ADWIT: The Audio Drama Writers' Independent Toolkit
Want there to be more good audio drama? Lindsay and Sarah do. Each episode, they'll discuss an aspect of audio drama, examples from current audio drama podcasts, and writing exercises so writers can play along. Join Sarah Golding and Lindsay Harris Friel on a voyage of discovery on the seas of audio drama podcasts.
ADWIT: The Audio Drama Writers' Independent Toolkit
Mastering Character Dialogue: Beyond the Words
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Welcome to another jam packed episode of ADWIT with Lindsay Harris-Friel and Sarah Golding!
Dialogue is the lifeblood of audio drama, serving both the author's intent to move the plot forward and revealing what characters truly want. We explore how effective dialogue communicates information while entertaining the audience and avoiding the pitfalls of unnecessary exposition.
• Good dialogue has two essential jobs: communicating what the author wants and what the character wants
• Audio storytelling creates stronger physiological responses than visual media, according to research by University College London
• Dialogue doesn't need to spell everything out – trust the audience to fill in blanks with their imagination
• All dialogue should move the story forward into future action, not dwell in the past
• "The Dark End of the Mall" by The Truth podcast demonstrates masterful dialogue techniques
• Small talk can establish character dynamics but should be minimal in audio drama
Writing exercise: Create a standalone podcast episode based on the folktale about the woman who always wore a ribbon around her neck (see below or research!) focusing on the wedding night conversation between the two main characters.
A LINK TO The Green Ribbon ...But there are many!
Send your script excerpt to our Discord channel - here
Or ping to our email - writersadwit@gmail.com - thank you
Links Talked about herein!
The Dark end of the mall - The Truth Podcast
John Yorke Into the woods – a five act journey into story
Hitchikers Guide To The Galaxy
Audible commissioned UCL survey info
Talking points written by Lindsay Harris Friel.
Edited by Sarah Golding.
Music by Vince Friel.
HAPPY WRITING!
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Sarah and Lindsay
Hello everyone Good afternoon, good evening, good day, good morning, whatever it is where you are. Hello Twice! Hello!
Lindsay:Hello! Sarah, you know what? I love it that you open with 'woohoo'.
Lindsay:Yeah, man! Like
Lindsay:here we are at the top of the slide. This is the energy Zing.
Sarah:We've got a lot to talk about today, haven't we?
Lindsay:Yes, we do this is, oh, big stretch, big stretch. Oh, everybody, do a big stretch. Shake out your hands because we have a lot to talk about today. Shake it out. Shake it out Because this is ADWIT, the audio drama writer's independent toolkit, where we give you the tools you need to make the audio drama of your dreams and subvert the dominant paradigm at all times.
Sarah:Right! Woo. Stamped. Authentic.
Lindsay:Hey, hey lady who are you?
Sarah:I'm Sarah Golding , hello. hello, hello! I do voice, acting and writing and producing and have all the hats. And, Lindsay, what fun do you have in this realm if people haven't met us yet?
Lindsay:I am Lindsay Harris Friel, I am a writer and I write about podcasting for other people and so on and so .... So Today's topic, today's topic. What's today's topic Sarah?
Sarah:it's about writing good dialogue and more.
Lindsay:Yes, because without it, audio drama would just be a whole lot of weird noises,
Lindsay:Wo uldn't it Just just? wOOAHAHAHHEO WO AY OOHHH
Lindsay:Lindsay
Lindsay:This is sen
Lindsay:where I would usually start sending up Sarah and I getting into a submarine and going for a deep dive, exploring the trenches of the seas of dialogue.
Sarah:Hang on a second there, Lindsay. You know I'm ok. paying off that loan for that rowboat. So you know, let's just, let's just add the sounds in for a change, Right?
Lindsay:Yeah, yeah, we'll save that for later, ok, ok, so as much fun as it would be to do that. ?
Sarah:We're just gonna Okay. So, sarah, just us, just us talking, isn't it? It's dialogue, Dialogue is key. Yes, that's true In our own authentic accents, and that's actually something really important, because previously we've talked a little bit about that authentic natural born naked, as the day you were born, kind of accent, right.
Lindsay:Well, what we talked about was like recording people in their natural environments and how they speak normally, or how they speak when they typically speak, and differences between like how I speak to you versus how I speak to my mother versus how I would speak to somebody who's about to give me a lot of money, or something like that.
Sarah:Mwa! Someone you want to give a big kiss to. '
Lindsay:But I've done a lot of listening to others this time around, and by that I mean listening to podcasts like Writing Excuses and reading John York's Into the Woods. So here's what I learned. Good dialogue has two jobs, Okay. Number one it communicates what the author wants and Number two and what the character wants.
Sarah:Yay, groovy. Yes. So author and character Okay, super. But what about the moment of dangling poetry?
Lindsay:Yes, which actors always love yes, and fangirls love. Some writers run the risk of putting in that dangling moment of poetry, and the reason I say dangling is because it's hanging on nothing and it ain't going nowhere, like that scene in one of the Star Wars prequels where Anakin is slobbering over Padme and he says, oh, I hate the sand, it gets everywhere, it's whatever it was he was doing.
Sarah:Yeah, we don't remember the next bit because it's rather boring, isn't it? There's no reason for it to be there. It doesn't really make any sense with the plot. It doesn't push anything or anyone along and just makes us perhaps think of our own sand experiences and drifts us away from the plot, right? I a s t i
Lindsay:a purpose. We know that, Anakin, if he's talking like this, then we know that he never tried to hide where he was from. He's like the star athlete who goes to college on an athletic scholarship and ends up like I'm going all the way to the top, I'm never going back to the crappy little town I grew up in. I don't want to go home, man, yeah, exactly. So, Sarah, what's the? He's not sitting here going. Oh no, I grew up on Coruscant or anything. He's sitting here going. Nope, I grew up on Tatooine. I'm blue-collar man. I'm the real deal. I'm like Springsteen. So, Sarah, what do you? The purpose of that?
Sarah:I hate sand thing, is Well I guess he's showing Padme how he really truly feels about Tatooine right and his background and show that actually now he just wants to follow her to the ends of the earth, to follow her to those fancy space castles in the sky.
Lindsay:T hough those authors, they're tricky aren't they? They are tricky. It's about I guess setting up Tatooin e as a better place really for Obe Wan to hide, right? Because the fact is that Anakin , and so that's character intent. But what about the authorial intent, or what the writers want? How does the scene is that? or DARTH VADER ex-
Sarah:Anakin has sworn, never to return to his home planet, right, so we need somewhere more enticing, more exciting. So this hatred also makes Tatooine an itch that Anakin can't stop scratching right as an ex-matic. I'm there. I feel that Exactly yeah he's got to go.
Lindsay:But if your dialogue has been doing its job, then you don't have to have a moment of dangling poetry. The moments of poetry can be earned and the simplest dialogue becomes a moment of poetry Like I don't know. Sarah, do you want to give me your best? Sir Alec Guinness, do you have a Sir Alec Guinness in there?
Sarah:Oh, wait a minute. Where is he? That's no, no, wait a minute, where is he? That's no, no, wait a minute, that's no moon, that's no moon. No, I can't do him. That's a space station. No, I'll get there. Give me 10 minutes. It's better than most people.
Lindsay:That line that's no moon, it's a space station has a huge effect because of everything that's come before it and everything that's going to come after it. And, speaking as someone who was there in the theater when Star Wars opened as the perfect target audience, being a seven-year-old girl, I can tell you right now that the effect on that audience, because it was so early in the movie that's no moon, it's a space station, along with everything leading up to that moment, it had the effect of like when you're on a roller coaster Authentic dialect, everybody Beautiful.
Sarah:Love it.
Lindsay:Artificial intelligence can't do authentic dialogue, can't do bloopers in there. Let's get back to the point. Lindsay, I can tell you right now that the effect on that audience because it was as early in the movie as it was, along with everything leading up to that moment, it had the effect of the first huge peak on a roller coaster like here we go. Yeah.
Sarah:Makes your tummy go whoop-whoop yeah.
Sarah:I mean, I guess the prequels themselves are easy to analyze, aren't they? And of course, you know, many people love them. I wouldn't say everybody, but lots of people love them very much because they became so ensconced in our psyche because of many, many reasons. But also, you know these big budget film studio executives. They know where it's going. You can, of course, cast those younger, prettier versions of everyone's favourite characters and it might evoke that nostalgia and heartbreak for the audience. But at least I guess that's not really the true importance, is it? I mean what? Okay, lindsay, let's, let's deep dive now. Are you ready? You got your scuba gear on? Because I think we need to talk about what good dialogue truly does.
Lindsay:Yes. A ( a A!)
Sarah:Yes, and no more films. No more movies, as you guys say. I think we should talk about audio drama, shouldn't we? Yes, Because that's the AD. Yes, that's the ad.
Lindsay:Dialogue works the same way that actions do in a plot. If you remember when we talked about Rube Goldberg devices that we talked about in our episodes about plot dialogue can work the same way. So good dialogue is turn by turn. It's what you or a character say to get you. The author says to move the plot along, or what the characters do to get someone to do something.
Sarah:Okay, that's function right, but what about actually being fun and entertaining and witty and exciting and dangerous and all those things In? Be
Lindsay:Writing Excuses. It was season 17, episode 29. They talked about entertainment Sarah, you're so good at this Because they talked about Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Why don't you do the quote here? Because you're cute.
Sarah:Another part is to be Guide to the Galaxy entertaining. Funny, to reward the reader for reading. It conveys information, but we mask that to keep the reader from noticing. Beware the unmasked info dump. Evoke an emotional response. There you go.
Lindsay:Yeah. IF YOU HAVENT FOUND THAT
Sarah:Guide to the galaxy yeah, I mean, it's beautiful show and if you haven't found that and listened to it, there's albums and tapes and cds and online grieviness available all over the place. So get yourself educated, because I think that will inspire you to write more and even better, I do feel. But I think, with regards to the content, right, it was half encyclopedia, wasn't it? Yeah, with reveals about various world-building, exciting things that were so funny that people are still talking about the details of the purpose of the towel I mean, there's towel day, for goodness sakes or the recipe for a pan-galactic gargle blaster, which I did find in Switzerland, of all places, which was glorious. So, you know, this is like an encyclopedia talking and other characters, and that's a really fun way of just playing with that world building and some devices right, making it fun.
Lindsay:MMMmmm. Well, it's world building, but it's also it's as if, because I mean, every time I hear the encyclopedia, I can't help but think of Stephen Fry. Okay, interesting, it's like you can hear the encyclopedia's voice. The encyclopedia is a character in itself, trying to kindly explain order out of chaos, and this fits the overall premise of the story. This is a highly improbable world. How do we make sense of it? Yeah, truly. And another thing they said in Writing Excuses is think of writing as an act of hospitality. You are collaborating with your audience to create an understanding.
Sarah:I mean, yeah, for those Prince audio Rogers drama
Sarah:Nelson audiences as well.
Sarah:Right, the story is a process of co-creation, isn't it? We're just not just working here to it's one dimensional product. We're bringing our own memories and context to creating these beautiful mental pictures. I mean, for example, you know, if you'd like to imagine right now everybody in your beautiful, lovely heads a handsome prince, I mean, car it could be, you know, maybe someone like prince william, or or prince eric from the little mermaid, maybe, or could be yeah, exactly.
Lindsay:Or it could be prince, prince rogers nelson,
Sarah:oh yes who's that? who's prince?
Lindsay:How soon we forget! all right,
Sarah:Oh, do you mean Prince, Prince?
Lindsay:Exactly
Sarah:OOOOh, prince, okay, yes, sorry, I just know him as his first name, right?
Sarah:Yes, only name! Groovy. Yeah, nothing compares to him exactly ever. Oh, I feel like I could shower myself in purple rain right now. Okay, so when you um, I guess, Lindsay, when you spell it out for that audience, they don't have enough to do, do they? They perhaps might lose engagement in that way, because they're being told what to think and told what to imagine, and I guess you just get bored, right? Do you see what we did there, kids? Yeah, I'll just say it for you. So if I said a handsome prince, yeah, you can see him now, isn't he glorious? Yeah, lovely, um, so I mean audible uk, right, we all know of them. Glorious, bastion of making some groovy things. They funded a study by a university college, london, to find out whether people respond more to an audiobook or visual media, and there's a link we'll pop in the show notes that we can share with you which shows that information.
Lindsay:Yeah, and this makes a lot of sense because Audible's parent company, Amazon, has loads of money invested in audio offerings and video offerings. Do they?
Sarah:They should share it out. Yes, write to them, ask them if they'll give you some. Yeah, please give us some money.
Lindsay:You know, we're making money for them right now because we're on Amazon Music Right, the lucky buggers. So much for any affiliate program, lindsay, sorry, okay.
Sarah:If anyone would like to sponsor AdWit, please write to us at writersadwit at gmailcom. We'd love your money because, you know, it just helps us buy all of our new nail files.
Lindsay:It helps us. It helps us oh, you know what it does help us buy. It helps us buy time on Buzzsprout Of course it does.
Sarah:Yeah, we pay you for this lovely podcast to come to your ears right. So not just in time and expense, but of own personal hygiene. So we look nice, so you can hear us properly and we smell nice you can smell us nicely in the way that smell vision doesn't work okay, back on track, lindsay yes.
Sarah:So, with regards to um, tell me about the study. So the study? It had people who, who responded, listened to excerpts of glorious audiobooks and then watch video clips of the same scenes in movie versions of the book. Okay, now, whilst doing that, they wore wrist sensors that measured heart rate, body temperature, a bunch of other scientific groovy things, and the study participants said that video had more of an effect on them. But this is the thing, right, the wrist sensors measured greater physiological response when people were listening to the audiobook excerpts than the videos. So audio wins, ta-da, yeah right.
Lindsay:Exactly.
Sarah:I think with audio drama we do feel a lot of different pressure right to set the scene and we always want to make it so that it's not boring and it is engaging and it is exciting. But sometimes you don't have to. The point is, dialogue doesn't have to spell out everything. E-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g.
Sarah:It doesn't have to say hello, lindsay. I like your brown hair and pink T-shirt which says reproductive rights, health care for all. Can't read the last line You're showing me. Ok, oh, it's a big list Gun laws, voting rights, immigration, police reform, lgbtq plus rights and my eyesight can't see the bottom line, the final line is this is pro-life, Beautifully put.
Lindsay:We are going to get some nasty letters, but that could also be a bonus.
Sarah:I don't know. Yeah, man, instigate a reaction, that's what we want to do. But yeah, I mean the thing is right essentially. I can see Lindsay that this is something important that we need to tell the audience. Let the audience then fill in the rest of the blanks right, keep it scattered.
Lindsay:We don't have to have physical descriptions of every character in audio drama, because we can fill in what that person's voice sounds like for us. So yeah, dialogue that either the characters know but the audience doesn't, or that the characters don't know and the audience doesn't. But if there's dialogue that both the characters and the audience already know, just kill it with fire. In a lot of radio writing you'll hear a lot of repetition, especially in commercials where it's important to hear the name of the mattress company or whatever. I used to rely on one or two repetitions of particular words if they were key information when I wrote plays for live theater, because I'm used to the audience not quite hearing what somebody said the first time. But in audio drama podcasts, people can always rewind. In audio drama podcasts, people can always rewind. In audio drama podcasts, people can always rewind.
Sarah:Yeah, right, or just play the whole episode again and again and then review it. Yes, exactly, just as a suggestion.
Lindsay:Yes, Okay, cool. So let's talk about dialogue for authorial intent, and first we're going to talk about exposition.
Sarah:Good Lord, it's all about the exposition. Why is it the worst, Lindsay? What's wrong with exposition?
Lindsay:It has to convey what neither the audience nor the characters know and what the audience needs to know, but the characters already know. So here's an example of when neither characters know the audience. Know is easy peasy and you can have loads of fun with the reactions. Let's say you've got two people in a car about to go on a road trip. Sarah, take it away. What's under the?
Sarah:seat Lindsay, a dead mouse. Oh God, I'm going to barf.
Lindsay:Oh, lighten up and grab me the what's it called the salad tongs. Okay, so both the audience and the characters are getting the same info at the same time.
Sarah:But what you want to avoid is how did a dead mouse get under your car seat, lindsay Well?
Lindsay:as you know, sarah, I parked the car in an old horse stable where there's lots of hay. Oh yeah, you want to make the conversation move out of the past and into the future and move into future action Cool.
Sarah:So, for example, you have to get the smell of dead mouse out of this car or I'm not going on a road trip with you, mate Yep.
Lindsay:What the audience needs to know, but what the characters know, this is another kettle of fish. This is why. So this is why you have things in drama like police reports that explain and set up what's happening.
Sarah:Oh, no, yeah, Criminal offense Police.
Lindsay:Beware All that. Exactly, exactly Right. Or you can have an ingenue or the new guy, somebody who can have everything explained to them like the doctor's companions. Thank you.
Sarah:What's going on here, boss? I don't quite understand yeah.
Lindsay:Well, rocky, what we have here is a thing called a hospital, or you can have someone who's taking notes, like Watson is to Sherlock Holmes, oh yes, but Sherlock, surely the one with the golden boot is not the one we're after.
Sarah:Yes, lovely.
Lindsay:Yeah, what makes these work is when they have a deeply rooted reason to repeat information that the characters know but the audience doesn't.
Sarah:It helps to catch up, sometimes too right.
Lindsay:Yes, exactly. So, like when Watson says something like oh gosh. So the other day I was explaining no, I was listening to the latest episode of Give Me Away and one of the characters came straight out and said it might be time for you to catch the humans up or something like that Like time to explain things to the humans, and it was just like a little recap for the audience. But the characters all knew it, but some of the characters did not and the audience doesn't. So this guy, corey, was sort of that audience stand-in in that moment. But getting back to when they have a deeply rooted reason, when Watson says something like Sarah.
Sarah:Oh, that's incredible. You figured out that the Duchess killed the Grand Vizier without being in the same room. You're?
Lindsay:amazing Holmes. Right, he's saying it because of his feelings about the amazingness of Holmes' mind, not the Duchess of the Grand Vizier, but the audience gets the information the Duchess killed the Grand Vizier, which I'm probably not pronouncing correctly, even though she was in California at the time and it's 1886, and Watson holds Holmes in high regard. Then you make this have an effect on the future. For example, holmes, I could kiss you right now, exactly. So basically, this is fueled by the other part of good dialogue, which is conveying character intent or what the character wants, that revelation for the audience becomes another brick in, or it becomes another step in Watson's story.
Sarah:Yeah, and as an actor, you know it helps you to understand what on earth you're meant to be leading towards and why you're doing all these things, right?
Lindsay:Mm-hmm. Yes, exactly, John York said this, but it's pretty obvious. Every character, even if they're the butler, they have one line and it's yes, sir, they have to have a reason for everything. Yes, sir, yeah, I was in a production of Taming of the Shrew where I played a zillion characters, and one of the ones that I played was a servant who just walks in, looks at the dad, the dad tells him something, and then the servant takes a couple of other characters inside the house. So there was nothing for me to do. So I decided that my servant character was really pissed because they'd been interrupted doing work they were already doing. So I sort of came in with like what again, Even though I didn't say anything. So it gave me a reason to come into the room and have him say you know, take these guys inside.
Sarah:That's quite amusing, because when you said pissed, I thought you meant drunk. Oh, I'm so sorry, no, no, but it works both ways, and this is why dialogue is beautiful, right?
Lindsay:Yes, exactly so. We've talked about dialogue for authorial intent. Let's talk about dialogue for character intent. Let's go back to our dead mouse story. How can we show character while providing information that neither the audience nor the characters know?
Sarah:Okay, so how about you?
Sarah:have to get rid of the smell of dead mice in this car or I won't be going on a road trip with you mate.
Lindsay:So you're sensitive to odor. It's a dead mouse. Lindsay, I'm going to have to rethink my whole driving route. That shortcut near the oil refinery will never work. Okay, so how do these four lines show what Sarah wants and what Lindsay wants?
Sarah:Bon question.
Lindsay:What do you think, Sarah?
Sarah:Well, obviously this character is not a fan of smelly dead mice and decides that that will be the whole reason to not go anywhere.
Lindsay:And essentially the driver character is thinking it can go somewhere where there's other things that might detract from the smell of a mouse, right, yeah, it's like, for some reason, getting to the destination as quickly as possible is way more important than the smell of a dead mouse or having dead mouse bacteria in your car or so on and so forth. So how does it show where, what, why, etc. I think it shows they're in a car, they're going somewhere, and speed is important, but also comfort is important, right? So basic, basic, very simple exposition. You want poetry? Go read Shakespeare. So threatening, according to Brandon McNulty, good dialogue sounds natural, as you just heard me doing a minute ago. Attacks or defends, not literally, but it either pushes forward, you know, it seduces, or it convinces, or something like that. It doesn't literally attack, or it obstructs or deflects. Okay, groovy. And it also expresses unspoken meaning. The subtext, yes, subtext, my favorite. What do the characters' reactions to the dead mouse say about what's likely to happen next? I mean, sarah, what do you think?
Sarah:the next thing is going to be Gazillion things, the movie the dead mouse has caught another dead thing, or the zombie mouse the zombie mouse happens Now.
Lindsay:I don't know, lindsay, my brain goes into slots of different places for a dead mouse story, I know Probably the best thing, probably what's most likely to happen, is that we know that Sarah is a person who likes things clean, tidy and comfortable, and we know that Lindsay is going to drive like a maniac. You know that speed is more important to her. So, knowing these things, we have a couple of options, of options, and then there's sounding natural and I don't think those lines that I wrote sounded natural. But, sarah, what are some tips to make your dialogue sound natural?
Sarah:Well, I think listening to it out loud is very important.
Sarah:Listening to yourself deliver it. Listening to other people is also hugely fantastic as a writer because you get to hear other lilts and rhythms and melodies and intentions perhaps that you didn't even think of or I think, oh no, they've gone that way and that's not the way I wanted it to go. So, yeah, I think with regards to that, you know the beats of it, the whole kind of structure of it can start to really become clear as to whether it's working or not if you have it out loud.
Lindsay:You know what, Sarah? I think we've never explained what beats are, but we use that expression a lot. Can you explain what a beat is from a directorial perspective?
Sarah:With regards to timing, it's a moment that gives either credence to some tension, some builds some climactic moments. It could be if you have a beat before a climactic moment, it can underline the next thing that comes along, depending on how it's used. I was doing one thing.
Lindsay:It's sort of like yeah, Well, you know what? Well, we can use the example that we're working toward to explain beats.
Lindsay:I think Cool, but in any case, yeah, I had this experience once with writing the Automatics which you can currently find on the 11th Hour feed with the beautiful and talented Robert Cudmore, and he was playing a Scottish 18-year-old, surrounded by Americans, and he's very hungry and wants to go to the university dining hall and get dinner immediately, while everybody else is chit-chatting about something that is not important to him. And this other character, cindy, turns around and says to him like cool your jets, pal. And he says I'll cool my bloody jets once I've gotten a slice of pizza down my throat. And when Robert read it he gave me three takes of different ways of saying I'll cool my bloody jets once I get a slice of pizza down my throat. But one time he said I'll cool my bloody jets once I get a slice of pizza in me, which sounds much more Scottish and much more like something an 18-year-old boy from God knows where Scotland would say Sure, and that also sounds like something every Scot we know would say, I think.
Lindsay:Yeah, and we know a lot of Scots right, exactly, yeah, we know tons of them, hundreds. We love them, we love you, scotland.
Sarah:I'm sorry for drunk Helen, it wasn't my fault, no, you shouldn't be sorry for Drunk Helen.
Lindsay:She's the best I love her If you haven't heard the episode where Drunk Helen stops drinking momentarily. You've got to listen to it because it'll make you cry. It's so good, delicious, exactly. And one of the things also with Small Talk which doesn't? We can't, you can't afford to have small talk in a short episode, right?
Sarah:Doesn't do anything. Doesn't do anything. Why is it there it?
Lindsay:warms us up. It warms the characters up to each other. It's sort of like. But I mean, we're raising a generation of writers who spend more time hearing dialogue from the internet and streaming services than from people around them. The lack of small talk in movies and television saves time and moves the plot forward. But, as Mary Robinette Kowal pointed out in writing, excuses on TV. Nobody says goodbye when they end a phone call, unless somebody's going to die. They all just hang up on each other all the time. I don't know, sarah, what do you?
Sarah:Yeah, with regards to that, you know? I mean, the cock and bull story doesn't go anywhere at all. It's a whole film of small talk, isn't it?
Lindsay:But yeah, you're talking about movies and you said we wouldn't talk about movies.
Sarah:I did, I did. I did, but yeah. I think there's a lot of really exciting things about just looking objectively at your piece and thinking, okay, well, small talk, yeah, it shows us the status of these characters within this group. It shows us the kind of dynamic there is between them. It shows them, maybe, what they think about very either mundane or current topical things of the moment perhaps. So it can be possibly, you know, a little bit intriguing. But it is to use an American word, it's lousy.
Sarah:It's lousy for keeping your audience riveted right.
Lindsay:She says in a bad accent yeah, I mean I would say, cut it, save it and put it in as a bonus episode kind of thing. If you're running away from where the authorial intent wants the characters to go, just cut it and save it. It can make a great bonus episode. Actually, to bring up, give Me Away again over the summer. Last summer there was an episode where one of the characters comes home to meet his parents and that way we learn about his upbringing and he's trying to convince them that the choices that he's making in the main plot are smart choices and by the end of it it's sort of like what do we think about when our parents approve or disapprove of what we're saying or doing? That is going to affect our future choices. But in any case I want to get to the best episode of the Truth ever.
Sarah:Even better than Can you Find my Mom?
Lindsay:Yes, well, I don't know if I like this one better than. Can you Find my Mom?
Sarah:But let's not small talk about it.
Lindsay:Let's not small talk about it. Let's not small talk about it. It was voted the best truth story ever by listener survey. It is called the Dark End of the Mall. Yeah, and I am linking to a not 100% accurate transcript in the show notes, but that would be something that can help you. I highly recommend that you go listen to the Dark End of the Mall right now Go.
Sarah:Back.
Sarah:They're back and we're back. Phew, did you enjoy it. Thank you, wasn't it brilliant when you scared at the end? It is brilliant. Do you worry? It's so scary, can?
Lindsay:we spoil it.
Sarah:Can we? Can we? We're going to, aren't we?
Lindsay:Yes, sorry folks, and now it is time for spoilers.
Sarah:Spoilers, spoilers.
Lindsay:For the Dark End of the.
Sarah:Mall yes. For the Dark End of the Mall yes.
Lindsay:So, in the Dark End of the Mall, how do the characters use dialogue to push forward to what they want? And just as an example, it opens with a girl talking on the phone to her boyfriend.
Sarah:Colloquial I love you.
Lindsay:Yeah, exactly, I love you more. Yeah, I love you more, I love you more. And she also is like she's talking on a landline, yeah, and she says like, oh, I have to work a double. There's a dog loose in the mall. But what she doesn't say is she's talking on a landline in a particular room and she has to end the call because a customer is coming in. So we know what her priorities are. We have a pretty good idea of what kind of environment she's in. I think the fact that she's talking on a landline. A lot of the audience for the Truth has probably never talked on a landline, right?
Sarah:If they have, it's been very rare. It's not something we think about from our generation.
Sarah:Is it Because we've gone through it all, haven't we? Lindsay yeah From dying up tones.
Lindsay:And then she comes in and she starts giving the sales pitch to this guy. And the guy comes in like a wrecking ball smashing shit around and he says, you know, not on purpose, but he says I just have to sit down. And none of this is about yes, I'm here to buy a wedding dress. It's about I need to sit down. And she is dominating the conversation with her sales pitch language and he's barely speaking. So what does this tell us about the characters?
Sarah:There's a definite dynamic of one having control over the situation, pushing the plot and understanding along, and the other one there's a reason for him not being able to say much, and we learn that he's very hungry and thirsty, don't we?
Lindsay:Right, and she directs him to the food court and he repeats the food court, but it's loaded with his feelings about the food court and he talks about the pile of rubble and she's like, oh yeah, they're remodeling. So, so, as we're going along here. To be honest, as a person who has had to go to many stores to buy a wedding dress and failed, um, oh god, no, my aunt made my wedding dress and it was very lovely, beautiful, separate story.
Lindsay:My, yeah, but we went and tried on a whole lot of dresses because I didn't know what I liked and it's. Shopping for wedding dresses is depressing because you're out, you're walking around but you get tired, but you still have to try to look nice and you also know that you're going to drop a lot of money. So, yeah, shopping for wedding dresses is tiring. I'm on board with what he's talking about. Like please, I just need some water right now.
Sarah:Yes, and she does everything she can to deny him, doesn't?
Lindsay:she yes and yeah. That's the thing. She's trying really hard not to give him the water or the energy bars that are under the counter. And then, finally, he tries a different tactic, which is the wedding dress is for me.
Sarah:He wants it. Yes, I had a beautiful image of him. He looked lovely.
Lindsay:Oh, yeah, a little bit of you know the lace around the shoulders that she talks about. Yeah, and she does everything she can. He does everything she can to let him stay so he could get the water and the energy bars. And he does drop out a piece of information that he knows and I don't know if she knows. She says are you a runner? And he says, well, the past six years or so. And then he gets completely like I will do anything you want, I will do anything you want. He lets her drive the bus and then she calls security and he steals the water and energy bars. So it's like I don't think it's a good idea for us to go completely turn by turn on this. But what he finally does is it turns into the fact that she's like nope, I have to keep you here till security arrives. And he's saying they're not coming. Yeah, he knows.
Sarah:We suddenly realize he knows more than she does about what's happening. Yes, it's almost like that has flipped, hasn't it? With the few lines of dialogue? And also, I think, the tone changes as well. I think she stays pretty much the same kind of buoyancy, but his desperation does up, doesn't it? Yes, yes, yes.
Lindsay:And then finally he says you know what he says, I'm thinking of telling you a story while we're waiting for security. So he's no longer saying to her I'm not going to do as you say. He's saying to her I will do as you say While we're here. Let me tell you a little story. And this is not small talk, because he says to her well, after you hear it, you might kill me. And that tells us the audience like, oh, this is important, we better pay attention.
Lindsay:And she talks about oh, I would never kill anybody, not even in self-defense. It's not my nature. I couldn't kill if I wanted to. After you've heard the whole thing, I couldn't kill if I wanted to. After you've heard the whole thing. That dropped a big clue for me. I'd say. The big clues so far are are you a runner? Well, the past six years. And oh, I would never kill anybody, not even in self-defense. And then we get into this whole thing about 1950s, charm and blah, blah, blah. And he finally explains there's a robot, yeah. There's a war, yeah. And this guy figures out the wedding drawers have clean drinks and snacks hidden behind the counter to keep customers happy. Nobody thinks to loot a wedding dress store and he basically says to her like so you're the robot, I'm the guy who's running around and can't go outside, and she doesn't believe him.
Sarah:Yeah, she's like I've got to close up.
Lindsay:We're going to have to leave, sir Yep, because her robot emergency protocol did not click in, because she was so obsessed with policy and she was supposed to hear the emergency beacon or sound the klaxon that's going on, which she just thinks it's like some kind of fun new pop song, which is actually quite a groovy song.
Sarah:I've downloaded that it is groovy.
Lindsay:I like that song a lot. Yeah, the music actually the music in this is very the music does a great job of telling the story. Yeah and um, he says to her look, she's got a switch, she's got a plug under her arm and she has to plug herself into recharge and he does all he can, doesn't he, to try and convince her to look.
Sarah:But is she gonna look?
Lindsay:no, she's like I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna take my top off for you. You're trying to get my shirt off with my boyfriend, you of that. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And the whole thing becomes a big fight and finally she says oh no, it's 9 o'clock, time to close. Oh my gosh, it's closing time. The big dog has come back and banging on the door. The dog's banging on the door and he's like you call that a dog. That's not a dog.
Sarah:It has a human face.
Lindsay:He says that it it's not a dog, it has a human face. She says that it's like what that's like right at the very end, and meanwhile she pushes him out and talks to her boyfriend on the phone. Yeah, so it's yeah as the dog plays with his food, right? Yeah, oh yeah, and the dog plays with his food. Exactly, she says.
Sarah:She says she says something about did Steve feed him?
Lindsay:The dog doesn't look hungry anymore, or something she says I am so exhausted it's like my brain is melting. 7%. Yeah, the dog stopped barking. Yeah, someone fed him. Finally, you know what? Maybe Steve fed him. That makes me happy. Poor Steve, to hear more. I love you Steve. Yeah, to hear more. Yeah, she's going, I love you more, I love you more and she's back to her old. The tragic thing is that she's back to her old routine. This is written by Casper Kelly, it was produced by Jonathan Mitchell and it was performed by Lauren and Peter Gross, and it's fun. You should check it out. You should listen to it, if you haven't. And if you haven't, well, I spoiled it for you, but that's your fault, because we warned you in advance.
Lindsay:We told you to listen.
Sarah:Yes, do what we say. I'm joking, you can do what you like, yeah you can, but you know, it's just for your writing, right? That's the whole point of demonstrating and showcasing a piece in what? 20 something minutes? 25 minutes, oh God, I think it's 25 minutes long. Yeah, it's just a beautifully told story.
Lindsay:You get a huge story there. Oh, sarah, there was another one that you recommended I listened to was Dark London. Oh, yes, yeah, dark London. Wow, that is so good, Cool, it is so good, cool, it is so good. I loved it, oh.
Sarah:God.
Lindsay:Dark London was the one that Wireless did for the competition, the War of the Worlds competition, yes, and it's their adaptation of War of the Worlds. And I think the original intent of War of the Worlds is how much do we trust what we hear from our radios?
Sarah:Yeah.
Lindsay:And I think really the key moment of Dark London is when those two people are alone in a room, together, saying what is the best way to fight these monsters, based on inadequate information. So, in any case, all right, sarah, should we give everybody a writing exercise, you think?
Sarah:I think they're ready now. They're warmed up, they're primed to do something. Now they've been inspired by the truth, right? Yeah, they're probably sitting here saying wrap it up, dorks, I want to write.
Lindsay:So, sarah, do you know the story?
Lindsay:of the woman with the ribbon. Do you know what I do not? Ribbon? Do you know what I do not? You don't, I don't think I do. I bet if you read a version of it you would say oh yeah, I've heard this one. It's another one of these old, old tales that has made the rounds at you know campfire, scary stories, and it was written into a story by Washington Irving. It's all kinds of different things, so look up the folktale about the woman who always wore a ribbon around her neck. There's a lot of different versions, so your search terms are going to vary. Sometimes it's a red velvet ribbon, sometimes it's a green ribbon, sometimes it's a wide black band. Read it.
Sarah:I love a ribbon. Got to say I might wear some in my hair later.
Lindsay:That's a good idea. Well, that would be good for football season Indeed.
Lindsay:You can wear your red and white ribbons for England and then we're going to write a standalone, or I want you to write a standalone podcast episode about the two main characters wedding night, using the information we went over previously, like how do these two people talk to each other that moves the plot? What do these two people talk to each other that moves the plot, what do these two people say to each other that reveals or conceals or pushes things forward, and what do they do that's like largely entertaining.
Sarah:I'm excited on a wedding night.
Lindsay:Yeah, I mean, oh God, Getting flashbacks. Yeah, I, let's not talk, I've gone on one let's not talk. Oh, flashbacks to wedding nights. But anyway, there's a lot you can do with. This is the point I'm trying to make I'm intrigued, I don't know this.
Sarah:I'm gonna do this, lindsey, and I'm gonna post it in small pieces on our adwit sites you can, you can send.
Lindsay:I would recommend to people on discord put this in a like a google doc and then you could put a link in our discord server. Yes, and we can read, or you can put a link in our. You can mail, email us a link, share it with us. Yeah, we would love to read what you do with this or any other episode, because it tells me whether or not I made myself clear what do you?
Sarah:you think, sarah, I think you're crystal and I do think that, yes, people.
Lindsay:No, my name is Lindsay.
Sarah:No, we love you, Lindsay. Yes, I think folks should please write to us, send us your groovy things. If you haven't popped them on our Discord or in any other way of contacting us, write to us at writersadvit at gmailcom, why don't you? And remember that Discord right, we'd love to see you in there. It's like a gentle trickle of wonderful people doing some really exciting discussions. So, jump in, especially now we've started to release. There's a really exciting vibe in there.
Lindsay:So yeah, that was Lindsay right Avanti, as Tennessee Williams said. Thank you, happy writing. Everyone Happy writing. We are great. Happy writing. Okay, it's perfect, it's beautiful. It's like a newborn baby with webbed toes 6630. Productions.
Sarah:That's no moon, it's a that's no moon, that's that's. That's. That's no moon, that's a. Oh, shut up.
