ADWIT: The Audio Drama Writers' Independent Toolkit
Want there to be more good audio drama? Lindsay and Sarah do. Each episode, they'll discuss an aspect of audio drama, examples from current audio drama podcasts, and writing exercises so writers can play along. Join Sarah Golding and Lindsay Harris Friel on a voyage of discovery on the seas of audio drama podcasts.
ADWIT: The Audio Drama Writers' Independent Toolkit
Tying Up Loose Ends: Short Topics For Your Audio Drama Writing Practice
Click here to tell us what you think!
Here are all the short yet important topics that don't justify their own episode, yet make a difference for writers. Ever wondered what truly stops creative writers from finishing their audio dramas? It's the invisible barriers we construct for ourselves. For our season finale, we tackle those stubborn obstacles head-on, offering practical solutions to help you move your scripts from perpetual development into production.
Money concerns often top the list of excuses, but we challenge the notion that compelling audio drama requires significant funding. Some of the most gripping stories focus on intimate human relationships rather than elaborate productions. We explore how to craft scripts that match your available resources while maintaining creative integrity.
Perhaps the most insidious barrier is our emotional attachment to our work. We lovingly but firmly remind you that "your script is not a baby"—treating it as precious and untouchable prevents necessary growth and revision. Through personal stories of creative "disasters" that ultimately strengthened our craft, we demonstrate why finishing projects and embracing feedback matters more than perfection.
We also dive into practical advice for crafting podcast descriptions that entice listeners, approaching producers with your work, and finding community members who will hold you accountable. The audio drama world is filled with creators eager to collaborate—you simply need to connect with them.
Remember: the biggest obstacles to creating great audio drama exist primarily in your mind, and we're here to help you overcome them.
Get the scoop on audio drama news, opportunities, creative resources and more with The Fiction Podcast Weekly newsletter. For more info, visit The Podcast Host's Fiction Podcast Weekly.
Want to get in touch? You can send us a text message with the link at the top, email us at writersadwit@gmail.com, join our Discord server, or visit our website at adwit.org.
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Sarah and Lindsay
Hello everyone, hello gorgeous, how are you? Sarah? Do that again. It sounds really good, does it? It was kind of like it was like part Austin Powers, but it wasn't like too icky. It was genuinely appreciative, because I really love our audience. I do really love our audience too. Hello gorgeous, hello you, beautiful, brilliant genius, you are Thank you. Yes, Thank you for joining us for another exciting episode of AdWords, the audio drama writers independent toolkit.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's a finale season. Yes, I believe this.
Speaker 1:Is it the big finale thing, which is when we yes, and this is where we are doing our grab bag of extras.
Speaker 2:They're sort of topics that weren't big enough for their own episode, but they're just right, I just want to munch on them all because they're all important in their own groovy little way, right.
Speaker 1:Yes, and they're imaginary obstacles, okay, they are tangible, but you can fight your way through kids, you can I can't tell you how many people I've seen who stay in that state of like never quite finishing a script, never attempting a self-production, never getting their friends together to order pizza and read it together. But they also will pay out the nose for writing workshops and this workshop and that workshop, and finding your confidence and your beautiful, creative nonsense, just make it.
Speaker 1:Just get in there and fail and enjoy failing if you have to Doing it all the time Doing it all the time, yep, doing it all the time, careful I got that failure. I got that failure. Oh Sarah, did I ever tell you the story about my first big like? Here is my play in front of people. I don't know.
Speaker 2:No, Tell us, Sit quietly by the fire and tell us the story.
Speaker 1:Lindsay so I participated in 24-hour plays at the Name redacted on advice of counsel In Philadelphia Amazing, which was a semi-abandoned theater space that was the second floor of a People know it was being used allowed in there at the time.
Speaker 2:No, sorry, I digress. Anyway, you were saying so I was saying.
Speaker 1:So we used to do these 24-hour plays. We would get together on Friday night, have a discussion about what we were going to do and break into groups and talk about what we were going to do the next day, and then the writers would go home and stay up all night writing a script, hand it off the next morning to the director and the actors, and then they would spend the whole day rehearsing and put it together, and then there would be a performance at eight o'clock the following night and we would literally go downstairs and walk out in the street and walk up to people and say to them hey, for 10 bucks you can go see live theater right now. And they'd be like, okay, okay, I got nothing else to do.
Speaker 2:They didn't hit you or anything.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, it was great. It was a wonderful experience and the one that I wrote. I made the mistake of writing probably a three page monologue for this poor girl, this lovely young woman. Basically, I set her the task of saying, okay, yeah, I'm going to memorize a three page script. Don't ever do this. It's a horrible thing to do and I don't know why. We both just want, we all just said, okay, we can do this. And the poor girl, of course, as soon as you know, as soon as she got rolling, she went up on her lines. She didn't know what to do. She didn't know what to do. She finally figured out what the last line was and she got up and exited. And I went backstage and she was sobbing and I just put my arms around her and I said nobody died, nobody got hurt. These things happened, we all survived. And ever since then, now I'm basically like what do you want me to do? I'll do it. Like nothing can hurt me. I feel bulletproof because of that first big explosion.
Speaker 2:Okay, so we need things to go slightly awry to make everything else supreme.
Speaker 1:Let things go crazy. But today we're going to talk about some of the big obstacles that tend to keep people from moving forward. Come on. We're going to talk about writing versus money. We're going to talk about PR, because I think people worry a lot about what other people think of you or your work and how. Your script is not a baby or accountability, it's not a wickle baby, though no. I'd rather, sarah, I'd rather have a real baby, and you know how I feel about stop, stop stinky little writing writing versus money.
Speaker 2:Let's go there, ding, ding round one. Okay, we live. Where do we live? We live in a capitalist society full of bastards who are just greedy for, for finance and and don't even think about the soul at the heart of the creativity. Do they do they? No, and I don't think about it. Patri at the heart of the creativity Do they Do they? No, they don't think about it. Patriarchy I know there's plenty of men who are blooming gorgeous, but the world I mean. But I digress. But yes, money not. A lot of beautiful creatives are fortunate to have very much right. We're rich in ideas, we're rich in creativity and perhaps people to collaborate with, but the money is hard.
Speaker 1:Well, it's also very easy to say I can't bring this script to life because it's too expensive. Yeah, right, and the reason it's easy to say that is because there's no judgment in that. It's the first thing you could say like oh, how come you haven't produced this? Oh, it's so expensive. Do you know how much it costs to make an audio drama? And it's easy to say it's too expensive.
Speaker 2:That's a good question, that whole how much does audio drama cost? Right, Because I know there was a really super article a good few years ago now, but it's still truly relevant by the folks of um, by the multitude folks, and yeah, I just think that um now with my producer hat on, and working with a variety of budgets. People who do stuff really well, are expensive and you want to pay them correctly. Yes, and there's a different tier system, isn't there really?
Speaker 3:and I think oh, this is.
Speaker 2:This is something that's not on our list to discuss, lindsay, but that whole kind of no, that's a whole different thing. It's like fringe audio versus professional companies.
Speaker 1:Let's call it independent. Let's call it independent because I mean it doesn't. If Kate Winslet woke up tomorrow morning and said only using the money that's currently in my bank account and whatever I can find between the couch cushions, I'm going to start a production company and produce podcasts and I'm not going to ask for any venture capital, anything like that, she'd probably be as hard pressed as you and I are Right, possibly. I mean she'd probably be as hard-pressed as you and I are.
Speaker 2:Right, possibly, I mean even though she probably. Or be able to do one really good thing. You know what a good show With some groovy people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the point is, this isn't a how-to-produce podcast. This is a how-to-write podcast, and some scripts are less expensive to produce than others.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean within that, yeah, you've obviously got the key costs or how many actors. You're good in there and potentially you can work with producers to say, well, we could double cast these characters because they can do different types or tones or ages and they can still sound different. Um, yes, but yeah, essentially those are your core costs, because the amount of crew is possibly going to remain the same for a majority of pieces depends true, I have heard some shows like uh, I believe it was the Hallway.
Speaker 1:Actually it's Hallway to Nowhere by Leslie Gideon. Yes, Super legend.
Speaker 1:That podcast absolutely grabbed me by the viscera and I had to listen to all of it. Yeah, all at once, very long dog walk. It was great, super. But I believe it's got her voice, one other voice artist and then the other voices are sort of like descriptor, descript voices or something 11 Labs Voices, whatever it's called. Yeah, that one, it's brilliant, and I don't know what her budget was. Frankly, it's none of my business. But it's a great example of a show that can be done on a minimal budget.
Speaker 2:I've got to say, though always use actors, Always use actors Always use actors Always. As an actor. I just feel like you always should. I can't help it, I don't care. I'm going to say it until I read my last or second book. Use the highest degree of professionalism that you can afford.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I highly. I don't think you should hire. I don't think you should say to your best friend, hey, come over and do my audio drama in exchange for beer and hugs, but it's write the show that you can afford to make and hire good people that. That being said, one of the things I also feel very strongly about is that, let's say, you have a big idea that you feel like is going to take thousands of people to bring to life. If you have that, if you take a big idea and show how it affects small, intimate relationships like a mother-daughter or coworkers or whatever, when the personal is political. So if you wanted to make a show about climate change, global climate change, and then you two co-workers working in a place that just gets hotter and hotter and hotter, you can do that method right Lindsay, right now.
Speaker 1:This week I can, yes, this week I can. Hopefully, by the time people hear this, the Great American heat wave will have ended. But yeah, we're just getting boiled like frogs.
Speaker 2:But that's it. The minutiae of real life is fascinating and I don't feel there are enough. The minutiae of everyday life.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's wonderful, sarah. I'm so glad you said that. Thank you, it came from my brain and everything it came from my brain and everything. I love you. So yeah, it's.
Speaker 1:The point is, is that, like, sometimes there's just things that we had, oh gosh, we had a situation recently where someone at a business that we frequent got fired for saying a phrase that was horrible, that you shouldn't say in the workplace, and it hurt another employee, and Vince and I were talking about it amongst ourselves and then, about a week later, my brother, ted, who repeats everything I say, told his behavior manager about what he overheard. Overheard it, and by the time I went through the whisper down the lane thing, it sounded even worse and we were almost in trouble for a minute and I had to explain. No, vince and I were having a private conversation about something that shouldn't have happened and we were not in the same room with Ted. Ted chose to repeat it and the trouble all boiled down.
Speaker 1:But you can take these things and, as you said, the minutia of everyday life, the things that happen especially in relationships where people have known each other for a very, very long time and they depend on each other, and that raises the stakes. So a two-person drama is beautiful. A three-person drama is even more exciting because then you get those triangles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that are, I mean there's so much, so much rich tapestry of life isn't there in just those, those mini relationships. And I've been thinking lately as well about various changes in my life and um and how things can change very quickly from feeling very safe and wonderful place to just somewhere alien and scary and like I don't know what's happening, and that to capture moments like that, I think you know, are really quite intriguing to listen to.
Speaker 2:So we need more. We need more real life dramas. I was trying to recommend some uh pieces to to someone even today and they were asking about thrillers and dramas based on real life and in the indie world that's really difficult well, there's arden.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh no, you mean based on real, real life, okay see some things. Well, you know, as in like they're based on real life, like just drama.
Speaker 2:You know, drama in the, in the understanding of the word drama set in this plane in this world, not necessarily this time, it could be any era. But yeah, I'm hard pressed to think of many.
Speaker 1:Do you want to hear an unpopular opinion that I have? Open seas unpopular opinion Unpopular.
Speaker 2:Come on then Bring it, we're ready. Brace yourselves. People I'm squatting. Go on then Bring it, we're ready Brace yourselves, people.
Speaker 1:I believe what defines a drama as opposed to other kinds of storytelling is a drama is when you basically put opposing forces in a enclosed environment and don't let them out until somebody you know. Basically two cockroaches enter, one cockroach leaves.
Speaker 2:I was imagining cheese and grapes in a plastic Tupperware box, but yeah, cockroaches are better.
Speaker 1:You were thinking what's the difference between the grapes and cheese? Okay, never mind.
Speaker 3:But basically the idea is like you.
Speaker 1:Take something like who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf. They might as well be in a submarine in that story. I mean they're, and nobody is leaving until the situation is resolved Right. So that's my definition of drama, but your mileage may vary. No, I love that, sarah. What were we going to talk? Anything else you want to say about? Write the script you can produce.
Speaker 2:Well, I just think as well.
Speaker 2:it is about utilizing the community as well, I think there are lots of people who want to make things too, and don't ever feel like you're the only person who wants to, and I think that has happened a few times. And then suddenly people have turned up and gone. Oh, hang on, didn't realize there were other people who I could work with. So utilize places like the Audio Drama Hub and the Reddit spaces and the Discord spaces and so on and so forth, and we've put links on previous show notes, so have a little delve into our back episodes if it's not too an impolite thing to ask you to do, and yeah, we can put links here too.
Speaker 2:I mean, let's do it. Sprinkle them liberally, um, yes, but yeah, I think you know, if you want, if you've got a script and you want it read, ask on the audio drama hub in those places I mentioned um for a set of time and get people along and try and get some feedback, or send people your list of questions that you want feedback on. You know me and Lindsay aren't unapproachable. I mean, we're very busy, ladies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it takes me a while to respond to messages, but eventually I will. I remember one year, on the Audio Drama Hub several years ago I think it was right at the very end of June or maybe it was in July somebody said how come we didn't do anything for Pride Month? Okay, and everybody kind of went what? First of all, I think the audio drama scene is probably the least heterosexual scene on the internet. Huzzah, yeah. And I think we all kind of said well, well, you know what? Well, now we've got tons of time to plan. We can plan something for next year. Say something in May, say something in April, if you want it, If you have an ideal, you know, talk to people, let's do it.
Speaker 2:There's nobody who's a plug right. Nobody is the one lifting the thing out to tell you to do it. It's like, if you want to do it, do it, and that's what I do.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you noticed A little bit, a little bit, so it's like go for it, do it.
Speaker 2:Yes, but if there's something that needs like talking about doing. That's why in DAF and Advit with you and other podcasts like Mediva have existed, because I thought there's a space to talk about people making these beautiful things. And so that's my contribution and I do what I can to be useful, but yeah, to do things.
Speaker 1:You know what I just thought of, something I wish I'm going to throw this out into the universe here I wish Matthew Boudreau, the guy who does 11th Hour Audio, I wish he would do an April Fool's 11th hour. That was all things that are not horror. Like everybody can take their scripts that are not horror and produce them and put them together into one show and it'll be the April Fool's 11th hour.
Speaker 1:But they had an untold amount of time to make it. Okay, I don't know. Okay, moving on, let's talk about how you write a podcast description, because this is I'm Sarah. When you see a podcast description, what is it about the way it's written that makes you say, oh, that's a good one, I'm going to put that one on my list, or it?
Speaker 2:makes me laugh, or I just think, oh okay, that's front or an angle of intrigue. Then, yes, I will be drawn to have a look at more, I'd say. A lot of that comes with something visual these days too, potentially. Yeah, it's not just the words that count anymore.
Speaker 1:The podcast host did a survey some years back about how people discover podcasts and one of the things they found was they ranked what works on people best when they're. If they're looking through a directory, the art outranked whether or not you had heard of the host or presenter. And it also outranked, I think it was whether you had heard of the host or presenter. Yeah, and it also outranked, I think, it was whether you had heard of the topic. Like, basically, art matters. Yeah, that's all I'm saying. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:And I think you know I did a course last week out in somewhere beautiful in Slovakia, kosovo, and people there were fantastic.
Speaker 2:It was just the best fun and we were talking about that exactly. And I pulled out some of my favourite images and I got them to look on the scene at the minute on Apple Podcasts or GoodPods or whatever they were using, and just to tell me from there, just visually, what pieces stood out, what intrigued them and why. And we got artwork like Night Vale Welcome to Night Vale. Just because of that kind of eye in the sky and there's some just intriguing, the colors of it were vivid against the sea of other, perhaps less exciting colors.
Speaker 1:Getting back to the way you write your podcast description, there's your podcast description and your episode description, and I'm not talking about your episode description, I'm talking about your overall description and the thing is that, once you again, we promised that we were not going to tell you this is not a production podcast, it is a writing podcast and I am going to tell you how to write. When you write that description and it goes into your RSS feed, that means that any automated system that makes it easier for people to find your podcast is going to use that description. So it's very important. And the description because I do the Fiction Podcast Weekly newsletter, I see so many podcast descriptions that just make me want to shove myself away from the desk and run away.
Speaker 2:I thought you were going to become like Purple Hulk or something. Yes, I don't know what Philadelphia colors are, but running away into the distance.
Speaker 1:I want you to tell me who it's a story about, what do they want to do and what's getting in their way?
Speaker 2:That's what I want. In how many sentences? Two or less.
Speaker 1:Doesn't matter, just get there. I mean, I'd really like it to be shorter than a tweet, because there's a finite number of characters that show up in many of these automated things like podcast directories or somebody, oh, somebody like the Cambridge Geek. The Cambridge Geek I can't remember his real name. He's so awesome. I think his first name is Rob. He's so nice, probably on Mastodon or Blue Sky or something too, and then he's also got a Patreon which I contribute to because it shows you all the new shows every week that he's been able to find and because those go by RSS feed. Again, it's a finite number of characters when it shows the description.
Speaker 1:Somebody said a sentence to me that I thought would have been just the best sentence. It was we're not the kind of family that should fly kites. If that were an audio drama description, I would be like I'm listening to that right now. I mean, what do I get out of that? We're not the kind of family who should fly kites. A family and kite flying that makes you go. Hmm, what are we talking about now? I want your description to tell me Dara Golding wants to win at Wimbledon, but she has no tennis, no professional tennis experience.
Speaker 2:I like the premise.
Speaker 1:That's a good podcast description as far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 2:Oh, I wouldn't give to hit a few balls at Wimbledon, good Lord. But yeah, I think there's a lot of really good descriptor services as well. With regards to being able to have a look through different podcast hosts and look at your favorite podcast, what have they got their first two sentences? How does it hit you? How does it describe that podcast so beautifully within the least? What's the word? The least complicated but effective words?
Speaker 1:I think yeah. And another thing that I think is a it's a poor precedent to set. See, now, here's the thing. Like, for example, if you have a show that's put out by atypical artists, it's always going to say something like from the creator of the Bright Sessions yes, because legacy. Yeah, the guys from the Amelia Project put out a show. They're going to say from the creator of the Bright Sessions Because legacy. Yeah, the guys from the Amelia Project put out a show. They're going to say from the creators of the Amelia Project, that's fine. But I also see these descriptions that say things like from the brilliant mind of unknown author, steve Southwire, for everybody at home. I just picked up a screwdriver and read the thing on the side of the handle Don't tell me how brilliant you are or how awe-inspiring this podcast is.
Speaker 2:Okay, lindsay. Lindsay, I'm going to give you some examples and you're going to tell me how they're effective. Okay, this one is a mystery drama about the limits of experimental science, confronting your own past, present and future, and trying to remember the level select sheet from Sonic 2.
Speaker 1:How does that hit you? I'm lost. I'm lost. I don't know who it's about. Okay, what was it about? The limits of technology, or something? A mystery drama?
Speaker 2:A mystery drama About the limits of experimental science, confronting your own past, past, present and future. Uh-huh, and trying to remember the level select cheat from sonic 2. Trying to remember I like the cheekiness of that for me. Trying to remember the level select cheat.
Speaker 1:The level select cheat. Thank you from sonic 2. Okay, now I'm a little bit more intrigued by that. Okay, because you've got a juxtaposition of two very different themes.
Speaker 2:And there's humor in it. Right, yeah, there's humor in it. That cheap bit at the end goes oh hello. So that will appeal to a certain demographic who like playing Sonic. Right yeah, here's another one. Okay, okay, wait, wait wait what show is that that was Red Valley. Everyone go listen. Scrooge Red Valley.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay.
Speaker 2:In a dystopian city.
Speaker 1:Oh, sarah, don't do that. You're going to hurt yourself, Am I? No, that's only two sentences If you go right ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 2:An aging courier is forced to go into business with an underworld gang lord in order to pay for the treatment that keeps him alive. Yes, that's creepy, isn't it? That's the strata, the strata by the good old Mark Haley.
Speaker 1:But you told me it's about a courier who has to do something they really don't want to do in order to keep themselves alive. Yeah, heck, that resonates. That resonates with anybody who's ever had a job. I mean, cool, bring it Okay. Yeah, one more, one more, yes.
Speaker 3:Okay, this is going to be my current voice. Explore the far reaches of the world's horrors in the audio drama podcast, the Hmm Hmm. Follow the collected records of a repair team sent to outpost Fristead in the vast white wastes of Svel you know what this is? Svelbard and unravel. What lies waiting in the ice below?
Speaker 1:I would cut the first sentence.
Speaker 2:Explore the far reaches of the world's horrors.
Speaker 1:That could be no disrespect, because I do love Travis and Caitlin, but I would cut that first sentence. We'll moot it.
Speaker 2:See what happens.
Speaker 1:See how much power you have. So the thing is, you could explore the far reaches of the world's horrors. That could still be something like the Twilight Zone, which is very different from the White Ball.
Speaker 2:But then wouldn't it make the Twilight Zone listeners go? Oh, actually I like the sound of that.
Speaker 1:I think it's too vague. I need some specificity on that, keep in mind. Oh, I don't know. See, I got sucked in by the svalbard. Yeah, that's to be honest. When I first started listening to it I was like I don't know what this is. Svalbard? Oh, that sounds cold, intriguing place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, so mentioning place of intriguement is groovy, okay, places, people. You know what I've done. There is just gone on to rephonic. If you don't use it, you should yes, you should type in your own podcast or podcasts you like, and uh, and then it gives you this wonderful graph of a gazillion different shows that are somehow connected or similar to, or and then like, of your own. So uh, on that it will give you. If you just click on the artwork for each of the pieces, it gives you their key information. So if you want more, go on there as an easy way to do it. And that's, I think that's one of the easiest way to navigate um that corner.
Speaker 1:Yes, one of the the reason I the reason I bring this up for when you're at the writing stage as opposed to the production stage is that you need to have an elevator pitch. People say you need to be able to sum up your show in one sentence. When I was still at a very early stage with the thing that I'm working on right now, one of my neighbors and I were talking and I said, yeah, I'm writing this adaptation of Iphigenia and she said never heard of it. I'm like, okay, wow, I see a great need for this show to reach a new audience. Okay, I said, well, yeah, I said it's about the Trojan War, but this story is from the point of view of the servants. Perspective change. And she said, oh, I'll buy that. Like that made sense to her.
Speaker 1:So then I went back inside and I'm like okay, treasure more from the point of view of the servants, that is something I can write. And now my whole project seemed less daunting, it's huge, less overwhelming. Exactly, yeah, right, exactly. I wasn't thinking about like well, it's about why the gods are evil and war is bad and women are wonderful. I wasn't thinking about all that stuff. It was just the Trojan War from the point of view of the servants. Oh, ok, you know the people.
Speaker 2:I mean that's good. That's almost like you had a kind of peer review process there in by accident. Yes, and I think using people who perhaps are either in the industry or at least will give you an opinion who necessarily, you know, don't have to have any feet or uh stake in making stuff, can still give you an opinion of something. So finding that, I think, is something that you have to be brave and do sometimes, yes, and I know it's hard because I've had to do it myself and, um, you know, failure is scary, as lindsey has already mentioned, but it's also like massive learning curve of an adventure once you get over, you're like, oh okay, well, I won't do that again.
Speaker 1:What did I learn? Learned bigger. Here's the thing that I've noticed is that people become so this is your script is not a human baby and it may feel like it's your baby and, believe me, I know what that's like but when the script that you're working on is tied into your ego, that can prevent you from putting it down and going and working on other things, and it can also prevent you from drawing inspiration from other things. If you're working on a show with a family member, or more than one family member, or something like that, you may feel really compromised because you may feel like, well, if I abandon this project, it's like I'm abandoning them. No, it's not. You're just making yourself a better writer. You're not abandoning anything. You're just putting it down so you can write something else for five minutes.
Speaker 1:I've seen people just keep revising the same script over and over again for years. And, yeah, it does take a long time to make a script right. Yeah, time to make a script right. And I've seen people like sink a lot of money into workshops and classes and so on and so forth, and it's one thing to learn something new. But it's another thing to just sit on the same script for too long.
Speaker 1:Be open to change with that script, just as an example letting someone else direct your work or letting someone else take responsibility for your work, whether that's producing or whatever I mean. On the one hand, I really feel like everybody should self-produce, because it will teach you so much more about your own writing and it'll help you in a lot of ways as a writer. But I also think that sometimes you just need to take your hands off it. Yeah, but I also think that sometimes you just seem to like take your hands off it, take your ego off of it, right? So you've got to be open to the possibility that something with your script could change in a big way and be done in a very different way, and just let that happen, because actors are brilliant, because actors are brilliant, aren't they?
Speaker 2:actors Some of them do some really groovy things. I've seen it in action. Some of the people I've watched and enjoyed as an audience member and working alongside it's just so good. And they just bring those words off the page. Yes, and it's just more flesh than you could even have. You know if that person was actually real.
Speaker 1:There's nothing better than having somebody reinterpret your work in a new way that you hadn't considered. It's so good, yeah, yeah. So, speaking of perspective, two things about perspective on your work and being able to sort of like set yourself apart from it One of the things I feel really strongly about, and I've seen this happen. The first time I ever heard this happen, I was like, wow, you're kind of obnoxious. And then I saw it more and more and I was like, oh, maybe it's not kind of obnoxious.
Speaker 1:I took a writing class with Doug Wright, who was the author of Quills and I Am my Own Wife, among other projects and when he was introducing the material at the beginning of the class he said finally, I have to say one thing.
Speaker 1:This happens every time I teach a class I cannot read your script, I cannot produce your script, I cannot be a conduit to move your script on to something else.
Speaker 1:Please don't give me your script, or try to give me your script, because I'm going to say no and I hate to say no to playwrights, but I have to and I would really hate it if I read your script and then forgot about it and then wrote something else that was very similar and it seemed like plagiarism.
Speaker 1:I think those kind of law cases have happened before, and with varying degrees of somebody. Maybe somebody was in a development program and they didn't, and they submitted a script and then five years later they find out that this big studio has it. Maybe it's an accident which can happen. You'll hear writing professionals at every stage say this, and what I've also found is that if somebody gives me a script to read without me asking for it, I feel like, oh good, you just gave me homework. Now I'm going to feel guilty if I don't read it, and that's less time that I can put into other things like making this podcast. It's kind of you to think that me saying, wow, your script is great is going to help you, but it's not going to help you.
Speaker 2:It's a difficult thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is a difficult thing. And then you say, well, how do I give feedback?
Speaker 2:Well, that's when you invite your friends over and you bake banana bread, I mean or pay for a consultancy service like people like David K Barnes and that kind of route have got specific websites where you can contact them and ask them to be a consultant on your script.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so just do a Google search for script consulting and that will definitely help. And yeah, you have to pay for it, but you're paying for their time and their expertise.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have to just draw attention to the sentence you've written on here. If you need validation, buy yourself a Klondike bar or hire an escort to give you compliments, or something. Do they not have Klondike bars in the UK? I have no idea what that is, but it sounds like it's got hills on it or something. Oh, I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's a very cold. Imagine if you will a frozen brick of vanilla ice cream. Now cover it in dark chocolate and freeze it some more. You're welcome. Yeah, that's a Klondike bar.
Speaker 2:Wait, you haven't given it to me, you've just described it.
Speaker 1:I know, but still I don't want one. Am I going to have?
Speaker 2:to fly to.
Speaker 1:Philadelphia to get one. Oh well, we'll get them by the ton. I think that having other people's perspective on your work is very valuable, but how you ask for it is going to color what happens. And yeah, I mean okay, maybe that was mean to say if you need validation, go hire an escort and have them give compliments. But on the other hand, my escort, danny, likes to tell me all the time how great he thinks my cello playing is, and I haven't got the heart to tell him that I don't practice playing the cello at all. Meanwhile, sarah and I are going to make a podcast that just gives compliments for $500 for every five minutes. We should.
Speaker 2:That would be gorgeous on the landscape. I'd listen to you giving compliments you are so beautiful and so smart.
Speaker 1:And now here's a word from Blue Apron. The word is scissorgy.
Speaker 2:I'm excited about the fact that I've got to the phase of writing where they can share it, so well done for you for getting that far. It is precious. It's not necessarily a careful baby, is it, but it's it's the analogy that's used because it's something so important that you have very painfully and with a many, many hours birth, right, yes, so so we understand that, but, um, yeah, I think you cannot cheat on that beautiful script, okay.
Speaker 1:Sometimes, when you're working on a script midway through the process like maybe you haven't even gotten to the end of the first draft you'll start thinking about another idea.
Speaker 1:And you'll be like, maybe I really want to write that Christmas play about the socks and maybe I really want to write something else. Work to done. Don't work to perfect, Work to done. D-u-n. Jessica Abel has a thing about idea debt and the idea. The whole concept is basically like you have so many projects that you want to do, Like, oh, I want to make a comic book about wedge sandals and I want to write a Christmas story about socks. If you don't get any of those things done, you're not going to get anything done. I've heard people say like well, I can't let myself listen to other audio dramas because I might get unnecessarily influenced by them.
Speaker 2:I've heard someone say that. I can't remember who it was now, but I have had that in the AFL-Tune.
Speaker 1:Oh, I've heard more than one person say it. You're missing out, folks, if you do that. In some ways I've been that person because when I was working on Yarn Soxa, I read the poetic Edda. I read a lot of different poetry, but I deliberately did not watch the Marvel movies. I also derived a lot of inspiration from shows like Small Town Horror by John Grylls, the whole sense of atmosphere and claustrophobia and a lot of stuff about writing for fear. Oh the fear.
Speaker 2:You know we love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and listening to the Truth is one of those shows that their show is going to be completely different from yours no matter what, but you still can get a lot of great ideas about how to balance things.
Speaker 2:How to shock, how to turn, how to twist, how to shove in the weapon yes, just all that good stuff.
Speaker 1:You get a sense of what's possible in audio drama when you listen to a lot of different shows, and I think that it's very necessary to listen to other shows, the more unlike yours.
Speaker 2:And how you're going to write those sound design ideas into your script alongside everything else, yeah, which is truly another interesting skill.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like, one of my favorite things ever was like I think it was the first episode of Blood Culture. They had this whole thing with office gossip and it was all these different people talking, but in the background, all you can hear is the typewriters, as they're all emailing each other or chatting or something. Yeah, so I thought that was really good, sarah. What else do we want to talk about?
Speaker 2:We've talked about it was just the PR stuff really, isn't it Really? I mean, we've we touched on it a little bit, but yeah, just that whole area of I don't know branding.
Speaker 1:You don't want to care too much about what other people think as you're writing, because care too much about what other people think as you're writing, because if you're sitting here thinking, well, what should I write that people will like? When you worry too much about what other people like you're, you know you try to make something for everybody. You're going to end up making wonder bread yeah, I've.
Speaker 2:I've thought a lot about this and I think personifying your audience and doing it to a specific person that you've created has helped not just me but a good few other folks to just hone where they're aiming for.
Speaker 1:Having an ideal listener, yeah, or an ideal audience.
Speaker 2:Who is our ideal listener? Let's paint that picture who is the ideal listener you are? See, if it's you, you are.
Speaker 3:You are, you are See if it's you, you are.
Speaker 1:You are Listening there with your three unfinished scripts and your one that's finished and perhaps slightly in production, or maybe you're somebody who's sitting here, who's been producing scripts for a while and you're saying to yourself I'm not enjoying what I'm doing, even if you're a huge success. Well, okay, how do we define success in podcasting?
Speaker 3:Oh my God, how do we define success in podcasting? Oh my God, how do you do that, Lindsay?
Speaker 2:Is it with spin the bottle? Spin the bottle, yes. Who do you get?
Speaker 3:to smooch.
Speaker 2:If it points at you, you're a winner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, I think you have to define your own goals and meet them. In my case, I knew that what I wanted was a better job. Because I made Yarn Soxa, I was able to meet Matthew McLean and I was able to find all of the avenues of. I was able to meet Sarah and I was able to learn from other people in podcasting, and then I was eventually able to get the job that I have now. It wasn't a direct route. It wasn't Matthew calling me up and saying hey, we love Yarn Socks Arising. Why don't you come work for us? Not a hard graft, yeah, no, it wasn't any of that crazy stuff. It was just. You know, I built some skills and then I got a better job. What's a hard graft?
Speaker 2:Hard graft, lindsay, don't poo poo that Hard graft. Hard graft, Lindsay. Don't poo-poo that Hard graft. Hard graft means you do lots of work. That's really hard to get to where you are.
Speaker 1:Yes, hard graft. Sarah has all the great expressions I've never heard before.
Speaker 2:Well, you've got Klondike bars. I mean, we do a trade.
Speaker 1:Klondike bars. True, what would you do for a Klondike? What would you do for a?
Speaker 2:Klondike bar. I don't think it's publishable right now.
Speaker 1:No, I don't think you should let anything get between you and getting your script out there into the world. Please make it, you know. What it's also worth talking briefly about is this idea of like okay, I have a script, who's going to produce it, and when you just send it to other people, you're taking away your own power. You're sort of you're diminishing.
Speaker 2:Also how you do. That is key, having been on the receiving end of many pitches and scripts and some people just send Whatever Nothing. They just say here's my pitch, that's it. I don't know anything about them. I don't know why they're making it. I don't know what it's got to do with anything or how passionate they are about getting this up and made. He's just like here's my, because they probably sent it to a gazillion people, right, but I I'm about for me personally as a producer, production manager and a quirky voices lady.
Speaker 2:I am about like, okay, what, what grip does this have on me? That I'm passionate enough to make it. When I got the Giza Bird pitch in from Natasha Desperate, it was like it was all the things that excites me.
Speaker 1:What materials did she send, though? The things were in machination already.
Speaker 2:So it was a description of the play, the audio fiction itself with the core themes, and she hadn't yet written it. So this was the pitch stage. The beautiful Tash wrote five episodes of 28 Minutes and we just couldn't produce all of that with the budget we had available at the time couldn't produce all of that with the budget we had available at the time.
Speaker 2:So, working together because our ping pong, email and connection over WhatsApp and phone calls was fun and feisty and we're women with the same kind of passions, I suppose we connected and she was able to write this 45 minutes.
Speaker 1:Brilliant version. Yeah, it sounds like there was the initial pitch and then a little bit of devising and discussing going on.
Speaker 2:It's knowing who you're pitching to, I think, is also key.
Speaker 1:Yeah you do need to know, like I'm not going to send my script to a company that produces kids shows, Because for kids it's not going to mean anything to them, no, the content could be. They're not going to care, research them. No, the content could be.
Speaker 2:They're not going to care Research companies, research research. Who you're sending to? What have they made? What are they doing? What is their focus?
Speaker 1:Research companies. There's tons of competitions out there that are a little vague about what they want. They may want a script, but look at what they've awarded in the past, what they value, what their mission statement is, what's important to them. You may find, for example, there are loads of screenplay competitions that have a fiction podcast category in it and they still sort of have their screenplay hat on they solidly have their screenplay hat on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. So no, I do find that there's more audio fiction places opening up, not for just sending your scripts, but also completed works as well, and I think that's worth a delve. I think the Film Freeway such a labor, but she's so good. Talia, talia, augustidis, augustidis.
Speaker 1:The lady who runs that, well done. It's a newsletter that you can sign up for that has opportunities for all kinds of audio things. It's very much a journalistic opportunity list, but there are things in there that are fiction or experimental audio or things my cat told me it's worth pursuing. It's called All here and you can find it on transomorg.
Speaker 2:I think let's end strong, lindsay. Let's end strong and let's just think of all the amazing things we've kind of reflected on and looked at in the last, however many episodes we have. We're thinking about honing your dialogue. We're thinking about honing your pitch, understanding your table read, thinking about your characters from the perspectives of making them different and exciting, but also what makes them, who are they to themselves, and who are they to other, to the other characters, audio itself.
Speaker 2:You know exploring ways of using your communication skills to make sure that the people who are going to make your script have enough in their armory to create that solid vision and that hopefully we'll have something similar.
Speaker 1:What is it that makes your story something that can only be told through audio, like, for example, the Amelia Project? Would be a cute TV show.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But it's not, and when you get to the end of season one you'll find out why. Because the method of presentation is tied into the story they're trying to tell.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's why I love these things like Tell Me a Story, the Life and Death of Jacob Stanley, or Modes of Thought in Antaran Literature. The medium is the message, as Marshall McLuhan said, and also, whatever your obstacles are in production can be story elements.
Speaker 2:It's all there for you, so when you finish this episode, we listen to everything.
Speaker 1:Yes, we listen to everything, write things and tell us we so want to hear from you. We'd love listen to everything. Yes, we listen to everything right thing and tell us we so want to hear from you.
Speaker 2:We'd love you to join our discord. We'll ping all the links in the show notes. Come and talk about this episode and others. Tell us how you're doing, what you're up to find other people who are also trying to find kindred spirits and creating some audio fiction, because there's nothing like finding other people to hold you accountable right Accountability.
Speaker 1:It's not just to hold you accountable. There are people who can lift you up Truly.
Speaker 2:And, you know, just sharing a little bit about a character or questions. That's why we've set up the Discord, so it would be lovely to see you in there or to read you in there, and we're also keen to have your emails too, so writersadvit at gmailcom if you've got a question for us on anything we've discussed. Yes, if there's something that you would like us to focus on in future seasons. If you want more, please tell us so, because we would love to know. Please do yes, and we can sing more like that for you and your own personal ear pleasure so thank you for listening.
Speaker 2:I think let's just thank you for listening.
Speaker 1:I think let's just finish. Thank you for listening. Wait, you know who I want to put a shout out to, because it's the last episode of this season.
Speaker 2:Stephen Indrasano. Stephen Indrasano.
Speaker 1:Stephen Indrasano was the first person to write a review for AdWords. And now Stephen Indrasano way back in the day, and Stephen Indrasano is now working on Shelterwood. You're crazy.
Speaker 2:You support us, we support you.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay, everyone, thank you for listening.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting us. Happy writing.
Speaker 3:Go get them tiger.
Speaker 1:Go get them onward and upward.
Speaker 3:Avanti Happy writing.
Speaker 1:Happy upward Avanti Yay Happy writing, happy writing, happy writing 6630 Productions.
