Relationship Radio: Marriage, Sex, Limerence & Avoiding Divorce
Relationship Radio: Marriage, Sex, Limerence & Avoiding Divorce
The Marriage Turnaround Plan (Step-By-Step Guide)
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Tell me if this resonates. The past couple of months, maybe even years, your marriage has gone from good to bad. And if you don't do something now, you are scared that you're going to be divorced in the next six months. If that sounds like you, then what I'm going to talk about today is for you. Now, if you're in a happy marriage and you only bicker every once in a while about how to load the dishwasher, you're welcome to stay, but this isn't for you. I'm going to get deep into the issues that hurt marriages and what one person can do to save their marriage from divorce and keep their family together. I'm going to show you the seven steps that we take clients through at Marriage Helper and have taken them through over the past 30 years that has helped save even the most hopeless of situations. If it worked for them, it can work for you as well. During our time together, you may have to unlearn some of the harmful tactics that you've learned out there from people telling you how to save your marriage that honestly, half the time aren't even married. What you need to know is one spouse can save a marriage. I know this is likely not what you want to hear. In fact, we had one client tell us, I specifically went to Google and typed in, can one spouse save a marriage, hoping the answer would be no. But then she found us. But right now, 80% of you are in a place where your spouse is being a jerk. They're having an affair, they're wanting out for no apparent reason, and you want them to change. I'll tell you how that can happen in a little bit. Or maybe you're like the other 20%, where you have been the one who has screwed up and now your spouse wants out based on what you've done and you feel shame and guilt and confused. So whether you're feeling, why should I even try to save it when she has no interest? Or if you're saying, he'll never forgive me for what I've done. Here's the fundamental process that can help your marriage turn around. And the first one is this calm down. You're begging, you're pleading, you're whining. You're like the woman that we worked with several years ago who said, I followed my husband out the door to the driveway as he was trying to leave me, and I banged my head against the pavement so hard that blood flowed like a river. And he still left. She was shocked. But of course he left because you're acting crazy. Now, your behavior hopefully isn't that dramatic, but maybe it is. There's no judgment here. But you're frantic. You're up at 2 a.m. You can't sleep. You're chat GPTing your questions, and you have no real clarity. You're finding people who are telling you what you want to hear, but you still don't feel total peace. Your anxiety is through the roof, your thoughts are consumed with the fear of losing the one you love, the life that you've built, and the family that you have. You can't think straight because you're not calm. Now you might be saying, that's crazy. Kimberly, how could I possibly do that? I am in a frantic state. Of course, I am obsessively thinking about what's going wrong with my marriage. How could I think about anything else? You need a coach and you need a community. Have you ever noticed how you feel less crazy when you know that you're not alone? When you find someone else who has felt the way that you do and gone through what you are currently going through and can help you see the other side and get there. Yes, that's what you need here. You don't need theory. You need connection with others who have been where you are. The next step is get clarity. Now that you're calm and can think and see things a bit more clearly, you can get clarity on what the real issue is and what it's going to require from you. The truth that other people won't tell you is this your marriage didn't get to where it is right now overnight. According to the research, the problems you're experiencing have been simmering for six years before it got to the point where you decided to start doing something about it. So while a promise of send these six text messages to get your spouse to come crawling back to you sounds really enticing in a culture consumed with quick fixes, it won't work. Not long term. Honestly, most people I encounter are still so scared that they're afraid to do anything to save their marriage. They don't want to do the wrong thing, so they do nothing. And while waiting seems like the noble and mature thing, it rarely is. Let me say it this way. In college, I kept throwing my back out, doing the most random things, like literally putting clothes up in my closet. I would throw my back out, couldn't walk. The doctor put me on strong medication. He treated the symptom because that's what was hurting me the most. But it wasn't until I finally found a doctor who gave me a second opinion and got to the root cause. And he said, your back's gonna keep going out. Medicine isn't gonna make it better. It just eases the pain, but it won't fix it unless you actually fix your core and strengthen it. Now I haven't thrown my back out in maybe a decade or more because I did the hard work. There's a current major symptom in your marriage that you want to treat. Maybe it's your spouse's affair, your communication issues, the fact that you feel like roommates, but all of those are symptoms of a much deeper core issue that I'm going to talk about next. And until that is fixed, the symptom will keep happening. It's like taking pain meds, expecting it to strengthen your muscles. It's impossible, but it's easier to take the pain meds. It's harder to do the workout. And the same is true for your marriage. That's the only way you can get clarity, is to get moving. Now, the third point is to stop your pushes and start your pulls. I shot a quick video to help you understand what this looks like. Most people who are trying to save their marriage, they do things like nag and whine and plead and just annoy the crap out of their spouse who's wanting to leave the marriage. And sometimes it kind of feels like it's no wonder that the other spouse wants out. It's not because you're a bad person, it's because you haven't known what to do. You haven't known how to actually do the things that will pull your spouse back to you instead of doing the things that push your spouse away. It looks like this. In a marriage, when we are doing these nagging and pleading behaviors, no matter how hard we try, it's just going to push our spouse further and further away. There's nothing we can do. Our our begging, our pleading, our crying for them to come back is just a push. You can't even force the two things together. But when you start to do the things that will pull your spouse back, it's almost impossible to pull them away. They want to be around you. And then when both of you are doing things that will pull you towards each other, that's what it looks like. And I know what you're thinking. Why is all of this on me? Why am I the one responsible for doing all of this work? Think of marriage like a dance, a predictable dance. If you keep doing the same steps that you have always done, the dance is always going to be the same it's always been. All it takes is one person to change their steps for the dance to ultimately change. You, by beginning to dance some different steps, can shift the dynamic just enough that ultimately your spouse can end up changing too. Now the fourth step is forgive. Forgive yourself, forgive your spouse, forgive others in your life. Unforgiveness keeps you stuck, angry, and resentful. It keeps you in a victim mindset. Step four is technically two things. It is forgive and then reconcile. So everything up until and after forgive, you can do yourself, no matter what headspace your spouse is in. And you need to forgive in order to reconcile anyway. But the second part of step four is reconciliation. And there's a five-step process that we guide you through when you're a part of our process and a part of our program to help you and your spouse reconcile in a way that sticks. And then step five is to build back trust. Step six is to reignite passionate intimacy. And step seven is to create your dream life together. Right now, I know that you want to get to steps five, six, and seven. But you can't get there without going through steps one through three and a half. And we can help you do that. In the programs that we have at Marriage Helper, you can start as a solo or as a couple. Either way, we can help you get from step one to seven. No matter what you do, stop making things worse and start doing the right things in the right order. You're not crazy, you're also not powerless, and you don't have to guess on what to do anymore. These seven steps that I have walked you through literally are the steps that we guide our clients through. And our program, where our couples workshop has a 70% success rate at saving marriages. Now, if it sounds like it could be a good fit for you, then we would love to just have a conversation with you. Our team is amazing. You can book a private conversation with one of our advisors so we can hear more about your story and see if the program that we offer and the seven steps that I've guided you through here fits and makes sense. We keep our program small, the workshops that we do inside of our program, we keep them small and intimate in order for you to get the attention that you need, the space to be taken care of, and to honestly be seen and heard. We care about the results of what you get in your marriage. And even if you end up not choosing marriage helper to work with, I hope you end up choosing somewhere that can help you truly get to creating a dream life together, to having the family that you've always dreamed of, to having your family back together, to being in a loving, stable, fulfilling relationship. Because ultimately, that's what we all want. No matter what your situation, I just want you to remember there is always hope. And if you've lost yours, you can always borrow some of mine. Now, let's go to the first caller.
SPEAKER_06:I thought that was funny when you said that. If you don't have your own, you can have some of mine.
SPEAKER_01:You can have some of mine. Why not?
SPEAKER_06:How would they get that?
SPEAKER_01:Believe it. Open your heart and your mind. All right, fair enough. Take some hope. Well, Joe, we just walked through. I just walked through our seven steps that we have been talking about for years now that people can go through to save their marriage. I would love for you to add in the parts that you believe are important and crucial for people to know.
SPEAKER_06:I think all seven. The first thing, as you said, they have to calm down when it comes when people are operating out of a panic mode. It doesn't get them anywhere.
SPEAKER_01:No.
SPEAKER_06:So I I don't know that I would pick one over the other, but it's as you said, they come in order. You can't jump to number six. You can't start there.
SPEAKER_01:Aaron Powell No, you can't. That's what people want.
SPEAKER_06:They sure they do.
SPEAKER_01:They want to get to that end result, but you have to go through some stuff.
SPEAKER_06:Give me the magic pill. Give me the incantation. Uh but it's a process.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, it is a process. It is a process. And we can help you with that. Just on the outset here, as you all know, we have programs that include workshops, that include our membership program, and that include one-on-one individual coaching. And that is that is what we do. That is how we can best help you. We can help you have amazing results for yourself and for your marriage. And so if you're saying, you know what, I'm ready to get in on one of the remaining February workshops or on one of them coming up in March, I just want you to remember space is limited. And so just book a conversation to speak with one of our advisors and see if this could be a fit for you. The link will be in the chat and the link is in the show notes as well.
SPEAKER_06:And for you guys whose wives are not ready at this point, like I'm not going to the workshop with you. We do one just for men. It'll be coming up starting the last weekend and going into the first day of March, the last weekend of February. Uh, Lord willing, I myself will be leading that particular workshop. And uh that's the plan. That's what's supposed to happen, unless something happens in the meantime to stop that, which would be something quite unexpected. We really uh would like to see you there, guys. It's uh one of the most uh fascinating workshops to be part of is the one that that the other workshop leaders we have trained uh fight with me. They want to leave that one. But you know, being the founder, I have a little bit of an edge here. And I get to say, no, that's my workshop. I'm going to do it. And so it starts um the 27th, I think it is 27th of February, and then the 28th will be Saturday, and then March 1st would be Sunday. And if you want to know more about that, you need to contact us. There's a number right there on the screen. And uh if you call, oh, that's that's a different number on the screen.
SPEAKER_01:That's the number to speak with us today. Ask a question.
SPEAKER_06:And so if you wanted to talk to one of our people, how would you do that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there's a link in the in the chat or in the show notes if you're watching this later. You can click that link and schedule a time. Someone on our team will call you at a time that's best for you, or if there's no times available, you'll see another button on that page where you can say, you know what, just have someone call me at their earliest convenience. Those are the best ways to do it.
SPEAKER_06:Excellent. I would love to see you, gentlemen. We'll have a tremendous time together learn a whole lot. Make some really good friends that can be your support group, and at the same time, figure out what we can do to make these relationships work.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I remember one of the uh a couple months ago at one of the men's solo workshops. So my, me, my mom and my sister, Joey, you know, your wife and two daughters. My wife, my daughters. So we all went to go to this place that's here, that's a brunch place. And it was the Friday of a solo spouse men's workshop. And as we walked in, we saw this table of about eight men all sitting together. And my mom, she said, I bet you that those are the guys that are at the solo spouse workshop. She went up. If you knew my mom, you'd be like, this is exactly that sounds just like her. She went up and said, Are y'all here for our marriage helper workshop? Bold. Of course they all were. And they were already friends by lunchtime on Friday, which was so cool to see. Because how lonely does it feel when you're a man going through marriage crisis and you feel like you have no one to turn to? That's what the solo men's helps fill the gap of and bring you that camaraderie, bring you that brotherhood.
SPEAKER_06:So it's your dot marriagehelper dot com slash book. And if you go to that, you can book a call with one of our uh uh advisors and he or she will help you figure out whether or not that's the right thing for you, and we'd love to have you there.
SPEAKER_01:We'd love to have you. Well, Joe, are you ready to go to our first caller?
SPEAKER_06:Yes, ma'am.
SPEAKER_01:Let's go to Steve from Ohio.
SPEAKER_06:Hi, Steve. Are you there?
SPEAKER_08:Yes.
SPEAKER_06:Okay. How may we help you, my friend?
SPEAKER_08:Um, I've been married for 40 years, and about five days after our 40th anniversary, uh my wife asked for divorce and left. She took it back, but we're separated. And we've been separated for about four and a half months now. Uh the first month was the first month was no communication whatsoever. And then from there it's been just once a week with a short text or something. Did she say why she wants to divorce? She doesn't know. She honestly said she doesn't know. I believe it's uh because I didn't put her on that pedestal. I didn't show her or make her first. But something had to happen.
SPEAKER_06:Steve, something had to happen for it that to happen now. Has there been any significant change in her life, like the death of somebody that was important to her uh retiring? I mean, any kind of significant change at all that that might have happened in a few months up to a year before this?
SPEAKER_08:Uh not that I can think of. Um, but she said she's been contemplating this for two years.
SPEAKER_06:Now she may have been bothering her. She may have been, but there's some reason that she s decided to do it now. So did anything change? Did she lose a lot of weight? Did she any significant change at all?
SPEAKER_08:Uh I retired first of the month, but this that was way after.
SPEAKER_06:Okay, so there was nothing preceding that. I I'd re not that I can recall. Okay. And she says she's leaving. Did she tell you a reason at all for leaving?
SPEAKER_08:She needed her space and she wanted to become independent. She said she's never been independent in her life.
SPEAKER_06:So she's working on that. Okay, so your wife, I'm assuming, is gonna be somewhere in the 60-year-old range, is that correct?
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, she's 62, I'm 63.
SPEAKER_01:Do y'all have kids?
SPEAKER_08:Uh two grown girls.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. And they've both been out of the house for several years, or was one of them there for a long time and recently left?
SPEAKER_06:Sever several years.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_06:And so all she said was she needs space.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, and and she has never been independent. She because I've always done the bills, I've done everything.
SPEAKER_06:I mean, why now? If she's been saying for a couple of years, she's been happy, but why did she make that decision now?
SPEAKER_08:That's the question. But actually, my question is how how much time do I allow for her to how much time before you do what? Steve. Before I press a little more. I've been there no communication, I'm I'm not pushing. I'm being nice, keeping calm.
SPEAKER_06:Right. But but what are you thinking when you say how much time before before what?
SPEAKER_08:How much time does it take before she reaches out to me and starts to say any I made a mistake, I want to come back to you?
SPEAKER_06:We we can't answer that, obviously. That's only within her head. And based on what you said, based on what you said, she says that she herself doesn't know the answer to that. And so when you say how long should I give her space, I keep thinking, well, what what will you do when you decide it's time? What would you do?
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, I don't start communicating more, talk to her more, find out if she's ready to come back. Would she would she respond to you?
SPEAKER_06:There is no average, my friend. Yes, she probably would. Okay, well, if she would talk to you, and if she wouldn't be offended, then why aren't you talking to her?
SPEAKER_08:I'm disrespecting her, you know, face and her voices.
SPEAKER_01:Steve, you started saying something uh a bit ago where you said I haven't been you said something about her wanting to be treated like a princess, or you haven't been treating her like a princess. What were you saying?
SPEAKER_08:I haven't been putting her on that pedestal. Like I always she she doesn't feel like she's number one in my life anymore. And I can see that. I you know, we go places and I forget to introduce her as my wife or this or that. Looking back, I wasn't a very good communicator.
SPEAKER_01:So do you think that if you stop communicating with her now, that that's going to help change that narrative in her head?
SPEAKER_08:Well, she's the one who doesn't want the communication except for once a week. That that was what she told me. So I'm just respecting that and doing that. I see.
SPEAKER_06:Um that once a week.
SPEAKER_08:What are you talking about? Nothing much. Uh it's Wednesday morning. This morning she sent me a text document I asked her for and said, here's the document you requested. And I wrote back, thank you. And that's usually how it goes. Just quick, short, nothing, nothing about us.
SPEAKER_01:Steve, I think you're gonna have to lean into figuring out how to talk about things with your wife. Being able to ask her, how's your week been? Can you tell me what's been going on? You you're gonna have to lean into your emotional side. She is, I again, I don't know her. We don't know why she wants out of the marriage. But would you venture to say that maybe you haven't been leaning into that emotional side of connecting with her in a way that she might need.
SPEAKER_10:Uh I probably need your workshops what I need.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. I think that's a great idea, Steve.
SPEAKER_06:Then then come. Then come to the workshop where and uh at the end of February, I'm doing one just for men. Come be part of that. And that way we will be able to talk much more at length than we can right here, obviously. And you'll learn a lot of interesting things. And so if you think the workshop would help, and of course we believe in the workshop, but if you think that'll help, then please uh talk to one of our advisors, line it up, come to the men's workshop. And if you do that, you need to point out to me, hey, hey, Joe, I'm the guy you talked to whose wife left after after 40 years, and uh want to be able to get something from this workshop that can help me know how to communicate with her, and we'll do the best we can to help you, my friend.
SPEAKER_08:I appreciate it. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you, Steve. I appreciate it. You know, Joe, this is that point of get clarity, that second step that we talk about in the process. You have to be able to somehow, even if you don't get it 100% accurate, you need to narrow in on understanding what led the other person to leave as best you can. Otherwise, you're just shooting in the dark, which it sounds like Steve was doing.
SPEAKER_06:I'm not sure that's correct.
SPEAKER_01:Tell me more.
SPEAKER_06:Okay. In the sense that that what you do is the same thing no matter what it is they're doing. Whether you're going to work on yourself, kind of best you can physically, intellectually, emotionally, spiritually. And not knowing, of course, can drive you nuts, like I wonder what's happening out there, but you can't always know. And the things that you need to do, you can do without having any real knowledge of what's going on there at all. Now, people say, well, uh, how can I know? Just somebody like Steve and say, okay, here are a couple of things to think about. Number one, think back. Not just a few months, think back a few years. What kind of things that she said to you that indicated that she was unhappy, that she was unfulfilled? What kind of things has she mentioned to you that she wanted? Not physical things necessarily, but like I need closeness, I need you to pay attention to what I say, I need you to be more romantic. All those kinds of things that we guys particularly know women can as well. But we guys particularly sometimes will ignore that because we know we're not doing bad stuff. I don't know why you want all that. I'm a good guy. I'm not drinking, I'm not going out with women, I'm not doing this, I'm not doing that, and so you should be happy. Well, while it's important that we don't do bad things that will destroy the marriage, you don't build a relationship by not doing the bad things. Now you keep from destroying the relationship by not doing the bad things, but you don't build a relationship. To do that, you have to do positive things. And so the first thing I'd recommend to him with is to think back. You know, get you a pen, some paper, journal, think back to anything that she has said that you can remember. And and the more you think about it, the more you will remember that she's done over the or said over the last year, two years, three years that where she was actually giving you the information, but for whatever reason, you just didn't pick up on it, you weren't paying attention to it, you didn't think it was that bad, but now it is. The second thing is if there are people who know her who are talking to you, listen to them. They may be able to tell you a lot, but when somebody else, a third party, is telling you this is what your wife is doing, what your wife is thinking, et cetera, et cetera, always, always take that with a grain of salt. What I mean is they may be telling it accurately, they may not be telling it accurately, they may be misinterpreting what they heard, or they may have heard from another person, heard heard from another person, and now they're giving you that watered-down fifth-hand information, which can be dramatically different from what she actually feels or thinks. And so, yes, I'm gonna pay attention to what she said before. I'm gonna journally figure that out as best I can. And yes, I'm gonna listen to people who know her, people that I can trust, but even then, I'm gonna be very careful about believing what they say because they could be leading me astray. And then if you're a religious person, another thing I would recommend is you pray. Give me wisdom to understand what's going on here, what's happening. And so with that kind of clarity, you may not know exactly what they're doing, but at least you can start finding peace within, and and then you start doing the same things you would do otherwise.
SPEAKER_01:I believe that does help with clarity, though.
SPEAKER_06:Yes, all of those things. Which you still wouldn't necessarily know what exactly they're doing.
SPEAKER_01:Right, right. Well, let's go to our next caller. Let's go to Chrissy from Pennsylvania. Chrissy, how can we help you today?
SPEAKER_03:Hi, Dr. Joe. Hi, Dr. Kimberly. Yeah, Kimberly, sorry.
SPEAKER_01:Hello, you're fine. How can we help you today, Chrissy?
SPEAKER_03:So me and my husband have been separated one year. Um for the first, so from last February until this past October, I was the one who moved out. Um once October hit, I could no longer live at the place I was living. So I told my husband that I was going to be moving back home. And at that point, he agreed to try an in-house separation. Well, to my surprise, the night before I moved home, he called me and told me that he had already moved out two weeks before that. Um, so I was pretty bl pretty blindsided by that. Um, leading up to that, we had actually been making progress. We were talking regularly, um, you know, we were having good conversations. Once October hit and he realized that he was gonna have to share a space with me again. I think he just panicked and he pulled way back. He asked me to stop calling him for anything related to logistical things. He asked me to stop bringing, you know, don't bring up anything, relationships.
SPEAKER_01:Were you the one? I know you're the one that left, Chrissy, but were you the one who wanted out of the marriage, or was it him that wanted out and you and him leaving?
SPEAKER_03:It was him, it was him that wanted out. Um, the reason I left was because he said that he would take care of all the bills if he stayed in the house. Like he would pay the mortgage if he was living in the house. And at the time, I didn't have a job, so I couldn't afford our mortgage, so that's why I left.
SPEAKER_01:Got it. And our kids in the house too, or no?
SPEAKER_03:Nope.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:So things, you know, for the since October, we've just been dealing with business related things. Um, texting maybe once a week or once every two weeks about logisticals. Haven't really talked to him on the phone. Um Saturday night, he came over because I had a bunch of mail for him. I hadn't seen him since October. Um and he was not wearing his wedding ring. And he told me that he no longer wanted to be married to me, that he had clarity, and that he was going to file for divorce. Um when he said that, my reaction completely shocked him. I didn't cry, I didn't scream, I didn't beg, I didn't do all the things that I would have done a year ago, or the things that I did do a year ago. Um I was calm, like I was a marriage champion in that moment. And by doing so, after an hour of talking, he was so confused. He said, I came over here 100% certain that I wanted a divorce. He said, I've been living my life, not having to deal with you, not having to have you be my problem. I've you know, I I'm I'm doing my own thing and I'm enjoying it. And now I'm here and I am utterly confused. So, long story short, um we ended up having sex, which is something that we haven't done, and that shocked him too. He's like, I am so attracted to you right now. Sounds like a good night for you, Chrissy. It was a good night. However, he said he said, Listen, I see that you've changed into a better person. That doesn't mean that you're a good person, that you're a good fit for me. He said, I don't believe that you truly ever understood me. And he said that the next night. Or before he said it that night.
SPEAKER_02:Before or after you made a lot of things, both, actually.
SPEAKER_03:He said it before and then he said it again after.
SPEAKER_06:Did you say it with a different tone of voice afterwards?
SPEAKER_03:Did he say it with a different tone of voice?
SPEAKER_06:Afterwards.
SPEAKER_03:Um before it was more anger because he was angry at himself.
SPEAKER_06:And after it was what?
SPEAKER_03:For changing his mind. He was like, what the heck? Like, and afterwards it was right. And afterwards it was it was honestly, it was utter confusion.
SPEAKER_06:There you go. He was just So you're making progress. You went from anger to confusion. That's a good step in the right direction, Chrissy. That's good.
SPEAKER_03:So he said, he said, This is what I'm gonna do. And I feel that this is manipulative. Like I feel that this is manipulative for him to say this, but uh, I'm gonna go with it because it's making progress. He said, I think that you have ever understood me. If you can tell me and prove to me that you understand me, I'm willing to take baby steps with you. Good. And you know, that's not manipulative, by the way.
SPEAKER_06:He wants to be understood. He wants to feel that you understand, which means you not just understand his actions, that you understand his emotions. That's what people almost always mean. When I want you to understand me, what I'm saying is I want you to understand how I feel. And that's what that mounts to. And if that's what he's looking for, if that's what he wants, and he says, if you can start doing that, I'll take baby steps. I don't hear that it's manipulation. I hear that it's a step in the right direction.
SPEAKER_03:So um are you still there?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we're here.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, sorry, I heard a beep. I didn't know if I got disconnected. So he said, he's like, I'm not gonna put you on the spot. Like, you can have, you know, a few days or whatever, and we can revisit this conversation. He's like, but if you can't prove to me in another conversation that you understand me, then I can walk away knowing that I truly tried everything. Yeah. Because one of the things I said to him when we were talking was, You think you've tried everything, but you haven't. You haven't tried with the new version of me. And so what did that be a person?
SPEAKER_06:You're challenging him at this point. What does challenging him accomplish? You see, if he wants to be understood, here's what I would recommend that you do, Grizzy. When you have the next conversation with him, say, you know what? I've been thinking about our life together, and I realize that you feel I don't understand you. So before I just start talking and saying, here's what I think about you, or here's what I think you think, feel, want, desire, whatever it might be, may ask a few questions. And ask the questions about emotions. Like the other night when we were together, what did you feel? And if he says, I'm not really sure, you say, I understand. So can you help me understand more about why was it that you were confused? And if you keep listening to his emotions, if you keep listening to his emotions, he will felt, he will feel understood without you saying anything. You can ask the questions, and if you ask intelligent questions, not to manipulate him, not to use him, but questions where you're really, really looking to get information. I really want to know what you think and feel. And if you can do that, he will feel understood, and you don't have to say anything, but ask those questions, and then feedback to him. Okay, uh, okay, I'm understanding that you were confused because you had this narrative all worked out in your head, and then I didn't put the narrative anymore. I can understand. I can understand exactly why that's confusing because you had one picture of me and I didn't live up to that picture. And then keep talking, asking questions like that, and that's when he will feel understood. Right, Kimberly?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. Chrissy, it says on our notes that he agreed to take baby steps and do marriage helper with you. Is that right?
SPEAKER_03:If I yes, if I can convince him that I understand him. If he doesn't think that I understand him, he's not even gonna try. That's just that all goes off.
SPEAKER_01:Ask questions and ask questions. You know what, you know what to do, and you can you can do this. The way he has said it to you isn't great. I would also feel a bit riled up about someone saying it that way. But take the the mind, like he's in a state of confusion. So try and give him some grace in the way that he worded this to you. But Joe is right. At the core, he's just wanting to know that you can understand him and who he is and accept him for that. So do that without pushing. Ask those questions, listen to him, let that happen for the next time you talk, the next couple of times you talk, and as soon as you can, get to our workshop because it's gonna give you a shared language and you're gonna be able to really understand each other a lot better with with the tools that you would learn there. But you you're on a great track, Chris.
SPEAKER_06:Sounds good to me.
SPEAKER_01:Awesome. Well, we are going to go to Coffee Grounds.
SPEAKER_06:Coffee Grounds.
SPEAKER_01:With Nathan Grounds. Let's head over to Nathan.
SPEAKER_00:Hey everybody. I wanted to tell you another story about a couple that I've been working with that has really excited me. I met this couple at an in-person workshop in the summer of 2025. Today is February, it was July, so I have been working with this couple for seven months or so now. And I noticed this right away when I met them in Nashville, that the wife had what I called a bite to her. Let me explain. It wasn't that she was overtly critical of her husband, but there was something about the way she looked at him, something about the way she spoke and her tone that communicated maybe it was more like contempt, like, I have lost respect for you, yes, I'm married to you, yes, I guess I love you, but I don't really see a future here, and I'm honestly kind of ticked at you. As I came to meet them and learn their story, um, their marriage was really touched by what some people call financial infidelity, being dishonest about money practices and things like that. The husband was responsible for a lot of that, which is in large part what caused the wife to have this bite. Now, the husband didn't call it a bite, he called it an edge. She kind of has this edge to her. Well, the first time I coached with them after that uh workshop in July, that bite, that edge was still there. But as you probably have figured out by now, we at Marriage Helper believe there's always hope. And so we started a journey through what Dr. Bean has developed called the e-system to help people help couples reconcile. I started working with them consistently, month after month, until last week, in this last session I had with them, I started off the session like I always do, asking them about something positive. And what was so cool is to hear the husband say that his wife had lost that edge, had lost that bite, that critical kind of side of the way that she was communicating with her husband. And surprisingly, the wife wasn't like, what are you talking about? I've never had that bite, I've never had that edge. She's like, Yeah, I have been that way. And you're right, I'm not, I'm not talking that way anymore. And her thing, which she appreciated about her husband, was that he was beginning to open up more. He was beginning to talk more openly about his feelings, his thoughts, and his dreams, which is something that she had wanted for a very long time. As we moved through the process, before the call was over, I looked at them and said, guys, I think I can still help you with coaching, but honestly, you guys might not need me after this. They were s the way that they were talking had so revolutionized that it looks like this couple is definitely going to reconcile. Again, we can't count our chickens before they hatch, and I may be coaching with them some more, and I hope I am because I enjoy talking with them. But it just goes to show you that if two people through patience and consistency will begin to do the kinds of things that can build a relationship, any marriage can be saved. Thank you for listening to me, and I hope that we can see you in one of our workshops, and maybe someday we can help you and your spouse move through a similar process.
SPEAKER_06:Now I want coffee.
SPEAKER_09:Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:Nathan's a very bright man, one of our coaches and one of our workshop leaders. Kimberly, just before we go to the next call, I saw earlier in the chat over here where people are talking to each other that basically it was a conversation. I'm going to summarize what I saw. That the lawyers and the judges are the ones preventing the marriage from being saved. And let me just say this you know, lawyers and judges may or may not be good people just like any other profession out there, may have wisdom, may not, just like any other profession out there. But they are not the ones that are going to help you save your marriage. At the same time, they're not the ones that are ending your marriage. Even if the lawyer defending your spouse becomes mean and nasty, that's what probably he or she was trained to do. Even if the judge doesn't seem to understand your pain, he or she is trying to, you know, uh make the law happen the way the law is supposed to happen. They're not your saviors. They're not gonna help you. What you need is to figure out that what's gonna change your relationship is not gonna be by legislation. It's not gonna be by law. It's gonna be by you doing everything you can to be the best person you can be. And if you say that's not fair, I don't want to do that, then don't. You don't have to. You can let the marriage end. But if you want to save it, don't expect your spouse to be the one who's gonna make all those changes, at least not to begin with. You're the only person you can control. And when you start changing, that's when you will see the possibility and often the probability of your spouse changing. So don't count on the law. Count on you doing what you know how to do, be the best you that you can be.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Well, Joe, let's go to our next caller, Dan from Oregon. Dan, how can we help you today?
SPEAKER_05:Yes, hi, Dr. Joan Kimberly. Hello. Um I have uh two questions. Is one is how can I put my family, as much of my family back together as soon as possible? And the second question is is what happened with my wife and what's likely to happen? And so I'll tell you the uh background. My wife uh left me four and a half years ago for another married woman, um, who was her boss, and she began dating the woman.
SPEAKER_06:Um was the woman still married while they were dating?
SPEAKER_05:Yes.
SPEAKER_06:Okay.
SPEAKER_05:And they worked together and they overthrew a guy over the top of them at work, and then they had a party, uh what they called a celebratory party, a civil war party, and then they both moved up the corporate ladder to the top of their division, and then this woman who was her boss made my wife her right-hand woman, and they both got large pay raises, and uh my wife was getting pay raises, like twenty thousand dollar pay raises per year, about every three to four months. Wow. Um, from this woman who had the authority to now to to give it to her. So is the other woman still married? No. So the other woman divorced her husband. Are you still married? No. My wife divorced time. They began living together as soon as my wife left, and then they got married uh two years ago, December of twenty-three. Okay. So they're they're both married now, and um both of my daughters live with the women. My daughters are ages uh now twenty-two is the oldest, and twenty is the youngest. And what do your daughters think about the situation? Have they said? They do not want to talk about it at all. And they just my oldest daughter uh talks with me occasionally. It is very on and off. So I may hear from her for So the daughters see you as an enemy?
SPEAKER_06:Do the daughters see you as the bad guy? My youngest does. And why does she see you as the bad guy?
SPEAKER_05:Um she doesn't specifically say it's Um my daughter, my youngest daughter had a complete breakdown after she left. So um for about she became she lived with my wife and the other woman and then um became homeless, got into drugs, alcohol, and um my wife ended up putting her into a mental institution without telling me, and then I got a call from my daughter from the mental institution saying, Dad, get me out. I can't live like this. Mom put me here. So why is she still angry with you then? Um she hasn't. I I don't specifically know it could be anger issues I had in the home. Do you had anger issues? That um I don't think I do now, but I could say I did.
SPEAKER_06:So how how can we help you? Then what what what may we do for you?
SPEAKER_05:Um the two questions would be um how to put my family back together. I'm reaching out to both daughters about once every month and a half with a short note. Um whether I said this already. Um my oldest daughter does sometimes and sometimes not, and my youngest daughter did sometimes and then sometimes not.
SPEAKER_06:And so if you ask these two daughters, if you ask them to come and and have a meal with you, just to sit down and spend time together and talk, do you think they'd come?
SPEAKER_05:Um, not right now. There's been times my oldest would where she would call me up and say, let's take a walk. Um, one thing is I don't know whether I said this already, but both daughters live with the other women.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, you said that. So why wouldn't they want to come see you? What what do they have against you, these two daughters?
SPEAKER_05:Um my oldest daughter has said that she's wants me to get over my wife to let it go.
SPEAKER_06:And um And the youngest daughter says what?
SPEAKER_05:And she has just said she asked me questions about my childhood, like struggles that I went through growing up, and then she told me that mom and the other woman read all my letters and all my texts. Okay. And then my wife also told me that.
SPEAKER_06:And so is that why she hates you or doesn't like you because her mother reads the text?
SPEAKER_05:Um I don't really have a good answer. I just would say my daughter's had some mental struggles. Okay.
SPEAKER_06:And so when you say put your marriage, or when you say put your family back together, you realize that since your wife left, divorced you, and married this other woman, that the likelihood of coming of of putting it back together with her, other than through friendship, is extremely unlikely. And if it were I, I would concentrate on the daughters. And if you're gonna reconcile with the daughters, if you're gonna have some kind of relationship with them, it's gonna mean that they need to trust you. Not just trust you that that you won't hurt them in some fashion, but trust you that you'll be there for them, that that you'll love them, that you care for them, that even if they do things like get into drugs, et cetera, that you're not gonna throw them out, that you're gonna care for them anyway. You don't approve of that behavior, but you are with them and you love them. So I don't know how you could put together a relationship back with your wife. When uh particularly with women, but it's also true with men, when we have worked with couples where that one spouse lived for another spouse of the same gender, uh, we have seen very limited success with that. Things are going on there that's uh that uh we who are heterosexual don't really understand. As a matter of fact, we we have a PhD here in Nashville that we work with occasionally on things, and and she says that to us. He said, Joe, it's much too complex. She wrote her PhD dissertation about same-gender relationships, and she said, it's so complex, so many things going on that that uh if I were you, I wouldn't try to help because you're not gonna understand. And therefore, we work with people we do understand. And so I don't think you're gonna have good success there. If it were I, I would concentrate on putting in a relationship with my daughters. And the only way to do that is to demonstrate to them that you love them, that you care, that you're gonna be there for them. And so I wouldn't uh harangue them. I would just simply ask them. You know, I would I would love a chance for us to sit and talk. I'm not gonna talk about your mom, I'm not gonna talk about what your mom's doing. I just want to talk about us and and how we can have a father-daughter relationship. Would you be willing to have that conversation with me? And perhaps it'd be better to do it one at a time. I would, if it were I, I'd probably start with the elder daughter, and then after that the younger daughter, because the elder daughter might be able to help you with the younger daughter. Kim really am I totally off track with this?
SPEAKER_01:You know, Joe, I we don't we don't that's I don't think you're off track. I don't think you're off track. Dr. Dad. I don't think you're off track. I think that there was something Dan said at the beginning about how these two these two women overthrew like a man boss that I'm wondering, and I can't know, but I just wonder if there's a hatred towards men that's in that house that is affecting the daughters.
SPEAKER_06:Possible.
SPEAKER_01:I don't know. And we, you know, we didn't have time to ask those questions, but uh that is so prevalent nowadays as well. There's so much division in so many ways, politically, sex-wise, like gender-wise, all of those things where, and that's a very common thread that's even been happening in the therapy community. Um, and I believe this is gonna line up to the next caller we're gonna take from the notes that I see. But it's amazing the statistics, well, maybe not even statistic, and anecdotal evidence of women who go see women therapists and end up turning against men. And so, with all of that being said, is it hopeless? No. It just makes it even more important to try your best to salvage the relationship, especially in Dan's case case with his daughters, by being calm with them, listening to their emotions, letting them know he's gonna accept them no matter what. That's if there's any, which we don't know, but if there were any narrative in their life about not being able to trust men, then at least he would be doing everything who he could to overcome that. That's my those are my thoughts.
SPEAKER_06:I think you're right. Let's We're running out of time, so I guess we need to go to the last call as quick as we can.
SPEAKER_01:Let's go to V from Georgia.
SPEAKER_07:Hello, uh Dr. Joe.
SPEAKER_06:We can barely hear you. Could you speak up a little bit, please? Yes, I'm sorry about that. Uh, can you hear me now? Yeah, I can hear you better now. Thank you.
SPEAKER_07:All right, yeah. So my question is how do I stand up for my um marriage when I have no contact with my spouse due to uh falsified TPO and uh what is a PPO before that? Uh is a uh it's a temporary protective order.
SPEAKER_01:Oh TPO, okay.
SPEAKER_07:Um did she get a protective order against why um it was uh made up things as far as like things like uh violence. I'm not a violent person, I've never been into the law. Um, professional uh uh she claimed that, but even her father was disturbed by that because he knows that I'm not a violent person either. So he could he couldn't make sense of it either. Uh he came to the house to be with us and he's like he doesn't understand why she's afraid you're not dying.
SPEAKER_06:So Well, I can't we can't help you figure out how to get it past the protection order. I mean, that's a legal thing. We can't help you with that.
SPEAKER_07:That's not that's not what I'm asking. So what maybe help you with? I'm just trying to figure out how do I keep standing um um for something like that uh when I have no contact.
SPEAKER_06:Now I'm I'm seeing on what's written up there on the screen when you talk to our screener that uh she asked for time to spend uh focus on herself, and then while she was in therapy, she turned against you. Did that turning against you happen after she started into therapy?
SPEAKER_07:Uh after she started in therapy, I think both her and the therapist uh mentioned to me that, well, um something along the line that she needs to focus on herself to take time for herself. She feels like she has no power or control. And I was like, who took that away from you? You always have power and control uh from whatever you need to do. I never constrained you from doing anything you wanted to do. So where are we getting from this?
SPEAKER_06:So it's a therapist, male or female? Female. It's kind of the same thing you were just talking about, Kimberly.
SPEAKER_01:I know. Yeah, it it it's the I can't say this because I don't I can't say this as definitive because I I don't know. But if I were to put money on it, V, I would say this female therapist has put a narrative into your wife's head that has led her to to vilify you even more than maybe she already was. And this isn't this isn't new. I remember a client that we had, gosh, probably 14 years ago now, and his wife, same thing. They came through our workshop. She ended up going to see a female therapist. She gave the female therapist gave her this book. I can't remember the name of it, and it was just all about bashing men. There's this this has happened for the past 20 to 30 years in therapy, there's been this trend.
SPEAKER_06:A very famous uh marriage counselor who has written several books, whose name I can't give you because he scored me. I would never tell him. But I'll tell you what he said. I just don't I won't tell you who he is. He said that if you have a uh a wife that's having any kind of problem with the husband, particularly if there's some anger involved in it, and she goes to see a female therapist who is anti-men or angry at men, he said that's the the strongest predictor of divorce that there is out there right now.
SPEAKER_01:My gosh. There was an Instagram reel I saw the other day of this girl, and she said, it's one of those like stupid trends that's going on. It's like when you're 28 and decide you need to get a divorce, it's very important that you do that. And someone commented on it and they said, single women trying to keep other women single. And I thought, isn't that so true? Like, my gosh, why is there I'm gonna I have to get off my soapbox, but V, what you can do. What you can do is you have to fight that narrative. How do you stand? You continue to be strong, calm, gentle.
SPEAKER_06:Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. What else were you gonna add?
SPEAKER_06:I was just thinking of uh before we go off, do we have time for Michael's motivational minute?
SPEAKER_01:We gotta go to Michael's motivational minute. We gotta end on a positive note.
SPEAKER_06:So finish up.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I'm off my soapbox now. I will get so riled up, I will take us to two two o'clock.
SPEAKER_06:Okay. Well, let's get Michael's motivational minute here. And we always love that and we're running out of time, so let's go to that.
SPEAKER_04:Hey friends, a few weeks ago I talked to somebody who was absolutely convinced that their marriage was over. Every interaction with their spouse was felt like a fight when there was silence, it felt like the distance was growing. They couldn't stop thinking, well, what did they mean by that, or why did they say it that way, or why aren't they responding in the way that I'm wanting to? And so before we talked about any strategies, before we talked about any principles or boundaries or any next steps, what I challenged this person to do was to get calm, not ignore the pain, not just pretend like things are okay, but simply slow down, regulate your breathing, be able to uh come into every interaction with your best self and give your nervous system a break. And about a week later, this person came back to me and said that nothing in their marriage really changed, but the way that they saw their marriage began to change. See, being able to get calm gave him some clarity. It gave them the vision to be able to see that, okay, it's not every conversation, it's just a particular set of conversations. That in the silence, it's okay, maybe even to ask questions to draw out answers and draw responses from their spouse. And so that's why it's so important that in the very beginning part of any kind of marriage crisis or any time things begin to spiral out of control, it's so important to get calm because when you get calm, you get clear. And when clarity happens, you can really see what your next best step is.
SPEAKER_06:I love that. It was very good.
SPEAKER_01:Very good.
SPEAKER_06:He always does well. As a matter of fact, we we work with some really tremendous people.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, for sure. For sure. They make us look good. All we do is sit here for an hour on Wednesdays.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, like we work one hour a week, right? Yeah, I've got so much stuff to do. I don't know what I'm gonna have to go home tonight. But yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh man, we do. We have a great team. We would love to help you on your journey to save your marriage. So if that makes sense for you and you want to be a part of our program and upcoming workshops, go to marriagehelper.com, your dot marriage helper dot com slash book. Otherwise, we'll be back here next Wednesday at noon answering your questions. And until then, remember, there is always hope.
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