The Systemic Way
The Systemic Way Podcast is a therapy and mental health podcast featuring conversations with experts, practitioners, researchers, and people with lived experience from the worlds of systemic psychotherapy, family therapy, psychology, social work, and community practice. Hosted by Sezer and Julie, two systemic and family psychotherapists, the podcast explores mental health, relationships, trauma, resilience, social justice, culture, and change. Through engaging discussions on theory, practice, and real-world experiences, listeners gain a deeper understanding of how systemic and relational approaches can support individuals, families, organisations, and communities.
Artwork by Arai Drake Creative: http://www.araidrake.com/portfolio/thesystemicway
Music by Rena Paid
The Systemic Way
Contextual Equine Therapy - The Experiential Power of Bringing Together Horses, Families and Therapy: In conversation with Hesther Selbeck
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In this episode we explore the personal and professional journey of Hesther Selbeck, a Dutch Systemic Psychotherapist and developer of Contextual Equine Therapy. Hesther takes us on a ride through the development, theory and practice that underpins her model.
Contextual Equine Therapy is a form of systemic therapy in which horses are used as co-therapists. The interaction with the horses provides a (deep) experiential form of therapy in which clients come into contact with their emotions and are mirrored in their behavior.
During the treatment, two psychotherapeutic methods are united: equine therapy (Eagala Model) and systemic therapy. The Eagala Model sees the horse as a sensitive co-therapist, the team facilitates. Equine therapy focuses on the emotional experience and giving meaning to the behavior of the animals in response to client(s).
Hesther Selbeck has developed this treatment based on her background and expertise as a systems therapist in Child and Youth Mental Health Care. There she encountered a challenge in changing patterns between family members and generating hope and perspective. She questioned the context of the clinic on the psychiatric behavior of young people. While traveling on horseback through Mongolia, she discovered a process of interaction between her and the horse. There was an interaction going on. These insights and experiences became the basis for the approach.
www.hestherselbeck.nl
Welcome to the Systemic Way. In today's episode, we meet with Hester Selbek, who is a systems therapist in the Netherlands and Catalonia, which is the developer and leader of the contextual equine therapy program, where she combines equine therapy, horseback riding, and systemic therapy. We also talk about Hester's book, The Mongolian Horse, The Girl and the Therapist, which is a loving and humorous book, which has been described to be reminiscent in the style of Bridget Johnson's diary, where she talked about the development of the program and her own journey in creating the concept and the approach. Judy, what are some of the things that stuck out for you in me and Hesper?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think you've touched upon it a bit in your introduction so actually, when I described her with the budget joint with her book, in the I loved the way we had her personal journey to get Mongolia to go on this force back trip that she went on, but also how that has sort of been interwoven with her professional journey and where that's taken her. I always find that quite inspiring to hear George said it before. It takes us into the nonverbal and the sacredness of the connection with another being. And some of these non-human and just how much nurturing and knowledgement can be got from that and then can be fed through to feeding back into human relationships.
SPEAKER_02And it was really fascinating to hear how Hester spoke about the use of equine therapy in a family therapy approach, you know, and it spoke about the kind of the use of the animals and attachment figure. And from my understanding of equine therapy, that's a very kind of you know, a typical kind of use of uh the idea, the model. Um but what we get to hear from Hester is how she's brought the family into this in her approach. And the idea of like bringing the family into the herd behavior and learning from that and creating an attachment with the herd and then being able to use those non-verbal cues of feedback and response, and being able to then take that into your uh everyday life to be a different way in your family, you know, a more useful way. But of course, a beautiful discussion and explanation of approach. And it just sounds uh to me. I mean, touching back on what you said about the kind of how inspiring it is to hear people talk about their own passion stories. But what really stuck out for me is how authentic uh it came across and how authentic the idea and organic the idea was um from somewhere in a real deep place. Um yeah, we really really enjoyed meeting with Esther. Um we hope you all enjoy the podcast and listen to her. Um, we'll put a few links into the podcast of where to find out some more work with her, and you'll get to hear in the podcast of where you could actually go and join her as well. So yeah, hope you all enjoyed the episode.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so welcome to the topic way. And in today's episode, we're going to be speaking to Hester Selbeck with a family therapist from the Netherlands. And today we're going to be talking to you about contextual horse therapy. So welcome, Hester. It's lovely to have you here today.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Thank you, Gilly. And Saver.
SPEAKER_02Thanks. We're we're really excited to hear about this approach, Hester. Um before we go into it and we explain what contextual horse therapy is. Um it'd be nice to just maybe tell us a little bit about yourself and the work that you do, um, how you became a family therapist.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I I will. Um, my name is Hester, and I work in Seitschermer, that's uh a small village in the north of Holland. And um I'm a family therapist in private practice. So um close to a farm was also my practice is in a farm. Uh, and I'm a developer of contextual horse therapy, and uh that's a method where I uh where I work in Spain, and um for me it was a long way to to develop the contextual horse therapy, and I uh did my education in Harlem at the Lawrence House, and that's almost 10 years ago.
SPEAKER_01Oh wow, and can I just ask you before we go on to the um horse therapy, what drew you or inspired you to um become a family therapist?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I always um I worked as a as a health um okay, I remind the um the the weakest. Um I work in the um in the psychiatric uh hospital for young people, and um after that I became uh a health um yeah um jeugdbeschermer. In in Holland is um uh you're responsible for children who are on um um yeah, it's very complicated to explain. To um on the um it's a um on the government, for example, children.
SPEAKER_02Would it be like the child protection plans that kind of exactly?
SPEAKER_00So I I was a coordinator of um as a child um protector um um yeah, manager or something, and then I realized I wanted to to become more um more meaningful to the children and the parents because I was the the boss in in um with science, um but they didn't, I I couldn't um um build a um a relationship on trust because the the whole focus of the the job was to control, to manage, to to be higher than the people, the clients. So at that time I all I was very young, and I I immediately wondered, okay, how can I be more yeah uh worth worthy for my clients, and then I realized I have to to become a therapist. So I'm going to educate myself as a therapist, and three years later, uh I was um I was ready uh and finished my uh education as a family therapist. So this was for me a very important time because I also had a um a client, for example, it was all always very sad because his um his father murdered his mother, and I realized I had no time to speak with him because I I was all only busy with writing papers and phone calls, and then I had to go speaking other uh professionals, and there was a one moment he uh we went to his school, and he was only running from school, and he was over everywhere, but not at school, and then he ran away from me to the tram, and I was like, okay, this is not how I want to work, I want to it had to be different, so yeah, this was very important for me. Um, an experience, yes.
SPEAKER_01And and when you said that it had to be different, where did that different take you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, now after that, um I had a vision from Mongolian horses. I was very young, I was 21 years old or something like that, and I was in the kitchen with my ex-boyfriend, and I and we were going to separate it, and he was like, Okay, I'm I'm taking this uh knife and I'm taking this pen. And I was like, at that time, uh suddenly I saw Mongolian horses on my uh view in my eyes, and I was like, Okay, I feel really relaxed and calm, and um, and after that, I immediately knew uh after two years I go to Mongolia and ride horseback. So yeah, that was very um uh important for me because I was just finished my uh education as a family therapist, and I already also had a lot of experience to work with families um as a family student, uh family therapist student, and I realized that I could not um I could not uh focus on the relationship pattern. I could focus it, but I could not change it because the the room um the context of therapy is super important. For example, I was in a small um small room and I speak with five five people, five um uh members of a family about violence, about uh a lot of passion, about anger and emotions, and I feel uh locked myself. And that was before Mongolia. Um and I thought this this is not the way because it's this my sentence, and oh, it was too close. So then I go to Mongolia on horseback, um, and that inspired me a lot to work with horses. And um I'm I'm yeah, and then uh after that I'm going to combine the the horses with my family work.
SPEAKER_02I'm interested in that period in Mongolia. Um I I've read your paper, we but Julie and I both read your paper in preparation for today. You talked uh about that period being very inspirational when it was two months. Oh yes, right, and you had um you spoke about these moments of kind of like um like flashing insights of the feedback you were getting from from the horse on your emotional state, and then kind of brought up. Could you tell us a bit more about those?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yes, of course, yes. For me, uh I went on my own to Mongolia and um I wanted to ride a lot of time on horseback, and my first um my first uh experience on a horse was very uh was bizarre because I couldn't ride horse, and I was just in my training uh suit and my um my dash uh shoes. Just I walked uh over the steppe uh and then I saw a Mongolian man uh and he was drunk and he said, Okay, you want to ride on my horse? I said, Yes, I want, and it's not in uh uh just with non-fotal uh communication. And I thought, okay, I want this because this is the reason I'm in Mongolia. And um when I immediately when I stood on the horse and I sit on the horse, the horse was he just going in galop and he just ran over the steppers, and I realized, okay, I I can I have no control about myself. I'm I'm not a leader, I'm I I don't feel my body. So uh for when I realized that I I pulled the the the towels, I pulled the um the strings, and then he stopped. Um and at that time I just was I I finished my uh education as a family therapist. Um I was overworked, maybe I was a burnout, I had a burnout, I think. And I realized okay, I I need to become more connected with my body and more connected with myself. And after this was a one experience, but after that I ride uh more um long, uh long ways on the horse. For example, uh two weeks um at the Holy Lake, Kosko Nur, it's called. Some people say uh the monster from uh Oslo's nest is living because it's super long and super beautiful, um, a beautiful lake, and I become more and more connected with myself, and I became more calm, uh, I became more um inner inner strength, and I became an autonomous person, and um it was super inspiring because, for example, when I feel anxious and I I walk to my horse, I immediately felt uh how I felt in my body, and I felt uh an interaction between me and the horse, but also in the other way around, because one day um we had to cross a lake, it was like uh old bridge, we had to cross water, and my horse was like, Oh my god, I'm not going to cross this. And I said, Okay, calm, calm, and I felt the calmness in myself, and then I realized, okay, we have a pattern, it is interactional, and um yeah, and uh um through through the horseback on Mongolia and all the riding, and I became so inspired that I thought, okay, I'm going to combine my um family therapy work with horses. And then I didn't know how to figure it, but I'm going to do that. So that was a very strong feeling inside me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I suppose I was just wondering if um, I mean it's really inspirational and it makes me think about the importance of the topic of target and the embodiment of a target and the whole and how it made you feel is it's important to take forward to when you're in a room with a family. But I know that also extends to the room, the surroundings that you might be in because you spoke about the feeling you got in the room.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, I think the context, also Mongolian in Mongolia, I had a lot of space and uh I was I could uh connect with nature and it was a super safe environment for myself, but it also realized me that in therapy, uh the color of a wall, the the smell of um this our sentence and and the way how um a therapy room is uh the colors and the the furniture, it's very important because there's a connection between how you feel inside and the how we are attached to to the surrounding. Because, for example, when I did my horseback in a super industry industrializational way, or just only in a city I could I I I was on horseback, it had a completely different experience. Um, because for me the the nature is I think is super important to um um to integrate in therapy uh in therapy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I I mean I I feel like in some ways we're touching upon and we're moving towards finding out what contextual horse therapy is. So I'm I'm wondering, I don't know for you, Cesar, if you feel like this is a moment for us to understand a bit more about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yes, it's a good bridge. Yes, because uh what I didn't tell in the first part is um that I worked in uh a child center for child uh for children with a lot of uh complex psychiatric behavior. And at the time I was uh the family therapist uh combined um with research about the relationship between the behavior and the family patterns. And what I saw in the uh institution was that the children, especially uh children um between 12 and 18 years old with a less identity, so very insecure about themselves, a lot of anxiety, that they're inspired, that they're aspiring each other to behave more um um yeah, more mad. It's not a good way to experience to describe this, but they um they um inspire to behave more destructive in destructive ways to themselves. For example, eating poison, um cutting their arms, cutting their legs. But before they entered the building, they didn't do that. So I thought, okay, is this the way I want to work? And it feels me very uh also powerless because um how I felt in the in the room when I give therapy, also I was a safe person, a safe therapist, and um I said, okay, you feel like this, and I acknowledge emotions. I couldn't um uh I couldn't change the interaction patterns, and I couldn't uh learn the children and the parents to reflect on themselves because and I thought, okay, is this the uh environment or can there be another environment? Can there be another uh surrounding who I what I can create a more in a more idealistic way? And so all these uh experiences I combined, and then the contextual horse therapy was born. So my experience on my horseback to Mongolia, my experience in the uh child center, and um and and there was a one moment I thought, okay, I'm going to quit, and then I'm going to put the contextual horse therapy in the world, and then I get my first client. So and I already um uh did a TEDx talk in the Thetics Harlem, and I I I speak about it to other people, but it only uh manifested when I felt felt it in my toes. I felt it really deep inside me, and then um yeah, then it worked. So I speak with the pro other professionals and um and I get my first client.
SPEAKER_02I'm really interested in how you took that leap and how that that first spit manifested from being an idea of yours. Um quite it sounds like quite a personal idea as well for your for your own journey professionally and personally. Yes, yes, and then bringing it into the into the world of well into the world, and what what the reaction was like initially from people.
SPEAKER_00First they thought, okay, Hester, you're this is not possible. You you you cannot go to to Spain, or you cannot go have children clients in Spain or in Catalonia, and um okay, okay, and then after that, there's also a lot of resistance, like okay, then you go with the client to to Spain and work with horses, and after that, what you're going to do? So for me, it was a more um also um uh I I guess to more like um okay, I have to uh to do it very well.
SPEAKER_02Was it like a lot of um pressure?
SPEAKER_00I feel pressure, yeah, exactly. I felt pressure to to to show the world that this is this is a good way of uh another way to to get therapy, yeah. But uh immediately I let it go because uh I was so convinced that uh when I combine anxiety uh children who are very anxious and had a lot of psychiatric behavior when I combine with horses, I felt really deep that they're going to get better. Not all we cannot all um fix all things, but they can you can uh knock a thing a little bit out of the wall, a brick, and you can more open them. And there have they have all uh a kind of way a therapy a therapy resistance way, but we can open them a little bit so they can more um they're open more to to other therapy and just um in a more regular way, and yeah, and then um then we can help them. So I can I I can um tell you a little bit about my first client, um Rosie.
SPEAKER_02Please.
SPEAKER_00Yes. So Rosie has uh, for example, four other institutions where she lived in the in the psychiatry. She had she took a lot of medication, uh, she had different uh diagnoses like borderline trauma. Uh some people thought she's autistic. Um she gets AMDR, but the AMDR um yeah, she she didn't open the herself themselves, and uh she also was suicidal. Um and she she cut herself. So in the fourth institution, um she gets in the closed youth center. It's like a prison for uh, in my experience, like a prison, and it with an isolated um Cells and um it'd be like a secure unit, I guess, is yeah, it's like now nowadays we speak in Holland a lot about uh it's not working anymore. Um, but nowadays there was. Uh yeah, it's like a a child institution, like a psychiatric uh hospital, but then with all closed walls. So you could you could not leave, yeah. Um so the mother, uh, when I finished my work in the in the child hospital, the mother um called me and said, Okay, Esther, I know can you can you do something with our yeah, can you help us? So, and then I thought, okay, this is the client I want to to give the um to start the pilot with, because yeah, all the other therapists, yeah, um they all did all kinds of things. They tried everything, so clinical, uh, AMDR, um, cognitive therapy, all kinds of things. And I thought, okay, we just do it. And I knew that this girl loves chickens. So I I know that she took a chicken also to um to a formal uh meeting with professionals and the judge, um, and it calms her down. Um so I spoke, I spoke with all the professionals, and I get a um I get a green light to to work with her. And um we also spoke about uh together we take the responsibility because I also said it's a pilot, I cannot give uh uh guarantee I can I can help her. Um, and I can also don't lock her up because I'm in an open place at a horse wrench, but uh the horse wrench is in a completely um uh uh it's in a forest, so she she cannot go away, she cannot go to a cafe or to a disco. They're only trees and animals. Okay, so we we we do that, and um what I saw um she also she flew with the sociotherapist to to Catalonia, and um yeah, immediately we start with the therapy because it's um oh maybe I can first uh explain also what is contextual horse therapy, then you have a better um image. Please, yes, yes, yeah, it's always it's too vague. Um, so the this is it's a program uh from 10 days, uh, and the child the child uh gives uh horse therapy, family therapy, and we ride horseback with the child with the children, and the second week that's the first five days, and the second week the parents are coming and the brothers and sisters, and the second week there also is coming uh another co-therapist, a family therapist, because then the whole process we focus on the interaction patterns of the family. But the first week I work with um a horse therapist, a horseback trainer, a sociotherapist, and myself. So we're the team, and the second week also did see that team, but there come becomes uh there comes another uh therapist. And um with the case I'm telling about with Rosie, um the first thing we always do is ride on horseback. So with Rosie, home horseback was okay and no no problems, and she she really loves horses. But when we want to work formally with the horse therapy, she gets an anxiety uh attack, a panic attack on the on the ranch, and she hides herself in the in the tree in the chair, and um the sociotherapist was with her, but he couldn't connect with her only with words. She was scratching herself and she was she had a lot of anxiety, and then I walked to her and I also wanted to talk with her, but immediately I felt okay, I I cannot connect with you with words and my hand, it's not possible. So I walked down. I felt like um I'm a military operational operational because I felt really responsible, of course, also for the safety. And uh then I get to my colleague and I said, I want a horse, give me now a horse, I will need to go up. So I get horse Brazil, and Brazil is like the porse of the horses, he's very beautiful, he's super sensitive, he's brown and um um, yeah, very warm, warm horse, super, super sensitive horse. And with Brazil, I walked to to Rosie and my colleague, and I said, Rosie, this is Brazil, you take her, take him now down. I um then I worked them very in a directive way, and then she was like, Okay, she was like a little bit confused, but she gets uh Brazil, and with Brazil and my colleague and me, we walked down to the to the paddock, and there we just then was the moment I thought, okay, now the therapy is starting and now we can work. And um in the first week, the formal therapy combines two um two formal horse therapy uh sessions from four hours, it's very long, also with uh pauses between. But what we saw was that she um that she needs a lot of um close combination of close um nabay. I'm looking for the word nabeheide in Holland. It's like um she she needed to help from the horse therapist. So the horse therapist gets her hand, and then together they work with the horse. Like guidance, like support, guidance, support, yes, yeah. And after two days, she did the ex she didn't um she did the exercise alone, and so we saw a growth. We saw that she grew in her confidence, she was more open. In the first week, she was in the first day, she was really like with her head inside and more her her shoulders were uh high, and then um she could uh work with Brazil because Brazil and her was very good, um, good combination. She could tell Brasil to walk uh to walk around and um to follow her. And when you want to uh that a horse follows you, you have to be close to yourself, but also uh felt in a way um you you need to felt trust, and you also need to work with your body. And what we see, and what what my experience is with uh children with a lot of psychiatrical problems, they're not in their body, there's their anxiety um has the power. So I saw that she became more aware of her body and she became more forced, uh forta. So yeah, that was for me, I'm very happy because I saw her more uh growing. Um, so this was my first experience with my first client uh in the individual week of the contextual horse therapy.
SPEAKER_02Before we go on to the second week when the family comes, there's so much richness in that. Um I would like to that moment you spoke about when you said you were very directive because and and you brought Brazil to to Rosie and said, you know, you take um Brazil now. Yeah, which followed up too. Um and then you you felt yeah it's at the start now. What was it about that moment? What what what did you um see from her? Um or what did you feel within yourself that kind of gave you that belief?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I felt um, yeah, sorry, it was very satisfying because in my head I knew it would work, but now I saw literally with my own eyes that it worked. So I was grateful, but I I was at the moment I was also super focused and super in a super responsible way. Um we have to to build trust with her and we have to um to work.
SPEAKER_01I was I would think it has something throughout this conversation. Um, uh I was I was wondering about you said and just already believe it and having trust in yourself. How much that would have given us the right how powerful that is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I and in Mongolia I felt because when you work with children with a lot of anxiety, because there was continuously the the um um the option that Rosie did a suicidal um um effort to to to do something harm to herself. So it's an enormous risk as a therapist to work with children. You cannot guarantee that you could you can work, you can help them. And in Mongolia, I um I dive into my own fears, and I felt so um powerful uh because of first not. First I was like, okay, I'm I'm going to Mongolia on horseback, and I was like more insecure and more shy. I can still be shy, but I could um there were a lot of moments where I can uh where I died in my own fears, and I also described it in my book that behind the fear there's only trust and love. So I I felt one with myself and I felt one with the universe. It was also a spiritual uh journey. And um in the in childcare, uh especially in the in the psychiatry, we could we speak not a lot about uh spiritually or the soul, but I think it's an important thing because um yeah, I think I connect with my soul, and uh when I work with the children, uh especially with the case I now describe, I also connect with my soul, and that's in in a super powerful.
SPEAKER_01It made uh and it was reminding me in terms of I suppose the systemic world and systemic language. Um, it made me think of the mystery bit of BMM. There's a there's a bit of mystery in terms of all of this of what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. I I uh that's a very good uh explanation because it's it's not it's just like life. Life is a mystery, and I think uh sometimes we think we know things, but we don't know uh we don't know. And I want to know because I I I um I describe what I'm doing and I I I I write articles about my work, but still I I think it's a little bit uh magic when you work with the horse because you you could not say, okay, when you do this, he's going to behave like this. Um but that's also uh in an uh a thing, um it's integral, it's um it it it it it intrigues me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. Hearing you both talk, uh it just reminds me of in Hollywood they always say never work with children or animals um because of the um how unpredictable both are.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_02I guess an academic approach that embraced um the unknown. Um I was also um thinking about when you were telling the story and uh when the back of the question is about uh how well you must have experienced you in that moment as well. When you went uh with that uh in a way um you had a lot of stuff going on, but you know, you kind of have a lot of stuff to uh with the how you must have experienced that because constantly uh constantly uh I'm trying to find a word, but uh so um you can you talk about how they kind of sense of systems or that they can make changeable changeable. Yeah, that idea gets reinforced by the system because we've done everything now, we don't know what else we can offer you within the kind of standard fabric of therapy. Yes, given that confidence of we're gonna try something different, um, and this may work. Um how she experienced in that moment, that being a powerful moment for her.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it's it's beautiful that you that you asked me that because yes, it's a very interesting question. Um Rosie told me after that that she said, okay, I think you I think the horse, the horse is not judging me. So the I I felt more uh uh safe with the horse, and that was the reason I was going with you, and also um um to work with horses, the the trust that she felt, she felt also with team. So the the horse was a bridge, and also she said, okay, the um I felt more relaxed and calm in myself when I'm near a horse. So I'm also more calm and relaxed with you as a therapist, as a person. Uh so yeah, that's very powerful to work with horses and children because it's really uh true what you're saying, what you say is that this children, and there are a lot of children who say who think there cannot be um they're failing, they don't do it right. There's very powerful thoughts they have it in inside them. And when you work with animals, for especially with horses, and also uh with donkeys, because the donkey um then his name is Bucci, uh, she also felt very uh safe with with the donkey. It's very yeah uh positive and and funny uh to to work with them. Because therapy is also very formal and very heavy, and okay, therapy, yeah, we have to go to therapy. I think we can when you approach it in a more lighter way, and just okay, you just go to learn about yourself, and um you just want to to change and to felt more confidence inside you. Yeah, and the when you work with animals, they're they're very um uh low to to work with. Very so I think that's also very important with therapy.
SPEAKER_01And I I don't know if you might have a another another question around this, but my mind is going on to what's it like when the family came and so what do they notice and how does that um what does that look like? Yeah, it must be quite different for them when they come to this place.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yes, but it's um always when the family comes, immediately there is a crisis. Yeah, so when we we work very uh intensive for five days with the child, and the child is more develops himself, then the the parents are coming immediately when they arrive, immediately the child does the same psychiatric behavior as when when they arrive. It's not on the clock, but very, very soon. And so immediately there's work uh for the therapist team because uh this is the reason why you you brought every everybody together.
SPEAKER_02And what's your thinking around why that why that occurs, why that patterns happens?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because it's so deep. Um the the feeling, for example, when when you think, okay, my parents don't love me, um, I'm here on my own. Okay, now the parents are coming to me, and now I need to show I'm I'm a better person. So they feel pressure inside inside them. Because uh the therapy, the context is not yeah, there's a low pressure, there's no pressure, because when you work with animals, yeah, you you can you can do what you want, but they're just like okay, relax, I'm in the here and the now, and I just do my thing. Um so when we worked with the horses and the family, um then there um then we could uh speak about the different things in the family, and then the family uh felt more um yeah, more um trustworthy to speak about the the the problematic things uh but uh that bit is a crucial stage, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02That uh transference is how I'm beginning to understand. I'm probably using the word wrong, but in it's the first week the horse is like a temporary attachment feedback that the young person gets to kind of um re-establish uh um positive attachment feedback from from from the horse is how I'm understanding from those feedback loops that you were talking about earlier. And then transferring that to uh the family back to the family once it's been established with the animal, with the horse. Um how tricky that could be. So when when the family comes, what is the first thing? So they go into a crisis, you have to manage that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02What is the kind of first few things? Um maybe in Rosie's story, what was the kind of first steps that you took to kind of address that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I first I um um for this family where we now speak about, it was uh completely uh it was not possible in in Holland to just sit normally at a table and eat. It is yeah, it's a very normal thing, just eating with each other and just sit at a table. So, first we said, okay, we don't go to speak about different things, we just eat with each other and go back to normal. Go, it's it's really go back to the basic, to the basic things. So uh first we we managed that, and um then we did the horse therapy. And what I saw was that the father said to me, Um, okay, we now work with the horses because they did the exercise a future, past, present. And then the father learned from the horse that he with we uh he had a child who is four um I'm in the sun a little bit, like this. Um who had a career in the psychiatric for four four institutions long, and in when all the the the speaking in the institutions and the the stress and all the the anxiety because of the um the worrying about his child, when he was near the horse, he said, Okay, now I literally uh experienced how I feel. So he cried a lot with the horse, and when he cried, uh also the child saw his her her father like more um more relief, more there was more oxygen. And we did a lot of exercises with this family, uh, a lot of interaction um exercises with the horses, for example, work together, um and and yeah, all things. But the for me, the most beautiful part was that the mother at the end, uh we also we we ate at the breakfast table, and she said to her daughter, uh Rosie, um, I'm so sorry, I um I I did pain to you. I I uh I'm so sorry. And then she walked to her daughter, and her daughter was all the way like this, and she got uh she bought uh a little um uh bracelet and she gave it to her. And this mother is also was also um did not learn to she could not um do um to be uh to calm herself. Her mother did this mother didn't learn that. Yeah, she also had problems, regulate herself, yeah. So what we saw with the horse, um she learned that a little a little bit, like uh okay. I can uh look to myself, and with the team we spoke a lot, and we we we get a lot of holding for this family speaking, and we're here for you. And okay, what do you want? What do you need? Consciously um give it back. Um so this was for me. I saw okay, the pattern is a little bit changed because the mother can reflect to herself, and in the institution where I also work with this family, she could not. So that learned me that the um the um the availability of the horse nearby is at was also attachment figure for this mother. So this was the last day of the therapy, and it and um
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I suppose I was just wondering how you know what happens afterwards after they've been on this you know journey with the horses and then they go back to their lives.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Now uh uh always before the the context for horse therapy starts, we all always coordinate the therapy afterwards. Because when you don't do that, it's it's it's yeah, it's less it's uh less powerful because you have to continuously go through with the journey. Um so the family uh was getting uh family therapy and also ambulante therapy um from a sociotherapist who also is working in Spain. Because this sociotherapist is a super important figure, he's like um mother, father, friend, uh like um yeah, he's very close to the child. Like they're having fun together, they they sing sometimes, or they're making music. Um, and what we see that the trust, the building the trust is a very important thing, and also uh to integrate the the therapist who works in Spain, um uh continue continues in in Holland. So what we see in in the effect in the results that the relationship between the mother and daughter and and um was getting better, and the symptom the symptoms um reduced. And um, this is uh um my first case, for example, but what we did an exploratory study to other children who um other clients who who follow the context for horse therapy, and uh in together with the UMC in Amsterdam, um a professor in uh child psychiatry, and the effects were that the symptomatology is reducing, so they get less psychiatric problems, and the results and the relationship between a mother and a child is becoming better. Not the father, because uh less fathers were um were at the at the context of horse therapy. I think that's the reason. But um, so this is very important uh results, and I'm very happy to um yeah, that that it's it's in the the results of the exploratory study, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Fascinating results, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, fascinating, yeah, yeah. But I for me it's not um I think the context of horse therapy is just really normal thing because you combine nature and basic um ingredients to a human being, and maybe um because now I am for seven years I'm busy with this work and it's my passion and it's my life. Um but I it's also uh wondering uh maybe the child and with the problems are a result of society. So uh also with my book, I'm becoming aware of maybe um when we integrate more animals and nature in in daily life, less less iPads, less uh iPhones, maybe there are also less psychiatrical problems. That's a that's a very important thing, I think.
SPEAKER_02Sure, and it it just feels like a connection to a very kind of natural primitive part of ourselves. Um that it would be a massive resource for therapy. And the bit I'm thinking about in connecting it to the outcomes that you just spoke about was that uh that the work addresses uh disruptive attachments, and how when children and families in this in your particular program join a herd with with the horses, they become a part of the herd. They have to kind of maybe tell tell us more about that process, Hester.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because um in at the ranch where we work in in Catalonia, there are 14 horses and one donkey, Butchi. And Bucci is uh always the first one who says hello to the per to the people because donkeys are uh they have more more uh a high uh social intelligence than horses. We don't speak a lot about that, but donkeys are super intelligent. Um but a horse is always wants to connect with you like a human being. A horse sees uh a human being like also another horse, but then another. So uh when you um when you feel that and when you experience that, you learn immediately to connect with your body. Because, for example, when you are a child and you you have that, you need uh if you're going to follow the therapy and you are uh you have a career with other therapists, and uh also with me, you can you can fool me because when you say, Yeah, I'm good, and you feel in inside not I'm not good, but the horse you cannot fool because when you fool a horse, you cannot do anything with him, he's just going to walk away. So when your emotions and your communication are congruent with each other, uh, and you're honest with yourself, then you can connect with the horse. And a horse is a very um big animal, um, it's high, and and he can also make a lot of sounds and he can run very fast. So that's a very powerful tool to interact with.
SPEAKER_02So it becomes um visually and um physically more obvious for young people to get what they're the responses that they might struggle in their family interactions, yeah, exactly, and also always because um when you work with children, now you don't you also don't know you also know that for yourself.
SPEAKER_00It's always a lot of emotions and a lot of stress, and um, when I'm also for myself um in the surrounding with horses, I feel more calm. I can feel calm in myself, but I feel more okay. I'm this powerful thing, and I feel more connected with nature, and also the clients feel that, and so it's it's a it's um a whole mix of um of things. Um but the I what I see with the clients, they also feel more um uh brave to say hard things to each other, like I don't I don't like it when you do like this, or I hate you when you uh when you're going too near me, or or something like that. So the the horses are um are very safe attachment figures, and also they have a very soft skin. You can touch them, you can uh and they're also very sweet to each other because when horses have flies in their eyes, they're going to stand like this, uh and up through my hands, and with their tails, they help each other with the flies. So they're super super social uh uh beings.
SPEAKER_01In a way, I suppose that's like in a way it's a good thing. I'm just wondering if now it's the time for you to talk about that just a little bit without me touched upon it. Um and Anita, can you get the book in English?
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, as well. Now now we speak. The uh part uh a couple of chapters were um uh uh translated in English. So we we were we're getting a publisher in in in London or in America as well, and also in Spain and Brazil or no abroad. Um yeah, my book, the um it's uh the name of my book is The Mongolian Horse, The Girl and the Therapist. And the book is like uh a personal novel about what I told you guys now in in one in 50 minutes. Um, and it starts my career in the uh as a therapist and how I um and which steps I I take to to develop the context for horse therapy. And the most part of the biggest part is my journey to Mongolia, because I uh also um I met other people and I'm I'm a super uh curious person, so I I was very curious to myself, but I had also also a hard reality uh with my own relationship with my own parents, so I was always nurturing for my mother, and my um my father is a more uh distant uh person. So the the Mongolian horse was also a therapist for myself, but also I meet um a CEO from from a big company, and um I had I have a lot of experience to to find out who I who am I and uh what kind of therapist um want what yeah need want I to be. Because for me, a therapist is also like uh with uh wooden socks or like um like a dusty thing. Um and I think I find my own way to to approach uh the my uh my personal um development as a therapist. And in my book, you you're going on a journey with me because it's very uh I wrote it very close to the to myself. So and I between the lines, um I I ask myself a lot of questions. For example, uh, is it my anxiety or the other, or why I why I'm on a horseback on Mongolia, or or what the fuck do I do I do in Mongolia? So it's also very funny, and I take my um my own things on uh on a block. Um but it's it's it's inspiring to uh to write to write my book because I had a lot of experience and a lot of life experience. So when writing, it feels more uh digested in myself. And um in the end, I'm like a hasty uh zero or second uh point zero, has to taper nil. A better person, I'm a better person of myself, and um in the end of the uh the my book, um yeah, you you you read about my journey also when I go to Spain, because uh I tell you guys about Mongolia, but I also had a journey to Spain, so all the ingredients together, um yeah, you you read how I um developed the context for horse therapy.
SPEAKER_02Wow, uh very much look forward to reading that.
SPEAKER_00Oh nice, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because before I go to Mongolia, um I did um a mindfulness course uh with my uh psychotherapist in Harlem, and there I find a folder in about Catalonia, it's like a gendow. Um, and I also had um I did a lot of tripasana meditation myself, and I thought, okay, I'm going to go there and I'm going to oh, I need to write my paper for uh the family therapy uh educational. And then I uh when I'm at that place, I asked there, oh, can I go on horseback somewhere? And that was the moment um I couldn't uh um I was meeting the the man who um a couple of years later said to me, you need to to meet uh Jordi Bujaka, and Jordi Bujaka is now my Catalan um colleague in Spain. Yeah, a lot of organic uh bridges. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01I suppose maybe maybe it's not really creating an organic bridge, but I'd like to think it is. I suppose obviously, uh, do you get people internationally going to the camp in Spain? And if people were interested, like how would they find out about it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they can because sometimes I'm in a uh in a magazine. I was, for example, in ONIT magazine, it's an American magazine. Um, but they're welcome. Um, and they can find me at my website. Um, but I the nowadays we're busy with the book, uh publishing it abroad, so that's it's also a possibility.
SPEAKER_02What's the website?
SPEAKER_00Uh uh hestersalbeck.com. Wwhestasalbeck.com. Yes.
SPEAKER_02I I was just gonna say it's such an inspiring story of finding yourself as a therapist, finding your kind of your creativity and harnessing that, and also taking it what it sounds like a massive risk. So working with very risky children away from the um context of safety that professional uh you know psychiatric or whatever they've covered in and taking them out into the place which is so unpredictable. And and and using that as the context for therapy. Um I mean, yeah, it was lovely to hear Hester. And I'm I'm interested in what your hopes are for the next steps and where you would like to go with it and develop the idea further.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, thanks. Um it's also because um we had a lot of positive results, so I I'm um now I also work with adolescents in for five days in a program for five days, and we get also the same results like the the children. Um and it's my goal because that's that's also the reason why I wrote a lot of articles, and now I have um we have five or six um uh articles on my name um to to get more that it become more normal to integrate nature and to work with animals. And I'm very happy because this year I started to give trainings to the Rhino group. Maybe you know, it's in Holland um for uh psychiatrists, uh psycho uh uh clinical um psychologists to to get to get a training, and I give their uh training two and a half days in a method of context to horse therapy, but also how you combine nature and other animals, because now I speak a lot about horses, but it's also a very funny way to work with chickens or with dogs. Um and it's um so uh for me it is a very uh big step um to become yeah, to give trainings about the methods I create my own. Um but this for me it's um yeah, I'm a very idealistic person, and I think change is now also we need change because there are a lot of children who become more and more uh suicidal. So we need to evolve therapy and we need to create ways to innovate things. And uh this year in April, I start also with uh a trainings module in in Catalonia um to educate uh other family therapists in the context of horse therapy way. It's a um a small training for in in three days, they stay five days, um, but then they learn how you can work with a horse and to create um individual individual reflection on the person, but also how how you can change patterns between families in in interaction. Um so that's yeah, I'm I'm super happy with that. And I feel also I um have a lot of experience now for when when I with seven years, seven years long doing the context for horse therapy. So yeah, that's that's um that's super yeah, that's super I'm super grateful for that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Wow, it's incredible to hear the whole sort of way that I did it. I guess the self-alling for yourself when you were talking about thinking about the people who are in those roles, how much they would get from going and doing that to then go back to their jobs.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. And I think when you work with people, it's it's the most important thing as a therapist to to take care of yourself. First you need to take care of yourself, and then you can take care of others. Absolutely. Yeah, and I think the because the the environment of the context of horse therapy gives myself also a lot of um uh um it feeds me. It's like because the environment is so inspiring. And nature is is a it's a big gift to to work in. And mountains and and and trees. Yeah, but that's nature. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It's a beautiful, beautiful setting. Um lovely, Hester. It's been a real pleasure meeting you today. Thank you so much for giving us the time and and and sharing your story with us. Um and thank you.
SPEAKER_00It was lovely to to speak with you, uh Guy. Yeah, super.
SPEAKER_02Uh definitely look forward to seeing the developments and and the book, and we'll put a link for for your website in our podcast as well. Um, for people to check out upcoming trainings, maybe if they want to purchase the book.
SPEAKER_01Thanks.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, they're already excited about the outcomes.
SPEAKER_01Uh nice. It sounds like it's such a good book to read whether you're training to be a therapist or you're you're already a therapist and you're just kind of, you know, I don't know, maybe thinking having to rethink about where you're at first, you know, and where you want to go and what you want to do. And I wonder that we might meet in person somewhere. Yeah, that would be lovely thing too. So I'll put that with that.
SPEAKER_00Uh that's super, you're you're very welcome. Yeah. Thank you guys. Yes, thank you.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. That's tough.