Feeling unheard and unseen in your relationship?
Is your spouse constantly seeking admiration or making you feel like you're never good enough? You might be dealing with narcissistic traits in your partner. But before you throw in the towel, listen up!
This episode of Relationship Radio dives deep into the world of narcissism, unpacking the two major types: grandiose and vulnerable narcissism. Dr. Joe Beam and Kimberly Beam Holmes will help you identify these behaviors and offer practical communication tips to navigate a challenging relationship.
Here's what you'll learn:
Is this episode for you?
If you answered YES to any of these questions, then this episode is a MUST-LISTEN!
Relationship Radio is hosted by CEO of Marriage Helper, Kimberly Beam Holmes, and founder of Marriage Helper, Dr. Joe Beam.
Regardless of your situation, what we teach will not only make your relationships better, but will also help you to become the best version of yourself along the way.
Relationship Radio is released every Wednesday and is an extension of Marriage Helper.
Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and leave a review. We love hearing from you!
For more resources about your specific situation, visit marriagehelper.com.
We have a new website for the It Starts With Attraction podcast!
Visit www.itstartswithattraction.com to check it out!
Feeling unheard and unseen in your relationship?
Is your spouse constantly seeking admiration or making you feel like you're never good enough? You might be dealing with narcissistic traits in your partner. But before you throw in the towel, listen up!
This episode of Relationship Radio dives deep into the world of narcissism, unpacking the two major types: grandiose and vulnerable narcissism. Dr. Joe Beam and Kimberly Beam Holmes will help you identify these behaviors and offer practical communication tips to navigate a challenging relationship.
Here's what you'll learn:
Is this episode for you?
If you answered YES to any of these questions, then this episode is a MUST-LISTEN!
Relationship Radio is hosted by CEO of Marriage Helper, Kimberly Beam Holmes, and founder of Marriage Helper, Dr. Joe Beam.
Regardless of your situation, what we teach will not only make your relationships better, but will also help you to become the best version of yourself along the way.
Relationship Radio is released every Wednesday and is an extension of Marriage Helper.
Be sure to subscribe to the podcast and leave a review. We love hearing from you!
For more resources about your specific situation, visit marriagehelper.com.
We have a new website for the It Starts With Attraction podcast!
Visit www.itstartswithattraction.com to check it out!
It all comes down to having compassion for the other person and where they are and loving them into a place of positive self-esteem, so that and when. Even when we look at the research like, that is the quote-unquote cure. But how do you do that Patiently?
Speaker 2:Just the other day, this gentleman was telling me that his wife definitely was a narcissist because he had read about it, studied about it and therefore he could diagnose that she was in that situation Narcissistic personality disorder. And so I asked him, since you've read so much about it, which of the two major kinds of narcissism would you categorize her in? He looked at me with a blank look like two. You see, anytime we decide we're going to educate ourselves and this was a good guy, a very good guy, a very intelligent man but whenever we decide just to educate ourselves by Googling or looking around, reading a book here or there, we're going to miss out on some things. And one of the things that we see quite often is that some spouse will tell us my spouse is a narcissist. Usually it's because their friends have diagnosed them. My friends say my husband or my wife is a narcissist. I'm sure they're qualified.
Speaker 2:Or sometimes we get this way my counselor says that my spouse is a narcissist, to which we always reply how many sessions did your counselor have with my spouse is a narcissist? To which we always reply how many sessions did your counselor have with your spouse before the counselor made that judgment? And almost always, the answer is none. They're diagnosing a person they've never met, just off the description that you give. They're not very professional, are they? As a matter of fact, I'd question their ethics. So do you think you might be married to a narcissist? Well, let's talk about the two major kinds and get you an idea about whether or not it might be happening. I'm Dr Joe Beam, with Marriage Helper, along with Kimberly Beam Holmes, our CEO.
Speaker 1:So Kimberly, as you're finishing up your PhD work is studying narcissism, any part of that at all? Not narcissism, but self-esteem. And I ended up actually having one of the leading researchers on narcissism on my podcast, probably about a year-ish ago now, who has also done a lot of research on self-esteem, and one of the biggest takeaways I had from my conversation with him is that narcissism is something everyone has to an extent. The question really is, which way does it go? And it relates to self-esteem is bad, because if we think too highly of ourselves compared to others, then it can exhibit in a set of issues that we will experience and that is narcissism. But also having too low of self-esteem can exhibit in a different way. That is also narcissism can exhibit in a different way. That is also narcissism.
Speaker 1:You see, the way he described it was that narcissism. Like, everyone should have some degree of narcissism, because it is that drive to make sure that you are not going to be run over or treated like a doormat. It's the drive to stand up for yourself and advocate for appropriate treatment and care for yourself and advocate for appropriate treatment and care for yourself. So narcissism kind of just has this negative connotation over the past several years or I don't know, maybe since Napoleon I did not go to high school with him.
Speaker 1:No, far and apart, but it's not in and of itself a bad thing. But when we get to either extreme of it just like when we look at self-esteem in general either extreme is going to exhibit different symptoms and characteristics that are going to be difficult to manage.
Speaker 2:Now if a person is truly diagnosed as having narcissistic personality disorder.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's different.
Speaker 2:It's different. Narcissistic personality disorder, I mean, that's different. It's different, as a matter of fact, about what one. Maybe as much as 2% of the population could actually be identified as having narcissistic personality disorder, and there are other studies saying no, it's far less than 1%. And so typically, when I hear the word narcissist, I react because I'm thinking I'm pretty sure this person does not have narcissistic personality disorder. That's right. So you're differentiating between narcissistic personality disorder and this general thing called narcissism.
Speaker 1:That's right. Yes, so this isn't a perfect example, but it's kind of like how there is bipolar personality disorder and people using the term well, that person's bipolar. They're not actually bipolar personality disorder, but they have mood swings, right. So the common lingo is using bipolar for that. It's not exactly a parallel, but that's kind of one of the ways that I view it. But narcissism, literally, is one of the attributes or traits that can be measured within a person with psychological measurements.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've seen some of those online that have been validated for years. In other words, not just somebody on their own website said this is how you know somebody's a narcissist, right Okay, now I'm imagining, based on what the expert said that you had on your other podcast, that when you talk about the one that's too far to one extreme, too far to the other extreme, when you read about narcissism today, you read about the two major kinds and we're assuming now these are the ones that are not just people looking out for themselves. One's called grandiose and the other's called vulnerable. Now, I'm going to assume that those two would apply to those two extremes, because grandiose narcissism or, let's see, the more narcissistic you are on the grandiose side, the more you believe that you're on an unbelievably good, wonderful, et cetera.
Speaker 2:You're on a pedestal compared to other people and you will tell people that, yeah, you will let them know that you are great, you are wonderful, et cetera, and so you'll tend to be selfish, you'll tend to be demanding. You'll also tend to be manipulative, because you always want to get your way, and you're absolutely shocked when somebody doesn't recognize how wonderful you are, and you tend to write them off like something's wrong with that person if they can't see how great I am. Now, on the other end of that is the vulnerable narcissist, which I'm assuming is that same thing he talked about when he talked about having too little self-esteem, because the vulnerable narcissist also feels that they're very special, that they're unique, that they're one of a kind, that they're amazing, but they won't tell you about it because they're needing you to tell them that they are.
Speaker 2:And so the vulnerable, narcissist or narcissistic type personality, the vulnerable one would be the one, like you, spoke to me in a way that sounded very disrespectful. Now, they may not be telling you this, but they may be thinking this Like can't you see, I deserve more than that? Can't you see, I'm supposed to be wonderful? But the reason that they get so upset when you say something like that is because they really don't have very strong self-esteem. They believe that they're amazing, but they don't believe they're amazing, and so that leads them to also sometimes be manipulative, et cetera. But they're not going to be the one blowing their own horn, they're going to be the one expecting you to blow their horn, that you're going to build them up, and they will constantly be interpreting things negatively if you don't do that.
Speaker 2:And so if somebody were to say help me learn how to read a research article, and you give them an article and a set of five questions, if you can answer these five questions about this article, then you'll know how to read a research article and they say well, you think I'm stupid. You have to give me questions to answer. You think I'm a child, right, when all you did was try to be a teacher, but they interpreted that as no, you disrespect me. Don't you see how smart I really am? Don't you see how great I really am? And so, rather than them telling you that, they want you to tell them, and they'll interpret all kinds of things. So, if you say a nice word to them, it's like that person's totally on my side and the next day you say something that's slightly critical of them and it's like you don't know who you're dealing with here. But they have very low self-esteem while still believing very strongly in themselves.
Speaker 1:Does that sound like a contradiction? I mean it sounds like one, but I believe it's true and it's the way it plays out. Probably, as you were saying, the two different ways that these people would receive feedback or criticism is that the more grandiose person is just going to hear it and say meh and move on with their life, what do you know Right exactly Whereas the other person is going to internalize it and write a story about you and how you're the one who's wrong Absolutely, and therefore it's going to play out in there. They're actually going to come across probably very insecure.
Speaker 2:That's what they're going to appear to be, Because they really want you to tell them how wonderful they are so they can feel secure Now, personally speaking. Now basically back to the basic principle you started with that everybody has narcissism in the sense of interest in myself, taking care of myself, et cetera. And I agree with that. Interest in myself, taking care of myself, et cetera. And I agree with that. Yeah, we typically see people who are the bigger egos is the one people typically call narcissistic. My husband was a narcissist, my wife's a narcissist, et cetera, et cetera. Because it can be really difficult to deal with somebody who really thinks they're better than you are. It can be quite aggravating, but I'd actually personally rather deal with that person than the vulnerable narcissist.
Speaker 1:Because you know what you're getting with the grandiose Exactly.
Speaker 2:I can see what's going on here and I can stand up to you Like I'm not going to let you run over me.
Speaker 1:I know you think you're better than I am, but no.
Speaker 2:On one of the national television shows, they decided to interview this lady along with me at the last minute.
Speaker 2:She had a doctorate. Let's put it that way. I'm going to be very careful here. And so during the commercial we came out to be on the set and she ran in front of me so she could get the premier seat next to the interviewer and I would be sitting further from her. She ran to do that, okay. And then during the course of our program I told the interviewer that we've been able to help a lot of marriages. That a person said I'm totally done. Because the question was if one wants out, can you still save a marriage? And I said, yeah, we've had a lot of experience with that. This expert said well, you're a whole lot better than I am.
Speaker 2:And it was so difficult for me not to go. Well, yes, apparently so, but I knew that would be impolite, unkind, et cetera. But I got where she was coming from. Hey, I'm tough stuff. Okay, I can deal with people who believe that about themselves, but how frustrating is it to deal with somebody who believes you should treat them as if they're extra special and are basically interpreting everything you do or say as either building them up or tearing them down, no matter what your intent might be. How do you deal with that person?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true, because you are so right in saying that. It's like the people who are in that space where they have low self-esteem, everything you do or say in their mind is centered around them and, whether you approve of them or like them or not, it's difficult to give constructive feedback, or it's very difficult. Yes, so what was your question? How do you deal with?
Speaker 2:it. Well, I guess let's talk about the frustration for a minute. Let's say that a person listening or watching this right now is married to one of those who would be more on a vulnerable, narcissistic side. What kind of frustrations do you think they're having with that spouse?
Speaker 1:They can never say anything right or do anything right, because whatever they do, it's their spouse is going to interpret it as that they were hurtful or they were insensitive, or X, y, z. There's going to be something with everything. They're going to be exhausted.
Speaker 2:Because they never know what's the right thing to do.
Speaker 1:I never know, and it's going to be even harder if that person, if the, if the, if the, if the spouse married to the one, who's more of that vulnerable, narcissistic, uh, space is a, a strong personality that already struggles with slowing down, wanting to fully understand the other person. So there's also a personality temperament that can play into this as well, where certain personality temperaments like mine are going to get very frustrated very quickly.
Speaker 2:Because I can't be honest and open with you.
Speaker 1:Exactly exactly Like. I don't know how to please you, so at some point I'm giving up.
Speaker 2:Because even if I say something I think is completely positive and you read it as negative, all of a sudden you're telling other people how terrible I am. Right, Right, Boy, Kimberly did this, Kimberly did that, and you're looking around going what? I don't even know what you're talking about, and so okay. So what hope can we give then to couples out there if they're married to a person that would be more on the grandiose side?
Speaker 2:or a person being more on the vulnerable side, and then maybe a little bit if you are a person on more of the grandiose side or vulnerable side. So let's talk about the first. How do you deal with that grandiose spouse?
Speaker 1:Well, actually I'm going to share with how to deal with both of them. Okay, very good, because at the core of it for either one and there's actually a third type of narcissism which is less common, but I'm going to speak about that in just a second it all comes down to having compassion for the other person and where they are and loving them into a place of positive self-esteem. So that and when, even when we look at the research, like, that is the quote unquote cure. How do you do that Patiently? So I mean, it does. It takes. It takes understanding.
Speaker 1:Where did this come from? Where did the lack of self-esteem or the crazy amount of self-esteem, like what happened in their past, that led them to be this way? So again, it goes back to this awareness and understanding of another person. This can allow us to begin to have empathy, as opposed to seeing them as broken or diseased or whatever. So have empathy for how they got to where they are. And then it's lovingly like when they come to you and they're let's say it's the grandiose one, that's a little easier. So when they come to you and they're let's say it's the grandiose one, that's a little easier. So when they come to you and they say, well, I'm the best thing in the in the world, realizing there is a part of them that needs to just know that they are, that they're loved and that they're good enough.
Speaker 1:And so it's not necessarily about feeding into the yes, you are the greatest in the world, but you know what? You did that really well. And you don't always have to perform to be loved, like I still love you, even when or even if that didn't happen. Now, for the more vulnerable person, it's that understanding and then when you begin to see their them exhibit those signs of you did this, you did that. When you say, then it's being able to calm them down and say, hey, I love you and I think that you have so many great positive attributes. That is not what I meant. Let's, let's like, let's move into this. It's hard for sure.
Speaker 2:I assume that a person would only do that if they genuinely love the other person.
Speaker 1:Well, that's why it's typically a spouse yeah, so, but they'd also can be done through therapy. Therapy and that was one of the things Dr Virgil Hill and I were talking about. Dr Virgil Ziegler Hill and I were talking about was, when it comes to narcissistic personality disorder, which again is different, there is not a good treatment plan. But if anything works, it is likely therapy. But even there it's hit or miss and I can't remember now what he said. I think it's CBT. I think he said cognitive behavioral therapy is what is most helpful.
Speaker 1:Now, he didn't say this about these two helpful. Now, he didn't say this about these two. But what I would assume was it would be that cognitive behavioral therapy would be helpful because there are things that are triggering them to act out in certain ways and if they can identify those triggers with a therapist, then they can begin to rewrite in their minds how they react to that and the outcome that comes from it. So I think CBT would be the best. Now I said I was going to tell you about the third, the third type of narcissism. I can't remember what he called this one, but when he said it I thought I don't know if that's me or not, but it sounds like it was basically uh, it was basically the, a person who is very competitive and wants to win.
Speaker 1:And I think this is where I this is where I differentiated a bit, um, and because they want to win, so bad they will do whatever it takes to win. Now, I don't think I run people over to like win, but I love to win. And when he said that I thought man, I wonder how I come across to other people when I'm striving for a goal or wanting to win, and it can seem like nothing else matters. And again, it comes from self-esteem, because the self-esteem is tied to winning. But then the question is how are you, how are you coming across?
Speaker 1:And he actually said like those can be some of the sneakiest narcissist, because they can look like they're doing a lot of good things, but it but how others interact with them in that and how they treat other people through their pursuits is what can lead to the issues in the, in relationships, in relationships that they may have. So again, it goes back to self-esteem. It again goes back to compassion, like understanding. So if you have that person like me in your life who loves to win, it's the compassion towards me. So, like Rob in this situation would be able to look at me and say you don't have to like, you don't have to win everything, because you are still like, I still love you even if you don't, and so it's that compassion that can help reset how we engage in life.
Speaker 2:And so should people go around thinking my spouse is a narcissist? Is that a good, bad or indifferent Bad? Why is it narcissist? Is that a good, bad or indifferent Bad? Why is it bad?
Speaker 1:Because anytime you label your spouse, you change the way that you treat them and you change the way that you interact with them. Labeling them allows you to see yourself a bit above them and in some ways can justify actions that you take towards them because they're sick or they're broken or they have this mental thing right, like we can then justify not treating them as equals and they are our equal. Awareness Awareness, I think, is different. So being aware that your spouse may struggle with some of these things is different than labeling them. So even in counseling we're taught you do not say you are depressed, you say you're struggling with depression. It is not who the person is, it's something that they experience and it is a differentiator in how you look at and treat another person.
Speaker 2:Okay, sometimes we'll meet a spouse, but usually a woman, who is so bitter at her ex that she'll say he was a narcissist, he almost destroyed me, et cetera, et cetera. Now understand the anger because she feels that she was treated inappropriately, like without respect, without dignity, without love, that she was dominated and controlled. Sometimes they'll say I was a virtual slave to my spouse. We can understand the anger. We can also understand somebody saying I can't live like that, I've got to go someplace else. But still, even then, labeling the other person a narcissist, like you said, begins to give some justification, like he's sick or she's sick and I'm totally justified in whatever I say. Or do we tell people that all the time? If you don't look at the other person as a flawed human, you can justify anything you say about them, anything you do to them. So if we start wrapping this up, then if you're married to a person that you think is ultimately selfish I'm going to use that word a little bit now rather than the word narcissism to the point where he or she always wants their way, gets angry when they don't get it, will manipulate people to get their way and constantly wants to tell you how great and wonderful they are. You have to decide if this is the person you can live with or not. Now, if you married them, they probably were like that when you first married them, but at that point you were so much in love with each other, maybe even a point of limerence, so we talk about that. You really didn't notice those things, and now later, they become more and more problematic for you.
Speaker 2:Recommendation would be this Sit down with them, not in an attacking manner, because people will defend themselves when they get attacked, but just to say let me tell you how I feel when this happens. Let me tell you how I feel when that happens and don't let yourself be run over. Well, you shouldn't feel that way. I'm not talking about what I should feel. I'm talking about what I do feel, and I want you to understand that emotion that I feel. Now. If you do that, hopefully you can do it enough where the two of you can get along with each other wonderfully, as long as you realize that his or her imperfections are not going to instantly and immediately 100% cure. Neither will yours Now, on the other hand, cure. Neither will yours Now, on the other hand, if you're dealing with the vulnerable person who's constantly thinking anything you say or do is either uplifting them or downplaying them, then sometimes you just have to have some conversation there as well, like, I really want to tell you what I think, but I'm afraid you're going to hear it the wrong way.
Speaker 2:Therefore, let me tell you some things up front. I love you very much. Here are the strengths I see in you. Here are the awesome things blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now can I tell you something that when you do it, really I don't know how to handle it. It's like we were in public the other day and I didn't introduce you within the first 10 seconds of running into my old friend and you gave me a fit about it when we got in the car. It's 10 seconds that are important. What I'm saying is you are important to me. How can we deal with it when you feel that I am not doing for you what I need to do? Can we find a better way to deal with that than you getting upset, thinking that I think you're bad, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera? So, kimberly, these are not perfect solutions, but if you really love the person, you can put up with a lot.
Speaker 1:Well, and that's the key here, we are never going to marry the perfect person. As much as that's what our expectations were or are, and therefore we believe that can a marriage be saved even if one or both spouses are on the narcissistic spectrum Somewhere?
Speaker 2:Absolutely, since everybody is on it. Everyone is Somewhere.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and so the answer is yes, 100%, just like we believe that if you're married to someone who's suffering with depression or anxiety or panic disorder or whatever it may be childhood trauma Everyone has something that they're carrying, and so then the question is how can you learn to be there for each other and work through these issues so that you will ultimately have a stronger marriage at the end? And we believe anyone can do that with any situation.
Speaker 2:Okay, how can we help them with that?
Speaker 1:Well, call our team. We'll ask you questions and see how we can best help, because every person is different, what they're going through is different, but ultimately our team is here to talk to you and you can call and have a free conversation with our intake specialists. They are not coaches, but they will want to hear what's going on in your relationship, where your struggles are, what your goals are and ultimately they'll walk you through the different options we have of how we can best help you. And you can schedule your free call with our intake specialists by going to marriagehelpercom slash book B-O-O-K, now N-O-W, and you can find that link in the show notes, whether you're watching on YouTube or listening in the podcast, Until next week. Thank you for joining me, Dr Joe.
Speaker 2:I love being on Relationship Radio.
Speaker 1:Don't we all? And thank you, and thank you listeners, remember that there is always hope.