Indonesia’s New President, with Dewi Fortuna Anwar

On October 20, 2024, Indonesia will inaugurate Prabowo Subianto as its new President. Ever since his election win back in February, world leaders have been courting Prabowo, meeting with him even before he has taken office. Prabowo seems to love presidenting around the world much more than current President Joko Widodo did during his ten years in office.

If all goes well, says Dewi Fortuna Anwar, our guest on this episode, Indonesia under Prabowo could claim a much more active role on the world stage to deal with global issues like climate change and energy security. But Prabowo is also known to be temperamental and at times unpredictable, finding particular joy in sneering at Europe.

Dewi Fortuna Anwar is one of the speakers at our flagship STATE OF ASIA conference on November 7 in Zurich. Have a look at the full line-up and find information on how to get tickets on our website.

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STATE OF ASIA is a podcast from Asia Society Switzerland. 
Season 7, episode 3 - Published: October 1, 2024
Host, editor/producer: Remko Tanis, Programs and Editorial Manager, Asia Society Switzerland

Transcript

00:00:03 Remko Tanis

From Asia Society Switzerland, this is State of Asia. I'm your host Remko Tanis.

00:00:11

Baba bravo, Subianto.

00:00:16 Remko Tanis

This October, Indonesia will inaugurate Prabowo Subianto as its next president.

00:00:31 Remko Tanis

That's Prabowo. In his victory speech on election night back in February, moving flawlessly between singing the national anthem of Indonesia to delivering a rousing hour-long speech to dancing to the beat, which brought him the votes of so much of Indonesia's young population.

00:00:48 Remko Tanis

It was Prabowo’s third try to win the Presidency and he finally got it, thanks to the support from the popular sitting President, Joko Widodo, who searched for ways at the edge of the law and some say beyond that, to secure his legacy and influence once he hands over power to Prabowo on October 20th. 

00:01:07 Remko Tanis

Leaders from all over the world have been courting the incoming Indonesian president over the past few months and Prabowo seems to love presidenting around the world much more than Jokowi ever did. If all goes well, says Dewi Fortuna Anwar, my guest on

00:01:18 Remko Tanis

this episode, Indonesia under Prabowo, could claim a much more active role on the world stage to deal with global issues like climate change and energy security. Although Professor Anwar says it might not all be positive headlines coming out of Jakarta, as Prabowo is known to be quite temperamental and unpredictable and not too shy about courting controversy.

00:01:39 Remko Tanis

Dewi Fortuna Anwar is one of Indonesia's foremost political and foreign policy experts and former adviser to the highest levels of power in Jakarta.

00:01:47 Remko Tanis

She'll be speaking at our flagship State of Asia conference this November in Zurich. More on that later. First of all, Professor Dewi Fortuna Anwar, welcome to the State of Asia podcast. One thing I've noticed is that I'm seeing headlines and pieces from media institutions, universities based in Europe, Australia, the US again of pessimism

00:02:07 Remko Tanis

about Indonesia's democracy and the freedoms, the civil

00:02:11 Remko Tanis

Freedoms. Prabowo won in a landslide victory. As you mentioned, it gave him nearly 60% of the vote in an election which is considered to have been free and mostly fair, where 80% of voters turned up, which is way more than in many elections in Europe or the US. Indonesia's democracy is only 26 years old. How strong is it and what explains, according to you, the Western pessimism about the strength of that democracy?

00:02:34 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Well, I have to admit that I've been part of the reform movement in the beginning and it is not Western pessimism. It's all Indonesian political scientists and democracy activists’ pessimism and the pessimism is less to do with Prabowo, but more to do with the fact that, under Joko Widodo, Indonesia has suffered a serious democratic decline. So in the past five years of his presidency, there's an absolute concentration of power. The parties in Parliament have all

00:03:05 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

been, I wouldn't say colluding, but they have been co-opted.

00:03:09 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

They have been part of the cabinet on the one hand, Jokowi has been able to embrace the opposition, including by embracing Prabowo and prevent the social fragmentation that many people fear Indonesia would suffer. Joko Widodo prevented that by reaching out to as large a

00:03:30 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

coalition as possible by including embracing opposed political parties and also importing him into the cabinet.

00:03:37 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

The result has been tremendous political stability. At the moment, Joko Widodo controls some 82% of the seats in parliament, with the result that Parliament has not really been functioning like checks and balances to the executive. There is very little opposition voices in in the making of legislation, so this is, this has been a serious

00:03:58 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

downgrading of the Indonesian democracy. So while it is true that the democracy is functioning electorally, substantively, it has been eroding. See, you know, Indonesia is not becoming an autocratic regime or going back into the military type of regime, you know, like in the past, the institutions are there, the political parties are there. All of the pillars of democracy are there.

00:04:20 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

That, but what we are seeing is that political elites coming together, making a cartel, basically leaving very little rules for choices. So for we see this as an attempt really to deny truly competitive election. 

00:04:59 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

And also interference in the judiciary. This is a real serious issue for Indonesian democratic consolidation.

00:05:07 Remko Tanis

Prabowo Subianto has been elected in a landslide with over 60% of the vote.

00:05:12 Remko Tanis

It seems like his controversial past has faded from collective memory. He has, of course, a history as a general in the New Order regime under authoritarian President Suharto, who ruled Indonesia until 1998, and at one point was Prabowo’s father-in-law even. Prabowo is being held responsible for bloody crackdowns

00:05:29 Remko Tanis

during that time, on critics of Suharto, including fatalities and disappearances, like I said, that seems to have faded from much of the collective memory and also world leaders from China, Japan, Australia, the US, Europe. They were all very quick to congratulate him on his election victory and invite him to come over. What happened there? What explains this?

00:05:48 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Well, clearly Prabowo has been able to reinvent himself. He has paid his due. He has been dismissed from the military. He has lived in self-imposed exile overseas and then he's come back and clearly there was still some reluctance to accept it because he failed three times. When Prabowo himself

00:06:08 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

ran for president twice against Joko Widodo in 2014, he lost, but he gained quite a respectable number of votes, but he lost. And then in 2019 he also got a respectable vote. But then he still lost. So that means that for those who voted for him, some 48%,

00:06:29 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

of the public, his past record clearly was not that significant anymore at all. He was never put on trial, he was just dismissed by the military ethics and he was never really declared guilty by a court of law.

00:06:42 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Or even by military court. But then he changed tactic. He toned down his rhetoric, and Jokowi embraced him and he was willing to be embraced in in the government. He was considered to be quite an effective member of the cabinet. He was well guarded. One of the best ministers of defense because he knows his work and he is able to function

00:07:03 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

in international forums, which is not always the case for many Indonesian military leaders and the most important game changer for him is the fact that he has put himself

00:07:13 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

as a successor of Jokowi, someone who is committed to continuing Joko’s legacy, particularly in the economic development, which is where Jokowi is shining in particular, Jokowi continues to enjoy very high popular rating because of his social, economic policy, and Jokowi has given his full backing. And

00:07:33 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

endorsement and also pairing Prabowo with Jokowi's son.

00:07:37 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

So I think that that really tipped the balance that that Jokowi effect is a very important factor that makes it possible for both to win.

00:07:46 Remko Tanis

If Prabowo has been successful in reinventing himself and in that way, finally on his third try win the Presidency, how confident are you that he will remain this reinvented version of himself once he has been inaugurated?

00:07:58 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt because you know Prabowo is a very complex person, his background is extremely cosmopolitan. He's lived in many countries, including in Switzerland, and has been educated overseas in Europe and the United States, comes from an established family. But unlike his relatives, he made his choice to have a career in the military and then in politics and

00:08:19 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

in business. So there are many faces of Prabowo, so I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, also bearing the fact that we expected so much from Joko Widodo.

00:08:29 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

As a product of the reform era, someone who did not come from the old established elite family, who did not have any military or bureaucratic or political parties background, most of us, including myself, expected him to be someone who will not only be good for the economy but also be good for Indonesian democratic consolidation.

00:08:50 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

But apparently there's a disappointment that that has not been the case.

00:08:53 Remko Tanis

You mentioned how Prabowo has a much more cosmopolitan upbringing compared to Widodo. He was born in Indonesia

00:09:00 Remko Tanis

but then grew up in in Kuala Lumpur, London, Zurich. As president-elect, he this year visited China and Japan even before actually becoming President. The current president, who don't really seems to like presidenting around the world. He famously never attended the UN General Assembly meeting in New York. Should we prepare for a bigger presence of Indonesia

00:09:20 Remko Tanis

on the world stage and what would that look like? What would Prabowo put forward as priorities?

00:09:25 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

In fact, between April and August, Prabowo has visited 12 countries. You're right that China and Japan, quite strangely, I would say received him at the highest level even before he was officially declared the winner. So that is unusual. That probably shows you the eagerness of both countries to embrace Prabowo and among others, probably because Prabowo has been quite critical of China in the past.

00:09:49 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

That well, the Indonesian army tended to see China in the past as the main threat to regional security.

00:09:56 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

And in fact, he was quite critical of Joko Widodo, of the large-scale opening of Indonesian natural resources and strategic projects to China's investment. Maybe China wanted to ensure that we'll have goodwill and therefore being the 1st to invite him, despite the fact that he was not yet officially declared resident. And then interestingly

00:10:16 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

he visited Japan. Trade after Japan is another major player in the Indonesian economy, but at the same time it's also seen as part of the important US alignment. So do we expect to see Prabowo and Indonesia

00:10:29 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

having a larger footstep footprint? At least for Prabowo himself, you know, it will be much more feasible. As I said, he's visited already 12 countries. He's clearly quite eager to play the high-level diplomacy. This could be good, or this could be bad. It could be good because that means that when a president takes personal interest

00:10:50 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

on an issue, that issue becomes top priority.

00:10:52 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

So we can imagine that, you know, the Foreign Ministry will be there to support him, but and now the foreign policy, it's not just about international relation, it's about economics. It's about social, you've got climate change. So we expect Prabowo to pay an interest also on issues that are of current global concerns like energy security, food security.

00:11:14 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

And in fact, he talks a lot about that. He doesn't just talk about traditional security. You know, he's very keen in his visit to Russia and he talked a lot about energy security and food.

00:11:25 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

With China. He also talked about economy issues, so Prabowo himself will be a much more hands on for a policy president in comparison to Widodo. And then how this will play out and what how Indonesia itself will be regarded or will be active. I think that depends

00:11:44 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

very much if

00:11:45 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

everything goes well. Maybe Indonesia will return to its former, quite active role globally. You know, under President SBY president, you know, he was also very active. He took a lot of leadership role at the global stage. He was very active on climate change, very active on open government, for example. You know? So he was

00:12:04 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

nice as both a globalist and a regionalist president, he also made a lot of headlines in regional fora. But there is also a risk for Prabowo is known to be quite temperamental and could be quite unpredictable. So Indonesia could make headlines not just positively, but also could also be some raised eyebrows on issues that

00:12:24 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

maybe might be quite out-of-the-box.

00:12:27 Remko Tanis

Do you have any idea what kind of issues might push his buttons?

00:12:30 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

One of the issues in which he might lose his temper could be during a press conference where there'll be a lot of journalists who will be eager to talk about his past record. You know, during his visit to Australia now that Indonesia has elevated its defense agreement in Australia, both governments are very keen to bring Indonesia closer. But Australian

00:12:50 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

media, you know, they are quite keen to focus on a number of

00:12:55 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

sensitive issues like human rights in the past, Prabowo's past human rights record, and also the current problems in Papua, for example, you know that could trigger some forthright response from him. Also, he's tending to be very forthright when it comes to Europe because Prabowo gets very angry when European countries lecture Indonesia

00:13:15 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

and other developing countries on issues of human rights, environment and so on. You know, because we're saying you know,

00:13:21 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

you're talking to us about this now you know what? You know, you former colonial countries exploited our natural resources, you know, cut down our forests and subjected our people to colonial exploitation. You know, not many Indonesian presidents, after Sukarno, were that Frank, you know, so to a certain extent

00:13:41 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Prabowo reminds us of President Sukarno with his very fiery anti colonial and anti imperialistic rhetorics and not being

00:13:49 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

too Japanese put it that way, you know? Not too, not too shy. And in being abrasive or assertive or to disagree. Prabowo is not too shy about courting controversy or calling a spade more than a spade sometimes.

00:14:05 Remko Tanis

I've read a lot about how Prabowo always loved poking fun at Europe.

00:14:09 Remko Tanis

And he's very critical of the European Union, it doesn't probably also help that Europe has taken Indonesia to court over the ban on nickel exports.

00:14:16 Remko Tanis

Reports that Europe keeps demanding Indonesia's palm oil industry becomes more sustainable, which is still standing in the way of a free trade agreement between Indonesia and the EU. Do you think? Probably, maybe we'll see. Well, there might be some practicalities to tone it down a little bit on Europe because it would be good economically or otherwise to get a bit closer or will he just continue to have a little bit of fun with it?

00:14:38 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Well for more personally, he’s having fun with criticizing Europe, but Indonesia's policy regarding palm oil, regarding downstreaming nickel is not Prabowo's policy. That's Jokowi’s policy also, you know, and also SBY’s policy.

00:14:55 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

The desire to have greater value added for our natural resources, that's been the ambition of successive Indonesian Government. You know that we do not want to continue to have this Dutch East Indias type of economic relationship with the developed countries where natural resources are taken out of our land and process and then the outsiders

00:15:15 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

enjoy. You know the

00:15:16 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

We added so regardless of who is going to become leaders in Indonesia, this is a national policy. There is a tendency to look at Europe's policy regarding palm oil, is less concerned about environment, is more about protecting its own cooking oils industries and about the nickel. So why shouldn't Indonesia process its own nickel?

00:15:36 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Engage in protectionist policies for its own national interest. The EU has been carrying out a lot of protections, policies for their own reasons as well, but I believe that Indonesia needs Europe, and Europe also needs Indonesia and the Indo Pacific region. There are so many issues that we need to consider. You know the

00:15:53 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

issues of international peace and security and global communities, where all regions have to come together, and it would be a shame if the two regions will be kept apart because of some, you know, not to issue like palm oil or nickel.

00:16:06 Remko Tanis

Just I think it was last year that Indonesia did agree on a free trade agreement with Switzerland is Switzerland just less picky towards Indonesia, just not whining so much as compared to the EU?

00:16:18 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Well, Switzerland is not part of the EU, so the negotiating at a bilateral level, it's always much easier.

00:16:24 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Because then you just only deal with the two countries. Particular concerns. Indonesia has signed a lot of Ftas with various countries at bilateral level as well as and of course you know. But finding anything with EU is going to

00:16:38 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

be a headache.

00:16:39 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Just filling a form under EU rules, you know, even if you have to apply for something

00:16:44 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

quite simple, but if it is under the EU then it's just a bureaucratic nightmare sometimes.

00:16:49 Remko Tanis

You've attended the Shangri-La dialogue in Singapore every year since its founding 21 years ago. It's the annual gathering in Singapore of generals and other military and national security leaders and experts from around the world.

00:17:02 Remko Tanis

This year's event, held in June, you were quoted as saying you're worried about the US-China relationship

00:17:08 Remko Tanis

and its twist and turns that could leave the rest of the region trampled. Could you explain a little bit? What do you mean? What risks do you see of the region being trampled in this US-China dynamic?

00:17:19 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Last year, when the US secretary of defense, still the same person, did not get to meet with his Chinese counterpart and the situation was really, really quite tense because it was also after the balloon incident where the Chinese balloon flew over mainland United States. The rhetoric on the ground, the naming of name, you know

00:17:38 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

was very much more explicit this.

00:18:01 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

But when elephants make love, grass also gets trampled. So.

00:18:06 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

So, so so you.

00:18:08 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Know So what? We will see worsening tension between the US and China if it's going to get to the other side, you know to open conflict, it is going to be extremely dangerous for peace and stability as a whole and our prosperity depends very much on trade and freedom of navigation,

00:18:26 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

and shipping and air flights and so on. And you know, and if there is any shooting in the Taiwan Strait, an incident in South China Sea, all of those was going to be disrupted. So between peace, stability and prosperity is just two sides of the same coin. And Southeast Asia is really very much part of that economy ecosystem. But a bigger competition between the major powers is

00:18:47 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

good for us because it means that we have choices, because all of these countries come to us offering stuff.

00:18:52 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

That's various types of financial incentives, investments, choices, technologies, whether it is buying simple technologies or even military hardwares, you know, the more choices are the better for the buyers. But if there is going to be another development going in another direction, for example,

00:19:10 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Beijing and Washington getting too friendly with each other, getting into a convergence 

00:19:15 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

that would also squeeze the living space for the medium and small countries, because then we will not have choice. The last thing may not need one. It's a cartel between the major powers dividing the spoils. Put it that way. You know, maybe the US could say, OK, China, you can have this part of South China Sea.

00:19:35 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

And you know, I'm going somewhere else. That is also bad news for us.

00:19:38 Remko Tanis

Do you think a president Prabowo would prefer to deal with a President Harris or President Trump come January.

00:19:46 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Well, I think that is a very politically incorrect question to answer. We will have to work with the United States of America regardless of who is President. Both are known quantities. So I think that the region will have to grit its teeth regardless who becomes president. But we just hope that whoever becomes president

00:20:07 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Will have a more outward orientation, not simply inward looking. For example, just America first, and not being too concerned about the rest of the world.

00:20:15 Remko Tanis

How's that with Asean then? You mentioned the region a few times, but Asean is of course a very diverse organization. If you look at its Member States from economically diverse to the political systems, but also in in the relationships, the individual Members have, for example with China, where you see the Philippines and China experiencing quite significant tensions in the past months.

00:20:36 Remko Tanis

On the other hand, you have countries like Thailand and Cambodia that that fuel a lot more comfortable dealing with Beijing and being a lot closer to Beijing. Is there a role for ASEAN or for Indonesia in ASEAN in determining the relationships with the US with China and with?

00:20:51 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Asean does not have a common foreign and security policy, unlike the EU.

00:20:56 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

So when it comes to foreign policy, each country has its own dynamics. ASEAN is a very diverse region. Southeast Asia is very diverse.

00:21:09 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

So that is the reason why there will always be a limit to Asean unity. Asean has never aimed to become a federation or a union like Europe. Having a supranational organization with central bureaucracy and determining the policies of different countries, it will be a non starter for us, yeah.

00:21:29 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

The realities, you know, we try to develop common goals

00:21:32 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

and that has worked very well. You know the like the Treaty of Amity and Cooperation in Southeast Asia that the disputes will be settled peacefully and that that no countries should use force to settle disputes, despite the fact that this is a non binding treaty. They said there's no enforcement mechanism it has.

00:21:53 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

But as then, countries have not gone to war against each other. Southeast Asian region has been of relative peace. If you compare it to many other regions always you compared to the earlier period.

00:22:24 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

We can also use that that closeness to also benefit us and because ASEAN regards both China and the United States being equally.

00:22:33 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Prabowo has said many times that he regards both the United States and China as being extremely important, that are 2 great civilizations that have contributed much to the world as great powers. They have great responsibility also to ensure that the region remains stable.

00:22:49 Remko Tanis

Widodo is leaving office in October with record high approval ratings. I mean, he has delivered better infrastructure, healthcare, poverty alleviation for many Indonesians, and one of his themes or policy agendas which Prabowo has stated he will continue is

00:23:06 Remko Tanis

to build a Golden Indonesia by 2045, which is 100 years since the country's proclamation of independence. What is this Golden Indonesia? What needs to be done to achieve that by 2045, which is already in in 20 years?

00:23:23 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Well, Golden Indonesia means becoming

00:23:26 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

A modern country, high income, achieving

00:23:29 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

not just political stability and not just wealth, but also the development of resilient human capital and a country that is respected outside of its own borders. The key to that is if there's one thing that Indonesia must do, it has to escape the middle-income trap. If Indonesia is serious about transforming this period to become, you know, a Golden Indonesia,

00:23:50 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

we need to create a good economic system where newly educated students, young people, will get good jobs and that means in creating the economic system where it will be able to absorb new employment cohorts. At the moment the informal sector

00:24:10 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Is still the largest employer of Indonesian workers, while the formal sector actually is taking less employees, this means that Indonesia is not really able to scale up the economy larger yet, and this is a vicious circle.

00:24:24 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

It's about qualifications, you know, education, training, the ability to enter the new economy and this new digital era and then to be not just users of new technology, but also be part of the, you know, not just consumers but also producers of the various new technologies. And this is a real challenge.

00:24:44 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Which I think cause if you look at all those countries that have become modern countries are not because they're rich in oil and minerals and gold.

00:24:53 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

But it's because they are, they have very good human capital in the region. Singapore is the most developed and Singapore doesn't have much natural resources. Japan doesn't have much natural resources. South Korea doesn't have much. So Indonesia needs to go in that stream. So this is education, education and education. And that is I think you know the policy and for both

00:25:14 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

government is going to focus very much on improving the human quality, including by providing good nutrition for the students. Our Constitution requires 20% of the national budget is dedicated for education.

00:25:25 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

They still take time. You know it's not going to happen overnight.

00:25:27 Remko Tanis

Are you optimistic about the next five years?

00:25:29 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

I'm optimistic in the next 20 years. I mean, the next five years, you know we are domestically, there are a lot of challenges because of what is happening outside, you know because Indonesia is so plugged in into the international system. So there are a lot of concerns you know. So the concern is about the China risk, not of US-China conflict in terms of war,

00:25:50 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

but if Chinas economy goes down for whatever reasons, that's going to impact directly on Indonesia's economy because China is a major market for Indonesian products.

00:25:59 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

So if there is a lessening of demand that will affect us as well. So it's well systemic if the international environment is not healthy, that's going to affect us well as well. So let's hope that the various conflicts will end soon, that the market will be much more stable and then you know we can continue to work in a more predictable environment.

00:26:21 Remko Tanis

Professor Dewi Fortuna Anwar, thank you very much for your time and we look very much forward to welcome you as a speaker to our State of Asia conference here in Zurich on November 6 and 7.

00:26:29 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Yeah. I look forward to that. Thank you.

00:26:31 Remko Tanis

It'll only be a few weeks after the inauguration, right? Are you going to attend the inauguration of Prabowo as well?

00:26:36 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

I’ll watch it on TV, I think.

00:26:38 Remko Tanis

Ohh OK. Good. Well, thank you very much once again for your time and we look forward to meeting you in Zurich in November.

00:26:45 Dewi Fortuna Anwar

Yeah. Thank you very much.