How We Saved Our Marriage After An Affair And Addiction

Learn how they saved their marriage after an affair and addiction, even after 25 years of what looked like a "perfect" life. In this raw and honest interview, Aaron and Rena Garcia open up about the secret pornography addiction and infidelity that nearly destroyed their family, and the specific steps they took to rebuild trust from the ground up.

If you are asking, "Can a marriage survive infidelity?" or "Is it possible to heal from betrayal trauma?" this video provides a real-life roadmap. Aaron, a former pastor, lived a secret double life for decades, while Rena was completely blindsided by the discovery. They discuss the intense physical reality of betrayal trauma (flooding), the shame of addiction in the church, and why they believe leaving isn't always the "easier" option.

In this video, we answer hard questions like:

• How do you rebuild trust after cheating?
• What does real healing look like for a betrayed spouse?
• Why does the "good guy" or spiritual leader fall into addiction?
• How long does it take to save a marriage after an affair?

Rena and Aaron’s story proves that while trust is lost in buckets, it is earned in drops. With the right help, including the Marriage Helper workshop, they didn't just go back to their old marriage... they built a new, stronger one.

If you're struggling in your marriage, don’t wait. Get our FREE resource: The 7 Steps to Rescue Your Marriage 👉 https://marriagehelper.com/free

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Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Aaron And Raina
• 1:40 A Happy Marriage With Hidden Cracks
• 3:03 Pornography, Secrecy, And Ministry
• 5:00 Discovery Day And Immediate Fallout
• 8:30 Shock, Trauma, And Physical Symptoms
• 11:00 Separation, Moving, And Staying Or Leaving
• 13:20 Confession, Job Loss, And Consequences
• 16:00 Why He Chose Recovery Over Escape
• 18:00 Anger, Empathy, And Daily Repair
• 20:30 Boundaries, Accountability, And Safety
• 23:00 Slow Trust Rebuilding And Setbacks
• 25:00 Five Years Later: New Tools And Growth
• 27:10 Emotional Intimacy And Partnership
• 29:20 Guidance For The Betrayer And Betrayed
• 31:30 Timeframes, Choosing Your Hard, And Hope
• 34:00 Limerence, Reality Checks, And Closing

Transcript

SPEAKER_04: 0:00

All right. I'm gonna start with easy questions. Can you tell me your names?

SPEAKER_00: 0:05

I'm Aaron Garcia.

SPEAKER_04: 0:08

And I'm Raina Garcia. How long have y'all been married? 25 years. 25 years. Like you've hit 25 years. Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 0:15

Yes. We'll be at 26 years in June.

SPEAKER_04: 0:17

Okay. How many kids do you have? Five. Yeah? Aging from 35 to 6 years old. So there's a kid that's 10 years older than what you that was 10 years old when you got married. Yeah. She is adopted into our family.

SPEAKER_00: 0:34

She came in as a teenager. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_04: 0:37

So how would you describe your marriage for the past 25 years?

SPEAKER_01: 0:44

Well.

SPEAKER_00: 0:47

Let's see. We had a good marriage.

SPEAKER_03: 0:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 0:52

You know, we had kids, we had consistent work. Our health was usually good. So from the outside looking in, we had a we had a good marriage. Like we have a lot of fun. We have fun together.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04

Love playing games and adventuring and yeah, be best friends. Like, yeah. If I want to hang out, if I could hang out with anyone in the world, I would always pick Aaron because he is my best friend. He knows me. I don't have to fake anything. It's just easy. And yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:22

Yeah, it it seemed like it was a great marriage. I think the older we get, the more we look back and see, maybe see some things.

SPEAKER_01: 1:28

But the cracks and the but we, you know, we got married very young. Uh we were 18 and no, 19 and 21 years old when we got married. We're just kids still growing up. And so yeah, the older we get, the more we can identify like the like, oh, that probably wasn't as healthy as we always had thought it was. But in hindsight, overall, we've had a fun, like a good yeah, a lot of great memories.

SPEAKER_00: 1:57

Looking through old photo photos, you see a lot of these fun times. And I don't remember a lot of like really negative moments in our marriage. I just don't. And so I think from the outside looking in, we had a great, a great marriage. Um for the last 25 years.

SPEAKER_01: 2:19

What were those cracks? Um, I would probably say just like um past like traumas and pain and hurt and you know, childhood stuff, you know, that compounded. And when you get married, it is not the answer to your problems. It makes it like magnifies the problems. So I would say like early on, things that had definitely been issues like growing up that we didn't recognize were like following us into our marriage. And then as you get older, you're like, oh man, that is definitely a product of my upbringing that I brought that anger or, you know, those different things into the marriage.

SPEAKER_00: 3:03

But one of the things that the crack that was in our marriage that was um that Raina didn't know anything about was my um addiction to pornography. You know, being exposed to pornography when I was like 12 years old. And just dealing, just doing that in my own life, thinking it was normal, like it was part of what every guy does and what every guy's involved with. It didn't seem like it was a problem. So I never felt a need to really tell anybody. And so thinking it wasn't really a big deal, looking back at it, that was a major crack that caused a lot of issues between us over the years that probably seemed like they came out of nowhere, but obviously they were they did have source to it.

SPEAKER_01: 3:51

Because of the background I came from, the way that he treated me felt very good. Until you get older and you s understand what we were going through healing, and I'm like, oh my gosh, this isn't normal and this isn't okay. This is literally a product of his addiction to porn. Like the ways that our intimacy was, and pressures and weird things were all things I thought were normal. Were him pursuing you. Yes, what was him, yes, but they were not, and nor were they healthy. Um, but because I think I came from such a background of seeing like just a wild marriage, I thought like this is how marriage is, and this is beautiful because outside of those moments, we had a great marriage, like we really loved each other and it felt really great. But then through the healing process, it's like, oh my gosh, that isn't normal. And it isn't, it wasn't healthy.

SPEAKER_00: 4:54

You know, I thought as a young man, you know, battling that that secret, um, thinking that there was nothing wrong with it. Um, but I also thought that, you know, like every I think a lot of young men that I talk to say, like, well, when I get married, I won't need it anymore. It's not gonna be a thing. It won't even matter because I'll I'll have a solution to that desire. And the reality was that just wasn't real.

SPEAKER_04: 5:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 5:23

And so thinking that it would change, and it never did, um, definitely caused some issues. And you know, my mom and dad obviously did the very best they could to raise us. Um, they loved us. I felt like I look remember as a kid, I thought I had the best life. I thought I had the best life. And but one of the things that I realized that my my dad taught me was, you know, our business is our business. We don't need to be telling people what we're going through. It's not their business.

SPEAKER_02: 5:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 5:53

And trying to be protective of privacy um taught me a lesson of I'm not telling anybody anything because nobody needs to know what I'm going through. It's not their business. And that included my wife. It included people that were around me that were trying to be like my accountability friends. Um, it just wasn't their business. So I never opened up about any struggles um in my life because again, I I just had learned my whole life that it's not their business.

SPEAKER_01: 6:27

So you didn't know at all. Yeah, imagine being married to your best friend for 25 years and we know everything about each other. And I had no clue. No, absolutely no clue. I never crossed my mind. I trust him so deeply. I if it came up in like conversation with friends at church, like, oh, they're walking through this because it was never, I would never think, oh, maybe I should ask Aaron if he's doing because he why he would why.

SPEAKER_00: 6:56

Well, you you asked me before, and I was like, nah, thing for me.

SPEAKER_01: 7:00

So there, yes, like it's like I feel so bad for her. Like, that must be so hard. Um, and then like there were times where he would like make me think that this is it's fine if guys do. All guys do it. It's totally normal, it's totally bad. It's not harmful, it's not hurting anybody if they want to do it.

SPEAKER_00: 7:22

No, we didn't. No, this is like pre-I I always had a very gracious um perspective on it because when I would talk to guys that were struggling with it, I would always like, hey man, let's walk through this together. But you know, it is it's it's normal.

SPEAKER_01: 7:37

Yes, so I I started believing that watching porn wasn't that harmful. Everybody just does it. Is that crazy?

SPEAKER_00: 7:47

But I really but I really thought that. I thought it the religious people had a problem with it. But like in culture and society, because you hear like like sex therapists or doctors talk about oh yeah, if if it helps you, great, do it, watch it, be involved, engaged in it, whatever. So you're thinking, well, the world says that this is okay, and these are real doctors, not like some spiritual guy. So then you think, but you know, and and people openly talk about it on TV and just accept and media. So you're just like uh it's not a problem, it's just more of a spiritual problem, but it's not like a a a health issue or a mental health issue.

SPEAKER_04: 8:27

And you were a pastor.

SPEAKER_00: 8:29

I was, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 8:30

And so you were holding these two things in tension of well, this is what the world is saying is okay, versus like what did you think? Did you did you think that it was permissible scripture-wise? I don't know a better way to put that.

SPEAKER_00: 8:44

Well, I think there was a point where because when I this is when we were very young. And I think there was a point where I realized this is not, this is not godly, it's not okay. And no matter what, no matter what a doctor says on TV, like this is something that is not right. It's not respectable to my wife. But yeah, I, you know, at the time I was a young pastor, um, battling that in my own private, yeah, secret life, thinking it wasn't an issue. And then I came to a point where I realized it is an issue, it's not okay, but I'm gonna beat it. I'll take care of it, I'll handle this. I'll I'll just my own willpower. Yeah, my own willpower, I'll stop it. Nobody needs to know, I'll just fix it. Plus, if people know, you know, now you know the spiritual dynamic of it to where if you're a pastor and you come out and you tell people I'm struggling with pornography, well, now you lose um maybe not your job, but you definitely lose a lot of respect. If somebody knows you struggle with something like pornography, they're not gonna want to listen to what you have to say about the Bible. And so now it became a private battle of saying, I can get over this. Um, I definitely can't afford to lose that because if I do, it could cost us our job. And we depend on that.

SPEAKER_04: 10:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 10:05

And so it was you kind of have that inner battle. Um, and this was early on in ministry when we were when we were younger.

SPEAKER_01: 10:12

So when did you find out? Um, I didn't find out until D-Day, till my D-Day of five years ago. Yeah, and that is when that is literally the first I had ever heard of um, yeah. His porn addiction and then the affair and all of that, all of it one time.

SPEAKER_04: 10:35

So y'all had been married for 20 years, best friends, things were going well, but ultimately there came a day where you found out that he had been hiding things that you didn't know about. When you first heard that he had been messaging with another woman, how did you what did you think and how did you feel?

SPEAKER_01: 11:01

I thought, no way, impossible. Like, no. I um as it started to settle in and I read the messages, that's when I'm I'm not, it's kind of a blur. Yeah, it's a little bit of a blur. I feel like if you want to know, like in my body, it felt like an out-of-body experience. Like my brain could not process that this would happen to my family or my husband. Like I just, yeah. How did you approach him about it? Oh man.

SPEAKER_00: 11:41

I remember vividly.

SPEAKER_01: 11:44

She called me and I was I waited a while because I was like, This is just this is so weird. Like, there's no way. Nah.

SPEAKER_00: 11:56

I remember that day because I was I was working uh for my friend's company on the side um of the church. Um and she called me and I was I had just finished doing uh servicing a store. And I was getting in the truck and I was leaving. She calls me and says, What are you doing? I go, I just finished this store. And she was like, Are you sure that's where you are? And I was like, Well, yeah, where else would I be? She's like, How long has this been going on? I'll never forget it. Because I've never, there's never been a moment in my life where I've caused her more pain. It was in that or began to cause more pain because again, it was there was some delayed and staggered revelations over the next weeks. Um but in that moment, that was where her worst nightmare came true, and I'll never forget it because I just realized how deeply I hurt her. And she asked me the questions, and I remember trying to think how can I how can I ease this as much as possible, but but then she's like, Yeah, I don't believe you. And then I I remember finally saying, Okay, this is this is the truth. And that was the that started everything, and it was the the reason why it was so difficult for me was because it hurt her so much. And I remember hearing this desperation in her voice, or this there's a there's a tone to a voice that's that's not used any other time. And you could hear it, and I just remember thinking, I can't believe I did. I in fact, I remember going back in my memory to when I started my um those moments or those those failures, thinking I can never come back from this. There's no way I've made this decision and it can never be reversed. Thinking I wish I could go back to that moment and never do this to her ever, you know, and and um I just remember that that I'll I'll literally never forget that phone call. Um and I remember all I wanted to do was get to her so I could try and talk through it, um, figure it out, you know. Cause, you know, I I think for maybe I don't know if this is just a guy thing, but you always want to try and fix it. Like, how can we fix this?

SPEAKER_01: 14:35

I could not tell you how I felt because I was in such a state of shock. Like literal shock. Like my brain couldn't process anything. I think I spent an entire year in freeze. I spent weeks vomiting just over and over and over with I lost a whole bunch of weight. Uh, my family all came in to be with me because I couldn't, I had a baby. Bania was um our youngest was just a baby. And so I they came in to help me. And I think my I cannot describe the way I felt. It was just the most intense pain and confusion that I have ever felt in my life. If you've never experienced it, I don't even know what to liken it to. It was just intense. And I would, even for an entire, what was like a whole year, even when we began our healing journey, we would just be sitting there watching TV and I would start dry heaving for no reason. And it was just like nervous system, just like things would come up and I would just without even, I would just start dry heaving, just throw up. And I mean, it was yeah, it was intense. And there, and there were periods of anger, you know, looking my baby in the eyes, being like, how could anybody do this with this with this situation with our family? Like, how could anybody do this to them? That those moments produced anger in me because I wanted to protect them from their pain. Like, I'll figure it out, but like, how are they? They're they I have two little ones. Like, how are they gonna do this? So, like there was a lot of feelings, but mostly for a while, just straight shock. Were you all together the whole time, or did you ever separate? I asked Aaron to move out. Um, and he moved out for probably like three months-ish. Um, I think when we finally, it was because of our little ones that um they were just so confused and didn't know how to navigate, and it was hard to explain to them without giving them details of what was happening. And it was more for them than anyone to have dad back in the house. And then we decided to move. Like, if we're really gonna try this, we probably need to not be here anymore. And so we packed it up and we moved here to at least try. And I didn't put my skin in the game yet. I wasn't there yet when we moved, I wasn't all the way in yet. I just needed, I was still so stuck that I just, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 17:30

Did y'all ever consider divorce?

SPEAKER_01: 17:33

Every day for like I know you did. Sorry, yes. I mean it to be completely honest, it wasn't until like two years in that I was like, I am in love with my husband and I'm gonna do, I'm gonna match his healing work, you know, because and even not still, but even then there would be days where thoughts would creep in, dates, moments that you know were that were connected to a bad memory that I was like, never mind, I can't do this. I just literally can't do it. Like we would just be better. I can't live always having to do nervous system work. I can't live constantly trying to like feel safe. Like I can't do that anymore. So there were many times that Aaron was all in and doing all the right things and just like killing it in his recovery work and being so supportive, and days where I was like, I don't think I can stay married to this man. But you did. I did.

SPEAKER_04: 18:45

And I'm so glad I did. You mentioned a minute ago, a minute ago, Aaron, that you you'd heard that saying, like, you had had an affair, you had done these things. And for so many people, biblically, non-biblically, whether Christians or not, a lot of people say, like, oh, once you've had an affair, it's over. Like you were saying, like, the marriage is over. Do you agree?

SPEAKER_00: 19:07

Um, I don't, I don't agree. Um, and that's I think that's where the tension is now because the reason why I never got help is because as a as a pastor, um, I was afraid to lose everything. I and again, I was 40 years old, and I didn't know how to do anything else. But be a pastor. But be a pastor. And I was like, I know this is wrong. I know it. And I battled that. Like, how do you how do you justify ministering and then in another part of your life betraying your wife? Um it it's it's such a weird place to be, and there is a lot of internal battles that go on in the midst of those moments. Um, but I also knew like I I can I can figure This out. That's what I thought. I can figure this out. I want to do the right thing. I can figure this out. But I can't tell anybody because if I do, uh, I won't be able to provide for my family anymore because I don't know any other way to do that. And I won't be able to have a family. I didn't think, I thought for sure, if this ever comes out, I'm going to lose my family, which was the most important thing. I didn't want to lose my family, but I would also lose my ability to provide for them. And so I just kept kept it quiet to myself. And I remember one time Raina was like, something's wrong with you. I want you to go see a therapist. And I remember sitting there thinking, like, I'm not going to therapist. And she's like, I think you need to go see somebody. So we we set it up and I went and saw a therapist. And the the he was great, but I wasn't honest with him. The whole time he's asking me things. And I just remember thinking, like, I'll tell you what I want you to hear, but I will never tell you what's really going on. I was so afraid. Um, because there it's I you know what you sign up for. In no way, shape, or form do I feel bad for myself for the consequences of my actions, because I knew what I signed up for. I knew that a minister is held to a higher account. And I knew that when you make mistakes as a minister, there's gonna be accountability. Um so I don't feel bad for myself at all. Um you know, Raina found out without me telling her, which is uh I I I regret that deeply. I wish I was the one that would have came clean, but I didn't. Um and I regret that. But once it came out, I desperately wanted to get healthy because I was like, okay, well, it's out. You know, I I I remember calling my my kind of oversight people on Friday, and I confessed. So within a matter of an hour of of confessing to her, I called our leadership and confessed, and within a couple of hours it was over. You know, it was over.

SPEAKER_04: 22:26

And and again everything that you were scared of happening happened all within a couple of things.

SPEAKER_01: 22:32

But not just but not just to him, who had been kind of preparing himself. It happened to me and my kids.

SPEAKER_00: 22:39

Who had about a one-hour notice, you know.

SPEAKER_04: 22:42

Of like, no, you're not allowed back in the church, you're done. You can't see your friends anymore.

SPEAKER_01: 22:48

You can't don't don't call and contact your staff.

SPEAKER_00: 22:51

But I think that's, you know, again, like that series of events um was so scary um and so quick. But it I feel like I knew I knew it. I knew that was what was gonna happen.

SPEAKER_01: 23:07

We did not know that was gonna happen. Yeah, you didn't.

SPEAKER_00: 23:09

And that and I regret that. I, you know, because I I knew in my mind for a long time leading up to that, that one day the Lord is gonna say, You're done.

SPEAKER_04: 23:19

Not everyone would have done what you did. And I mean that in the sense that like there are people who get caught in affairs, get caught in addiction, get caught in these things, and they choose not to get healing. But you did. And I want to I want to know why. Like, when why when in some ways of looking at it, it would have been easier to just walk away, start over, start a new life. It would have been easier to walk away from the guilt and walk away from the shame and just and just move on. But you didn't. Why didn't you?

SPEAKER_00: 23:56

Um, well, first of all, because I love Raina and I love our kids. Um I I know this isn't believable. And I've heard this from a lot of gu uh other guys too that I worked with over the past few years. Um I loved her the whole time. And and the idea that yeah, there was some some cracks in our marriage, but it I didn't do this because our marriage was terrible. I was I was a very unhealthy human being. Um I loved her, and I still love her. Um and that's why it was like, okay, I have created this nightmare situation for my wife and my kids. I never want to do that again. And I want to make right what I messed up. And um, I mean, that really that's the only that's the only reason. And and I hated who I was. I really hated having um a double life, if you want to call it that. I hated having secrets. I hated having, because secrets kill you. Um there again, I don't ever want anyone to feel any sort of sympathy for me. I am I am the villain of the story. I'm very aware of that. I hurt my family. I hurt the people we that we love. I I hurt our church family in this process. And so I'm very aware, but I'll I'll never forget sitting there like with the weight of the lying and the weight of holding secrets that I mean there were times, and I've told you this, and I remember you saying, like, you're too much of a narcissist to do that.

SPEAKER_01: 25:45

But but I remember literally my angry moments, yeah, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00: 25:50

But I remember in my in moments being like planning how I could just kill myself. I would I would picture this is what I'm gonna do because I don't want my kids to find me this way. So this is what I'm gonna do, this is how I'm gonna do it. I just can't do this. The weight was so heavy. I'll never forget some moment some moments where I would sit there, I'd be driving in my car, and uh I could feel uh like a real weight on on my like back and my head just pushing me down. And in like this, I I as a Christian, I really felt like it was like a demonic moment where the enemy was trying to tell me, you're not escaping from this. And if you don't go get what you need, I'm gonna kill you. And just this darkness, super uh a heaviness that I can't explain. Um and I remember thinking, like, I don't want this, I I don't want this at all, but I'm in it, and I don't know how to get out. And so when it came out, yeah, I didn't willingly come out. Um but when it came out, it was like, okay, I can I can I can grab the life preserver. You know, I I I I I can't, I'm not afraid anymore because I'm I'm out. And so um I know I I don't want that to sound selfish.

SPEAKER_04: 27:31

I think it helps. I think it helps to be able to like see each perspective with empathy because you both went through something hard in different ways. When was the first time you remember feeling empathy towards him?

SPEAKER_01: 27:47

Interesting question. I don't honestly, I do, I don't even know. I mean, I'll people all the time are like, oh my gosh, you're so graceful and so forgiving. And I laugh because I'm like, okay. The amount of times that I and it's it's embarrassing the amount of times that I just flipped out where I just could not where something would come up or like a a little like truth would come out and I just lose it. And so whenever everyone's like, oh, you're so cute.

SPEAKER_00: 28:26

Can I tell a story about the coffee? No, well, that one's a good one too. I have a feeling the night that I was sleeping in our guest bedroom and I was asleep, and she came in, opened the door, kicked me out of the house while I was asleep. I hadn't even done anything at the moment. Because I couldn't in the middle of the night, kicked me out of the house.

SPEAKER_01: 28:49

I'm crawling to the bathroom, throwing up, processing my life just completely. The grief of losing our church and my kids and all of these things. And I'm processing through them. I'm crawling to the bathroom to barf, and he's just snoring in the other room. And I'm like, oh no, you're I am suffering. And I like I was like, you're out of here. I'm not doing this. What are you doing?

SPEAKER_00: 29:17

I think a lot of men in this situation that might be in the early on stages of repairing their families, um, they get they might get a little impatient.

SPEAKER_01: 29:31

Or defensive.

SPEAKER_00: 29:32

But the thing they they they can't ever forget is the reason why she is this way is because of what I did. This is this is because of my betrayal that she is having such a hard time with her nervous system, with her emotions, those types of things. And I did that. So I have to, I have to find empathy for that.

SPEAKER_01: 29:54

There came a point, and I people say time heals wounds, and I just don't believe that at all. But there came a point when I saw Aaron's efforts. So, like when Aaron, when I was feeling overwhelmed, and Aaron, or I would be riding in a car and there would just be tears. And I didn't want to like rehash or or make him feel bad, but he would see my tears and he would just gently reach over and be like, I'm so sorry that I have made you feel this way. Whether it was something he had done or not, he was taking so much responsibility and having so much empathy for me. There came, there were many moments where I was like, Holy cow, this is like, this has to be so hard for him to have this amount of humility when I am walking through that and feeling these ways or saying these things that he would still sit in it and be like, I'm so sorry, I'm here. How can I, what can I do? And it was after, I mean, years of that, you know, two years of just him constant just doing the work and getting healthy and not and never making me question like his intentions or my safety, that I was like, oh man, I really need to do the work to match this. I will I see that God has completely transformed this man's life and he's different. And I always loved him before, but it's like this is very attractive to me. Like, wow. And everything was just changed. I mean, even like in I don't know, but like on an intimate level, you know, and a lot of people don't talk about this, but after betrayal, um, that's a very hard step to take. It's very difficult. And a lot of things come along for the betrayed partner that they don't know about or haven't experienced. And there might be like weird nervous system things or shaking, or um, for me, I wanted to be intimate with my husband, but I would experience extreme intense pain after in my stomach, where I would double over and just it hurt so bad. And things like that would happen. And instead of Aaron being like, oh my gosh, this is he was very like, I am so sorry. How can this? We don't have to do this. I just what do you need? He was very like in moments that were scary and awkward, incredibly awkward and uncomfortable. He was still in it. Like, how can I help you? He was doing his own work, I was doing my own work, but together he was always like the humility and the kindness and the empathy and the I am so sorry, what can I do?

SPEAKER_02: 32:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 32:51

Was like it changed, it took this scared hard shell, and he just like slowly pieces were falling until it was like, this is safe, this can be happy again, this can be good again.

SPEAKER_00: 33:06

Well, I think too, like the when I was not healthy, like it's the journey of getting healthy where I was able to be aware of those moments and know how to respond right and know like and feel those feelings of of pain and empathy that maybe I wasn't capable of before. And there's a I mean, there's a lot of guys out there um that are that they just they don't have those feelings. Well, I know and when when you're finally getting healthy, you're like, wow, um I these are feelings I'm not used to. I mean, I used to sit there, you I remember for a while there, I would just randomly start crying because I'd never I'm not an emotional person at all. I would never feel any emotions, and then just it's weird because I'm not used to that. And I would start crying, and um, I would ask our my therapist, and he'd be like, hey man, just let it out. Just do it, just feel it. And um, I wasn't, I I know this sounds weird, but it just wasn't part of me.

SPEAKER_01: 34:19

I think that came with getting healthy though. Yeah, it's with going through recovery, because I think a lot of people in our situation, um, like I've spoken with many women whose husbands have um who have been caught in affairs or or um like porn addictions and different things, and their husbands are not willing to do any work. They just want to be forgiven and move forward, like, oh, you love Jesus, forgive me, let's move forward. There's no, there's no work.

SPEAKER_00: 34:46

Getting caught does not mean you'll stop. I know a lot of guys that have been caught that they're walking through divorce, they're walking through losing their children, and they are not willing to stop.

unknown: 34:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 35:00

Um, so being caught is not like, oh, I've been caught, now I have to stop. I know a lot of, I mean, I have over the last five years, I have met so many men who have been caught and will not, will not change.

SPEAKER_04: 35:14

What would you say? What would you want to say to that man right now if he was sitting here? He's been caught, he's not stopping.

SPEAKER_01: 35:21

There is hope. If you get the right hope, there's hope. The reason why you're not, it's not that a lot of men, it's not that they don't have the desire to stop when they're caught. It's not that they don't desire that. It's that they don't get the right help. They don't know how to. So they so they'll try, but then it's not, it's there's it's not working because it's not the right thing. And so I would tell any married couple, your marriage is worth fighting for. And if these things have happened, get the right help. Start seeking help now. You cannot heal this on your own. You cannot. Your body and brain cannot heal. You need guidance. If you're if the betrayed partner is battling with addiction, there has to be real help. Seeking the right help. Because there is always, I think that marriage can be saved. I think God can redeem anything. I think that I think anyone can make it with the right help.

SPEAKER_00: 36:24

Yeah. But you know, a lot of times somebody might, well, I've been talking to my friend.

unknown: 36:28

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 36:29

And it's just not getting any better. And it's like, yeah, well, that's not the right help. You need to go to someone who knows what they're doing.

SPEAKER_01: 36:36

Yeah. Well, they say trust is lost in bucket loads and earned in drops. Is that what it is? I think that's what it is. And so he has slowly sound good. He's slowly put the drops back in the bucket, you know, the whole thing dumped. And it hasn't, it wasn't just like, oh yeah, we're good. Like we're in this good. It was like a very long and slow. And so I would say to like women or men in the, you know, if you're feeling like this is we can't do this, like, don't rush it. Take your time. Healing is slow. It's not just like, hey, boom, I forgive you. This list go to a movie. It's nothing like that. It's a journey. Take your time. Have bad days. Have good days. This is the thing. Don't give up. It is worth fighting for. Just do not give up because you're gonna have bad days. You're gonna have days where you're sitting there and you drive for no reason. You're gonna have days where you're just overwhelmed with flooding. You're gonna have these days where you look at them and you're like, I can't do this. But just keep going. There is hope you can, you can do it. Just keep going. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 37:46

One of the things I love about y'all's story is it's such a picture of this consistency over time, like you're talking about. And you're right. When when traumas happen, when huge changes in your life happen, it's the consistency over time of doing the right things that will rebuild love that rebuild that trust that lead the marriage to ultimately be saved and even better than it was before. And I love the that there was a pressing in, like both of you could have left, and others in your shoes have and started new families, new lives, whatever, but y'all didn't. And you've done a lot of this hard work and just continued to do it over time, like even when it got hard, even when maybe at times it you were even like you even resented it. I don't know, but there's just you did it and you continued to do it, and you the other thing that I hate when I hear people say is, oh, I would do anything to save my marriage, but I won't do that.

SPEAKER_03: 38:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_04: 38:55

Like I won't go to counseling or therapy, I won't do this thing, I won't give up social media for three years. I won't fill in whatever it is. Yeah. It's like, but this is your most important earthly relationship. And in the grand scheme of life, these things aren't like aren't that big of an ask to save your family.

SPEAKER_01: 39:15

Yeah. And that and I felt like it wasn't too big of an ask. I do think that a lot of women are um so trusting that when their husband comes to them and says, I'm sorry I did this, that they will just move on. But I also think that that is one of the worst things that you can do.

SPEAKER_04: 39:35

Yeah, not do you have to deal with the problems.

SPEAKER_01: 39:37

You have to get to the problem. There is a root to every there is a root to everything that happens. Let's heal the root and then grow. Otherwise, we we can't just keep doing this cycle and then because I will if we just kept if we did that, like, oh yep, I forgive, let's keep on, let's go. If I was like that, we would be in this situation. Again. And no one can feel that pain twice.

SPEAKER_00: 40:04

It's I feel like Dr. Joe. I I watched a video not too long ago of him talking about putting up boundaries and safeguards to rebuild trust. But also at the end of the day, you know, we're all human beings and we're all we're all we all have the capacity to fail. But when you set the safeguards up, you're limiting the possibility of you doing it again.

SPEAKER_04: 40:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:30

You're you're saying, you know, I'm not going to have big amounts of time that are unaccountable. So there's going to be these safeguards in place to where she'll know that she's safe. That it's not, there's no way I could just disappear for a while. It's we have things in place to make sure that I'm accountable to where I'm at.

SPEAKER_01: 40:53

And there there's been moments too where um just like in good in like we're learning to trust each other, where I could be like, hey, listen, I'm okay with you. Like, let's have this conversation. Yeah, let's if you are wanting to get back on social media, let's go ahead and like I feel comfortable with that. But he never tried to do those things without like having a conversation.

SPEAKER_03: 41:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 41:17

And I had his text messages on my computer, which I never looked at, but I had access to them.

SPEAKER_00: 41:23

And there was, it was And you always have access to my phone. Right. At any moment.

SPEAKER_01: 41:28

And same. But like there was a moment where I was like, I these are annoying me, these popping up. I'm getting I have to get we're getting rid of this. Uh, but just being able to say to him, like, there there is full trust here. Like, I don't I thank you for this access, but I am, I don't need this. Yeah. And it is annoying trying to do my homework, you know. But like I definitely encourage people, like, stay the course and stay in it. Like, it's not gonna be fast. And there's gonna feelings are so fickle. And there's gonna be days where you are like, no, this is not like power through that. It is just a feeling. It is not, it's not truth. It's just how you feel at the moment. And I think a lot of people make harsh. I had a friend right after everything say, and I was like, I am not doing this. This guy is a scumbag. I he does not deserve me, he doesn't deserve my kids. I mean, knee jerk. I'm like, see ya out of here. And then a dear friend say, please do not make any decisions for six months. Don't do anything for six months. Get healthy, whatever you gotta do, don't make any rash decisions. And that was actually one of the greatest things anyone told me because I am like in my mind, I was like, you're out of here, bro. And I didn't care. I didn't care in the in the beginning stages, I didn't care what the Bible said, I didn't care what people were saying, I didn't care what they thought about me. I was just like, I'm not doing it. And I took that advice for my family, for my kids, and then it was just a process of until those layers were peeled, and I was like, oh, wait a minute, I really love you, and I really do want to be married to you. But I mean, those I think people need to know, like, you're gonna feel better tomorrow or today. It's gonna take a lot of time. And if you just stay in it, and if you have those moments of flooding or like, I this guy, I'm out of here. Like, go to the right people, seek the right help, and just stay in it. Because I feel like if you could see how we are together now, um it's just it's great, it's healthier, it's more fun. We're doing more things. There, there's a level of um respect and and empathy and care. It's just so different. Where I thought was things I thought were healthy before. Now I'm like, oh, I always wanted this. I always wanted this, and I am getting it now. And I just think that's just through the process and staying in it.

SPEAKER_04: 44:22

Y'all did a lot of things, the therapy, both individually, all the things. Um, and then recently, five years into it, you just came to one of the Maritoper workshops. How was that five years after the crisis?

SPEAKER_00: 44:36

It was great.

SPEAKER_04: 44:37

Who wasn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 44:37

It was great, and still learned a lot. And that's the thing. You're, you know, you can there's always more to learn. Yeah. And there's always more to grow.

SPEAKER_01: 44:46

We learned a lot about attachment styles, which was really helpful. We also learned about like flooding, which was huge for me because I could never pinpoint how it felt in those moments of the deepest pain and grief, and they came out of nowhere. They came out of, you know, just on a certain day, or seeing a certain vehicle or a certain movie or something like that. And all of a sudden, from my toes to my head, I'm just overwhelmed. And I just want to get out of my body. I want to scream. And learning about flooding, what I like, I was able to put like a name to what I was feeling in those moments of like deep trauma and grief. And so I was like, oh my gosh. And now I have a word. Yeah. Because I feel like trigger is such a buzzword. Oh, I was triggered. Everybody gets triggered by everything. Oh, they eat a bad piece of chicken and they're triggered. And it's like, I'm like, that's not the, that's not what it is. That is not how it feels. Flooding, that is how it feels. I cannot get out. I can't get out of this. It is so overwhelming. I don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_00: 45:59

For a long time, I was not convinced that you were gonna stay. And I was so afraid of her being like, this is just too much. To put the way I feel now. And it's not, I mean, we've done a lot of work together and we've grown a lot together. We've we've been through a lot together over the last five years to where we're closer now than we've ever been. We're we're better friends than we've ever been.

SPEAKER_01: 46:27

I think like things like marriage helper, though, is like you should always be investing. Like you never will never reach a point where we're like, we're healthy, we're healed, we're done. It's like anytime, and I would say that to couples who have been through things that we've been through and they feel like they're on the other side, like stuff like this, you should always be investing in it. Always because you because as we're getting older, we're going through different seasons of life. We're now we're we're grandparents and we have a little and we have adults and we have all these things, and in different seasons of life, even even when you're healthy, there's moments where it's like, oh, how do we navigate this? Like, how can I care for you and that? And that's like for us, we were in such a good place, and then we go to marriage helpers, and it's like, oh, well, that would have been useful three years ago, you know, to apply that. Like, if there are couples who have been through what we've been through, I would just say, get in, get in these, do the work, just keep the work is never done. You should always be investing in that relationship in what you're doing. It's just so important, it's worth fighting for.

SPEAKER_04: 47:37

And the work probably looks different now than it did five years ago, right? It's not, it's not as intensive or all of the time or invasive or all-encompassing, but it's so true. Just like with our mental health, our physical health, our spiritual health, right? There's always an intentionality that should go into it in order to keep it vibrant and alive and healthy. But so many times the marriage is the like the first one to go, the first one we stop focusing on when life is busy or work is stressful or whatever it might be, because we can get, we can get complacent.

SPEAKER_01: 48:15

I think for me, I am thankful that healing doesn't look like I thought it would look. Because I thought healing looked like um our marriage before, like back to that happy marriage. And it is not that healing has been, it's vastly different from our marriage before, which I thought was happy. And by all intents and purposes, it was fine. But I'm so thankful that it isn't what I thought it was gonna be. It's so much deeper and more connected and more intimate, not just intimate sexually, but intimate emotionally. Um, that it was never before it was never a thing before that as deeply emotional, um, which I think most women desire. Most women desire an emotional intimacy with their husband. It's like all-encompassing. And at first I thought, oh, well, we can heal and we'll just go back to our normal, happy. And I am just so thinking, well, it is not because this is so much better. It's so much more intentional, it's so much more. There's just so many more better things that have come with the work and the healing. And I am so glad it looks so different. Because I to go back, knowing what I know now, to go back to what we had, I would not be interested in that. That is not what I what the way that God designed for us to be. And so I am very thankful for all of this work that we've done. It is so much better than I had ever envisioned it being. And when we travel together and when we, when um things happen in our life, like I'm doing school, and Aaron is cooking dinner and he's putting kids to bed, and he's pitching and and he's doing things that were not part of our routine before ever. Um, there's more of a partnership. There's more of a, there's just so many things that are so much better than I could have ever imagined.

SPEAKER_04: 50:26

But you probably never would have thought of when you first found out about everything or when you were kicking them out of the house at 3 a.m. or or any of those things, but you're living in in the goodness of it now.

SPEAKER_01: 50:40

Yep. And I will, I would say, like, there are still hard days. There's still hard moments. But when you do the work and you do things like upkeep, maintenance, marriage helpers, therapy, when you do all of that, you learn how to stop it before it gets to the flooding. You learn how to regulate before it gets to a point where you're like, I can't do this anymore. And that's just part of staying in it and doing the work and doing the maintenance. And yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 51:15

What is something you would say to someone who is listening who's in each of your positions? So what would you say to the the the man who is like, I'm hiding things? Or what would you say to the wife who's like, I can't trust him ever again?

SPEAKER_00: 51:36

I think for someone hiding things, I would remind them that nothing stays hidden. And so it's just best that you find somebody and you start the process of coming clean and just being honest. Um, I would also say that even if you're the one who has hurt your spouse, betrayed your spouse, or you've had those secrets, you're worth fighting for. Um, you know, in all the the last five years, um I this a couple nights ago, we were at a party and a couple was sitting across from us. And I have told people this over the years, like in our recovery meetings, like, hey man, you are worth fighting for. I know that you made a mistake. And I know that in your story, you're the bad guy, but you're worth fighting for. And in all those years, no one has ever said that to me until a couple nights ago. I was at a party, and this couple across from me, they looked at me and go, we just want you to know that you're worth it. And I thought, wow, that like caught me off guard. Because I've no one has ever said that. Because again, I've I was the the bad guy in the story, but I would say that to any man that is struggling right now. Like, there's a lot of reasons why we fail. And it's not always because we're just these terrible, horrible human beings. It's because we're weak and we have problems or we have unresolved things in our lives. Those aren't an excuse for doing what we did. But there is still a level of grace for that person to find healing, and they're worth fighting for, even if they're the ones that betrayed their spouse or or um have just made some bad decisions. Yeah. So that's what I would say. Come clean and you're worth fighting for.

SPEAKER_01: 53:25

I mean, I would say to um a woman or anyone in a betrayal situation, because that is our um story, I would say, yeah, it is not your fault. There is some deep wounds in in your partner that need to be healed. Um, and don't carry that. And there is nothing that you could do or have done to have changed that. And um, you can accept responsibility for your shortcomings and you can get healthy in that area as well. You can do all of it, and you should. And you can identify the places where you went wrong and the things that you could have fixed can fix. But that isn't, it is not your fault.

SPEAKER_00: 54:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 54:08

And you should never carry that.

SPEAKER_00: 54:10

Yeah, those are those are not responsible for their decisions.

SPEAKER_01: 54:13

Their wounds need to be healed and yours. And then at some point, collectively, you can heal the brokenness together. You will not heal overnight. But one day the pain will subside and you will start to see things differently. And when that happens, follow the trail. But but don't rush it. It's not gonna, it just can't happen overnight. Those thoughts don't leave overnight, but please know it it subsides. And if you continue to do the work and you really love each other and you really want your marriage and you really want your family to be whole, keep going.

SPEAKER_00: 54:56

Yeah. I I remember um our therapist at the beginning told us this is gonna be at least a three to five year journey of healing. And I remember thinking, okay, three years. Yeah, we'll be good in three years. We're gonna be a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01: 55:10

No, he was like one year.

SPEAKER_00: 55:12

Yeah, we'll be good in a year. Because I obviously I was naive.

SPEAKER_01: 55:16

Yeah, one year in, I'm still randomly dry heaving in the car for no reason. I'm like, I don't know if it's a one-year process.

SPEAKER_00: 55:24

But at the end of the day, he's like, I remember him telling us it's gonna be uh it could be five, it could be longer. There's there's no like everybody's different. And he goes, but but it's gonna be at least three or three to five years before you start feeling a sense of normalcy. There'll be great moments along the way, and there'll be some bad moments along the way, but it's gonna take years, and that can seem daunting to think, man, uh so five years from now, we're still gonna be battling through this. But but at the same time, those five years, man, you the there's been long days, but those five years have flown by.

SPEAKER_01: 56:03

Oh my gosh. I would also say this it people say, like, oh, it'd just be easier to go. No, it wouldn't. No, it wouldn't. It they're both gonna be hard. They're both gonna be hard and both require a ton of healing work. And this is what we're from the very beginning, and I really felt like it came from the Lord, but I don't know. It could have just been somebody telling me this. I felt like it was choose your hard. You can go or you can stay. They're both gonna be incredibly difficult. So, what do you what hard do you want? Do you want to work hard and have a healthy whole marriage and family? Or do you want it to be incredibly difficult doing it alone and choose? It's not gonna be easier to leave. It's not gonna be easier to run off with an affair partner. You're just gonna be back in this situation again, going through all of these things again.

SPEAKER_00: 56:58

Like it's not Yeah, a relationship that started on lies probably will end in lies.

SPEAKER_01: 57:03

That's like in marriage helpers, when they talked about limerence, I thought if I could tell any person in limerence these feelings are going to go away and you are gonna desperately desire your old life. You're desperately going to desire your family, your spouse. Please understand whenever these feelings end, these feelings of wanting to be with this person end, you are gonna be in a place where you desperately wish you had never done that.

SPEAKER_02: 57:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 57:36

And please understand it goes away in any relationship. That feeling, that feeling of like, I can't get enough of you of limerence, it goes away. And then you're stuck with the person who destroyed what you had.

SPEAKER_04: 57:51

Yeah, thank you both so much. Such a powerful story, and I know it's gonna help so many people. I'm glad and honored to know both of you and for you to share this with so many people.