Relationship Radio: Marriage, Sex, Limerence & Avoiding Divorce
Relationship Radio: Marriage, Sex, Limerence & Avoiding Divorce
She Chose Chaos Over Me... And I Let Her
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He did everything “right”—worked hard, stayed loyal, provided for his family.
But when his wife left him for his own brother… he didn’t fight.
He tried to understand. He felt bad for them.
And somehow, he believed that was love.
In this real-life conversation from Marriage Helper, we unpack the painful truth behind passive behavior in marriage—and how it often pushes a spouse away more than anything else.
This isn't just a story of betrayal. It’s a wake-up call for anyone who’s given up their identity in the name of sacrifice… and lost their marriage in the process.
You'll discover:
Why empathy without boundaries can become self-sabotage
How passivity kills attraction
The real difference between panic and passion
And why ownership is the turning point between wishing and winning
Whether you're in a marriage crisis or stuck in survival mode, this episode is your invitation to stop letting life happen to you—and start choosing who you want to become.
If you're struggling in your marriage, don’t wait. Get our FREE resource: The 7 Steps to Rescue Your Marriage 👉 https://marriagehelper.com/free
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You may wonder sometimes what kind of phone calls we get for people who call us at Marriage Helper MH International, to be technically correct, people who are looking for help of one kind or another, and we have decided to give you information about a few of those calls Now. We'll be very careful to protect the identity of the caller, and the reason that we're doing this is because of the fact that you may recognize your own situation in some of these calls that we deal with and you may get some good ideas about how to proceed if your situation is similar, or good ideas even if your situation is dissimilar, by listening to what other people have to say and how they think. Now our special guest is Nathan McIntyre. He works with us at Mary Shelper. Indeed, how long have we worked together?
Speaker 2:It's been a couple of years now, believe it or not. Sometimes it feels like 20, and sometimes it feels like five minutes. It just depends on what's for lunch, I guess.
Speaker 1:But we've known each other for a long time About 20 years, about 20 years. I'm glad you're finally working with us Now. Nathan is one of the folks on our team that will actually deal with people who call in with their situations. Now, as we've already said, we'll protect identities, which means that we'll change some of the irrelevant facts Right, just so we can disguise people.
Speaker 2:But the main things you'll talk about actually happen. This is identities changed to protect the innocent, but OK. But the truth, yeah, the truths are there, are there.
Speaker 1:These are not fictional stories. I just had an interesting call today. I understand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, here very recently, not today, but very recently, yeah, speaking with a gentleman who called me very, very emotional, very distraught. He had his, his wife had decided that she'd had enough and, uh, a couple of weeks prior, she had uh, packed up a bag and he had left or she had left.
Speaker 1:Now, when you say he was emotional, what kind of emotions were you?
Speaker 2:hearing Very, very frantic. You can pick up on somebody's mental state. When you've done this as long as I have, you can pick up on somebody's mental state very quickly.
Speaker 1:Uh, it was like panic yeah you could.
Speaker 2:It was da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. You are. That's not what I do. I'm more of the person at the front gate making sure that you go down the right street once you're in the door. And so this person was just frantic, super, barely even got to say hello before they just, you know, didn't even take their shoes off before they made a plate right. So at the end he starts telling the story about how his wife his wife is gone and she's got the kids and she's doing all this. And then he had to. Finally, I had a moment to let him take a breath and I said hi.
Speaker 1:Oh, so all of that was just as soon as you said. Hello, yeah. Oh, yeah, so all of that was just as soon as you said hello yeah.
Speaker 2:And he explained to me that his wife had left and she's having an affair that he had discovered, like I said, about two weeks prior. Now the issue, and before we get to the main issue, he described his life and I asked him kind of, tell me the story of his marriage, the 30,000-foot view Nobody knows what a Reader's Digest view is anymore of their marriage and he's the classic story. He's the steady, works every day, never gotten in any trouble, never had a parking ticket. He just does his duty, he works and he's a good dad and he does the parent activities. And just a super nice guy. Gave everything to his family, everything to his wife Asked, no questions made, no waves. His favorite pudding might as well be tapioca.
Speaker 1:All right, so this is a guy that you're describing as bland.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and those were his words, not mine.
Speaker 1:I'm assuming his wife was not.
Speaker 2:Well, she found somebody who was not bland. The problem was this not bland person was his brother. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, so the husband's brother.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness, yeah, so the husband's brother?
Speaker 2:Yeah, the husband's brother.
Speaker 1:And when she moved out, did she move in with the brother? Yeah, she moved in with the brother and took her kids with her Mm-hmm. I assumed then that her brother was not married.
Speaker 2:The brother was not married. He had had his own string of issues and she, you know, and truly he had had a rough story as well. Now, what's interesting to me is, as we're exploring the story, the gentleman that I was talking to did something really interesting, something I don't experience very often During the call. During the call, he started talking to me about his brother's story. He started telling me all about the trials that his brother had seen, how his brother's business had fallen apart and how his brother's life had been so difficult and how his wife very much wanted to take care of his brother. She just felt like she really needed to reach out to him and take care of him and I could feel empathy.
Speaker 1:So he was saying empathy not just toward the brother but toward his wife wanting to take care of the brother.
Speaker 2:I was feeling a lot of empathy towards his brother, Okay, A lot of empathy, Almost to the point of where you could feel like he was forgetting that this man was also his wife's affair partner. Wow, and I asked him. I said stop for a moment, you do realize it, and look anybody who ever speaks with me. Also, I'm going to ask for permission to be straightforward with you. I said can I just, can I just level with you? Can we just have like a real talk? And he said sure, sure.
Speaker 2:I said you're talking about the guy who's sleeping with your wife, You're not just talking about your brother and you feel bad for him. He said well, yeah, he's got a, a tough life and he's had his business fell apart and he's had all these other things happen. He went through an entire litany of basically a country song, right, and he goes. And then he said even to the point where and I'm just sitting there flabbergasted listening to this. And then he said, and I even offered to counsel him with my wife, I even offered to reach out and let's work together, I said during the affair. He said well, that's just a detail, the affair is just a detail. The affair is just a detail. The affair is just a detail.
Speaker 2:I said, well, if the affair is just a detail, then why are we talking? And he said, If it doesn't matter, I mean, are you, are you in an open marriage now? Is that what I'm hearing? You say he goes. Oh, no, no, no, I'm heartbroken over this. Then why are you just giving all the emotion to your brother? And he kind of stopped for a minute. He said well, he is my brother. He said, yeah, but he's sleeping with your wife. You love your brother or your wife more? Are you fighting for your brother or are you fighting for your wife?
Speaker 1:That's an interesting question. What did he say?
Speaker 2:Well, he thought for a minute he goes well, I've never really thought about it that way. He said, yeah, is it possible? You've never really thought about fighting for anything? When is the last time you fought for anything? That's a good question. Yeah, and he started thinking back. He goes well, I. And he started stuttering. I, um, I, uh.
Speaker 2:I said because you've you've always been a dutiful employee, you ever just take a day off because you just want to go get on a four-wheeler. No, no, I've got to be on you ever. You ever just take your kids out of school for a day and go to an amusement park or anything. Just blow it off, have a good time one time. No, no, no. You and your wife ever take a staycation just because you go find somewhere fun, go up in a chalet and just get away. You ever do something fun. No, no, I mean, we've got our responsibilities and all that and your wife is just overloaded with responsibility taking care of you because you're spent. You've given your whole life away. How did he respond to that? He stopped for a minute. You could tell. You could hear the wheels turning. The anxiety turned into this really kind of mossy, damp guilt, and I wasn't trying to make him feel guilty. That wasn't my point at all. What was your point? My point was I wanted him to ask himself why his wife left in the first place.
Speaker 1:Okay, did you also want him to ask himself why he was being so blasé about it?
Speaker 2:Well, I knew why he was being blasé, because blasé was what he did. He was afraid of getting passionate about anything. He had never been passionate about much, but he did panic, so he did and could feel emotion.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, he definitely could feel emotion, but a lot of the people that I talk to there's a big difference and maybe, if you're listening to this, maybe you know the difference. Passion and panic are two totally different things. There's a difference between fire and fear when you're running from something or running at something. That's the difference in passion and panic. So panic is running from, passion's running toward. And I asked him had you ever fought for anything, had you ever been passionate about something? Because he described his brother's life and this is one part that I neglected to mention earlier. He described his brother early on as being a very passionate outgoing guy who'd had a hard luck. He had a hard time and then that's when his business fell apart and all that. And I pictured here is this man who you know, he's Mr Rogers, without the following.
Speaker 1:And this is the guy who called you the husband.
Speaker 2:The husband is Mr Rogers, but his, his cardigan is taupe, right, so he's, he's there. And then over on the other side is his brother. Looks like the front man from Metallica, right, he's cool and he's doing all these things and he's vibrant, but he's had a bad stretch of luck Over here. This guy's never had an opinion. This guy's never done anything on his own, never risked anything, always thought his duty was to lay down for his family, and over here was a man who needed rescuing.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm curious here If she'd basically been taking care of her husband for X number of years, isn't that the same emotion being touched if she wants to go rescue the brother, or is it a different one?
Speaker 2:You know, you think about that and I have to ask myself if there was a potential, if the difference is in potential. There was a potential, if the difference is in potential because her, the difference between her husband, who had never been wounded or who had not, who had never made a decision, never challenged anything, was that he also wasn't wounded. That was his status quo. Over here, you had somebody with immense potential, but the reason he was down was he was wounded. Over here, His potential is so greater and she can nurse him back.
Speaker 1:What I'm hearing and correct me if I'm wrong is that you're talking about the fact that brother hit two main things that are attracted to women. One is passion, strength. I'll try this, I'll try that I'm a person who is alive and vibrant and vigorous, and et cetera, right. And then the other thing that tends to draw women is oh, I need to heal you, I need to help you get well. And while those things may sound contradictory, as you're showing here, they can indicate at the very same time, because she felt useful, she felt valued, I'll rescue this guy. But apparently saw him, brother, as being the kind of person she wanted to rescue, as opposed to him husband, who was just blah.
Speaker 2:He's just there and I asked him. I said he's weeping by this point at one point on the phone and he's weeping saying I just can't believe that she would do this to us and I feel horrible for the man.
Speaker 1:I would never exonerate her choice. Yeah, as a matter of fact, if we're coming across like we're trying to blame the guy, don't misunderstand.
Speaker 2:No, not at all.
Speaker 1:We're going to say something else about it in just a minute. That we hope is going to be extremely helpful. But when we talk about a particular client, a potential client, we will get very honest, like where's the flaw, where's the strength, where's the problem? And so don't think we're actually beating him up. Our heart is with him, but there's also something there that he could have done differently and potentially still could.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's the key, because you have to ask yourself in any situation like this. And I'm asking him what has he done that got him to this place? But here's the thing I can't tell him what it was. He has to understand it in and of himself. He has to find it. Because his wife now is seeing herself as needed by someone whose potential she sees as upward. She's buying low. It's that old buy low, sell high thing, right. So she's wanting to invest low, but she feels important.
Speaker 2:And over here, her husband, who's always just seen her as somebody that he's got a duty to, is no excitement whatsoever. And I asked him. I said so who are you tell me about, who you are? And he was like well, I started talking about his job. And I'm a dad and I'm a husband, I just can't believe. And he would keep going. I can't believe she would do this. I can't believe she would do this. I said why can't you? Who are you? Just can't believe she would do this. I'm heartbroken. I can't believe. Who are you? He goes well, I guess I just don't know. I said well, why can't you believe that she would do this If you've spent all these years asking her to tell you who you are.
Speaker 1:She eventually got tired of it, and the brother at least knew who he was, even if he was failing and had pain.
Speaker 2:Even if he was failing and had pain, the brother was not asking her to define him. Everything the husband had done was to get. It was all for somebody outside of himself to give him value. He had spent his entire life sacrificing, giving away his value. And the problem is, if you spend your entire life letting everyone else define your value, you are telling them that you have none.
Speaker 1:everyone else, to find your value. You are telling them that you have none and eventually Actually demonstrating it that you have none. Now I realize what I'm about to say in the current environment, when we're making this video is politically incorrect. But there definitely are differences between men and women, and I'm not talking about just biologically, I'm not talking about plumbing and hip structure. I'm talking about the way they think, the way they feel, et cetera. Now, there are variations within men and variations within women. So don't think I'm ignoring that. But women tend to be drawn toward men they perceive as strong, even if that strength is not necessarily stable. Am I right or wrong about that?
Speaker 2:Well, typically speaking, I think I mean let's put it this way no one is attracted to someone that they see as weak. I think that strength is absolutely an appealing thing and, depending on a number of other factors the stability factor you can either give it or take it. Some people's unstable is, another person's exciting and, trust me, I meet enough of those. And in this case and in this case the wife, I believe while the brother might have a great element of instability, he also has an element of strength coming back.
Speaker 1:Because if he had been weak she probably wouldn't have been attracted to go try to heal him Right. So she's attracted to his masculinity and his need for somebody to take care of him. And she sees that because many women see themselves in a mothering role. Or I will take care of you, I will nurture you Right.
Speaker 2:And the problem is with her husband. She had truly gone full mother with him and he had his, his pattern. His behaviors had been only to give away that value, that definition of who he was to her. And he realized while we were talking that she had never asked for the right to define him. He had willingly given it away. And not only given it away, but he was requiring her to define him to the point where she didn't want that responsibility and left. And what's interesting to me is, as we talked about he's having all these realizations and it was getting really deep and you could tell that a lot of good was happening. I challenged him and we agreed on it and we were talking about what it would look like to change.
Speaker 2:And then the fear kicked in, because the problem with being a self-sacrificer is that you also will always have a cop-out. What does that mean? What that means is you don't ever have to take responsibility for yourself if you always have somebody else to sacrifice for. You know, I would take time for myself, but I'm a working dad and I've got a family, okay, so the cop-out is avoiding being manly. It could be any number of things. I've talked with men and women. So when I talk to myself sacrificing women, the moms, you know I would take this time and do this for me, but my husband would never let me. When, in fact, that may or may not be true, but the fact is she gets to blame him and she doesn't get to challenge herself. She gets to stay safe and she gets to be a victim, same with the man. It's not a gender thing. It could be men or women, and we hear it every day, every single day, cop-outs, cop-outs.
Speaker 2:Not my fault, not my fault, I would get the help. You're right. We've had a great conversation. Thank you so much. I've come to this realization now I've decided to do nothing. That's my realization, and in this case I spoke with him. We have the availability, we have the possibility to be able to let help start immediately. You know, that sounds great, and then I heard the exhale. But I just really need to think Now.
Speaker 2:The problem is a lot of people mistake the fact that when they're talking to me they don't think they've already done their research. I tell people hi, I'm research all the time, but after he's taken this time and he's felt like he's done something, then he needs the safety of actually not deciding. And then a lot of people not just this husband, but a lot of people want the safety of not having to decide. And I tell people all the time that the distance or the spot between want and achievement is ownership. Explain it may be. And then the spot where you've attained it, that's a different spot on the line. The place where it begins to become yours is what you're willing to take ownership of. When you take an actionable choice, when you actually do something to take ownership of your want, it then becomes your goal or then becomes your achievement.
Speaker 1:Or something you can achieve.
Speaker 2:Yes, you're starting on the process. It's not a guaranteed outcome, but it then becomes possible. Without ownership, a want is never possible.
Speaker 1:So my wanting I'll take it to a very mundane level my wanting to lose weight and then saying the reason I don't is because my wife is such a great cook, is a cop-out yes, when the ownership would be. I'll never lose weight until I take actions that will lead to that.
Speaker 2:Even. Furthermore, the ownership would be something. Now, if any of you know anything about Alice's banana bread, this would be a gargantuan feat. The ownership here, in your case, would be saying no more baked goods. That would be, or extremely limited under certain circumstances, because I would never put you into that. But you get the point, yeah it has to be practical, all right.
Speaker 1:Well, let's just take this out further, toward where you've been going In a workshop I did. It had all men in it. I asked the men how many of you have had your wives say to you be a man? Nearly every hand went up. And then I said and how many of you? When you try to be a man? Your wife said you're controlling and dominating. Nearly every hand went up and I said so what I'm hearing and tell me if I'm wrong or not is that your wife doesn't see you as being manly. And when you do what you think, that means it comes across badly. And they said yeah, that's pretty much it Okay. So in a situation like this, where you want people to take an ownership, that kind of thing, how can they be manly and I realize I'm throwing this at you without any preparation but how can they be manly without and I realize I'm throwing this at you without any preparation but how can they be manly without being dictatorial?
Speaker 2:Well, the first thing in this case is you have to ask yourself or at least if I were him okay, I'm thinking outside myself here, but in his situation you have to ask yourself what attracted her to the other man, what attracted her to his brother, what is the archetype that she's going to? She's looking at someone who was a go-getter. You know, quote unquote a go-getter, somebody that made decisions, somebody that owned a business, somebody that did all of these things. And then you have to ask if you're him, you say, well, what does that person do? Now, you don't impersonate somebody that you're not, but if that person is somebody that makes decisions, then you have to be willing to make decisions.
Speaker 1:Okay, no, I get it Like okay, what is she being drawn to? But at the same time, it's got what is she leaving? What is it that she doesn't want to be part of? And what I've heard you say throughout this interview is his being lackadaisical in the sense of life. He's a very responsible man, does his job and people would look at him as an ideal person. Look at this guy. If he says he'll do it, by golly he's going to do it.
Speaker 2:He's our company man, because he's there and he'll obey and et cetera.
Speaker 1:But if we're looking for somebody to take on a new project and be a passionate leader, he ain't the guy.
Speaker 2:He's not the guy, no-transcript. He needs to make a decision. He has been so used to handing his decision-making off to everyone else, including his wife.
Speaker 1:But hasn't he, by default, made a decision by giving empathy to his brother and his wife and apparently not being upset that his brother is sleeping with his wife? Isn't that a decision in and of itself?
Speaker 2:It's an allowance because he gets to be a victim there too. You see, what happens is, if you allow these things to happen, you still get to be poor, pitiful me, you still get to hang yourself on your own little cross and say I cared for the person that offended me. I cared for the person that offended me. Yet the subtitle, the tiny little part, the little block underneath the movie title that nobody ever reads, said and I caused all of it myself.
Speaker 1:All right. So if he comes to one of our workshops, what part of our workshop, what part of what we teach, what part of what we do, would be something that's essential for this guy.
Speaker 2:Pushes and pulls are a huge part, because you know, and and and I want to, by the way, I want to say, when I say sarcastically, I caused all of it myself. To reiterate, I'm not blaming him for every single thing. He didn't know where it was leading Right and her actions are her actions. She chose to do what she chose to do Exactly. But I believe that, first of all, pushes and pulls, I believe, are a huge part of this. Learning about the behaviors that caused her to be in the mindset that made her want to leave, that's huge. Being able to learn the value in making a decision on your own and how that turns you into an attractive person. Being able to say you know what, if something doesn't make sense, then dang it, I'm not going to do it. I'm going to stand up for myself.
Speaker 2:The idea of being a man is not toxic, it's not brutish, it's just an idea. It's just an idea where I'm going to see a value in what I want and I'm going to claim that and I'm going to stand by that. And if you have to give reasons why, here the reasons why and do that and guess what, that's attractive. Just like no man wants a woman that just says whatever you say dear all the time. And the opposite is just as true, right, exactly, at the end of the day, that's part of pushes and pulls at how it ties into the pies what we teach about attraction learning how to state your own value, not just with words but with actions, with how you communicate yourself, how that then, when you start acting a certain way, it clears your mind so that you believe.
Speaker 2:When you begin to believe you are something and you act that way, you become that thing.
Speaker 2:And when you become that thing, even if it's not radically different but just substantively different from who you were before, then the spouse that left realizes that that was their mistake and they can come back. And it also, by the way, byproduct puts you in a place where you don't receive them with resentment and retribution, but with maturity and with grace, because there was a resentment that he already had towards her, because it's amazing how many people hand off their identity and have all this duty towards everyone else and they just, very quietly, are just desperate. It's the old Pink Floyd line, you know, hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way. It's just, he hated his life the whole time. So if you hate your life the whole time, get rid of it, do different things, and then when she realizes because look, limerence always ends. So when that changes and she comes back, you're not receiving her with Freddy Krueger gloves, you're receiving her with warmth and with grace and with love and in a real masculine way.
Speaker 1:What you're saying and what we definitely believe in marriage helper, is this it's not about one person dominating the other, no matter which gender he or she is, but but when you come across to your spouse and I'm talking particularly to men now when you come across as Casper Milk Toast, you're just laid back, easygoing, to the point. You see, I can't tell you how many women have said this to me. If I even say, let's go to lunch, where would you like to go, my husband will always say wherever you wish, and you think, well, he's just being polite. But that pattern I've heard this from many women over the last year that pattern is I need you to make some kind of decision in life, even that. And if she says I don't want to go there, let's go here. At least you're still operating as two individuals in equality. It's not one bashing the other controlling individuals in equality. It's not one bashing, the other controlling. But if you're always abdicating, I'm just going to do what I'm supposed to do. That said, you make the decisions.
Speaker 1:Woman after woman after woman in the last year has told me I can't stand that I lose respect for me and, as you've been describing in this situation many, many times I have then seen this woman fall for a guy who was strong. I even asked one of them. I said is it because of the fact that this guy is going to be your leader and is going to make all the decisions? She said no, no, no, no, no. It's because I want somebody who treats me as an equal, and you can't treat me as an equal when you're subservient to me.
Speaker 2:And what's interesting is that so many of those people that don't and it occurred to me now so many of those people that don't make those decisions that are always like whatever you think, whatever you think, they don't do it out of respect, they do it because they're afraid Possible, they do it because they're afraid of offense, or do it because they're afraid of making a mistake. And if you are that person, then you are already putting yourself in an unequal position.
Speaker 1:Could it not also be people who really aren't involved? Could be Like that's a sign that I'm really detached from you.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Then here comes the dismissiveness and all of the avoidance and all of that it's a long conversation is this gentleman, the husband? His fear won and we talked and I gave him some space, because some people look, you know, I'm not here to force anybody to do anything. Why teach them on how to pull if you have to push right? So gave him some space and, um, interestingly enough, uh, he went on a retreat that weekend and said he had come back after clearing his head and decided to get started. And he came back and said that, um, he was just going to keep doing what he was doing and hope was going to be his strategy, and that he just needs to make sure to not rock any bones and that sometime, you know, somehow, this time doing the exact same thing, we're going to be totally different.
Speaker 1:That to me sounds like when I was diagnosed with the prostate cancer and they said it's an aggressive kind, we can't just watch it, we have to treat it. If I said, no hope, I'm just going to hang on to hope. But we have this proton radiation therapy, we have these pills you need to take. No, I'm just going to exist on hope. And then if the stuff killed me, I would have said well, at least I hoped.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting to me. I talk with so many people and let's use your cancer as a case for this I speak with so many people that would say you know what? I'm just going to wait on the Lord. Well, maybe God gave you the proton therapy Exactly. Have you ever considered that? That's how I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I had a lady on the phone one time. She said I just really need to pray about this, I really need to think about it. And look, I'm not making light of your prayer life at all. I say the same prayer every morning when I come in here. But I asked her. I said what are you going to pray for? You could tell she was very avoidant too. She was very fearful. She had had an interesting story. I said what are you going to pray for? She said I just need to know what God wants me to do. I said okay, can I ask you some questions on that? She said yeah, yeah, yeah. How do you know when God tells you she goes? Well, it's just, you just know, and it's a good feeling, and it's Do you think God wants you to save your marriage?
Speaker 2:She said well, that's what he says. Yeah, have you already been praying about it, or did it just occur to you to pray? No, I've been praying, for in her case it was six months. We're trying to help save your marriage. Has it ever occurred to you that this might be the answer you've been praying for? It's the old adage of you're sitting on the top of the house with the waters coming up and you pray for God to save you from the flood, and he's already sent you a boat and a kayak. Here comes the helicopter. It's time to get on board.
Speaker 1:And I absolutely am convinced that you don't always have a good feeling to do what God wants you to do. I mean, Jesus would say when you go out this is Matthew, chapter 9 and 10, when you go out and start preaching this good news, they're going to hate you, they're going to kill you. I don't think they went.
Speaker 2:Yay, Didn't he say a crooked and perverse generation is looking for a sign, right.
Speaker 1:Anyway, we could go on forever about all that, but sometimes it's courage that it takes, All right. So let's wrap this up. We're talking particularly to men in this particular session, although it's very applicable to women. What we're looking for in a relationship is equality, not dominance. But it's not equality when the other person sees you as being totally docile, that you're just kind of there and you're not really contributing. You might be bringing the money home, you might be providing a good shelter, but when it comes to life, you're avoidant of making decisions, of doing things. So it's not domination, it's not dictatorship, it's actually inequality. Now, our primary product that we in service that we have that does the most good is our couples workshop, where you and your spouse come together, but occasionally about once a quarter, I think I do a workshop just for husbands and we'll be doing one of those, jason, is it in the month of June?
Speaker 2:I'll be doing one of those June 13th June 13th, nathan knows I should have known.
Speaker 1:You would know, june 13th, and while the couples workshop is far superior, that's what we want people to come to. If you're a guy and you're thinking I need to understand more about this, god willing, unless something bad happens, I'm going to be leading that workshop, and so how do they get in contact with us?
Speaker 2:Marriagehelpercom slash call.
Speaker 1:Okay, slash call and you can get to the right person. It might be Nathan, it may be one of the folks that work with Nathan, and we'd love to invite you to the couples workshop so you can learn how to do this quality and neither one of you is dominant, that you're both equal but equally strong, although you'll also be equally weak, because nobody's perfect. Or, if you guys are saying no, I think I want to come to that men's one, then it's June 13th. June 13th weekend, friday through Sunday. Okay, so tell again how they can get in touch with us. Marriagehelpercom. Slash call. That's simple enough. Thank you very much, nathan. Yeah, thanks, john. It's always a pleasure to talk to you. Likewise, you make me think of things, things I like, that I like. That Beats the alternative. No, at my age, sometimes I can just sit. Okay. Thank you very much for being with us. We want to help where we possibly can.
Speaker 2:Please contact us.
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