Relationship Radio: Marriage, Sex, Limerence & Avoiding Divorce
Relationship Radio: Marriage, Sex, Limerence & Avoiding Divorce
Why The Affair Partner Doesn't Actually Matter
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In today's Marriage Helper LIVE, Dr. Joe and Dr. Kimberly explain why focusing on the affair partner doesn't actually matter, and take live questions from callers. This show also features segments from Micheal Felker and Nathan Grounds.
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I was the one that had the affair. I'm not here to justify or minimize the pain it cost. I'm here because I know what helped my marriage and what didn't. I could feel how much time and energy my husband was putting into competing with my affair partner. The comparison, the anger, the need to know why him. And now I understand why. He thought that by removing the person out of the picture, everything will be better. No change, no effort, no accountability. Just removing what seems to be the problem. The person I was with was not just the reason why I stayed disconnected. He definitely made it easier for me to see a way out. But he wasn't just the reason why I wanted to end my marriage. If it hadn't been that person, it would have been somebody or something else. That's why focusing on the affair partner didn't help us. When my husband decided to shift the focus to himself, that's when we start seeing the change. Dr. Joe and Dr. Kimberly are going to explain why this matters and what actually changes when you stop fighting the wrong bottle.
SPEAKER_10:It hurts. When your spouse is involved with someone else, you feel rejected. Like, what's wrong with me? As a matter of fact, I've heard that question so many times. What's wrong with me? We'll help you think that through a little bit today and understand that that's not really what's going on at all. It's not about you. And believe it or not, it's not about the other person. If your spouse is having an affair or has had an affair, it really is about what was going on inside of his head or her head. Yes, yes, there was an involvement of another person without a doubt. And yes, yes, that hurts you deeply understand that. But perhaps if you begin to understand how these things happen, or at least what's going on, you can give up on the fact of thinking, if I can just do something about that other person, because it's his fault. It's her fault. She's she's a hussy. As a matter of fact, do you know how many different marriages she's destroyed so far? I remember working with a celebrity once whose wife was now involved with another man. He said, I've done some research. This is the 15th marriage that he's destroyed. It's all his fault. He was involved, but it wasn't all his fault. Hi, I'm Dr. Joe Beam with Marriage Helper, along with Dr. Kimberly Beam Holmes, and we're here today on Marriage Helper Live.
SPEAKER_08:You know, Joe, sometimes the things that people compare themselves to with the other person, yes, it can be easy to find faults, but sometimes when your spouse is in an affair, you compare yourself to them and come out second best. Instead of looking for all of the reasons of, but can't you see how terrible or how much this person has ruined their own life or other people's lives? Sometimes it's, I could never look like, be like, be as successful as that other person. And it can feel like you will never measure up and you'll never win. And so many times when when the spouse is trying to save the marriage and allure their spouse back or lure their spouse back in, they begin trying to compete physically, emotionally, mentally with that affair partner. And the thing is, even if you try to fight that battle, it's not going to work either because you're focusing on the wrong thing. If you constantly try to compare yourself to the affair partner, it's never going to work in doing the things that will save your marriage.
SPEAKER_10:And you can lead you to do some things that may other times seem make a lot of sense, but in the long run they don't. Kimberly met a lady several years ago whose um husband was having an affair at the same time she was having breast cancer. And so they had to do a double mystectomy, and and when they went to build back uh breasts for her, she insisted they make them larger than the other woman, thinking that somehow that was the problem and that would fix everything. Well, whatever she wants to do when it comes to them rebuilding or helping her after that surgery, that's up to her. But thinking that somehow that's going to change the picture, that that's going to make her more attractive, having some kind of surgery to do that? No, she had to have the breast removed because of the cancer. But building back that way so she could outcompete the other woman. And people do it in all kinds of ways, like I'll I'll change hairstyles, I'll try new makeup, I'll do other clothes, I'll learn how to do activities I never learned how to before. And some of those things might be actually very beneficial for the person. But the motivation is what's causing it to actually be a problem.
SPEAKER_08:Right. Because if the spouse who's in the affair doesn't react the way that you want, if you change your clothes, if you try and become more successful and bring in more money, if you try and change the way you look, do new activities, all to bring your spouse back to you, and it doesn't work, you're going to feel resentment toward your spouse and resentment toward yourself because your focus was off. Maybe some of you have felt this way. You feel like you're on this hamster wheel that you don't know how to get off of because you, if if you could just figure out the thing, say the, say the right thing, look the right way for your spouse to come back, then everything would be better. But that's not what's going to happen.
SPEAKER_10:So, Kimberly, people have heard us talk about becoming better physically, intellectually, emotionally, spiritually. We call those the pies. And they may be thinking, you know, this is kind of confusing because you tell me to work on my pies.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah. You should work. It's two different things. You should always work on becoming your best self, physically, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually your whole life, whether your spouse is in an affair or hopefully when your spouse isn't in an affair. It's not what you do in order to get your spouse back. That's not the tactic that you should use just when a crisis happens in your relationship. It should be the way that you live your life and that you focus on investing in yourself and making yourself the best that you can be. The problem is the focus. The problem really is the focus. If you, there's a thing in, there's a thing in psychology, we, there's several different types of motivation. We know that when someone is motivated by something because they believe that it's what someone else wants them to do or they're wanting a person to react to them a certain way. In this case, you working on yourself in order to attract your husband or your wife back to you. That's called an external motivation, an extrinsic motivation. It's the one that will last the least amount of time and bring you the least amount of joy and fulfillment. The goal in motivation is for it to be intrinsic motivation. This is something I'm doing because no matter what else is happening in my life, I would do it anyway. That's where it's coming from within you. It's like this never-ending source and well of motivation, joy, and satisfaction that comes from within you. That should be the focus of working on your pies, working on yourself. When you're doing it to get someone else's attention is when everything breaks down. And the pies actually may end up doing you more harm than good.
SPEAKER_10:Stay with me, between incentive salience and aversive salience. You say, what in order are you talking about? Let's just say this way. An incentive salience, what we sometimes call appetitive motive, that's another word for it, or approach motive, basically says, I'm doing this because it's going to benefit me in some fashion. It may accomplish other things as well, but the primary motive is going to benefit me. We're not talking about selfishness or arrogance, but it's going to be for my good, my benefit. And the aversive salience, uh, what we call an avoidance motive is I'm doing this because I'm trying to avoid feeling somehow, like feeling put down by the other person, feeling rejected, uh, or actually hearing verbal abuse, those kinds of things. And if you're working through the pies just because you think now I'm going to be competitive with her or him, then actually, believe it or not, it's an aversive or uh a motive that's about avoiding pain. You're not doing it for you because of the fact that it would lead you to feel good about yourself, have good self-confidence, those kinds of things. You're doing it because you're trying to avoid the pain. And believe it or not, rather than having that uh lead to you feel better about yourself and having a stronger self-concept, not narcissism, but just good old healthy self-love in the sense of love of your neighbors, yourself, that kind of thing, that kind of self-love, it doesn't do that because when you're doing it for the aversive avoidance motive. I'm trying to avoid feeling bad about myself because of the fact that I think she's more attractive or he's more handsome or more muscular or whatever, it really destroys your own self-confidence and your self-esteem. So, yes, do things for you, but not because you're competing with somebody else.
SPEAKER_08:The other thing that is worth mentioning here is also that if you're thinking that by you winning, by you competing with this affair partner and therefore winning means that it's going to ultimately bring your spouse back, that's not actually likely going to happen either. Because the reason that your spouse wants out of the marriage is much more complex than something just as simple as you might be thinking of, well, they just aren't attracted to me anymore. They very well may not be attracted to you anymore. And I'm not saying that for you to feel even worse about yourself. I'm saying that because there's a lot of things that are going on in their mind and in their life and in their decision-making process that has led them, even if you were working on your pies in every good way, if you were a tin on all levels and other people were flocking to you because of how attractive you were, it still doesn't mean that your spouse would see that because of several things that they are going through. So when you are putting all of the weight on you, competing with this affair partner, you have to realize that isn't actually the problem. There's so much more going on. And we're going to talk in uh in a little bit further down in the show about how we're gonna be explaining more of that in next week. And you can join that if you want to. Well, but we'll talk about that later. But right now, what you need to know more than anything is you have to stop having a competition mindset with this affair partner and comparing yourself to them.
SPEAKER_10:Or thinking that if you could just do away with them in some fashion, I'll I'll go tell her husband and that'll stop this, or I'll tell his boss and he'll get fired and that'll stop that. That's not going to help whatsoever. Because that other person, while is the focus of your spouse right now, or at least they think they're focused on them right now, they really aren't. It's really what's going on inside of them. And if the other person drops dead from a heart attack or gets hit by a bus, it's not going to affect your relationship. When I finally was no longer involved with the woman that I left my wife for back in the 1980s before most of you were born, I didn't immediately go back to Alice because the problem had never been with Alice. It was always within me. And so when the other woman left me, then I went in other directions for a while because I still hadn't solved what was inside of me.
SPEAKER_08:So for today, stop comparing yourself and seeing the affair partner as the problem. And maybe for today, that's the biggest step. And maybe for today, that's the biggest step that you can take and the best thing that you can do. With that, Joe, let's go to our first caller for today.
SPEAKER_10:Okay. Would that be Mary from Texas? Mary from Texas. Good. Hi, Mary. How may we help you today?
SPEAKER_04:Hi, you're my name is Mary. Um my husband moved out. Um he said he moved on to that February. And um, not you like that anymore. Um I I don't know what to do at this point. You know, working on my body and like allowing more time.
SPEAKER_06:How long have you been married, Mary?
SPEAKER_04:I've been married um for 23 years.
SPEAKER_08:Okay, and do you have kids together?
SPEAKER_04:I do.
SPEAKER_08:Are they still in the home or have they moved out?
SPEAKER_04:One in college and one in high. Okay, one in home.
SPEAKER_08:All right, and your husband moved out. Can you uh remind me again why he moved out?
SPEAKER_04:Um we didn't have a good married. Um we can not compatible. We we can communicate. Um I think you would combine with one lady at work.
SPEAKER_06:Um you think that you don't know?
SPEAKER_04:I think they hang out. I found out later. I don't know if we do anything. Um I know they really quick. I don't I don't know why.
SPEAKER_06:Is that still happening as early now?
SPEAKER_04:I think it you thought, yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Okay.
SPEAKER_10:So do you want him back?
SPEAKER_03:I do.
SPEAKER_10:Okay. And so I'm looking at what you told uh on our screen room when you called in that he's confused and it's like he's trying to find his way back home, and he said he doesn't want to lose you. Is all of that true?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, because um recently I was telling him that I just feel like we should just move on. You know.
SPEAKER_10:But he doesn't want to lose me.
SPEAKER_04:And he said he doesn't want to lose me. Um Okay.
SPEAKER_10:We call that being in the valley. What that means is that he's being pulled toward another person, that's what you're understanding, or what you're calling the emotional affair, but at the same time he's being pulled toward you. And when people are in the valley, they are confused and and they really are attracted to different people. You see, he hasn't totally rejected you. And even if he was completely with her and it would feel like a total rejection of you, what it is, is he caught up in whatever's happening inside of him. She has become an object of that. He doesn't want to lose you, so here's the choice you have. You can tell him anytime you wish. You can say, Okay, I'm done, I'm not waiting, let's go ahead and file for divorce and end this thing. But do you still love him?
SPEAKER_04:I do.
SPEAKER_10:Okay, and you want to reconcile this marriage, right?
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_10:Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Then the thing if if he changed, if he changed, I don't want him at this stage right now.
SPEAKER_11:You don't want him involved in somebody else.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I don't want him to be involved in somebody else. And then I you know, he had issues before too that I just feel like we need to work on it if we are to reconcile.
SPEAKER_10:So you have several criteria that we wouldn't reconcile unless this happens, this happens, this happens, and this happens. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_10:Okay, and you're making that known to him at this point, is that correct?
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_10:Okay. And are you surprised that he's not rushing back to you when you're saying this is gonna have to change, that's gonna have to change, that's gonna have to change?
SPEAKER_04:Well, he told me that we both need to change if we are gonna uh you know reconcile.
SPEAKER_10:You see, I understand and I accept the fact that that changes do have to occur, there's no doubt about it. But uh sometimes you have to take things step by step by step, which would mean it would appear here that the first thing on your agenda is let's get him back home, let's let's start working on these things, and then we can start repairing the changes. Because in my opinion, yeah, I could be wrong, but in my opinion, if you're hoping the changes all happen before you get back together, and there's a whole lot of them, then you're probably gonna have some trouble. We actually have a process that we teach people about how that they can go through this process of change, but it's a step-by-step process. And I don't blame you. Uh, Alice, when she took me back all those years ago, was like, I don't want the same marriage I had before. Okay, we will work on it, we'll repair it, we'll fix it. But we had to start where we were. There couldn't be an instant change where everything was all as it needed to be. It had to be a growth process. Kimberly, am I making any sense whatsoever?
SPEAKER_08:It's the difference in yes and and yes but. Yes and opens someone's mind. It allows them to feel free and safe and secure. Yes, but like you, I feel it when I even saying that yes, but we start to shut down. We start to think, I need to hold back, I need to scale myself back. And so when your husband hears something like, I would love you back too, but you need to do X, Y, Z. Mmm, it doesn't feel warm, it doesn't feel welcoming, it doesn't feel loving. It's affecting the way that you show up towards him. And so, yes, it makes total sense. So maybe, Mary, the best way that you need to go for it at this point is the next time one of those conversations come up, say, yes, I would love you to come home and let's let's start there. And don't bring all of the rules and the change and the expectations that you have to the table just yet. First, just get back in the same house and let that settle and then go to the next step.
SPEAKER_10:You can say things like, um, you can't keep sleeping with another person and come home. Sure, but he's not sleeping with another person. I understand that. But for those others who are out there listening saying, you mean bring him home or bring her home? No, there are certain criteria you can set, but you can't fix everything. And and you can work through a reconciliation process, and we'll be glad to teach you how to do that. Through a reconciliation process where you can repair and fix all those things.
SPEAKER_08:Absolutely. Hope it works for you, Mary. We would love to hear how it ends up going. Next, let's go to Will from Florida. Will, how can we help you today?
SPEAKER_07:Are you there, Will?
SPEAKER_08:Looks like we've lost Will. Oh yes. Oh, right at the nick of time, Will.
SPEAKER_10:I mean, we help you.
SPEAKER_09:Oh, hey, hey, hey. Yeah, so I was I kind of had a I don't know how to frame this, but is it normal for someone to attach to something someone else after the original L-O? Someone else. I mean So like with my wife, she didn't she didn't leave me for another man. Like she left, and then six months later she went into limeranth. And when I first when I first joined the program, I kept hearing the word limerence, and I'm like but but what I heard was you know the affair partner, they're in limerence with the affair partner. And I was like, okay, well my wife didn't she didn't leave me for anybody. When did she already follow the program? When did she leave? She left me in March. What? Um we were kind of fighting a lot, we were having financial issues, and you know, we were just kind of being verbally abusive to each other at that point.
SPEAKER_10:Um and then so did she feel pushed away from you? Did she feel pushed away from you emotionally?
SPEAKER_09:Did she feel emotional? I was con I was con yeah, I was controlling, I was controlling, and I understand that. And when she first told me she wanted a divorce, instead of me saying, you know, let's talk about it, I was more like, Are you dumb? Like, what are you talking about, right? But but I done made all those changes because so the issue now is she left me, she didn't leave me for anybody, but six months later she went into limerence with a man.
SPEAKER_10:And you're sure it was limerence positive. Not just an affair, but you're sure it was a limbered affair. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_09:So it wasn't so here's what happened. When when she left me, I left out of town to work to go make money for my family, and I'm out of town, and what happened was we had a downsize and we had to move to a different place. She did all that while I was gone, and I don't want her to do that. I was like, let me come back in a couple days. I'll move, she moves, and then all of And one day she's like, Hey, well, I don't think we should be together anymore. It's been much more peaceful since you're not here. Well, we've been at each other's throats. Okay, cool. Right. She moves. Okay. So now I'm gone for from March to August. But from March to June, we were kind of trying, but not really. She came out to see me where I was working on three occasions. So she gets involved in the shell of it. Right. So I get back, I get back to Florida in August, and I get my own place, and I'm thinking, okay, I'm going to try to see if I can at least be in the same proximity. I won't pressure her. I found marriage to helper. And I kept hearing they're in limerence with the affair partner. And I'm like, okay, my wife doesn't have an affair. She just left because of me. She's not with anybody, so I'm going to follow the program.
SPEAKER_10:But here's my question, Will. Here's my question. You said she got in love with another guy. What makes you think it was limerence?
SPEAKER_09:In September, she tells me, I'm seeing someone, okay? And I'm and I'm thinking, no worries. I'm going to follow the program. I'm not going to worry about this guy. And it was one day that I met her when we were exchanging the baby. And I did the whole, like, I tried to kind of grab her and was like, hey, babe, talk to me. You know, and most of the time they're going to do the whole, don't touch me right now. You know, she went ballistic where we hadn't even talked in a while. We hadn't had any conflict. And I'm just like, Can you just please talk to me? And she just get the F off me.
SPEAKER_10:So, Will, like still not saying the answer to the question. What makes you think she's in limerence for the other guy? She's not in limerence now. What makes you think that she was in limerence for the other guy?
SPEAKER_09:Because she's because when when she responded that way, and then after that, she was just kind of being like irresponsible, nothing like there was no rationalization. The way she was acting, she was like, So you're basing all of that on the way she acted toward you. Yep.
SPEAKER_08:But she's already done with that relationship.
SPEAKER_09:She's done with that relationship. So what happened was it lasted. It sounds like it got pretty intense quick when she broke it off. She announced it to me. And for me, obviously, I remember dates and all that. At the end of September, she tells me, I broke it off. I don't want you to think you have a chance because you don't, but I just wanted to tell you. He just pissed me off and we broke it off.
SPEAKER_08:I don't think it was Limerence for all.
SPEAKER_09:Well, for three or four weeks, she was acting like herself, not back towards the marriage. For about three or four weeks after that, it was almost like she was trying to come back. What happened was her brain started asking for it again. She couldn't come back to me. She couldn't go back to the LO, so she attached to someone else.
SPEAKER_10:So do you think she still feels that you're trying to control her?
SPEAKER_09:No, because we don't even talk. We don't you know like right now I just asked if I could watch the baby, but it's her trying to control something. And she said no.
SPEAKER_06:How long have you been married?
SPEAKER_09:Seen her. Five years.
SPEAKER_06:How okay, how many how old is she?
SPEAKER_09:She's 33.
SPEAKER_06:How many kids do y'all have?
SPEAKER_09:But here we have one together, and then we have others outside. But so I do believe it was emergence. I I believe it we're dealing with a deep identity rupture. She attached to someone else after the LO. But if I go back and I start thinking before she left, I do believe postpartum has something to do with it. So how can we help you? What can we do for you? So I'm wondering now, is it normal for them to attach to another person after the LO? And then like, how does that I don't think she's not in limerence with this guy because I'm seeing different behavior, but it's still this chaotic in the sense of like guilt and shame and not not more of like she's taking the fantasy anymore?
SPEAKER_12:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_10:Yeah, well, she may be. She will may well may be chasing a fantasy. But to answer that specific question, is it uh common that a person who is getting out of limerts with one person rather than going back to the spouse to get involved with another person where it's not limerence? And the answer to that is happens quite a bit. It's because of the fact that if indeed they were in limit with that person, in limerits with that person, they felt a tremendous amount of emotional connection. And when that ends, they still want it. And so they start hooking up with different people, hoping they're gonna find that same thing, but it doesn't work, which means the subsequent relationships tend not to last very long because they're not gonna find there what they're seeking. But in my opinion, Will, I I think you may be right, she might be chasing a fantasy, but it sounds as if she's seeking some kind of assurance of her own worth and value. What do you think, Kimberly?
SPEAKER_08:I think that in some ways it doesn't matter if she was in limerence or not. That's correct. I wonder, Will, if it if she has felt from you, I mean you said that you were controlling, so you did you did kind of admit it. It seems like you're trying to diagnose her, or not not with, you know, bipolar, that's not what I'm saying, but you're trying to put a label on what she's doing so that you can, so that you can have like a nice little, well, since she's feeling this or doing this, then here's exactly what I need to do, or this is wrong with her. Well, I think you just need to chill on that for a minute and look at at yourself and say, how am I showing up here? Because maybe, maybe when you reached out to her at that time you met in August that you referred to, she just really like it took her off guard. And, you know, how did that come across as manipulative to her? Did that come across as controlling to her? I also feel like you're following multiple, you're using words we don't use at marriage helper. So I'm wondering if you're combining like protocols that's maybe getting you confused here as well. How can you show up different towards her and in her eyes so that she can begin to see you as a safe place again? That is the number one and only thing that you need to focus on right now.
SPEAKER_10:That is correct. And if anything works, that will 100%.
SPEAKER_08:That's continue to follow the program, get involved with the community, find people who can help hold you accountable inside of Marriage Helper, and they will make sure that you stay, that you stay on the right path. You just need to let go of some of the things that you're trying to control right now.
SPEAKER_10:I hope it works out well.
SPEAKER_08:I believe you can.
SPEAKER_10:And then let's talk to Ann F. Hold on. Uh oh, sorry.
SPEAKER_08:We have to go I've lost it.
SPEAKER_10:Hold on.
SPEAKER_08:We have to go to Michael. We're heading over to Michael's motivational minute.
SPEAKER_00:Hey friends, if you can't stop thinking about the affair partner, or if you can't stop ruminating on the things that may be happening behind the scenes, and that's causing you frustration and anger and anxiety, I want to encourage you to remember your A B C's. A attention. I want you to turn your attention away from the situation, away from the affair partner, and turn it back towards yourself. I want you to turn your attention on you and what you can control. You can't control your spouse, you can't control your the affair partner. But what you can do is control your thoughts, your behaviors, and your actions. So turn your attention towards you and what you can control. And then B, I want you to bring your best self to every interaction that you have with your spouse. Don't start fights, but come into every interaction using the principles and the things that you've learned from Marriage Helper to become your best self. Bring that best self to every interaction that you have with your spouse. And then finally, I want you to serve them cake. Many of you know about our pies of working on your physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual life. But if you've been a part of our community, you know that Kelly encourages us to serve people cake whenever we have the opportunity, especially difficult situations and difficult people. To serve them cake, we offer them compassion, acceptance, kindness, and empathy. So that's our see. Serve cake whenever possible. You know, a wise man once said that as far as it is with you, live at peace with everyone. If you follow these ABCs, you will begin to live at peace with everyone and also peace within yourself. I like that guy.
SPEAKER_08:I do too. He's so fantastic. All right. Well, you know, Michael is in Texas, so let's head to another caller from Texas, Leslie.
SPEAKER_03:Hi.
SPEAKER_07:Hi, Leslie. How can we help you today?
SPEAKER_03:Uh well, I I have some questions regarding my husband. Um, how can I distinguish between a fear avoidance fault who is running from commitment and uh like uh true values and compatibility? Um does that indicate true conviction or emotional burnout on my spouse. We've been married for 14 years. This is our third separation. He's the one that has left me every time, and this time he told me that um we should have stayed separated since the first time that he left me. Um because much of he tried um were not compatible according to him. And because of my controlling behavior, he wouldn't be um he wouldn't be able to be himself anymore. Um he had to change things about him that he doesn't like anymore, he doesn't like who he's become. And I kind of stopped him from pursuing his his dreams, like becoming a musician or a painter. But overall, like he just doesn't feel like I accepted who he was.
SPEAKER_08:And did you accept who he was and support what he wanted to do?
SPEAKER_03:I didn't accept who he was, like parts of him, because he would be kind of like um trash sometimes, like whenever we were like in in social situations and afterwards I would tell him like, Oh, you shouldn't be saying this or you shouldn't be saying that and things like that. So he takes it as like, Oh, I was controlling also um the fact that I was I'm the kind of person that I'm like, oh, this way it's better, you know, like if you do things my way, it'll work out better.
SPEAKER_08:So can you see how that is controlling? Leslie?
SPEAKER_03:Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And and I actually started applying that being controlling since since last year when he left me in June. And he told me that he sees the changes, but he thinks that they're not like not permanent, and even even if they were like that it's good for me because that way I can apply it for the next for the next guy. That's what he tells me. Like, he doesn't want compromise. He tells me that um he's not made for m made up for marriage, like um there's certain people that are made for build up for marriage, some others aren't, and he's one of those who aren't, but he he fooled himself and he thought he couldn't what he wants.
SPEAKER_08:Does it matter if he is fearful avoidant or not? Why does that matter?
SPEAKER_03:Um I guess because I kind of wanna think that I have hope for him to maybe change his mind and give it another chance at our marriage.
SPEAKER_08:And knowing that he's fearful avoidant versus not knowing what attachment style he is would give you more hope.
SPEAKER_03:No, not really, I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_08:Right. I think at the end of the day, Leslie, you've said you've noticed the changes that you need to make within yourself. You can own that. You've been doing it. He's seen change in you. Your concern right now is it's not happening as fast as you want it to. But Leslie, this has been happening for 14 years. And so perhaps you continuing to be consistent in the changes that you're already doing. That's what we say. If anything works, this will. Continuing to do the right things will be what works to ultimately put your marriage back together. It's been falling apart for a longer period of time than for the period of time you've been working on it right now. It's going to take time to put it back together. But the best thing that you can do is be consistent in changing your actions and changing the behaviors that ultimately pushed your spouse away to begin with. What would you have to say, Joe?
SPEAKER_10:I think that's good.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, sorry.
SPEAKER_10:So thank you, Leslie. We appreciate it. And I hope that you heard what Kimberly said, because that's the way to do it. And just before the break, we're about to go to Anna from uh New Mexico. So let's go back to her because she's been waiting ever since thinking, well, Dr. Bamer.
SPEAKER_08:Oh, is that who you originally?
SPEAKER_10:Yes.
SPEAKER_08:I didn't even I didn't even listen.
SPEAKER_10:Well, Dr. Baimer remember that he was asking me to come on the air or not. So uh Anna, if you're still there, how may we help you?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Hi, how are you? I'm here. Okay, so um my husband started having an affair maybe like two years ago. And it was very traumatic for me. We have been together for 25 years. Um, I completely there was a lot of things that happened, so I thought my marriage is over, so I stepped out of my marriage.
SPEAKER_10:And then I realized one person or more than one person?
SPEAKER_04:One person.
SPEAKER_11:Okay, and was that an emotional connection or primarily vengeance?
SPEAKER_04:Vengeance, I guess. Uh I didn't feel anything. I understand. I just did it because I wasn't at the top.
SPEAKER_11:I understand. And how long did that last?
SPEAKER_04:Uh maybe like three weeks.
SPEAKER_10:Oh, okay. Now, if I'm reading what I'm if I'm singing the screen correctly, it says that he's coming back in and out of your life right now. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_04:Yes, he moved out a year ago, but he has always he comes home, he watches TV with me, he has dinner with me, and he just I guess I'm just wondering if this re if this is repairable. He tells me he cannot, he will never forgive me. But he does call me and tells me he loves me, he misses me.
SPEAKER_10:But he had the affair first.
SPEAKER_04:I'm never coming back.
SPEAKER_10:He had the affair first.
SPEAKER_04:Correct.
SPEAKER_10:Is he still involved with that person?
SPEAKER_04:I believe, I believe on and off. I don't ask any questions anymore, but I believe so.
SPEAKER_10:Okay, so when he says he can't forgive you, do you think that's because of the fact that if he forgave you, he'd have to give up the other woman?
SPEAKER_04:Yes, yes, uh, yes, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_10:Have you gently not not in in a condemning fighting way, but have you gently asked him that?
SPEAKER_04:Uh no, I I mean we have had conversations, but it always ends up in an argument and there's something what he tells me in arguments are. Right, and then he tells me No, and then he tells me sometimes he tells me if you could just forgive me, if you could just forgive me. So it's really uh double-minded double-minded. Let me make sure I'm getting this straight.
SPEAKER_10:He doesn't believe that you have forgiven him, is that correct?
SPEAKER_04:Yes.
SPEAKER_10:And so he says, because I don't feel that you've forgiven me, then he's saying, therefore I'm not gonna forgive you. Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_04:Yes, but yes, I believe. Okay, so why don't you forgive me? I have, but he doesn't think I have. He doesn't feel forgiven. I don't know.
SPEAKER_10:Uh so we're dealing with his guilt now, right?
SPEAKER_04:I I believe so. We spend Thanksgiving together, Christmas together, I don't bring up the other person.
SPEAKER_10:And so when when you talk when you're not arguing, when you talk when you're not arguing, have you ever asked him this question in a general way, not to sort of argument like, what what would I need to do for you to truly believe that I forgive you?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I I never thought about asking him that.
SPEAKER_10:I didn't. I'm sorry. I didn't know.
SPEAKER_08:She said she never thought about asking him that. Well, Anna, I think that's a great place for you to start.
SPEAKER_10:You sound like a pretty intelligent person, are you?
SPEAKER_04:I believe so. Yeah.
SPEAKER_10:You sound right to me.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, yes.
SPEAKER_10:Uh you see, i sometimes you can get so close to the situation that you're reacting to it rather than backing up a couple of steps where you can kind of see the bigger picture. If he's not feeling forgiven, even though you said you forgive it him and he's not feeling forgiven, then something's going on. And the only way you're going to find out what that is is for him to tell you. And the only way you're going to get him to tell you is if you're gentle, calm, sweet, and and saying, I really want to know what would I need to do for you to feel or believe that I truly forgave you, or that I forgive you. And and if you can have that conversation with him without getting angry, and if and if he gets defensive or angry, you stay in control. You'll be the strong one saying, No, no, I'm not here to fight. I'm not here to bring up the past, I'm not here to cause any hard feelings between us. I just find it important that you know that I forgive you to help me understand what we need to do or I need to do to get there. And and if you stay calm and and continue to listen to what he says and don't react negatively, you've got a pretty good chance of finding out what it is. And when that happens, it's going to be an emotional moment. For both you and me, it's going to be an emotional moment. And that's when you you can say to him, okay, we can do that. Now, what we need to do for you to forgive me, and this is this is definitely reparable. It it can be fixed. We've seen this situation so many times. Yes, it can be fixed. But but you're gonna have to be the leader here, Anna. You're gonna have to be strong and calm, very calm and very gentle. But I think you can do this. Do you think you can do it?
SPEAKER_04:Yes, I believe I can.
SPEAKER_10:I believe in you, young lady. I think you can make this happen. And when you do make it happen, I want to know about it. I want you to tell me what you did and how it worked.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, I I sure will. Thank you so much. You're very good. I appreciate both of your help. Thank you, Anna.
SPEAKER_10:Take care.
SPEAKER_04:Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_08:Well, Joe, we have a new segment that we're introducing this week to the live show.
SPEAKER_10:It's always fun to show up for this thing and find out all the stuff I don't know.
SPEAKER_08:It's so fun. It's so fun to do it. Therefore.
SPEAKER_10:She really does run this organization. I just work here. People think I'm kidding when I say that. No, it's true. I'm working for my youngest daughter.
SPEAKER_08:And it's a joy every day. The highlight of his life. So today we are introducing a new segment. One of our coaches and workshop facilitators is beloved by all. His name is Nathan Grounds. And so we're starting a new segment with Nathan, Coffee Grounds with Nathan Grounds. Let's go to Nathan.
SPEAKER_01:Hey everybody. I want to tell you about a couple that I worked with a couple of years ago. It's a prototypical marriage helper story where the wife is in an affair, the husband is the stander. That means he's the one wanting to save the marriage. And yet he's really not sure he's even able to. Like he he doesn't think he has the capacity to. Because what he's craving and what he's desperate for is for his wife to choose him. You see, he's one of those really strong, tough guys, teaches his three boys at home to be tough, to play baseball, to work hard, and you'll succeed in life. And now all the things that he had rested his identity on, namely that he was a pillar in the community, that he was successful in his work, that he was a man's man, now all of that is being threatened because his wife, who he does love dearly, is in love with someone at the gym where she goes. Well, they wind up at a workshop. They come to learn quite a bit about each other and quite a bit about themselves. The man in question, the standing spouse, comes to learn that there is a why behind the what, that there are some reasons, maybe not justifiable ones, but understandable ones as to why his wife has begun to fall for someone at the gym. And what makes their situation so much more complicated is that, if my memory serves me correct, they own the gym where this affair partner currently visits regularly to see his wife. Everyone is telling them it's hopeless. There's no sense in this. She's in love. It's time to just wash your hands clean and move on with life. But he decided to stand. And through their experience at the workshop and some coaching with me, we were able to reconcile their marriage. You know what's so cool is if you can come to one of our workshops, we teach you a process, a step by step process on how to reconcile. And he loved that. He's what we call a calculator. He likes steps and processes, and there is something valuable about knowing. If we just go in order step by step, there is hope. They reconciled their marriage, and then you know what? A couple of months later, they were back. They had another issue. But what was so cool about coaching them through the next issue was that the way they communicated, the way they looked at each other, the way they thought of each other had absolutely transformed. I wanted to share that story with you to let you know if you feel hopeless, if you feel like there is no hope, hey, I know what that feels like. I work with people like that all the time. Can I just remind you of something? There is always hope. And we hope to see you at one of our workshops.
SPEAKER_10:I love it. So he's gonna open an end with drinking coffee.
SPEAKER_08:That was the instructions. It was like, you can talk about whatever you want to talk about. I mean, you know, within certain limits, but you have to drink from a coffee mug during it. See, it's fun.
SPEAKER_10:Coffee grounds with Nathan Grounds.
SPEAKER_08:Coffee grounds with Nathan Grounds.
SPEAKER_10:He's a very broad young man. He's very does great things to help people. We're just very happy that he works with us.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah. He's been a part of our team for several years, started as a client, now as a coach, also a workshop facilitator, and as I said, beloved by all. Well, Joe, we started this show today talking about limerence, affair partners, why you shouldn't be focusing on the affair partner. And this is something, I mean, almost every caller we've had today in some way has been asking about what to do if my marriage is affected by an affair. We saw that last week and we see it all the time. The very, very many people who come to us, it's because their marriage has been affected by an affair. And so you're gonna be doing something special next Tuesday night, February 10th.
SPEAKER_10:Really?
SPEAKER_08:Yes, you know about don't even act. He knows about this.
SPEAKER_10:Yes, when we're talking about limerits, uh, it's what is it, a two-hour seminar? Yeah, two hours. Two-hour seminar. We're gonna talk about limerits. You understand that when uh we first started talking about limits when you were you were very young. Some 32 years ago I started talking about limerits because I had read uh what Dorothy Tenhoff had written back in the 1970s. And so the information she put out is about 50 years old, but only in the last 10 to 15 years have people started paying attention to that. Well, we did 30-something years ago. And now I'm seeing a lot of things out there, a lot of websites about it, and uh particularly from counselors and therapists, but their understanding of limerits, they're basing it primarily on what Dr. Tenoff came up with back in the 70s, which was brilliant. She did a great job, but we know a lot more about that now. And we've been working with marriages in trouble for 32 years. And in that 32 years, we have learned a whole lot more about limerits, just hands-on, dealing with people up front. And so many of the things that people are saying on their websites about limerence, they, you know, I'm a counselor, I'm a therapist, and this is what you need to know about limerence, uh, is basically quoting tenov. Because when I go speak to counseling centers, like, you know, there's 30 counselors here, 40 counselors there, and I go spend the day with them and teach them. When I go work with counseling centers, most of them have never studied limerence. They didn't learn it in in college. It's not being taught in the universities in the master's level. And so whatever they learn, they primarily learn off the internet themselves, which can sometimes not be the best teacher. We have a deeper understanding of that. And I'm not trying to make it sound like, oh, we're the good guys here, the bad guys. I'm just thinking we've been dealing with it so long, we have some insights that uh that they don't yet have. Let's just put it that way. And so on that Tuesday night, uh Tuesday night?
SPEAKER_06:Tuesday night.
SPEAKER_10:Tuesday night, February 10th, for a couple of hours, we're gonna deep dive into limerits. So you understand only as far as we can go in two hours, but we're gonna deep dive into limerits, not only about what it is, we've talked about that a whole lot, but how it affects the person that has it, how it affects the other person that's married to the person that has it, if if the limerits is not with you, and how it affects the limerant partner out there, and ultimately where all of this finally leads. And so rather than what they're saying on some of the websites, like limerence is always because of the fact that the other person doesn't reciprocate. That's not correct. We have dealt with many, many situations where the other person does reciprocate and is also in limerence. And so that's the insight that we have that apparently a lot of people out there don't have yet. And we'd like to teach you about that. So, how do they find out about getting in this seminar?
SPEAKER_08:There's gonna be a link that is put in the chat. So if you're watching this later, then you'll also see a link in the show notes where you can join. It's two hours, February 10th, starting at 6 p.m. Central Time. It's$29. You'll get a replay of it if you missed it or if you want to re-listen to it. That replay will be available for seven days. But we're gonna go deep into, and by we, I mean Joe. We're gonna go deep into what limerence is, how it's affecting your spouse, and why that helps, because it'll help you feel less crazy. And it will also help you understand what's going on with them so that you can better understand what you can do now.
SPEAKER_10:And if you're the one in limerence to help you understand that you're not technically crazy, but things are going on in your brain that are very confusing.
SPEAKER_08:Absolutely. If you're already a part of any of our marriage helper programs, then this is just included in what we already do for you. But if you're not yet, then this is a great way for you to join, for you to learn, for you to see what we do, what we believe, what we're about, and ultimately see how it's going to work for you because I know that it will.
SPEAKER_10:So invite your friends. If if you know marriages that are in trouble, like, well, my best friend, we were talking the other day, and she said her husband or the guys at work the other day, this guy said about his wife.$29 is not a major investment. And they'll learn a lot about what's going on out there. As a matter of fact, if you have uh teenagers who are old enough to talk about these things without being embarrassed, and and you would like to hear it, I'll guarantee you if they understand it when they're still young enough. In other words, not married yet. I don't mean 12-year-olds, because it's an adult subject, but it's like, you know, 17, 18, 21, you might want to invite them to come to it as well, because they'll learn some things that will help keep them out of trouble in the future.
SPEAKER_08:Absolutely. Links in the description. Let's go to our next caller, Tracy from Arizona. Tracy, how can we help you today?
SPEAKER_02:Hello, good morning. Good. Or afternoon, wherever you are. Afternoon for us, that's okay. I'm so glad I got in. So I did watch one of your guys' other um videos, and the three things not to do is what I did. So I wish I had seen it before. So I was just curious. Um so right now, my husband, we've been together 28 years. Um this year we'll be married 24. I know he is having an emotional affair. And he has moved into a separate bedroom.
SPEAKER_10:Can I have a couple of quick questions before you go further? Just two quick questions. How old is he?
SPEAKER_02:He is um this year he'll be 60.
SPEAKER_10:Okay, and how old is the other person?
SPEAKER_02:Uh 34.
SPEAKER_10:Uh-huh. Oh, and I'll I'll ask the third question. Has there been any significant event in your lives, especially your husband's life in the last year or two, like the death of somebody who cares about the loss of a job? I mean, some significant emotional thing in the last year or two would that would affect your husband?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I know he retired five years ago.
SPEAKER_08:He retired five years ago. And the affairs remind us again when the affair started.
SPEAKER_02:Um it's almost a year ago.
SPEAKER_10:Okay. So nothing in the last couple of years, no significant thing like a child moving out of the home, nothing like that.
SPEAKER_08:A loss, someone dying?
SPEAKER_10:Any kind of a loss.
SPEAKER_02:Um, well, his father did end his life uh like six years ago.
SPEAKER_10:Okay. And uh how did he meet the 34-year-old?
SPEAKER_02:Um, at the a local restaurant that they go and eat at.
SPEAKER_10:So she was working there or they started meeting there?
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yes, she worked there.
SPEAKER_10:She worked there. Okay. And why is she interested in him? Does he have money? Is he famous? Is there something that would attract her other than just the fact that he's a man?
SPEAKER_02:Um, she probably thinks he has money.
SPEAKER_10:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:That's not the case.
SPEAKER_10:And when you say an emotional affair, you're sure it hasn't turned sexual yet.
SPEAKER_02:Um yeah, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_10:Okay, and how are you sure?
SPEAKER_02:Uh because I know too many people in the town, and um, so yeah. And if it had, he would definitely tell me. That he would tell me because he would know it would hurt. And he wants to hurt you? Um he said that I've been um emotionally and mentally abusive towards him, but um he said I was he told me that he was drifting, but I was in my own deep depression where I was on the verge of ending my life. So if I couldn't be there for myself, how can I um be there for somebody else?
SPEAKER_10:And when was all that?
SPEAKER_02:That was um about six years ago.
SPEAKER_10:Okay, and that's when he started saying that you're not there for six years ago.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, and that I did not make him a priority, and how can I but I was like, I couldn't even make myself a priority.
SPEAKER_08:That was also the year he lost his father.
SPEAKER_10:Yeah. Have you gotten help for your depression?
SPEAKER_02:Um, I have, I have.
SPEAKER_10:And how are you doing right now?
SPEAKER_02:Right now I'm doing good because um I'm keeping my faith in God.
SPEAKER_10:Okay. Is he a religious man as well?
SPEAKER_02:He is not.
SPEAKER_10:Has he ever been?
SPEAKER_02:Um he used to go to church with us um before, but then he just like six years ago.
SPEAKER_10:You're you're kind of seeing a pattern here, first. So how may we help you?
SPEAKER_02:Um, I just want to know, you know, when is the time to possibly just let go? Because we're living as roommates. You know, we have a 24-year-old, he sees all of this, and it's not fair to any of us.
SPEAKER_11:How would it be better if uh you're not together?
SPEAKER_02:It probably wouldn't.
SPEAKER_10:So why would you want to separate as long as he's still there? As long as he's still there, you've got a shot at making this thing work again.
SPEAKER_02:But if you separate and that and that that's been my way of thinking too. So as long as he's still in the house, you know, there's a chance.
SPEAKER_10:That's right.
SPEAKER_02:But it's just he's very distant and conversations are short, and it's just like uh well, you know, because at least I'm trying. And I'm the only person that I can control. So that's that's correct. That's why I'm just controlling myself and I'm trying.
SPEAKER_10:How familiar are you with the principles that we teach?
SPEAKER_02:I am not, but I do plan on enrolling. As you should I just barely I just barely came across you guys yesterday on a Facebook ad, and then I jumped on and saw one of your um videos about the limerence and everything, and from that made sense. So that's why now I've just been like calling and calling and calling, and I'm happy I got on with you guys because I need the help. Yeah.
SPEAKER_10:Yeah, Tracy, we're sorry that it hurts. We really are. But you know, we we've witnessed so many similar situations to this, and so many times seen it work out. And and the faith that you have in God, hang on to that. You know, if it if you believe in the same God I believe in, he's pretty powerful. He can do some amazing things.
SPEAKER_02:Nothing is impossible for him.
SPEAKER_10:That's exactly I read that somewhere. And uh, we would love to help. When you say enroll, what are you considering enrolling in, Tracy?
SPEAKER_02:Um one of your guys' program, and just when I was on hold, I was listening to the show, and then I was listening to the one about the$29. So I'm gonna enroll in that, and I do want to enrol in just something monthly.
SPEAKER_10:Just to make sure that I'm how can she find out more about that, Kimberly?
SPEAKER_08:You know, Tracy, I can have someone reach out to you today. We have your we have your information here on our end. And so um, I'll just have a team member, if it's okay with you, I'll have a team member reach out, have a conversation, and see what the best path, next path forward for you is. How does that sound? Yes, please. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_10:Hey, Tracy, it you you hang in there, okay? We've got a lot of people on your side.
SPEAKER_08:That's all I've been doing for this for this whole year. You can do it, Tracy.
SPEAKER_10:We're on your side, Tracy. We we want to do everything we can to help you, okay?
SPEAKER_08:Thank you so much. Thank you, Tracy. Oh, she's just at the beginning. She can't give up yet. She's just at the beginning.
SPEAKER_10:No, and she's uh she's like a strong person. She does. Very much so. Good.
SPEAKER_08:Very much so. Well, we hope today has been helpful, giving you hope in your own situation, whatever that is. We will be here next Wednesday at noon. If you want to understand more about affair and delimerence dynamics and how they're affecting your relationship, don't forget to sign up for that two hour session, February 10th, 6 p.m. Central Time with Dr. Joe. We would love to see you there. And until next week, remember there is always hope.
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