Gervase Warner - Failures Forged a Leader | Corie Sheppard Podcast

In this candid and wide-ranging conversation, former Massy Group CEO Gervase Warner reflects on the setbacks, risks, and defining decisions that shaped his journey from a struggling secondary school student to Harvard Business School, McKinsey partner, and one of the Caribbean’s most influential business leaders.

Warner shares the lesser-known stories behind his path — academic rejection, early professional failures, and the unexpected gap-year experience that strengthened his leadership foundation. He explains why he left a prestigious global consulting career to return to the Caribbean, and how he helped transform Neal & Massy into Massy through culture change, strategic divestment, and purpose-driven leadership.

The episode explores:

Competing — and succeeding — in elite global institutions

Building and leading at McKinsey

Returning home to lead during a complex corporate transition

Rebranding and reorganising a Caribbean conglomerate

Conscious capitalism and why focusing on people can drive stronger performance

Navigating public controversy and leadership under scrutiny

The role of self-awareness, discipline, and personal growth in executive leadership

Race, identity, and responsibility in regional leadership

This is a masterclass in resilience, ambition, and the reality behind corporate leadership at the highest level.

A story about failure, growth, and the courage to evolve.

Transcript

Pan Talk And Warm-Up Banter

Corie 0:01

Welcome to the Corey Shuffle Podcast. Welcome back to everybody who's been listening. Thank you for everybody who knew who's tuning in. Today we have with us one of the greatest business minds, in my humble opinion, in the in the Caribbean and beyond, Mr. Juvies. What are we going to say?

SPEAKER_03 0:16

I didn't know you were a comedian.

Corie 0:21

Oh, everything.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

Everything is great.

Corie 0:23

Oh, you enjoy the pan. We're talking pan results before you start.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

I see. No, that's that's not nice.

SPEAKER_04 0:28

That's a terrible way to begin this interview. You know, we came seven, you know, we dropped four places since the preliminaries, and that's how you want to start.

Corie 0:35

I didn't tell you Duvan Start was here before. Uh-huh. And the fact that Duvon is in the lead going into the finals is the best place for us to start. Why not? You know?

SPEAKER_03 0:42

Yeah, well, you know, DuVon is often in the lead going into the finals.

Corie 0:45

All the time, right?

SPEAKER_03 0:46

Yes, yes, yes.

Corie 0:46

I was telling somebody the other day that I enjoy how now, as they opened it up some years ago to the songs from any era, I was looking at Duvan doing lizard, all Sars doing the Will. I think it was um Soundsetters who did Woman on the Bass. Yes. It's encouraging to see how you'd connect it to some of those songs from I I agree.

SPEAKER_03 1:04

I agree. I agree. Because you know they wouldn't have grown up with some of that. But the music is that's some timeless music. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. So when you when you hear it, people can relate it indeed. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Corie 1:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was confused that how Exodus comes second, but you say you hear them and they sound good.

SPEAKER_03 1:17

No, Exodus sounded very good.

Corie 1:19

It's not best of stars, or of course. Yeah, it's a temperature checking up to see what kind of answers we'll be getting today.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

Of course not. But I no, but Exodus did sound, and I also saw Skittle's song very good as well. I mean, I I was, you know, in the Northstand in the center, listening to some of the bands, but I didn't hear Rene Gates because I was on the trackers while Stars was coming on next.

Corie 1:43

All right, so you're coming up with them.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Yeah, yeah.

Corie 1:45

All right, good. So who's retirement? Uh that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:48

You know, retirement is one of those things that people often say, boy, if I knew it was so sweet, I would have done it sooner. Enjoy it. No, I'm enjoying it, I'm enjoying retirement, but also, you know, to be realistic, you know, you have to do your work. Right. Right. So you can get to a point where you can indeed enjoy your retirement. And I that's that's where I am now. Yes.

Corie 2:07

No, the amount of times we phone ring before we start, this retirement is one of them retirements where you're relaxing or you're still on the clock or how it's going.

Redefining Retirement And New Commitments

SPEAKER_03 2:14

Well, you know, for me anyway, the beauty is you kind of have more of your own time. So you don't want to be doing nothing and just being on the beach all the time because you want to be active, you want to be thinking, you want to be challenged. So I think that I have a good balance between the boards I serve on, the initiatives I choose to take on and spend time with, the um getting back involved with Boys to Men. Uh, that's a fantastic organization. Um, helping with uh the CARICOM private sector organization. These are some exciting things then and you know, some hardcore things like being on the Sandals resorts board. That's as but not so much that I can't, you know, say, okay, well, next week I'll go in Barbados and spending a week, you know.

Corie 2:55

Okay, good, good, good. I'm glad to hear you enjoyed it. Well, well deserved. Well disserved.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

Thank you.

Corie 3:00

I was looking at something that said you did a pilgrimage of sorts to Spain as part of what we did when you just you just set us away.

The Camino: 32 Days Of Reflection

SPEAKER_03 3:06

Yes, yes, yes. Well, you know, Corey, we're talking about um challenges in life. And when I retired from Massey among the noise and confusion that happened at that at that point in time, one of the things that I felt I needed to do was to take some time off. Like uh Robert Bemudas, who had been my chairman for many years, uh said to me, don't accept or do anything for at least six months.

SPEAKER_06 3:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:30

And as part of my own, I would say, process of processing what had occurred, I took it upon myself to go do this 32-day walking pilgrimage from Saint-Jean-Pierre-de-Port in France to Santiago de Compostela um in uh Spain. Um, so you walk right across Spain from the west part of Spain to almost the east coast of Spain. And, you know, doing that for 32 days on your own gives you a lot of time for reflection, a lot of time for healing, a lot of time for kind of examining what it is you want to do next. And it was really perfect for me. It was really kind of just what the doctor ordered and prescribed. And I think that I it was just it was a transformational experience. I came out of that experience with uh deep reflections of you know, things that I felt I knew that I could have done better or differently, uh, things that I felt that um, you know, the I'd like to spend more time doing and and and uh kind of places to forgive myself and others and come to peace with where I was. Yeah.

Corie 4:42

Yeah. I'll usually see you in church in church on uh uh St. Mary's Church. That's that's a Catholic villa uh voyage is is is based on the yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 4:51

So it's a it's the root of um pilgrims for many years, and the significance of the cathedral in and santiago de compostela is that it is where the um remains of Saint James the Apostle are kept. I can't say buried, it's he's he's interned there. So it's a it's a Catholic, it's a but you know, people from all religions and all walks do it. It's not necessarily it can be very religious. So, you know, I when I was there, there was a priest who happened to be walking along at the same time, and often he would say mass daily, and I would attend them when I joined hooked up with with uh the Living Waters community for the last seven days. They said mass. They had a priest with them, they said mass every day. So I joined them most of the days for that. But um, you know, a lot of the time was spent just with other people I met along the way and or just walking on my own in deep reflection, some meditation moments, etc. etc.

Corie 5:49

Yeah, with you. I heard them say is how much miles you're walking a day when you're there.

SPEAKER_03 5:54

Well, it depends. So the beautiful thing about it is that you are doing this at your own pace. Oh, I see. Uh so on the average, uh, I probably walked like 25 kilometers a day, 20 to 25 kilometers a day. So that's you know, four, six hours, some days longer than that. But you never walk in for four, six hours straight. You know, you walk for a couple hours, you stop, you take a coffee, you stop again, you have lunch, you stop again, you take another coffee or some you know, refreshments in the afternoon. And then, you know, if you leave at eight, you're usually arriving by two o'clock in the afternoon. You have a you know, a meal or you go take a little rest and then you come out in the afternoon to go again. It's it's it's not you know, it's it's it sounds like it's worse than it actually is.

Corie 6:43

I feel like you seek out difficult things, right?

SPEAKER_04 6:46

Tell me what that is not that is not from France. That's not entirely untrue, as well.

Corie 6:51

Okay, this is a way to enjoy retirement. I like it. No, as I suddenly beginning from standpoint of business minds, like when I look at the institutions, I was just looking back at your what the the path you took then. Yeah, sure. Uh, and some of the institutions it's been to where I went to school, like it locally here, St. Mary's. St. Mary's. I think David is deliberately booking St. Mary's people week after week after week. We have this is the only school we talk to people here now.

SPEAKER_03 7:20

No, there are some other good schools as well. But back in the day when I was there, St. Mary's was bad. Without question, the best school in it. All right, this was nice.

SPEAKER_04 7:33

It was nice having you here. I said back when I was there, I don't mean I doesn't necessarily mean it's necessarily well it's true, it's true, it's true.

SPEAKER_03 7:40

Because Fatima catch up, Fatima catch up over the years. Yeah, and the girls' schools have ways to pass the boys' schools, you know. Yeah, it's true by now, but if I if I my my son was going into school, I want him to go to a girl's school. And you know, it's almost every level.

Corie 7:53

Every level. If you go to two or three, you see the classes filled with women and the case. So St. Mary's, what kind of student you are then? You're doing well in school and that kind of thing to get into St. Mary's, you have to be you have to be doing pretty good at earning. All right, so you want story?

Lessons From Early Academic Failures

SPEAKER_03 8:06

Yeah, all right. St. Mary's, my experience is my first sort of really knowing how to fail. And a succession of failures and overcoming failures to get me to where I am now. All right. So the first part of the story is I went to Trinity Junior School and I did not pass for St. Mary's, which was my first choice. I passed for Trinity College. And uh a friend of mine reminded me because I had it kind of blocked it out of my memory. I actually went to register at Trinity College and I couldn't. And I broke down and I left the registration process and went back home. Um, so I remember crying for days because I did not get in, and now everybody's gonna know I'm stupid, and what my mother used to say, everybody's gonna know it's true. And so I decided now I'm going to repeat common entrance. And I decided that I was going to be first, but I could not go back to Trinity Jr. because I was embarrassed now. So I went to another primary school, Romilly's. All right. If you don't know Romilies and the other one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Mr. Romilly was very, very, very strict, etc. Anyway. Um, but there I met another young young man, and he would always come first, and I would come second. And I it was frustrating. I could not beat this, this, this, this young fella. Uh, anyway, I got into St. Mary's, no problem. I got into the A stream, right? Now I want to skip form three. Oh, right, okay. Get back to pace. To get back to pace. So you do your exams at the end of uh form two, and um, well, I get back my results and I wanted to do science, but I failed science. And so they say I cannot skip. But I could skip, but I could do like science, you know, accounts on commerce and stuff like that, which you know, for science people was like, well, that was what left back.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

That's what that's what you're left back. You know, if that people can't do science, we'll do this do that kind of I listen now.

SPEAKER_03 10:11

I then became business, I studied under the MBA, so I have a lot of respect for accounts on commerce and business now, right? But but back then that was how it was. So anyway, um, so so so so Corey, you say interesting stories, right? So I am must be 13 years old or something of the sort. What happened is that I was decent in science, but the night before the exam, I stayed up and I was cramming, cramming, cramming. And I I knew stuff, right? I mean, I was top of my game, and then I didn't get sleep and went in, and I like couldn't remember anything in the morning. So, anyway, so I I I but these are important lessons. So I failed science, right? I got 34 or something in science, and um I asked my dad if he could take me to see the principal so I could ask if I could still skip. Because it was still it was it's kind of confusing. You could you could skip and you can't do this up. So anyway, I go to see the principal, Father Divatile. Father takes me in, the father divertile is late. He's half hour late, 45. After an hour, my dad says, Well, listen, I have meetings to go to. I go on. So he leaves me there. So I'm now 13 years old speaking to the principal, and I'm now pidding my case to the principal, right? But these are important lessons, right? This is like how you learn to stand up for yourself, how you learn to explain. So I say, Step Father Divertile, and meekest voice, you know. I you know, I really I I got nervous, you know. If you look and I have I've I walk with papers, you have the grades to prove. I have judgment book for term midterm exact results. If you saw I got in my 80s in the midterm, if you look at my math score, my sense So Father Divoty said, Well, you know, one on the basis of your math score, which was I know 90 something, um, we will give you a chance to go to form four, right? But if you struggle in sciences in form four, you will have to either come back to form three or you'll have to choose different subjects. Okay. Okay. So okay, all right, like that that works. That works. I mean, yeah, yeah, you know, you can do it. Yeah, yeah, no problem. So story of my life is a series of failures, right? So I go into form four and I decide, you know what? I can't monkey around. So every evening, regardless of whether there was homework assigned or not, I studied for three hours. Right? I would just revise what we had been read ahead in the chapters between 6 and 9 p.m. I studied. All right. Along comes the um chemistry teacher from 4B into 4A. I don't know, two weeks into the term. And they say, We have too many people in chemistry and 4A. We need three students to move over to 4B. All right. No problem. I am now who decided I'm going to be a studious fella. I'm sitting in the front row, middle. He's standing right in front of you about standing, right? So he says, okay, all those who got between 50 and 60 in science, stand. Two fellas stand out. I got 34, right? No, you you have to agree with me that 34 is not between 50 and 60, right? That's right, right. Right? So two fellas are already standing. You say, okay, all those who got between 60 and 65. I'm now trying to get some attention, right? Because I know I and C I C, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:46

You had to be honest. You had to be a good thing this is not gonna work out well for me if I go literally by what he said. I I just know Yeah, go back fire.

SPEAKER_03 13:57

They go back fire. So he said, so I'm like trying to be discreet.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

All that's between six years, and so numbers group. I said, excuse me, sir. He said, What happened, Mona? What happened? Sir, I got 34.

SPEAKER_05 14:15

34? What are you doing here?

SPEAKER_00 14:25

If you hear the roll of laughter in four years, oh my god, all of hear that, but I was I was called 34 for a few weeks after that.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

34 boy.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

Play that to be play with anyway, yeah. Anyway, Corey, if that wasn't enough, two weeks later in 4B enough. So I go into 4B, and I don't know what Mr. Pear was doing, but he started us in chapter six. So we had done six, seven, and eight in the chemistry book. In 4B, they started where normal people would start, one, two, three. Right? So, you know, I go over to 4B, and you know, I have about two chapters of chemistry that I have to read myself to catch up. Anyway, two weeks later they have midterms. Great. Midterms results come back. Guess what your boy gets in chemistry? How do you be in the 90s by law? No, no, Corey.

SPEAKER_02 15:27

Your boy got zero. How are you getting to zero?

SPEAKER_03 15:32

Well, I got nothing correct. You attempt to answer the questions, isn't it? I I I wrote my name and I wrote answers for every question I could think of.

Gap Year, Surveys, And First Leadership

SPEAKER_02 15:43

No, no, the good news is that the high score was like 38 in the class. Okay, it was a rough exam. Well, you're top scoring to the point by any right. So so you you would have to admit now zero is is what the average. Is is this is a problem. So off I go to see the dean of form four to now explain myself because of course if I'm gonna struggle in science, I have to go back to form three.

Corie 16:07

Oh, yeah, but choose different subjects, you man say.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

So, I mean, I I I kind of feel like well, how many excuses they're gonna be making up for yourself as a um Macintosh was the dean.

SPEAKER_05 16:19

I said, but but so um they transferred me from 4A to 4B, and 4B was in different, they had a whole different set of material. This is the way you're going with this what we need.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Then you say he said, Well, what are you on the watch list?

Corie 16:36

You're gonna pick up a current law, so they keep you in form four.

SPEAKER_03 16:39

They kept me allowed. I was allowed to be, I was allowed to. So the next exam now, I got 33. All right, so we go in up, but the median was 50. Okay, and uh eventually, I eventually uh in form 4. 4B and 4A were doing the same. I came first in chemistry because one thing I studied was chemistry. Make sure. But no, they laughed me out of school, man. So I had to beat Hanna Nan, who was like the smartest kid, right? Yeah, and and so so that's that's that that was my little story about about CIC and and um interesting how I got it. So then after that, that's I I decided, look, I had a study.

Corie 17:15

Yeah, at that point in time, clear was that yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was another lecture. We went to his uh in Fatima proper school, right? And I went to his his parents' day, his parents' day yesterday. How many scholarships did they get? All and we hand them out to other schools in need, you know? It's a charity thing. Should keep some now. I got to last on Fatima Scholarship. But I had the. Sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

I really do not fatty my five time.

Corie 17:42

I went to uh first parents' day are going to in form two, same 13, right? And I'm in the line now to go to a teacher who taught me in school, who's now form two day. Oh, wow. And my son in his school, right? So his experience in school is totally different to mine, right? Because I used to take my mother to wherever the longest line is in Parents' Day, so she don't get to see no teachers. Eventually she will get fed up and she and we will leave because I was chaotic in school. And I'm going to every um every teacher you go, you sit, and it, you know, I was looking at the people before us and tell them this and what they have to improve. And it was a long discussion. And when I sit with him, they say, um, all right, no behavioralists, he's excellent. And we get up fast. So this is my first experience having a good day at Parents' Day. Wow. So now I reach the form, the form 2D, Mr. Simon, and he goes to the thing and he says, Um, I said, Shepard Bob. Then he looks at me, he says, Shepard Bob. He said, This is your son. He said, Boy, his son does excellent thing. He said, You want to tell you about your father? Problem. I know everybody's in the same. And my son looks at me. Reverse parent teacher visitors. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting, it's interesting. Because I was telling me before we start, right? Sometimes people hear, like, if you if they look at you today, yes, they're going to be shocked at stories like those. People think you went to school, you study everything, you pass everything, you did well, and you continue to Excel. And form 4 is when that change came. Yes. So where you did then you went on to form six, and so I'm trying to figure out how you get into schools like Harvard and whatnot. This place is impossible to get into anybody.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

But I just feel my way forward.

SPEAKER_03 19:25

Are you serious? So I I did um maths in Form 6. I got an additional scholarship and I wanted to go away. Uh, so I wanted to find a program because an additional schol doesn't guarantee that you the government will pay for you to go away. Additional scholar, UE. But if you find something that isn't offered at UE, so I found a combination degree, computer science and electrical engineering together. Those that I could have done at University of Pennsylvania. Um, I apply. Princeton, MIT, and the University of Pennsylvania.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

That's what I applied to. No backup plan.

McKinsey Meritocracy And Making Partner

SPEAKER_03 20:13

No backup plan. That's where I wanted to go. I got rejected from all or got wait listed at 10. So the next so so what happens? I had a gap here, an unintentional gap yeah. And in this gap year, I uh had been working um for NP conducting LPG surveys. Uh telling you the story because it'll come back to how I got into Harvard. So because I was the first person to show up for the job, they gave me the job of going and getting all the LPG receipts from all of these different places that sell LPG so I could find out where the tanks go, so I could plan a survey. So I mean, I was a you know, six maths at I was alright at organizing, so drop a little they had no spreadsheet and make rulers and things, right? Rulers and look at the map and see so I did this thing and I mapped out and how long it would take, and then they started to hire people to come help conduct the survey. Right. Now, because literally, because I was the guy who was there on day one, and I was the one who got all the receipts and created the plan, I became basically the manager of the team. Right. And so because I did not get into school and I had to take this gap here, I had a year of organizing and going out all across Trinidad and Tobago and getting to know the country and interact with people, conducting survey and directing people who were much older than me on what we were doing today. All right, so we had like at one point in time, I think we were 10 of us with five vehicles. And it would say, Okay, you're going here, you're going there, and I At the end of the day, everybody brings back their results. And again, because they are no computer, I am the guy collating the results and putting them all together and creating the um how you call it uh uh insights for management to see as to how this thing is unfolding. Whereas them fellas playing cards and eating doubles and things, I am actually I am actually doing the collation of the results, right? Which I didn't mind at all because every day we were done by two p.m. No, because I had to plan this plan you know how much work to do you guys could be able to we had to finish by lunchtime because then we had to come back into the office. So anyway, um, why is that instructive? So then the following year I reapplied to the same schools and I got into Penn and I really liked Penn and I went to Penn to study electrical engineering, computer science engineering. With my first self, I took two engineering degrees on. And um when I get up there, not only do I take on the two hardest engineering degrees, but because I now want to catch up again. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I use I use my maths and physics credits from A-levels to place out a freshman year. So I start with sophomore year courses and with my fire self are running track at the same time.

Corie 23:20

So since back then in athletics, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:23

So so so anyway, it was it was too much, and I had to drop out of track eventually. And I got through pen and got to get my grades back up because I started to look with uh my my scholarship in jeopardy if I can't get a maintainer 3.2 average and that kind of stuff. So, anyway, um what's interesting is that when I was applying to Harvard Business School, I was able to fold back on this experience I had as an 18-year-old managing and planning this survey and managing people and going out there and interacting with people. In my essay that I wrote about, you know, what is your experience that you have in leadership or something of the sort. And um, yeah, and I got in there. So it turns out that, you know, this thing that happened that I thought was a great calamity and a total failure where I didn't get in all my friends going off to university, and my jackass self is I'm sorry, you can edit that up. My foolish self is is is is stuck here in Trinidad, um, like a wayward, you know, without without advancing. So it turns out to have been a really, really important fundamental managerial experience for me.

Corie 24:28

Yeah, then you're seeing this as leadership at 18. You've seen yourself developing into a leader. Yeah, you're thinking of it like that.

SPEAKER_03 24:32

Well, no, no, no. I was just doing the job and it was it was good money and it was kicks. Right.

Corie 24:37

You had to do something.

SPEAKER_03 24:38

I had to do something. It was a good job though. It was a really good job and work with nice people and got to see the country.

Corie 24:47

That's what I was just thinking. You know, when you're at that age and you're moving around, it's a hell of a thing. Yeah. So when did it switch for you? Is it deliberate? You wanted to study business, or you shifted from engineering in terms of the career?

SPEAKER_03 25:00

Yeah, so you know, it's funny because at every stage there's some form of catch-ass that is a crucible for which a discovery is made, right? You must keep this in mind.

SPEAKER_07 25:10

You must keep this in mind, right?

Choosing Home: Impact Over Prestige

SPEAKER_03 25:12

So I went to school in '84. I I finished high school in '83, so I had that gap, yeah. So I went out into the workplace in '88. And you might remember that in '86 we had this massive um oil crisis, and the country went into a really bad recession. And all of my friends who were graduating school in '87 who came back home, none of them could find jobs in their fields. You know, people were working selling wine, somebody was working in some of those merchandising kind of jobs you were talking about. And people who had engineering degrees were not working as engineers. So I was determined that I didn't want to come home. I wanted to work in the States. Well, I could only find one job. One person would hire me. Because of course, I'm a I know green card, so they had to get sponsored for green card, and I went to work at ATT. Uh, my first job, the guy who hired me, when I the day that I showed up for work, is the day that he left the job and got transferred to Chicago. I left me with a new boss who didn't want me to do what he hired me to do. She wanted me to do systems administration, desktop with your computer not working, which is not what I wanted to do. So, anyway, I eventually was able through the same company to get moved to Bell Labs. And that's where this crucible moment took place. Because I'm at Bell Labs and we're working on designing uh the system that will provision new circuits and a broadband, early broadband uh service. And um along come some consultants. Well, first of all, comes a marketing guy, and you know, I I find that everybody has to listen to what he says. I said, I don't think that that's what the customer wants. Well, no, he has an MBA, and we now have to design to what he says. So I said, What is this MBA thing, boy? I need to swim upstream, right? And then I got on, put on a big re-engineering project, and again I started work with these fellas who are MBAs and some consultants, and they used to fly in from Boston and fancy suits and spend time with us, and we went through uh drawing our process diagrams and re-engineering. I said, But that is a nice walk, man. That is a nice walk. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:24

I said, Why are you doing here, boy? I I am deep downstream from where the decisions are. I want I need to swim upstream the way the decisions are being made.

SPEAKER_03 27:33

And that's when I decided to, you know, go do an MBA and pursue business more from a point of view of having impact uh than being at the influence. And so back in those days, that's where technology was. Now, nowadays you want to be a uh a technologist because that's the leading edge. Those are the people who are driving decision making um and writing code and that sort of stuff. But back then we were sort of the back office driving more decision making.

Corie 28:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, the the discussion around diversity and inclusion and things is a big is is mainstream discussion now in corporate. But back then, you go into schools deliberately where the history of them schools, uh a young black fella in getting into them schools or might not be able to apply, yeah. Or young black Trinidadian fella, you're just making it more and more difficult. That's why you walk all about Spain, you know, you like the hard route. What why why those schools, just because they're the best?

Culture Shock At Neal & Massy

Mentors, Loss, And Sudden Succession

SPEAKER_03 28:27

Yeah, you didn't see yourself as worried about your no, no, no, no. Um, it's an interesting topic to explore because when I was seven, my dad went to MIT Sloan School, and the whole family moved up to Boston, and I was basically the victim of real nasty racism in primary school, right? So I'm seven, I'm in class with eight-year-old or nine-year-old fellas who they're not so bright, and they would call me all sorts of racial slurs, and I would call them Duncy. And uh, you know, I say, you know, when dog poop tries and it turns white on the outside, that that was they used to chase me down at break time and lunchtime and beat me up, right? Five of them. Yeah. No, two or three of them. If I held them on my own, I could I could I could I could, you know. So anyway, this only stopped when my when my sister, who was a at the time, you know, she was like 11. But she was, you know, girls grow bigger than faster than boys. She was a big 11, yeah. With King Row Platts in her head. And she and my brother and two of their friends from higher came down and told these fellas that they needed to stop cooling, to cool it, otherwise, my sister was gonna beat them up. Right? That would not be good for them. Anyway, so I had this experience of real racism in Boston at a young age. Um, notwithstanding I did not have, and I guess I wasn't there long enough to have it it kind of in my bones that I'm less than. Because I was from Trinidad, and in Trinidad, anybody could be anything, right? We have lots of examples of people in leadership positions, etc. It's only when I went to Penn and I was walking up and down the campus, and every black person I've I met, to your question, would go, sir. And I'd be like, Did he say hello to me? And I'd be like, Sir. But I don't know them. And then I begin to understand that there is this, and it's almost like an expression of I see you, and I see the challenge and pain you have, and uh, I didn't understand it. At first I was confused, and over time I got to appreciate it and understand it. And yes, you're right, I like a challenge, and so you know, anytime I met anything that looked like you uh thinking that I am less than, because your automatic judgment of me is that I'm not as smart as, or I'm not as articulate as, or game on. Yeah, I'm gonna show you. And I did that in many meetings where I would just really mess up people who were superior to me, had more experience than I did. I take them down a level of detail, I demonstrated them, I knew more than they did, and I would do it with the clean English. You know? You do it proper. Proper. No, and people knew not to not to mess with me, right? Right. They knew not to mess with me.

Corie 31:43

Yeah, because both those schools, you would have had to be a real minority in Harvard Business. And Harvard Business was MBA.

SPEAKER_03 31:49

Yes.

Corie 31:49

Uh Pennsylvania was engineering. Engineering, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

You went on to you went to Wharton too, or it was just Wharton is at the University of Pennsylvania, so people associate Penn with Wharton. Right, right, right.

Corie 32:00

But I didn't study at Wharton. I see, I see, I see. So, what was the path? What were you thinking when you graduate with the MBA? Now you're going back into in management and engineering. What's your thought process in terms of what comes out?

SPEAKER_03 32:09

So when you get to um Harvard Business School, you start to understand there are two really prestigious pathways for graduates. One is in investment banking, and the other is in consulting.

Corie 32:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 32:20

Uh, investment banking is um like the fastest way to become very wealthy. Uh, consulting is a slower path to become wealthy, but you have more time helping people and have more impact with clients, which is what I preferred. And that was a natural calling to me. And the best management consulting firm was McKinsey. So everybody wanted to work with McKenzie, so that's where I wanted to work, and that's where I went to work.

Corie 32:45

Yeah, you say these things so matter of fact, because when I was, I always remember being in a financial accounting lecture in Yui. This bachelor's, right? And there was an Indian lecturer, came from India, older guy, very, very bright. Like, you know, these kind of lecturers who just prattle off everything, no book, no nothing, just explains everything. And I'm very dauntled, no sort of high talk. And I always remember him saying one day I was having lunch with Modigliani. I'll never forget that. I and I I felt like you know, the people you're reading in these books, I don't know that the real people know it does not connect for me.

SPEAKER_07 33:16

Yeah, yeah.

Corie 33:17

And I felt that that way the first time I see we have a Trinidad in McKenzie because when you hear some mess, all these different frameworks and learning management, but I never really thought McKinsey was a real place, right? So it was just any textbook and them kind of thing. So where's the audacity coming from to decide that you're going to find yourself in them places? And what went away again?

SPEAKER_03 33:34

Well, you it there's an interview process, and does no one of them know somebody like the other one? Pure meritocracy. That's one thing I love about McKinsey is a pure meritocracy. You're going in on your merit. And um, well, if it's merit, then I I show enough. So, yeah, you talk to the consultants, you talk to people who have been there before. There are a number of African-American uh consultants who are there, they kind of tell you the ropes and what they're gonna ask you, the kind of case interviews they do. You practice the case interviews, and you know, then you present yourself as someone with values, someone who's got an ambition to make a difference, someone who wants to have impact in the world, someone who cares about their region, wants to someday be able to help, you know, the Caribbean region. Um and they love that at McKinsey. Many Caribbean people there when you went? No, not a lot at all.

Corie 34:23

More now, but still, still we're in still in the minority. Yeah, of course, of course. And what's your experience like working there? Because it had to be fast space, that'd be a I loved it. Yeah.

From Command-And-Control To Service

SPEAKER_03 34:32

Oh, I loved it. I loved it, loved it, loved it, loved it, loved it. Because it is fast space, you're working on hard problems. The other thing is that I remember when I was gonna leave Bell Labs to um go to Harvard Business School. My boss's boss um told me, why am I gonna do that? Stay here. You're gonna get promoted soon to be a uh uh whatever it is, a DMTS or district manager or something of the sort. And um, you look at me, I'm I I uh the MBA has not helped me. I'm you don't need it, you don't need an MBA. So when I graduated from Harvard Business School two years later, and I was a consultant on a project, right? I'm now like an lowly associate, right? But we're now dealing with his bosses, but but that guy's boss's boss, right? Right. And like he comes, he comes to meeting, and I am there, he's there, and he's like a low guy down on the totem pole in this conversation. Now, I'm no big shot, but at this, yeah, we kind of like two away slow down on the totem pole. And I just went and did an NBA for two years, and my trajectory is like that. And so you start to realize that it is like an escalator to the same thing you said uh about sort of being in a place and in a conversation with people that you would never believed in your life that you could be in the same room, and um, you know, it was it's just a fantastic experience. You get challenged, you work hard, um, you get rewarded, you get real tough feedback, and it's an up-how out system. And one in six people become a partner, and you know, again, another half of those will go on to become a senior partner at McKinsey. And yeah, it's it's it's a true, true, true meritocracy that's based on uh your performance and the impact that you can have with clients.

Corie 36:19

So you were one of those one in six?

SPEAKER_03 36:21

Yeah, I was, yeah. Yeah, but then I then I left her come up, come home.

Corie 36:26

Yeah, this is what we know understanding. Because if they make me one of them one in six, they go become McKinsey Shepherd Bob, they go, I'll put my name somewhere in there. I'll stay there. So, as much as you enjoy, I heard Maxine Williams say something you just said as well. She said um, she enjoys being in spaces where she's solving the difficult problems, you see, you're seeking them out. Yeah, so you're enjoying that, and you're there, well, why why come back? Yeah, but not that we don't have difficult problems here for you to come and solve.

Conscious Capitalism As Operating System

SPEAKER_03 36:50

Yeah. So um, my journey in McKinsey took me from Boston office as a summer associate to the New Jersey office as an associate to the Miami office as a senior manager, and where I became a partner to joining the Caracas office. Now, I've always wanted to, in my life, kind of have a purpose that was around having impact down here. And I took this um more challenging journey at McKinsey to say that I wanted to bring McKinsey to the Caribbean. And I felt that if someone like me didn't do it, it would never be done. And we have challenges and we have big problems to solve that, you know, I find it almost unfair that we don't get to have the opportunity to bring in firms like McKinsey and Company to assist us with. So I made that my mission. It's a much smaller market, they can scarcely afford McKinsey fees. And so I feel like almost painted myself into a box of really, really difficult to succeed as a partner, right? And um, you know, I had to definitely expand from just the English-speaking Caribbean because it was doing a lot of work in the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, um, but in some in Jamaica, a little bit in Barbados, a little bit in Trinidad at the same time, and uh was the guy who was able to establish McKinsey in the Caribbean. Um and so what I'm saying about that now is why did I then choose to leave McKinsey? So one day um it's Christmas, and they shut down the office for two weeks. I'm lying in my bed, literally, and um um you know, reading this book on servant leadership, and my son walks past me and he says, Dad, what are you reading? He looks at the book, so he must have been six. He said, Why do you want to be a servant? You know, and and I said, Oh, what a question, right? And so, you know, I mean, I ain't difficult to explain to him servant leadership at six. But that Christmas, my daughter turned 10, and I realized that with all the flying I was doing with McKinsey, I would not be able to help her with her homework. See, I'd miss things with her, and I really felt that I wanted to have more direct impact. I had some clients in Trinidad, I wanted to have more direct impact in Trinidad and the Caribbean. And I felt, you know, McKinse has a bunch of partners, a bunch of senior partners. And I was now at this cusp of like in the window for election to senior partner. You had to really work yourself like a and once you make it as a senior partner, you've you're set you're kind of locked in for at least another six years. Okay. And I felt that I would not want to be locked in. I didn't think that McKinsey needed me as much as I had a contribution to make to your daughter. So I left. And that's how I ended up joining Massey. Neil and Massey at the time.

Corie 39:56

Right, Neil and Massey, yeah. People, I would know if people remember. You make people forget about you and you contribute to people forget. Good. Job job done then. So from back home, I was writing to Massey. What was your first job you you took there?

SPEAKER_03 40:11

I ran the energy and industrial gas business unit.

Corie 40:13

Oh, I see. So it's still up your alley, still still your both, both, both areas of study and all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel as though even when I looked at Harvard and I looked at a pen, Massey was one of those, like people may not remember when you went to Neil and Massey. My first experience with Neil and Massey again in school was they had taken us fast. We used to have this computer camp during the vacation, and they had taken us to see a mainframe computer. Remember this? I think it was if I remember right, somewhere wrong about Plaza or something. I can't remember where the building was. And it was this huge thing, and it explains what computing is and that kind of. And I feel like it was my first time getting a sense for how big the company is. Right. You know, because back then, people know when they hear Massey, they think conglomerate. Back then, when you're and Massey, you might think car or you know, you don't know it was it wasn't all one thing. No, it wasn't. Yeah, so I remember that experience then, but I do also remember Nilan Massey being a place that has been around a long time. It's another place where a young black professional was not. I heard you say in an interview that your father might never get a job there. That's correct. Yeah, that is correct. So why you you like these problems?

Strategy To Reality: The Massey Rebrand

SPEAKER_03 41:15

Well, you know, by the time I had joined Neil and Massey, it was it had already been different. So Bernard Dulal Whiteway was the CEO of Massey, Neela Massey at the time. Right. And uh I got to know him through trying to consult to Neela Massey with McKinsey, and Bernard was a black man as well. So um they had crossed that threshold by the time I had by the time I showed up. Right. Um, but Neela Massey had this top-dong colonial culture that was ingrained from the beginning. Now I think it was always a benevolent kind of dictatorship. They didn't have a reputation for for for at a macro level treating people well and treating people fairly in terms of of their benefits and stuff like that. But when I got there and I saw how people would buff people and people would speak to people and the privileges that executives had distinct from staff, I was like, oh boy, you know, this does feel a little um, you know, and certainly coming from the states where it was it was it it was it was not like that, at least not in not in the consulting environment I had spent time. Um, you know, I thought there was some work for us to do with the culture within the organization to bring it, I think, more into the you know, a modern uh uh uh organization for or an organization of the size and expanse and potential that Neil Amasse had at the time.

Corie 42:47

Yeah, so I'm sure you had offerers on the table, you could have go and work anywhere you wanted to work. So you didn't go in there without intentionally, you went in there, you saw that, and you decided that there's something that you could lend to the environment?

SPEAKER_03 42:56

Yeah, so I mean, when I when I was made the decision to leave McKinsey, I then, you know, there were a lot of people that I had conversations with and a lot of places where I could have had, no, there was interest expressed. And so it really came down to where you felt the chemistry was best and where you felt like um you could have the kind of impact that someone like me would be hoping to, you know, be a part of at some point in time. Yeah.

Corie 43:25

Everybody who talks about you talks about your leadership, your presence. You know, you walk into the rooms we see today, you know, you walk into the rooms and it changes. You're going in there with that at that point in time, just being in one division in Marseille, or you're anticipating rising as fast as you do.

SPEAKER_03 43:40

So, Corey, I love people. And I, as you know, by now like challenges, have high ambitions and aspirations, and I I do believe that we can do sensational things, and so just first of all. If I come anywhere and I want to know the people who are there, I want to greet them and um have an expression of relationship as part of what gets established. So I will often say hello to everybody as I come in a room, and that's just that's just how I was I grew up and was programmed. Um and then yeah, uh the way that I will kind of ask questions and make suggestions will be ambitious and would be calling for greatness that we may not have been able to express for ourselves before and um doing so with a belief that we can. And so I think that that's what kind of people know about me. Um and uh yeah, I've I've enjoyed that that um process in life of connecting with people and collectively aspiring to achieve great things, working together in ways that have us buck up against failures and assist one another and have success that is born out of hard work and teamwork. So, yeah.

Corie 45:14

So wouldn't they long before they identify that you had to put this man in charge of the whole thing? What was the progression inside Massey Leg?

Exiting Hotels And Hard Calls

SPEAKER_03 45:24

So Bernardulal Whiteway, when he hired me, did let me know that I could be a potential successor to him. Uh, he had uh on the team a number of other professionals who I wouldn't be the professional I am today without their help and mentorship. So Kelvin Mutu and Joe T Sherry, in particular, were two bombastic leaders at Massey, executive directors, who saw in me something that they felt was good potential for the group, and they invested in me heavily. So every Friday afternoon, I would go meet them at Cosmos. Cosmos was a club down on Edward Street, right? Remember any of these? And um they would tell me quite pointedly and directly all the ways I was screwing up what an asshole and idiot I am.

SPEAKER_07 46:27

But over drinks, yeah, that's the nibbler like it.

SPEAKER_03 46:33

Right, and um, so I I I I gave the pause because uh Bernard was uh I mean so well loved. I mean, I Bernard Dolal White was uh just a gem of um a man. I mean, he was funny, he was bright, he was shharp, he had a great ambition. Um and he died at 63. And he died while he was in office. And so the transition um in terms of taking over from Bernard was like Bernard retired, yeah, a retirement party. He got the watch, and the team said, Okay, Gervaise is it. You know, it was it was it it was awkward. We had just acquired Barbados Shipping and Trading, BST. It was a big challenge for us. The whole acquisition process was uh was was was hugely stressful on Bernard personally. I think it's part of the reason why he missed a really critical medical which would have detected that he had prostate cancer, which if he had caught it earlier enough, it would not have gone to his his lymphatic system. And he'd probably still be with us today. Uh so yeah, it's not a it's not such a uh joyful topic. Um uh because when I did take over, it was because Bernard had passed. It was a difficult time for the group because you're losing this, I mean, leader who everybody just loved and respected, and he had been at Massey for over 35 years. Everybody knew him, business community knew him, who's this young kid. He's just been in the group for five years. Right, and um, you know, this leadership team, everybody on the leadership team was older than I was. Maybe the CFO was my age. Um and so, you know, now kind of building that respect and trust with the other members of the team and having us say, okay, yeah, we sad, but we have work to do and things to accomplish, etc. You know, then now being the CEO and my two mentors still in the organization and now asking them to help in different ways.

Corie 48:42

No, you could carry them cosmos and cuss them back.

SPEAKER_03 48:44

No, no, no, no, no. I mean, no, I mean, there were exchanges, don't get me wrong.

SPEAKER_02 48:51

But it wasn't like that. I would just call it um disagreements.

SPEAKER_07 48:59

I mean, we can agree to disagree.

Profit As Score, Inputs As Game

SPEAKER_03 49:05

But um, no, I have a lot of love for the team that Bernard had uh in place. We did amazing and great things together. Um, we started this journey of transformation, of sort of moving from being this top-down command and control driven culture to being one that is um, you know, really trusting and empowering and uh trying to give leaders more space and responsibility to serve the people who report to them as opposed to be their boss. So, as the as the leader, you have this great responsibility for the careers and lives of the people who are in your charge. And your job is to make them greater and better. They will make you much more successful because you have supported them in that form and fashion. And that's not an easy change to make when you know you've got 80 years of history of top-down.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

You finally get to be the boss. Well, yeah, no, I get the booth.

SPEAKER_04 50:11

It's my turn. I in charge. I get to give a shotgun. Yeah, let's be known. And you you come along after 20 years, I take and you now want to tell me that no, no, no, it's not my turn to get things you read this of a leadership book, you get to apply.

Corie 50:33

So at that stage, you're in charge of the group at that point, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I talk a lot about conscious capitalism, two things that don't work well together at all.

SPEAKER_03 50:40

Yeah, absolutely.

Corie 50:41

But um, even at that time, I suppose you had a lot of um a lot of that there. Like, people talk about some of the changes that you made, like the physical environment. I was hearing somebody in Massey saying, Boy, this man sort of tear down walls, make the place open, that kind of thing. So, so all along the lines of of what you're talking about leadership.

SPEAKER_03 50:57

Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. Conscious capitalism was a book I read in 2013 that changed everything because I had these beliefs in my kind of gut. And then I read a book that said, Hey, you follow this set of principles, and quite frankly, you build more resilient, more successful, faster growing, more and you know, places that people enjoy working in, uh, that are more purposeful and fulfilling. And I was like, okay, great, we have the recipe. So the team got together and we started implementing the principles of conscious capitalism. And you know, the biggest challenge was ourselves becoming conscious leaders. I suppose. I suppose and you had buy-in why though? Well, yeah, it took a while. It took a while. It took a while, but you know, what was helpful is that there's a lot of examples of companies who have been extremely successful following these principles and comparing them to uh their peers and demonstrating that they grow faster, that they're more profitable, that they have better employee retention, better customer satisfaction, they're safer places to work, etc. etc. So yeah.

Corie 52:03

Well, if it's one thing we know from Tirteen, you're convinced, huh? Because you convince these people to stay in form 4. They're not. So you know we know it worked. Yeah, it's a failure helps. That's right. Yes, it's just part of it. That's part of it. Yes. Yes. That that move, I remember going to work one morning and Vincent James and going south and driving to work one morning and see Massey everywhere. That's when you know them fellas and really in the country. Force for a good kind of thing for real. What was it lead up to that? It was just simplifying the business. What was it what was leading to the choice to do?

White Light Training: Intent And Backlash

SPEAKER_03 52:32

So we had done some strategy work in um it was 2011, 2012, rebranding, no, 20, 2013. Because rebranding happened in 2014 with McKinsey. And uh, we had this great strategy. We had recognized that the group had these businesses that had connectivity to one another. Like they had multiple distribution businesses in Guyana, Jamaica, Barbados, in um uh uh the US, and they all had like different names and weren't connected. They were trying to get common principles like Nestle or uh Procten Gamble to work with them, but they weren't successful. Uh you had the car business, and we had an insurance business. The insurance business was in Barbados, it wasn't insuring cars in Trinidad. We had um, you know, all these customers who bought cars with us and shopped for groceries with us, and there's a car financing business as well, and none of these businesses were really working together. So, part of the strategy that we had, we defined these ecosystems where we could bundle offers and get companies to work together. But but when we were finished with the strategy, we really caught our ass to implement it. I mean, the companies did not identify with Massey or the group, they identified with the company. So MD in Trinidad was marketing and distribution very different from SBI and Barbados, and everywhere the supermarkets had different names, and you know, the ability to get people to collaborate with one another was very difficult.

Corie 54:20

And if it was, I think in Trinidad only, you have to you have to find a way to bring these people, everybody in distribution knows how to work together.

SPEAKER_03 54:26

I see, yeah, I see. So you say, you know, we we really need to do something. We need to find a way to bring us all under a common umbrella. Right. Meanwhile, we were doing the work with conscious capitalism on purpose and values, and so it all came together with listen, let's, let's, let's bring an expression of who there's a common thing that's running throughout all of our let's bring as opposed to having that in the back, let's bring Rack to the foreground. You know, being a force for good, being a company that that that truly values people. So say we say we love and care. Love, nobody uses love, no, we that's a value, you know, growth and continuous improvement and all the values that we have today were articulated as part of the um uh uh rebranding process. And uh once we rebranded with this powerful um, you know, almost manifesto about who we stood for, for customers in the Caribbean and our people and our contribution and the values we bring, you know, it like elevated everybody in the group. And um, that day that you saw everything just change overnight. Well, that was July 1st, sometime in March, March 14th or something. We had a big retreat in Barbados, and it was like 200 people from across the group. And we resented the new brand and what it stood for. And we did actually have uh an exercise on the common values, and that was something that we all said, okay, we all aligned on that. And then we had to go back and now, okay, we're gonna go and we have agreed we're gonna implement this. How do we implement this? There's so many things we have to do from signage to uniforms to uh stationeries, company names. I mean, just changing company names, we had to register new brands in new in in in different jurisdictions. Um I mean, how could we do this in a way that was impactful? Um, we decided that we would uh take this bold, courageous move to tell all our employees about this secret. So if you want to keep something secret, right? Tell everybody, the last thing you would do is go and tell 10,000 people, right?

Corie 56:45

Of course.

SPEAKER_03 56:48

But there was no way we could execute all the things we had to execute with some centralized team. We had to have the companies do it. So we went on this road. So I wrote a memo to all staff, and then we went on this road show. We made these presentations, and it was a big deal because we were undertaking to share a secret with our employees, our 10,000 employees. So this is a breakthrough, right? Because we were now saying we trust you, and with something big. I mean, it's commercially gigantic. And you didn't know because for the most part, our 10,000 employees did keep this secret and it built a level of trust between leadership and the organization and kind of commitment to this common thing that we were coming out with.

SPEAKER_05 57:37

So when Massey was launched, oh my God, the fever of the employees in the organization that we pull this off, and their neighbors are telling them, Oh my god, we know your partner tells me, oh my god, because everywhere, Massey everywhere. I didn't know that the supermarket was connected to the caterpillar dealership. Oh my god, everywhere passion, what's going on? Right?

SPEAKER_03 58:03

And that was because of our people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was because of of the employees in the organization because you a lot of work had to be done. Those signs had to be hung, buildings had to be painted, and they were covered, they were covered for weeks before the unveiling.

Accountability, Resignation, And Healing

SPEAKER_05 58:19

Oh, yeah, really? I thought it was in there before.

Corie 58:22

I thought I saw the one on a they would go up in the night and then put a veil on top of it. I remember seeing the one my nail code on close to skin back. Yes. And when I saw the Massey sign, it really don't have weights. When I passed it yesterday, I was coming up the one in Mova, that big massive thing. Oh, yeah, or catapuloniaway. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, you talk like I had a strategy class or something like that, and I was using Massey then as an example of conglomerate, you know, business divisions and all that, right? And we had gone to look at the mission and vision and core values in Massey. And it was one of the first places I see, not just locally, but anywhere, where like you say, with like love and so on, we used, you know, like more emotive, emotional things. But branding is an emotional thing too.

SPEAKER_03 59:03

Absolutely, 100%.

Corie 59:04

Let me ask you about Hilo in particular, though. How difficult is that decision with people in Hilo and with the not just the employees, but the public? The public had love hilo. Isn't that one thing I had that was Hilo? People still refuse, it's the same mastery nowadays. That's what they're going by Hilo. Hey, I'm of the age to do that.

SPEAKER_03 59:22

So um, we also had supermarkets in St. Lucia, Barb and Barbados, and everywhere people had a similar attachment. And every time we had a conversation separately about before the rebranding, it was there was just no way. That was like third rail, more than sacred cow. Screw you, we're not doing that, right? So the rebranding created across the group. This is now an imperative. So, for example, we um kept super center in our, but now it's everywhere has a super center, and we use those for these large stores that are grocery and home stores included, right? So that was a way to keep that name um alive. Uh Hilo, but I remember people uh had there was a there was a particular um Facebook post with somebody a hilo bag blowing in the savannah and all this sadness about you know the departure from the Hilo name. And um, you know, all this did is just helped us with this rebranding of Massey because the whole emotion associated with what you love, and you know, there are some people could say they've ex, but they know Massey name even better.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:43

Hilo cups, people have that they're like mementos now, yeah. No, absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:49

I went down the islands, I fell out of Hilo Cup, a high-look coffee cup boy. I was like, that worth something now.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:56

They could put that on eBay and make money.

Ancestral Memory And Ghana’s Castles

Corie 1:01:00

They should have a little massive museum where we could come and see the come and see the things that led us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So at that point in time, uh, from the investor standpoint, uh, at some point in time, everybody happy because everybody could see what it is. Well, I saw um and maybe you're behind a lot of these decisions or having to implement them, whereas it's it's not just rebranding, but there was a certain amount of reorganizing. Some businesses went. Are you talking about being on Sandal's board before you started? And hoteling was was a part of the business for the group when you got there. That's no longer you came out of that completely.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:33

Yeah, so we ended up in hotels because Massey, in its sort of at head office investments, had owned like 5% of Almon Resorts, and BST had owned 46% or so. So when we acquired BST, Almond Resorts was a publicly traded company in Barbados. So when Massey acquired, well, Neela Massey at the time acquired uh BST in Barbados, all of a sudden the combination owned 51% of Almond Resorts, and we were now the majority. And all of Almond's resorts results got passed through Neila Massey results, like any subsidiary. And this acquisition was done um in 2008, February, September 2008, you had the financial and global crisis. People stopped taking uh vacations, Ammon Resorts performance plummeted. They had invested in some hotels and taken on huge debt. They had two great properties that they had starved for investment, and so the properties were needed, needed money. So now Massey, having just done this acquisition of BSNT, now finding itself near La Massey's time, having to put capital into these hotels to just keep it at a minimum standard while um average daily rates are dropping, while occupancy is dropping. It was just, it was just a horrible, horrible time for us. We are not hoteliers. We don't, we don't have a big and mammon resorts, didn't have a big marketing um brand like Sandals does, and machine like it does. So uh yeah, at some point in time we've said this is no, this is gonna take down the group. We gotta get out of this thing. We gotta take the take the hit. And so we said, okay, we're gonna we're gonna come out of this business, and we shut down um a couple of the major hotels. Uh, we sold others um that at least could limp along, like Casarina limped along for a while until we could sell it. Sanders bought um Caserina and Barbados, they bought Beach Village. Well, they bought eventually they bought the Beach Village property in Bar. And that's how I come I came to know But Stewart through the negotiation and the sales of these um uh properties.

Corie 1:03:53

Yeah, gotcha, gotcha. Because when I hear you talk about conscious capitalism, I always wonder how difficult these decisions are. Because with our publicly traded company, at some point shareholders go well, it's a profit, regardless of what happened internally in the company.

Automatic Reactions And Inner Work

SPEAKER_03 1:04:05

Yeah, so this uh uh Corey, I'm really happy you brought this up, right? Because uh you mentioned conscious capitalism sounds like a bit of an oxymoron, right? Because capitalism has become to be assumed with something that is unconscious, the pursuit of profit maximization for the purpose of returns to shareholders only. And um anything else is uh extraneous and and and um actually not valid. Uh so uh we think that capitalism has gotten a bad name. By the way, I'm uh also on the board of conscious capitalism incorporated now. So I mean I leaned into it pretty pretty heavily. I I do think it it if we could have more companies actually start to follow those principles, whether they call it responsible capitalism, responsible enterprise, or conscious capitalism, whatever they call it, I think the world would be a much better place and uh companies would be more successful because it's it's very simple that says you treat employees well, they treat your customers well. You do well with the society who was around you, you build a better brand and you build a better um uh connection to customers and the society around you. When that happens, people give you the benefit of the doubt for honest mistakes. People give you reward you with loyalty, they reward you with better margins, lower advertising and marketing costs. What you can do with that is you can pay your cut your employees even better, give them better incentives to reward them for when uh they have delighted customers. Your customers are delightful, it's a it's like a virtuous circle. And then what happens after that? You start spinning off money. And that money can then be used to reward shareholders better, they can be used to do more good in the world, and the cycle continues and continues and continues. Um until it's broken by some force that says, you know, I don't believe we could do this, I think we could squeeze this hit. Here, we could dial back on this here, and we could still get more profit, right? And when you start to sacrifice the stakeholders in the process that are driving this successfully, you start to lose the power of the virtual cycle.

Corie 1:06:12

Yeah, with you. There's a course that doesn't actually know an MBA course, and uh the name of the course now is uh social entrepreneurship. So it's very much aligned to what you're talking about. Big, big discussion now. Yeah, because when I went business 101, they said a business is to make profit. You couldn't say anything else to the answer, for example. Absolutely. I just changed drastically in terms of the way people look at business now. It doesn't change sufficiently. No. So I didn't interview that I think he's the author of the book, uh Conscious Capitalist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was interesting. You said something really interesting there when you said outside of profit and all those things. Because I tuning into that trying to hear you say, all right, how are we finding this balance? And you said that stress factor on individuals who run or work in these organizations that are profit-driven. I I don't know how you account for it.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:00

You know, it's an amazing thing. I spent a lot of my career being profit driven, even though I would try not to be and say not to be. And I think that like in 2018, as late as that, I I finally got to the point of you know, just screw it. Either you're doing this or you're not doing it. And um I stopped worrying about profit. I I focused on the inputs, focused on what we were doing with our people, focused on having good strategy. Because by the way, when we were starting to divest these companies, and even back when we were having the trouble with um, you know, B S T acquisition, if you don't have a good business model, your ability to really practice conscious capitalism is completely undermined. You need to have a good, solid business that can win in the industry and the space that you're in. If you're a fledgling enterprise, you have no business trying to, you know, be aspiring to be great with people and one, you know, it you want to be able to get there, but you have to have you have to be a competitive, you have to have a good strategy, you have to have a good product, you have to have excellent service, etc., etc. And if you don't, and you don't have the scale, you don't have the technology, um, you don't have the culture, it probably is something that belongs with a different owner. Okay. Yeah. So that's a really important key part of the discipline of it. And that's when Massey in 2018 began this journey of divesting things that we weren't really the best owners of and redeploying that capital into the industries, we really felt we had, you know, a privileged position in terms of being able to do well and succeed. And so that's really, really important in this model to make sure you've got a good business model and good strategy.

Corie 1:08:47

Of course, yeah, your competitors come into ETLI anyway, regardless of what you practice at.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:52

Absolutely, absolutely. But I found I found Corey that when I stopped worrying about profit and like every month, what did we do and what could we have done different of you know, who missed targets, et cetera, et cetera. Um, and instead really try to spend more time being kind of wind under the wings of leaders, trying to help them with strategies and promoting growth and having conversations with others to get better ideas and how we could do differently and spend more time doing that. By the end of the month, the performance numbers were better, right? So less I worried and the more I focused on the inputs, the better we did as a group. And I would think I would I would say that from 2018 to 2023, we had you know five of some like uh best years. Yeah.

Fitness, Endurance, And Stress Relief

Corie 1:09:43

I've had to argue with that. We said you said that um looking at our profits is like watching the score and you know, focusing on playing a game. You know, when you say that, you make me realize I had a foreman um cricket coach. That man used to tell me, stop studying how much runs you make, study the ball that coming at you, study the runs. It's exactly the same principle.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:00

Yeah, it's exactly the same principle. Now, the score is important, but it's a reflection of it's a reflection of the shot you played. It's a reflection of your ability to focus on the right things in this moment of now. Now, if you in this moment of now studying the score as opposed to what's in front of you, your wicked Google take.

Corie 1:10:22

Of course, yeah, it's a distraction at the end of the day. So we learn, we learn from it, right? We learn that you've got to be. Not easy to do, though. No, of course, of course. Not easy to do. Of course. Well, we saw we saw when I see news about you, it's typically to say how great you are. We learned some of that today because I tell myself, all right, when I talked to you today, if you tell me go Harvard, I'll go in. If I could get in. If you tell me go pen, I'll go in. And if you tell me go Fort Myers, I go in. So we saw we saw these stories and things about white light training and that kind of thing. Is it as exciting as pen and Harvard and them kind of thing? What what what was the was the real story from you? Yeah, okay, so let's go there.

Regional Impact: Boards And CARICOM

SPEAKER_03 1:10:56

Uh is this white light distracting? No, no, let's go there. Let's let's let's let's go there. Um so the process of leadership transformation is deeply personal and always difficult because leadership transformation requires you to look at things that you know limit you, things that uh hold you back from being the type of leader that you might aspire to be. And usually requires you to look into your life, back at your life, sometimes at traumas, usually at things that were defining moments in your life where you made decisions that you carry forward with you to this day. You know, so you know, there they're there ways that we all react to situations that trigger us, or ways that we have to win in life that we formulated when we were very young. You know, it's what allowed us to survive, it's what allowed us to win. And um even though we've won that game and we no longer need to, we still continue to have that type of that type of behavior. Sure. Some of it is competitive and and and being aggressive. Um, some of it is um, quite frankly, not speaking up, being quiet, um uh and uh running away, you know, because and and that's a way to protect yourself. And so uh we at Massey, our leadership team, from the time I became the CEO, were involved in several different leadership and transformation programs with a number of different institutions. And this particular program was a program that was to help us bring more of who we are naturally, uh our centered self into the way that we interacted with one another and the way that we interact with the world. And so, you know, if you're hooked by something, you have a reaction that isn't truly what your centered quiet self would suggest you should do. Um if you have a uh way of being that is is is one where you know you you've been driven to dominate because that has worked for you. Um, there are situations where it doesn't work that you know you don't you're not even cognizant that it doesn't work and the cost of it because in your life you it's got you to where you were, and you know, it's not a behavior you're necessarily desirous of losing because you're afraid that you may not succeed. And so from a centered position, you can actually see and debunk that uh thought that hey, if I were to be able to have some more control of that, because by the way, none of these behaviors ever leave you. It's not like they become inaccessible, right? They're always right there.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:10

If you really feel you need to employ them, they're there, right?

Boys To Men: Rites Of Passage

SPEAKER_03 1:14:13

Nobody's asking you to lose them. And some conscious and some you don't lose them. Absolutely. So, so uh the program that we were uh working with with the folks out of Fort Myers was all centered around being able to connect deeply with your soul, or call it your spirit, call it um, you know, whatever you want, your Atma, whatever you want to call it. Because it was it was absolutely um uh agnostic to religion, but it's sort of on this universal principle that there's something higher that we feel, and uh we have an experience of the energy of people um and the energy of situations. And if you can read that and you could be conscious of the energy that you're generating in any moment, you could actually be more effective with people with circumstances. And um many of us use this training to uh have better connections among one another and with our customers and with our organizations. And if I'm speaking to a large group of people at Massey, I'm you know very cognizant of what energy I'm creating in the room and what I'm trying to generate. So that was very, very, very, very helpful for us, particularly during times of COVID and beyond, we actually started to distinguish certain energies that we felt were useful for us to um uh generate as a group, like an energy of abundance. Because you know, energies of scarcity have you behave in ways that says, I need to be selfish, I need to be worried, I need to be fearful. Um, and and when you think of the world of that there's abundance around you, there's a generosity, there's a confidence that you have, um uh an energy of all as well. So the world could be falling apart like it is right now in so many different ways. But if you can be calm, you could not necessarily be reactive to situations, uh, but you could find a centered way to respond. Uh, it it's it's a lot more appropriate. So, Corey, this was um uh uh, I think a really successful um part of the training that we did. I think that um, and you know, talk about my my Camino and my realization. I think that there were places where people started to believe that um it was the only way to succeed at Massey. Uh, and that was one of the allegations that this this lady had against us. Um, I think it's absolutely untrue. Uh, but but I I could see where, you know, one of the things I got in my uh Camino journey is um there's a place of overconfidence and um uh yeah, I'll leave it as overconfidence. If you want to call it a day, tier word arrogance, you get about things where you you you kind of immune yourself to criticism. Right. And I could see that there are places where there were concerns that we could have addressed that I did not uh address sufficiently.

Corie 1:17:21

Um so you had concerns from people who were asked to go to the training. It was it was there were people who were resistant to it and that kind of thing. Yeah.

Gratitude, Examples, And Closing

SPEAKER_03 1:17:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it it's not the majority case, but there were cases that that that that arose. And um, I haven't I haven't seen a leadership program that uh you know really as transformational that everybody says is really great. I've not met one, right? Uh because by their nature, they're supposed to disrupt something and take you to places that are uncomfortable. Some do it in different ways, some do it in in in I think very confrontational ways. Some people love it, some people really don't like that they do it, some do it in in, I think in this case, it was more deeply spiritual, trying to have you connect somewhere. That's deeply uncomfortable for some people. Um others get great value out of it. But I think that if you're aspiring to transform a culture and you're aspiring to transform leaders, you will always run the risk that you will introduce people to things that uh take them into a zone of discomfort. Um, I I see some I see some leaders that do this in very blunt, what I would think as unconscious ways. So I've just listened, I just read Elon Musk's biography um written by Walter Isaacson. And you know, every company that he's in, he has a culture of all in hardcore. And if you're not all in hardcore, you're out, right? And so he basically weans people out who can't take that type of heat. So, you know, he has no concern for diversity or inclusion. He wants all in hardcore, and that's what he wants, and that's what he selects for. Um, so you would have a lot of people coming out of SpaceX, Tesla, whatever company who would say, you know, that was a really horrible working experience, and I didn't like it, and I didn't like what they did and how they treated people and that sort of stuff. But then he has, you know, the level of success that he's had in all these companies, and you're just talking about merging SpaceX with X XAI to create the world's largest company and that sort of stuff.

Corie 1:19:50

So um I suppose if you talk to enough people there too, you'll find the hardcore people love it. They're the environmental thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:57

I would tell you, as an engineer graduating from Penn, I would love to have worked in a hardcore overland culture.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:06

That was that was for me. You know, I wanted that job. I figured, you know, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:10

But what I'm saying, Corey, is that you know, you'll never you'll never um get to a point where if you really are pursuing something that's hugely transformational, that you're gonna be in some glad, happy everybody's gonna be okay. And um, you know, to be honest, I was having a conversation with the same person about you know, it's clearly not working for you, it's not working for for us, you know. Let's kind of find a nice way to, you know, separate. And I think that that is where the upset came from. And that's where the kind of whole explosion of of what happened happened from. And yeah, I could reflect and say that there's definitely things that I could have done, should have done differently in the way that I uh also managed uh through it. It's part of my uh Camino journey. Um was the was the program a useful program and did it have great transformational effects for many leaders? Absolutely. Were there some who were uncomfortable with it? Yes, certainly. But I think that any leadership program that you put people into that will make a transformational difference will have exactly that. Some that were loved it and of course thought some other grades, and some who were made uncomfortable with it, but still recognize the benefit. And then some for whom you know the program was just really not for them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think this was a classic example. This was not for that particular.

Corie 1:21:31

Yeah, I suppose the benefit is exposing people to many different things. I suppose somebody will find itself there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they only talk to the dead and true. I'm a holand says she has some money burying St. James was talking to the dead and thinker. If you could, if I could get on the screen.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:42

No, I mean, again, this is this is a really good example. And thank you for this this space, right? So I mean, so to me, that was such a ludicrous accusation that uh I didn't even take seriously needing to defend it. I mean, it's it's so ludicrous. Like, okay, that's how we run the group. We go and we consult with dead people and they tell us how to run the group, right? Like I mean, I I I you know, uh, but oh god, Trine's loved it, right? It loved it, loved it. All kinds of memes and stuff about it, right? Um, so you say, well, okay, well, what was the bitter truth that was in it, right? So if you actually get a place of spiritual connection where you can start feeling energy of people, like I could feel your energy, now you could feel mine, you could be comfortable with it, or it's because you could be uncomfortable with it. You you you you you actually start to be able to perceive things, and so it is in that vein that one could actually people do have experiences of connecting with I gave a story. Um one afternoon I uh was visiting my dad, right? And um the nurse was sitting on a couch in the living room, and my dad was out on the um was out on the porch and um I just heard this music playing, and I went over to the nurse and I watched what you playing. She said, I ain't playing anything, and then I went over to my dad and I sat with him and I'm still hearing this music, right? And um my mom passed June two years ago. I take my phone out of my pocket, and my phone is playing the video from my mother's funeral, right? And uh I am now able to like share it with my dad, and he and I have a nice little cry and a moment of talking about my mom. And um I kind of like really felt my mom there, right? And I'm open to an experience like that. And um, particularly having been trained to be connected with energy, and it was just a it was just a wonderful, gorgeous moment. So it is in that spirit that yes, the work from the program can help you access the feelings or energies of people who were close to you in your past that have nothing to do with running Massey, but it's an experience that you could feel for yourself, right? So that's the kind of angle of truth that there is to it. But uh, say that the course is teaching us to talk to dead people so that what we could run the group by talking to. I mean, come on. I mean, you know, and so um again, Corey, uh, you know, I could be responsible for um my own knee-jerk reaction, which is you know, like a like a level of confidence and call it arrogance, that people see that this is bullshit. Um uh but people didn't. I went and paid them. And uh and and and and so uh I think that there's ways that I could have managed the process, even in the conversations with her that led up to the upset and what then happened thereafter differently, um and would have left Massey as a group of companies less exposed to ridicule. True. Um and you know, and and that's why Corey, I said to my board, I said to the chairman and the head of the governance committee, look, if at any point in time the group, the board thinks that it would be better for me to, you know, step aside, I'll step aside, right? Because yeah, I think that at the center of it, I was the person who recruited this person. I was the person who started having the conversation, I was the person who encouraged this person to engage in the leadership training, really out of a commitment to her and her own growth and development. And um it it the powder keg blew up in my face, right? And the group should not be hurt as a result of it. Yeah, and so that's why I had to walk across Spain for 32 days to kind of catch back yourself.

Corie 1:26:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You decided to resign. I I've seen many, many times. Retire. Retire early. Or retire early. Okay, well, that's a big difference. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Got you. I was wondering if it is any regrets, anything you would do differently because these things I would have done differently.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:28

I mean, I can't call them regrets because it's because Corey, as I explained to you, right, my life is a series of failures.

Corie 1:26:36

It's considered as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:38

Right. A series of failures or challenges overcome that have lessons and have helped me shape who I am. I don't think I would have gone on nearly a deep inward journey and um you know say it to you and be open to saying to you in this forum um what my own reflections are if I had not had the experience before. I maybe still, you know, have a this level of confidence and I call it arrogance that you know I think that it's still available.

Corie 1:27:16

Well you said so, don't disappear. You can still access it when you need it, right? That's the important part, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:27:23

But but but but but I we you know I I I can I can see that you know we all have a level of vulnerability. And if some writing some some essays about this experience and if others can um learn from this experience that they don't have to that they could they could correct earlier than I corrected, you know, great.

Corie 1:27:43

Yeah, we all benefit.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:44

Yeah.

Corie 1:27:44

Yeah. When I was reading about it, besides the back and all and thing, I don't really like that part. But I always I I was very, very curious, again, because the respect I have for you just seeing the spaces you've been in. Uh I have to say that when somebody like that stands by somebody. Something. I have to pay attention to it. Well, even if I don't believe it, if it's sound far-fetched to me, it's something that I have to at least listen. And there was something you said about it going that's going to Spain for your journey, but you also spoke about being in Ghano. And it's it's so interesting. You are not the only person I heard describe going to those castles that says what you feel when you go there. I hear people talk about it going to see Mandela, where he was helped us. That's right. And that is not Nelson Island. Nelson Island, that's right. And um those are like dramatic cases of that. You know, some of some of the worst things that ever happened. Yeah. And for many, many years until many, many people. And it's visceral. But it's not, I don't I don't feel like as somebody who when I hear spirituality in the in the workplace, I might climb up. But but I I can't doubt what you feel when you go into spaces like those. Your experience going to going to that castle. I heard you're talking about the you want to talk about that? Sure, sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:58

I mean it it it you hear about it, you read about it. There's nothing quite like the experience of being in those spaces because the the um the energy of the torture and despair and injustice of that period is is present. It's present in the smells, it's present in the dampness, it's you know, you their souls that are present in the in the room. And if you don't have to be a particularly spiritual person to feel it. And um you know, I've been doing this training, so I felt it really, really strongly, right? And I can understand. It gave me a much deeper understanding of what people of African descent have kind of in their DNA, and and the fact that you know, there's never been a real global reckoning for this, you know, mid-passage um period that lasted like 400 years. And and and you you you hear about um all the things that have happened for other tortured groups, uh, but this is something that even in the United States now it there's there's like almost a refusal to acknowledge it. Yeah, or not to talk about it. Uh you ought not to yes, it's impolite to talk about to talk about it. Um and you know, all people of African con descent are taking that in some way or form or fashion with them. And it's good to understand the origins. Um because of my work at the CARICOM private sector organization, also being um had the opportunity now to liaise with the African Bank and the African Union is making this huge outreach to diaspora who and if the first step is here to the Caribbean, right? Because that's where this passage took most of us. And um it's it's it's actually there's something that feels really good about it. You know, you you you actually feel like you know, there's a connection, even though we don't have direct flights, even though we don't have direct shipping lanes, there is a deep connection. And um, you know, kudos to them for recognizing it and trying to build more economic um uh relationships with us. And I think that that will redound to our benefit in the future.

Corie 1:31:24

Yeah, yeah. I think it's something important, particularly for young black people. Yeah. Because they, I mean, we in a world where it's discussed, it's taboo, it changes over time. But for people who are born now or growing up now, where for them it might have always been taboo, it might be something that people tell you outright, forget it. That was how much years ago this keep a good little counter, how much years ago it was too. That was so long ago. And the first time I felt where you were you described, and you you talked about being on the castle floor and seeing the uh big remnants of human beings, it's it's real. I went to um African American Museum in Atlanta. Yeah, I've not been to it. I wanna go there. I'm going in May. I'm going to Atlantin now, I'm definitely going there. Listen, the first thing as you walk into the place, there's a huge, and you know, the US is very good at preserving it. Yep. So they had this Ku Klux Klan sheet on a mannequin. Huge. The man had to be seven foot tall or seven foot wide, too. And I remember we and a golf trip, it's just a partner of living in Atlanta. And we are on a golf trip. You know about it already, and we walk in. And I remember the silence when we saw just the first image of that in the international case because there was blood still on the sheet. Oh Lord. And there are these little things that you could lift up and see photos of Lynchens. Oh, Jesus. Yeah, it is it is so weird from the until we reach the part of the thing deal with 1996 Olympics. From that pole, because you see the receipts from slaves and you see our old preserved chat laws and so on.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:50

So I feel like Yeah, it's the compensation in slavery was to the slave owners for losing assets. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's beautiful.

Corie 1:32:57

That's the way to do it or not. We have to build systems like those. I saw it in DC too. When they uh Yeah, DC has another great memorial. I'm lucky enough to carry my son on them. Oh, yeah. So you could understand. That's good.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:11

That's good.

Corie 1:33:12

So I I always wondered if there was a connection between those two things because that that ancestral memory, as people might call it, and uh there's something about read that you had said, right? You can't read so well, there'll judge me in this room here. I saw when you when people asked you about it, or something I'd say, they said it's deep work to have us go in and understand where some of our automatic reactions as people come from. Yes. And I wondered about that because for me, it made me quite that statement in itself sort of make me well, the word automatic, I was thinking, all right, because I feel I'm in control of my reactions or seldom, seldom is seldom is scary, seldom is scary, yeah. And when I go back to your deaf, the way you spoke about stress, I wondered if all those things were connected together in terms of you approaching that. Approaching which one approaching doing doing the training, doing the work, not necessarily for the organization, but for yourself. Because it seems to me that you on your own spiritual journey outside of myself.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:06

You know, I I I think that um I don't know, I was 20-something years ago, I read a book called the On-Purpose Person, and uh for most of my adult life I've been doing some form of reading or coursework to improve who I am as a human being. Uh when I was just married, uh see, 93. I got married in 91. 93, we took the landmark forum right about a fight my wife and I had. No, no, no. I mean, this is so ridiculous. I don't share this story. I mean, I don't you'll decide what you're using you to do, you say. So it's a Sunday afternoon. My wife is um we're living in New Jersey. Um I think she's pregnant. I don't think you know she might we have our daughter, so our daughter's an infant, right? An infant. She cooks stew chicken, macaroni pie, fried plantain, all my favorites, you know, uh uh pigeon peas, everything. And we sit down and we have lunch, and uh it's a lovely lunch, delicious. And she says to me, Juve, wash the dishes. And like she doesn't say please.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:33

Stop laughing so hard, man. God forbid. She didn't say please. So I'm like, well, what's so hard about saying please?

SPEAKER_03 1:35:39

So I know to get the clearly table and the things clank and clank. And I I vexed.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:45

So she said, Well, what's wrong with you?

SPEAKER_03 1:35:47

I said, Well, you can't say please?

SPEAKER_04 1:35:50

She's like, I cook everything. How come you didn't say honey, let me wash?

SPEAKER_03 1:35:57

Please. So anyway, we had a big fight. And um while I was in the forum, because eventually, you know, so part of my great fortune in life is that my wife and I have grown together, right? We've done things to you know improve who we are as human beings together. So uh so this was an underlying dynamic that happened between us, and and some friend invited us to this uh graduation of the landmark forum, where you enroll ourselves in the forum, and I saw in the forum that really my mother never said please. My mother always gave us chores and told us things to do, and she never said please. And I disliked it, resented it, all of us had a problem with it, and now I was transposing that to my wife, bringing that into now my marriage, right? And that's what happens. These things just follow us, these triggers that we have from childhood follow us. And um you might and I what does that have to do with business leadership? You know, not saying please after it has everything to do with it, right? Because we are not even. Do you think I was aware that okay, it's Uma that is actually informing who I'm being in this at this at this point in time? And that's just a good concrete example I can tell a story about. But there's so many other ways in which people interact with me, remind me of something that somebody else did that that pissed me off that I have a bad reaction to. And then I bring that in the workplace. And people are like, why are you yin so overnight? It just makes no sense. We all have that.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:36

None of us are immune to that disease. We're just unaware.

Corie 1:37:43

Yeah. You don't know that you don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting. And I always with training, I tend to wonder, regardless of what is the session they send me to. I on self first before organization. I always feel if we improve ourselves, if I could just show up a little bit better in our company. I was telling you before, like we have so many. We started off my father and I in the office by itself. You know everybody, you know, every customer, you know, every that now we have employees who am I going to grocery and it's supposed to say, Hey, I work for you. You know, you don't meet any person, it's embarrassing sometimes. So I'm gotten so conscious over the years of what I show up as, what I behave like, and it's sometimes it's just hard to see.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:21

Absolutely.

Corie 1:38:21

And I guess sometimes it's sessions like those and training like that. Absolutely. And I asked about a different kind of training. This is running on things. That's what you've done with the truck since school days. You're still running on that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:31

Well, I had to stop running uh because I got a bulging disc in my um L5S3. That's why I stopped running. L5S1, L5S1. That's exactly why I stopped running. Um but no, no, no. I mean, I ran a lot of marathons a little Iron Man, so I still ride a lot. I still still cycling a lot, still swimming, still swimming, still swimming a lot. Um but you know, I still might do a little short triathlon somewhere along there.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:56

Just uh remind them that you know check them.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:04

Don't let them get that fall asleep on them. Yeah, you've been doing your fitness and thing over the years looking good.

Corie 1:39:10

Every time you see a trotting past going, something you still enjoy in the exercise.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:16

Yeah, exercise is a very, very important thing, it's always been. It's an outlet, it's it's a place where you can, you know, you get the endorphins, but also, I mean, I'm I I can tell how many times I've been upset about something that's happening typically at work or stressed, and uh, you know, you go push some weights or you take a run and you sprint on the bike, etc. etc. Or you just well, the the so swimming, like we all kind of go to Barbados a lot, mate. Swimming in like clear Tobago Barbados water is beautiful, right? And you don't want you see, yeah, he's on a pool, you're talking about it. No, no, no. That's open water swimming is beautiful.

Corie 1:39:52

No, I know I always upset about the exercise a little more. We get it, we get it. So, what looking like with plans for you? Because your retirement looks like people's whole career. Your retirement as busy as some people's careers, because you're on what boards you're on, and it's only board work that you're doing at this point, or well, I have some advisory work also do some advisory work at Sandals.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:10

Um, so Sandals is not Sandals the only board at all, on the board and doing some advisory work as well.

Corie 1:40:15

Yeah, and then uh conscious capital is me on the on the board and all helping shadow.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:20

And uh yeah, and and uh the chairman of the CARICOM private sector organization. Right, right. We have a lot of challenges um as a as a group of nations, um, a number of initiatives. We've done a lot of things around trade. You might have heard uh that the US was gonna put these um fees on Chinese-made vessels, which would affect the transportation costs, shipping costs uh for us in our small island states. We were able to work with the United States trade representative to get our carve out um for short um trips or I think it's a 10,000 nautical miles. So it covered the Caribbean, it also covered uh uh Central America. Those guys were thankful to us for making such a representation because they got the benefit of it. Uh the whole stuff with all the tariffs, we were very involved in in modeling the impact for uh CARICOM countries. We have an initiative to um roll out a regional stock exchange, uh so integrate capital markets. Um, we work on tariff issues. Yeah, so it's it's it's quite a full plate.

Corie 1:41:28

Yeah, it's not a retirement plate exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:30

No, it's it's it's it's it's good because it it really fulfills upon um this purpose I've had around having impact in the region and being uh you know part of an organization that is an interlocutor with the CARACOM heads on uh trying to truly implement the CARACOM single market and econom economy, the common single market and economy. Uh is yeah, it's it's it's fulfilling to me.

Corie 1:41:56

So that's uh you're enjoying it. Oh, for sure. And you work with Boys to Men. What is Boys to Men? What's the organization?

SPEAKER_03 1:42:01

Boys to Men was an organization that we sponsored. Ian Jeffers um is the guy who created it and leads it. Uh well, the son now is uh is I think taken over from him. But Boys to Men was a program that we ran a lot in when I was at Massey, and it's uh eight-week program or eight sessions where we take uh young men through the rituals of what it takes to be a man, and there are different sessions like um uh uh body, mind, and spirit, um hustler to businessman, different teaching you different, teaching young men different. Hustle is a businessman like that. Yeah, you know, um, you know what it means to be a father and a and uh a family man. Yeah, there's a lot of different um phases that we take young men through, and it's it's designed actually around um you know African tribes used to have rituals to take young men through this process of okay, you're now you're you're you're now becoming a man. And so it's designed around those types of rituals, so so right called rites of passage, yes, boys to men rites of passage. And uh yeah, so working with with with Ian Jeffers now started a program in St. Lucia that both Sanders and Massey Stores have sponsored. Um I went to a funeral for a friend's um wife on Saturday morning, and one of the young men who's a priest now in the Anglican church came up to me and said, Hey, Mr. Warner, I said, Hey, hi, hi, I'm Father Ezekiel. I forgot which was his name. And and yeah, I was in the Boys to Man program. And it's it's it's like amazing. You see these young men who, you know, um were growing up in some some areas where their life could have taken two different paths. Um, and and and because of the program, you know, they're making something, they've chosen a different path and they're in leadership positions, uh, and and and you know, having a much different life than people that they were growing up around are having. So we believe it's a really important program for young men, particularly in you know, areas where uh they don't have a lot of role models and uh opportunities to help them not just personally but also become more marketable in society and business.

Corie 1:44:25

Well, congrats on that, and thanks for it, because it's something that I feel like we need more and more of here. Yeah, those those examples. And I want to personally thank you as well for the example you've been to me from a distance. I guess I always want to approach you after church, but with my sinful self, I say, well, let me let him remain. But I really, really appreciate all the things you've talked about. I appreciate you coming out today. This was this was excellent.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:47

Thanks for the interview, man. Thanks for the opportunity, my shit and the opportunity to be with you. Thank you, thank you. And thanks for the work that you are doing. This is really great. It's really good.

Corie 1:44:56

It takes all my strengths.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:57

Thanks for the work you are both doing. I it's clear that it's a very strong team.

Corie 1:45:01

I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:02

On camera and off camera.

Corie 1:45:03

Yeah, we're having a good time. Yeah, man. I appreciate it. It takes all the strength not to say the boys are in zones of special operations. I wanted to know that I was much killed and I did not stay in zones of special operations. Because that is what zone of special operations would look like.