Relationship Radio: Marriage, Sex, Limerence & Avoiding Divorce

13 Warning Signs You Might Be In LIMERENCE

April 03, 2024 Dr. Joe Beam & Kimberly Beam Holmes: Experts in Fixing Marriages & Saving Relationships Season 6 Episode 29
Relationship Radio: Marriage, Sex, Limerence & Avoiding Divorce
13 Warning Signs You Might Be In LIMERENCE
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

Is an intense infatuation a sign of true love, or is it something else entirely? This episode explores the concept of limerence and its potential impact on relationships. In this eye-opening episode of Relationship Radio, Dr. Joe Beam and Kimberly Beam Holmes of Marriage Helper dive deep into the powerful and often misunderstood phenomenon of limerence.

Discover:
- What limerence is and how it differs from romantic love
- The warning signs of limerence: how to know if you or your partner have crossed the line
- Powerful questions to assess how to set boundaries and protect your marriage relationship
- What to do if you're facing the destructive forces of limerence

If you're struggling with confusing emotions or have questions about the health of your relationships, this episode is for you!

⚠️ The video discusses 13 warning signs of limerence, which include: ⚠️

1. Heightened focus on the other person (limerence object).
2. Halo effect where the person in limerence cannot see any flaws in the limerence object.
3. Decrease in productivity due to being so focused on being with them, daydreaming about them, or thinking about future plans together.
4. Deep longing, craving, or almost unquenchable drive to be emotionally connected to the limerence object and for them to reciprocate those feelings.
5. Willingness to sacrifice everything in life to be with the limerence object.
6. Obsessive thinking about the limerence object.
7. Hurting other people around them due to their focus on the limerence object.
8. Changing habits that they never thought they would change.
9. Having hyper vigilance and being overly attentive to any sign that the limerence object is moving towards or away from them emotionally.
10. Experiencing emotional highs and lows based on the limerence object's actions or perceived actions.
11. Being in a state of ecstasy or misery based on interactions or lack of interactions with the limerence object.
12. Unable to see the limerence object's flaws.
13. Turning against anyone perceived as being between them and the limerence object.

Resources mentioned in the video:
Interview with Dr. Helen Fisher
Ethical Non Monogamy Episode
Jealousy and Insecurity Episode
Intervention: How To

Relationship Radio is hosted by CEO of Marriage Helper, Kimberly Beam Holmes, and founder of Marriage Helper, Dr. Joe Beam.


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Speaker 1:

It's not classified as an addiction, but it sure has similarities. It's not classified as obsessive-compulsive disorder, but it has some similarities to that as well, and so, primarily, romantic love can be a lifelong thing, where you feel this deep attachment to another person and want to be with them or her. Limerence is a short-lived event Not all people go through, and if you do, then you are so focused on the other person that he or she becomes basically everything in your world. Back in the 1970s, dr Tenov started talking about this thing called limerence. We in the 1990s started teaching people about it and back then it seemed that nobody had ever heard of it. Now we are not the ones who found the principle. Who discovered it, dr Dorothy Tenhoff is. We've helped people to understand it across the country and even to this day, sometimes get invited to come talk to marriage counselors and therapists about what limerence is, because they've had no teaching on it at all.

Speaker 1:

In this episode we're going to do three things. Number one explain what limerence is briefly, because we've talked about it so much. Number two how can you tell if you or your spouse might be in limerence with someone else? And number three I'm actually going to give you a new device for questions you can ask, that you can ask of yourself, or that you can ask about your spouse and answer by observing your spouse. That will give you a good idea as to whether either you or your spouse has crossed the line when it comes to boundaries in relationships. We'll get that at the very end. I'm Dr Joe Beam with Marriage Helper. This is Kimberly Beam Holmes, our CEO, and this is Relationship Radio.

Speaker 2:

Yes, sounds like a packed episode.

Speaker 1:

I'm excited to dive into it.

Speaker 2:

All right, so the first thing we're going to cover is what is limerence?

Speaker 1:

I've talked about that so many times. Why don't you describe it just briefly, what limerence is.

Speaker 2:

Limerence is the feeling of being madly in love with someone else, and it is generally characterized by the beginning part or generally happens in the beginning parts of a. And it is generally characterized by the beginning part or generally happens in the beginning parts of a relationship because it is driven by a neurotransmitter called dopamine, and dopamine is the chemical of anticipation of pleasure, and so when your dopamine is high, it is anticipating good things and planning for the future. And in limerence your serotonin also drops, so that you are just constantly enamored by this other person. So that is my more brainy way of explaining what limerence is.

Speaker 1:

So what's the difference in that and romantic love?

Speaker 2:

So, according to Dr Helen Fisher, who is brilliant and worked under Dorothy Tinoff for a period of time, she would say that romantic love.

Speaker 2:

So she uses fMRIs to look at when someone is in limerence, or what she actually calls it romantic love.

Speaker 2:

She doesn't differentiate the two terms. She doesn't differentiate the two terms and so she's looking at the way that certain areas of their brain light up and she says that doesn't necessarily have to end when they see their object that they're in love with. However, she agrees and we have it on audio because she was on my podcast talking about it that the beginning parts of limerence, where it is skyrocketing, where I mean the dopamine is just through the roof, where all you can do is think about the other person, where productivity goes, decreases because all you want to do is be with that other person. That is not sustainable and therefore that part of romantic love fades, but the the the drive to want to be with the other person, being, being the other part of romantic love, can stay and doesn't necessarily ever have to fade, which I think you and I would agree with. So then, what's the difference in limerence and romantic love? Limerence is the sky-high dopamine effect. It's where you feel like you're addicted to the other person, although it wouldn't necessarily be classified as an addiction.

Speaker 1:

It's not classified as an addiction, but it sure has similarities. It's not classified as obsessive-compulsive disorder, but it has some similarities to that as well, and so, primarily, romantic love can be a lifelong thing, where you feel this deep attachment to another person and want to be with them or her. Limerence is a short-lived event, not all people go through, and if you do, then you are so focused on the other person that he or she becomes basically everything in your world. Therefore, as Kimberly said, productivity drops and decisions tend not to be made very wisely. So limerence between two single people and neither one is bad for the other is okay, right, limerence inherently isn't a bad thing.

Speaker 1:

What makes it a bad thing?

Speaker 2:

When you're married first of all and you become in limerence with someone else that's not your spouse, then it can lead you to make decisions that you wouldn't make in a right state of mind and ultimately, it's what leads to affairs. It's what can lead to people divorcing, trying to be with the other person, ruining their families, et cetera. Or when someone falls in limerence with someone and they're single. Both of them are single, but they are not good for each other.

Speaker 1:

Because they're not going to see that Exactly and no matter how many people tell them that they're not going to hear it Not see that Exactly and no matter how many people tell them that they're not going to hear it, not going to hear it. And so we look at that and say then limerence between two single people who are not bad for each other part of nature it doesn't always happen, but if it does, okay, Going to be a lack of productivity, but it's okay.

Speaker 1:

But limerence that destroys existing relationships is a bad thing. Because if you're committed to this man or committed to this woman and now all of a sudden you know to feel like, all of a sudden although it's not quite that way you feel this overwhelming attraction to this other person, to the point where you think I don't know that I can live without him or live without her, Then it's destructive, because it's destructive to this relationship and you say, well, maybe that relationship should have existed to begin with. Actually, what's going to happen is that limerence is going to fade, it's going to go away eventually. And that's when people typically look back and think look at all the damage I've done to other people, even to myself, to my wife, my husband, my children. So when we talk about limerence, we're talking about it and destroying one relationship, at least one, maybe two relationships, to begin a new relationship.

Speaker 2:

So what would you say to people who may be listening to us at this point and say well, how do we know that limerence isn't just our evolutionary, biological way of showing us that we shouldn't be monogamous?

Speaker 1:

way of showing us that we shouldn't be monogamous. Well, we've done recently a program on non Ethical non-monogamy, ethical non-monogamy, which I think is an oxymoron just to even say that If a person is justifying having sex with a bunch of different people and having this relationship with that person, that relationship with that person. We have read in history about people who had almost uncontrollable sex drives, but not necessarily because of the sex, but because of the affirmation that they get from this person and this person and this person and this person. I don't know that any of those people look back and say that's the lifestyle I'd recommend for my children. There may be, of course, but I don't know of any of those people look back and say that's the lifestyle I'd recommend for my children. There may be, of course, but I don't know of any of those people We'd look at that and say but stability, having somebody who is there for you we talked about this in a previous program.

Speaker 1:

I need to know that somebody loves me as I am and that accepts me as I am, will be there for me in the good times and the bad, and you can't have that hopping from relationship to relationship to relationship to relationship. I was watching a concert on television the other night a rock and roll band, that one of the ones I really like and the guy said I don't have to remember the names of my first four wives, I just call them all plaintiff. I'm thinking okay, you can't be as happy as people. As a matter of fact, the research is out there. People who are in good marriages not perfect marriages, those don't exist actually live longer, have more peace, are healthier. We're not made to hop from one relationship to the next, we're made to mate and to stay with that mate. That's how we're put together.

Speaker 2:

Right. Right, it is the fleshly desire maybe there's a better way to put that that leads us to want to do these other things. It doesn't mean that it's right Just because our biology might drive us to be attracted to other people even after marriage, or whatever. It doesn't mean that it's the go-ahead signal to do it.

Speaker 1:

No, sometimes I think wolves have better morality than humans. A male wolf will stay with that female companion until death either hers or his. You say well, you're comparing us to wolves, and I'm just saying that even in parts of nature where that you function better with a mate, you see lifelong mating.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, very true. So what are the signs? What are the signs? So there's 13, I believe. Oh, and there's a lot more than that. There's at least 13. One of them we've already talked about there's a heightened focus of this other person, your limerent object, as many people will know it as so the object of the limerence. There's a heightened focus around it. There's a halo effect you can't see. You cannot see what they do wrong. There is a decrease of productivity because you're so focused on wanting to be with them or daydream about them, or thinking about your future plans together. This is where that dopamine comes in. You're anticipating more pleasure with them in the future. What are some others?

Speaker 1:

Well, all of those are true. The one thing that's always true, if it's limerence, is there's a deep longing, craving, almost unquenchable drive to be emotionally connected to the other person, and that they feel toward you what you feel toward them. Now people might be saying, well, isn't that the same as romantic love, in a sense. But romantic love is not nearly as intense, not nearly as overwhelming and not nearly as controlling of you. Because when we talk to people in limerence it's like oh no, this is my soulmate. I know I'm married to that one, but this is my soulmate. God wanted me to be with this one. Really, how do you know? Because I have such a deep craving to be with him or her.

Speaker 1:

And if you leave the relationship you're in now, who gets hurt? Well, everybody's going to wind up happy in the long run. What makes you think that If this person loves you, if you have children, they love you, etc. What makes you think that nobody's going to be hurt by what you do? And so this craving becomes so strong that you're willing to even violate your own beliefs and values that I'll do whatever it takes to be with this person. And if that means I no longer believe that divorce is wrong, then I'll change that belief, if I no longer believe that. If I didn't used to say people should just do what makes them happy, if I used to say you need to do what's right and responsible, well, in limerence I'm going to change that over to no, you just have to do whatever's going to make me happy, and so you're right. Up to 85% are the waking hours spent thinking about the other person or the relationship with the other person, and they don't have any sense that they control the emotion. I can't tell you the number of times somebody in limerence has looked at me and said I can't stop this, I can't stop what I'm feeling, and that's because of the brain chemicals, as you can explain in much more detail than I, and so we look at that and say so.

Speaker 1:

Limerence is when you are so focused on another person that you're willing to sacrifice everything in your life to be with that person. And then we can give all kinds of examples, like the obsessive thinking, like the hurting other people around you, changing your habits that you never changed before, and even having hypervigilance and paying attention to the other person, so that we are constantly if you're in limerence and that person you're in limerence with, as you call, the limerent object, that if I'm in limerence with her, I'm hypervigilant as to any sign that she's moving toward me emotionally and hypervigilant to any sign real or imagined that she's moving away from me, which means that it's lived a lot in fear and that fear drives the passion, drives the emotion, and so it's not romantic love. If it were like that, the rest of your life would destroy you. Nobody can live at that level of intensity. Yet at the same time, people who are in limericks think I want this level of intensity and I'm going to feel like this the rest of my life, but it can't, cannot.

Speaker 2:

We recently did an episode in a podcast about jealousy and insecurity. So if someone is in limerence, even if they didn't have a history like if you know, if they don't have an insecure attachment or anything like that do they become jealous and insecure just because of the situation?

Speaker 1:

If we were thinking about the four-quadrant model. It has to do with attachment styles and we don't have time to explain that in detail. People in limerence are almost always in the top right quadrant, which is Preoccupied, Preoccupied, Anxious.

Speaker 2:

I'm afraid that you're not going to be here for me, even if they were previously secure, they will move, at least temporarily, into preoccupied.

Speaker 1:

At least with that person.

Speaker 2:

So would that be another way to assess if someone's in limerence?

Speaker 1:

That would be definitely a part of it. Preoccupied could be again if there's—well, let's put it this way If you think about limerence as being destructive when it destroys an existing relationship. So if I'm in a secure quadrant with my wife, alice, and then I get into a limerence with Sally Sue, so I move into a preoccupied quadrant with Sally Sue, I will move into a dismissing of order quadrant with Alice.

Speaker 1:

Oh, interesting which means that as I become preoccupied more and more with this person, that I have this intense emotional attraction to the other relationships that preexisted that I'm still in, become totally worthless or valueless to me. I mean, I may still give lip service to it, but in terms of what I'm going to live for, what I'm going to sacrifice no Dismissing, avoidant, I don't need those people anymore. Don't want those people anymore, I just want this person. And that's when you can see the true destructive power of limerence, when a person's in this relationship and then winds up destroying that relationship for the other relationship and saying, oh, they're better off now. You've just put them through a bunch of pain.

Speaker 2:

The kids can fall in that category too, right yeah. So where the kids, the spouse in limerence becomes dismissing, avoidant towards their own children, absolutely Because they're trying to justify their behavior and they can't feel, it would be difficult for them to feel that they're hurting their children, hurting their wife. So they have to like, logically, they have to move them into dismissing avoidance. Yeah this can't matter to me anymore.

Speaker 1:

Yep, and that's, I think, the clearest sign of limers there is. I have such a craving to be with her or him and I'm hypervigilant, to the point that I'm having ecstasy or misery, based on how I interpret whatever he or she does or doesn't do, and so sometimes I'm up here, sometimes I'm down there, up here, down there, up here, down there. As a matter of fact, the song by Percy Sledge, when a man Loves a Woman if you want to go look those lyrics up because of copyright laws I can't quote all of them here, but if you go look up those lyrics, you'll see a really interesting description of what limerence is, including being unable to see the other person's flaws turning against anybody else that you perceive as being between the two of you, and that you will go from ecstasy to misery just by what the other person does or what you perceive they do. I think that song summarizes about a thousand pages of research.

Speaker 2:

And he didn't even know.

Speaker 1:

Well, I think he knew in the sense that obviously he had been in limerence, right?

Speaker 2:

So what is the tool or the questionnaire that people can use, whether they're trying to assess whether they are in limerence or their spouse is in limerence?

Speaker 1:

I'm not so sure this would assess limerence, but it will definitely assess whether you have crossed the boundary. Okay, back home, many years ago I think it was maybe even the 1970s they came up with a thing called CAGE C-A-G-E, and it was designed for frontline physicians to get an idea as to whether you might be an alcoholic or not. And the four questions had to do with those letters C, a, g, e. And so the first one was have you ever felt you should cut back on your drinking? The second one was have you ever felt annoyed that's the A about what people say about your drinking? And then G was guilt have you ever felt guilty about your drinking? And then the E is eye-opener have you ever needed a drink to get an eye open in the morning? I mean to get yourself started. Two yes answers, according to the research, two yes answers indicate a 74% likelihood that you're an alcoholic. Just to those four questions. Well, they've expanded it now to what's called the cage aid, so it doesn't just cover alcohol anymore, it covers drugs as well. Well, I was looking at that a few years ago and I thought we could modify that just a little bit and get a pretty good idea about whether somebody's crossing relationship boundaries. Now I call it the cage beam, just so we can differentiate it between the other cage that we did not come up with Now, using the same idea though it's like.

Speaker 1:

Have you ever felt you should cut back on the time you spend with this person or the things you talk to this person about? I'm talking about somebody other than your spouse, other than the person you're already in a relationship with. So this is what we're examining. Have you crossed boundaries from this relationship into another one you shouldn't be in. So number one have you ever felt you should cut back on the time you spend with this other person or the things you talk to the person about? A annoyed have you ever been annoyed by what people say about the time you spend with or the relationship you have with this other person? And then the G have you ever felt guilty about how much time you spend with this person or the things you talk to this person about? And then the E rather than being an eye opener like you would with the drug or alcohol, e would be elevator. Is this the person that you want to go to whenever you're really up or really down, like I want to share my joy with this person or I want to be comforted by this other person.

Speaker 1:

Now, we have not done statistical studies on that. Therefore I can't tell you that for sure. Two yes answers indicates a 74% likelihood that you have crossed the boundaries. We haven't done that kind of study. Here's what I would say One yes should definitely give you caution on either one of those, either of those four questions. Like, really You're in this relationship with this person, but now you're talking to that person that much about things that maybe you shouldn't be talking to that other person about. And sometimes people see it and when they say something about it rather than listening to them, they become annoyed and you sometimes feel guilty about it because you think maybe I shouldn't be spending that much time with him. And this person becomes your eye not eye opener, but elevator. That you want to help you regulate your own emotions, I'm saying just one of those, kimberly, indicates to me that you are very likely either about to cross the boundary or you have crossed the boundary. Now the problem would be getting somebody to honestly rape themselves, right?

Speaker 1:

So do you know, rob, well enough, your husband Rob that if he were having a friendship with Sally Sue, since we use that name would you be able to be able to answer any of those questions for him?

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

How many?

Speaker 2:

Well, I would be able to answer Probably the elevator one, the annoy one, for sure, and maybe the cutback. It's the cutback and the guilty ones because those are more of what's internally happening within him, got it?

Speaker 1:

So, with the A and the E, would be pretty much visible, unless he has a tremendous person at hiding yeah, unless he has a tremendous person at hiding yeah. And so I'd say, if you worry, if your spouse is crossing a boundary, I'm not telling you that this guarantees you that they have, I'm telling you that it's a good sign. So Kimberly, at church, called me several years ago now and said some of the people are unhappy about the relationship between our minister and his secretary and we just want to make sure that everything's good. And so I gave them those four questions and said now, just based on your observation and on both the A and the E, they said powerful yeses. I said then I cannot tell you for sure that you've crossed the boundary, but I'm telling you the signs are highly likely that this should be looked into.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. They said nah, we don't think so. We think he's okay. And he literally told me that. And so a month later he ran away with the secretary. Just it took off. Now I'm saying do not determine that your spouse has crossed the boundaries if you can answer for him or her, both the A and the E.

Speaker 1:

But I'm saying, if you can answer those, it's time for you guys to have a very serious conversation. Not an attacking conversation, because people always defend themselves when they're attacked, but an open and honest conversation where you sit down and think about it from your side. But an open and honest conversation, where you sit down and think about it from your side, I'm worried. I feel that I don't have the relationship with you that I want to have. I worry because and then those kinds of things and if they're going to be honest, they're more likely to be honest in that kind of conversation.

Speaker 2:

And then what if they're not? What if they just say it's all in your head, nothing's happening?

Speaker 1:

Which they may. I mean, it's not unusual for a person in the limerence to do that to their spouse, right To the point where the spouse starts thinking maybe I'm crazy. As a matter of fact, sometimes they'll tell them that she's your best friend. What are you thinking about? Oh, you're just paranoid. In other words, you better start paying a lot of attention. Is there missing money? Is there missing time? Are there unexplained things going on? Like usually he's home by 6, but now he's typically home by 9, and you don't have a good explanation for that. Now you may have an excuse that you're getting, but no good explanation for that. You start looking for signs that things aren't right and then, based on that, you start looking for signs that things aren't right and then, based on that, you must decide what to do next.

Speaker 2:

Which is what?

Speaker 1:

Well, it's based on whether you want to save the marriage or not. If you think you have enough evidence that he or she is cheating on you, then, if you wish, you can call the divorce attorney and get everything started. That's not what we would recommend. What we recommend is that you sit down with them again and say look, I've got enough evidence here. If they go to our website, marriage Helper that's marriagehelpercom, and in the search engine there type in intervention. We actually have like a 35, 40-page PDF there and two 45-minute audios teaching them how they can do an intervention if they have come to the point where they know what's going on, and that's available for free Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2:

So what would you say? The next step is for the listener.

Speaker 1:

Which listener?

Speaker 2:

The person wanting to save the marriage.

Speaker 1:

The next step? Well, go, look at the intervention document and you may want to get help with us right away. Now you're saying what if my spouse won't? We discovered a few years ago that X number of spouses refused to attend our three-day intensive workshop, and so, based on your leadership, we developed a solo spouse version same material, actually a little bit more in depth, where that solo spouse has come because the other one's not interested at this point or doesn't want to at this point. If you really want to learn a lot about yourself and about relationships, about what to do, about what not to do, that solo spouse workshop will enrich you I mean tremendously and we have seen, based on that, people then are able to turn the relationship with their spouse around just because of the things they've learned and they've changed, and have been able to get the spouse to come back with them to our couples workshop even after the spouse has said don't ever contact me again about anything.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So I sort of recommend our solo spouse workshop. Yeah, so that's what I would recommend our solo spouse workshop?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and they can find out more by going to marriagehelpercom. Slash book now, Book now being one word. Book now being one word yes, and speaking with an intake specialist, what about for the person in limerence?

Speaker 1:

I would suggest one of two things. The solo spouse workshop may be what you need as well. What I'm saying is, if you're not ready to tell your spouse what you're doing, you're not ready to be admitted, but you really feel that you should stop it. Like I know this is not right, and so some days it's like I'm going to go with this other person and some days it's like I can't go with this other person. That's not right.

Speaker 1:

If you're in that state and not ready to discuss it with your spouse, please come to our solo spouse workshop. We'll often have people in there trying to make that decision. You say but they'd been a workshop with other people who are trying to save the marriages. Yeah, won't they treat me like dirt? We've never seen that. As a matter of fact, it's been extremely empathetic because they're trying to understand both sides, and so many people have come to the Solo Spouse Workshop. I don't know how many, but several people have come to the Solo Spouse Workshop to decide whether they should let the limerence lead them or if they should try to save the marriage and, for other reasons, the limerence as well. Should I stay in this marriage or not? And then, if you are ready to talk to your spouse about it. We would definitely recommend the couples workshop. We can help tremendously with both of you there to understand those things.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. And again, you can go to marriagehelpercom slash book now Speak with an intake specialist about how we can help. Great episode, great information, lots that we covered, but I believe the listeners are going to love it, and they always love limerence content.

Speaker 1:

Okay, Well, we always will come back with more all kinds of content on Relationship Radio.

Speaker 2:

That's right, and until next time, remember there is always hope.

Understanding Limerence vs Romantic Love
Limerence and the Nature of Relationships
Identifying Signs of Limerence
Recognizing and Addressing Relationship Boundaries
Navigating Limerence and Marriage Struggles

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