Burapa Swallows and Ladder Pullers

The Burapa swallow is one of the few birds in the world that builds its nest out of its own saliva.  A self designed refuge.  As survivors, we are that refuge for each other. Join us as we catch up with each other, Whisper explains what a ladder puller is and we talk about imposter syndrome.

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 That thing that you, that, Woo, woo? Woo won't. Oh my. I told Tim that last night. Woo. Woo. Woo. Won't he like almost spit out? Yeah. That is so I told Luca this morning to look at the same direction. She was like, Holy fuck. That's hilarious. Yes. That's what happens when I can't sleep.

Like my brain goes boom. This is funny. Oh my goodness. You're such a genius. You're robbed of sleep, but you're being rewarded with genius who won't frickin love that. Welcome to better flies and bravery. Oh my gosh, it literally feels like forever since we've done a recording. So And it probably has been life has been coming at us fast and hard, I gotta say fast and hard, fast and hard and not in a good way.

There's no, no, no lubrication. So

no, there's there's been there's been a lot. But there's also a lot of good stuff too. So I can't, I can't do that. It's not all been bad. But it's been, it's been a juggle. That's for sure. For me there's been change at the organization that I'm working with and the founder and executive director  needed to take a more back row seat because they had to go help care for their in laws who had gotten fairly, you know, not doing well health wise.

So we brought in a new executive director and There was a person who was working with us that was  strongly anti woke, do you want to say? They were very,  conservative and started having some problems with the fact that we, you know, were supportive of the LGBTQ community.

And so they, took a different job. , all of a sudden I was  the oldest employee at the organization. I was like, how did this happen?  The founder is still  the, chair, the board chair, and they're still involved. , she called me the other day and she was like, I miss you.

, you one time said like that, you consider me a mentor. What if we had weekly calls and I kept , mentioning, 

people paid thousands of dollars for this woman to train them and she's like, let's have a call. What's happening right now? Yeah. Is that why it's wild? That's exactly how I feel when they're like, oh, would you like to have a call with Janja Lalic? I'm like yeah. I mean, right?

When I told you in the email when she was like, we need to get you guys business cards. I was like, I almost started crying.. I It's amazing. Imposter syndrome, man. I told you the Neil story, right? Yeah. That's really good. 

since we are talking about, so I'm the  longest standing employee now at non employee person at the, at our organization. , and I'm taking over the programs. , that's really great and exciting. Yeah.   A new person also came in, a young woman and.

She's going to be helping with the admin , and program coordinating. And we have a new executive director who is fantastic. I love her. So it's, it's all,  really good stuff. , I'm still surrounded by these incredible people doing incredible work. , I already turned pretty much everybody in my organization on to the fact that  Cult , children are trafficked people, you know, people traffic children.

And so, so they're already  on board of us starting to include.  Born and cult survivors into our programs, the program, and I'm working with a couple different people to write this program. 

, somebody walked in our, our office and said, Hey, I want to do a fundraiser for you at my restaurant. That's happening November 2nd. There's this voting thing for the city that we're in that's that's going on.

We're gonna have our first like holiday open house party. And then this, I have to have everything set up for the new programs by December 14th, which was when we're going to go to this huge gala and get an award in front of like 500 people.  So there's a couple things going on,  it's been busy.

It's all, it's all good things, but it is definitely,  I'm way, way out of my comfort box in, in a lot of this stuff. And,   I heard this story about Neil Gaiman, who is a writer. I actually looked it up to see if it's, and, and it, and he actually wrote it  and this story is true.

So Neil Gayman is a incredible prolific and famous author. He, he has written all kinds of things that have been made into movies and plays. If there's an award for writing,  he's gotten it. He wrote,  Good Omens, which is like the TV show, right? , he wrote Stardust, he wrote, I'm talking, these are movies, these are things that have been made into movies there's , accolades upon accolades, , he's one of the more famous authors in the world, , he got invited to some sort of gathering for, , sort of shakers and movers, right, these people, and Yeah.

, he was there thinking like,  I'm not same as these people. , these are people who have, you know, they've done this, they've made discoveries , they've started,  whole. Organizations , they've done all these huge things. Like I'm, I just feel like I'm kind of out of, like, I'm out of my depth.

I'm not like, I'm, I'm not here. And the second day he started talking to  this other guy that he met, because , his name was also Neil and they were first, they were just talking about, you know, like having the same first name, Neil, and this,  the second Neil said to him, like. I keep saying, how did I get here?

Cause I just, , I don't feel like I'm part of, of these, of this whole thing, , I didn't do anything special. I just, I just went where I was told. That's what he said. I just went where I was told it was Neil Armstrong Armstrong who walked on the moon. Only. Only. Only one of like, what, , how many people in the world.

And I guess that was like kind of like a turning point for for the writer Neil Gaiman at the time where he was like, If Neil fucking Armstrong has imposter syndrome, , obviously we all have it then, like, I mean, Yep, it's just a human thing. It's just such a human thing, and I do understand the person that I heard the story from of how that changed their perspective , it's like that the same thing  when you're going to give a speech and everybody's naked.

If, if you come to the understanding , that everybody has imposter syndrome, it kind of changes a little bit. Like, okay, all of these people are also profoundly nervous and uncomfortable or out of place or whatever. It kind of changes how you can walk into a room. Does that make sense? I just thought it was such a fantastic story.

Neil Armstrong. It's amazing. It's crazy.

That's a big perspective shift, you know? Yeah. But yeah, seriously. It's. Wow. Yeah. It's. It's a lot that's been going on, but I feel like there's a lot that I'm learning in my personal life too. And just my growth. And yeah. Yeah. And I've been well, my husband had been walking around for several years with a broken wrist.

What is that? I was used to doing like walking around with a broken wrist. So his bones had like decayed in the middle of his wrist and he's had wrist problems since he was 14 and broke it when he was playing football. And so this is the fourth time in his life that he's been in a cast on the same exact spot.

So , they  ground out all these bones and put in a bunch of pins and stuff. So then, you know, we've had to go back and forth to town, which is. , three hours both ways of driving. And then

I was sick, very sick. I'm still a bit sick, but I'm coming out of it. And I kept getting pulled into work because other people were sick. And then this last week We were on the way to get my husband's cast off and he had been vomiting nonstop. He'd been sick for a long time. Cause remember he, he ended up in the ER a couple of months back and it was the same thing, just like nonstop vomiting and sweating and like fevers and chills and all this stuff.

So they thought it was his appendix. So this time they took it out and. They said it wasn't like terrible, but the tip of it was quite inflamed. And then he had a bunch of adhesions from the mesh. Cause he had a hernia surgery a couple of years back. So they did a laparoscopic appendectomy and then went in there and cleaned up all those adhesions as well.

So did they test his, his pancreas and stuff? Cause it's just this. Like, it's so similar to what happened to me. It's like, so similar. No, I don't think they did. Because they took out my gallbladder and was like, oh, it's not deceased. Right. Thanks. Thanks. Yeah, exactly. Oh, it was your, it was your pancreas.

They did. They didn't go straight to my pancreas because like, I don't have, like, I don't have the alcoholisms history, which is what  points them towards pancreatic issues, but , maybe 80 percent comes from alcohol, but that leaves 20 percent of other issues, you know, so it's kind of.

Well, healthcare in the United States is it's own nightmare anyway, but he's been feeling is he's been feeling better since, since then. Much better. Yes. And he started eating he couldn't eat at first and then he finally started eating yesterday and so he's eating pretty good now. He's it's still kind of like soft foods only, you know, like mashed potatoes and pudding and eggs.

He had some ramen, starting to eat a few more solid things, but yeah, it's just been, it's just been crazy. Like, you know, whenever some kind of crisis like that happens, every other freaking thing that I have to do completely vanishes. , I don't see anything else. I'll miss deadlines and all of this other stuff because I can only concentrate.

On this extreme emergency that's right in front of me right now, and it's taking everything I can just to keep myself together and act like a person and all the things that I have to do to be a human and deal with this extreme crisis. Yeah. So I had like deadlines and all these other things that I was supposed to be doing and I missed and you know, but oh well, right.

I mean we're alive and he's. He got very, you know, sweet and weepy. I did. This has all made me realize what I have and I'm so thankful for you and all of the things you've done for me. And then. With the Lovett Center on October 22nd, we're going to be doing an inaugural storytelling event where they have, it'll be a 90 minute session, three survivors sharing their stories and 30 minutes each.

And so I. I have had the honor of being one of them and I read him the story and he cried and cried and cried and cried and he was like, I'm sorry I've put you through so much dear. It was so sweet and he's like, I'm trying, I'm trying and like, I know that's why we're still together because if you weren't trying, I would have had to say bye bye.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So yeah, it's been very. Like you said, big difficult things, but good good is coming out of it and good things are definitely on the horizon. Lots. Yeah.  If you had met me five years ago and told me that this shit would be happening right now, like all of this and where we'd be and the things, I would have been like, no fucking way. I never would have believed it.

Ever. I'm still picking coins out of the corner of my couch so I can, you know, like, buy some ramen. Like, I mean, I'm being stupid, exaggerating, but like, I was definitely not. In a space where I, where I, where I ever felt like, Oh, I have dreams that I can actually make happen right now. Right. You know, I mean, it used to just be like my dream was like, okay, you know, like keep my kids alive and hopefully give them what I didn't have and stay alive long enough for that.

I mean, that was my dream. That was my goal. And then it, you know, then it became. Wait a second. Like maybe, you know, maybe there is some work that I can do and heal and I do deserve to, you know, care for myself. And then, and now we're actually in a place where I'm like, Oh my gosh,  my dreams can be bigger than, , staying alive.

, lots of us have talked about  the day that we,  got out or, , that day when you finally have been out longer than you were in after, you know, being born in or whatever.

Not there yet. But I, I think that's kind of like cool though we never had, good birthdays. No, never. Not, not for a second. And,  there was always so much pressure on us for everything, right? , I tend to get a little bit more sort of  morose, is that right?

Am I saying it right? Yeah. , around my birthday time, , like, I'm not doing good enough for this age, and I'm about to turn, and why haven't I, , contributed to whatever.  I mean, I think people that have done big things like us, being born in cults and gotten out, , it would be really cool to, like, make a second birthday just be more common thing, you know?

Like, this is the day, this is my second birthday. , because you were born into a place you weren't supposed to be born into, like, whoop de doo, I was born into trauma, I was born into war, , I was born a prisoner of war, yeah, so it's hard to like, , yay, my birthday.

But you have these other big dates, right? Like you said,  March 10th. , that should be your second birthday. , that should be your party. You know? I always celebrate it. Yeah, of course. I always make a big deal to me. It is.

It is. It really, really is. Unfortunately, the day that I officially count as, as being out escaping the cult fully and because I put my feet down  in America free happens to be the birthday of the guy that founded the organization. Wow. Founded the cult. So even though. It's a celebration for me.

 That's complicated. , I think that  should be a more common thing with us, , , we need a different birthday.  , we need something that we did, , that we weren't just victims of something that we did, , you know, we escaped or whatever that is, where it's like, 

that's actually my real birthday. That's when I was actually came into this world and said, Hey, what's up, you know? Yeah. Well, it's the day that I decided to take my life back. You know? Yeah. That's the day that I decided that I actually wanted to live and not just try and exist and find happiness, but you know, that I actually wanted to  be alive.

Yeah, of course. I still struggle with that too, but, you know, I just feel like that was the day that I finally  said, fuck you to my background. And I said, I'm going forward when I don't care.

Yes, exactly. That's why I love that. The name of that course that you're making, because that's exactly what it is. Yeah. There's no amazing. So are you girl that, that means a lot to me too, that just thinking about  everything that we have, we've had to, we've had to build  without structure, without foundation, without fucking building material.

Yeah. You know? So it's like the Burapa Swallows, right? Build their nest out of spit. Right? Yeah. Remember? And then they eat them. Yeah. Burapa swallows in Thailand. I always thought that was interesting, you know, because most birds build their nest out of sticks or mud or they build it out of their own saliva.

So I think we're, we're the bird where the Burapa swallows, it sounds kind of French Burapa.

. I just remember thinking it was really gross. Did anybody want to eat a bird spit?

But yeah, I mean, talk about fucking self reliant man. That that's, that's some fucking self design right there.  Like the thing that the survivor said in our group, who do you turn to when you don't have that structure in your life? You turn to us, you turn to the other survivors, we turn to each other and that's where we find our support. 

  We were also having the writing workshop on the 28th, and I'm, I'm, oh yeah, I'm gonna so two events,  I'm reading  the Guinevere Turner reading event. All right, so yeah, oh my gosh, that's so cool. , it's interesting and the different ways, you know, that we've been involved with with the Lalich Center., there's gonna always be these two main names that come up whenever anybody talks about cult specialists.

And one is is Dr. Steven Hassan and the other is, is Dr. Janja Lalich and we've talked a few times and I'm not, not at all trying to  put down, , anybody's worker or what they might be doing. But we were talking about , how Dr. Lalich, she's so, community minded.

She's just like, , what can we do for you guys? What can we do for each other? What can we do? And, and that, that spirit, that, that vision is creating what's starting to get created over there. And like, they're making spaces for  born in cult kids , that has never been, never had spaces before, anytime you went into any type of cult space , it was always with, , Both first and second or what have you generations but for the people that were born in  and raised in their scene , it's a different type of healing that's needed and a different type of trauma, even, and,  the , let's make spaces let's be at forefront of that  and start making this happen so

, every single time , we get the news,   another  person that we knew in our community , lost their fight  with depression took their life. And it's just like.  The need,  is  so big to build these communities , and to make space and support spaces.

And obviously , they can't be grown fast enough for , what the need is, but for the first time in history . These spaces are being created  for anybody,  listening to this. We both,  want to want to say how much we personally have just benefited and grown from finding community, within our born in communities, because  we also have our own  private communities,  , the kids born into the children of God,  we have those communities, they are closed,  they're only within us so that, , if you want to talk to somebody about what JJT is, they'll understand.

, I put a post on social media yesterday. My cat, , oh, I have a whole fucking refrigerator saga story, but fridge was broken. I was trying to empty it out. My,  kid kept, she kept jumping into the fridge. And so I just made a post and , I said, she's my happy helper and I need a name for, for our JJT team

and I mean, I wrote it like knowing that the only two people who have ever been born and raised the children of God are going to know what that meant. JJT stood for Jesus Job Time, which is chores. That's all it was, is chores. But yeah, anyways,  we have those communities , that are closed communities as each of these different,  cults will have, , they also have their own closed community where  they have spaces that are  only for those that were , in that cult.

But. What we've been starting to experience and be involved with at the Knowledge Center that has also been so healing and so supportive is meeting other,  born in people that don't have our same story and yet have our same story, you know, and, and that's, it's just kind of been expansive.

It just feels healing of, , it's not just closed within this one community and I'm not crazy,  because sometimes if  the only other people that you know, have, gotten out of being born in a cult are this people that were born in your cult.

It can cut the reflection mirror reflection is a little bit too much,  you know, when you hold up a mirror to the mirror and it's like ad infinitum, like, sometimes I need to look away.

Outside perspective  and it really does feel like that like okay  this is so validating of the struggles that these people are facing such similar stories,  for anyone that doesn't know Jemima and I, and we help moderate. One of the born in born in survivor groups and when I tell you these amazing people, how many of these people are just like, I can't, there's just not words.

, we've talked to these people have been like. This might be too much  and then they say something you're like, that's how I feel all the fucking Right, and you're like, oh my god, you know,  it is healing So for anyone listening to this  who has been?

Born or raised in a cult and you're out there just trying to fucking figure out life trying to survive if you feel in a space alone reach out to the Lalich center , I promise you it's going to be worth it. If you can't afford it. Like I said, , they do have sponsorships, they will absolutely do everything they can to, , Give you that, you know, that information  and give you a place , if you want to come in and it's, it's really worth it.

, even if you just. Are able to come a couple times. It's a lot.  Any time you talk about, trying to heal your trauma. You're still talking about trauma. Talking about feeling it you still you are talking about trauma so it can be a lot, , there's definitely times where I live to support groups and I'm like, well now I need like to get high.

Or  watch some stupid comedy show. It is, and, but that's,  the reality of our life, ,  if you're honest with yourself, , we know this, Jemima, like, like, if I'm honest with myself, we've been honest with each other, you spend a fair amount of time thinking about your own trauma anyways.

You have your memories that come up  and granted what you think about and what you talk about and what you read about  is much more  within your own control. There's not a total absolute ignoring the you  you don't live in in a world it like if If you're really going to, to look at yourself because it's impossible.

Obviously, you, we had have traumatic tests. It's gonna, it's gonna come up, it's gonna come in.  It's a lot to sometimes hear things or talk about that , or be vulnerable in those spaces, but the rewards of just knowing that you're not alone, that there's other people that you can even just make a one-on-one connection with if you wanna, you know, that.

It's it's out there and it's so worth giving a chance. It's so worth giving a chance.  I tend to say we because I know like I'm well for one thing I'm looking at Jemima and she's not in her head, but also we've lived in love together long enough that we, like I know that her experiences are very similar to mine and I know that we both fucking struggled with that loneliness and , that just absolute  feeling like you're destitutely alone, , in whatever you're trying to do and whatever you're trying to heal. And there's now starting to be safe spaces where that doesn't have to be your reality anymore. So  definitely give it a chance. It is. Sure is in the, it is in the beginning stages, you know I mean, obviously they let us in, right,

but my goodness, , it's still something and  the difference,, being among people  and within a community like that, that sometimes is very different from what we sometimes see.  Online or in social media, or even maybe sometimes in our own closed communities , we're all trying to make our way while trying to figure out life,  we get dropped in the middle of  absolute chaos.

, and I've got to figure out how to  move. So everyone is, trying to,  figure out different things in different ways.  And we have seen, . People of our own communities, a second gen or born and go forward and make themselves a name in some way, whether , they become famous for something 

in my most recent memory, the more sort of bigger ones have just been  people that have,  written books or something like that. And there's just been this sort of phenomenon I I've noticed.  It's actually been verbalized, well, now I don't want to have anything to do with my community.

 I will never say that anybody owes anybody else anything that's not that's absolutely not true. But being in the communities that we are in and having the experiences  , like Jemima was saying earlier, we don't have a support system in our families, , and we become our own families, we, we have each other, that's, that's who we have.

And so When you, get up and say, well, I'm,  big now and I'm doing this for this and that reason , I'm no longer gonna, , deal  with you guys.  Somebody used this word that I, it came it to me. It describes it, and that's a ladder puller, , and it's not that you owe anybody anything but.

If, if you have been able to get yourself into a space where you have an inspirational story

,

that can still really help, , the community that you're in , or the community that you came from, or someone that's struggling or someone , that night doesn't want to want to live anymore. And if they hear from you like, Oh, I don't belong in that community anymore. Or, you know, like,.

I don't want to talk about. That's tough. That's a tough, tough thing to hear, , and , we're all just trying to figure out which which way to go . What we've been doing on the podcast and everything, , I'm definitely coming into that, I guess, the value system that I believe in, which is that we are building community for each other.

And in that sense, and in that space,  we do have a, what's a word, what's, what's the word I'm looking because I don't want like, it's not like you owe someone, but at the same time, like you're part of a community,  you should still contribute,

if you're going to shit in the toilet, you need to clean it sometimes. Yeah, yeah, sort of like that. . No man's an island. , we all connect with each other. And if you're like, well, I'm out of here, folks. Take a hike with me. , what do you think that's going to leave people feeling  a little rattled and we already deal so, so deeply and so badly with isolation and, and that feeling of, of like, you know, well, I guess , I'm still too fucked up to be worth anything.

I'm definitely coming into that, that value system for myself , where I will stand up and say, I actually do think that. , we should be building these communities for each other and we should be taking part of them,  we went through fucking hell and back,  and we got out.

We all did, but we also all still need support we need help we need to be there for each other. And that's completely completely understandably and completely fair thousand percent. But every single time we hear of another person that have lost their life or, you know, taking their life, the conversation always says, like, we need to do something.

What can we do? And I think I've said it before on this, that quote that I read that said,  The oldest healing in the world is, is community, community is the oldest healing in the world. So if you can share some of yourself to help others heal, even if you think that you have, what was the, deconstructed yourself on such a higher level than someone else has.

Well, then at least show up,  to send that message of you're too below me now that I can't even have a conversation with you, that

that's a ladder puller. We have no reference. We have no reference whatsoever for , how to do things as, survivors born into cults, because there was never, there's no studies. There's no, like, we're the first of the first of the first,  this is something that's just starting  to be looked at and understood , and talked about.

And

 There isn't a blueprint or like a list of requirements, or even a list of suggestions . We're just trying to figure it out as we go along, and definitely in these last, like, three years, I would say, I am a thousand percent convinced that we do need to build community for each other, and we need to be part of that community in some way, you know?

Yeah.  We are going through so much shit ourselves, and we're going through so much survival, and we're, again, I, I have the refrigerator saga, and like, I have had the last two days from, you know, But , I still want to show up. If I promised I'm going to show up somewhere, I want to show, I want to show up.

Because even , if I show up and act absolute fucking mess you're there. And that's going to send somebody else the message that, okay, they're still hanging on. And sometimes it's all you need to know is still hanging on , and , who can't give that?

That's what we can give to each other. Even if you just pop up and say, Hey. I'm still here, you guys. I'm still hanging on. Thanks. That's huge in our world because we're so isolated and, we feel  alone so much of the time, you know? So yeah. I mean, that's sort of been my evolution of a belief system because, especially Americans, and a lot of Westerners, everyone's like, everyone's in it for themselves, you're the most important thing, focus on yourself only, everybody loves to use the whole, like airplane, you know, thing, right?

Like, put your own mask on first before you put, somebody built those Masks in there. And if you didn't have a stewardess telling you where to find the fucking masks you wouldn't know how to put it on yourself, you know, so there is an element of community in whatever , we do and the need for community and the need to have  your little clan,, that knows  and can support each other , when things get really tough. , it's  easy to be  individualistic in this day and age. It is. But everything that we've been through together in these last couple of years, like I would say 1000 percent that not only, not only can community be built, but it should be built , and it,  is our responsibility in some way. , if all you have is the capacity to show up and say, I'm here, I'm a mess, but I'm here. Sometimes that's all that somebody else needs , you know? But anyways, that... Yeah, you're very right.

 

Don't be a ladder puller.

Yeah, and, 

even though we've got so much  so much on our plate,

  Let's keep building these communities because there's going to come a time where,  you're going to need somebody to check in with you and hey, are you still around? Do you need support? Even if you feel like you don't need it in the moment, or you feel like, you know, like you

deconstructed yourself enough that's not going to always be like that. Healing is not linear. We go around in circles and scribbles. And you're going to have days where you are a lot less deconstructed than you might be feeling like you are right now, you know, like you will have those days. 

We do tend to sort of , get angry at people that stick their head up or stick their head out and, you know, everyone's got their opinion. And we are a community of people who were never listened to, who are constantly silenced. So yes, there is also that healing part of being able to say whatever the fuck you want and getting upset about what the fuck you want , and having an unpopular opinion  you got to have those spaces.

But you know,  then come back and say, maybe I have something to learn too. You know, not just like, well, I'm out of here. You guys, now that I know better, right now that I've fixed myself or whatever it might be,  I wrote a book, bye bye

stories are important. I agree. A hundred percent. It's interesting because like what was I reading, where they said  the only real   proof of humanity is in our stories, like that's what creates humanity is our stories. So that's all sort of part and parcel.

I think that's what comes together is the importance of telling our stories and building and through that building community,  even if we, are going to fight like siblings, stupid siblings, or say dumb things. , it's still worth it, still worth it, , showing up for each other with whatever way we can.

Yeah, totally agree.



. And maybe also, in closing, we can just say

not to be a bummer, but

 My heart my heart is breaking, breaking for what's going on right now.

Every time I think about it, I start crying. So

I feel like I can't come into , any space public or not, even if it's, even if it's just our little podcast and talk about things without, without just saying, 

that what's going on right now in  Palestine and Israel, is not . Not far from my mind or heart right now.

And I really hope that people can stop talking long enough about... Who started it and start being fucking freaked out that so many people and companies, so many people and countries in this world are supporting genocide.

We are watching mass torture on a massive scale.

So I, I don't, I don't care who or even why it started.

If you're fighting with someone and you get in a fistfight, get in a fistfight. You don't put someone in a cage and then beat them to death. That's really different.  And at that point, I wouldn't care who the fuck starts who threw the first punch, you know? Like, and that that's kind of what I'm seeing right now.

No matter what, I'm freaking out

that this is happening.

So yeah,

 And the thing is, is that there's a lot of people who say, well, this happened and that happened in the history happened. But there's one woman , that I follow.  She's actually a Jew herself. And she said, you know. It kind of goes back to, like, when you want to see, , who  started something, it really goes back to who was given the first guns, kind of.

, if you took Palestine and Israel, and you left, All the, the religion and the history and all of that the same and their little terrorist Hamas and Zionist groups. You left that all the same, but you switched who had the money and who had the military.

Then tell me who would you be supporting? And that's what fucks me up. That's what fucks me up. Because Then, then, then, you know, Biden will be out there being like, we support Palestine. Right, yeah. Because nobody really cares about, like, oh, it's a terrorist organization. We have fucking terrorist organizations down the street in America, you know?

And you're not angry about that. So don't pretend that you're angry about that.  We're watching a westernized world bow down to military might and power and money. I'm sorry. That's. That's how I feel about it. That's how I feel about it. I can't both sides at all anymore, you know, right? 

The other the other thing too that I've been thinking about with, with this whole conflict though, too, what's also at the root of this, the means and,  , the permission that's being given comes from the money and power, but what , the value or whatever, the, the, what people are fighting for, , that was born out of  religion.

God says this land is ours. , they're right. Their God is right. And they, and that's why it should be as it is, you know,

it's wild. Yeah.

I always keep thinking of that video,  where the guys future self comes back to him and he's like, Oh. How come everything's so great?  The whole planet was on the brink of extinction and like global warming and everybody was fighting. What the hell happened? He goes, Oh, well, turns out Jesus was real.

No shit, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He came and took all the Christians. And ever since then, everything's been freaking great. We haven't seen war in two generations and all the world's problems are solved. I just freaking think that's  accurate. Yeah, it is. It really, really is like think of all the world's wars that have been waged.  Because of religion. Yeah. All the people that died, like all the crusades and the fucking Knights Templar and like all the fucking conquerings of the world. It was all about religion. My religion is better than yours and I'm going to push it on you and shove it down your throat and kill you until you do it.

It's all, it's all based on that. And. That's on a macro level, but all the way down to a micro level. I was watching this video where a therapist was talking about religion being the basis for trauma because  if you don't love me, I'm going to kill you is the basis of what we count as domestic abuse and domestic violence.

But yet that's the entire fucking Bible. If you don't love me, I'm going to kill you and let you burn in fire. It's how many verses of and we were taught that that's what love looks like because God is love and we are taught that that's what a father looks like because God's our father and we are taught about that's what a man is meant to look like because God's a fucking man somehow.

 When you think about it like that, it's like, like talk about needing to break cycles, like that's going to be the biggest cycle breaker. That needs to happen, ever. Yeah, I agree. Because that's not love. This woman was doing this talk, and she's like, yeah, the last person I was in a relationship with, he did this, he did that, and he, and he told me this, and he was, he was threatening to, to do this and this, and we went through this whole mess, and she got to the very end, and she was like, and that's when I left the church, and I was like, oh my god.

Sold fucking shit the whole time. I legitimately thought she was talking about an abusive relationship the whole fucking time. But then when she said that, that's good, I, I was like, oh my God. She was so, you know, . That's good. That's good. That's really good. I had to find that video 'cause I was like, oh, no,

That's good. But yeah, I mean, I mean, religion is what makes people feel that they have a right to abuse and hurt and overpower other people and that's where abuse comes from. It's in religion. And then,  they abuse you and break you down and then tell you that the religion is the solution.

The religion is going to heal you. Of what religion did to you. Religion did to you. It's

like a doctor cutting you open and then saying, now I'm going to sew you up. I'm going to sew you up, but I got to cut you open first. Yeah. I'm the only one that can do it too. Yeah. Nobody else. It's crazy. Fucking villain. Yeah.

 I love you. I love you. Thank you.  I love you. I'll talk to you later. Okay.

All right.  Awesome. Love you