Relationship Radio: Marriage, Sex, Limerence & Avoiding Divorce
Relationship Radio: Marriage, Sex, Limerence & Avoiding Divorce
The Path To Rebuilding Broken Trust
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What happens when a marriage suffers from both of the top relationship killers – affairs and controlling behavior? Marcos and Elisa take us through their raw, unfiltered journey of shattered trust and the painstaking process of rebuilding it from the ground up.
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Hello, I'm Marcos.
Speaker 2:Hi, I'm Elisa.
Speaker 1:We are part of the team here at Merch Helper. Today we're going to talk about how to rebuild trust. Well, in our personal story, my wife was going through an affair. So, yes, trust was broken During my stand. She kept having that affair, so the trust was broken every day, continuously for a period of time. There were parts where when she will try to pull away from the person or try to make it work with us and it was no trust, of course, but it was no room to even try to rebuild it that she will pull away again. So it was a constant state of uh, fear, and with fear about your relationship, about when it's gonna end. No trust can be built, so it was completely shattered. Um, you also did not trust me from other motives, right?
Speaker 2:right, yeah, uh, if we start, you know, just talking about the affair. Yeah, I mean, it was impossible for him to trust me during that time, but yeah, I didn't trust that he will not control anymore. Marcus can definitely change his behavior in which he did, but do I trust that he is actually not manipulating? Do I trust that he's actually doing it for the sake of us, not just to get me back? So it was a lot of trust issues that were broken, yeah.
Speaker 1:By the way, the top reason what mages break are affairs. The second biggest reason is control, and we have both. Yeah, I know I was a humongongous controller and she was having an affair. So, yeah, the relation we could say the relation will was completely destroyed at that point yeah the how to reveal trust question has a lot of layers.
Speaker 1:A lot of people try to jump the gun and go into okay, how I'm going to trust him or her again, and that's not the point. There are a lot of things that has to happen. First Part of rebuilding trust before you even start rebuilding trust is rebuilding some other areas that they are broken. You cannot even start rebuilding trust is rebuilding some other areas that are broken. You cannot go into rebuilding trust if you guys are using horsemen and hurting each other. You need to stop the bleeding first. That will be number one. Stop hurting that person. Clean your side of the street, what I call clean your side of the street. You start doing the right things for the other person so that you stop inflicting damage to the relationship.
Speaker 1:You cannot rebuild trust while you still are criticizing, you still are pushing the other person away, things like that. So there are steps to this process on the way, things like that. So there are steps to this process In our story. We came to the workshop. She was having an affair. She chose to continue the affair after the workshop. I chose to stand for my marriage after the workshop and we could not rebuild trust at that point because we were not both of us invested in the marriage.
Speaker 1:It was just me at a point is like I found a lot of my clients in stage let's save the marriage, not let's rebuild the marriage. Um, so, during the save the marriage part, all you do is no pushes, try to vote some pools, work on yourself, work on your pies, nothing with trust. Yet if you try to impose certain boundaries, certain things, force the other person to do something, become accountable and they are not interested in, you're just gonna push them away. Everything has a place. So there are a lot of stages of that crisis that you shouldn't even try to rebuild trust, if I can say it that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And now you know, thinking back, like you know how many times did I tell you, yeah, I'll end the affair, and then that didn't happen.
Speaker 1:You know I will say that didn't happen.
Speaker 2:You know I will say okay, yeah, I'm done, I'm done, put me back in the cage. That's the words I used to use. Or I will give him my phone and then, you know, not even 24 hours later, come back and say I need my phone back. I can't do this. Let me just, you know, get out of my cage again. So can you imagine rebuilding trust in that particular moment.
Speaker 1:It was.
Speaker 2:It was impossible um until the day that I actually ended the affair when you start rebuilding the relationship is when you start rebuilding trust.
Speaker 1:It's going to be not impossible, but almost impossible, for you to try to rebuild some type of trust when one of the one or the other, or both, are still on other relationships.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. The other side of the story too is that, okay, yeah, I was having the affair, but I we came from a controlling or. You know, Marcus was very controlling, so I did not trust that he was not going to go back to that. Like, how can I trust, you know, if I'm leaving what I'm thinking or feeling that it's going to be, you know, my salvation, the rescue, you know, and thinking that I'm going for to something better in my beliefs and values, will tell me, no, that's not better for you. You know, you have to stay with your, with your spouse. You have to stay with your, with your spouse. You have to stay with Marcos. How do I know that he's not going to go back to that? So it took me, you know, a little bit of trust too. Now here's the thing with Marcos. How did I know that he was not? Was his consistency? He stayed what's the word I want to use? He stayed consistent. No, but he stayed on track. Thank you.
Speaker 1:I'm giving you the words because I want you to talk good about me. I enjoy you talking stay on track.
Speaker 2:I mean he did not lose focus of what he, what he wanted to accomplish. So that's one of the things that you know and we know. You know that it's hard not to give up when you're hurting. You know we understand that. But he didn't, you know his will was so strong that he said I'm not going to, you know, lose track, I'm going to stay on focus on that goal. And he stays very consistent. So I could not say, yeah, I'm not going to trust you because you've been consistently through maybe a year and a half a year before I actually said, okay, let's try to rebuild this. I actually said, okay, let's try to rebuild this.
Speaker 1:So some type of trust from one side can be rebuilt during the spirit, but it's going to be what we call the wavering spouse, the person who wants out of the marriage start trusting the other person and that's when you start doing all your work on your own, with your expectations low, with your hopes high, but your expectations low, which is a very hard thing to do, but it's possible. That's where I was and because of that, the person who wants out of the marriage starts thinking differently, starts seeing you in a different light, starts looking at you like, okay, this guy is not that scary anymore or whatever it is that your situation is, whatever it was that the other person moved away from you. That type of trust can be revealed, not mutual trust. That's a different stage. That's when you both decide okay, let's work on this.
Speaker 1:So there is two stages. Stage number one crisis. You with a goal in your mind. The other person can start trusting that you are going to be that guy or girl when he or she comes back to you. You cannot the person who is standing cannot demand trust at that point, because you're going to just push away the person again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's just. It's just difficult when there's a third person to rebuild trust, and that was our experience. So how do I rebuild trust If I? You know? How will Marcus trust me if I'm still in contact with the affair partner? It wasn't possible.
Speaker 1:Even when there's not a third person. In most situations that we encounter in marriage helper, there is one person who really wants to work for the marriage and the other person who wants to work less on the marriage. And until that person wants to work less on the marriage gets to a point like, okay, let's work, let's try At that point. Yes, when you're both in the same boat, then you can start. Okay, let's see how we do this.
Speaker 2:Since I was the one in the affair. I was the one not being honest. I was the one hiding things. I was the one hiding things. I remember that one of the first things that I did was, besides, sharing my feelings with Marcos and I know that was extremely tough to him, but he became a very safe place the other thing was sharing my phone. You're welcome to check my phone, you know. Hey, you know you can. You're welcome to check my phone as many times as you need. Um, you're welcome to call me when I'm out, um to see where I, where I'm at. Um, you know we agree in those. You know small, small, big things you can say as far as okay, you know I'm going here, I'm going out with my friends. You know, if you need to call me to feel safe, you can call me. You know Snapchat me or FaceTime me and I will answer. You know it will not be a problem. Emails you know check emails. I was ready to start rebuilding trust at that point.
Speaker 1:Whenever you know the affair ended and the key to that was because it has been a pass of control from my part. If I have demanded, okay, now you have to do this, you have to do that, I need to be accountable, then it will have felt like control, so I couldn't go there. It has to be a agree between both parties and it has to be agreed between both parties, not the way we used to agree before, when I will just try to get my way and she will badge and she will say okay, I knew that was the dynamic before and it's some of the the the reasons why we create a mess that we walk into later. So to me it was like okay, also be vulnerable, because I'm a have this macho man kind of way of presenting myself. I need to say look, I'm afraid, I am scared that this guy may reach you or you may have the need to reach to him and I want to feel safe. And that was, for me, was a big step. Just to become vulnerable enough to say how can you make me feel safe? I had never asked that question before to anybody in my life. Just to become vulnerable enough to say how can you make me feel safe? I had never asked that question before to anybody in my life.
Speaker 1:I have a past of not trusting people. Some of the during the worship we touch on what we call attachment styles, which kind of like touches into the reasons why you do the things that you do and how fear, you know, kind of plays a part in you trusting, not trusting allowing people to enter your life, not being dismissive, things like that and that part to me was eye-opening too. My baseline is I don't trust people just from the get-go. I have a big problem. I will meet somebody and, hmm, what do you want from me? Just from the get-go? That's my baseline because of how I was treated during my childhood. So it was an extra layer in my case in order to get to trust Elisa again. And I couldn't do it. That was one thing Try not to be controlled or not come around as controller.
Speaker 1:When we started doing this practically her circle of friends, for instance, your circle of friends they knew me, they knew my controlling nature. And let's say I'm calling because I'm triggered, because I haven't heard from my wife for three hours. And I'm calling and the one thing I ask her when she say, okay, what do you need? She offer. So I say, look, the one thing I would like to and this, I tell you my train of thought in my head but the one thing I would like is, when I call you, I call you through WhatsApp, which is an app that we have, and you will pick up and I can see your face and I can see where you are. That will bring me peace.
Speaker 1:My reasoning behind that was like, if she's meeting the guy, the guy who's going to have to duck down on the floor, and how many times is who's going to have to duck down on the floor, and how many times is he going to do that, before he says like, okay, come on, I'm done with this. That was my reasoning, honestly. And but that's what I asked. She agreed and I didn't use it often. I use it very, very seldom. I was careful not to come out of you know control again, but when I did, one time she was having lunch with girlfriends and she says she's here, he's this and that, and as soon as we got the phone, all her friends go like, why he needs to call you? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's part of the deal. She needed to defend me. Like, okay, we are rebuilding trust.
Speaker 1:We are the process of reconciliation. I want this. All those things need to happen, like we need to be able to work for each other. Yeah, to attack our triggers, diminish our triggers and bring us peace by the way we interact.
Speaker 2:One other thing that I remember, because you mentioned this at the beginning, with your triggers.
Speaker 2:Like I was going to have triggers too, I had an emotional affair with somebody for a pretty long period of time and, yes, you go through a grieving process, yes, you will miss the person and I know, you know a lot of standing spouses may not want to hear that, but that's usually the way it goes and it went that way with me.
Speaker 2:Contact my affair partner again, I will either call Marcos or call my coach, my marriage helper coach, so they will, you know, talk to me, pray with me. You know, whatever, you know, sometimes, because I felt bad telling Marcos that I, you know I was triggered to call my affair partner, I would just, you know, tell him hey, you know I'm here in traffic and I have nothing to do, and you know, I saw this person, you know she was wearing some weird stuff and we were just talking, start talking about something. I imagine that a few times he figured that I needed to talk to somebody. If not, you know. So things like that would happen and I will get triggered, you know, with a song or whatever, and you know I will have to do that. But we agree on things like that, that you know he will help me through the process.
Speaker 1:And another thing that helps rebuilding trust during the process from the standpoint of the standing spouse. Go back to another subject, which is called smart contact that we have, which is to never take more that is given to you. So I made sure that I made her feel safe by not pushing my way in. I never said, okay, how long is it going to take? How long are you going to keep thinking about these guys? Because from the moment that we decided to reconcile, I'm the one with the date, she's the one with and no date I remember to the hour when things happened.
Speaker 1:Sadly, I got a kind of memory. So from the moment that she came to me and told me look, I need closure, I'm gonna, I'm gonna work on the marriage. I just need to go and talk to you one last time. I have closure, which I thought to myself okay, she's going to go, I will never see her back, or at least not for a week. And then she comes back and goes straight to her room. We were still having different rooms, bedrooms, and she goes into her bed for 10 days or so and you slept and you took maybe two baths. You were stinking the house up.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm sorry. I don't think that's not needed to be said in the video.
Speaker 1:Too much information. You were barely eating.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you were like a zombie, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I knew I'm not going to. At that point I knew, okay, it's done. Because the way you reacted and yes, of course I'm in pain I said, wow, so much suffering for this guy that I hate his guts. But I could not force my way in. I could not say, look, let's talk about this. How come you're so somber, blah, blah, blah, let's cheer you up. I never forced my way in. I about this. How come you're so somber, blah, blah, blah, let's cheer you up. I never forced my way in. I allow her to grieve.
Speaker 1:Ten days later she comes to my bed. We have a extra king size bed. I'm a big guy and we have, you know, extra large made for us. She put herself like a two by four piece of wood on the corner of her side of the bed and started crying. And a lot of times you got to ask yourself the questions. You have to ask the questions that you don't want the answers to. That's one thing I always say. You have to ask the questions you don't want the answers to and I say, hey, we'll make you feel better if we put pillows between the bed. At that point.
Speaker 1:I don't know how long we haven't had any type of physical contact. I was desperate for it, but I'm not going to take more than what is given to me. That's part of building trust. She needs to feel safe with me. She needs to make sure that I'm not taking advantage of her In her misery which, yeah, okay, they should be miserable. Whatever you think, whatever you train your thoughts when you're in pain, they deserve this. Whatever, still, the goal, the goal, the end rebuilding your marriage. What needs to happen in order for these to work eventually?
Speaker 1:I asked the question. Before I even end asking the question, she said yes, so I put my pillows in there. We had many rules in the house. One of the rules in our house is whoever wake up later makes the bed. And, of course, on those days I was waking earlier than you. All the time you were like dragging your feet. You were not working things like that every day. I would come back home. The pillows were there underneath the blankets every day for about a month and a half or so, never said okay, how long is this gonna take?
Speaker 1:Ever I was rebuilding my friendship. I asked for my boundaries. I asked for for my triggers to be appeased by me being able to call. I asked for what she could give me.
Speaker 1:Remember when she walked, when we walked back into reconciliation mode, she didn't feel anything for me. She was still in in limerence, what we call limerence, in an attachment mode with the other person. I actually had lost all my love for her too. I mean two years of standing. I had lost my love for her. I was just standing because I'm standing, because I'm stubborn at that point, and it was no chemical connection at that point, no sparks or anything.
Speaker 1:But I never tried to impose my way. I made her feel completely safe on that end, until one day sometime later, I come back home no pillows in between the bed, I'm jumping like a kid, but still like okay, I'm scared. Oh look, we are men's men's, you will understand what I'm talking about here. I mean no contact, no physical contact, for a long period of time. She goes a month and a half. She can't start crying again.
Speaker 1:I have to ask the same question again. I definitely want to ask it one more time. I ask it again and you say no, no, it's fine. That's how you rebuild trust as well. It's not about a list of things yes, a list of things of what we can do works, but it's also about all intangibles, making the place safe for each other. And if it's only one-sided for now, it's only one-sided for now. And I'm just talking, I know I'm just talking to the standing spouses on this one.
Speaker 1:Well, it was not a turning point. It was a moment for me, you know, I felt like I could trust her more and more and more because the way she was acting, because she was investing in the relationship, it was not only okay, I want to become accountable, but she was doing the things that I asked of her in order to fulfill my needs. That was a different thing. You work on everything. The way you reveal trust is not only about accountability. You work on every single thing that we teach here and that builds trust. So she was fulfilling my needs as best as she could possibly do.
Speaker 1:That was one thing was I would still get triggered. I would still have my moments, I would still have my doubts, I would still go into some dark days, somehow, what? I will even go and check the other guy's website to see okay, what is it doing? Things like that. It kept going. It kind of started fading away. You know, we moved out of the city. We were living at one point. Right after reconciliation we have moved out of the city where we were living but I still own my company back then in atlanta where I used to live and I used to drive back to atlanta every now and then, um, because we were selling the company and it needs to be vested on all that stuff. And I remember at first my trailer was so big that 40 miles before getting to my town near Atlanta I was already having like chest pain. That's how bad it was because everything happened there. The moment I realized that I fully trust you was not actually not too long ago.
Speaker 1:I mean we went to the worship about seven years ago. We started reconciliation about four and a half to five years ago. It was last year in March that you went to Mexico with girlfriends just a girl's trip for a whole week, and you were there and then you were sending me pictures, even with a waiter there, the waiter took some pictures.
Speaker 1:He put himself in the pictures and I have no triggers. I was completely trusting that you were not gonna do anything wrong and it surprised me. I was like, wow, there's just nothing left. Um, I tell everybody I mean, I'm a coach with mary shelper and I, you know, they are going through a reconciliation process and still having all these triggers. So I'm gonna, ever gonna be able to trust my spouse? Yeah, the answer is yes for me. Yes, I got to that, but it was work. Yeah, and the work keeps going. Like we have said many times, we do everything it takes in order to protect what we have built. Seriously, we do. You know, she went to funny story. She went to that trip to Mexico with the girlfriends, went to visit the Chichen Itza pyramid, whatever it's called.
Speaker 2:Chichen, itza Chichen.
Speaker 1:Itza, there you go and she takes a picture, like everybody who goes there, takes a picture holding the pyramid right and put that on her WhatsApp profile. We run the English as a Second Language program for our county where we live right now, so she has she's the director, so she has about maybe 600 people that communicate through WhatsApp different classes and stuff like that 600 people at least 300 men. When she changed her profile picture from both of us to her with a chicken pizza within two days, yeah, something like that.
Speaker 1:A couple of guys started texting hey prof, hey teacher. I mean you look awesome in that picture, right out of the bat like eagles soaring, you know, waiting.
Speaker 2:What happened? Did she change her picture?
Speaker 1:And she comes to me running and say, look, look what they have texted me. We need to do something about it. And I'm smiling. She's trying to protect what we have built. I'm, I'm inside of me. I'm like, whoa, this is great. And she's looking for a picture where I'm gonna. We have to look for a picture. You look really big and ugly. I was like I'm like I look ugly in every picture.
Speaker 1:Okay, let's let's try our hardest. And she found a picture when I'm actually behind her, one step higher, so I look like a seven foot guy and she's there and she put that picture. And, man, those things is the. Those are the moments I like. Yeah, we are in a place that we want to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:And that trip to Mexicoxico. Yeah, I felt no triggers, I felt no worries, I was completely at peace, doing my thing at home while you were having fun in mexico yeah, my turning point, um, it was before.
Speaker 2:Um, it was before my affair ended. It was one of those days that I could not take it anymore. One of the things that we teach here at Marriage Helper is about cognitive dissonance. And I was leaving. It was my beliefs and values and my behavior and they were very contradicting, and so I lived there for a while. I came one day and just started talking.
Speaker 2:Marcos had become such a safe place for me in that and all that time, like after, you know, coming to the workshop, he didn't do it that well at first, but then he got really good at it, so he made it very safe. Like he said, he became my friend that before he was not. So he really changed his behavior towards me and towards everybody. But anyway, so one day I was, I was feeling really down. You know, we have moved to a different state. I missed the guy. I missed him and I didn't have anybody to tell him. He could tell that there was something wrong with me. So he came and he asked the question tell that there was something wrong with me? So he came and he asked the question what's going on? I knew I could trust him and I, you know, inside of me, I'm like I don't want to hurt you. Like you know I hurt you enough already. Please like leave me alone. And he's like no, I'm okay, you know, you can, you can tell me. And so I just went like blah, like I miss him. I miss him, you know, I love him. I thought of a future with him so many things that it was painful. I mean, I knew it was painful for him. Engagement rings.
Speaker 2:His reaction was just so the old Marcos would have. The old Marcos would have just killed me right there, probably, or throw me out the window or just tell me you know, get out of my house, get out of my life. That would have been the old Marcos. He just sat there and I'm not saying that maybe inside of him and he could tell you this that his blood was just, you know, boiling most likely. But he did not react. He just kept a poker face and did not react. So when I saw that, you know and I wasn't doing it to test him I was actually having a bad day. But when you know, going through, that was like whoa, like you know, I could say pretty much anything. What else could I have said right, I could say anything to him and he is just so graceful and peaceful and you know, here to hold my hand and to say, hey, it's going to be okay and that's just. It was overwhelming good, overwhelming.
Speaker 1:Well, it's not about becoming a robot. Okay, you're entitled to your feelings. You're entitled to your emotions. Okay, you are entitled to your feelings, you're entitled to your emotions. Stuff that she was telling me hurts and I felt the pain and it was really bad, to the point that at some point I just couldn't think anymore it's not about the poker face and like, just take it for taking it. I mean you can say, look, this really hurts, which I think I say this really hurts. And then I say something along the lines like it's going to be okay, we can do this. And then I say I hope one day you can love me like you love this guy, get to love me like you love this guy. And then I asked to we have a dog, his name is Max. He's still with us. And I asked to hey, anything you want to tell me? And she said no, no, she thought maybe if I say one more thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she will throw me out the window.
Speaker 1:And then I said, hey, let me kind of go walk, max, and I went to look, you're in pain, I get that. Okay, it's not about putting all your hurt in a jar and covering up and try to to don't leave that to block your emotions. I went out walking max max was looking at me. I just beat the crap out of every mailboxes and on the street two blocks out, until actually the next day, I'm driving with my car out and I see one mailbox going like sideways, like okay, I hope they don't have cameras in the front yard or anything like that, because I'm doomed. But it's not about you're not gonna feel. I mean, even if you work on your pies, even if you do everything to get to a level of peace which it works, pies works. What we teach about pies works wonders. It worked for me. I hope we can do another video about pies soon because it does wonder for you.
Speaker 1:But still your spouse will say things that they will throw you around in circles and at that point is I'm not going to allow my feelings to run me against my goal. I'm going to act and react accordingly to what I have learned, to what I know is right to do. That night we had a conversation about a year and a half later. We didn't talk about that. She was still having the affair. She never told me what she thought about me. I thought she was still gone, that whatever I had done did not count it. About a year and a half later we had this conversation where she tells me something along the lines like that night was the night that I thought to myself the guy I'm running from treats me better than the guy I'm running to, and that's kind of part of rebuilding trust. When you are still in crisis, you become the safe place for that person.
Speaker 2:Make sense. Well, at the workshop, they gave us many, many tools on how to help rebuild trust. I will say that, for one of the things that helped us the most was working with a coach. You know she will tell us yeah, this is maybe something that you should do. This is something that you may want to wait a little bit to ask. So it's a process. Okay, it's not something, it's not a light switch, it's not something that you can just say, like Marco said earlier, like okay, yeah, we're trusting each other now. No, because you came out of a lot of pain, a lot of frustration, and so it's a process. The workshop gave us really good tools on how to go through that process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Now I am a coach with Mary Schoeper. Now I've been a coach for almost four years now 300-something years and coaching does wonders. But the worship that we can use, the thing that gives you I mean coaches will have to take 70 sessions in order to let you know, teach you what happens there. On three days In our case.
Speaker 1:I came out of the workshop with a completely different time, I mean frame of mind. It changed me. I came in thinking change her, fix her. And I came out thinking change her, fix her. And I came out thinking I got a lot to work on before I even tried to do anything here. I need to clean my side of the street. And she got out of the workshop thinking I'm still out, great stuff, but I'm going to grab this and take off. I don't want anything to do with him. And it's still. A seed was planted in her head of doubt about their relationship and of hope that, hey, even in the midst of a lot of things, there is a path to reveal. It's about when she got out all the knowledge that she got. It could not be refuted. It was like do I want to or not? And at that point for her it was like it's not that I can't anymore, it's just I don't want to. That's a different mindset.
Speaker 2:It's a lot of facts, there's a lot of facts that you cannot. You know, it's like numbers, numbers will not change. So this is pretty much like that. You know, they give you, we give you facts that you cannot refute. You cannot say no, this is not right, there's just factual.
Speaker 1:So I mean I encourage you guys to go to MidgeHerbertcom. Slash all C-A-L-L. Check us out, Learn more about us.
Speaker 2:There's a lot more to learn.
Speaker 1:Thanks for watching. We'll see you guys again in another video.
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