The Systemic Way
The Systemic Way Podcast is a therapy and mental health podcast featuring conversations with experts, practitioners, researchers, and people with lived experience from the worlds of systemic psychotherapy, family therapy, psychology, social work, and community practice. Hosted by Sezer and Julie, two systemic and family psychotherapists, the podcast explores mental health, relationships, trauma, resilience, social justice, culture, and change. Through engaging discussions on theory, practice, and real-world experiences, listeners gain a deeper understanding of how systemic and relational approaches can support individuals, families, organisations, and communities.
Artwork by Arai Drake Creative: http://www.araidrake.com/portfolio/thesystemicway
Music by Rena Paid
The Systemic Way
Exploring EcoTherapy with Chiara Santin
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In this episode, Julie and Sezer speak with Chiara Santin who is a Systemic and Family Psychotherapist, supervisor, trainer and Director of Rainbow Family Therapy Services and Rainbow Community Projects CIC.
Chiara has worked with children and families for more than 30 years, in Italy as a community-based youth worker and in UK as a professional. She is passionate about promoting affordable family therapy, activity-based therapy and EcoTherapy.
EcoTherapy is a form of therapy which uses nature as the context for change, self-growth and healing. It is the application of Ecopsychology, a well-developed field to claim people’s need to reconnect to nature for their own benefit as well as promoting a renewed awareness and commitment to caring and protecting the environment of which we are part of.
Chiara talks to us about her projects in applying EcoTherapy to systemic family therapy.
For more information about Chiara's work and EcoTherapy, visit her website on:
www.familytherapyservicesrainbow.org
Welcome to the Systemic Way. In today's episode, Cesar and I are going to be talking to Chiara Santin, a systemic and family psychotherapist who is also a director of Rainbow Family Therapy Services. Chiara is going to be talking to us today about ecotherapy. And if you're wondering what that is, she's going to give a really good explanation when we get into the conversation. But here are a few thoughts and reflections from the chat that we had with Chiara. I don't know, Cesar, if you want to share some of your thoughts.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Julie. Yeah, really enjoyed meeting with Chiara and was really inspired after doing the podcast with her actually. The idea of just taking our work outside the confines of clinical setting. Outside the you know, the rigidity of a therapy room and just being outdoors. I mean, the work I do, I work in a school, and a lot of my work in that school is being out with with the young people, either on the football pitch or you know, going for a walk. I do a lot of kind of walking, talking with young people, and just hearing the way Kiara has put it together in a kind of therapeutic approach and the the benefits of drawing from the outside as resources. Um I think there's so many, so many ideas of how to use the the outdoors and then and the natural world in your therapy and things like the thing that really stuck out for me was the um the trees in the forest as a part of your reflective team. I love that. Um so yeah, so I really enjoyed the way Chiara spoke about her work. Really, really interesting to see where she's gonna take it next, and looking forward to the the developments of ecotherapy.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. I think for me, I'm gonna say it's like a breath of fresh air because you are, you know, it is all about being outside and how therapy can be taken outside, and really about our connection to nature and how important that is in terms of our mental health. And I think it's fair to say that's sort of been a bit of a theme that's been coming up in some of our podcasts, isn't it? Et cetera, and I'm sort of really curious about that. Um, and I think Yara gives us such a wonderful insight into the possibilities with it, um, but also her own connection to nature, which invites you to kind of think about your own connection to nature, so and and how you might take these ideas outside, just like you said, says a like for you with the walk and talk with um young people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, lovely. We hope you all enjoy the podcast. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02Okay, well, welcome to the systemic way, Chiara. We're very happy to have you here today, and um, I'm gonna introduce you. So we today, Cesar and I are going to be speaking to Chiara Santin, who is a systemic and family psychotherapist, supervisor and trainer, and also director of Rainbow Family Therapy Services, alongside Rainbow Community Projects. So there's two companies that you're director of, and it's really lovely to have you here.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for having me. It's quite exciting because this is something obviously that it's is is almost for me good to think about it as I talk about it to other people because ecotherapy is is very much in the making for me, and uh and I would say for the systemic community as well. Um thank you for yeah having me here today.
SPEAKER_02Great. It's well, it's lovely to have you here, and I suppose, like you said, um ecotherapy is something that is new in some shape or form to the systemic community, and we thought it'd be really great to hear and learn a little bit more about it. Um, so I'm just wondering if you could let us know perhaps some of the principles of ecotherapy.
SPEAKER_01Well, I suppose in a way, being in nature and uh um feeling and understanding the the benefits of being in nature is nothing new. But uh in a way, the Western world have obviously moved away from being seen or or being really thinking as being nature and being part of nature. So we almost are in this process of understanding our way back to nature in the way that we we are all part of it, and that's very systemic in itself to think of nature as us and us as nature. So that I would say this is very much how I think about ecotherapy, in a way, it's nothing new. Um, but as a field, I suppose is very much linked to uh ecopsychology, would be um, you know, the the field that has addressed um more directly the issues of taking therapy outdoor. Um there are other uh um books and resources in the field of eco psychopsychology that uh have been uh um maybe useful, but uh there are not many systemic uh books or or many systemic uh I suppose theories that have been applied to working in nature. And yet I think as I'm speaking, hopefully imagining a lot of uh practitioners systemic uh therapists that might have already done a lot of work in nature. So uh for me there is something about uh one having a personal connection to nature that becomes the basis of uh feeling um at home in nature or feeling safe in nature, as well as professionally using some of the theories that um might be um obviously um connecting with the idea of systems and uh as systemic thinkers, I think we are in a very good position to uh going back to Bateson, for example, and our roots are in anthropology and and system ecosystems. So, in a way, it's nothing new. For me, is it's something about for uh maybe the systemic community to re reconnect to those old ideas in a way, and of course, I I suppose the the very basic idea of curiosity and feeling an explorer when we are in nature applied to therapy means that uh therapy as such or a session in nature might be a lot more unpredictable. There are no walls, um, so therapeutic boundaries need to be created in a kind of a different way or be thought about in a different way. It can be more anxiety-provoking because you are at the mercy of the weather, and I do struggle with that being Italian. We don't go out very much in the in the extreme weather, so I had to kind of learn how to uh go out and and and maybe not being so bothered about feeling cold or feeling the dumping to straight to my bones and things like that. So it's been a bit of a journey to learn about how to transfer some of um systemic ideas that we are familiar with um into um the context of of working outdoor. Um I'm thinking also about the the power of metaphors, so how narrative work you know becomes almost natural because people uh or myself can can use those kind of connections to to nature and and what nature provides and the different landscapes to to connect to to a problem, a dilemma, a struggle that that um people may may have. So that's very much also what I use in in ecotherapy sessions.
SPEAKER_02Um thank you. Yeah, I was just gonna say, I think we I we I know that we want to move on and definitely hear about um an ecotherapy session. And and actually what I was wanted to point out is I know I read in preparation for meeting with you, Chiara, um the piece that you wrote in Murmurations. And I just wanted to point that out for for people if they if they do want to get a really full picture and a really heartfelt piece, I think, from from you about about your journey with ecotherapy and your rewilding of your practice. And I know there's also another piece in context from February 2019 as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, if people are interested, it's it's I think it's an evolving um field um for our systemic community as well, because um, as I said, I believe there are also people are using uh ideas in nature and they are doing work in nature, but there isn't a coherent set of of ideas about it. But I think we are catching up, and and uh I think uh uh the issue of murmurations particularly was bringing together different contributions, some more theoretical and some more practical, and um, and mine was very much about my own journey of um developing as I was going along, one in terms of um knowing the landscape. I think it's very important to um almost um let nature become your co-therapist so that you feel that nature will provide something, will suggest something. Um so uh it's something that I have been learning really and and and has been uh very much, I suppose, developing during the lockdown because out of necessity. So I have been uh seeing people uh in nature for obviously for safety reasons, and then it became more of a regular uh way of seeing people and getting their feedback about those sessions and and me relaxing into just believing in in the power of nature um and and feeling just preparing myself uh for a session, um, mainly thinking about um my clients and what they they might bring, what they are trying to uh address, and and um and and then trying to step outside or just see how um what they bring on the day might connect with nature. So I might ask them, for example, to to pick up uh an object in nature as we walk through the woods um that represents something that they they want to talk about. Or am I asked, uh, if it's a family, for example, am I asked to pick up an object, a natural object uh for each other, and then uh share why and and and there are very interesting conversations coming out of those creative ways of doing it. And and what it does, I suppose, the the landscape that I start with walking in the woods is as we know um nature helps us to feel more grounded and and more uh relaxed and in our minds, our thinking slows down, and so all those kind of physiological benefits are helping, I feel, to to connect to the problem or a difficult conversation in a different way. Um, and that's what tends to happen. You know, sometimes I don't know, a mother and a daughter can have a very difficult conversation, but the focus is almost like when obviously parents are driving in a car and your child starts telling you something that you never heard before. So there's that sense of nature being um you know present as a container but also as a as a way of relaxing into conversations that might be difficult.
SPEAKER_00Um in the paper and re memoration, memorations, you you began to talk about but this concept of rewilding systemic practice, and I love the way you termed it. So nature as a co-therapist and a primary therapist, which kind of I guess what you was kind of giving us examples of just now, but also the wild therapy room and a wild reflective team. Yeah, it's just like really embracing the wildness and really kind of leaning into it. I just wanted to hear a little bit more about I was really intrigued by the wild reflective team and how you might bring that idea into some of the work.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, so again, it's been interesting that the practice came before thinking about the theory of it. So many times I found that um uh, for example, I I remember uh uh it was a teenager who um was having quite um a difficult relationship with their parents, and uh and and she just pointed out to a tree where there was a squirrel just jumping up and down, and it's always like that, you know, it jumps up and down, but it's never there, it just uh pretends that nothing is happening, and so it was a way for her to express something that obviously wasn't able to express before, certainly not online. So I feel that yeah, that is an example, I suppose, of nature coming into a conversation and is a metaphor for saying something that maybe wouldn't find language for or wouldn't be as light as it was, you know, in saying something potentially quite quite important and not but quite difficult to say. Uh so I feel that nature provides that, or some other times I've got a client who is very connected to nature and uh uh she's um often out, and and uh that that makes a difference sometimes when clients obviously have may have different relationships with nature, but she really uses nature as a source of of metaphors for for her life and and is very meaningful to her. And and with her, it's like it each single time there there is a uh a bird coming into our conversation. Or she's pulling ivy from from from trees, you know, because she's feeling just oppressed and suffocated by by her problems. And so uh she's one, for example, that that you feel the reflecting team, the wild reflecting team is always there to say something to her, so it's always a message for her. So again, it may vary a lot from from person to person, but this idea of the reflecting team felt like um the more I'm open to uh being wild or accepting disruption, or that I'm not set on this conversation that that has to go somewhere, and I accept that there might be disruption or interruptions, is actually welcoming something new and a different perspective, and that's where I thought about well, it's like the reflecting team, isn't it? So that's how it came about. But I suppose the key thing is about being wild, and you you don't know what uh what to expect in a way in a session. Of course, I will left some ideas and connecting again to the presenting issue or my clients themselves as people, but um, the rest is almost like a very creative process of um a differ different conversation that can happen in nature, and I also think that um it's very liberating for me because of the struggle with my language being Italian and trying to grapple with uh the English language that sometimes feels a bit empty. Um, so in nature, all these metaphors um provide just a different different level of communication that is is more meaningful, and a lot can be said about you know a tree that has got two big branches. So this is about looking after myself, this is about looking after others. So it becomes like a different kind of conversation um when I'm I'm open to to just notice and to see what what what happens you know in that moment and the presence that that uh I suppose I feel so um being grounded uh in nature or wherever I am in in a wood or in a grassland or walking as well sometimes.
SPEAKER_02I suppose it it makes me think about Kiara, your what drew you towards taking your therapy outside and your personal connection with with nature.
SPEAKER_01It's been a bit of a personal and professional journey alongside each other, really, because um uh I suppose my journey is these roots in the Italian Alps where um I where I'm from and um the dramatic landscape of the high mountains are very dear to me because I I spent so much time uh you know just exploring them. And even as a young child, I was um probably um very keen to explore with with excitement rather than fear, you know, nature. And and uh and I felt very, very free to be in nature, so I felt like my sanctuary, my my safe place and and space to be. Um I also remember during the lockdown, I had a lot of memories as I was spending more and more time in nature and the local green spaces. Um I had all these kinds of memories coming back to me about new trees, for example, that um were very familiar in my nursery and primary school uh setting. Um, and there are some new trees in the woodland where I practice. Um, so that feels quite comforting for some reason, and also that I spent a lot of time in the woods just uh with my best primary school friend, and uh she was living in the outskirts of the village. So it's all almost that journey of coming back to my whole self, and uh that's for me has been the professional journey that um I've been on. That slowly I felt that nature was giving me back parts of myself that I never kind of maybe thought were there or that I could use in therapy. And uh and it's it's really confirming to me that at the end of the day, what we have to offer is is ourselves, you know, it's our best therapeutic tool. So reconnecting with those experiences have really helped me to feel uh more whole and able to access some parts of myself that uh I thought were very squeezed because of me trying to become a very English therapist with no accent and uh you know fitting into those ways of being or talking and learning the language that feels still very alien sometimes, you know, quite unemotive and not emotional for me. So yeah, working in nature has brought all of those experiences and connections and skills and and things that I feel are part of myself and I could kind of reclaim them. So if anything, you know, anybody can can really reclaim parts of ourselves that are kind of there, but we feel we can't access them. And and one part also has been my my spiritual um beliefs and my spiritual self that um it feels very at home in nature for for those reasons because I've experienced so many retreats and being in beautiful places that reminds me of being a small thing in a big universe. And so all of those things have helped me to reconnect and to to kind of use those resources um in therapy for for clients, and they have obviously their own relationship to nature and their own experiences, and um yeah, it's been quite liberating and and amazing, you know, to see some of the sessions also being very powerful and and maybe needing less sessions in some cases, you know, with some families. So it's been quite mind blowing.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, Kira. Um it's making me think about a real theme that's coming out of our project of the podcast that we're we're hearing people when they're talking about their work and their their kind of Innovative practice, if I can call it that, or what they're bringing to the systemic field, it really comes from somewhere real deep in and their passions and and how kind of um how holistic that is, I guess. When you create something that really touches you from your core, you know. Um, and that's kind of when I was hearing you talk about your reconnection to something that was very kind of fundamental to you, your your upbringing. So that was it's really great to hear people tell their stories and how how they kind of bring that into their practice. It'd be good to hear about how you kind of brought that stuff so you into a kind of like um I don't know, is it is it the professional domain, I guess, that I'm trying to think about how you kind of then took these ideas and started bringing it into conferences or you know, where where where in the journey are you with that and how did that kind of start, I guess?
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, I had to trace back my I suppose seeds of ecotherapy back to an aft conference that I attended in 2017 in Dunblane um in Scotland. And it was very interesting because I was presenting on a piece of uh of work with an adopted family where I was um uh talking about uh uh taking two boys with that had a very different difficult relationship with each other to the local park, and and it was by about kiting in the park. And interestingly, so I was already using obviously some of you know an instinct to just say maybe being out in nature is gonna be more helpful. And um, and I uh I uh during that that conference, um Lorna Edwards from Wales and um I think some other people attend, well, Lorna was leading this uh fringe event, it was called so interesting. It was a walk in the park in the green spaces surrounding the the hotel we were in. And um, and after that, I remember you know stopping and just saying how lovely it was, and there were a few systemic people there very interested. And um, so after that, um uh it was interesting that Nigel Jacob, who trained with me, contacted me to say, um, oh, would you like to come and teach on our uh systemic course that is is about uh art and craft and and systems? And I said, Oh wow, yes, I would love to, because he was connected to um uh an organization who did a lot of uh uh therapeutic work with families in uh in nature. So it felt like a great combination. So I was part of that uh course, delivering that course because I'm also teaching on systemic courses, and it was very exciting to see how the weaving in of systemic theories just fitted with what they were doing. They didn't have the theory, so we were providing the theory for what they were doing. Um, so that felt like a very kind of exciting uh time to see how the systemic practices would really fit with working in nature, as well as you know, honoring some of the key systemic ideas that that that would really apply and be useful. Um so unfortunately that that kind of didn't continue that course, but um after that course my my interest and passion just uh kept going, and I was learning from uh my adoptive the adoptive families that that I've been working for for 12 years now, that is my main clinical work, uh how different children and the times they were spending in nature uh were a lot calmer and less stressful, and uh so I just thought, well, there must be a way to do therapy in nature. So I I I got uh an application to the Campbell Fund, the after Innovative Projects Fund, and and I got the money after a year, I might say. But I was able to have a pilot, and at the time also I was keen to bring families together to create networks, and uh, because this family tends to be quite isolated, and um uh and so we did uh uh a fun family therapy day, fun standing for family united in nature, and um and it was a great success, and uh and I was hoping that after that uh uh you know I would be commissioned just to do the whole program, but it was very difficult because um I felt that the um I think the beliefs about uh individual therapy being the only uh appropriate or um say valid treatment for individual children uh felt very much the dominant discourse and and I you know I was quite um frustrated because I couldn't see that they were really investing in it or understanding what I was offering. So anyway, after that pilot, then I I just thought, okay, uh I'm gonna do another one. So I did another, you know, that wasn't supported by by any funding, but I I was really keen to to making it happen, and um so I did uh another family day was called FAN F A N for Family Art in Nature, and again it was about collecting, it was five four families with children of different ages uh who attended, and uh they collected a lot of uh um yeah, natural objects, and then each family made uh an a piece of natural art, and again it was very positive. And I was hoping that the evidence would persuade the commissioners, but it didn't happen. It got me so frustrated that was spending so much time talking and trying to persuade, and I I felt I couldn't influence that that way of thinking, and uh so I just thought, well, I'm gonna make it happen elsewhere, and that's where I set up the rainbow community projects in 2019, because I just thought, well, I'm gonna probably uh invest in in creating something more local, and um and so since then obviously I've been working on um funnily enough, it it was a natural kind of been drawn back to my roots, which is community work, and and I've done a lot of youth work in the community in my town in Italy, and um um and a lot of um you know uh camps in in the mountains and things like that. So, in a way that helped me to move more into my community roots and do more community-based family therapy. So um that's I suppose the development that in a way the adoption uh route not happening has allowed me to invest more in local projects, and uh so so far uh I have um I have run an ecotherapy group for local residents um and over eight weeks, and it was the most diverse group I've ever led. Um, different ages, different genders, and and again being in nature, but also promoting um you know connections with each other and being in nature with with each other. It's been um a very successful group, and some people, uh some local residents now are meeting still on the same day in the same spot. Um, so that's an outcome in itself, and I'm very pleased about that because I I believe that we are gonna face a mental health pandemic, and who is gonna provide mental health support, you know, to most people where they don't reach the thresholds of uh mental health services. So that's I suppose where I'm going.
SPEAKER_00Um the amazing, amazing journey of persistence and belief in in connecting with the the with nature. Real shame that it wasn't picked up by commissioners. I mean, after hearing you talk, I would like to know what was what was the kind of feedback you got from families and children taking part in in these projects.
SPEAKER_01The the thing was um the the children felt really a sense of freedom to explore, but feeling safe because they were all the adults, obviously, being watchful or being there. Um the parents uh felt they could mingle, so they could just freely have conversations with other parents without any pressure, any particular focus on a particular topic. Um, so being in a in a space where these things can happen, I suppose, creates that that sense of uh freedom, but also connection. Um and and uh the the feedback also for for the parents to know that uh the children were safe because there was someone uh who was providing that that safety even in an open space. Uh so there would be activities. Um uh for example, uh the first pilot was was about creating a den for a little creature. So they created a little creature first, and so interesting to even see what your child is thinking as an animal, and then finding, of course, these are adopted children that they they have obviously difficulty in understanding where they're coming from. And so there was a child who was worried about this this little uh little uh I think it was um yeah, this little animal being on his own when he got home. He said to the parents, what are you gonna do overnight? You know, so again, that would give an opportunity to the parents to have that difficult conversation about well, it'll be all right and reassuring, or making links with their own stories. So again, those kind of maybe connections that we we make sometimes in therapy sessions are very much in our heads, but in nature they happen kind of more organically, more naturally. Um, so you can have a very deep and powerful conversation, but without many words, because it's it's going through the metaphor and through nature. So it's a form of externalizing, if you like, and and seeing the problem or a situation as out there in nature, um that people can make links uh about. And also I think is is that thing about the the need for children to be in nature for for for self-regulation and uh and how different they may be in nature because of that. So ideas about embodiment as well come into it, emotional self-regulation, especially with children who have trauma. Um, you know, there is immediate an immediate effect that that that that parents see in in the children.
SPEAKER_02I was I was thinking in Kiora, I'm thinking it, but I did get it from reading your paper as well, um, about Barry Mason and that sense of sort of safe uncertainty and taking therapy actually just outside of a therapy room, and how you can create that that that safe space for children to talk, actually, and how a therapy room might be quite confining for that in some ways.
SPEAKER_01I always believe that that for most of the children that I work with, talking therapy wasn't wasn't the right thing, um, and was very difficult because um sometimes I feel it reinforces the fact that they are the problem and they feel that pressure on on them. And um uh so being in a different space where, well, obviously there's family therapies, we we wouldn't put them on the spot, of course, but that set up you know in a clinical room creates still that anxiety and and that sense that the the spotlight will be on them, that's what they expect. Um, but in nature it's it's just very different, the positioning of of everybody. There is a a way that they can run off, but you see them, it's safe, and they they can come back or you can go to them, you know. There isn't that constrained space, and and that allows maybe the more freedom to explore. And again, then the communication happens more naturally.
SPEAKER_02And I'm thinking we do just talk, like we're having a conversation, you know. You know, you you talk when you're making dinner, when you know, in just in life as you're as you're going in life, rather than going to a space to talk as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. But also obviously, in terms of um therapeutic boundaries, we need to be thinking about how do we create some boundaries around it as well, of course, because it's an open space, it's a public space as well. So the way of uh kind of it has developed, but certainly learning from other um practitioners uh and reading books, you know, you need to almost identify a bit of a boundary, physical boundary, even in a green space. So for me, it's like the entrance of the woodland because that's where I start, so that's my beginning usually. I have this kind of loose structure that is really based on the landscape. So why I start from yeah, this particular tree is my door. So I said to people, yeah, this is where we start today. And then as soon as I go into the woodland, the the light just changes and it gets really dark, and it's a huge, huge tree, oak tree. And and that's where I normally tend to, there is a bit of a space, and it feels like a natural uh place where we can just be in circle and just say, so what about today? Do you have anything to bring? I tend to to ask always, but I said, Oh, I've got an idea. So maybe if you know if it's a family, uh it might be a more structured activity. As I said, I might ask to pick up things for for for the family members and then create a bit of a sculpting or a natural art. Sometimes I I did before Christmas a secret Santa type of thing where they would pick up uh randomly a family member and just walking through the woods as as it helps obviously to calm down, to enter into a different space, they might have a chat with each other, so it's very kind of free flow. And then uh we come to out of the woods, it might be just a 10 minutes walk, but it can be quite relaxed. And as they pick up things, I check do you have uh enough things with you? And as we come out of the woods, there is a bit of a space where there is grass and there are some big trees, and then there is another piece of grassland that that looks out to the sea and it's such an open space, it's beautiful, it's uh one, and that seems to invite very open conversation. So it made me think about how the landscape sometimes really invites certain types of conversation, and also I've created, I felt the need to create a more intimacy space in the wood, and so I have found that under the ew trees was the best place where um there was maybe more intimacy. So I've just created with some logs, some boundaries around some trees, and that's where sometimes I take people or I ask them, you know, once I show them all the different options. Sometimes they want more of an intimate conversation, and nature might be more in the background. So, in that sense, it's like having a conversation in a therapy room, but of course, with all the possible interactions from the wild reflecting team coming into it.
SPEAKER_00What beautiful um possibilities can come up when you can set the landscape to be a part of the therapy room. I love that. Um, something Julie and I had spoken about in kind of preparing to meet with you was thinking about what a session might look like. Um and you you began to really bring it to life to me and how I might want to use some of these ideas. Um although I'm very much in a very um concrete jungle, you know, in London. I mean, there's there's always opportunities, there's lots of parks here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I wouldn't want to think that you have to be in a particularly special place, you know, it becomes special to you. You have to feel safe in the space, I suppose. Um, certainly for me, that's important to know all the I know all the trees almost and all the diff different corners. Um, so I can provide that safety, I I suppose. Um, to know that I say, for example, you're not gonna get lost in this wood, it's very, very small, or there is a path and I'll lead you, or or then when children, for example, know the place, then I say, Oh, go ahead and and lead us. And so, again, creating a bit of a diversity in in sessions as well. Sometimes I ask people to um I don't know, decorate sticks, um, and I I I use them as as a way of of picking up uh the vibes in the family. So again, everything seems is kind of connected to a bit of a theme or a way to create uh conversations around it, uh, but also that that sense of relaxing into the space and allowing some natural conversation to happen.
SPEAKER_00And um I'm getting pulled into the magic of this, Julie. Sorry, I'm it's really bringing out an inner child sense in me. And you said that you know the different trees. I was just thinking of like the wonder of you know the different tree being a different reflective person, or you know, like this tree gives me this kind of um insights, maybe, or I mean, it's just so many resources to play with families to say, oh, this is the tree that thinks about I don't know, structure or rules or whatever it can be like irrelevant to the family, but the the playfulness and the wonder and the magic that nature can bring out in people as a resource is something that's really really inspiring.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for a child, for example, I've got this image of a child who was really angry, and and uh I invited demon. So, do you want to just express your anger with this tree? And it got a stick, and it was really and and and then after that uh I said, Well, what about are there other trees that might might bring something else? And he was well, this is a kind tree. So, you know, the the woods and the landscape, then that's space become populated with all these kinds of ideas that different children or different parents have suggested, or we have done some work by that tree, and and so it is very interesting, certainly for me. I don't know, maybe people, some other therapists are very happy to go to different places, and I know of others who may go to clients and natural spaces. Um, but I think for me, it's given me a bit more security because of having to let go of some of those structures and ideas that we hold on to about what we are supposed to be doing, and being able to take those relational risks and being open to disruptions and other uh messages coming into the conversation. Yeah, it is sometimes uh nerve-wracking or anxiety-provoking, but it is hugely uh powerful and and uh exciting at the same time.
SPEAKER_02I was thinking as you're talking, um Kiara, of the timing really of now, like you mentioned the pandemic and the necessity to meet outside, but I was thinking as well just of the planet, of climate change, of um, you know, even housing for people where people are leaving, migration, all of those things, and and how that connects to ecotherapy, particularly at this point in time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, definitely. As systemic thinkers cannot really think of therapy as separate from all the things that are happening around us. Um, so the socioeconomic, the political context, and the ecological context is all one, you know. And and I I think I've started certainly to ask um every single parent. You go out with your children in nature because you know, with the pandemic, most children will have been so um you know dependent on screens that everything has become like we are also obviously working online a lot, and and and what a difference could make if we all make the the commitment to being outside more and to being nature more, and also look after the the natural uh spaces because uh as we know we we need to do that, and uh and we may feel overwhelmed by thinking about you know the climate change as something so big that we we we we don't know where to start. But actually, I think therapy becomes uh um maybe a political or ecological uh action if we start asking those kind of questions and uh and and we really raise awareness of of the power of nature and and the need to be more connected to nature and to each other. So yeah.
SPEAKER_00I really like that question, Julie. Thank you. Um and and the answer. It really made me think about the the benefits of thinking about a relational aspect of us and nature and us looking after nature as you said it, Kiara, and then and then the nature looks after us, how powerful that as a metaphor is um for people and and losing that it can be is something um in a Western society, maybe is something that is not as powerful as a kind of concept or an idea, and bringing people back to that very kind of um I don't know, is it an indigenous or a very kind of a natural way of thinking about our connection to the earth? Well, it also leads me to think about um particularly the question about the times now, about doing some of this work uh in an online format. And I see that there is you have done a project, didn't you, online um ecotherapy group?
SPEAKER_01Which is so strange, yes, of course. I I was keen obviously to make connections to local organizations, and so I was very excited to run this ecotherapy group in the natural reserve here in Sussex near Brighton, and um and then obviously um the lockdown started, and I ended up um yeah, running it online, which obviously sounds very kind of against nature. So it was mainly a way of um maybe showing pictures of nature, and and that's also there are ways that we can bring natures into our um you know online sessions and or or clinical rooms sessions, because uh again is about using natural metaphors for life, you know, to to to connect, to to find new language for talking about about difficult things. And and um so I do believe that there is a lot of scope about also bringing nature into into sessions uh online. And and I I started doing that as well, um, getting people to imagine what what kind of tree uh you would want to be right now, um, or bringing my own um, you know, maybe connection or image of nature um in a conversation can be really powerful. Seems to bring resources as well for people because they might have memories that come to them. And um, like for example, today I was I was talking to to a couple and um and I was asking those kinds of questions: do you go out with your children or um would they go out in nature? And and also for them, I said, Well, what is the landscape that really attracts you and that has shaped you maybe you know in your um family of origin? And and uh one was from the sea, so I said I lived in London 30 years, but the sea, there is something about the sea that attracts me. And so it allows just those conversations that feel so nurturing and so important to again a wish to reconnect with with that that experience, or or it's a sensory experience as well, so that brings that sense of connection to to self and and and to others, you know, having memories of maybe being out uh door or exploring, going to places with with other people and with families or friends. So yeah, and them as a couple they were talking about how they both love it. One of them was in that so well. I love the downs as well, which are the hills behind Brighton. So we have both, we are so lucky, and um, but both of them were saying, But I love coming and visit you because they don't live together, and and just spending that that that walk on on the sea now has become you know so meaningful. I want to go out all the time and and having those those um you know moments of connection. Um, so yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'm wondering what's next for you, Chiara. Where are you heading? Because I, you know, with your project.
SPEAKER_01Well, um, I certainly want to do more of this work. Um there was a bit of a blow in the light of what I said before about how difficult it is sometimes to promote ecotherapy as a valid form of therapy in public services. Um the the adoption support fund that that that supports financially the work I do with with adoptive families said that no, ecotherapy is not allowed, doesn't fit the criteria. So um, yeah, that was a bit of a shock. So, but I hope to continue to do more of this work and uh and to run more ecotherapy groups. You know, I have um luckily I I was uh awarded two two two pots of funding from the look the local council, actually, Brighton Hope. So I'm very pleased about that to run more ecotherapy groups, and I would like to offer it to refugees because I believe that there is a lot of scope to you know help refugees to look after themselves by connecting to nature as possibly something that connects to to their own um country as well, and um relying less on language and yeah, and just connecting to to other people with similar experiences. But I don't have links, so there is more work networking to do, but that's that's one idea, one uh other idea to run an ecotherapy group for dementia carers, um, because uh my dad had dementia, so I have that kind of uh uh uh uh experience myself, so I would like to offer it to to maybe people who are caring for dementia, uh family member with dementia. Um so yeah, that's that. But my I have a bit of a dream I want to share it, uh just in case um somebody says, Okay, I can fulfill your dreams. Uh my dream is to have uh a wooden cubbing in the woods, or maybe in the heart of the community. I don't know. I'm really in between. I've been looking for three years, but you know, it may happen because my yeah, my dream is to have a a hub where um different therapists, yoga therapists, ecotherapists, uh, dancers. Um, I love movement as well. Um embodied embodiment therapists, all of those more body-based and nature-based um therapies can can be offered to to the local community and to children and families. So yeah, and then a book, hopefully. I will write a book about about all of this.
SPEAKER_02Um I can definitely vouch for your writing. I was so moved reading the piece that you wrote. It really, really touched me. So a book, I hope that will that will be there alongside your cabin.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well, thank you for that. That that's useful feedback because yeah, when you write, you never know. You you yeah, I've become very self-critical and I felt a bit more like a dissertation experience. So um, but in the end, yeah, I was pleased, but also to get feedback and to know that people want to know more and and you know, and it's not about saying, well, do what I do, it's more about inviting people to find their own ways of practicing in nature. That's what I would be keen to um to do, to to really invite people into a dialogue and and and really inspire them to do their own thing in nature.
SPEAKER_02Um yeah, I mean for me, it really reconnected me to my relationship to nature and it made me rethink my, I don't know if that's rewilding, maybe, but um, you know, my my practice to to take and to to consider more sort of you know, nature to be part of it.
SPEAKER_00You know, it literally feels like out-the-box thinking, right?
SPEAKER_01Like kind of embodying out the box thinking, which is a very we probably need I I feel that systemic people, certainly my training. I mean, I was I finished in 2008, and maybe hopefully it's changed a little bit in terms of being very cognitive, you know, always emphasis on learning about asking the right question. Uh yeah, I struggle with that, and and I feel that our field has moved into a lot uh in the thinking part of our uh our ourselves, and then we need to bring more embodiment ideas and and emotions in into the mix, and and nature certainly brings all of that together. So um yeah, so I think it we we will evolve and and uh and yeah, it's very exciting. I I suppose to think that we can evolve into something else, and uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00All very exciting, and I I hope that the next stage is um fruitful. And I I do would love to see the cabin one day.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yes, I will let you know.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thank you so much, Laura. It's been really eye-opener.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, thank you for giving me this opportunity because it's good for me to rethink and revisit and and honour of ours, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Real pleasure to speak to you and hear about this stuff, and it's really triggered a lot of stuff for me to go and find out about and apply to my work. So, thank you.
SPEAKER_01Great, thank you so much.
SPEAKER_00All right, all the best.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, have a good weekend.
SPEAKER_02Right, thank you.