ADWIT: The Audio Drama Writers' Independent Toolkit
Want there to be more good audio drama? Lindsay and Sarah do. Each episode, they'll discuss an aspect of audio drama, examples from current audio drama podcasts, and writing exercises so writers can play along. Join Sarah Golding and Lindsay Harris Friel on a voyage of discovery on the seas of audio drama podcasts.
ADWIT: The Audio Drama Writers' Independent Toolkit
The Power of Feedback: Transforming Your Audio Drama Through Table Reads
Click here to tell us what you think!
Table reads are an essential tool for audio drama writers to hear their work aloud and gather feedback for improvement before production. The process helps identify issues with dialogue, pacing, and storytelling that may not be apparent on the page.
• Type of table reads: in-person versus video conferencing, each with benefits and challenges
• Finding participants: seek people with strong reading comprehension, not necessarily professional actors
• Preparation: provide scripts 24+ hours in advance, include pronunciation guides if needed
• Technical considerations: choose appropriate platforms, plan for time zones, prepare for technical hiccups
• Soliciting feedback: use the Liz Lerman Critical Response Process for constructive critique
• Handling feedback: distinguish between actionable feedback and unhelpful criticism
• Rewriting process: take a break after the read, consider rewriting from memory
• Celebrating completion: recognize the achievement of finishing a draft and braving feedback
Send us your table read experiences at writersadwit@gmail.com and join our Discord to continue the conversation! Ah Gwan!
Thank you for listening! We would love your support in getting this to folks so please do share it - and also….review! We truly hope these episodes are useful - email us on writersadwit@gmail.com with any thoughts or suggestions with our hearty thanks!
Remember to #CelebrateTheWin!
Happy writing!
Sarah and Lindsay
Links mentioned in the show
Julie Hoverson’s Discord group for reading scripts
Liz Lerman critical response process
Conference Connection tools
ALITU
Cleanfeed
Zoom
Riverside
Discord
Squadcast
Google Meet
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Sarah and Lindsay
Hello hello, hello, hello good morning, good night, good afternoon, Hello Welcome, welcome. Welcome to ADWIT podcast, Lindsay! What does AdWit stand for?
LINDSAY:ADWIT stand s for the Audio Drama Writers Independent Toolkit. We are here to give you the tools that you need to make the shows you want there to be in the world. What a beautiful world.
SARAH:It needs your stories. If you're listening to this and feeling despondent, stop that. Right now we're going to help you. So listen up, yes, Li sten. What is our focus of today
LINDSAY:Today... We are going to talk about I hate, I'm so tempted to say 'so you have a script... Now what?' Yep, but that's not not very nice. That's you know. Yay developmental tools. Yeah, we're going to be talking about table reads, feedback, writing is rewriting, drafts, so on and so forth, and right now is the point where you pat yourself on the back. But before you go any further with that script, we think you should have a table read, or I think you should have a table read, but both of us believe you should get some feedback and then rewrite. And we are going to show you how to host a table read, set expectations and solicit feedback. We're going to talk about handling feedback the good, the bad and the ugly and we're going to talk about rewriting with feedback.
SARAH:How exciting. I do love a table read.
LINDSAY:I have to say it's one of my favourite things because there's no pressure.
SARAH:As a voice actor right, I love it, but also as a producer and as a writer oh my, to hear your words said out loud and then you go oh, that's not working, yes, all right, that sounds good, actually, yeah what I love is when, if an actor stumbles over a well, we can get to this stuff.
LINDSAY:But if you hear, if you hear a performer stumble over a particular line that you've written more than twice, it's two times two times, two times. You can keep it three times. I don't know.
SARAH:You gotta read she's not a lady, yeah so okay, yeah, so now you know what we're at today. So come on, settle down, sit back, relax and enjoy. Let our beautiful voices just massage you into, to the love and joys of the table yes so yeah, so what? What do people want to do then? At this table, read what are the, the general things? What does it even mean, lindsay, to explore that? First, I think, just sit at a table and read I, I, I.
LINDSAY:There's two different ways in now, in the 21st century, that these can be done. One is to do it in person, in a room with collaborators, so on and so forth, snacks, and there's also, uh, doing it over video conferencing software, and both have their good, good traits and bad traits, yes, yes. So one of the things I've seen a lot of is people who you know they'll post on the audio drama hub on Facebook or they'll post on Discord in various audio fiction groups. They'll say hey, I finished a script. The one that scares me is when people hey, I finished a script.
LINDSAY:The one that scares me is when people say I finished a script, I'm going to send it to Realm or I'm going to send it to QCode or something like that, and it's always like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, you finished a script. They're sort of like I finished a script, now what do I do? Or people who will say I finished a script, can anyone read it and give me feedback? Or people who will say I've finished a script, can anyone read it and give me feedback? And handing it off to one person who's willing to read it and give you feedback is fine. There's nothing wrong with that, but your story is only interacting with one person their opinions.
SARAH:So many perspectives and opinions just from one person, but it's not enough really is it yeah it's really not enough.
LINDSAY:They're experiencing your story in the way that it was not meant to be experienced. It's meant to be heard or it's meant to be experienced. I want to make sure that I'm using inclusive language, and I understand that everybody experiences audio drama in different ways, and for some people that's through a transcript. But there's a reason that audio drama is written the way it is, and reading the script on its own is not the optimal way for the medium to be experienced it should not just be inside your head, it should be, out loud and able to those vibrations hitting your ear stirrups with velocities and tensions and moments of excitement.
LINDSAY:Yeah, groovy.
SARAH:I truly agree. But also, you know, getting your actors together or people who can hopefully act together to read it and give it some semblance of the vibes and the rhythms and the paces that it's going to have, it's really useful. So if you can get people who are actors together, brilliant. But if you can't get people who can do a half decent job and do that anyway, get it done anyway, because you'll get so much reward from listening to your words out loud.
LINDSAY:Actually, you know what I'm going to? Yes, and you, I'm going to see your, get your actors together and I'm going to raise you. What you really need are people who have great reading comprehension. I don't know how many actors are dyslexic or Quite a few, actually.
SARAH:I've met on my travels. Yes, and they are astounding actors.
LINDSAY:Yes.
SARAH:They've stopped them and held them back and though, although it is something really hard to get through, their strategies and ways that these folks have learned to get through and stay. Amazing.
LINDSAY:What you want. I once had the experience of being at a staged reading at a place that was open to the public, and this girl I'm sorry I call her a girl because she was fairly young, but this woman really, really, really wanted to participate in the reading thing and she really in the reading series, this writing workshop that we had, and she really wanted to read writing workshop that we had, and she really wanted to read and her reading comprehension was so poor and nobody knew how to tell her you're slowing down the whole thing. Yeah, that's difficult. So really, yeah, it was very difficult. And a script that should have taken us like maybe 90 minutes with a break to read, ended up just going on and on and it was so painful. So I'm going to say cold reading is an art, it's hard. The break to read ended up just going on and on and it was so painful. So I'm gonna say people, some, cold reading is an art, it's hard and not everybody is good at it.
LINDSAY:And those people who are buy them lunch, buy them snacks, bring the snacks, baby do whatever you have to do, treasure them and take care of them, because these, yes, give them a good massage if they want it, only if they want it.
SARAH:Threaten to buy them a pint afterwards. If they're any good, that might work.
LINDSAY:Yes, yes, you know, take good care of them. And these are the people. Sarah, you have way more experience with video conferencing readings than I do. I think I've had about maybe three total, and you are doing them all the time. You 21st century voice acting diva oh man, frig it. I want more Seriously. So tell me what's your experience with those Like what's a standout, what's a watch out? Stand out, some watch outs. I like that Stand out, some watch outs. We're going to keep that no more. Anyway, go ahead.
SARAH:Yeah. So I'm going to talk about two things, because there's one where you have never seen the script before and it is a complete and utter cold read, and you've just been perhaps given a heads up on what character you might be play ing and a little bit of information, so let's say, a paragraph full of this to orient yourself as to the style of character you're playing, their age, their kind of attitudes and anything important, and that I absolutely love those table reads. I think, with regards to just jumping in, you know that you're there to serve the script, you're there to help whoever's trying to develop this, to make it. You know either that they understand it works or it doesn't work. So it's really important that you are, you know, well watered, well refreshed and psychologically ready for, for you know, doing things off the hoof and some things you know when you speak might not land well first time, but you know that's just going to be the lay of that land when you're reading a cold script.
SARAH:So, yeah, and I love meeting new people. I think that's the other thing right, it is a social potential and you could meet other voice actors, other people, creatives, writers, who, if you do a good read, they'll go. Oh, I really like that person in the read. Yeah, I can invite them to audition and you know, and then you might get ahead of the queue as far as other things are concerned.
SARAH:So yeah, I've read various things in that kind of manner, but it's also nerve wracking because there is some pressure on some of the producers and writers and so on to get and rinse the table, read for as much as they need. What do you mean? In as much as there's a time pressure time pressure perhaps you know you've got an hour to get a, b and c done, um, and then there's d, e, f, all the way to z, which is on the priority list of the production team, right? So, um, sometimes it can be quite cold. In as much as there are named by name and nature, and as much as there isn't enough time for like social stuff too.
SARAH:You are just, you're in there, you read the script and it's done and it's like bye, so there's that which is kind of like which, but at the same time, uh, yeah, I, I do like to try and form relationships of some kind in a friendly kind of way. So, yeah, I find that kind of way harder, whereas also, for example, if I've got a table read where I've been prepared, I know the script, I've read and I've marked up my script right, I've been diligent, I've done some research, I might have already talked to the director, the producer or the writer or all of those people just to fathom, okay, where is this, these beats, important? What else do I need to be lifting from the script? What does attitude, what kind of paces and so on, and emotions wise, how far do you want me to go? Um, so there's lots of questions you can ask the uh, the people involved sarah, actually real quick.
LINDSAY:Um how much? In my opinion, I think that if you're asking somebody to read in your table, read staged staged reading, video conference, read whatever. I think you should give the people who you're asking to read the script at least 24 hours prior to the meeting. What do you think? Oh, truly agree, I mean it's better to sit on it a week. Is that enough time? Oh yeah, well, a week would be even better.
SARAH:Yeah, yeah, It'd be lovely to sit on a week and then spend time with a script, as I say, so that you can really properly have a think, Because, yeah, you know we're very complicated, aren't we the performers behind a mic? And I think some people will snap it every time and just be amazing every time. And some people, you know, you get one read and then they do another one and it gets progressively better, Even though the first one was still very good. You will still perhaps rinse more out of them if you give them more time to play with the script and understand. That's the key thing, is really understanding what you're saying. And I have worked with people, as a producer and director, who just I know, I know they've not spent an ounce of time with that script. Who just I know, I know they've not spent an ounce of time with that script. It's really obvious to me, because there's no feeling, there's no meaning, there's no intention, there's no I don't know warmth behind that character's vocal folds, right.
SARAH:Exactly, yeah, so yeah, so it's about that. So I've loved that. So the style of table read where I've had a chance to really metify my character've built it up. I've been able to also connect with the uh, the writer as I say that, the producer, director and already and just understand the script from their perspective too, as well as mine, right and then you bring that information with all of us knowing, hopefully, as much as possible about our characters before we jump in.
SARAH:That is just a lovely feeling as well, because it sits better. There's less pressure in a way, because also, you're performing it but you're not being critiqued as such. It's for the service of, as I say, the production crew to fathom what works, what might need cutting, because they might have pressures on them to cut. You know, pages, minutes, whatever episodes, yeah. So it's really about just showcasing the best you can from the material you've got. And gosh, there's nothing like it when it runs beautifully, because you know what's coming in the script, sometimes if you're to say if you've spent time with it already and when the actor just brings it, oh, it's nice, just kiss, delicious, yeah, and you're just so appreciating the talent in the room, right and that is another thing.
LINDSAY:But also you have to be open to the fact that things are gonna. Things are gonna fall and it's not because of it's not because of your of the voice acting talent, it's not because of the environment, it's just like it's not because of it's not because of your of the voice acting talent, it's not because of the environment, it's just like it's just not working.
LINDSAY:You know, geez, you wrote a tongue twister. Maybe this isn't the best thing you should have for this moment kind of thing there's. You know. Sometimes, yeah, you have things that you just need to go whoops, look great on the page.
SARAH:But Truly, and I just want to just throw in regards to which is a conversation for another time in a bigger way but also if you're writing for an accent and you've changed the script to kind of reflect that, sometimes that can be harder to read than just letting the actor who knows the accent to just do that themselves. So there's a lot of interesting information with how you write those things on the script too, but that's not for today.
LINDSAY:No, no, no, I mean. Actually, what I was going to say is this is also a good time to include a pronunciation guide. Yeah, for example, like with Yarn Socks Arising, we needed to have everything. There were so many, just so many words. You'd be surprised how many people don't know that Jotunheim is not pronounced Jotunheim. It's that sort of thing. But there's also, sarah, I know you and I have talked about this between ourselves, but there was one time when I was in school, we were doing a scene study class and we had a scene from Lysistrata and I was supposed to be playing Lampito, who was the head of the Spartan women, and whoever had translated this version of Lysistrata decided that the Spartans were all Scottish, so they wrote everything in this English approximation of Brilliant. Yeah, instead of writing two, they'd write T-A-E. Oh right, get to. Yeah, it was like nails on a chalkboard. It was so painful to read. It was like this is what you think of the Scots. Wow, okay, they're human beings. They're not Interesting.
SARAH:But we digress. I don't know, gently, we're coming back, but we digress, we digress, yeah.
LINDSAY:Here's. Another thing is that one of the pros of the table read or the video conferencing read is you get to see and hear the audience reactions and you get a sense in real time of what works and what doesn't in real time of what works and what doesn't. But I also know that if you have enough people in your video conference and this is not to diss Zoom or Ring or BlueJeans or whatever software you're using, this is not a diss on any software. But sometimes if your participants are all over the world as this happens many times with us and you have enough people on the call, you're going to have more lag if everybody has their cameras on. I would have to check with somebody from Zoom about that, as to whether or not it's true, but it just seems like it's been better thing.
SARAH:Yeah, no, there's a lot of variables, isn't there? It's also personal, individual internet speeds and gazillion other things right software that's yeah.
LINDSAY:You have to be very patient with it.
SARAH:That can be frustrating I have hit that once or twice with my own and it's actually as the actor in that and having that happen. It's really awful, because you give, you give the line and then there's nobody replying for like three seconds. You're thinking oh no, did they hear me? And then they give the line and then you've said the line, but they didn't hear you. It's like oh, it's, it's not.
SARAH:Yeah, it's not particularly lovely so there are things to iron out with the online virtual kind of world still, and you know there's quite a few different Riverside squad cast. I mean there finding what works for you.
LINDSAY:I am a big fan of Clean Feed myself because that is just the audio.
SARAH:You don't have video, so you can record in your pajamas. Top tip, it's more fun and, yeah, I think there's a lot to be said for just that connectivity, which is amazing, isn't it? And I think with regards to other places like Discord as well. I've done various things through Discord.
LINDSAY:Yeah, they have a voice option there too.
SARAH:And that's nice and easy once you get set up, I think. Sometimes it decides to not recognize your microphone and things like that. Not just me has had that problem in the past, but a few others. So it's just a few techie issues to iron out, but once you're in're in, right, and that's the exciting thing. Um yes and um yeah, I think as well, with the cons of it. What other things would you suggest?
LINDSAY:uh issues, the work, the work of scheduling and hosting, can make people say I'm never doing this again.
SARAH:Getting the cats yeah, the room getting all of your time, your, your, your time. I hate time zones so much.
LINDSAY:yeah, I know, and unfortunately it's. It's just part of life. You have to deal with it, the time zones you need to use. I'm a big fan of the in-person reading because it's social and it gets your story out in the air.
LINDSAY:And unfortunately, depending on the script, if I have a choice between doing a video conference read or an in-person read, I'm going to say it depends on the script and what you need depends on the script and what you need. Because, just as an example, if I'd rather not deal with the hassle of lag and scheduling with time zones, I'll get non-actors with great reading comprehension skills together and say, okay, we'll order some pizzas, we'll hang out and we'll read this. But if it's the kind of thing where I've lived with this script for a long time and it's like, well, you know, I'd really like to hear how Kareem reads this role, or I'd really like to hear how Sarah reads this role, or I absolutely have to have one of the Scots for this, let's see what Matthew and Robert are doing and then when Matthew says no, I'll get Robert to do it, it, you know that kind of thing. Um, yeah, so you always give matthew right a first refusal because he's really good with scripts.
SARAH:he's awesome but it's just not enough stuff, um yeah I just want to throw in as well with regards to um, the the time zone. So I, when I was doing 1994 podcast um, yeah, I got up at four o'clock in the morning because that was what was working with people from Israel and Brazil and various different American time zones. Right, that was the only time. So there might be people willing to do that from countries either end. Yeah, so I know, for example, at the minute we're trying to sort something out which will be good for the australian folks as well, and that with america is like okay, this is hard.
SARAH:I don't know if we're gonna make it might, but we'll never go, yeah so yeah, I think. So it can be really hard, but it's worth persevering with for for those actors, if you're able to. Um and I just want to throw in as well like it'd be great if you can pay your people for that time but if you can't, at least the very least you can do is to give them some air time with your own social media, ping out links to their works.
LINDSAY:Yes, tell people how they brilliant they were in that table read, which is extra work for you, but you're also asking them to spend time away from their families on a Sunday afternoon, or you're asking them to get up super duper early, or you're asking them to, you know, put off a potential paying freelance gig to do your reading.
LINDSAY:There's all sorts going on with these wonderful voice actors. So this would have been 2004, when I had this conversation with a professional casting director and I said how much should you pay actors for a reading? And he said you don't. But from his perspective, this was the casting director of a professional regional theater, and the staged readings that they did were invited things where people would see them and be like, oh, I love that actor, I want it. Oh, when I find out he's in blah, blah, blah, I'll go see him. Yeah, but people can die from exposure.
SARAH:The big E word yeah, yeah man.
LINDSAY:Yeah, but people can die from exposure. The big E word yeah, man, yeah. But what do you, sarah, if you were going to like ballpark it? How much do you think you should spend per actor if you're going to pay them?
SARAH:Well, that's a massive question really. I think initially, if you're doing it it depends on your budget, is the key thing. I think in an ideal world it would be groovy to have at least 20 pounds an hour, in the indie world at least and that's a starting point. If you can get that, I think that's great as an at least right so, yeah, anything from there, yeah, um, but 150 pounds would be nice.
LINDSAY:No, yeah, oh yeah I think you know it depends, it depends, it depends on so many variables.
SARAH:But yeah, if you can't be a director, I think that'd be super amazing. Um, yeah, and you know we are talking to indie people. We're talking to people. We know we've because we are the american.
LINDSAY:We the american. What, lindsey? Because we are the audio drama writers, independent. We are indie right so we understand your struggle to be independent, because we do too.
SARAH:I've done table reads, I haven't paid my actors and I've done the best I could to ping out about them, yeah, so, yeah, I think there's a lot to be said for time. I just want to throw in as well, let's just like moot then a scenario. So, like, I have my script, so I find mine, and if you have a different one, feel free to do yours. But yes, I have my script, I want my actors, so I'm going to ping out. I'm going to put out an email to people who I love and know and think would be groovy. I would put a thing out on the audio drama hub facebook group. I would ping out on my blue sky, my, my ex and my social media, things are.
SARAH:And then I would, from that interest, I would send them to my email so that they would tell me buy it to my email if they wanted to play, and then from there I collate that information.
SARAH:I send those people a doodle poll saying these are the so many dates I can do, and the times um or I would give them two times only depends on lots of things. So either a range of dates over a couple of weeks or two dates only, and then from there I would cast and sort out who was doing what. I would send out the script, I would ping people information on the characters that I had them in mind for um and or. So there's so many and ors um people.
LINDSAY:I didn't know there's so many.
SARAH:If then, if I didn't know the people and they'd express an interest, I would send them out a character list and uh, ask them what their preferences would be and if they have any experience in those characters, where could I look to see about their prowess? And then basically just start the table read and go on from there and, having known when I'm going to meet, ping out the link, I would probably do it over Zoom, being honest at this juncture, or Clean Feed, depending on how I was feeling, and then yeah, and I'd also write a list of what I want out of it, so I would be able to say that at the beginning. So, this table read. I really like to cut some of it.
SARAH:I need to edit it down by 10 pages. So today I'm looking for areas, and so I would love your feedback, as you're listening, as you're hearing, if there's any things that you think that just aren't working, are necessary, things that perhaps maybe need pickup of pace for the flow of the writing, and so on. So, yeah, so I'd have a list of things that I wanted to achieve in that and we would make time in that table read, to have time to have that discussion too, rather than people just saying, yeah, it's really good cricket.
LINDSAY:Yeah, exactly.
SARAH:Or like no, don't release this. Don't release this, it's awful.
LINDSAY:Or they say I liked it. What do I do with that? But we'll get to feedback in a minute. Yeah, I think if you have a good relationship with some voice actors and you know they're interested in reading your work, even when it's at this really embryonic stage, go for it. But obviously, if you can't get Kareem Cronfley or you know, beth.
LINDSAY:Ayer is super nice but probably very busy. You know, if you can't get the people you had in mind, get the people that you didn't have in mind, because it will show you more about your script than what you had in mind originally and also your buddies, right?
SARAH:you know, there's nothing wrong with at all with getting buddies who you know are great performers and good with reading and giving being honest to you. Maybe that is also a definite option you can explore if the others aren't available to you.
LINDSAY:I don't think you should let anything slow you down, especially when you're having your first read of a script Virgin read and you've never had a script read before. That can be really terrifying and, yeah, it does feel like your first time bungee jumping. But don't let scheduling or whatever get in the way. Just set a date and do it so that you can move forward with this script. I've seen people say things like oh well, I'll run it through the script and have the AI read it.
SARAH:What? Why would you do that?
LINDSAY:Just don't. Well, yeah, and there was also a thing I think Final Draft had a feature where you could have it. Basically, you had a choice of four voices and they all sounded like a speak and spell. They all sounded like you do this better than I do that. Greetings, professor Falcon. That voice Swear words are not acceptable. That voice I can't remember how you do it. Open the potty doors. Yeah, yeah, open the potty doors. But yeah, don't do that, because that's not going to really show you very much about your script, I think. The other thing that I think is a terrible idea, and, uh, sometimes when you just put things up publicly like, hey, everybody of social media in the internet land, here is my live reading please come participate.
SARAH:Dangerous, they'll swoop down on in there and show you their star wars porn.
LINDSAY:Yep, yep, the star wars porn. That a day that will live in infamy was the day that sarah and I were sitting here in a meeting with intelligent, thoughtful adults and then some jerk decided to hack screen sharing and uh start showing his star wars.
SARAH:But yeah, I think that's the thing, isn't it like? That's why I have the bolster of them sending to my email, so I can collate emails, and hopefully that extra step will put lots of people. It might not put up everyone, but you know those.
SARAH:Yeah, you just want it to flow. And can I just throw in too that don't just run it yourself? Yes, you can help it because you'll have a lot to think about. So do find somebody who you know, you know and love to trust, just to help you organize the room, Get a facilitator To furry the questions.
SARAH:If there are any thrown into chat To just make sure you're okay, yes, and you know, perhaps they're in the room with you, yes, or they're on the virtual call as well and, just as a like solidarity system, a place to go if you suddenly find yourself a little overwhelmed by any questions or moments, facilitate.
LINDSAY:Have them do the talking, have them introduce everybody and give them all hosting permissions so that if they have to kick somebody out, they can, or if they have to admit someone who's running a bit late, you want them to have all the hosting permissions so they can take care of business. Sarah, about timing, your what's your formula? For how long? It should last?
SARAH:about six no, I think the key thing with regards to timing is to just think, actually, if you've got a six episode season of things, you're obviously not going to table read every single one of those, right? Um, and you know, in one sitting you either need to decide okay, so this table isn't just gonna be one thing and like everything's done. It's gonna be over a series of times, so that there's time to digest and you're not going to tire yourself, your head and your actors too.
SARAH:So, yeah, I think there's so many variables so if you've got a, longer script and you do want to hear everything, then then by all means do that, but do that over a period of weeks, so it's going to last a little bit longer, or over a period of days, depending on the class and so on.
SARAH:But if you think I just want to hear certain slices or perhaps things that I need to hone that aren't working, then you could also do that. So, yeah, I think timing-wise, there's uh, the general rule isn't there with um, with one and a half times the pages is the amount of time it takes. So every page is about what? One and a half minutes, um, generally ish, kind of depending on many things, but that's generally an ish. So maybe have a look at that yourself. Read your page, read a few pages in your head with a timer on, just check. Okay, how long is this taking? Because there might be copious amount of sound to design things in there. There might be other things that actors are doing that will take up the time that's not spoken. So, yeah, have a little play, I think. Yeah, people do get tired. I get tired too.
LINDSAY:Yeah, well, especially your voice, and if you're doing, demanding scripts and actors like you know if you've got a bunch of pirates running around the place. We're all doing like that, then that's gonna hurt their voice after a while so yeah I've got to play with them yeah, just making sure
SARAH:there's plenty of water breaks. You're reminding everyone to hydrate, hydrate, hydrate, and that's also that there is time for proper toilet breaks, getting more water. And also, just head away from a screen, right? Because if you're doing things online, you're probably looking at the screen or you know, you might have your paper readers. There's a lot of people who still will not let go of the paper scripts. I love writing on paper scripts. Yes, they are good. But the fact that I think when we were doing the Amelia project, me and Fiona in the studio a good few years ago, and I had the paper and I just I didn't know where to put it I hadn't had a lot of practice of doing that in a live situation. I'd normally done it myself at home. So, yes, things like that, just those paper rustles, if you're going to be recording things as well.
SARAH:I just found the hassle factor too much, so I am an iPad bint.
LINDSAY:I love the iPad.
SARAH:I'm an iPad bint. I'm an IPB.
LINDSAY:I am an iPad bint that's going on the next AdWords t-shirt. I'm an iPad Pint that's going on the next AdWords t-shirt. I'm an iPad Pint Because you can annotate to your heart's content.
SARAH:I just scroll all over it different colors, different pens. I can rub it out if I want to. I have complete freedom to doodle pictures of the actors in the margins. So yeah, I have lots of fun with that. So yeah, I think that's. The other thing is deciding how you're going to distribute the script in this time thing. Is everybody going to have to read your own scrolling from a screen? I've had that happen before. That was dictated for us a time away, which you know it kind of works. But I don't know. There's an art to reading a script, to reading a script, and sometimes you're sort of reading a bit ahead to prepare yourself for the next emotion you might need. Or or perhaps there's a build to something that your character needs to be doing something yeah angsty.
SARAH:That needs to sound in your voice before you get that.
LINDSAY:Things like that who was that lovely? Oh gosh, emily from emily ink pen. We were just Emily Inkpen. Yes, yes, emily Inkpen, emily Inkpen. Oh, I thought of a theme tune, emily Inkpen. There we go, so Glorious. That was fun, I think she said I always work in Google Docs because it's easier to share and yes, excellent point, you need to be able to say to to people. Okay, just refresh your screen because lindsay just made a change or whatever.
SARAH:So you need the most shareable version of your script when you're coming into that, that stage or whatever your stage table, virtual, whatever reading so yes so, yeah, so, timing wise, I think, um, if you go over two hours for something, that's kind of getting into tough, tough time there I think you're evil.
LINDSAY:I I don't think you should make people participate for more than two hours probably go groovy right, because then you've got, perhaps you know three to four episodes of.
SARAH:You've given it a good bash and also time for feedback, which I think is key.
LINDSAY:So, Lindsay, I was going to say will you tell?
SARAH:us how you solicit yeah.
LINDSAY:So my friend Carolyn West, who is a playwright and a novelist I'm paraphrasing because she said this in my presence a bunch of times, but I can't remember the exact wording With the first draft a writer just needs praise and encouragement to keep going. You're just saying to them you know what? The story's worth it, you're worth it, keep going, Because at that point you're going to hear the problems with the script are going to stick out enough that you're fully aware of what's wrong, and what you need at that point is going to be good job. Yeah, you did it, you finished it. Now keep going. Yeah, I actually had someone say to me well, you know, you put it in a drawer and you write the next thing, and I was like you want a what, what? I was like thank you so much for all of your confidence in me.
SARAH:Oh yeah, um, with this drawer light, so it can't have anything in it. That's it. Everyone now go take that drawer that things go in and throw it. Give it to charity, give it to somebody who might need a drawer for other things, other than scripts, to pile up.
LINDSAY:I do admit your trunk scripts are pretty, are good to use because someday there's going to come a day that somebody is going to say to you like hey, we need a 20 minute horror thing, what have you got? And you're like oh, I got this.
SARAH:So, yeah, maybe, Okay, okay, don't get rid of the drawer, then I suppose I don't know.
LINDSAY:Sometimes you need to just stuff that stuff somewhere. You got to have your extras. But yeah, with the second draft, you need to know what's confusing, what's memorable, what stands out the most. This is where you probably have questions about specific moments or elements and, in my opinion, after your second or third draft, you're either gilding the lily or you're plumping the pillows in the coffin, Like whether you plan to self-produce it or somebody plans to produce it, or whatever. After your third draft, I think you're kind of or after your third reading, you're kind of going it's like it's time to quit. Quit goofing around and either move on to a new script, Get it done or you know script or start thinking about your crowdfunding campaign. Speaking of crowdfunding campaigns, you may want to have a live reading of a finished script. Nothing is ever finished. That's just me.
LINDSAY:A finished script for a fundraiser or to gauge interest before investing more effort, time, money etc into the story, that's a different thing. Um, that's not really what we're talking about here. Um, when people say to you, like sarah and I were just saying earlier, like sarah, give me some examples of some great meaningless feedback, it's really good, yeah, it's really good, great job, I really liked it. I really liked it. The characters were nice. Yeah they. Yeah, it was fun, yeah, it was. Uh, somebody said to me once I and this was like a guy probably in his 60s with a long career and he just goes.
LINDSAY:I hated it I hated it, I hated it and I was like wow, because hate is a strong word, sir.
SARAH:That's a big word for a gentleman to say to a lady like you, Exactly, Exactly.
LINDSAY:I had to flap my fan at him. Good Lord, Did anyone swoon? I swooned, Actually, you know what it was. I looked at him and I'm like I'm going to make you regret. I was like I'm going to. I actually, to be honest, I looked at him and I was like and you are not my audience niche, you know it wasn't. I was like, okay, this play is not for you. I will remember not to write fun things with strong female leads for you. Yeah, so the reason that these things are inadequate methods of feedback is because they don't give you an idea of what to do.
SARAH:Can I give you some evidence of some feedback I got. That was really good, so I've written a script called the Milkman and the Postie. Yes, it's basically a vehicle for me and Kareem to work together. I love it Working with him. We have the best fun. Essentially it's about uh, milkman and a postie who's they've been in the same kind of street doing the same rounds and only finally wait for the americans. What's a postie?
SARAH:a postie is a person who goes to deliver letters to there we go and the milkman is not really around anymore, but back in the day they used to deliver milk to your doorstep too. I remember having milk delivered in the morning, milk and yogurts and the birds would peck the silver fall at the top. So essentially, yes. So basically, the premise is it's a romantic story where they, finally their rounds, start to connect and they start to connect.
SARAH:It's just a nice fun little, light-hearted, fun, romantic thing. I thought it was just a nice fun little, light-hearted, fun, romantic thing. So here, the first thing I got this is from the wonderful Sivan Raz, who basically is a wonderful voice actor but also works as a director as well on various projects, and maybe we can pop a link to Sivan on our show notes so you can employ her. So he says, I think at the very beginning.
SARAH:The type of the relationship between the two is a bit unclear. Are they rivals, old friends, strangers? Something with the conversation about the old woman doesn't really clarify the relationship fast enough and I felt confused for a while there until they actually said it was their first ever conversation. I think even a simple oh so you know the old lady as well kind of line would have solved this confusion for me. So they're giving just ways in to think OK, so I need to make that bit clearer. For another section, she said I don't think any more stakes are needed for a short piece. This is absolutely perfect. I love reading and listening to things and just feeling happy and warm and fuzzy, just like this is perfect. So that was really like oh good, I'm creating something warm and fuzzy yes, which was one of the intentions behind creating yes. So yeah, there are some things in translation.
LINDSAY:I remember when I read it I thought how wonderful is this? That they're both trying to solve a problem? Yes, over the course of it, they were both trying to solve a problem, because there was something that I read that Jane Austen said once that the best way for people to fall in love is through solving a problem together, or working together to solve a problem. And yeah, but let me give you an example of actionable feedback that's negative would be something like oh gosh. See, the problem is, every single time you get negative feedback, you tend to sort of let it go. You either act on it or you let it go. Okay, here's a good one. Somebody said to me once I see that you're writing this with a specific actor in mind. That's great, but don't try to get that actor, because if they're busy, it eliminates the possibilities that this script could have with a different actor. So, in any case, I am a big fan of something called the Liz Lerman critical response process, but what I want to talk about first is sometimes you have to consider the source with the feedback that you get. Like just as an example, I think I've told this story before.
LINDSAY:I can't remember. I once had a reading of a scene from a play that I wrote that took place in a Jewish cemetery in the summer of 1967. And after the reading was over, a guy came up to me and told me just absolutely vehemently how dare you have a scene with a Jewish character in July of 1967 and not mention the Six-Day Israeli War? And I was like what? They didn't go over this in American history when I was in high school. So that was kind of fun. But the thing is that over time I was like, oh God, I got to get the Israeli war in here. And then I was like, do I really? And after a while I was like, no, I don't, that's his agenda, that's his priority. One opinion is really in a yes, yes of others of many opinions.
LINDSAY:Exactly that was his thing. I've heard people say this would be a great podcast if it wasn't done by somebody with a scottish accent or something horrible like that, and I'm just like someone said that about the scottish podcast because that would be funny. Yes, yeah it's. They just say things like you know, I can't do this guy's great, but I can't understand a word he's saying and it's like oh gee, which one of us has the problem? So yeah, um, yeah, that's, you know.
SARAH:Yeah, I think that is it not to take things to heart too, and I guess does that what liz lehrman talks about she talks about um feedback not being personal.
LINDSAY:Yeah, it doesn't have to do with the person, it has to do with the work. Nothing you've done, so um. Yeah, it's um. I also find that sometimes in q a sessions there are people who are there really just to hear themselves talk, like they really just want to prove what a great artist they are by showing up at your reading.
SARAH:Oh boy, did you hear his arms getting an earring there? Oh God.
LINDSAY:Yeah, yeah. So anyway, the Liz Lerman critical response process. This is my favorite method of soliciting or getting feedback. We will pop a link in the show notes to the official website. There are three roles the facilitator, the artist and the respondent. The facilitator runs the feedback session, makes sure everybody who raises their hand gets called on and that the artist has adequate opportunity to ask questions, have them answered and take notes. They may be needed to break up fights or ensure that the audience stays out of value-based statement territory or out of statements that are like you are such a good writer and this play really shows it is like, not important right now. As they say on the website, the Liz Lerman critical response process. The facilitator initiates each step, keeps the process on track and works to help the artist and responders use the process to frame useful questions and responses beautifully put. Yes, and that's like sarah. Yeah, like sarah, and I said earlier, you need somebody who's like there, they're on your side, they have hosting commissions like viewing it as well.
SARAH:You know this. They can sit back from being in the passion, the desires and the needs of the piece they are able to like. Help you to achieve all those things. Yeah, groovy.
LINDSAY:Yeah, they've got one eye on the clock, they know what's going on, so on and so forth. Yeah, they've got the good snacks All good, yes, yeah, the artist or maker is the person who the writer in our case I don't think they should facilitate, because it's hard to take notes while facilitating or in case responders get weird this is the person who offers a work in progress for review and feels prepared to question that work in a dialogue with other people. So they make. A good point is that sometimes you're not ready to have your work questioned yet.
SARAH:It's a bit raw still.
LINDSAY:Yeah, and I've met people who one woman said we were all sitting here basically saying this was confusing, this was confusing. And she said, well, you're obviously not the audience that I want to work with. And it was sort of like oh thanks, lady. So yeah, it can be hard, yeah, yeah. And the respondents are the audience and the participants in your reading. They engage in dialogue with the artist, with a commitment to the artist's intent to make excellent work Always.
SARAH:Just want to give your best so that this person can make the best thing.
LINDSAY:Yeah, so what they're going to do. The steps of feedback are the facilitator is going to ask for statements of meaning. So they ask the respondents what's most meaningful or memorable about the work. And this is a time for statements, it's not a time for questions. That's hard, because your brain will naturally go to question land. Instead of saying I thought the scene on the swing set was really important to me, you're going to start saying I wondered why this was set on a swing set.
SARAH:So I've got some here. I really love the humor and the character personalities. It's captivating to read. I think it comes through very well in the dialogue, which is actually what makes you want them to spend more time talking about each subject. So, yeah, having a great time reading this into their talk, yes, that is a great statement of meaning.
LINDSAY:That is perfect, yeah, good, yes. The next step is the artist as questioner. Step the facilitator asks the artist to ask the respondents questions about specific elements of the work. Now, this isn't what did you think or did you like?
SARAH:it or was it funny? Make me feel happy about my work. It's not, that is it.
LINDSAY:Yeah, unfortunately it's not that, it's. How did you feel about the overlapping, you know? How did you feel about the swing set? Yeah, it's. How did you feel about the overlapping, you know? How did you feel about the swing set? Yeah, or you know. Or how did you feel about the overlapping dialogue in scene seven? Yeah, or something about those lines, it's, you know.
SARAH:Delving that bit deeper.
LINDSAY:Yes, yeah. Then there's neutral questions, and also, if you don't have any questions, that's okay Because, or if you can't think of what to ask, that's okay Because you can skip that and go on to this section, which is neutral questions. At this point, the respondents can ask the artist questions about the work. These questions don't have opinion or value in them. For example, instead of saying why did you write another spaceship audio drama when there are already 7 million spaceship audio, dramas. There's room for more man. Yeah well, I don't know about that.
SARAH:Come on, Space Pirates is going to happen some point. I'm sorry, it's going to happen.
LINDSAY:Space Pirates has probably already happened. We just don't know about it. That's our fault. Some universe somewhere, some universe somewhere? Yeah, the better way to say that is what made you choose to set this story in outer space, as opposed to a Renaissance fair or a monkey breeding lab or whatever. Okay, but I mean, like, my question about Romeo and Juliet was always why didn't Romeo and Juliet just run away together? Yeah, that's a reasonable question, as opposed to saying you made these characters really dumb, but they're only 14.
LINDSAY:Yeah, or why did you make these characters so dumb? Okay yeah, the purpose of this section is not for the artist to answer for their sins or explain the script. It's for them to be aware of what elements are confusing or distracting and what elements take the audience out of the experience. And you do not have to answer those questions.
SARAH:Yeah, just maybe let them soak in so they fuel your script for the next brilliant draft, right?
LINDSAY:Write them down, sure, but you know, yeah, and then here's the tricky part, which often this can be left out. Respondents can say this is the opinion section, opinions, opinions. So your respondents can say I have an opinion about a particular element of the story, would you like to hear it? And the artist can choose to hear that opinion or not you know send it to my email and I might open it.
SARAH:Put the title of this and maybe I'll have a look.
LINDSAY:Yes, when I'm ready yeah, I think a good idea is to have a google form available I do love a google form, lindsey, with a short link so you can ask questions and let them tell you whatever. So then you don't have to read it if you don't want to. Yes, I think that's a great idea. Yeah, I'm not saying don't take feedback, but sometimes feedback is is weird how do you handle it, lindsey?
SARAH:just go and go. Oh, my work is rubbish. Nobody, nobody likes it and I'm not gonna write anymore, ever again uh, do not ever let that happen to you.
LINDSAY:What I do, honestly, what I've done sometimes, is I've sat there nodding, smiling and writing in my notebook like so andand-so doesn't get it okay, or you know, do you just doodle a little bit? Looks like you're writing, it's great, you know. Or you can put down like so-and-so gets it, so-and-so doesn't get it, so-and-so asked blah, blah, blah. Um, you know. Or they said that their opinion was xyz.
SARAH:Yes, you know you can just write them down. You've just done a big knob on your page, haven't you? That's what you've really done.
LINDSAY:Yes, a great big doorknob Right, sarah. Yes, that's what I meant. Cool, yes. So when people tell you that they like it or it's good, say thank you, but that doesn't give you anything to take action with. Yeah, and anything that has a value judgment or has to do with you, the person or them, the person just ignore it. There's a difference between saying, like, scene six felt long or I got bored during scene six, yeah, yeah, yeah. One of the questions I always ask is was there any moment where you got distracted or started thinking about something else other than what was happening in the story? That's one of the questions I always ask. That way, I can avoid hearing people say I got bored. Rewriting with feedback is what you're going to do.
SARAH:Actually, after you're reading, I highly recommend that you take a break, because you are going to feel like you just donated at least one pint of blood and you're so many emotions within seconds, I think. When an actor is killing it and the words are working, you go, this is working and you're really excited. Then maybe when you hear another bit, you think, oh no, that's jarring, that's not moving the plot and you get cross with yourself.
SARAH:Why is this even in here? Why have I left it in? And you kind of have this. Well, I do this inner dialogue that's going on. So, yes, a break is very.
LINDSAY:It's an emotional roller coaster.
SARAH:You just need to.
LINDSAY:Yeah, you know. Sure, go out for a pint with your friends afterwards. Celebrate, celebrate your win. Yes, celebrate, oh yes, no matter how bad it is. Oh man, what if it goes? Even if it goes badly? Okay, listen, prepare yourself for the possibility that it may go badly, but celebrate the fact that you put it out there. That's a big deal.
SARAH:Oh man, we need a hashtag for that. Hashtag celebrate the win, and whenever you send that to us, we'll know. We'll know, from now from this moment on, people who are listening. If you tag us in hashtag celebrate the win, we'll know that you finished a table read and you have survived. Celebrate the win. We'll know that you finished a table read and you have survived, and you have perfected the art of your writing process.
LINDSAY:Yeah, or at least learned a few things along the way I'm making a t-shirt that says I survived a table read of my script. Yes, and all I got was this stupid t-shirt do it.
SARAH:We've got a lot. We need to start a merch store.
LINDSAY:Yes, yes, we do, oh we do, we do actually have a. By the time people hear this, we'll have a merch store but, no, we do have a merch store and I will link to it. Um, but what you? You want to copy down your notes and eliminate the unhelpful stuff you know. Reread your, your feedback, reread your script with that feedback in mind and then take a break for a few days.
SARAH:Put them in that drawer that you nearly sent to charity.
LINDSAY:Yeah, just put them away for a little bit. Sometimes you may find typos that you didn't know you had. Oh dear my favorite one, my favorite one ever. This script went all the way to the rehearsal stage and then in the first day of rehearsal, somebody had said something about gerbils the the nazi, and his name is spelled g-o-e-b-b-e-l-s. But autocorrect stepped in and changed it to gerbils.
SARAH:Okay, yeah, that's a typo you want to fix I don't know kind of, maybe you should leave it, I don't know.
LINDSAY:I mean, on the other hand, that's how it's pronounced. But okay, um, take a break for a few days, then reread your script in the notes and then, in my opinion, oh, are you ready, brace yourselves, and I recently learned. Yep, I recently learned. This is also Taika Waititi's process, and he gets paid a lot more than I do. You re-read it, you set it aside and then you re-write it from memory. The good stuff will rise to the top and the bad stuff will just slide down the drain.
SARAH:I've had to do that once or twice for various reasons. Yeah, it is, I don't know I like doing that, but also it's like because you've got ridden this already and you think maybe it was better before. But actually, yeah, it's a really interesting process to do. So if you haven't tried that already, jump in, get that, rewrite kicking in now and see what you learn about the stuff your brain really wants to keep your beautiful, nurtured, wonderful brain, creative legends, you Amazing.
LINDSAY:Now, that being said, I was for various reasons. I was talking about this process with a therapist who specializes in ADHD. Not that I know anybody with ADHD Wow, mate, it's a few years, you know. Wait, god, jeff. Not that I know anybody with adhd, it's a few, you know way. And she said, if you do that, you're setting yourself up because you're only going to remember a fraction of you know. Your memory's not. Or she said a person who has adhd doesn't have a strong enough memory to do that. And I said please stop, I'm just gonna do what I'm gonna do, but yeah, you know, your mileage may vary.
SARAH:Yeah, indeed, your mileage may vary. So, yes, you can cross, pollinate fine. Yes, yeah, do whatever you want to do.
LINDSAY:Oh, the other thing too, that I also think about rewrites. When you rename your files, or when you name your files, I always keep an extra backup copy. But instead of saying draft one, draft two, draft three, put a date on it instead. That's so helpful, so that you don't feel like oh my God, I've rewritten 47 drafts. Just put a date on it, because that way you're not sitting here going final dot, final dot, final dot, pdf, or whatever it is. Final, final, no, really final this time.
SARAH:No, this one is it Definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely positively this one.
LINDSAY:Yeah, but if you put a date on it, then whatever you're using to archive your drafts has an easier time putting it in order yeah, okay.
SARAH:What do you think, Sarah? I think about everything in the world or table reads in general?
LINDSAY:What did we miss?
SARAH:Well, we missed the joy... the whole point of it is for also your development of joy about your work and to celebrate you've finished something that people can read and that is immense, that is fireworks forever. That is you are amazing. You've done something with your brain and your thinking and your body and your life and that's great. So feel proud of yourself. People Celebrate the win.
LINDSAY:Hashtag celebrate. Enjoy your dopamine buzz.
SARAH:You know, mate, the pursuit of that is that's just life, isn't it? Isn't it? Yes?
LINDSAY:Isn't it?
SARAH:Yes, yes, and a good friend to share the output of your work with. But, yeah, yes, I think that's the thing. That is true. Celebrate the, the brilliance that you finished up, because I don't know about you, but I've probably got 555 unfinished projects at the moment and there's a lot to be said.
LINDSAY:Actually, here's a whole seeing things through to completion. Again, I don't remember if I told this story or not. Once upon a time, when I was in grad school, I was at a point where I had this script. I had a deadline. I had to do a rewrite by the next day, by the next morning, because I wasn't going to have time to work on it anymore. And it was really like, do it now or don't do it at all. And I really did not want to go into class saying, yeah, I just didn't do it.
LINDSAY:But I hated this play at this point. I just hated it. I loathed it and I thought you are not going to class tomorrow with nothing. You will find a way to make the script better. And finally, what I did was I fixated on a character who was not the main character and rewrote the scene from her point of view as if she were the main character. It was the best. It was like you might as well have handed me a bowl of ice cream. It was like as if I were a junkie, tired out, old beater car and somebody suddenly loaded up my gas tank with a crumb.
LINDSAY:Yes, it was, and it made me see the whole play in a completely different way and it gave me this new burst of energy. So it's like and getting all the way through to the end and being able to say I'm done. I've never done a damn thing with that script, you know why? Because it wasn't very good, but well, you know you're not going to have a hit all the time. And seeing, well, you know you're not going to have a hit all the time, and that you know. But seeing things through to completion is something that feels great, and when you lose enthusiasm for a project, that's a killer. Yeah, so you gotta find some way to turn it around and write it from a different angle, and that is a good thing well, this is it perspectives and points of view.
SARAH:Well, we'd love to hear your points of view. Please send them, I would love to hear your writersadvit at gmailcom if you found today useful, if you want to tell us anything about your table read if there's things we missed and you think well, why didn't you talk about this? You crazy loons? Uh, we'd love to hear from you. So writersadvit at gmailcom and do ping into our discord. We'd love to see you and to talk about the episodes as we release them.
LINDSAY:You will find the link in the show notes.
SARAH:Just have a chat about writing and that innit. It's good fun. We love it.
LINDSAY:Yes, it's very good fun. Happy writing, sarah and I do it all the time.
SARAH:We're doing it now. Happy writing. My brain is thinking I've been writing whilst I'm talking to you and just so much percolation that's going on all over the place. No mess, so much percolation. Everyone should say that word now after three. One, two, three Percolation.
LINDSAY:Percolation or perculation, percolation, percolation, I don't know. All right, thank you everybody. Thank you for listening. Yes, thank you for listening, thank you, thank you. Thank you. We will speak to you again soon and we look forward to hearing from you and happy writing, happy writing. Okay, go get them. Tigers, AvantI!. Okay, bye, bye, bye.
LINDSAY:MUSIC
LINDSAY:6630 Productions.
