Episode 228 | David Rudder

In this unforgettable episode, we sit  with the legendary David Michael Rudder—poet, prophet, and one of the most powerful voices to emerge from Trinidad & Tobago. Rudder speaks openly about his journey through music, from the early days with Charlie’s Roots to his solo classics that became anthems for the Caribbean spirit.

He shares deeply personal reflections on living with polio since childhood, his recent Parkinson’s diagnosis, and how he continues to push forward with courage and grace.

 Rudder also talks about bridging the generational gap, why connecting with today’s youth matters to him, and the enduring power of calypso to tell our stories and shape our future.

It’s a rare, moving, and inspiring conversation with a national treasure.

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome Dr. King David Michael
• 10:12 The Making of High Mass
• 17:38 Calypso Music and Competition Controversy
• 30:15 Writing Process Behind Classic Songs
• 43:02 The Engine Room: Pan Culture
• 56:37 Regional Impact and Future Projects
• 1:21:35 Personal Reflections and Closing

Transcript

Corie: 0:16

So, listen, we're going back into the territory of royalty. I want to welcome Dr King David Michael. How are you going, sir?

Rudder: 0:24

I'm going good super.

Corie: 0:27

You're going good. You're looking good. I was telling you before I started. I was macroing last night and I see you taking a performance on Nigel Campbell's birthday. Happy belated to him. How was that?

Rudder: 0:36

It was great. It was just a passage, just to say happy birthday.

Corie: 0:39

I want to start there. It passed you to say happy birthday, but you do a few. Yeah, it seemed like a man liked to surprise people. My last guest here was Ozzy Merrick. Right, ozzy Merrick, have a story to tell about you and surprising him. Back in the day he came to you to borrow an outfit. He was performing in party time and he was doing lip syncing a David Rudder song. You remember that story? Yeah, and he said it was so easy. It sounds so strange, like to pick up the phone and call David Rudder. You know it sounds like a difficult thing to do. It's a normal thing. People will just usually call him Any help, any help they need. Yeah, that's nice, though that's nice. So he told me he was shocked when he reached party time finals and people started whispering oh David Rudder, here, david Rudder, but I see you do Freetown Collective that this year too. Yeah, how did that come about? Ozzy said he didn't know you were going to come. It was Ozzy Merrick's show. He said he didn't know you were going to be here.

Rudder: 1:28

No, I came. I actually went home, uh-huh, and I told my son. I said I want to use the washroom, so you set this whole thing up. So I walked to the washroom, oh, and at the same time the man started talking about it. So I told him that the girl was there. I come into the washroom, All I'm running from the washroom to them. In the past I see so I said no, I'll say you know what this is our vibe here. Yeah, you know. So I guess.

Corie: 2:03

I see Mohammed Nearly fall down. The whole place In tears Is right here. Special show, special show and a special song too. One of the songs I plan to talk to you About today, but how you felt About Freetown Doing that song so closely related To High Mass.

Rudder: 2:17

Those chords Are like the master chords To me. When you play those chords it brings a certain joy in the spirit. People want to hear that tune, you know, as opposed to some others. But my dream is that, like the younger ones, listen to what I have to say and do their own thing, not what I do. What do I have to do? Yeah, of course, of course so then, when all these things happen, I say that's the path, that's the reason that the music lives of course, yeah, and you give it.

Corie: 2:49

You give it that strength, which is nice to see. You're connecting with them and that kind of thing. I think it's beautiful for the nation to see that and the region to see it when they see people like you connect with and it's good to hear that that is one of your vision for the music as well. But I hope you appreciate how difficult it is to touch your music. I was listening and I realized people don't just do remix of David Rudder songs. They might do songs that in tribute or similar or same chord structure, but they can't sing them over. Yeah, there could be some problems. I don't know how well it will come over, but I had to tell you about a story with me and you in kaiso blues too. You know, because you do me that in my own way too. You know. I know it was the most pleasant surprise. I was nervous like hell.

Corie: 3:29

My father and I have a band that we play, ken kobe and friends. Ken kobe is his name and we were doing a show in kaiso blues. We do kaiso all the time, we do calypso all the time and we were doing road march through the years. I think we started just before Independence and came up to 1990, I believe. And we went through. Of course we had to pass through your songs to get there right, the 86 as well. And as soon as we finished performing, I see you walking up to the stage. I thought you was going to swing at me, you know, because amongst the wrong chord and wrong notes I hit something. But I asked you how you find it was and it was nice. So it's always nice that you show up for these kind of things. I know, I know Kaiso Blues is your spot. That is, that is a lineman spot. Yeah.

Rudder: 4:06

Carl and I when we talk about doing something in trade. That was the dream, Right, yeah.

Corie: 4:11

You know, okay, so. So that's something you've all been talking about for some time.

Rudder: 4:15

Yes, I see all the trades of the business in Miami, right, you know Pecknards and all these places. Okay, he was kind of catching on. That's a hit. So it just brought more of that expertise into Tysa Blues and take it to the next level.

Corie: 4:35

Yeah, this definitely is our next level. It's really nice to see when you're walking through the murals and the tribute that paid to all the people who came before as he entered, so it's beautiful. Now, going back a little bit, before I touch on Haimas, I want to talk about Ozzy and that borrowing of clothes. He was a man of style ever since. Where did you get that sense of fashion and everything from?

Rudder: 4:54

When I started, when I entered the competition, I said, well, I had to get outfit, you know. So there's a guy, they're not. They passed away now Claude Adam and Jeffrey Sanford. They made this thing for me, you know.

Corie: 5:11

That's the yellow suit. That's the yellow thing.

Rudder: 5:13

Which one do you hope to? Probably raffle it or something?

Corie: 5:18

The raffle that'll stay on display. That'll be something that every child that ever born in this country and region should be able to see. You know, Important, important, important. So you keep a lot of those outfits.

Rudder: 5:29

Some of them.

Corie: 5:30

Yeah.

Rudder: 5:30

Some owners went with them.

Corie: 5:32

Like Ozzy.

Rudder: 5:36

Ozzy brought back his official.

Corie: 5:37

He did say so. He did say so. He did say so. He told me. He told me he bring it back. Ozzy, you're right, you tell the truth. We can't tell him. I go out saying this. You tell the truth. That is not bad. Now, high Mass is something I hear you in a previous interview say.

Rudder: 5:53

You write that song at nine years old, yeah yeah, when I went to Belmont I was baptized in Anglican and then my grandmother baptized me in the Baptist church, I see. But when I was ready to go to school, father Graham said they weren't boys, you see. So Father Graham said you can't come to this school unless you're a Catholic. So they come and they do a third one. So I used to go to the church and music was so much a part of my spirit that while everything going on I was listening to the Gregorian chant. You know, dominus Wobbys, cummings, cumperitus Utu, and I think all the songs and the music inside here quite an eloquent song.

Corie: 6:42

Yes, of course.

Rudder: 6:43

People making the song across the kneeling five times, strap again, sit down for two minutes and then you rap again. I just there checking the music.

Corie: 6:52

You waiting for when that call and answer come?

Rudder: 6:55

Even the bell when they're doing the extreme action. Mm-hmm, the arm sorry, not the extreme action.

Corie: 7:03

And now you're acting like a completely non-religious man when they shake the incense oh alright, there's a little bell in the ring yes, yes, alright, yeah, yeah, that's the story, all that all these things attract me, you know.

Rudder: 7:18

So it's like, while people pray and things, I check it out. That song was inside of me for a long time. Yeah, so praying and checking out that song was inside of me for a long time.

Corie: 7:24

Yeah, so that influence of religion in your music came from you loving the music and religion. Yeah, yeah, same thing with the Shango Baptist, and so, yes, so you paying attention to when the music comes. Yeah, so what made it the right time at that time to revisit High Mass?

Rudder: 7:47

Um, it was. How would that happen? I just told my wife. I said you know, I feel this is the time for High Mass. She never liked that song because she took it because I, you know she's a a sacrilege. Yeah. So I said no, this is the right time for this. You know, know, and that's. I wrote this song in a few minutes because it actually took a couple decades to form. It's right there for me all the time.

Corie: 8:15

So I always tell people the fastest ones, the fastest songs that come, the ones that come in three minutes, those are the ones that there's the classics, yeah, but when those are the ones that there's the classics, yeah, but when at a time keep in mind that mid 90s I was a teenager, but there used to be a time when calypsonians sing or anything to do with religion or use things like the chants, they used to get a lot of backlash in the papers. You would hear the religious buddies come out.

Rudder: 8:39

You used to get that also yeah, there's a lot going on too. There's a pro and con you know, but at the end of the day, music. You know all I was trying to say to people who don't want to come out and take a little party and jam and everything, because this is so blasphemous, right, because this field is so blasphemous, right, and it's a Catholic festival, right, because, anyway, that's why there's no, there's no cannibal in, in, in, jobmaker, or Babel yeah, no, this strong Catholic influence.

Rudder: 9:15

They're more Anglican, you know, but anyway there's a Catholic influence. Yeah, that's what what the whole cannibal scene is about, of course, the yeah, that's what the World Carnival scene is about.

Corie: 9:24

Of course, the significance of Ash Wednesday and Lent to follow as well, you're giving yourself to the things of the flesh, mm-hmm.

Rudder: 9:28

And then you say farewell to the flesh. That's what Carnival means, mm-hmm.

Corie: 9:33

You know, got you, of course, carnival, the word itself, yeah yeah, farewell to. I remember people talking about it again polarizing. But a lot of the fat goers say, boy, this man, everybody giving praise. In the middle of the fat Men dancing tempo, people sweating. When you come on the stages, ah man, everybody give praise. You expected that reaction. You have a good sense when you write a song.

Rudder: 9:54

Yeah, I expected that.

Corie: 9:55

Yeah, it's interesting to hear you say that. So when you write generally, you're pretty sure about what, what sure about what, what your response was going to be some songs, like Bayagil, I knew everybody said that's too slow, that's too slow, the biggest roadmatch you know.

Rudder: 10:12

Because I felt I said this tune is a jumbie tune, this tune has something that you know. So said so, done so sometimes I get, I get these songs and I say this one, you, you know, mm-hmm, it's a big one.

Corie: 10:28

It's a big one, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So as I bring it back here, gil, let me talk about it now, because I grew up in a house, and the more you talk to people here, where the older guy at that time, who was the Calypsonians and the Bards, them men and them, say I had an uncle and a grandfather who used to tell me, david, you're singing ballad. I must be five, six years old. I didn't know what the word ballad meant. I had to ask them, well, what's a ballad? And I couldn't understand why they say you're singing ballad because them time your music is top of the chart. I born in 1980, so I come that people was telling you on that kind of thing at the time that you're not singing calypso yeah, that whole.

Rudder: 11:04

I still hear about the ballad. In front with that roaring lion, he's the one who'll say this is this sort of ballad structure and very knowledgeable. I didn't have that time, I just want to play Right.

Corie: 11:20

You know, mm-hmm.

Rudder: 11:21

So, and I think the reason I I like with the character music itself. I pour so much of myself in that song because of this backlash Mm-hmm of me being in the crown and the gold rush and everything Mm-hmm. So I said I had to write something that let them know that I know what they're talking about, something that parts of me that I don't know yet will come out in the summer too.

Corie: 11:50

Well, let's talk about that, Because we'll go 87 before we go 86. Then Because you won everything in 86. You came back as King Rudder in 87. And I heard you say as well that you write Calypso music just after that, after you won. Yeah, so you're taking it to them, you're letting them know what it is, because next man take it to you in that competition. And when my grandmother now bless her soul, she say I don't like this, but here, gail, it's not too much a bam bam. Everything is bam bam in his song. And then Gypsy now had sung. I think the song is Ram Bam Ram.

Corie: 12:21

Bam felt when he sang Rambam it didn't matter to me either, only in the same tent and thing at that time. But I suppose at that time you closed in the tent yeah, I suppose yeah, so he had to sing that.

Corie: 12:31

And you go and come here. You have a chance to respond. So this song for people who don't know what to do, again with the formula to win a crong down in Port of Spain. Every year I come in here strong, I sing in a powerful song. Not for hell they wouldn't give me the calypso crong, uh-huh. But my good, good partner tell me, hey, what you doing wrong. Gypsy, you have too much lyrics in your melody. You know what I mean. Everybody love your tune and they know that you could croon. So sing this one. And they know that you can't go wrong sing rambam. So it's a direct response, though. But here, gil, well, funny enough.

Corie: 13:11

I think calypso, as you say, your two songs in 87 was calypso and dedication, right two. To me it's some of the most masterful writing you would ever. Hear you saying you write calypso fast. Calypso was one of them. They write in a short space of time, serious. Yeah, well, funny enough.

Corie: 13:25

That song he plays second to stalin. Stalin had bunned them, and I believe mr pan makeup, yeah, big, big, uh, win for him at that time. He won before you and after you, and I always want to ask you before we get into the song itself, there's a moment that you see now where they were running down. Who, uh, the, the, the winners then. And of course, then they announced third place and it ended up being you and Stalin, right, and it was announced David Rudder second and Stalin first. And I always remember the visual of that moment, with Stalin Rudder jumping on the stage. But just after that I see you coming on the stage running him down, almost to hug him up and embrace him and congratulate him. What was that moment like for you? You wasn't feeling no way about coming second on that point.

Rudder: 14:07

No, I think everything worked out in a proper way. The country was so polarized at the time. Either I'd rather write or Really yeah, or Stalin.

Rudder: 14:23

Yeah, stalin must be the whole other. You Stalin. Yeah, stalin was the old author. So I always say that I'm a fan of Stalin because he's a man who's thinking about what we're going to say, thinking kind of person. But I think people got a little laugh. Who the hell did Nick Gacy remember him? The people got a little. Who the hell did they think it was? You know? So, this, they had this. Everything was tension in the air, you know.

Corie: 14:55

So I always look back and I say that was the perfect result yeah, you find so yeah, yeah, that is amazing that you would think like that. You know, sometimes you hear people lost and they're vexed. You know when men come second they're pleased. The judges rub them and things. So you never felt that way. You had that reverence for Stalin all through the years. Yes, yeah, because I remember it saying as well that you started off doing backup, singing in the tent and that kind of thing, so you were the backup for Stalin.

Rudder: 15:19

Yeah, we did. The album Caribbean Unity Songs of the Caribbean man and Time, and Black man Gets Up. All the songs of that album. Your vocals, though we did Carl Caron and myself, we did the background vocals, right, right, mostly every kind of Carl Caron at that time. We were the background vocals.

Corie: 15:42

Yeah in studio, in studio, yeah, oh, nice, nice, nice. So you had that respect and reverence for all these fellas. But it's surprising to hear you say that, even though you had that, and the fellas say you're singing ballads, you're inserting them, your focus is the music. Yeah, so, calypso music. It's hard for me to imagine writing that song in the shortest space of time. Space outside, such an intricate song and so much, so much happening in this song.

Rudder: 16:04

Yeah, because it's a history. I love history, you know. So I've always like checked out what Castle was doing in this period, what was going on in the world, and so on, you know. So I had all the information inside my head, it's just, it's just to put it out there, right? And then the magic thing about this thing is the opening line. Up to now, nobody can find an opening line. That opening line can you hear the sound of a drum bouncing on the last of a melody? I don't know where it comes from.

Corie: 16:33

You don't know where it comes from.

Rudder: 16:35

That's when you know.

Corie: 16:36

It good.

Rudder: 16:37

The music finds you. You didn't find the music. The music finds you.

Corie: 16:40

I understand there's a poet on youtube these days. I felt my name is darren sandy. He said it would never be replicated, that opening line oh, you saw that.

Corie: 16:49

You saw it yeah yeah, yeah, and he's professional. He studied the thing, yeah, and he said it could never be replicated, even if I have a little quattro. So what was it? And I forget. You know, I want to play a few with you, you know. But, um, that is one way, even when, when, when you say bouncing on the laughter of a melody, when you're playing the music, it has a certain bounce to it, even in the way the chords bounce around and you think All that is part of the writing process for you, in terms of arranging the song, writing the lyrics and so on. Yeah, so these things, when you write it, jay-z does say he don't write nothing, he go in his studio and he sing. You used to write it all.

Rudder: 17:23

Sometimes, if I have three or four songs put down, I say let me put some directly, I put some, do some. Sometimes it's just a placebo thing. Fuck, until I. That is, that is wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. No placebo, this is the thing itself, you know.

Corie: 17:43

It's our use. So that's that was your approach. Yeah, that's the approach. Well, I had to ask you know if you have some of them papers and them scripts around, because that's how the yellow suit go in.

Rudder: 17:54

Well, I have a lot of that Right now in the process of books. A lot of people from North America Books, a lot of people from North America Trinidad. They want to write, focus on certain songs.

Corie: 18:09

Of course. I'm going to be writing my autobiography.

Rudder: 18:15

Oh, nice congrats. Hopefully by January next year. Beautiful congrats. So a lot of work will be there. I have 50 of my songs in the music book. Well, there's 50 more. So you have the lyrics and you have the quotes.

Corie: 18:34

Oh, beautiful Quote charts. That is nice. That is nice. That is nice Because there are some men who contribute to them, quote charts I want to talk about as well. That's special. So Calypso Music came second. Well, calypso music along with dedication, but it was treated very kindly by history. People say it's the best song he ever had. You agree with that? You consider that your best song, people?

Rudder: 18:54

say so. People say who says the best one too? Yeah, the point is that if you meet 10 people, 8 people out of the 10 will say this is the best song ever, Right? And then you have to say to yourself well, if they say if people say this is the best song, who am I?

Corie: 19:16

No, we want to know what you find is the best song. Who are you? You have to decide.

Rudder: 19:19

It's like picking who's your best child, too hard to pick. I say picking who's your best child Too hard to pick, too hard to pick.

Corie: 19:26

The youth nowadays do a thing they call a monk rushmore, where they call the four best. You have a four best in mind.

Rudder: 19:32

Hmm.

Corie: 19:36

Still too hard to pick, too hard to pick. Your fellas can't look too big, you see, can't look too big and I guess the contribution of it is great. So Cal big and I guess the contribution of it is is great. So calypso music is 80 percent of the people telling you that that's, that's the best one. Now I have a verse in that, as darren sand.

Corie: 19:50

This is the opening of the song. That first verse is magical. I think, the whole first verse, this song itself, along with the arrangement and so on. But there's a, there's a part of this song I believe is the last verse, where you say from the time the first bamboo cut and you drag it down from the St Anne's Hills. You say from the time the first chant well, leave the band. The real jamming starts. And today we jamming still. It's something I've been pause raising as I talk about it because I hear 30 years from 1987. Ultimate Rejects and Maximus Dan come and win road match with a song named Jamming Still. And you emphasize that line when you do it. You say Jamming Still. I say Jamming Still. That last verse was just your ode to the origins of Calypso.

Rudder: 20:34

Yeah.

Corie: 20:35

Because the visual nature you're writing is something else.

Rudder: 20:38

See, calypso is a mother music, so it will always manifest in a different form as the generations go on. It's like an amoeba it sucks in the next new cell and it braces it and splits into two again, but it's still calypso. But it won't be what I do or what Sparrow do, or what Lion and Kitch do or that kind of thing. It'll just be. You hear parts of that kind of thing. It just means you hear parts of that spirit inside of it. Yeah, I think that's what tradition really means to go forward. So you're doing things whatever you've learned before, before. You're not ready to manifest those things that you've learned in your own way. So you carry on the tradition, but it's not the same thing that people expect you to.

Corie: 21:31

This is what.

Rudder: 21:33

John.

Corie: 21:33

Buddy Williams did.

Rudder: 21:35

This is what I do, but you can hear the influence of so-and-so inside it. That's how I see it.

Corie: 21:41

That's a real interesting way to see it. That's a real interesting way to see it For me. If you'd asked me before what is tradition, I would have said backward looking. But I like the way you put it. Tradition is actually it's forward moving.

Rudder: 21:50

I think the Greek word tradé, or something, means to go forward, I suppose. I suppose, so in that tradition, you have like you could have somebody, I'll you have, like you know you could have somebody. You have something. You know his name is Mozart. His name is Mozart, you know.

Corie: 22:14

Let me hear what he has to say of course every society I go to, you find somebody who go somewhere else but still stays in the in the groove, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, I see what you say, that time in your career, kind of defined by that, because you are the one who well, pushing the boundary, you know, like some of the youths doing now as youths would typically do, you making it different but purposefully so right. Going back to that Calypso verse, you say rhythms that could be deadly. Like Headley I think you're referencing George Headley. Yeah, they say he's a man. When he done bat the ball up long. This is the most aggressive batsman West Indies ever seen.

Rudder: 22:57

Yeah, and then the whole idea about Calypso cricket, you know, I suppose. So I say that's trying to get into the mix too. You know, mm-hmm.

Corie: 23:08

Now the thing about that is, when you reference things like that, it's important for you, as you carry forward the tradition, to document some of those things that came before you. It seems to be a theme through a lot of your songs.

Rudder: 23:18

Yeah.

Corie: 23:19

You're teaching.

Rudder: 23:20

Yeah, but it's more than teaching, you know, I think I just love history so much that it comes out and people say, well, you know, we can take that and actually study it as a historical piece, gotcha, you know. So I want to say a special thanks to all the teachers who over the years have been, you know, using my songs, good, using Calypso as a whole, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. The TC children. You know, there's a whole generation who don't even know who David was.

Corie: 23:49

I don't think so, but I'm with you.

Rudder: 23:50

I'm telling you. And then there's another generation, younger than that generation. Everybody knows who David Ruzza is. Yeah, so, and the only reason why I'm still around with producing shows is because there's city-age groups coming to the show Mm and those who call me uncle, those are the ones who I used to go to every school in Trinidad. I see and perform for them and talk to them, talk and things you know. And the teachers always say now, Uncle David is here, If anybody makes any noise, we will call it off and send them home. Yeah, Hands up out. So the whole good day, Uncle David Beautiful. So the whole Uncle David Beautiful. So now these big hardback men, Uncle, Uncle.

Corie: 24:35

That man is my age now. He's Uncle David still.

Rudder: 24:38

I know the different groups by how they call you. I suppose there's some people who do shows like in Normandy. I think they bring their whole family. Yeah, yeah, yeah, All the little children Two year old, with nobody, I think With the whole family. Yeah, yeah, yeah, All the little children two-year-olds three-year-olds, everybody. So it's like having a next set of people who kind of check in about you, check out what you do.

Corie: 24:58

And in this digital era, where it's a little easier now you don't have to run by the record stores to buy records you could hear a lot of it online if you're interested in it. So, yeah, that idea of document. Happy to hear you say that. Um, I wish personally one of my wishes, and why I do this is because I feel like these pieces that you would have written, along with many other people, in your time and now that should be what we teach us english literature.

Corie: 25:20

I don't know what you're supposed to call it, if it's caribbean literature or english literature, I don't care what you call it but I find it um disheartening sometimes that a little child will not. They would teach me Macbeth and I couldn't understand those things. You know, when it looks like I get to live with them, I couldn't understand it, but I know. When my mother had that cassette in the 80s, I understand, and you're right in terms of the tradition where the way I understood those songs back then I understand and hold on to different parts of it. No, because I'm a little fellow. I only want to hear you say the part where you turn a woman's body into jelly. That's the only part I want to hear. But no, I'm married and I can't listen to it. But you went on in that to say the lyrics and the melodies were sending this whole to the boundary. So, even though you're saying that you're very, very close to the history, you were always up to date with current affairs. Is this something you pay a lot of attention to Now also?

Rudder: 26:12

Always, every day, every day, the whole the horror in the Middle East, russia, ukraine, haiti. You know a lot of these things. As I mentioned Haiti, people must be shocked to know that back in the 87, sorry when I released Haiti. People must be shocked to know that back in 87 in the year sorry when I released Haiti, the song was so big that when we go, when we play in Fats, we say wait till 2 o'clock in the morning and we say, alright, let me crowd, alright, we want to touch all the other more. You won't believe Haiti used to touch a little more. You will believe Hetty used to be the big song In Fetz. In Fetz and you see the whole in those days. Now you would see mostly heads. People had their heads like this. People just feel the music. This is the hand period now. The old Fetz used to be head.

Corie: 27:05

Yeah, you see the head moving.

Rudder: 27:06

And it was hand. So you see the whole crowd, just people just floating like I'm sorry, you know. Sometimes they say, but what happened? We're not playing the tune you know we want it we want it. And that album had Panama Bacana Lady. You know you want it, you want it. And that album had Panama Bacchanal Lady, you know.

Corie: 27:32

Madman Rant no, not Madman Rant. Um, going mad Madness. Madness was before. Madness was before. Yeah, okay, that would be. The Gilded Collection is what collected. Put all them together.

Rudder: 27:42

Yeah, madness was um the same year when, when Madness was the same year when talent started. Oh I see, yeah, I was going to do madness and calico music. Oh I see, really, but an old judge passed it. You know, madness, have a whole brass lego part.

Corie: 28:03

Right, I know those points might cost you, so maybe you should go and do dedication. You regret it.

Rudder: 28:13

Well, I regret it in the sense that I lost my voice because I was going to schools and visiting so and then they postponed the show to the last on the program. So I'm in Savannah since 7 o'clock and it's going on 11 o'clock now. I'm going on stage and I still have Gary Dawson producing production and everything. And he says, sit down in the car and leave the air conditioner on. And when I come outside I couldn't talk. His bad mind made me say yeah, that night in Toronto.

Corie: 28:53

Really.

Rudder: 28:54

Yeah, I couldn't talk.

Corie: 28:57

For both songs this is Both songs.

Rudder: 28:59

Yeah, but I'm supposed to ease up a bit. Yeah, because I get the dedication out, but I couldn't say this is a notion of dedication, because you know, interested, interested, madness on it, and it was actually one that was going with.

Corie: 29:14

Does the next one take a short time to write too?

Rudder: 29:16

Yeah, yeah, because times it's really I just I dread something else it's. It's about this society breaking up.

Corie: 29:26

Yeah, it's about this society breaking up. Yeah, the real social community Right.

Rudder: 29:28

Mm-hmm. Everybody mad, but there's nobody. You know, people mad, but they don't know they're mad, yeah, and that'll make it look not normal, you know, but you know it's like. So I was just talking about all the, you know, talking about the gas station, gene Right, gene Miles, of course, who tried to do anti-corruption campaign. She paid the price for that, Mm-hmm, you know. But the union man, the French business man, the girl from Holy Name, all these degrees and passes she got me. The dude worker yeah, I see, pep. Yeah, of course you know, with a dude worker. Yeah, I see, pep. Yeah, of course you know. So it's like everything that's gone totally crazy.

Corie: 30:10

Everything I've tried, though.

Rudder: 30:11

Yeah, but.

Corie: 30:12

I luckily I'm sane, but you're insane. You stormed the fed. You say you jumped the water, so you're sane. You come in and see mad people.

Rudder: 30:21

All right, we're going to hear.

Corie: 30:24

Yeah, it's hard for me to imagine writing that song in a short piece of time. It's a part where you say you have an old French Creole man, I think. No, not Brown, the one named Pierre. Oh, that's somebody. That's. You're talking about real people in these songs. When you're thinking of names, it's people.

Rudder: 30:43

Yeah, french Coup was the man who constantly in those days would come on and heighten his society. You know, right, all the big businesses and so on. So he now his business gone through because he's just falling apart. You know so, he and he and who? He drinking pepper sauce and things. So you know so he likes to hug up the union man now, yeah, usually his rival, you know, who wants more money for the workers. You know so he hugged the union man.

Corie: 31:13

You know you have to hug the union man and hug up second to second.

Rudder: 31:15

And everybody just thinks this is not a festival, this is madness. And they're saying that, you know, but they realize they're really mad.

Corie: 31:24

Of course, yeah, now you're making me realize.

Rudder: 31:26

And then you know, I remember Wayne Brown saying I wish that song was another year because I really think NRL has come into power. He said everything that didn't get a raw deal right Because our society wasn't the same. Oil went up to 12,000 barrels and all kinds of things like that. It kind of adds to the whole scene. So when things go crazy and Abu Bakr and everything you know, people go back and say madness. This is the end product of the madness song.

Corie: 32:07

You know it might be one of them songs. Go back and say, madness, this is the end product of the Madness song. You know it might be one of them songs you could probably sing and he'd give me an intro and that you could sing that now. You could sing that now and change up some names, it'd be the same thing most of the songs Madman Rant.

Rudder: 32:21

All the people say that's an old song. You're getting young in that video that song was 40 years old.

Corie: 32:29

I thought that was releasing in the 90s. No, that wasn't after. That was that, was that, was that was what? 30, something, 30 years ago? Yeah, probably 30. Probably 30, yeah, but around that time, yeah. So you struggled through. I mean. So, Abicalib, so, as you say, it landed landed real, real, favorably, in your catalog, and there's a verse in there as well. I wanted to ask you about because I suppose I understand even before I ask you where some of the names you're calling this song Sparrow, beginner, Executor, kitchener you had a lot of names Spoiler. Might it be some of the same people who were going to be saying, or their cohort saying, that it's ballads, it's deliberate, you just wanted to pay homage to them.

Rudder: 33:06

Peacock is nothing to me.

Corie: 33:08

Yeah, michelin Pekong is nothing to me.

Rudder: 33:09

Yeah, no, I'll give you a joke. When they are saying Bayer Guild people, they are talking this song and think like that, like that, you know, gypsy, of course, sing this thing. So a man tell me, say I don't, say I don't. Say you see that song Bayer Guild, they should take the brother and put him. A man told me I don't, say I don't, say I don't say, he said that's how you buy a girl.

Rudder: 33:31

They should take your brother and put him on one side of the of the small island and all he's singing. All he's singing is bim bim, bim, bim, bim, bim, bim, bim, bim, bim, bim bim bim. And he said, and I'll get waters, but she was like la la la la la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la la la la la la la la la la la la la, la, la la, la, la, la, la la la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la la.

Corie: 34:04

But you ain't got no horrors. You laughing them thing, that's funny. Men taking them thing personally. Now, you know Men ain't like that. You can't say that monoman song now, so that homage, you could hear it. Even the way you arrange the verses and the way you call the names, I always love the part where you say spoilers I want to fall. You know you make them connections with people. It's almost like you're giving us some history in a sense. But we had to do some research to figure out some of the things you know. You had to do some deeper reading or thinking.

Rudder: 34:36

Yeah, I just got a book from Kevin Brown. He's just part of the book on kinds of song itself yeah, I must check it out.

Corie: 34:45

So powerful, powerful song now Dedication was the other song that year. Yeah, and after you call all them names in Calypso when you went to Pan man Dedication you say not one name, will I call right again. Quick song. You write in terms of Dedication or that is one that you. That's a quick one we didn't find one, one that you take long to write yet, but we go ahead.

Rudder: 35:06

At the end of the day, I kind of went against that same line of not calling a name because but I did call a name. I said in the end we shall spree, we shall shine like silver stars, you know, as we get to phase two. And so I incorporated all the bands of course they hide it.

Corie: 35:27

So what turned out? So it's incorporated into all the bands. Of course they hide it. So what turned out to be a second place might be one of the biggest, one of my favorite songs by Utah. I'll tell you which was my favorite before we're done. I have it down as the best piece of writing I ever hear, Going back to 86, so Bahia Gale was what it was. Any truth to the story girl you're meeting through. You talk to and get the inspiration for yourself.

Rudder: 35:46

It was. There was a girl, a Brazilian girl by the Bootsmans right, and I said she's fiery, but the thing about it is crazy didn't have a producer at the end. So Ellis Chaldinon was the challenge to his manager. I said why don't you write a song for juice? Manager say, why don't you write songs for you? Yeah, boy David, yeah boy David. You know you'll be crazy, even if he didn't want to he would say yeah, boy, david, you're the best so. I wrote three songs for him Madness, jump Up Really and Bahia Girl.

Corie: 36:28

I only know about Bahia girl. It's the first time I hear madness and jump up because it was different.

Rudder: 36:34

In when I say it's such a madness, it was different because I was too crazy. Okay, he was crazy mad, so so it will be a kind of you know.

Corie: 36:47

I'll wait to hear anyway.

Rudder: 36:49

So then he had jump up, jump up. I had a kick, you know, oh, it's here, anyway. So then he had I had jump jump, jump up, jump up, shake your body, jump up. Please don't make me beg, make me. I'm talk every time I walk before I take off my shoes and chuck you under your foot, you know.

Rudder: 37:04

I, I'm thinking like crazy you know I'm thinking like crazy this is how crazy you say it. And then Bahia girl he had a. He had just done a chunk of muchacha for Christmas. So I said that was the year before. So I said, well, this time you'll meet a Brazilian girl, because that girl was from Venezuela. So he met a Brazilian girl Because the original lyric was this girl from Bahia staying in Moruga. This lady, real lucky, she bumps up the crazy right.

Corie: 37:36

so when I put Sweet Me as a keep in the song as a keep in the song, but she bumps up the crazy.

Rudder: 37:42

But that man with that family, that really didn't waste no time. You can feel crazy, you know, I studied him so, but everything had to happen, how it happens, you know. And he didn't waste no time. You can feel crazy, you know, I studied him so, but everything had to happen, how it happens, you know.

Corie: 37:53

He's talking about that now. He's not telling you how much he regrets, or something. Only cool, yeah. Yeah, I hope to get him here one day and ask him about that. There's something else. So he just didn't feel like he was fit.

Rudder: 38:06

No, he didn't say anything, but he's joking. He rejected songs, but he had a song that he called Soka Tazan. Mm-hmm, I remember yeah, awuwa, which is a song we had with Joel Jungle Fever. Okay, okay. So I said, look, you need Jungle Fever to write a second Jungle Fever, part 2. And the result was Banya Gill Jump and you're pissed off with Bahia.

Corie: 38:26

Gayle jump up and madness yeah, boy, so all them songs. You write that same time you give any of them songs yeah.

Corie: 38:30

Jesus, wow, that is something else. Who would have thought? I heard this story about Bahia Gayle and realized it was true at the time. That's something else, so that Bahia Gayle I mean that again treated well in history, regardless of what was, is up, appreciate that you pushed the boundary and you went ahead with it. Your next song that year is man With the Hammer. It was a dedication to Rudolf Charles. So, rudolf Charles, you all were friends. That was a part dancing, you know.

Rudder: 38:56

You must know Rudolf from a distance. Rudolf was like a prime minister, you know.

Corie: 39:07

And Eric Williams I'm going up there, Rudolf and him, you know and Eric Williams and him going up there and Rudolph and him you know, Thunderbolt Williams and Tom Cuddin and all them guys in the hill.

Rudder: 39:15

You know so that Rudolph was. He didn't make no nonsense, guys. You know, and you say sometimes people are stupid, mad, yeah and that line actually had stirred up some a bit of anger or something in the community, because apparently he did hit somebody with a hammer. You know, I would say in his mind you have to be a stupid man to cross me, you know.

Corie: 40:01

In that song you say trail, you say the man with the hammer, in the end you say Charlo. You never really said Rudolph Charles in the whole song. Deliberate too, that was his nickname. So you went through the song with the nickname. But when they say the dragon to walk the trail, the dragon was his nickname too. The dragon was his nickname.

Rudder: 40:17

Yeah, Because they said partially the names, most of them nothing that straight out of the thing. It's a Caribbean thing too, because if you listen to other singers you can know the same movies.

Corie: 40:29

Jody.

Rudder: 40:30

Wales, and you know Louis Lepke right. So all the whatever, but the same theatre. The same way too, when Desperados' name was the Dead End Kids.

Corie: 40:41

The Dead End Kids. The Dead End Kids. Okay, I never heard of the school Gay Desperados, because you know, if you saw Walk, okay, I never heard of it?

Rudder: 40:48

I've never heard of gay desperado, because the way Rudolph used to walk they used to say there's a movie called Walk Like a Dragon, so they used to call him Dragon. And then there's another movie, cointrelle, the western with Cointrelle, so they used to call him Trail. I see and I keep saying Rudolph Charles, but not in the same way of course, of course, of course. You know, yeah, hammer dragon, yeah because they call him hammer, too right, of course no, that um again, many, many uh ways you could see.

Corie: 41:26

Uh, in the songs that you write you pay homage. The same thing we say about headley and you pay homage a lot. In the songs that you write you pay homage, it's the same thing we say about Headley. You know you pay homage a lot in your songs, but there's a visual nature that you're writing down to ask about where in that song you describe the funeral in a silver chariot riding to the sun, you know, leaving fire in its wake, spirits on the run. That's just come naturally to you to write, like because you cannot help listening. When you listen to music, you have to see everybody must be seeing something different in their mind, but your mind can't be blank when you're listening to you well, the first thing people used to say you write poetry.

Corie: 41:59

So I said bye, I don't know nothing about that, that's all I naturally have right but you feel it, you hear it in your music all the time, yeah, so that they say that, of course, being who he was, from Lavantilla zone, the funeral. The funeral was a scene, the funeral was a spectacle. Yeah, and you're there, so you're kind of always right, isn't it? Yeah?

Rudder: 42:24

and the thing about it. I bought a picture to bring him down the hill, but it was about 20,000 people Canada you know this man, fidelio. So I said but you know who will? There were a lot of people that kind of. I think maybe the Pope now.

Corie: 42:52

Yeah, I suppose I was now thinking that in modern days you mightn't get people for anybody. So you're going into 86, you know you're going into and 86, I should ask you, is this the first time you entered in the competition at all?

Rudder: 43:04

No, I entered the year before 85. Oh, you were there. I went to the semis. They have a thing called the unattached. Oh, okay okay, and I had jump up and calabash. Oh, that is it.

Corie: 43:22

And you went unattached.

Rudder: 43:23

I went unattached. The judges say the only thing we can put it through is because, calabash, there's an old cartoon. Every single you should have custom to drink in a calabash.

Corie: 43:39

That's the way they say it.

Rudder: 43:40

as an example, so they run around and they get the calabash. So they say you're almost there. So I kind of now know what happened.

Corie: 43:53

I see, I see, and it was. What did they say originally? Not for.

Rudder: 43:56

Well, in case of Max, oh, you couldn't have talked to him. No, the opposite of that now is because they argue that Bayer Gild is such un-Kalebsu-Kalebsu. There's a hundred points I see. I see, when they started to bad talk the song, they're giving him more points. They realized that everything we say is what they're going to mark as points, so they're giving him a hundred percent on every point, right? So, and it was, I think it was 18 points. And now there's somebody by two and a half points.

Corie: 44:32

Okay, okay, oh, it was that big of a victory.

Rudder: 44:34

I see, I see so because the bad talk, the thing was not realizing what they were just looking for.

Corie: 44:43

They helping you.

Rudder: 44:44

They helping me, you know.

Corie: 44:48

So you and them two perform until you know you have them. Basically yeah.

Rudder: 44:53

That's my feeling. I say one thing needs another. If they say the same, it's not so.

Corie: 44:59

I'm surprised to hear that, because I was looking and I wasn't seeing any name in the finals before. So it really was just, and was it just 85, 86, 87? It? So it really was just, and was it just 85, 86, 87? It was done after so deliberate decision. You just come out of competition, or you just went to prove that, or how come you just stopped going.

Rudder: 45:14

I wanted to. I've been playing all over the place for about 20 years, you know, and I don't think it's at the next level now. So I think the thing that I don't think it's the next level now, so I think the thing that will take me to the next level, is Calypso.

Corie: 45:31

Monarch Right.

Rudder: 45:33

You know they're paying $2,500,000.

Corie: 45:37

Yeah the next level Right.

Rudder: 45:41

Now the same people. One gets a million dollars.

Corie: 45:43

Yeah, a million dollars on ticket, you should go.

Rudder: 45:47

I think, if I won the road match, I came second or something. Yeah, you should go. I say, if I won the roadmatch, I came second in the roadmatch too. Eh.

Corie: 45:53

Yeah, first and second. It was Young Kings, Calypso, Monarch first and second in the roadmatch and All-Stars play and win Panorama.

Rudder: 45:59

Yeah, I would be working a couple million. Yeah, boy you might have done something. It's a good thing. The thing about it is, sparrow, when the Kramani roadmatch was that years before, I think, they said you get 250 US Serious.

Corie: 46:15

I think they said it was early 80s it started to change. I remember somebody saying not me and the monarchy. Let me just explain now Not me and the monarchy as a protest to how small the money was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting, interesting, interesting. So at that point in time in your career you're out of the competition, but it seemed as though you started to pivot, to do more outside of Carnival, not just do songs for Carnival. Have you ever thought of your songs as just for Carnival?

Rudder: 46:39

No, I thought Carnival was the launching pad for the new releases, but I didn't see the songs as. But I didn't see the songs as well as when they know they have to go back to playing X or Y music, as the case may be. Right permission to mash up the place On the Haiti album, it was Haiti Panama Terminal, in the Front Line, bacchanal Lady and Rally Round the.

Rudder: 47:17

West Indies and Engine Room. So all those songs, one song, one album, you know, and it happens in such a strange way because Haiti. You know, haiti came about because I was watching the fact that Papa Doc was here and the son, the single last one I think they're going to kick Baby Doc out. I was thinking to myself. So, in the history of this, and so said, so done, the radio stations had to play Haiti because the world focused on Haiti.

Corie: 47:56

Current affairs. Current affairs.

Rudder: 47:58

So people all of the Caribbean were like we want Haiti. We want Haiti, you know. And then, when it got close to Carnival, bacchanal ladies started to come too, and Panama all the steel bands went to Panama. There you are. They call it Panama Rama. Yeah, right, so one album, all these songs just coming out, one after the other, right, you know? And then after Carnival, cable and Wireless West. Indies versus England. That series Mm-hmm.

Corie: 48:32

Rally. Yeah, I went rally, died away Then.

Rudder: 48:36

Engine Room. Phil Simmons started to play Engine Room Later on in the year. So that was one of the albums that was like a whole magical. It was a magical moment, you know.

Corie: 48:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah, welcome back. Engine Room, to me, is the best writer in any song I've ever heard. If I ask my wife, my favorite, david, would be Engine Room. I like to pretend when you say, corey, it's me you're talking about, right? So you say tradition, I can interpret it my own way, right? So I know it's Corey Fraser, but I'm going to say it's me for this interview, right, but masterful piece of writing. Just Just to get back to that panorama with All Stars All Stars would have been the one that played the song. How you felt about that at the time, being that the song was about a despot's man and about despots on La Venta. You think anything you felt about that?

Rudder: 49:23

No, I think I always felt it would interfere with Desperado's melancholy feel they had, because All Stars decided to challenge Desperado's own tune, right, right, that melancholy feel they had, you know, because All Stars decided to challenge the Desperados with their own tune, right, we will play up, we will take all their own tune and beat them. So I think there's a tone that gets from Desperados that you don't get from other bands. It's changing now, but it's a melancholy, according to the owners, brothers, players, we don't beat Pan we play Pan.

Corie: 50:03

Yeah, that was sweetness but it's an extra effort on on Robbie and the boys up there, yeah, to get it done to get it done.

Rudder: 50:14

You want to get it so perfect.

Corie: 50:16

Of course, yeah.

Rudder: 50:17

And smooth. You know all starts, all starts with the. The people saw the fresh band, yeah, yeah, yeah, come go crazy on the stage fighting the night, mm-hmm and beat everybody. And then they say beat everybody, mm-hmm. And then they say beat everybody. So I say well, where's Ossaz been after?

Corie: 50:35

but when they play that night, yeah, they have a few nights like that, just a little smooth. They have some classic moments in panorama.

Corie: 50:42

Yeah, put something there yeah, go on with them. So, yeah, proud, proud season for you. Actually, I was going to ask you about Haiti just because, even in your writing, the way you approached social commentary and, uh, political commentary and stuff it, it it felt as if you used to do not even double entendre, like a lot of people do double entendre and stuff, but used to almost put the message across in a way where number one people could dance. So when, when you say Haiti, I'm sorry, I never knew that was something you're performing in FETS. But that's something I want to ask you about because a lot of the things you have like look at Hulsey X, strong political commentary telling you exactly what's going on. It was as live as it gets as an issue, but that go down with the Hulsey and people might remember the story about Hulsey's protests and so on. But you deliberately doing political commentary in a style where people could fetu. That is from your band roots or where that came from.

Rudder: 51:35

I think it's from the band roots.

Corie: 51:36

Mm-hmm.

Rudder: 51:38

And you know Brecky always say um, you know they always say Brecky is the artist with the most personality in the in the in history. You can think about somebody who, on stage, has the personality like Blakey, and Blakey says it doesn't matter if I'm dying or a man chopped me just now. When you say I come on stage, people have to laugh at me because I come to make them laugh.

Rudder: 52:09

I come to make them feel good, I come to make them. You know, and you feel it. When you step on stage, when Blakey gets on stage, you know when, when you show how they hold the pussy, it's something else to see.

Corie: 52:21

you know and you laugh so some of that is what you're doing. When you go, you try to make the song how it's here. How it's here because whole CX was one, madman Rant was another one. You trying to make this song a witty. A witty because Hul CX was one, madman Rant was another one, panama for sure. Serious, serious story. The names you're calling the song and so on. One of the only songs I ever hear. Man, you outright write a song and tell me hey, I'm going to finish this movie and hang it in the next book. Hold on that little self-reflection. I see it in many, many songs. I have plenty of songs where it's a part where you're just talking to yourself yeah, that deliberate too. And I'll ask you again Panama, that ride fast too, that fast. Well, you ride slow. Yeah, if anything slow, we can do it again. It's a non-nice thing.

Rudder: 53:05

The thing about it is, if the song struggles it'll be alright song. I see you know. But if you kind of know, and sometimes, when you're writing it, writing it down, you say, oh right, I didn't even think about this and. I put something in there that you know made the magic right, right.

Corie: 53:29

You know I hear a lot of writers say that too. They say it's just come out. The classics, the classics will just come out. The classics, the classics will just come out. So let me go to the selfish part now and ask you about my song now, engine Room. Complicated set of writing. Every verse have a different theme in it, as descriptive as it gets, yeah, fast yeah yeah yeah alright, well, let me go through it now.

Corie: 53:50

I want to do a whole walk through this song. Right, your first verse. It was called Head. It's On Us Rolling, yeah, yeah.

Rudder: 53:56

On the floor, get up and grumble. The whole crowd in the uproar. All of a sudden, everything just up and chilled, everything just going to a standstill. The crowd started to curse what's wrong with the band? It was the man with the iron gun and fallen. The rack with iron going and falling, the vibration busts with the welding and when the iron falls it's a humble demand and everything's at a crawl and everything's at a fall. And the truth was plain to see. The engine room is the heart of it.

Corie: 54:21

Yeah, the truth was plain to see. Yeah, yeah, when you, if the rhythm section go down, the pan is not what it was before. You know what I mean, even reason. So that verse, just come to you, that's quick. You get in there, you say you're out of the angle and fall because the vibration busts with you. Well, they're complicated line. When you try to sing over that song, you bite up your tongue. You know the second verse, a special verse to me as well, because, uh, I had duvon stuart here, right, uh, renegades a ranger I heard christine kangaloo talk about, to the head of, uh, pantron bagel talking about it as well, where the pan and the panyard going to be the savior and the panyard as community center model, right, and I feel like your second verse in Engine Room captured that, because pan was a thing where even Blakey, as you're saying, invaders beating sweet, coming up Park Street, tokyo coming down, beating very slow Talk about that Like the most tension how should I say it?

Rudder: 55:22

The most intense and ominous person in history of music.

Corie: 55:28

Yeah.

Rudder: 55:29

Simply in business, beating sweet that whole Western Paul of Spain. Naivety kind of thing Coming from western part of Spain, naivete kind of thing coming from east part of Spain. There's one from east part of Spain, invaders, beating sweet. Coming up, park Street. Tokyo coming down, beating very smooth. If you want to handle violence, it creates plenty of tension. There's. It creates plenty of tension.

Corie: 55:54

There's no song I hear like a, like a captain, you know and it's only two band clash yeah, which I guess would be a common thing. Then yeah, steel band clash is a real, real song. Yeah.

Rudder: 56:09

I've been trying to kind of like Gypsy and them to say about Bigwin kind corner being a site, a historical site, you know, but that's where the carnival started, you know, and that clash the steel one clash. From then on they had to go the police headquarters right in the green corner there. It's not by chance, because the police were right in the corner, because so they were saying alright if anything jump over, you can come here and turn back around here and go back up the road.

Rudder: 56:40

Wow, you know. Oh, I see you know. So I was Pedro should be the green corner yeah you know that should be, that should be like a tourism brochure. You know, a small theater or something and people can come to China and go.

Corie: 57:00

Yeah, see Green Corner.

Rudder: 57:02

See Green Corner. You know, stick fighting Calypso competition, everything was there. Yeah, now the people don't know about Savannah.

Corie: 57:10

But Green Corner was the. It was the epicenter. Yeah, I see, I see, I see, yeah, like it's like when the US Does this thing with I forget what they call the body of parks and this and that, and make them Historical sites, yeah, we should do that. I mean Green Corner Immortalizing plenty music. I understand why no Green Corner should be.

Rudder: 57:27

Actually, to me, just like Similar to the Hollywood Walk of Fame All fame, all the artists fight Everybody. Get a star, get a pan or something. We don't go star. I think we should like most historical areas. The signposts are brown, brown and white.

Corie: 57:48

This is a historical area of Spain. Immortalize everybody there. I like the idea we can fight the fight. I like the idea we go fight the fight. I like the idea make it something people want to come and see. Yeah.

Rudder: 57:58

I wrote something about it between Green Corner it's good Chinese Lottery, green Corner with them, but that's what that was. The the message was people come, people circle, circle the corner bow and head back down in the west. You know, make that pass every cannibal circle the corner bow and head back down in the west, make that pass Every cannibal and turn the corner and head back up the road in the next direction.

Corie: 58:25

Yeah, let me hope it comes to pass. It's a beautiful idea, let me hope it comes to pass. But, as Blakey, when I captured it with the attention you did that in that verse you say check your grandmother. Yeah, talk to the neighbor next door If the thing didn't change up.

Rudder: 58:41

Oh no, it would still be in big war. It's the same woman who put out their mother because she was in love with this pan-pan. She used to open the door to pray on my head. Now she boasts to the neighbor next oh my God, what a beast for a steel box If it wasn't for you.

Corie: 58:54

Gil, that would be so dreadful.

Rudder: 58:56

When I see I'm in pain, I just start to think again and take it out of the steam.

Corie: 59:03

Again, the writing itself is not the longest verse ever, but it tells you a whole story about the transition from Pan, where you used to be clash and badness, to Pan, where people brought no, it's All these mummies and jannies united by silver stars and all these bands. Waiting to pick up turn.

Rudder: 59:21

Pick up turn, so it comes wrong, you know.

Corie: 59:26

But it's beautiful and I mean think of the year you write that song and where we are now. It's almost prophetic in some ways that you're seeing what the pan had and the president talking about. You talk now. It's almost prophetic in some ways that you're seeing what the panyard and the president talking about. You're talking about billing police headquarters to protect pan mind from one another. And now to the president of the country talking about how important the panyard is. Your third verse, again talking to yourself, and a kind of reflection you're doing inside. Again I know which verse is my favorite. Every day I get up with put out different favorite verse. But you see tongue in the engine. You know what I mean. Iron in my head. You see the scratcher man scratching.

Rudder: 59:59

I have the drum. It seems to be well dread the Congo man.

Corie: 1:00:02

I close, I close.

Rudder: 1:00:03

I close. I close. I feel sorry for the drum skin sorry for the drum skin me and all them back up.

Corie: 1:00:07

Iron up my ears so that's what I want to ask you about, line there. You see, don't get your engine ironed in my head. But now you're telling me you had your own iron in your head, you had your iron up by your ears.

Rudder: 1:00:16

Yeah, I put myself inside of the scene.

Corie: 1:00:19

I love it, I love it, I love it. So don't get easy, easy, easy your iron up by your ears. Two, three call bell man. A bell in the hand and a tassel man pumping.

Rudder: 1:00:35

One more you you going to want? Yeah, the thing about this. I got a call from somebody in Australia and they say my father wanted to just say thanks for calling his name. That was Liba. Oh. I see that's his last verse he ended up in in Australia, so they say he just passed away oh, I see, you're just in peace.

Corie: 1:00:54

Right, iron man, right yeah.

Rudder: 1:00:57

He was a. He was born on, oh, with Tripoli. Tripoli, I see he was a. Oh, fantastic, nice to know you boys.

Corie: 1:01:06

Nice to know you, bro. So it's another thing where Tripoli went to play with Liberace.

Rudder: 1:01:12

Liberace had him under contract for years. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, I see, so he. But he moved. After the band, this band, he moved to Australia. Okay, but the thing I remember about the engineering more than anything else is the short raster from New Tones. Yeah, during the carnival season, the short raster put a, a, a, a, a publication in the newspapers to inform his fans.

Rudder: 1:01:44

I love it. I no longer play for this is. This is short raster, I no longer playing for, so and so band again I will not be. I will not be associated with this band.

Corie: 1:01:56

See, this is before the song or this is after After the song. So he makes sure he's not associated with it If he doesn't have any papers.

Rudder: 1:02:04

He's no longer with New Tones.

Corie: 1:02:07

Yeah, I like that Because he got immortalized. So he started getting to be the raster from Newtons, regardless the short raster from Newtons. I love it. And he went through many, many names and things. I have a list of names here, right, I wanted to hear just your thoughts on the person, your relationship, your thoughts, any stories you might have. The first name I have here is Pelham Goddard. What's on Pelham, your relationship?

Rudder: 1:02:33

Well, when I was invited to join Chinese Tally's Youth, the band was this a band that played soccer music. The band was formed to play this new music, soccer right, and it was Rodston Charles. The record man from New York said this band should be out on the road. Man, I will buy them equipment. So he buys speakers and mixers and all that kind of thing and they come out on the road. The band comes on the road. The name of the band was Sensational Roots.

Corie: 1:03:07

Great.

Rudder: 1:03:08

And then in appreciation for Charlie sponsoring the band. I see, they, they, they, they. You call it the band Charlie's Youth.

Corie: 1:03:18

Mm.

Rudder: 1:03:19

Right. So Pelham was seasoned when you when the formation of what people call Soka Music. Today, mm Pelham and Vernon and all these guys, you know these Toby, junior Warwood, you know Tony, all these guys when they started the soccer. You know this new song, you know. So Palermo had a greater horn on the arrangement, you know. So when I went to the ballroom I said why don't we write some songs?

Corie: 1:03:58

So then these are plain songs. You just cover. We cover the ballon, we cover songs.

Rudder: 1:04:02

So and so said, so done. We started with Kalaloo, kalaloo, all of it is Kalaloo.

Corie: 1:04:15

And Pelham would have done a lot of your arrangements in the being Pelham in that time of years.

Rudder: 1:04:19

It's true, we worked together. Okay At that point in time.

Corie: 1:04:25

Yeah, it had to be a special connection because your writing, and like your writing, is colored by the way they phrase the music and everything that happens with the song. You know it makes some of them sound so perfect, like Calypso and them, Even some of the phrases you do, like Panama, you say I, I. So you and Pelham just working through them things in terms of how you want the final product.

Rudder: 1:04:45

Yeah, I basically I don't read music. I want to have this, this, this, this, this here.

Corie: 1:04:53

Mm-hmm, you know Right, and so we work it out until we get a nice medium. Gotcha, gotcha. So let me stick with Charlie's roots. Christopher Tambu Herbert. What was it like? You joined him in the band at the time, or?

Rudder: 1:05:08

No, Actually he was the lead singer of the band Mm-hmm and they'd gone to Guyana to do some shows and when they came back he lost his voice.

Corie: 1:05:17

I see.

Rudder: 1:05:18

And they asked me if I would mind filling in his space.

Corie: 1:05:23

Right.

Rudder: 1:05:24

But the funny thing about it was that Carl and Carol used to sing with Charlie's Roots at that time, because not everybody who passed through the music now in those times passed through Charlie's Roots.

Corie: 1:05:34

Oh, so Carl and Carol were there yeah, I see.

Rudder: 1:05:36

Robin Eman, michelle, roger George, lots of, lots of them youngsters, mmhmm.

Corie: 1:05:44

Fatman Nappy, charlie's Roots yeah, everybody passed through Charlie's Roots. You had Fatman Nappy a long, long time. I didn't know that. Yeah, so y'all had a good relationship. I know Tambu would have shifted and so on, but from 85 to all the way to 90, between you and him all he dominated. That year Tambu would have went out a few road match back to back. I'm thinking that time. But you all had a good relationship. You all feel as good. Yeah, okay, nice. I didn't see or hear from him in a long time actually the United.

Rudder: 1:06:12

we did a tribute with Lord Charles, the Desperado Spaniard. Oh nice, he was there too.

Corie: 1:06:18

Oh, good, good, good, good, good. He's somebody I would love to have on to as somebody who was in that space in the 80s. There are a lot of people who were born late 70s, early 80s. They really grew up and started to like music, with Charlie's Roots music in a major way. Peter Minchell, what was that relationship like with you and Peter Minchell? Because there was an era where Minchell's band was what Mass was, and your music, all your music. But some particular songs went along with some productions that he would have done.

Rudder: 1:06:49

Yeah, that happened in the same way with Tungu Fever. That was the first year I joined the band and, um, people used to say, when the history, the history of Cannavale was, you had a a little a band on the road Cannavale and you have a singer, lead singer, some of the singers, what they do in Brazil, you know. But, um, so they were, they were, they were called. They were called chantwells. They would kind of lead the band. You know when a dead berry makes, oh my mother, when a dead berry makes, you know. So the chantwell now is making music for the particular band, right, so we started to do songs like Calabash and Jungle Fever, those songs based on what Peter Mitchell was playing. You know everything and look at his costume and say, alright, so this is how it started you know, so it was Kalabash, it's River yeah, it's a few years, it was a stretch.

Corie: 1:07:55

So you all used to work together, like he telling his concepts for the band and you telling him, you coming up with the song. You know what, what you?

Rudder: 1:08:02

no, I kind of. I kind of, sometimes I just look at the costumes. Sometimes I hear what you say, but but, um, it's mostly, we just decided to do some music. I see, really, and it fit of course it fit.

Corie: 1:08:16

Yeah, it looked like you've only come up with it together. When you look back in history, people think that you all work on it at the same time. Interesting another name I have here Andy Norell. I saw Andy Norell on the show that you said was going to be your last long marathon show in Song Forge. I see Andy Norell is still there with you. Come out and play some pan.

Rudder: 1:08:33

Yeah, yeah, we're actually working on a Stalin album right now.

Corie: 1:08:39

Oh, a Stalin album. That's right, musical, or what Are you doing? Covers oh covers.

Rudder: 1:08:43

Oh, really, yeah, that's nice. The Drudge arrangement. Oh, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. We did a about two weeks after Carnival. The same song for us, right that?

Corie: 1:08:57

was the kickstart of the whole project. Oh nice, Good, good, good. So where you all met and things you just met along the way and become friends.

Rudder: 1:09:02

That was Carnival the same year with the Hammer.

Corie: 1:09:04

Okay.

Rudder: 1:09:05

That was the ground thing.

Corie: 1:09:06

Mm-hmm.

Rudder: 1:09:07

Because he had come down to train that Mm-hmm, his brother, always come right right and he. He asked me if he'd like to do the hammer on his next album. So I said, well, fine, I'll go with it, you know. So he asked me whether I wanted to sing it too right? So I said, no problem, and that's that's.

Corie: 1:09:31

That's from there we stay connected over the years. My next name is Carl Jacobs. I see you all. Well, I did not realize that Carl and Carol were on Charlie's. I thought they were chandelier or something After After I see so all those band rivals. Now, all these good, good friends. I see all these partners. How did that connection start with you and Carl?

Rudder: 1:09:51

We used to go to this thing called Pop Gear. It used to have a discargeted hotel in Quebec Right.

Rudder: 1:09:57

Right near Exeter, spania, there, oh, eight, nine story building, I think Jack Warner owned it, okay, okay, oh yeah, I know it Right. They had the garage, the parking lot, they blocked it off, mm-hmm. And then we had this pop gear. So all the bands were singing the best pop songs, I think. So we used to be rivals, so he's a part of what's meaning, you know, even teenage boys used to sing in the songs. So one day we ended up the same plan ends in Belmont, and I used to kind of it'd be my own little world, you know. And he says but I want still like in it. It's like it's a course. And then one day he just drive the car and say jump in the car because we work in the same place right, so you had to do and that time we're Right, so you had to do it, and that time only into separate band, right, but still.

Corie: 1:11:00

So your friendship was forged as early as then. This is way back in the day, way back in the day. Nice, and, as you say, you stick together, little business concept and all that. So I find Kaiso Blues became a place where you could get a culture coming together. I'd gone down there and see recently, well, several different shows. We do shows there. I see Ben Jai do his show there, like several artists Today's Euro, if you want to put it like that. They do a lot of work down in Kaiso Blues. I'd like to say about performances, because you had this appetite for marathon performances. That was since back then, since in Roots days, I think. When did three and four shows start?

Rudder: 1:11:39

About.

Corie: 1:11:41

Or five.

Rudder: 1:11:43

About 20 years ago. Yeah, what happened is more songs they sing you need time. So you need more time to add to everybody. I didn't hear they didn't play this one, they didn't play that, they didn't play this. So you need more time to add to everybody. But I didn't play this one, I didn't play that, I didn't play this. So I said well, you have to play everything. Still more time to add to everybody.

Corie: 1:12:06

Yeah, I would imagine you can't do everything.

Rudder: 1:12:08

Yeah, if somebody has a song, that's a big hit one year and that's what boosted them to come on stage as a special guest 10 years later. They expected to sing that song. Yeah, yeah but when you have like Panama types of music right along with the engine room, high mass.

Corie: 1:12:30

And everybody coming to hear them favorite songs, yeah. So Normandy was weird, because I remember there's an album on Apple Music and thing now with the no Restrictions show from the Complex. Yeah, it was a marathon show too. That was two plus hours. They never stopped on stage the whole time, but Normandy was where the longer shows started.

Rudder: 1:12:48

No, my shows were Queen's Park Savannah. I'm sure it was Queen's Park Savannah.

Corie: 1:12:53

Oh, it's Savannah, and then you rally through. So I heard, I think you shocked the whole nation and I think you appreciated what it would have sounded like to all of us when we see you in Kaiso Blues Selvan. Even on the news, nobody's studying nothing there. Even on the news they would have come to make an announcement that well, first unfortunately diagnosed with Parkinson's, and then one of the things you said was that you're not going to do the. You know you only have a few of those very, very long shows in the early days. In terms of your creative process, I always like to ask people like yourselves what is your favorite part? Is it the writing? Is it the performing? For you, is it performing?

Rudder: 1:13:28

Yeah, when, when you write, you kind of look to see how people reacted, you know they know the song. How does you know how does one react to this particular song? Right, and sometimes you kind of expect a certain reaction, but a lot of times you get surprised okay, you're surprised how some people hold on to some of the ones.

Corie: 1:13:56

you might not expect, I guess, yeah. So what was that like for you, having to announce that now you're going to slow down with the performing part of it?

Rudder: 1:14:05

Well, I have to tell people, you know it's, it's kind of it does bother me. Sometimes I mean I just want to go back and sleep, it's like, but I can't, you know, because of the nature of the thing.

Corie: 1:14:22

So sometimes it's like I don't know yeah, ticket stole, yeah, but you seem to be to be rallying through it. A few things. As I say, you pop up a few places for carnival. You're still getting to perform, uh, and you did say you ain't doing too long. So so we, my mom and I, came to the show in song forge and I'll tell you that we don't know what to expect. I think the whole audience was there just wanting to show your appreciation and show love, but not really sure what to expect when you see something like that. But the show went on, for let me tell you how long it went on. Right, my mother couldn't stay no longer. She said, boy, you had to carry me home and we live in Wrightson James there. So I had to drop her home. My wife and I, we went to drop her home and we take you to the rest of the show On the foreshore. We park up on the foreshore.

Rudder: 1:15:05

Yeah.

Corie: 1:15:06

Yeah, yeah. So after performances now you still feel good. You're not feeling like overly drained or Okay. So it's something that you're going to continue to do, yeah.

Rudder: 1:15:14

I think I think for much here they deliver.

Corie: 1:15:18

Yeah, and I think the audience, um, the audience loves to see the people who would have been there from the beginning, as well as people they say I, I don't know. Who is this generation you're talking about. Who's saying that? They might know David Rudder, but I think when I look at that crowding song Forge, I was seeing all ages, like that's something you notice at your shows usually, where it's people of all ages and you're seeing some older people but a lot of young people at our show too. Yeah, gotcha. One more question about that song before we close off. Rally Wrongly West Indies was a song that at one point I suppose, as you say a fan of Calypso cricket you had stopped performing. It was because of the performance of the West Indies at the time, or what made you not want to perform the song?

Rudder: 1:16:00

I was just disappointed in the fact that there was a lack of effort.

Corie: 1:16:05

Uh-huh, you know.

Rudder: 1:16:06

I find that I think most people following West Indies cricket they're mainly losing. If it's losing with a, but we come up for it again. We'll get there next time, you know you know, you're getting that.

Corie: 1:16:22

It's prayers it's this and that and the other nothing.

Rudder: 1:16:26

Same mistakes again you can actually see sometimes who this one he can get more. You can predict it. Same mistakes again. You could actually see sometimes who this one he can build some.

Corie: 1:16:31

You could predict it, right, yeah, so that you felt like as a fan, they're not reciprocating, they're not giving you back that kind of effort you're putting in as a fan. So where did it come about where Rally Rungly Western well, I guess it's a mix between Rally Rung, the West Indies and high mass A little bit that they use as the West Indies anthem. They didn't have anthem For years. They used to play Some kind of piece when we had anthem.

Rudder: 1:16:53

What happened Before they used to play. If Larry is the captain. They play the train and the national anthem. Oh, I see, if one is the captain they play the Jamaican anthem, got it. So they say this can't sustain.

Corie: 1:17:06

So they come and ask me for oh, they came and talked to you, so you all worked it up they did that survey what was your favourite anthem for the wrestling team?

Rudder: 1:17:14

and nearly everybody said you're going to ask that question, you know. So Tony Hartford came as a soul and he said we wanted you to redo this anthem and I said no problem original lyric was no noble thoughts brought us here to this island. I said hello, we're in a line.

Corie: 1:17:34

I suppose. I suppose they're quick to learn all that, so I said I'm going to change it.

Rudder: 1:17:39

But I said to this region Right.

Corie: 1:17:42

So you made the adjustments, so the final product was really your putting together.

Rudder: 1:17:46

Yes, but is that?

Corie: 1:17:47

a piece of high mass in the days we're here.

Rudder: 1:17:49

Let me voice be raised and when I did it, I'm the last world cup we had here.

Corie: 1:17:55

Yeah, how was that?

Rudder: 1:17:57

Everywhere I go, people say that song, that song, and people tell me that it's from the other teams. You know, South African team. That is an anthem Dream on you brother. That is an anthem. Yeah, million brother.

Corie: 1:18:11

That is an anthem, yeah, wow.

Rudder: 1:18:13

Thanks for that Guy from New Zealand, thanks for that so the song itself has its own yeah, its own life yeah it's neither one of the other. They listen to what the lyrics say and it's, like you know, interesting.

Corie: 1:18:28

Yeah, I suppose, yeah, they connect with it. So it looked like, you know, mm-hmm Interesting. Yeah, I suppose, yeah, they connect with it. So it looked like something. He was emotional at the time delivering his song. As a fan, you felt.

Rudder: 1:18:37

Yeah.

Corie: 1:18:38

Yeah, After so many years of not doing it. Yeah, especially that it was in Brian Lara's stadium.

Rudder: 1:18:43

I think a lot of people were moved At the end of that in Guyana, the board wanted me to come to Trinidad. Then we went to Antigua.

Corie: 1:18:54

So you found that the region accepted it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, good.

Rudder: 1:18:58

It was actually getting a different emotional level every game. The reaction to it was like people screaming yeah, they come in to hear that, they come in to hear that. So I said, if this team can't win with this, you're in more trouble than we thought.

Corie: 1:19:09

Hear that you know they're coming to hear that. So if this team can't win with this I mean more trouble than we thought Well, they're winning some T20 and things right, I mean a lot of changes have happened. So, from a regional standpoint, you've won several awards, regional awards, Humminbird, Silver I believe you were UN Goodwill Ambassador at one point in time. These awards and accolades, they mean a lot to you when you receive them.

Rudder: 1:19:33

They mean a lot. When I talk to young people about the dreams and aspirations, I always tell them 86 was my first, my big year. That was my 21st year in the business, you know, and here.

Corie: 1:19:49

This is where I end up working in the UN.

Rudder: 1:19:52

I'm teaching about projects and you know, and I'm talking to you guys in school here I'm in the university Dartmouth College, columbia University, united States you know URI and so I'm always trying to say to them you know, this life is very short to them, you know this life is very short. So when you reach this age, it's kind of it's how fast the years pass. It's something else. You know, young and strong, now just go out and do it. Yeah, do it, do good work, do your good work.

Corie: 1:20:20

In terms of following your dreams. Following your dreams, yeah and your connection with young people. I noticed how much of the artists would have showed up for you at the time. Marshall was there, voice, I remember Mikael Tejo.

Rudder: 1:20:31

one at Bigfoot was there, several several artists and we had to actually turn back and look at people. It was just yeah it would have been 10 hours. Not so much me, but the band.

Corie: 1:20:43

Oh yeah, it's not you going to be tired of the band. The band had to run a marathon there. When I see that and I see how they show up for you and how you show up for them, even in the surprise where we started, with the surprise with Mohammed and they, it feels so good to know that when you were in 86, as you say, at your pinnacle, when you started achieving your dreams, you say 21 years in how people will be saying you're singing this and you're singing that and you know they call it fight down now, right, but you don't seem to have that in you at all. You embrace youth and bring them into into the fray a lot. Yeah, it's a great thing to see when you're connected uh, that connection with, with destra in particular. It seemed to have a strong connection there and she do songs like lamentable and so on on accolades and the and the region.

Corie: 1:21:26

I always say and I know you're mad up to date with current affairs. You're still reading and everything. You're still up to date. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you hear Mia Motley the way she talks about you now, because she does that at the UN and regional conferences and so on. Mia Motley, never she doesn't waste the opportunity to sing the praises of David Rudder. How does that feel to you?

Rudder: 1:21:42

I feel very honored.

Corie: 1:21:51

It means that whatever I'm doing, it's reaching people at all different levels and that's all it can hope for. Well, I appreciate it. Listen, I want to. I want to tell people how this came about. Right, so we it was. It was, uh. I've been on a sort of journey to document the some of these stories of people like yourselves. You could never do it an hour and a half, but I appreciate people uh, telling the stories and just making some of the connections that you made today. But I want to tell people that I made one phone call. He said, yes, I'll come in and do it, and then, maybe a week after, we're here doing it, and it's something I appreciate, and the more stories I hear about you, it sounds as though you're always one phone call away for anybody who's interested in your work.

Rudder: 1:22:24

Yeah, I also have a group of people who feel I'm very standoffish. I hear so, though the thing about it is I'm in a crowd and I'm really in vatican, so it doesn't have to do with the people who are around you.

Corie: 1:22:42

You're in your own zone.

Rudder: 1:22:43

I can't see them, I can't see. But my wife, she works with children with autism and things like that. Right, she said when she was a month into the job. She said that's you, Mm-hmm.

Corie: 1:23:00

She said it might be that, yeah, that's why you zone out completely on people here. So he heard from himself. Right, he's saying, not unapproachably, just in your own zone. I like that, I like that, I like that. So it's something I want to tell you thanks for, not just for coming out today, but for everything that you have done for us as a society, for us as a region, Overcoming. I heard your story in another interview talking about your neighbor who used to join you and you crawl and you pick up some nails and you found out about polio at the time. So you battle through some things that there are a lot of people who might face some of the things you face and give up, but you even now started to.

Rudder: 1:23:39

I don't know. Sometimes with me, I just say this is supposed to be a handicap. No, I will make make it into something else. That's how I approach life.

Corie: 1:23:49

I think a lot of people take in inspiration from that and I appreciate you continuing to do it and I hope that all the things you talk about in terms of your future like when I have younger artists here, I always like to ask them, because you hear the joy come out in them when you ask them where's the future for this person? You know, like you say, you don of years ahead, so I want to ask you the same thing when do you see the future for you in terms of what you're doing next?

Rudder: 1:24:11

Well, that's why I'm working on the book now, a lyric book, autobiography. There are two different universities going to do. They chose some songs that they're going to put an intellectual bent on these, you know. So it should be a lot of different stuff out there in the next 12 months, 12 years.

Corie: 1:24:33

I appreciate that and I'm looking forward to hearing what you and Narelle come up with. Every time you all do something, it is, it is genius level. So I appreciate you. We're looking forward to that, as as the announcements come and we know we go find you by Kaizo Blues, sometimes surprising somebody, and we go approaching. This time we know you're in Blanchishes but we will come up Because I'm sure people always want to come up to you just to say thanks or just to say how much they love you or to debate what's their favorite song. So he in Blanchishes, remember that right, but he present and he open to talking. So I appreciate you coming.

Corie: 1:25:08

No problem, all right. Thanks very much.

Rudder: 1:25:09

It was one of the best interviews I've done.

Corie: 1:25:11

I appreciate that. I appreciate that that means a lot coming from you. Thanks very much. You know one thing I wanted to ask you about. There's a particular song you sing about tracking women, right. Enough respect, right, and the way you put together that mastery behind it. I had two questions. I didn't want to. I want to ask, but I don't want to answer, if you ever get through with the sweet and the sweetness on what is 10,000 bullets of wet love but don't answer them. Questions, right? We don't end on a good note already. So I appreciate you coming through very much. I appreciate that. Thanks Enough. Respect is one of my favourite too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rudder: 1:25:48

Easily one of my favourite songs the funny thing about that one is that a doctor came, a gynecologist come and said you realise you're impotent. I said it's not millennial, it's 10 billion. He said oh, sorry, sorry, oh, you say you're good. He came to me and advised me. He said you're good. You can't make me advice you to you. Stick out your body, just tell me something you know. I think you're important, you're potent.

Corie: 1:26:16

Yeah, hello, puppy, you write that in a short space of time too.

Rudder: 1:26:22

Yeah.

Corie: 1:26:23

You know what I mean. You never take no set of time to write songs. I've seen that trend here. A little birdie, tell me that you have a lot, of, a lot of hidden gems in your writing and a lot of your songs. There's a Mary Ashby. He was telling me that you have, he said, the Belmont song.

Rudder: 1:26:40

That's true. You know that should be like a. It is a classic because anyway I go with Belmont people.

Corie: 1:26:50

I see the reactions when you do it in Songforge, belmont crawl. People want to. It's one of them. Songs that's classics. I mean you have so much classics it's really, it's really, really a lot. But you tell my partner that was an ode to Nigel Ross, grandfather. Hands up, hands up, you're in sky. Hands up, hands up here, the orange guy. One day we go to the Saifale music, the universities will do it. You ever, you ever. I saw Kendrick Lamar, a rapper in the States on the West Coast, have a Pulitzer Prize for literature. You ever apply for it?

Rudder: 1:27:21

Apply for it.

Corie: 1:27:22

Yeah, they say there's an application process and you do a Pulitzer Prize for literature, it no? Alright. Well, let me do that. We'll reach out to all the people who are in the literary society and see how we can get at that, because some of your writing is purely surprise deserving for me. Thank you.