know, some uh some examples of success with your bill pay and all that stuff. Anyway, it just uh you know it gives people the opportunity otherwise. And I and I know I always like to answer the you know the word, you know, it's expensive. And I say, well, compared to what? I mean, compared to the lawnmower setting out in the in the rain and rusting, is it expensive? Because like, you know, like there's just um there's things we can go down as we begin to like make these comments without rebuttal that just say, Well, wait a minute, compared to let's if we're gonna do that exercise, uh then let's do it. And if not and your mind's settled, then it's not on me to the onus is not on me, in other words, to change your opinion about that if you're you know, just feel that way. Um, but what will happen is people will use it. I wanted to come back to APRO and especially since you mentioned, you know, legislative, you know, approach. And I put this down a quick jot here on my notes, and you tell me what your thoughts are. You know, this starts at the lawmakers, you know, and then APRO is sort of a governing body of sort, and NSRA is sort of a niche down, you know, shed specific, product-specific section of April. Although we don't answer to APRO, to my knowledge, you may be able to give us a little bit more insight on that. Uh, but then that that gets down to the manufacturer, the dealer, and then to the customer. And uh, and that's not to suggest that any of those, you know, being at the bottom of that totem pole is less important. As a matter of fact, the lower it goes, the more important that this knowledge get out there. So

Federal Credit Vs State Rent-To-Own

Shannon 35:40

education is the key. Um but help me out here a little bit, Nick. What does it look like? And give a give a uh a nerd or geek explanation, as I would say, here to the people of how federally regulated credit sales are they differ from state regulated rent to own. Can you share a little insight there for the person who's who wants to understand the deeper, you know, like way it works?

Nick Garrard 36:12

Well, I mean, most importantly for us is that we are not um in the crosshairs of any federal regulation, um, unlike you know consumer credit sales, which are more federally regulated. And I, you know, I don't I don't practice in that industry, so I'm making up some of that as I go probably, but uh it's uh it's a much more heavily regulated space. And um, I'll give you an example. Um well I'll say this first. Pretty much every state has a uh lease, purchase, or rent-to-own statute. There's a handful of or three or four that don't, one being North Carolina. And we've talked about that probably in the past, but North Carolina does not have a um state rent-to-one statute, but they do have a retail installment sales statute. So, um they have a they have a what's a credit sales statute, and so um effectively we have to sort of reverse engineer the um that and provide a lease to the consumers which are um specifically not uh governed by their retail installment sales so that it can be considered a true lease. But um, you know, in pretty much every other state, you have a state-specific um rent-to-own statute. And luckily for us, good for us, those have been um, they're not uniform. You know, some are um easier to work with than others, but um you know, they do a good job of explaining the transaction, and it um it's not been the focal point of any sort of uh federal uh oversight at this point. It's been left to the sound discretion of the states, and the states have been as the as it should be, and the states have uh you know regulated themselves for this transaction. So, in my opinion, it's a much better way to do it. Uh keeps things local. You know, you can operate in your state and be perfectly happy and know everything, or you can, you know, operate in all 50 states and you know be subject to their various rules and regulations. But um I like it. I like that much that approach much better.

Shannon 39:07

And do you feel like you had mentioned you know that we've sort of worked to uh maybe you didn't say it this way, but so far that we haven't landed on the radar of the heavy regulations. Do you feel like part of that has been your work, Ed Wynn's work, you know, throughout the years to help to organize and basically protect that space so that we don't invite regulation upon us, which would ultimately, I don't think people realize, affect us so heavily given the state of uh the rent-owned penetration in our industry as a whole. Like we need your professionalism, your assistant Ed's years in in this, uh as well as other attorneys who have worked, I'm sure, you know, in lockstep to try and like avoid any of that regulation which allows us to do business freely and prop up probably, who knows, 50% of all sales or 40% maybe. I don't know. You guys are working to gather data like that, I assume, through the NSRA and through membership, and that's why all this is important. But like, wouldn't you agree that like it helps keep the wolves away? Let's say at that point.

Nick Garrard 40:28

Oh, yeah. Well, and that that legislative conference that I went to back in April with APRO, I mean, they're really doing the heavy lifting on that, keeping uh you know nationwide, keeping legislators, senators, uh, their staff, keeping them um educated on our transaction and just letting them know that uh this is not a federally regulated transaction. This is not really on your on your uh desk to deal with, and we like it that way. We don't want it to be on your desk to deal with. And if you see something coming down the pipeline, if uh somebody starts trying to consider some uh federal legislation on this, we want them to have uh someone that they know that they can reach out to talk to and figure out what's going on and why this would be important or not important or what the point of this potential legislation is. So uh, you know, that was really eye-opening for me going and doing that. And um, you know, they've been doing that for years and years. This was my first year to do it, but yeah, they've have um really done uh the heavy lifting on being in DC and um helping that uh you know, helping the wolf stay away, like you said. But we had the head of uh the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau come and speak to us. And that was um, you know, I think there was some concern back a few years ago that that that bureau was going to try to be um or was going to try to regulate us in a way. And now, you know, the guy that's in there, I think, I think he told us they cut, you know, close to a thousand jobs. I mean, they've slashed that bureau. And um I think I think he told me, or one of them said, you know, now the only people that are in that in that office are two guys in a fax machine.

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Advocacy That Keeps Regulation Away

Shannon 44:16

I feel like, you know, as they're more successful in that endeavor, you know, it is biting the hand that feeds you in some ways, right? Like it you're the how do I say this? Like good intentions, you know, is to protect consumers. But is the protection of consumers taking a decision that they make on their own away from them and then not allowing them because you believe that you know better how to spend a consumer's money than they know how to spend their money.

Nick Garrard 44:52

Yeah, exactly. And that's the um, yeah. I mean that that's that's that's when government is at its worst, isn't it? Yeah, in my opinion. And they come in and tell you how beneficial they can be for you because they know better than than you. And we we don't like that, we don't want that. And um, you know, what wasn't there a Ronald Reagan line on on that at some point about uh about uh let's let's forget how I'm from the government, I'm here to help with that one.

Shannon 45:27

Exactly. That's it. You know, uh as as they as they federally regulate us through the credit bureau and tell us just how good we're doing on our spending while being in national debt. Exactly. Yeah, it's kind of uh it's ironic. I think I saw a post the other day that said uh funny how the deer all belong to the government when you when you go to buy a tag, but not when you hit one with your car. Uh and I thought that was pretty clever. Um it really it really does come down to a mindset change, and I think you have to almost have like a like I understand that you don't want the name of your company going out and uh and

Dealer Training And Proactive Legal Calls

Shannon 46:10

uh being on the side of a truck and maybe getting in and in caught up in a social media viral video where you're out there removing the the shed from a customer that they believe they purchased because they they didn't take the time to understand, which they should have because they've been read the contracts uh that they that they they rented. Do you think that there's more education? Uh I'm trapping you here on this comment. Please forgive me. Do you feel like there's more education that needs to happen either from the rent-to-owned companies that do provide services for companies or manufacturers who do their own rent-to-owned? But but at a minimum, they put out a dealer network online or in person that sells sheds via rent-to-owned. And like even the dealer itself, a lot of dealers I've heard say it's not my problem, it's the rent-to-owned company's problem. Uh and I feel like education helps solve that because if you would change that mindset to helping the rent-owned company, uh, it makes them stronger, therefore providing more opportunities to you as a manufacturer. Um, so I'm kind of trapping you here, but like what would you say to the industry from an educational perspective? And I and I think that's what things like the NSRA and hopefully the podcast, you know, even you know, displays is like have even sometimes hard and difficult conversations, but at a minimum, talking about stuff. That way people get a better understanding. What would your advice be on the educational side?

Nick Garrard 47:47

Yeah, the more the better. I mean, um, rental dealer agreements are really good and important to have as a rent-to-own company, having a uh a dealer agreement that you can reference with them and help train them. Um as much as your staff at the rent-to-own company is going through, you know, training and um, you know, if you've joined the membership, you know, encourage your dealers to do the same thing. Encourage your dealers to come to conferences, um, you know, be a part of the membership. Uh look, I have to talking about training, I have to train creditor or debtor lawyers a lot on in bankruptcy, you know, when there's a a new bankruptcy case coming in, but it's the same thing. You know, I have to go through and explain to the lawyer who's representing the customer about what exactly this transaction is. And rather than just, you know, going to court and fighting about it, if I pick up the phone and call this lawyer in, you know, Texas or you know, Montana or wherever, I bet you 80% of the time we can talk it out and resolve it. And I think it's the same uh the same thing that goes on in you know within the industry. It's just um communication, contact, knowing who you're dealing with, uh picking up the phone and calling. That that to me has gone a long way. That's just my experience where I've um cut out a lot of you know litigation time and expense by just making a phone call and trying to explain things and educating the other lawyers. Um doesn't work always, but uh you know it helps. It helps. So, I think I think we gotta do the same thing here.

Shannon 49:51

And uh that that might even be hard for people to consume in the sense that there's different disciplines in law, just as ways there is anything else. And going to law school does not mean that you know everything about rent to own. And uh there's just so much to learn, and and that's where you're using harvesting the power of what you know you guys have built over at the NSRA, uh to serve, you know, to serve that yeah.

Nick Garrard 50:20

Yeah, exactly. I was gonna say, uh, you know, I'm I'm no exception to this. Uh you're talking about your your earliest experiences. And um I was thinking back, and you know, when I when I first started doing some work in this in this industry, or when I joined this law firm, I think I had um two files from a company, and I thought, you know, well, maybe there's maybe there's something to this, and maybe there's a maybe there's an organization out there that deals with this and association, and I found that, I found April, I found N SRA. Um But I got a call one day and it was like somebody said, uh, do you do you handle bankruptcy files for uh for these for this company too? And I said, absolutely I do. Let me now let me go get a bankruptcy book and figure out how to do it. But um so yeah, I mean going to law school certainly doesn't prepare you for for everything, but I think over the course of the past, I guess it's been uh almost close to 15 years now. Um, you know, uh you learn a lot, you meet a lot of people, and um, you know, so just having those conversations, meeting yearly, um picking up a book, reading it about, you know, and I'll help you. I'll I love uh educating companies on things they can do and ways they can manage their files and manage expenses, and you know, I'd love to do that.

Shannon 52:05

You know, and you even did a webinar recently uh uh you know on bankruptcy. So, people need to take a look at that. And I probably need to get with NSRA and throw in the newsletter, you know, when you're doing that so that people know uh it's just another way for them to see to attend if they're not sure, you know, that it was going on. Maybe we can help bring some awareness to it because again, a rising tide does lift all boats when we can do that. So yeah, uh Nick, I know you're up against uh a hard stop here, and I've got some things to do too. I always enjoy speaking with you. Uh, I think we should keep a running series going regularly just to just to talk about what's happening in the industry, what's happening with rent to own. I think we can get more granular, and and it's fine to stay topical at times too, but I always appreciate you what you do for the industry. We'll be there at the NSRA this year in Knoxville. We can't wait to see you. And we encourage everyone to go dealers, haulers, manufacturers, you know, there's a lot of it's not just uh a great event to attend. You know, you're really gonna get some of the best information sitting around the table uh talking to folks. That's really where so much of the networking plays uh a key factor in what we do. So any final thoughts you want to share, Nick? I know you're up against a timeline.

Nick Garrard 53:26

So no, I just thank you for having me. Um, I would say anybody out there that has you know questions or um legal questions or otherwise, send Shannon an email or send me an email. Maybe the next time, if there's any uh questions out there we can answer on a podcast, we can go through them together and uh do that. So um yeah, reach out with anything you got. I always say it's better to be you know proactive on the front end than reactive on the back end. So, if you have a legal issue that comes up, let's attack it. And um, you know, it tends to go much better that way.

Shannon 54:08

That sounds great, Nick. Thank you so much for joining us. We'll see you at Knoxville at the NSRA. Uh, we wish you nothing but continued success. And for those who want to know more about rent to own or how to get started or legal questions, give Nick a call. He's uh he's just such a great, such a great guy. He'll be able to take care of you. So, thank you, Nick, so much for being on.

OUTRO 54:30

Thank you for listening to another episode of the Shed Geek podcast. A quick thank you to our studio sponsor, Shed Pro. Head over to shedpro.co/ shedgeek and take their free Shed Sales audit. It takes just a few minutes and it gives you a clearer picture of what's going on underneath. Thank you for listening as always. And thank you, Shed Pro, for being this year's Wednesday studio sponsor on the Shed Geek Podcast.