The Lodger: A Story of the London Fog

In this episode we talk with Mark Oguschewitz about the 1927 Alfred Hitchcock film, The Lodger: A Story of the London Fog. We talk about the themes, the plot, the cast, and of course Hitchcock. Fun conversation! Click and listen! 🎥🎥🎬🎬

Be sure to check out Mark’s website underexposedcinematictreasures.com

Thanks for listening! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Well, hello, and welcome to Cinema Chat with David Heath. And I am your humble host, David Heath. And uh I talk about movies from every era and just about every genre on this podcast. And I try to have good, knowledgeable guests from time to time. And today I have somebody that has uh as a film uh film enthusiast, let's just say, uh, and also has been an editor. Um, and let's see, Mark Agushewitz. Uh how are you?

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Uh hey, hey, I'm good. How are you?

SPEAKER_03 0:39

Hey, I'm doing good. We talked last year about Quiz Show. Uh, after everybody is done listening to the show where we're going to talk about The Lodger, uh, directed by Alfred Hitchcock. Um, flip back, scroll back, and listen to our show about Quiz Show. Uh, Mark is a very knowledgeable, smart guy, and uh, we enjoyed talking with him. So we want to have him back on here again. Uh, Mark, before we get started talking about the Lodger, uh, tell us uh a little bit about you and your website.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Okay, well, um a little bit about me. Well, let's just jump uh straight into my website. My way I'm I'm a life, well, mostly lifelong movie lover. I fell in love with movies after my parents' divorce, and me and my father had nothing in common. So we just went to the movies all the time. And uh and then I ended up falling in love with movies, and I have a website called Underexposed Cinematic Treasures. I know it's long, a lot of people complain it's long, but when I went looking for a domain name, everything was taken. So um, but over at Underexposed Cinematic Treasures, what we do is we recommend underseen and unseen movies. So I try to recommend movies to people, and I basically write full reviews for these movies. Uh, and I try to recommend movies to people that I'm I really love and I really think are great, but yet nobody seems to have seen or heard of or whatever. And I want to get more attention to them and I want to get more people seeing them. And uh, I also have a celebrity page where we um we talk to celebrities. Uh we don't have long conversations, not like a podcast like this, but when we meet them, we uh we ask them point blank, hey, can you recommend us a movie that you think more people need to see? And so we've got quite a few of those up there. Everyone from people like uh Caramel Del Toro to Kiefer Sutherland to Galga Dut to uh those kinds of people. Um thankfully, I have a friend who's a member of the uh Television Academy, so he gets invited to a lot of television and movie screenings where he meets these people and he gets me these recommendations, which are really kind of cool. Um, and so basically, as a movie lover, I got really tired of all the bashing of movies that podcasts and YouTubers do. They seem to hate everything that comes out. And I decided to do 100% uh a website that was 100% love for movies. The best way to do that was to talk about movies I already loved. And I didn't want to be doing like The Godfather. You can hear people talk about The Godfather everywhere, and that's where I came up with the idea to talk about movies that uh need more attention, that people needed to know more about. Um, and uh and so I created a website, and uh you can find it at underexposed cinematic treasures.com and uh and hopefully uh you enjoy the same movies that I'm recommending.

SPEAKER_03 3:50

Yeah, it's great, and that's part of what we try to do here on CinemaChat we we talk about movies from eras that maybe people forget about or don't think about, and we also talk about movies that just simply are hidden gems. And uh when you think Alfred Hitchcock, that's not the term that you people think of. The Alfred Hitchcock's movies are well known for the most part, but let's face it, his heyday was uh the 40s and 50s and on into the 60s.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Uh everybody's got a hidden gem. I even did I even did a Steven Spielberg movie, okay?

SPEAKER_03 4:30

So yeah, which one is that?

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Well, excuse me.

SPEAKER_03 4:34

Which one is that?

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Sugarland Express.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

Oh, yeah, oh yeah, that that's a hidden gem, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, every filmmaker out there has a hidden gem. Uh Hitchcock's got a couple, actually. Um, and they're not necessarily hidden gems in the sense that not a lot of people saw them, but he's got a bunch uh that like lifeboat, where a lot of people saw them and know it, but they've forgotten about them. Those kind of get included too, because a lot of the a lot of the younger people, they think when they think of Hitchcock, they think Psycho and Rear Windows and Vertigo, but nobody ever talks about, you know, something like what we're gonna talk about today, the Lodger, which if people look up, make sure they look up The Lodger, a story of the London Fog, because there's a lot of the Lodgers out there, and they may end up watching the wrong thing.

SPEAKER_03 5:25

Oh, absolutely. I'm glad you mentioned that. And we I I want to talk about some of the uh the other Lodger movies later, but uh at least uh not in depth, but just uh talk about them a little bit bit. But the yeah, the Lodger uh by Alfred Hitchcock 1927. Make sure you're when you're looking it up. Uh it's available everywhere, it's public domain now. Uh so if uh you can't afford to buy the physical copy, it's on YouTube. Uh, I know a few of my podcast guests cringe if they hear me say it's available on YouTube, but some people can't afford to buy physical media for every movie they watch.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

Uh and the best place to watch it would be the Criterion channel.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Um, because they have a they they did a really good job with it. Um but you know, wherever you're wherever wherever you can get it. And uh when you say 1927, that makes us realize, or it makes me realize that it's almost a hundred years old.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

99, yep, 99 years. Uh and and I will say up front, uh, and I'm gonna talk to you why, Mark, you picked this movie, but but I want to say to everybody up front, when you're watching The Lodger, you absolutely cannot have distractions. Turn off the lights of every how every light in nearby and uh put your phone away, put it in a box, put it in, I don't care where you put your phone, but don't have it in your hand. Don't be looking at your phone while you're watching the Lodger from 1927, because you may very well miss something. And uh the rhythm of this movie is so vital. Uh the the rhythm of this movie is is extremely important in every silent film, but but this one in particular uh has it depends very heavily on on rhythm, I I feel.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Uh now to be clear, now to be clear, yeah. Put away your phone unless you're watching it on your phone. Now you should not be watching this or any movie on your phone, but I know people out there do.

SPEAKER_03 7:38

Yeah, that's true. That's true. Um there they're every once in a while where people do that. Um yeah, um, yeah, don't don't watch this or don't watch Lawrence over Rabi on your phone, uh though.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Um but I was listening to a podcast once, and I think that this was the last straw for me for this podcast. I I stuck it out for a while because I knew the guy who did it, who was doing the podcast, and he had he was on there with his brother, who was his co-host, and his brother started reviewing uh Eyes Wide Shut, a Stanley Kubrick film. And he's giving it a bad review, and he's saying about it, he doesn't like this, he didn't think the visuals are all that much, and this, that, and the other thing. And then he lets it slip about the woman who was sitting on the phone next to him, watching his phone, uh, watching the movie on his phone with him. Like so there was a woman sitting in the seat next to him and she was peeking over, watching it too. I guess she I don't know if he how she could hear it, but and then but I I basically realized that he was watching a Stanley Kubrick film on his phone, on an airplane with headphones and all that noise, and now he's going to review it.

SPEAKER_03 8:54

Not exactly the best scenario. Uh no.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

That's a true story. And I I literally I couldn't believe I was listening to it.

SPEAKER_03 9:02

Now later, I you know I'm gonna hit hit hit pause and ask you who uh what is this podcast? But I'm not I I won't give him negative pub um on the air.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

It's a podcast that's not around anymore, so you don't need to show it.

SPEAKER_03 9:14

Oh, okay, okay, okay. Uh yeah, but that is terrible. Yeah, and you can't, um, you know, and first of all, uh, I do remember there were a handful of people that didn't like Eyes Wide Shut, but but uh I have um you know it's it's become fairly r not fairly, it's become very relevant.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

Uh but even if you didn't like it, because I'm not a big fan of Eyes Wide Shut when it comes down to it, but respect it enough if you're going to review it and watch it properly.

SPEAKER_03 9:42

Yeah, no, exactly. You're watching a Kubrick movie, you definitely don't want to watch it on your phone.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

That's that's that's or listen to it, you know, in headphones. And have you ever watched uh a movie on an air an airplane? It's got all it's got all that noise and everything.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

Yeah, save that for Happy Gilmore and stuff like that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

But uh but we love movies and we respect movies, and so we do it right on this podcast.

SPEAKER_03 10:07

That's right. Um, so whenever I uh asked you back on this uh show, you uh I I can't remember what choices I gave you, uh, but uh you definitely wanted to do one on the Lodger again, 1927. Uh now uh what made you choose this movie? What uh what was your tell me what your first experience was watching it, and then tell me why uh you value it so much.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Yeah, I don't remember why uh during our first conversation I zeroed in on this movie. I was probably in a certain place. Uh I might have even just reviewed it on my website. Um, I think this movie is incredibly important for so many reasons that more people should see it. Not only is it a really great movie, um, it's it's suspenseful, it's uh it's it's well written, it's very well directed, it's the first it's the first Hitchcock movie that Hitchcock felt was the first movie that really showed his style and what he wanted to do. Um, I think it was his third film, maybe a second film, but I think it was his third film. And uh and so you can really get a sense of Hitchcock as he's starting to discover his own style and his own uh his own way of doing things. But I also think it's an important film because I know so many people who balk on watching older films. They tell me how much they love movies, but you know, you recommend them a movie that's in black and white, and they're like, oh, there's no color, I don't want to watch that. Or oh my god, there's no sound. I'm gonna have to, you know, read the little cards in between. I don't want to watch that. And then it's really hard to convince them to check out a silent film. This movie, and and to and to be honest with you, it kind of used to be that way because silent films can be very hard to sit through if you're not really involved in it. But I had a friend who's really big into silent films. He's like, Mark, you really need to see more silent films. You really need to see more silent films. And he gave me a whole list of silent films that I should watch. And the Lodger was not on them. And uh so I looked through it, and a lot of them I had seen, you know, stuff like Nosferatu and Metropolis. And so I just kind of Googled uh silent films, and this one from Hitchcock came up, and I'm like, I didn't even know Hitchcock did silent films. This is interesting. And Criterion had had the Lodger, so I knew that if Criterion's backing it, it's probably really good. And I put it in and it blew me away because it it changed my mind about silent films. And there are certain things that changed my mind about things. I don't think you should judge anything until you experience it. And I hate myself for not seeing more silent films before this one, and having that attitude of, oh my god, they're gonna be hard to get through. Because when I was in film school, the silent films they showed us, well, some of them were hard to get through. Um, and they can also tend to be very long. But then I put in this film, The Lodger, History of London Fog. Um, and uh, right from the very beginning, it just catches you. And it's got such a commercial appeal to it that I think it'll win anybody over. You know, anybody who's thinking, oh my god, there's no sound, that we're gonna have to read the little title cards, they're gonna be talking, and we're not even gonna know 90% of what they're saying because they only title card up a little of it. We're gonna have to figure it out. Uh, it's in black and white, or in this case, because I watched the criterion of the lodger, uh, it's a lot of it's in sepia tone. Um it's all the things that make you feel like, oh, it's just gonna be old-fashioned. I don't know if I can get through it. The minute you start watching this movie, it doesn't have any, I mean, it has all that, but it doesn't feel like it has all that. Because what Hitchhik does is he makes this really commercial film that feels commercial by I want to say today's standards, but there's no CGI, so it's hard to say that today's standards. So by 15 years ago standards, um, it's it move it moves really fast, it's got some really interesting twists and turns. Um, there's one complaint that a lot of people have had, but I don't think they should be complaining about, and we can get into that a little bit later. Um it's about predictability. Um it just it feels it doesn't feel like the kind of film that you would expect when you're thinking about watching a movie by a master filmmaker that you should be studying. Because when you go to film school, there's a certain kind of movie that they show you. You know, they're showing you the Citizen Canes, which you know, most people think is a masterpiece, or they're showing you the Vertigo, so they're showing you Battleship Potemkin for a silent film. But this doesn't feel like the kind of movie that you would watch in film school. This feels like the kind of movie you'd go to the theater and go see and enjoy in every way. It's like Hitchcock locked into the commercial elements all the way back in 1927. Um, it's interesting to look at. The cinematography is really interesting at times. The very opening shot, this close-up of a screaming girl, it's just one of the great, all-time great shots in any film I've ever seen. And uh it's just interesting all the way through. Interesting characters, interesting cinematography, interesting uh uh interesting acting, and just interesting production design, interesting uh costume design, especially the way they costume up uh the lodger uh in his first appearance. Um it's just this is the kind of movie that people need need to watch. You know, we live in a time now where everything's CGI and everything is uh you know so plot oriented, they forget about characters half the time. And and it's just the same thing, same thing, same thing. This just it feels fresh, it feels commercial, it feels exciting. It's everything about it made me then when it was over go, man, I really need to see more silent films. I really need to see more silent films, and uh, and and I did. I started watching more silent films when I was done with it. Um, and uh, you know, I think that that in that way it's important, but I also think it's it's entertaining. Um, I think it's one of Hitchcock's best films. That's gonna be very controversial because he's just finding himself uh while he's making this movie, and people are gonna sit there and tell me that uh, oh, but what about Rare Window? What about Vertigo? I think it's better than both those movies.

SPEAKER_03 17:19

Wow, yeah, that's that's a statement.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Well, I think it's more thrilling. I think it moves better. My problem with Vertigo, I mean, I love Hitchcock, but Vertigo is not one of the ones I love because I think it's so slow and boring. This one just moves, and it goes from point, you know, you know, point A to point B to point C to point D. And once the uh we get to that night scene where the lodger goes out for the night and we don't know what he did, but but there is a woman that's killed that night. From that point forward, this thing just moves, and it's it moves in a really good way and a really interesting way, an edge of your seat kind of way. And uh and and I've probably just rambling now, but uh you know, I I really really really enjoyed it. And it went from I went from a person who was kind of like silent silent films were my black hole. Like I watch everything. I watch kids' movies, horror movies, uh dramas, foreign films, you name it, I watch it, but silent films were kind of my black hole where I did not see enough. After watching The Lodger, a story of the London Fog, I'm gonna try and say the whole thing.

SPEAKER_03 18:28

There you go. There you go.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Um, after I watched that, I just decided I need to now really fill this this this hole in and start watching more. It really inspired me to watch uh watch more.

SPEAKER_03 18:42

Yeah, for those of uh the peop the listeners that uh bounce in and out of the of the the audio, maybe you left the room and came back, and you know, yeah, the the interesting thing about this movie is is that there are different variations of it, but we're talking about the Lodger from 1927. It's called uh the Lodger, a story of London Fog. And it's a silent from 1927, it's not the one from 32, it's not the one from 44. Uh there's several of them. Um, but yeah, those ones are inferior. Uh, and and really for most people they you would say inferior by far. Uh Mark, have you ever seen it on the big screen?

SPEAKER_02 19:26

No, I have not.

SPEAKER_03 19:28

Yeah, I had an opportunity to see uh the Lodger uh two years ago on the big screen here at uh I guess they call them micro theaters. Um they're the the the I I heard that term for the first time and I realized, okay, that's like a micro. That's what a micro theater is. Um but uh you know, just a smaller movie theater. Um and uh there was a guy that played uh music, live music for it. Um I want to say, you know, I wasn't the first time I've seen the film, I've seen it before, uh, but he almost ruined it by the music because he was playing the same rhythms and beats over and over and over again, and I and and it was too loud and it just didn't fit the the context.

SPEAKER_02 20:16

Some of it you didn't have good musicians, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:20

He he he I think he thinks he's good.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

That that's a shame because sometimes when you see these silent films, if you get them with a really good uh set of musicians playing it live, because I saw Metropolis with uh a live, it was a total uh percussion band, and they were amazing with it. But I can I mean the music's a big part of a silent film, it kind of helps with the pacing of the film.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

Yeah, my and and my friend Ben Modell, who's been on the show uh uh before, uh I it by the time this show uh airs, it's gonna be too late to promote it, but uh but I'll I'll see him uh in uh uh a week from the time where we're recording this. We're going to be uh at the Silent Film Festival in Topeka, Kansas, and he plays every year there. And uh uh it's very exciting. For for people uh that have access to uh to uh silent film festival. Uh they're just uh it's just so fun to go.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

What kind of film what what movies do they play?

SPEAKER_03 21:29

Um they in in Topeka, they have um um it's really all over the map. Uh every year kind of there's a theme, but not really, because they try to do c comedies, you know, short comedies and they try to do short films and they try to do uh feature length films, uh, you know, being the last one of the morning or the last one of the afternoon and the last one of the evening. Um that they try to do uh but uh you know, I know one That I really enjoyed a lot was When Nighthood Was in Flower, starring Marion Davies. Uh that that um had uh Laura Gabriel, one of my other podcast guests, uh come. And uh we also one of the uh one of the sh one of the movies shown that had another one of my podcast guests. Uh um we showed um uh Doug Fairbanks uh in Robin Hood. And uh and that and we were able and that had Tracy Gosel in it uh or in the um uh introducing that film. She was also been on the show. Uh so I I think uh yeah, I've had two people from that have introduced movies at that festival, and it's just so fun. Uh the San Francisco Film Festival, uh I I understand is absolutely out of this world. So if you're out there for people listening, that's a really good one to go to. Um, although that one costs money, whereas the one in Topeka cost Kansas does not.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

It's what's your experience with with people in silent films? Like, do you find that most of the people you know uh watch them or not? Because like literally, I don't think anybody I know, with the exception of my one friend, um, who sent me the list of silent films, I don't really know anybody who watches silent films. Uh, or those silent films that they know are like Charlie Chaplin films.

SPEAKER_03 23:23

Well, uh what I have found, Mark, is that through uh things like Facebook uh social media, um I have found community. And uh and I I felt like there was a moment in time um where I was one of about 15 people that really valued the Marx brothers and Laurel and Hardy. And what I discovered through social media was that no, there are thousands and millions actually of people that uh appreciate Laurel and Hardy and the Marx brothers. And and I and that excites me. I've always known the that movies like Rear Window existed and and and and uh you know other movies that are big from the 50s and 60s. Um I've always known about those, and they've been on TV, and I witnessed them. Um, but you had to have special um antennas, you know, and I don't mean I don't mean a real an antenna, uh, and an internal antenna in your you know in your brain to scope out the uh the the older ones. Um as far as silent films go, um I I yeah, I grew up thinking I'm I I watched Harold Lloyd, I watched Charlie Chaplin, um, and uh and I and I watched Buster Keaton um and not much else when I was young. Um but uh but as I got older, it certainly to a certain point where things are available on YouTube, all of a sudden it just opened up. I'm sorry, Ben Modell. I do watch some silent films on YouTube. Uh I you know the the thing is of with me is I want everybody to have you know hard media. Um that would be great. Um, but realistically, uh I I watch two to three movies a night, and I I can't afford to buy that many DVDs and I don't have space for them.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

Uh so you know well, the reason I asked that, I mean the reason I really asked the question was because I think one of the reasons why until I discovered the Lodger and a story of the hunting fog, I had to look up to to the micreen and that whole thing. Um I uh I felt like you know, the way a lot of people feel towards silent films. And I think the main reason is because everybody that I know that knows silent films, and for the longest time, growing up, everything it was, you know, Charlie Chaplin and those kind of comedies, you know. There was a pizza place near where we lived. Um I it was called Shakies, but it wasn't part of the Shakes that you know now. This was very, this was its own place, and they would play old movies uh while you ate pizza, and it was always like a Charlie Chaplin movie.

SPEAKER_03 26:25

I've heard of this, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:27

And um, and so that's what I thought silent movies were until I got to film school. And then they started uh showing us stuff like Battleship Attempkin. And the thing with a movie like Battleship Attemptkin is this is like a really great movie, but when you're being forced to watch it and study it, it's not as enjoyable to watch. And so I think that I had this negative uh aspect of what silent films were because I had always approached it wrong. And so then what happens is I put in the Lodger, a story of the London fog, and I'm sitting there all by myself, just sitting down to enjoy it, and I got I'm not studying it. I wasn't even thinking about doing it for my website at the time. I was just thinking about sitting down and watching it, and all of a sudden it's just it's just entertainment.

SPEAKER_03 27:14

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

And um, so I feel like if more people were to go into silent films with that attitude, um, because even when you think of Charlie Chaplin, um, or it's you know, a lot of the silent greats from uh a lot of the great comedy, comedic actors from the silent era, you still when you hear talk of like Harold Lloyd and all that, it's like you hear about how great they it everybody talks about them as artists, and movies are entertainment. And so when you're thinking, when you go in thinking, oh my god, I'm gonna watch this great masterpiece of art, it's a little different than when you go in and say, I just want to be entertained, or I just want to be absorbed absorbed myself in a movie. And so with silent films, for me, because of the way that I known them when I was growing up, and then film the way that film school presented them to me, it was always work. But then I sat there and I watched uh this Hitchcock film, and now all of a sudden it's like, oh, it's not work. Matter of fact, I never liked Nosferatu. And then the the new Nosferatu from uh what's his name that just came out.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

Right, I his name is escaping me, but I know he the my son killed me.

SPEAKER_02 28:32

When that movie came out, um it was uh I'm like, well, I'm gonna go watch all the other Nosferatu's. And I put in the the other one, and I'm not here to study it now. I'm just here to sit down and watch and enjoy it. I'm like, wow, this is a great movie. What was I thinking that other time I was watching it? Oh, I was watching it in film school where they had me studying every angle, every edit, every this, every. And if you just sit down with these movies, you can really, really enjoy them. Um, but I think that most people think it's gonna be work when they because they think about old films uh in that manner. Um, these are the kind of things that you know uh play the art houses only. And it'd be nice if maybe you're like, I haven't seen the uh this film in a theater because I'm not aware of it ever showing at a theater. I'm sure that uh I live over near Quentin Tarantino's New Beverly Cinemas. I'm willing to bet you he showed this movie at least once or twice. But I'm not aware of it because they're these little tiny theaters um that we don't know about. And maybe because theaters are really struggling. Maybe they need to start when they put it, you know how every weekend they always put in, like, you know, a back to the future uh or something like that to draw audiences. Maybe they should reach a little bit further back um in cinema history and see if maybe we can get people uh uh checking out these movies as as entertainment, uh and really, you know, giving people new eyes to watch these silent films through.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

I watched uh Casablanca on the big screen uh a couple years ago, and they're actually playing it again uh here uh in uh in uh couple weeks, I think, at the same theater. And I'm telling you, when you when you sit down and you don't see trailers and they just go pump right into that that feature film, and and it's just uh it's just so it's so cathartic. Um but yeah, there's nothing quite like seeing it on the big screen. So I I would uh definitely I and I think uh uh Mark for you and for any listeners, you can usually uh contact uh your local theater operators and just say, hey, that'd be great if you could show this. And if it's public domain, it's it doesn't cost them a thing to to to put out there. It'll just be you know uh free you know free profit for them.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Um but I wish it would I wish it was that easy. Yeah, I yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:05

Well, okay. But it's it it's uh I I I know the people that run the the the straight cat theater in in downtown Kansas City. I like said we you'd call it a micro theater. I I never heard that term until a few months ago, but that's what it is. It's a micro theater. Um and uh they play any movie that's kind of cheap to play. And uh and they you know uh they did play Limelight with Charlie Chaplin not too long ago, but uh that's probably relatively inexpensive compared to the others.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

Um but I also wonder, I also wonder um watching uh this film, um The Lodger, a story of the Lumen Fox. Um seeing it with an audience would make it an even better experience. Yeah, you know, I mean once we finally get into the film, which is kind of my fault, but you're fine. Because I'm like just talking and talking and talking, but uh um there's a there's a lot of elements to this movie that are very suspenseful, and I think that because it's from 100 years ago, 99, if you want to be technical, um because you know how people will then write into you going, Oh, we said it was 100, it's only 99. Um but um you know, so we've seen a lot of these, you know, twists and turns that that are that are in this movie, uh, and other movies that have stolen from it or paid homage to it or learned from it. Um and so a lot of that, you know, you're not gonna have that same audience experience that they would have had way back when the movie first came out. But it just feels to me like this movie would probably be really, really great to watch with the right audience. And we've got a couple of theater houses out here. Um, we got landmarks theaters, and they've got this theater called The New Art, uh, which plays mostly really low budget, independent, and older films. And I can just imagine them getting a huge audience because if they played it like as a as a midnight. And I can just imagine that being just being a really great experience to see it with a bunch of people, because this, like I said earlier, this is a very commercial movie and feeling. And so it's it's just pure entertainment. You know, there's a lot of artistic stuff going on, you know, and and and ways that he shot stuff and creative things he did. But ultimately, it works on such an entertainment level that if you could get, you know, if you could get a theater that seats 200 people, you know, three quarters full at least, I think that this would be a really great one to watch on the big screen. Also, when uh Nosferatu had come out, the new Nosferatu, um, whose I'm gonna look up while we're on the phone bringing while while we're on the conversation right now, because I really feel like I want to remember who made that. Uh the Nosferatu.

SPEAKER_03 34:07

Um Robert Edgers, yeah, that's right. Yeah, my son's gonna kill me if he hears this because he we we uh I I gotta be honest, Mark. Um sometimes uh when when I'm doing the podcast, um my brain locks because I'm so I'm so concerned about the the source material that we're talking about that I often forget uh easy things like Robert Eggers, though great director.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

I'm surprised I for I'm surprised I forgot it too. But when his movie came out, um why didn't some of these uh revival houses or smaller houses or even the bigger houses think to show the original Nosferatu? Yeah, that's it's you know the silent version of Nosferatu just to get people ready for it. Or if they didn't want to do that, they could have shown the uh Warner Hertz song one, even yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:54

No, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

I think it's a shame. I think a lot of movie history is being forgotten, you know. Um, how much longer until uh some of the better known Hitchcock movies start to go forgotten?

SPEAKER_03 35:09

That's a good question.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

I don't ever hear anybody talk about rope anymore, and that's just a great rope is a great film, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:15

Rope is a great film. Uh the uh now I guess let's get into uh the the Lodger uh uh story of the London fog. Uh that's from 1927, uh average guck, of course. Um, this is a much different film than he normally would do, and it's not just because it's silent, um, it's because it has a relative, well, a very small budget. But also, there's no real really well-known actors in this.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

Uh none of the Well, that's not true, though. I mean you may not be aware of this, and I'm sorry, I didn't mean to.

SPEAKER_03 35:54

No, you're fine, you're fine, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

It was kind of rude of me, but the guy who um Ivor N Ivor Novella Novella. Yeah, he was prolific actor, but not Cary Grant or James Stewart is what I'm yeah, no, not anybody anybody remembers now because nobody really remembers actors from the silent days unless they were comedians like Chaplin.

SPEAKER_03 36:13

Yeah, that's that's a good point.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

But uh but the fact of the matter is, is this I hope I'm pronouncing his name right. This Ivor Novello was obviously uh famous enough that uh Hitchcock wanted the ending of this movie to be uh more up in the air. He didn't want you to know whether the lodger was guilty or not. He didn't want to give you that answer. But when they signed this act drawn, because he was so well known and so popular, the studios balked on and said, no, you have to have, you know, you have to have the ending that they went with. Uh I I don't know if you want to do spoilers.

SPEAKER_03 36:50

No, well, we we will late. We will late, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:53

So we can discuss that later, but it's because of this guy's popularity.

SPEAKER_03 36:57

Um, and I don't I don't know if anybody else was uh famous because just ever since seeing this movie, I've just started kind of getting into the Yeah, June Trip was the was the uh the uh the romantic interest, and and she has a a relatively uh long uh career, but nothing really big other than this. And and then the other characters uh in the in the film, they were all established character actors or stage actors that really weren't right really well known in the film industry. Um, and you know, but there's not the typical like June Tripp is uh you know a beautiful lady, but she uh isn't quite, you know, uh like some of the she's not Grace Kelly, let's put it that way. Um, you know, but uh it's a it's a different film. What do you think overall about the acting? Because I think it's superior. Uh I think his acting is so like a couple people uh I heard did review say that a couple of the actors, the the older ones were over the top. I don't agree. I thought it was just really fabulous across the board. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Um, when you hear uh reviewers say stuff like this, and it it it bothers me because they don't have an understanding of going back in time and what movies were like back in that time. That you don't you can't view a movie that's 99 years old as if it was made for today's audience.

SPEAKER_03 38:35

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

And so when you're looking at the silent films, it it has to be over the top because we have to understand everything that's being said without hearing the dialogue. We see them talking, but we don't hear the dialogue. So it's sort of like a stage play. Um, when an actor performs on stage, they perform differently than when they do in front of a camera. Because in front of a camera, you get the close-ups, you can see every nuance of the emotions being portrayed. But on stage, you're playing for that back uh row, which and if you're not a little bit over the top, then the back row is not gonna see it.

unknown 39:16

Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

They're not gonna get it and they're not gonna understand it. And it's the same thing here with silent films, is if they're not over-exaggerating because they can't really speak, and they really can't um use that sound as an emotion, then they they have to basically because they can't use sound, they have to compensate. And so, yeah, I feel like some of it is over the top, but it's exactly what it should be so that we understand what's going on. And so when when reviewers look back at a movie and they start commenting on it, you know, like uh because if it was made today, it wouldn't fly, um, that's the wrong way to look at it. You gotta look at it as if you were watching it in the time period that it was made. And that's why, you know, there's a lot of things with this film, you know, that if you don't go into it, that mentality, you can't enjoy it. But you also have to recognize that if it wasn't for this movie, all these movies that you're that are causing you to feel this way wouldn't exist if it wasn't for this film. So, you know, this gets a little off topic off of the acting, but you know, we know where the lodger stands in this movie because they're so obviously trying to make you feel one way about it, it has to be the other way. But that's because we've seen so many movies over the last hundred years that have done that, then we get it. But in 1927, you didn't have cliche after cliche after cliche. So people watching at that time period probably were completely fooled, probably thought something else was going on. And so to get back to the acting now, you have to look at it. This is not a sound film, this is not a film where people are crying, you can hear the sobs, um, where an angry person bangs his fist down on the uh on the table and you can hear the force of that bang. No, it's you kind of it has to be a little over-exaggerated for us to understand. You know, whereas if somebody, this doesn't happen in this movie, but it's the best example. If somebody were to bang their fists in a silent film, you kind of maybe want to have some dust on the uh on the table that kind of you know kind of comes up into the air to kind of you know uh really relate that that's how hard he hit the hit the table. But in a sound film, you don't need that. And so these critics, they need to, they need to get in their little time machines and pretend like, you know, they're in that time period. And if if they do that, I think they'll see that the acting in this movie is really solid and really, really good. Um, I don't think that a lot of the emotions would be would I don't think they'd really come across if it wasn't for the way they were being performed. Um and so I I actually think the performances are really, really solid.

SPEAKER_03 42:25

Oh, I I I I can't agree more with everything that you said there. And and I think that the that in the in the case of the the the the two uh older people that uh owned the the lodge.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

I really like them actually.

SPEAKER_03 42:41

Yeah, I thought they were really excellent. I thought they were excellent. And uh and I I I heard somebody say, you know, they were over the top. And you said it exactly true. You you had to exaggerate some uh in some form. Um but the uh you know the the whole uh look on people's faces like, oh no, what's going on? Uh uh what you know, I it's just it's just really good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

But the one of the reasons why actors had uh a hard time adapting to sound when they were making the transition from uh silent to sound, um, because the acting becomes a very different uh different I want to I don't know who said it but it's like a very different animal, you know.

SPEAKER_03 43:30

I mean it's a different art form.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Yeah, exactly. A different art form, different style. Because when you're in the silent world, you have to you have to do it this way. But when you enter sound, now you've got all these other factors that figure in that if you do the same exact thing you did in the silent, everything is gonna feel over the top because you got all this other stuff piled on top of it. So you gotta dial yourself back to even out and and uh balance everything you know that is now. New together with everything. Everything's got to get properly balanced.

SPEAKER_03 44:05

I want to see one of the one of the uh or or more than one. I want to see uh a modern silent film. I know we've had a had a couple, but I'd like to see a modern silent film with uh with uh big time actors that won have won Oscars just to see uh you know like Merle Streep in a silent film role, you know, in a very similar role, you know, like it'd be fun to see them exaggerate uh like that.

SPEAKER_02 44:32

And I think they could do it. You know, first of all, you have the artist, which came out.

SPEAKER_03 44:37

Yeah, yeah, that's what I was referring to. Yeah, the artist.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

It's probably actually been a while now since the artist came out. Um but one thing that I love about actors and filmmakers of today, or at least a lot of actors and filmmakers today, some of them feel like they're just in it for the money, but they're a fair share that really do understand uh movies and what makes movies great. And that's why they can sometimes make a movie that's a throwback to a different kind of movie, a different era, and do it really successfully because they understood what made that era great, you know. And when you get, I know this goes back a long time, but Raiders Lost Ark was so great because it understood the movies that were so many years before, it was able to duplicate it. I think that's why everybody liked the artist. And I actually I've seen quite a few short films. People take short films and they make them into silent films where they really understand, you know, you just look at the way that the cinematography is in a silent film, where they vignette everything down so like the edges are all dark and and and so you can focus in just on the the face. Um, there's a lot of that at the beginning of the the Lodger, um, a story of the London fog. I laughed every time I say it.

SPEAKER_03 45:55

I'm laughing every time you say it too, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:57

Um but uh but uh at the beginning of the film when they had all those single shots of the people and then and they're they're 20 masks, um, there was a lot of kind of stuff like that that really allowed you to get people to focus in on uh certain areas of the screen and stuff like that that they don't really do anymore or they do different tricks to do now. Um and so a lot of these uh short films that I see at film festivals that are trying to make mock uh silent films, they'll they'll really key on it, key in on that kind of thing. And they can generally do a pretty good job. And I think a lot of the actors of today, like you mentioned, Meryl Streep, I think that she would do really well in a silent film because I think she would understand the performance that needs to be given in a silent film, that she's not just gonna come on and give her race. Because a Meryl Streep performance would not work in a silent film. Meryl Streep is one of my favorite actresses because she truly just disappears into any character she portrays. But you can't just and and becomes that person like in real life kind of way. Like you actually feel like you're looking at that person. In a silent film, I feel like if you were to give that kind of performance, I'm not sure all the emotions would necessarily come through because once again, you don't have the dialogue to really help out. Um, I mean, if you when you're watching um the Lodger story of the Lincoln Fog, um the there's a lot of dialogue going on that they don't put in the title cards. But you totally 100% understand everything that's happening and being said because of the way they're performing.

SPEAKER_03 47:34

Yeah, that that's it's narrated in uh in a way uh that's really unique. Uh it's most silent films can't uh you know it can't show you everything that's going on without more title cards than what's here. And uh the and there are some title cards to kind of you know bridge a couple of gaps, but it's it's just uh and it's just an outstanding narration. And it and you know, you don't hear anyone uh talking, you know, but you but it's still narrative.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

If you were to put up title cards every time somebody spoke in the movie, the movie would be another half hour long. It would be a snoozer the movie because it would just it would be one interruption after another, another interruption, another interruption, another. And so you can't really do that.

SPEAKER_03 48:30

And there are some silent films that are like that, and it's just it's uh you know, Buster Keaton and Charlie Chaplin had had a contest one time uh where with Amongst Each Other, where they said they it was like a little gentleman's bet uh to see who could make a movie uh that would have less title cards. Uh the general and and the kid, they were making them at the same time, and the kid had less title cards. So whatever that was with that bet involved, Chaplin won that bet.

SPEAKER_02 49:00

Um watch those two movies.

SPEAKER_03 49:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

But I mean, there to to to just kind of really move this even a little bit further, because this is this is where how Hitchcock really shined in this in this film, was you had the actors, you and I agree, performances are great, they're exactly what they need to be. But there were other things that you know, other than their dialogue and their emotions that need to come out that are really tough to do in a silent film. And Hitchcock was really, really creative in this film in doing that. You know, there's a scene where um I noticed I'm gonna talk about the one everybody talks about in a second, but before I get to that, there's a scene where uh early on in the movie where there's the police officer who's in love with uh Daisy, the main character. And rather than having a title card where he says, I love you, or anything like that, he takes a heart-shaped uh cookie cutter and he cucks into this cookie dough these hearts and he puts one on top of the other to kind of say, Hey, this is then makes you feel he really understand that he he he's in love with this girl. And then she then takes one, the one on top, picks it up and tosses it to the side. Because if you watch their relationship throughout this movie, she kisses him a lot, but it looks like she's not really that it's just it's it's it's not as romantic for her as it is for him. And then he picks up the heart and he he rips it in half. And you just totally get a whole sense of their relationship, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:38

Yeah, he's you know he's into her, but she's really not into him.

SPEAKER_02 50:43

And then of course there's the the one that everybody talks about where uh the lodger, he's he's kind of on a the he gets into the room, he rents the room and he's he's up in his room and he's pacing, and they're downstairs, and they're uh they look up because what we should be hearing is footsteps, really loud footsteps that are annoying the people underneath, but it's a silent film. We can't get that. So what Hitchcock did was he filmed through a glass ceiling. You know, he created this glass thing here, and probably not the ceiling, he probably just created a glass pane that he had uh the care the actor walking across. So, but to us, it looks like they're looking up at a glass ceiling. Well, they're not looking at a glass ceiling, it's a solid ceiling in their eyes, but through the magic of film, we see it through like a glass, because you can see his uh feet walking back and forth, walking back and forth. And that's how he really portrays that uh they're listening to him pacing up there without the use of sound. And he does a lot of stuff like this to really get this through. When we meet the lodger for the first time, we're supposed to immediately suspect that he's guilty of these crimes. But uh how are we gonna do that? Well, he shoots the door opens, the landlady opens the door, and there he is, half of his face is covered. He's staring. This is you want to talk about great performance. He's just staring in the he's just staring straight ahead. I think he looks up a little and then because the way he's looking, and you're only seeing the top half of his face because the rest is covered in a scarf and the way it's lit. It's just all this stuff works to really well together to get these emotions out in a way that I wish more filmmakers would do today, because filmmakers today they take the easy way out because they can. Filmmakers back in the silent era, they had to take the challenge and figure it out how to do this.

SPEAKER_03 52:39

Everything was painstaking back then. That that that that's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

Unless you're telling Hitchcock was gonna be a big director uh coming uh coming out of the silent era. You just really sometimes when you watch a first well, it wasn't his first film, but when you watch an early film from someone, you can sense this guy's gonna be big. I felt that way when I saw um Sugarland Express with Spielberg. Now he had done Duel, which was great. But um when you watch Sugarland Express Duel is just this great suspense thing, and that that a lot of people could have done. I know people are gonna hate me for saying that, and they may not have done it better than Spielberg, but I think they would have done an effective job. Whereas uh Sugarland Express really showed a filmmaker who knew character and story really well. And when you're done watching that, and this came out before Jaws, so everybody knows it came out right before Jaws. Um anybody who had the chance to see it, because I believe it only played two weeks in theaters, um, you can just sense, oh my god, this guy's gonna be great. Of course, I felt that way when I saw his first Columbia episode, too. So um here, this one with Hitchcock, um, as you're watching the The Lodger, the story of the London Fog, it really senses like, oh man, this guy's gonna do some great, great stuff.

SPEAKER_03 54:05

Yeah, no, it it and of course he obviously did. Yeah, obviously did. Oh the best aspect of this film, when there's a lot of great aspects, but the best aspects of the the film, the Lodger, a story of the London Fog, uh, is uh uh I think the cinematography, I I think it's uh uh it's just absolutely incredible. And I think uh that he clearly that's what he did extraordinarily. Well, he did a lot of things really well, but in that mid-career of his where he was just absolutely on a roll. Um by the way, you you can you can take the career of John Ford and and have it on the almost the exact same timeline as Hitchcock's. Uh they they had their early movies where they showed some promise, and then the middle the middle of their careers were just like where they absolutely took off and uh and then they declined uh on into the 70s. But uh the uh cinematography here uh is every bit as good as it is in vertigo, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 55:12

Um I'll let you say the cinematographer's name.

SPEAKER_03 55:14

Yeah. Oh no, oh no, I don't know. I'm not gonna attempt that. Not gonna try. I I'm just gonna say it's fantastic. Let's just say that. Um it's fantastic. Uh it's absolutely um it's as good as there as it is. I mean, I I think Kubik probably watched this movie and and said, Oh, I gotta do this with that guy's doing. Um, you know, I feel like that's what uh that's what we got going on. I think that the close-ups on their faces um was something uh you know, D.W. Griffith used that to a great effect earlier, but Hitchcock, I think, just absolutely mastered this. What what what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 56:00

Um, I think a lot of cinematographers in the silent era did a really great job because I I felt there was, you know, you can look back to to people like, you know, um directors uh like Fritz Lang and F. W. Murnau. Um their work with their cinematographers who I don't know by name is pretty incredible. But my thoughts are a little bit different because with movies like this, I don't think it's a cinematographer as much as it's a combination of the cinematographer, the production designer, and in some cases, the costume designer that really make it work. And I think if you have one only working well, it's not as good. Because when I think of that shot of the of the lodger um being, you know, revealed the the the landlady uh opens the door, it's not only how that is it's lit, but the way the costume design's got the scarf over his face and the actor, you know, doing his performance. Um there's another uh really great scene where the lodger is running away from a mob and he gets his and he's hand he's handcuffed and he's he gets himself caught on a fence and he's hanging from the fence. And some of the some of the angles look very typical, but there's a couple of angle shots that are just really incredible, but it's not just the shot as much as it's the shot, the performer, and the look of the fence that the production designer gave us. And I think that what a lot of people don't understand, especially since when you watch a movie, you know, uh the very first thing that comes up in the credits uh at the beginning of the movie, or one of the first things, or uh is a so-and-so film and it lists the director's name. It's not that person's film, it's the collaboration with all these people working together. And uh, and most directors will admit this um that uh without these certain people, the movie wouldn't be the same. I mean, how many times has Spielberg said that uh John Williams's music is 50% the success of uh Jaws, and then he gives a good deal the rest of the success to his editor Verna Fields. And so it's kind of the same thing here. I think the cinematography is really pretty incredible, and some of the best cinematography in anything Hitchcock's done. Um, but I also think it's it's the production design that he's lighting and the actors that he's lighting, and some of the costume design, especially the way the lodger is made to look when he first appears, and in that uh that night where he goes out for the night and then the landlady goes through his stuff. Um I think that that that it really is, this is really a case of a combination of some really talented artists working together for that common goal. Um and Hitchcock did a really, really great job in leading them uh to that common goal.

SPEAKER_03 59:10

Yeah, that's a very good point. I it's it's valid because uh if you look at uh say we as we're recording this, we the uh the Super Bowl was uh 48 hours or 48 hours ago. Uh the people are gonna listen to this a little later than that, but but you know, if uh if a head coach of a football team does has a lot of success, a lot of times they lose uh their offensive coordinator or their defensive coordinator, and they become a different team after that. Uh when you don't have that that same uh cohesion with somebody or that or or you have you hire someone that maybe doesn't have quite the same amount of skill. Uh certainly Hitchcock um suffered in his career after he uh stopped working with Bernard Herman, uh in which the Bernard Herman hadn't have anything to do with this film, but but uh you know he in most of his big films uh in the mid-part of his career, he was uh filming with uh Bernard Herman. And and once that collaboration ended, because Hitchcock got mad at him about one about something or other. I don't know if we'll ever really know exactly what it was, but uh they they had a falling out and and and um none of his movies were were as good. So um, you know, so it's it's there it yeah, what you said is is truly a a thing. Um you have all these things working together, and like you said, you've got the costume design working really well here, the set design working well here. The film is uh is sort of uh claustrophobic in nature. Uh and uh it's a it's a he's working with small sets, but I think that that works to the film's uh benefit to have uh smaller uh smaller sets.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:00

And uh smaller film, you know, he's just getting started out.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:04

Um and uh I mean he I I he's used he used small sets before. I mean rear window, um rope.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:14

Uh it works it works to good effect.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:17

Yeah, especially if you know what you're doing. And there's a reason why when award season comes along, that those movies that are seen as really special and get all the nominations, they don't just get best picture nomination, but they get like you know, eight or nine other nominations too, because they wouldn't be best picture if it wasn't for all these people's involvement.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:36

So many things aren't right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:38

And and so I feel like you know a lot of filmmakers uh they owe a lot to the people that they hire. But here's the thing a lot of people don't understand about directors is it's the director's job to hire the best people who can give them the best work. And a lot of people think, you know, um I'm an editor, so uh you get somebody who comes in and they think uh the director, you know, the great editing job. Uh the director was in charge of all that, and the director gets all the credit for it, not realizing that they probably had many conversations with the editor who's like, and you should maybe try this, or you should maybe try that. I mean, we we all know that you know Steven Spielberg did not come up with the theme for Jaws. And he actually thought the first time he heard it, he thought that uh John Williams was playing a joke on him. Um and this is a famous story. I'm not telling anybody anything new because John Williams created that score. Um, and that movie wouldn't be the same without the da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. You know, um, and I think that when you look at um a movie like this, like uh the London Fogg story, a story, or I'm sorry, the Lodger, the story of the London Fogg. Now I'm starting to get confused with how to say it. Um it really does come down to a huge collaboration. Um, I don't know how the music fits in because I don't I know that the music on the one that I listened to wasn't probably the original.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:18

It probably isn't, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:19

Um, it might have been, you know, done off of the the music sheets, but I know somebody else obviously I think somebody else probably re-recorded it or whatever, or maybe they they they they redid it a little. Um so I don't know how the music came into play way back when. I don't even know if they played the same music with every uh with every screening, like at the different theaters. I'm not necessarily sure how that works, but um I can tell you this that everything that I'm looking at on the screen, including the script, I mean, if you had just changed out one of those people, yeah, you could have brought somebody in who couldn't have done a good job, but I really feel you probably would have had a very, very different movie.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:00

Yeah, you'd lose something. That's that's that's for sure. Uh the um uh do you have a a favorite uh do you have a favorite uh favorite scene uh in the film?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:12

I I actually um I would say the best moment in the film is that opening shot. It really draws you in right away. It's just a close-up of a woman screaming, but I don't know all the technicals, but he really did something elaborate with the lights and everything. He like laid her on some glass and a lights bottom here. Oh, it's something really strange, but it is just so effective as a shot that just draws you in immediately and says, Oh my god, this is gonna be good. Um, and so that that to me is the one thing that I remember uh most. Um, I really like the entrance of the lodger into the uh, you know, when he knocks on the door and she answers it and she opens it up. Um, I really like the stuff that deals with the night that uh he goes out and then she then the landlady uh uh goes through his stuff. Um I think it's really, really interesting. Um I really think that the way they set up the Lodger to be guilty is really, really pretty interesting. Um, because most of I listen to a lot of podcasts when I did this for my website. It's it's been a while since I did it from my website. Um, but I listened to a lot of podcasts, and a lot of people complain that they could they knew the lodger was innocent. They knew the lodger was innocent. And I just keep thinking to myself if you were watching in 1929, you wouldn't have known the Lodger was innocent because you hadn't seen this before. And I don't know how many times I have not enjoyed a movie because I can see how they're manipulating me to think this person's doing it when it's not this person, because now they're constantly. Conscious, so consciously doing that. I think that the audience is in the Lodger. When they went and saw the Lodger, if I had been watching it in 1929, probably would have sat down and not even known there was a mystery. I would have just assumed he's the bad guy. And we're just going through all these scenes with the bad guy. And then when the twist turns out he's not the bad guy, spoiler, sorry. Uh I would have been like, oh my God, I wasn't even thinking that. Because it's just set up so perfectly in every element. And that night that he goes out, we don't see what happened. I mean, we don't really ever see him do what he's supposed to be doing, but they just set it up so perfectly. Um, as well as other things too, like the misleads of her, you know, uh him having a relationship with the girl, and now you're like thinking, oh, they're trying to mislead me. And well, of course they're not, because you know, he turns out not to be guilty, but spoiler alert again. Um, but uh I just really thought that that whole night with the woman going into his room, and of course, that's all stuff we've seen before, too, where now it looks like he's gonna get home and catch her. We kind of know that that's not going to happen, and I don't think that's a spoiler alert because I think that you're gonna know it. Um, but in 1929 you wouldn't have because you wouldn't have seen this a hundred times before. Like now I use every television show has done an episode where somebody almost gets caught. Um and so when I think of my favorite things, I think back if I was watching 1929, uh, these things would have really, really worked on me. But the stuff that works on uh 2026 audio uh movie go or me um is that opening shot that just if I if I when I get to make my feature, which we are trying to do, um I hope I can get a shot as good as that shot somewhere in my movie.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:02

Yeah, that that that sounds great to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:04

Uh I was a wall that was a long way around to get to that, huh?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:08

Yeah, no, it's fine. Uh I uh I think uh this movie is an awful lot like one that followed it a few years later, uh called M with Peter Lorry Lori, which which uh uh it was a Fritz Lang movie. And uh, you know, of course, uh spoiler alert on this one, uh you know, Peter Lorrie is guilty, but uh but uh but you see this mob justice thing happening, and uh and it seems to be uh slightly more powerful here than the the Fritz Lang M movie, uh because uh obviously of uh certainly of the ambivalence of his innocence. Um and uh but when you see him uh handcuffed uh and stuck on that wall, and the people are coming after him, there's about a four-second interval there where you just absolutely want to cry out for the guy, you know, and like uh have you ever seen anything like that before in any other movie?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:15

I don't think I've ever seen a guy, and it's just it's an amazing way. No, I'm not talking about the the mob mentality, I'm talking about him being caught with the handcuffs stuck to that fence, and there's no way he can get away, and he's just hanging there while the mob is attacking him.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:32

Yeah, as close as I can come is is uh just somebody that ran into an alley uh and there's a brick wall.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:41

Big difference between a brick wall and hanging, you know. Uh there's something about hanging on that on that post there of that that that wall uh instead of just standing near it, you know, because uh one could think it would be easier to just get beaten up uh while you're standing and then while you're laying down on the ground, as opposed to sitting there as a target uh uh uh you know while you're hanging. You know.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:11

Well he's he's helpless in this situation. Absolutely. If you're caught with a brick wall behind you, you can fight.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:17

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:18

You can at least hang in there, he can't fight.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:20

Yeah, yeah. You you you can you can at least uh even if even if you are losing the fight, you can at least hold your hold yourself and and you know you can touch your face and protect something, you can protect part of your body at least slightly. Um, you know, even if people are kicking you in dirt and punching you, you can at least protect yourself to a extent. But yeah, you there's something about hanging on that. I know the answer question is no. I I can't recall a scene quite like that. Uh it's it's it's jarring, and and when you see it, it's just uh I didn't count the seconds. I'm thinking it's about four seconds where you you the people are coming and he's just uh sitting there like a pinata, basically.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:09

Oh, he he's there longer than four seconds. There's a great close, there's a really great shot of him that's close on him, and you can see the bars and everything. But there they it it's probably like 15 seconds.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:19

Is it that long? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:20

I yeah, he's he's there for a long time, never seen any anything like that. And and that is something I'm like, I'm surprised. I have never seen stolen in another movie. I've seen I mean you see so much stolen in movies that people like you know the one that really always bugs me is uh I I really dislike the scene in the untouchables with the baby carriage because so many people give DePama so much credit for that. And that was stolen from a silent film called Battleship Demkin, and nobody knows it. Right. Um but um I I really really like if I ever had a movie, I I don't have any uh movie ideas uh with this kind of scene in it, but if I ever came up with a movie idea and I was able to make a movie where the guy had to be trapped, I would I would rip this this right out of this movie. I would rip it off. I would tell everybody proudly I got this from uh the larger story of the London fog because it is such a great idea that I can't believe nobody's ripped this off. So, you know, and and and put this out to whoever's listening right now. If you know where it's been ripped off, let me know because I want to check out whoever at the guts to rip this off.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:31

I just haven't had a I just haven't had I don't have an inkling of any time where it's been replicated.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:37

Uh the when it comes to the mom mentality, this is another thing that you don't really see anybody do. Um, and I'm kind of curious to know how you feel about this is when we find out that he's innocent, it's not another character in the movie. It's some character we've never seen, never met, and never will meet because we're only going to hear about it over the phone that the real killer's been caught in the act. And generally, you know, there's a twist where one of the other characters did it, or something like that, but they don't do that here. And I'm kind of curious, do you feel ripped off that we that you didn't get uh to see the the the bad guy and see him get discovered? Or how'd you feel about that? Because I got a very specific feeling.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:20

No, I didn't I didn't feel ripped off at all. I I I thought uh that it's uh it's a lovely ending, and uh I even like how the title card uh says every what does it say every story must have an ending or something like that?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:36

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:37

Yeah, I I even like that part. Uh but no, I didn't feel ripped off at all. I I thought it was uh uh I I I I thought that it was something that is uh it brings you back to Earth, so to speak, in a sense that you're you're at you're at a you're at a fever pitch when he's uh stuck on that wall. And and then as things uh uh as things unwind, um you it's like okay, you know, I can feel settled down as I'm losing you know, of course I uh if you're leaving the movie theater in 1927, you can feel okay, uh you can breathe a sigh of relief. Um no, I didn't feel ripped off at all. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:29

I I'm kind of like mixed because and one one uh one aspect I don't like it at all because I'm like, wait a minute, you're not gonna tell us who who did it, yeah. You know, I mean, but I think that's because that's what I'm used to. Is we've I've grown up becoming, you know, used to movies, giving me a twist where we get not only do we get the villain, but it happens to be somebody that's involved in the story. But then there's the other side of me that kind of understands because it's not important who did it, it's just important that we've misjudged this guy and everybody's misjudged this guy. He's actually innocent. And it's also a little bit more real life because in real life it would most likely be somebody who has nothing to do with him. Because what are the odds that it would be one of the people that he runs into? You know, so I I really am kind of mixed because I totally understand why it's done and why it works, but a little piece of me wishes that I could have at least experienced uh, you know, somehow the capture had been incorporated into the story somewhere. It doesn't, it doesn't ruin the movie for me in the least. I just it it's it was a very odd choice for him to do. And I've never seen anybody do that where it's like he's innocent because this other person did it, and but we're not gonna show you that person, we're not even gonna tell you who that person is, we're just gonna say another person did it.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:02

I think uh the one of the aspects of that that makes it work, though, is that is that if you uh we we think uh I know my I know for myself, I I tended to believe all along that he was guilty. Um and uh of course I I'm trying to get into my frame of mind the first time I saw it, but I it's been a long time since that happened. But I uh but at the same time, if there were another character that were he were that were associated with the film, you might become suspicious of that character. And then that's uh that I think in effect uh helps it work. Uh, there's a lot of times in a movie uh the that uh let's say like the fugitive with Arison Ford, uh pretty perfect example. You you've got his friend uh that helps him out and and uh you don't suspect him at all until the till toward the end of the movie. And then you're like, wait a minute, this all makes sense, you know. Uh you know, um I think that you can put two and two together if there were another character in the film. Uh, and I think the absence of that makes uh makes you believe more in in the lodger's guilt. Um and uh and I think um that it's possible that viewers would would suspect the other guy in the film was responsible. So I I think that worked to the good of the film, but but I I can understand where you're coming from on your the guy on the left, the the guy on the left side of your left shoulder tapping you say, Hey, what happened here? Uh, you know, but I kind of like the guy on the right here on your right shoulder that's tapping you saying, No, it's all good, buddy. We we got it. It's good. Um, that's that's how I feel. Those are those are my exact feelings. Uh, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:58

I don't I I'm mixed because one part of me says, ah, that should have been done this way. We should have known who it was. But the other part of me says, I'm not I'm not completely missing it because uh ultimately it's not what the story's about. The story's about this guilty guy that um everybody is uh seeing as guilty because the the the innkeepers are are seeing him as guilty. Yeah um the cop who I feel like sees him as guilty more out of his jealousy than anything else. Um and and we, the audience, at least in 1927, that was the year, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:37

In 1927.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:40

Um we would have seen him as guilty. I I I don't know if the audience today is gonna see that. They may say, oh, it's too obvious he's guilty, he's not. Um, but uh in 1927, I think 100% I would have been sold. This is guilty, and this is a movie about watching the villain work um until we found out he wasn't. So I think I would have totally fallen into it. Um, and so we're misjudging it's all about misjudgment and and and jumping to conclusions and not understanding, and and and that's what the story's about. And all you need to know is he was innocent. But once I I just think there's a part of me that's been conditioned to always get that twist, you know, where we find out who really did it. Um, because I can't think of another movie or even a book or any story where that doesn't happen. So this is kind of like a very unique thing that I'm not used to. And in that case, you know, now I'm talking myself to even liking it a little bit more because it's not giving me what everything else gives me.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:41

Maybe it was one of the innkeepers, and then yeah, they would pull the head, the the mask off and say, and I would have gotten away with it too.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:48

If it well, you know, it could it could have very easily been uh uh the husband uh because you know he is out on Tuesday night all night. Yeah, that's the night that it happened.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:01

Yeah, I wanted I want to talk about something else before we uh wrap it up. The um uh the the the film was remade five years later with the same uh same person in the lead. Uh what what uh I that's something I literally just found out yesterday and I was so mad because I I didn't have enough time to to view the remake uh from 1932. Have you seen that one?

SPEAKER_02 1:20:29

I have not seen that one. I was aware of it and then totally forgot about it, but I remember reading about it. Uh was it only five years later?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:39

Yeah, 1932. Same story, uh, directed by uh Maurice Elve. Yeah, and uh and then of course it was uh also redone in uh 1944 uh uh as uh uh directed by John Brom and starring uh Merle O'Bron, a big star.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:01

What was what was the oh is is it was it this movie The Phantom Fiend?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:07

Uh yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:08

I'm looking at the IMDB page.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:10

Landlady suspects that her new uh yeah, they might have called they might have called it that too.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:15

Uh might have the original original title of the Lodger. No, I'm gonna have to look I'm gonna have to look this up.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:21

Yeah, yeah, it's uh it's something uh it's um for us. This is our homework uh after we recorded it.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:30

And you want to know something when I when I originally uh wrote my review way back when I betcha my intent was to do that one because I'm sure I I'm pretty sure because I there were a couple of remakes. There was another one, I forget that it was called Something Else that they actually asked Alfred Hitchcock if he wanted to do and he didn't want to do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:50

Um so but this this intrigues me because it's the same uh same guy, and I'm looking at the poster, and it looks like they're dressing him in the same way.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:03

Yeah, and he was still, I mean, obviously five years older, but you know, that's not that much. Um, and uh and certainly uh in uh a talkie would would make it slightly different. It was uh redone also in 1944. Uh in in a version that I that I have seen, um, you know, with it's uh stars uh Merle Albron in the in the female lead and a lesser uh known actor, albeit a good performance uh by Laird Krieger, and uh also the great George Sanders. Uh it's been quite a while since I've seen The Logic. Of course, anything George Sanders is in is probably worth a look. I love George Sanders. He has one of the best voices uh that uh ever ever recorded in film, in my opinion. But uh I uh uh it was redone two other times, uh most recently, I think in 2009 or something, but uh a bad the the I didn't see that one and and it gets bad reviews, so I I didn't bother with it. But I knew about that one and I knew about the 1944, but I did not know until just last night about the 1932 version, and I've gotta see it now, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:23

So it's one of those things that's just you know uh yeah, I'm looking for I'm looking uh for reviews on it. I found one here on Fariety. The print is really small on my computer screen. The Lodger is a candidate for American exhibition. Oh, it's nothing. Uh, but the the type is really small. I can't read it. Uh intrigued now on what this could possibly be.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:49

Yeah, yeah. I think it's just uh a chance for them to cash in on an opportunity with uh sound uh being involved this time, uh, which actually was a thing. Um, there were a lot of films in the 20s that were remade in the 30s uh with sound, and there were a lot of movies in the 30s remade in the 40s uh with uh a score with because most movies in the early 30s didn't really have scores. So it's fairly common to remake a 40 a 30s film in the 40s with a score and a 20s movie in the 30s with sound.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:25

So I'm looking at this review on the motion picture picture herald. Um give me a second because it's really small. The Lodgers production that should enhance the reputation of the British of British pictures in America. It presents a well sustained mystery based on story which, if not entirely, it's really small, that's all I can read, but it looks like it's got a decent review.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:57

Yeah, yeah, it it scores well on letterbox, or not well, but it it scores at 3.4 3.5.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:03

I wish I could zoom in on this.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:05

Yeah, yeah. No, it's uh um I I'm going to have to watch it. And and uh but for those that haven't seen uh the original The Lodger, a story of the London Fog, uh it's definitely on the list to uh it should be on your list to watch if you haven't seen it yet. Now uh hopefully if you're still listening to this, um we didn't spoil anything. Um but but uh if you have seen it, uh believe me when I tell you, it's a it's it's a worthy venture to see it on the big screen if you get a chance. Uh if you can convince your local theater operators to uh to do so. Uh anything else that uh we you the you want to say about the the Lodger, Mark?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:56

No, not really. I just think it's one of those movies that I think more people should see, uh especially if you're a Hitchcock fan, because it really gives you a look at what he was capable of really early in his career. And it's like the seeds to what he's gonna grow to be as a filmmaker. Now, I I would put it up there pretty highly, in my opinion, with some of his best movies. But when I say that, you have to understand that my favorite movies by Hitchcock are mostly his lesser-known ones or lesser remembered ones. I mean, I love the birds, I love uh Psycho, but to me it's it's always been about like rope and uh lifeboat and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:44

Those are so good.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:45

And rope rope is but and those are movies that people know, but they don't talk about when they talk about Hitchcock.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:52

Yeah, rope is is uh it's so different.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:56

Uh it's uh it's it's and ropes rope's one of those movies where I get tired of hearing this from people because now we get the single shot films, um, like Birdman and uh and that war film was in 1917 or whatever it was. Um and seamless, absolutely seamless. Uh there's you know where they put the edits so that it looks like a single shot and how they did it digitally and all that. Whereas when you're watching Rope, which is a single shot movie done way before these other movies, uh you can see where the uh the edits were made. Because Jeremy, because uh film film cameras only held, I think, 11 minutes worth of film at a time, so everything had to be 11 minutes, and then then they'd have to cut, but they wanted it to look like a single. So what they would do is the camera would like move in on somebody's back and it would go to black, and then it would it would uh it would come out uh somewhere else, so it looked like it was still a single screen. That's a good observation. So it would go in on somebody's back. And then it would come away from that person's back. And so they would take the camera, they'd they'd move it into somebody's back, they'd yell cut, they'd put a new real film in there, they put the camera back on the person's back, and then they'd pull away, kind of thing. And you can tell what they're doing. So I you know, I understand people are gonna be like, well, it's not as good as Birdman, and it's like, yeah, this was all those years back. You gotta give the man credit. Not only that, who cares? It's I I loved Birdman, but uh this is a uh uh uh Rope is just a really, really great, great film.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:34

Yeah, and it and it it's truly crop claustrophobic. And so yeah, that that that movie is just absolutely off the chain claustrophobic. Uh uh, you know, you it's it's just really fantastic. Yeah, for people that haven't seen Rope, yeah. You know, you should you should go you should see that right away as well. You know, so yeah, don't waste any time watching Rope uh because it is it is uh or before you watch Rope, I mean you you you gotta see it.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:03

Um well right a right away they need to watch The Lodger Story of the London Fog first.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:12

Yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly. Um, you know, I I uh watch every Hitchcock movie, really, to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:19

Uh matter of fact I feel like I feel like if they take anything away from this conversation, if they take one thing away from this conversation, it's that the title of the movie is The Lodger, a story of the London Fog, and that's the one you want to watch.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:34

Yeah, yeah, that's it. That is absolutely true. Uh and uh the funny thing is, uh well, you know what? I'll I'll tell you off offline actually, because I I I don't want to give something away. But um, in any case, um I um uh you know Mark, tell them about your website again.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:53

So it's called Underexposed Cinematic Treasures um at Underexposed Cinematic Treasures.com, uh, where I recommend underseen and unseen movies, basically movies that I love um but not enough people have seen, maybe haven't even heard of, or maybe have heard of, just thought it was going to be terrible and didn't see it. But let me trust me, if it's on my website, you want to see it. I also have a celebrity page that uh, you know, when we go to events and stuff, we we ask uh filmmakers and such, sometimes authors and musicians, uh for recommendations that they want more people to see. So we have a page for that. And I also have a fan page, so if anybody's interested in uh recommending uh a movie, I just asked for a four four uh four-sentence uh review that's uh that's well written and uh just four sentences. If you go to the page for the uh the fan recommendations, you'll see what what I'm looking for. And then you can you yourself can recommend a movie. Um it doesn't it doesn't have to be a movie that I like, I'm not gonna judge that whatsoever, because that page is not about me, it's about uh the reader and their recommendations. So underexposed in meta treasures.com.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:20

And I said, no, you take the shop from the top of the stairs, looking down. I said, why that? I said, because the hostess is the top of the stairs, and everybody coming in will be seen coming through the doors up the stairs and be greeted in the foreground but what is more important when you choose a location, it must not be a background to me. The goings on in that location must be involved in the story.