Ethical Non-Monogamy: Is the Impact Worth It?

In this compelling video, Dr. Joe Beam and CEO Kimberly Beam Holmes of Marriage Helper delve into Ethical Non-Monogamy (ENM), examining its implications and how it intersects with concepts like polygamy and references to polygamy in the Bible. They explore the ethical non-monogamy meaning, questioning if personal consent is enough to justify its practice amidst potential emotional harm and societal disruption.

The dialogue critically assesses the impact of ENM on emotional connections, trust, and the essence of fulfilling relationships, challenging the trend of prioritizing personal desires over deep, committed bonds. This conversation is an invitation to reflect on the true value of exclusivity and intimacy in relationships, advocating for a return to monogamous commitments as the foundation for personal and societal well-being.

Join us for a thought-provoking exploration of ethical non-monogamy, its challenges, and the pursuit of genuine connection in today's complex relationship landscapes.

Relationship Radio is hosted by CEO of Marriage Helper, Kimberly Beam Holmes, and founder of Marriage Helper, Dr. Joe Beam.

Regardless of your situation, what we teach will not only make your relationships better, but will also help you to become the best version of yourself along the way.

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:32

E-N-M. What it's? A new set of letters out there. You know, you can find online all kinds of things people are coming up with now and and you think, okay, what does that mean? I'm of the generation where I'm still trying to figure out what ASAP means, but E-N-M is one that I've run across recently. And what does it stand for? Interestingly ethical, non monogamy. Ethical, non monogamy. I'm Dr Joe Beam, with Mary Shulfer, with our CEO, kimberly Holmes. Kimberly. Let's talk just for a moment or two about what ethical would mean and then let's see why people we talking about ethical non monogamy.

Speaker 2: 1:12

Yeah, I am believing that ethical in this sense means that there is an agreed upon engagement with this non monogamy. So it's ethical because we've talked about it, we've made a plan, both parties are consenting to it and we're moving forward in a non monogamous arrangement.

Speaker 1: 1:31

Okay, and so in that sense ethics has only to do with what those two people agree on.

Speaker 2: 1:38

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1: 1:38

Correct. And so if I were part of a gang where that we prove our manhood by assassinating somebody, but all of our gang believed that and the ethics of our gang would be, it's okay to kill, right.

Speaker 2: 1:51

Are you setting me up for something?

Speaker 1: 1:53

No.

Speaker 2: 1:53

Yeah, then yes, I agree.

Speaker 1: 1:56

No, what I'm trying to say is that that they, when you start saying ethics has to do with what I believe is right and wrong, then what happens to culture? Because if we're going to have any way to exist as a civilization not just as one country, but as a world full of countries, and not just within one country, a place, but all the places in that country then ethics would have to be what are the sets of rights and wrongs, the sets of rules that the general population can adhere to, that causes the greatest good and does the least harm? Mm-hmm, and so you're right. The way they're describing it as ethical is because of the fact well, if I and my wife both agree to it, then it's ethical. In other words, she's not getting hurt because she agreed to it. I'm not getting hurt because I agreed to it. Therefore there was no harm. But that's not true. Even if they both agree to it, it does not mean that it's not causing harm.

Speaker 2: 2:51

Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 2:53

So what kind of things would we talk about if we say, okay, it does cause harm, well, we in, we batch record these podcasts.

Speaker 2: 3:01

The one that we just recorded was the one about the state of divorce, right, and we see that 60% of marriages that end it's because of infidelity. Now, I understand, right now we're talking about ethical non-monogamy, but how many times do people enter into these open marriages? They have this great idea we're going to enhance our sex life by wife swapping or whatever. We're going to do this and we're both agreeing to it, but then it turns into infidelity because one of them falls in love with someone else, or the kids begin to realize like things aren't actually stable at home. Or what about the other people that they're actually having sex with? And what, if? How are they being hurt by this? Like you're starting to add a lot of people in.

Speaker 2: 3:50

And then, and then there's this other topic over here, which is men especially tend to be way more protective sexually of their wives. And when you look, not at this ethical non-monogamy stuff, but just in other research that's been done, when men's wives end up having affairs sexual affairs with other people, the hardest thing for a man to get over is the fact his wife actually had sex with someone else. For a wife, it's more of a sexual affair, for a wife it's more so the emotional attachment that she fears that her husband might have had with the other woman. But for the man it is about the actual act.

Speaker 1: 4:26

Or some men.

Speaker 2: 4:27

So it's another question I have in this whole ethical non-monogamy thing about how people are actually agreeing to terms and conditions on the front end before they actually know how it's going to affect them and play out in reality.

Speaker 1: 4:42

I read a study several years ago, a research project actually done at a Catholic University of all places. You'll understand what I mean when I say that at the moment, because these two professors at a Catholic University came out with this research that said that people in open marriages actually have a higher level of marital satisfaction and a higher level of sexual satisfaction. So, in essence, their research was saying your marriage be a whole lot better if you're sleeping with other people.

Speaker 2: 5:09

You got to look into the methodology of that research.

Speaker 1: 5:12

Yeah, exactly, and the fact that two Catholic professors that doesn't sound true to a full mirror. But here's the problem with that. First of all, if you interview people or research people who are in this new lifestyle and they haven't been in it that long several months, maybe even a year they're gonna have a different kind of scoring than are after that. And so let me explain why. When you think about it, it really comes back to what you understand the sexual relationship to be. Stay with me. If you believe that sex is just about whatever physical sensations and pleasure that you have, then would I mind my spouse getting it other than for me. Well, so if, if she goes to a restaurant and comes back and says I had a great dessert, it was fantastic, I loved it, you should try it someday. Am I gonna be jealous of that? No, I'm glad you enjoyed it. It was about pleasure. You had pleasure. Good for you.

Speaker 1: 6:09

But suppose that that restaurant was where we had our first date. Suppose that restaurant has become our special place and that she and I only go there to celebrate wonderful things and just the two of us. We never take any other couples with us. We never meet any other couples there. It's our special place that we share as part of our story, part of our history, part of our shared intimacy with each other. Now the wife comes home and she says you know that special place that we have just for the two of us. Uh-huh, I took my boss there for lunch today. Now the husband's gonna be thinking wait a minute, that that place is supposed to be special, it's supposed to be just for us, and and? And now it's not. It has lost that.

Speaker 1: 6:57

If you think of sex as being just for pleasure, then if the wife comes home and says, oh, instead of going to lunch today, the boss and I went to a motel and had sex. If it's only about pleasure, then the husband can say well, I hope you enjoyed it. But if he sees sex is being a lot more than just about the physical sensations of skin on skin, the physical sensations of orgasm, those kinds of things, that actually is where two people become one, not just one in body, but in soul and mind and heart and spirit, all those kinds of things. Because this is the place where we are able to say I am with you, you are with me, I am yours, you are mine, and this is not going to be shared with anybody else, because it's who we're supposed to be, the two of us.

Speaker 1: 7:48

Now, if you view sex as being that like, this is special bond between two people. It's not just about the physical pleasure, but about the emotional connection, the spiritual connection. And she comes home and says oh, instead of going to lunch today, the boss and I went to the hotel and had sex. The husband's going to be devastated.

Speaker 1: 8:08

You took what is ours, you took what's special for us, you took part of our intimacy and somebody else got it, and so it really boils down to what do you think sex is supposed to be? If it's only for pleasure, then you probably don't have much intimacy any other way either. Because, by the way we're made, the deepest and most intense way to indicate to the other person I am one with you and you are one with me is when there is an emotional connection, a deep emotional connection that occurs in that sexual connection and that's not something I want to share with somebody else. That's for you, you're for me, we're there. And so it comes down to Kimberly, in my opinion, that people in our culture who are practicing various forms and I think there's a dozen different forms of it. Now, this so-called ethical non-monogamy are people who don't really understand what truly should occur can occur in a sexual relationship that's between two people committed to each other.

Speaker 2: 9:19

So you think that they weren't taught it? Like they didn't grow up in a home where they experienced it. They don't under, like they don't really know the damage that they're doing is what you're saying.

Speaker 1: 9:30

They don't know what they're missing. Yes, absolutely. I remember again. Later they came to one of our workshops with her husband and she was having a lot of trouble controlling her sexuality. Not only was she having multiple affairs, she was masturbating several times a day, but some council could call us sex addict, what we in sexology would call compulsivity. And as I was asking her, you know, where did this develop? Her parents went into an open marriage and they would bring other people home to their bedroom, which was next door to hers.

Speaker 1: 10:01

So here she is going through her formative years, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, hearing through the thin walls because it was not a willful house hearing through the thin walls, her parents, all the sounds of all the sex that was going on in there. Could that then corrupt the view that this little girl has? As she grows up, as she reaches puberty, as she starts to become sexual, those sounds begin to erotosize her. So she started masturbating. Think just listening to what's happening in the next room. So her view of sex from the beginning, from the outset of her beginning to be an adult, was it's all about as much pleasure as you can get. There are no rules to whatever you want to do, and it had totally messed up her life. Not only did she and her husband come to our workshop, her parents then came to our workshop. So yeah, it can happen from the example.

Speaker 1: 10:57

It can be happen, but the example can be just the opposite. You might have a set of parents who never show any affection toward each other I mean, they're basically roommates and may not even be that polite to each other and they grow up thinking, well, I don't know. I know they had to have had sex because I exist, but obviously it doesn't mean much of a connection because it doesn't appear there's much love in this household. So that's the opposite side of it. It can be that. And then there are many parents who won't try to teach their children about sex because of their own embarrassment or their own lack of sexual fulfillment, or they, they teach their children. Sex is bad, sex is bad, sex is bad, sex is bad. Oh, you getting married tomorrow. Sex is good and the kids can't make the transition. And so all these different views, but there's only one that's totally fulfilling Dr Peggy Kleinplatz.

Speaker 1: 11:53

She's a Canadian researcher. I've read two different studies by her with her colleagues, two different sets of colleagues about the difference in great sex and good sex and if you summarize it, it boils down to an extremely strong emotional connection based on trust that you're not going to try to do anything that's going to make me unhappy, and based on acceptance that I can tell you what I really want, what I really think, what I really feel. That basically requires that you're going to have great sex. It's two people becoming one. Now, if you had a third person, it changes, or fourth, or a fifth, or a sixth.

Speaker 1: 12:32

And how many times have we seen in our workshop couples who have been in that lifestyle and, as you say, one of them and it's usually the wife, but one of them finally falls in love with somebody else. Now they've come to us saying save our marriage. I actually asked one couple once back. I talked to them on the phone before they came. This was years ago. I said are you going to give up that lifestyle? And they said no and I said well, if I were you, I'd save my money, I Wouldn't come to our workshop, I wouldn't bother pay for the hotel room. I wouldn't pay for that, because if you stay in the lifestyle, it's just gonna happen again. Have I been offensive in some of the words I've been using in this program so far.

Speaker 2: 13:09

No, we may have to. We have to, may have to market explicit, which is fine. But so the research by Peggy Kleinpats is, I mean the results of it, sound very similar to even what makes a good marriage. So that was specific to a good sex life, sexual satisfaction. But the trust, the ability to feel like you're gonna accept me, for me to tell you everything I want, I mean that makes a good marriage, that's correct. Why can't you have that with two people?

Speaker 2: 13:35

Three people like two people like why can't, why can't I have that with Rob and another man? How?

Speaker 1: 13:43

It may be the best way to illustrate it back. I was invited to speak to a big group of teenagers out in Washington State years ago. Took your sister, joanna Whitney she was maybe 14 at the time, so I go out there and it was a church event. So they were youth ministers and youth ministers are ruthless people and and they called some guy up on stage actually, they call three boys up on stage, all of whom had a lot of hair in their arms, and they said let me explain what it's like to become one with a person. And they took that gray duct tape, mm-hmm, and they wrapped it around the arm of one guy all the way around, all the way around, oh and they say okay, now you're one with that tape.

Speaker 1: 14:20

But what happens if now we're gonna give it to somebody and they yank it off of him? And he's Screamed. When they yanked that thing off, it memory had little hairs hanging on it. They had to catch the second boy. He was pretty fast, he was moving on. But they caught the second boy and they try to put it on him and it barely stuck and it would not stick on the third boy.

Speaker 1: 14:39

And what they were saying was this is just an illustration to say I Can't be one With two people. If I'm gonna be one, it means one it's you, it's me, we're gonna share our hearts. We're gonna share physically, intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, and as soon as I put another person into that equation, then I'm robbing from you. So if for our people, for example, who might be biblical, in the Old Testament there's a passage that if a man marries his slave and Then he marries another now, now she's not a slave anymore, she's a wife and then he marries another woman, yeah that if he does not sexually fulfill the first woman, she can divorce him with no penalty.

Speaker 1: 15:24

And what they were saying is you have an obligation and and how are you gonna fulfill that obligation?

Speaker 2: 15:30

Okay, but this is, this is a common comment, mm-hmm I, polyamory was allowed in the. Old Testament. We've even had a YouTube commenter he'll probably comment on this who says that we like if we would just teach that the man could have multiple women and be with his affair partner and the wife, like the Bible says, then everything in the marriage would be fine.

Speaker 1: 16:01

Apparently, you know, if we're gonna talk Bible and forgive us if that thing just certainly don't mean to, but or if this is just gonna really interest you because you think Christians are crazy, then tune in, and some Christians are.

Speaker 1: 16:14

It also says that let the marriage bed be undefiled. That's in the New Testament, and Jesus himself was the one who said if a man lusts after another woman, he has violated the covenant with his wife. He used the word at older age that if you, if you, lust even after the other person. In the Old Testament, why was there polyamory? Why would? Why was their ability for men to have several wives?

Speaker 1: 16:41

If you look at it, women were still treated to a degree as property, and because of the, of the wars and because of the diseases, there were thousands and maybe millions I don't know how many people on the planet back then more women than there were men, and so to some degree it was a practical thing. We have to populate our countries, et cetera, and so God allowed it. I don't know that God ever commanded it, but God allowed it as we got closer to the New Testament era, where there, where now, it was more about relationship, not property, but relationship. It's like don't defile the marriage bed, don't commit adultery, don't lust after somebody else. It's really meant to be two people, and that was the original way, back in the beginning, that Adam and Eve were made to be one. So when Jesus said, you heard that, that you were supposed to be one, but then you started divorcing and the reason you started divorcing was because of the hardness of your heart.

Speaker 1: 17:42

Well, I think to some degree the polygamy, not polyamory, polygamy is one husband I said the wrong word and was basically you're not enough for me, I need somebody else. And it could have been I need more children because I need feel hands. It could be I need more children because of the fact that we can then do more things, et cetera, et cetera. I don't see super close romantic relationships in many places in the Old Testament Song of songs, absolutely. But when Abraham thought that they saw his wife as being attractive, he lied. He said she's my sister. And and why did it if? Think about that. If you're husband, rob, I mean you're a beautiful woman. If somebody began to look at you and and he could see the letteressness in their eyes and he said, well, she's just my sister, how much would that indicate? What would that say about the intimacy, the relationship you and Rob have?

Speaker 2: 18:42

Yeah, that he would be willing to be like Havre, exactly To keep me alive, which is very much the opposite of what would happen.

Speaker 1: 18:48

You're exactly right, Rob. Rob would die for you. But.

Speaker 2: 18:52

I was thinking he might kill them, but yes, either way.

Speaker 1: 18:55

Well, I would hope. If somebody has to die, I hope it's the other guy. I'm with you in that, but you understand my point.

Speaker 2: 19:02

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:02

And so if this guy wants to post, be like the Bible, okay, don't lust after another woman other than your wife. Don't defile your bed, be one. And you can't do that with a bunch of different people. And so, and even when they had multiples, look, look, some of the problems. Even back to Abraham again, yeah, a guy once brought his wife to me and said I want you to prove to me biblically that I can't have more than one wife. And she's sitting there. He said because she doesn't agree. I said I don't have to prove it to you, bibb ugly. He said why not? I said because she's not going to agree to it, so you might as well forget it right now. It's not going to happen. You're trying to justify my scripture and she's looking at you saying I will not be violated that way.

Speaker 2: 19:43

Right, Right. Well, and it's an interesting point too, which is just because it happened even if it happened in scripture, doesn't mean God wanted it that way.

Speaker 1: 19:55

He allowed and tolerated some things to occur. As the basic illustration in scripture is he treated people way back in the Old Testament more like children.

Speaker 2: 20:05

Well, they kind of were they really were. But think about it.

Speaker 1: 20:08

How sophisticated could they be? Okay, and then he treats people in the New Testament more like adults. Okay, you've grown up now, so I'm going to change. In the Old Testament, I'm going to tell you not just the 10 commandments, there were about 700 commandments altogether. Okay, in the New Testament it says now I'm writing it on your heart, what do you mean? Well, I'm holding you to a different level of accountability. I'm not going to have to give you every single rule Now. I want you to be who you're supposed to be.

Speaker 1: 20:37

And then you'll do what you're supposed to do.

Speaker 2: 20:41

So ethical non monogamy is not ethical. It's not ethical.

Speaker 1: 20:46

In my opinion? No, because look what it does to culture. I agree, culture gets destroyed because people need strong family and there's no way. If Alice were one of my wife it was one of my wives and I had others you as our daughter, how would you feel about that?

Speaker 2: 21:06

It's so weird.

Speaker 1: 21:09

And would you ever look at those other women in a negative way because you'd feel like your mother was not getting?

Speaker 2: 21:15

Special treatment yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:18

It doesn't work. Now, if you're saying, yes, it does, we're doing it and we're happy, two things Either you're relatively new into it, or you see sex as only being about pleasure and not about a true intimate connection.

Speaker 2: 21:37

So what are next steps?

Speaker 1: 21:39

Stop. I'm thinking that our culture is continuing to get worse. People become so self selfish. It's about me making me happy right now as I am. As long as I'm happy, everything is OK. So whatever I do is all right.

Speaker 1: 21:57

You have no right to sit in judgment on me at all, and we have moved continually in my lifetime into more and more anything goes. Yeah, back when I was a little boy, it would have been unheard of for people to do some of the things they're doing today. And the way it goes psychologically is this what used to be forbidden finally becomes tolerated. After it gets tolerated, it becomes the norm. Once it becomes the norm, anybody who speaks against it is not tolerated, and you and I are to some degree in that last category. People can tell me to attack us because we won't accept what has become the norm, because we're all about true love, we're all about commitment, we're all about being there for each other, for your children, your family, having that person you can depend on. And that's not popular, which makes us the kind of people that will judge us as being judgmental because we won't accept the normalcy that they have developed so called normalcy.

Speaker 2: 23:12

But we do believe there is hope.

Speaker 1: 23:13

Absolutely. And if your spouse says let's start having sex with other people, we can help. But the way we'll help you is by helping your marriage to find that intimacy where you need it, because that's really what you're looking for.

Speaker 2: 23:28

Yeah, and even if that's where someone is now, where they're listening and saying, well, we are in this open marriage, 12 different, whatever it is. That is what we're doing, but I'm truly not fulfilled. We can help.

Speaker 1: 23:42

I want that one, as you've been describing.

Speaker 2: 23:44

We can absolutely help with that and if that's something you've been craving, something you've been wanting that maybe haven't admitted to it yourself deep down, then speak with one of our intake specialists. You can go to maritalpercom slash book now B-O-O-K-N-O-W. It'll ask you some questions. You can book a time on one of our intake specialist calendar to just have a conversation and there's no judgment from our team. No, we have people often who are in open marriages that our team talks to and helps move forward into having that true, long-lasting, committed intimacy that we've been talking about on today's program. We'll see you next time, but until then, remember there is always hope.