Paths of Glory (With Shaun Rose)

In this episode, we talk with filmmaker Shaun Rose about the Stanley Kubrick antiwar film, Paths of Glory. We talk about the plot, themes, cast, and of course cinematography of this Kubrick classic. Click and listen! 🎬🎬🎥🎥

Be sure to subscribe and review the podcast! 

Check out Shaun’s YouTube channel! https://youtube.com/@shaunrose8146?si=UR5a79ZijXFrMmGv

Thanks for listening! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello, and welcome to Cinema Chat with David Heath. And uh I am your host, David Heath, and we talk on this podcast about movies from every era and just about every genre. And um, and we are excited to talk to you today um about a film from 1957 from a director that you may have heard of, Stanley Kubrick. Um uh he directed a movie called Paths of Glory uh from 1957, and um we are pleased to bring on uh Sean Rose, who has made a couple of films himself. Um, and we have been on the podcast uh uh Sean, is this five times?

SPEAKER_01 0:48

I think so.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Okay. I think so. Okay. I've I lose track with my guests sometimes. I I have a lot of regular. I have about six or eight guests that have done more than two, and I then once you get to three, I've started I start to lose track of which ones we talked about. Um well Sean, uh how are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:11

I'm doing pretty good. Um good uh be back on the uh the show again. And the the always chatting with you is you know, it's always fun. Look forward to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Yeah, and we have we made a uh sort of a uh sort of an agreement together uh last time we talked uh about doing Kubrick films, um, and maybe just going through the Kubrick library and we talked about the killing last time. Uh but Sean, uh you have made a couple films yourself. Tell us a little bit about them and where people can find them.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Um I've made well six feature feature-length films and a couple shorts. Two are not available on YouTube. Uh the remaining uh short films and feature-length films are. In 2018, I came out with uh Upstate Story, which was uh something I had a biographical uh version of my life at that point. Uh very low budget. I made it for under$500. Um then I made a documentary called Making and Unmaking, which came out in 2020, which dealt with the problems I had making Upstate Story and this lengthy production process. And then uh in 2023, I came out with a sequel to Upstate Story, which continued the story of the original character from Upstate Story.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Yeah, and uh and it's uh I remember watching Upstate Story uh and thinking, is he talking about is this him? Um I remember I I watched that when you first sent it to me. Um, but and uh of course it's on YouTube, uh Sean Rose S H A-U-N. And I will uh put some links. Uh you have an actual YouTube channel.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Yes, yep.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Okay, okay. I'll I'll uh I'll uh put a link to in the show notes uh so people can access uh your your films and uh uh we are excited to talk about uh someone that you described as your favorite filmmaker. Uh we're going to talk about uh stay in the Kubrick and the uh making of the film uh Paths of Glory. Well, well, not necessarily the making so much, but but we'll talk about uh Paths of Glory. Uh and uh I'll ask you first, Sean. Uh when did you first see Paths of Glory? And what were your first thoughts? And what do you think now?

SPEAKER_01 3:56

Oh, geez, I think I first saw Path of Glory. It had to have been when I was in school. Um so I would think at least geez at least 15 years ago or so for the first time. And I I had seen other Kubrick uh like later Kubrick movies before that, and um I remember seeing that movie uh just thinking to myself, you know, it it's really interesting to, you know, see how his career what happened prior to, you know, uh some of his more prestige or his later films from like 2001 onward or Dr. Strangelove onward. And I watch it now and I still think it's very interesting to see, you know, how he was as a filmmaker prior to and compared to what he became, um, especially in a stylistic sense. Um but uh movie I I still think holds up very well, you know, when it comes to um military, you know, corruption and finding scapegoats and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Yeah, I matter of fact, I I watched an interview uh with I think I I don't know if I'm pronouncing right, uh Christiane Kubrick is his wife. And uh I yeah, okay, yeah, and who of course appears in the film. And um and she she said that there were a lot of uh of misunderstandings about Kubrick and that that a lot of people think that he was like a tyrant, and and he was a perfectionist, but evidently he, you know, at least according to Hershey, was not a tyrant and wasn't uh you know an angry fellow. Um and um but she also said something interesting, which I didn't really uh put it together, uh, but she said that um and she said that that uh that well she didn't indicate it was a misconception, um, but she said that ultimately Paths of Glory uh was about scapegoatism in general and and and the whole idea of of picking people uh to put the blame on for something and how terrible of a concept that is. And we see that in in every level, and you know, through government, through military, through um uh you know corporatism, it's like that too. You know, um, you gotta find some, you gotta find a fall guy, you know, when it comes to the um just the uh the the police um you know and and and the um judicial system, um, you know, there's three guys in a car, the guy that rats out the other two is get doesn't get in trouble, but the other two guys do get in trouble. That whole concept of of you know of of picking people to uh be the bad guy and to be the fall guy uh and how flawed that is. Um so essentially the the plot of Paths of Glory is um you know, of course, uh the you've got well, first of all, we'll tell you uh, you know, uh Kirk Douglas is our star of the movie, um, and Adolf Niju is uh is uh directory to general that goes to uh inferior, or not inferior, but uh uh he goes to uh general below him and says uh hey I uh I want it I want it the I want us to take the anthill and this is the French ar army. Um and uh he says, well, let's take the anthill, which is of course uh you know a uh heavily guarded German uh area, and um it basically doesn't go go over it doesn't go over well, and so ultimately there's gotta be a scapegoat. And and of course, why would why would uh the gen why would the general or the colonel uh be the scapegoat? Why why not just make it you know three low-level privates? And so that's basically our our story. And uh and so let's go too much a suicide mission. Yeah, it's a suicide mission. That's right. That you know, that's the other part of this, is it's not just scapegoatism, it's it's it's treating people like they're numbers. Um you know, and you're going to uh you know, they even break down percentages of of loss that are that they're willing to accept the percentages of loss. Um and did that did that does that take you away? Because I don't remember that from watching it the first time. I didn't remember them breaking down percentages of loss. What what is what what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 9:42

Um when what's that guy's name? Uh it wasn't Menju, it was uh Ralph Meeker, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Or no, no, no, no, oh no, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

No, um the uh um oh why he had the scar on his cheek.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Yeah, yeah. Uh what wait, which one are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 10:03

The one with the scar on his cheek. He uh went to the front lines to go ahead and boost Morel prior to the endhill.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Um yeah, and that and why why did I lost why did I lose his name? Um but yeah, no, I I yeah, he he was uh uh you know, yeah, he was just the total um not the villain, but he was uh a villain in this, and you know, Manju uh is the is the villain that smiles at you and then stabs you in the back. But you know, but you've got you know this other general that just um he he he all he cares about is getting glory for taking the anthill, which of course they didn't do. Um and since they didn't do it, well, okay, well, we didn't do it, so we're just gonna go ahead and blame other people for it. But what were you going to say about him?

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Well, in the the the first scene in the movie is when uh the idea of taking over the anthill was brought up uh by Menju to the one with the scar on the face, and he's like, that's a suicide mission, you know, there's a lot of people are going to die.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

I heard about my men, and then uh Menju brought up the idea about him receiving a promotion, like another star or whatever, and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

George McCready, by the way. I I don't know why I couldn't think of his name. Yeah, and then George McCready, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

And then uh after that's brought up, he kind of changes his tone. He's like, Oh, well.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

And so then he goes down through the trenches and to go ahead and quote unquote boost morale for these guys, and then he runs into the folder with uh shell shock. Yeah, and uh tells them like get him out of here, get him transferred, and bring someone in here that is more capable than him.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Give some get give me someone that wants to kill a German.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Yeah, yeah. The guy is too broken. He's a coward, he's uh no such thing as the guy is mentally destroyed because of the horrors of war, but he's a coward and uh just stuff like that disgusted me with the movie. Yeah, uh eventually he he uh makes his way to Kirk Douglas and uh he brings up the idea of taking over the hell. And uh Kirk Douglas is like uh you know that you understand the condition my men are in. You know, we and uh he's like, Oh, you don't have confidence in your men? Maybe we should replace you.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

And uh that that's when uh Kirk Douglas said, I I'm the best one to leave my men. What what casualties are we looking at? And then the guy just listed off like a percentage of this, you know, going through no man's land, dying, and it it yeah, that's that's when he went through like the statistics and like it like it was nothing. Yeah, like all these men dying just talking about that is nothing because he he wants his promotion, you know. He that's basically what it boils down to.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Yeah. It's absolutely it's absolutely true, and I I um I going back to the the the guy it says shell shock, it reminds me of when George Carlin um uh I don't know if you ever heard his his him talk about the the term shell shock and and uh and how they changed it to uh to post-traumatic stress disorder. And and they they're by by changing the name of the condition, they're they think they're changing the condition. Um and um and it's like I don't think anybody can realize that. Like I have never been in battle. Um, I can't, I don't think anybody could realize what it's like to kill another man uh you know over land or whatever, uh, and or or by contrast, uh be you know just inches away from death because a grenade uh just landed right in front of you, but you were lucky enough to be a few feet away from where it went off. And I I I don't think uh anybody that's been involved with it or that's never been involved with it can really appreciate the circumstance of of war. And uh one of the one of the interesting things uh I is I thought that that that was a uh a statement of you know like you know, people that are involved with war, uh uh they often will come out of it feeling that way. Um I I know uh I probably know three dozen people um that have been labeled with post-traumatic stress disorder. Um uh and they don't ever really talk about it, but I I know they've been through it. Um so you know yeah, but World War I was was uh an MFR, you know, it was like uh um, you know, the trenches, you know, were just uh which by the way what uh it now technically here speaking, what do you think about the real feeling of those trenches in this movie? What what what what do you think when when you see these guys go through the trenches and you know you we've all seen movies that have unrealistic bombings and things like that that you know that aren't really happening? Um, but as I understand it, they had the these were real explosives that they were dealing with, but even when they weren't dealing with uh the explosives or the gunfire or whatever, just walking through those trenches is creepy, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Yeah, it's just very tight, very narrow. I can't imagine living in those situations under normal circumstances. I mean, could you imagine you know being in a worse scenario having to worry about add that to that, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Yeah, yeah, but world war one was was no joke. Um it it was just it was no joke. Um, you know, uh and I not that world war two was, but but I I think that uh world war one was was just scary stuff. It was when I think it was when modern warfare uh met uh old style warfare. So we in other words, uh there weren't very many protections um for people, but we had you know the explosives and and the ability to just absolutely cream people. Um and and and uh and it wasn't until World War II where where people where soldiers were a little more protected and and of course the the bombs got a little bigger, obviously. But but it it's just it's it which uh by the way that'll be another uh um if we continue on with our series uh talking about Kubrick, we'll talk about the bomb later in another movie, obviously. Yeah, that'll be a fun one. But yeah, but this is just uh uh uh it is a simple movie, but it is so thick and layered with uh all kinds of because in one way, you know, we've got the colonel, uh Kirk Douglas, who is not really a hero. You know, he is somebody that is accepting the system because he himself is getting for forward in the system. He's a colonel. Why would he, you know, he yeah, he he pounds his fist in the movie at his superior, but and he yells, but he's gonna at the end of the day do what he need good do what he needs to do to keep going and keep marching on open intended. Well, yeah, it what do you think about that the whole thing? It is he because I don't really see him as a hero. Um he's uh he's somewhere in the middle. What do you about what about you?

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Well, he's a soldier, but he's it's nuanced. He he believes in being a soldier, he just doesn't believe in like the corruption. Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Yeah, I feel like in a way, you you you know, you you know, fifty 15 years later or 14 years later, you could see dirty Harry Callahan be not the same guy, but but but almost the same guy. You know, like I am this system is BS. I don't think we should have to deal with this system the way it is. Why should we let criminals off the hook um just because of my tactics? Um, and and and then and this is kind of a a new uh nuanced way of looking at it, but but that's how uh Kirk Douglas is. By the way, when I watch Kirk Douglas in a movie, it takes everything I have, not to say Michael Douglas.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

I that's I mean, you know, that there is no denying paternity there, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

It's it's just hilarious, yeah. Because it's just you know, Michael Douglas is the one that's been with uh been making movies, you know.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

I mean, it's just kind of funny, but you know, in our more immediate time period compared to Kirk Douglas, but the the facial uh politeness of their their voice Kirk Douglas was just more narrow and more chiseled with his facial features, I feel.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

Yeah, I think you got a point. Uh he he is a slightly tougher guy, um, albeit not completely, um, you know, but he is a slightly tougher guy. He was in a movie, he was even in a movie called Tough Guys. Uh was it was it called Tough Guys with Bert Lancaster? Um I think it was yeah he made a movie in like the 80s uh when they were both old and uh called Tough Guys. It's it's kind of funny. My dad really liked it. Um, but what do you think overall about the performances of of of the three of the three main guys in the film? Um, you know, the the the and then we'll we'll get down to to the privates that were uh uh then got themselves in trouble. What what are your thoughts on let's start with Kirk Douglas? Uh what do you think about his performance?

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Well, yeah, I thought that he gave a very, very good performance, you know, considering you know he he was a soldier, you know, he Russ in such a situation, you know, I mean he he was active in that anthill in uh invasion, if you want to call it that, and seeing all those men die around him and uh the the way he took the news about them being asked to go ahead and take the ant hill, the way he defended the soldiers and the courtroom scenes, especially, or like the when he was trying to make a case for all these soldiers not to be executed, like everything he tried to go ahead and bring forth was just shot down.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Yeah, there was everybody he the yeah, yeah, he everything was objected to and and the the what does that have to do with uh what happened? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you know, um yeah, exactly. Uh it it because you're you're you're you're you're telling me he's he's a coward, and I'm telling you he's not a coward, which by the way, um the the we'll we'll get to the other the three soldiers in a minute, but but those those three soldiers, what were they charged for? They were charged for cowardice uh in the enemy's face. But guess one thing we never never saw in the whole film? Is the enemy. We never saw the enemy's face. So what are we even talking about here? Um and you know, cowardice in the enemy's face. And uh it, I think that I think it's a twist of irony that we don't see the enemy here, and um, and it and it lends to the coldness uh of war because these people aren't people, they're just numbers. It goes for the other side too. They're they're they're just numbers, you know. Uh you know, it's casualties, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

They're a means to get a job done.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Yeah, exactly. That's all no matter what the cost is. Efficiency. Efficiency, yeah. Just just like in the corporate world, um, you know, we want to be efficient, and of course, um being efficient means every you know, sometimes you you cut people, you know, and you get leaner. And you know, like a football team, you you know, you hey, we gotta be efficient, we gotta pay people less. Um, and so we can have better, you know, we can have more good players on our team. It's always this this uh uh this thing that they that they deal with.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Um and veteran players, especially. I mean, it doesn't matter how many years of replay that they have, how many Pro Bowls, all pro selections, how many we got a salary cap, dude.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

We gotta let you go. We gotta get lean, you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Yeah, you're you're you're 35 years old now. We're not gonna pay you a little.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

We I I live in Kansas City, and there's a legendary um there's a legendary uh uh guy that really should be in the Hall of Fame, um, but he never won a Super Bowl, so that's why he's not uh his name is Tim Grunhard, and he was a center for 10 years for Kansas City. And uh and he he uh he owns part of a radio station here in town, and he goes a regular guest, and he said, When when when you get in the league, the first thing they think about when they draft you is how they're going to replace you. You know, and that goes for military too, you know. They are trying to replace you, they got you four years, they're gonna figure out how uh they gotta come constantly turn turn that wheel. Um, so there's another side to it in the in the in the sense that they feel like they do have to be efficient. It's just that and and you do have to be efficient, but you but to treat these people like like their their cattle is just too much, and that's what we see happening in and paths of glory, and that and I and I think to uh you know extremely large extent that's what it was like in World War One. Um, you know, but I matter of fact, they only uh not to get too political, but uh I think World War II might be the only uh war uh that really mattered uh uh a whole lot, you know, in in in modern times.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

Um, you know, but um yeah, I I think in the grand scheme of things, I think that uh World War II was a necessary fight, I think, for so many countries to eliminate some of the necessary evils that we really had in the world.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Yeah, I won't get too far into it.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Yeah, no, yeah, but I I you know, but it it it it it it's there's some things that are just facts, and that you know you you you don't um you know we we you know we we got in entrenched in in World War II um because we didn't really have a conclusion to World War I. And um, I mean we thought we did, but the Germans obviously did not think they did that wasn't closure to them.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

Hitler and you know everybody was very bitter about that loss.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Yeah, they sure were, they sure were, and we we had life changing or uh monumentally world-changing events because of it. Um but you go to um uh Paz Gloria, and then and then um of course George Mc McCready uh had uh a long career. Um he was he played in a lot of TV shows after this, and he was in a lot of films before this. Um and uh I I had I thought that his performance was um was excellent um because I I feel like what what you were talking about, uh like when he kept saying um are you ready are you ready to kill a German? You know, and we're like, oh my gosh, you know, and he just did it with such uh pizzazz. Um you know, uh it's like, oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Um you know, he did it well, you know, he was trying to boost uh soldiers well, you know. It just I think that him just going there to the front lines or being down there in the trenches, you know, was something he probably should have done considering the circumstances, even though the circumstances were really, you know, evil and you know to benefit him largely in the long run.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Yeah, ultimately this was just a an unnecessary thing to do, and um, you know, um, but uh of course you've got Adolph uh Menju, who to me, I never say his name right. Mingju, I I I don't have I never say his name right, but he was just uh absolutely fantastic in this. Of course, he um he's basically Claude Rains when when Claude Rains isn't available. Am I right?

SPEAKER_01 29:25

Kind of feels like that. He's very uh he comes off as very charming, yeah kind of manipulative. He was very manipulative in uh Path of Glory, especially.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Not only not only to the um what what what's his name? You just mentioned his name.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

Uh George McCready.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

Yeah. He was very manipulative towards him in the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

And then later on, uh when he was talking to Kirk Douglas about I can see you were doing this and this, so you could go ahead and possibly replace like it was greedy here. Like uh yeah, it's like and Kirk Douglas got really upset with it.

SPEAKER_00 30:17

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

He just he just always seems so upbeat in the scenes where he's just being such a manipulative, you know, such a jerk.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

Yes, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

If that makes any sense, it just seems very chipper about how he can control things and he he he relishes his power, he enjoys it too much.

SPEAKER_00 30:39

And and non-confrontational, which for a uh you know, a decorated general, it's hard, uh that's probably why he is a decorated general, because he he he probably we don't we don't get into that in the film, but he probably did a couple of things uh early on as an officer that got him promoted to general, and and he didn't make waves. And instead he just smiled and patted people on the back and um you know and before he stabbed them. Yes, yes, uh yeah, uh he he was playing the game, you know, and ultimately, um ultimately you know that's what Kirk Douglas is doing too, playing the game, except he was um doing you know playing a fair game. And you know, but I just I just think it's just uh it it you've got these performances that are just absolutely uh absolutely fantastic. Well what uh uh you know what uh as far as the as far as the uh courtroom scenes, um, you know it's funny because I just did an episode uh on a few good men uh a few weeks ago. Oh actually just yeah I just uh pushed it out a few days before we are talking, uh or a week before we're talking, but anyway. Um I I think it's a very it's a it's a very similar uh circumstance uh you know because you got this military tribunal and and and it's just inherently unfair, and you know, and you got these uh three guys uh and uh you know like we'll get to them, um, but they are just three poor sad sacks, am I right?

SPEAKER_02 32:36

Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

And so they just pick the three guys that just uh like, oh, hey, let's pick our victims. And um, you know, of course, one of them was uh uh our boy from uh the killing, uh Timothy Carey, who was the the really terrible racist, if you remember uh uh in the killing, he was the guy that was the racist that uh that ended up getting killed.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Um the horse from the race.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. And uh what do you what are your thoughts on his character? Because I I am just absolutely blown away with how good he was. Uh he turned on a his character turned on a dime in this movie. Um because he went from he went from thinking, I'm not going to I'm not gonna be here, I'm gonna figure out a way to get out of here, to you know, complete, complete uh uh complete sorrow and complete he gave up completely.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

Um and uh break down and he was uh like when he was marching alongside the uh the priest there, you know, he was like burying his head into the priest's shoulders and everything.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Crying and even the priest was like, Yeah, you're you're gonna have to you're gonna have to stand up. You're gonna you're gonna have to you're gonna have to get this uh um you know but he has the he has the one really funny line in the movie. Yeah, you remember what I'm talking about?

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Oh, when he goes away. Was it when they asked him uh why he was chosen because he wasn't uh socially acceptable?

SPEAKER_00 34:31

Oh well that that's that's a good line too. But what I was referring to is when when um when one of the guys says uh you see this cockroach here? This cockroach uh is going and is going to see my wife uh more than I will after today, and uh he's going to live and I'm not going to. And then uh um and then um the other guy just slow the cockroach and says, Well, now you've got the edge. You know it's it's the only really hilarious line in this movie, and and it's I think it's a a bit of comic relief that some people might have really needed while sitting in the movie theater.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

Um it is a very grim movie, it's very hopeless.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

Yeah, yeah, and of course, it's not the only hopeless movie um that Cooper could make, but um I although you know, when we'll get into it uh in the oncoming times, but but uh you know uh I think you can find uh some glimmer of hope in um you know in the in the mall, but and at least sort of a very small amount, maybe. Um but very small amount. Um, but um, you know, but uh there's some cheekyness to his movies, is all I'm saying. Um but yeah, and and in this movie, yeah, it's grim the entire time. Um you know, but it does have that that one funny scene that I just think is just absolutely hysterical when he does that. Well, problem solved. You're you're gonna beat the cockroach now. Um, but um the um um uh the the other two guys, you know, of course, yeah. They think about this now. Spoiler alert, everybody. Okay, if you haven't seen the movie, which um I think is possible, and all if you're listening to me, uh you might that's so this is the time where you might want to pause and go listen to or go watch the movie and then come back. Sean and I will still be here talking about paths of glory. Um, but although you have the one guy that you know isn't even awake while he's being executed. And what do you think about the the concept of him still being in an upright position because they've tied him down? What what does that look like to you? Because it was awful to me. Like, oh my goodness, what am I looking at here? Um don't even have the dignity to be able to fall.

SPEAKER_01 37:14

The whole idea of like them being executed was inhumane to me, but to take this guy and strap him up in a a stretcher to be shot was disgusting.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

It's unreal.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

It's unreal to be to to watch the guy still be stuck in an upright position, you know, why you know, and and uh they said, you know, if he's not alert, go ahead and pinch his cheek a few times so he's alert because they want him to be alert while he's being executed so he realizes what's happening.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

It's just disgusting. It's disgusting.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Yeah, they couldn't hold it for off for for 24 hours or whatever for him to wake up. Um you know, yeah, it it really the whole thing is just so you know foul and so stenched.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

Um you know, but do you you know that actor who that actor is though, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Oh, uh which one? Well, yeah, uh wait, who who what is he who is he?

SPEAKER_01 38:27

Turkle. He played the uh the guy at the bar in the shiny.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

Oh, oh, oh yeah, that's right. Yes, he was the bartender.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

So did you ever see uh Blade Runner?

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Uh you're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

I was like, that bone structure looks familiar. Yes. Because he has a very distinguished kind of bony, sunken face. I'm like, that face looks familiar. And I looked up, I'm like, yep, that's uh that's the bartender from The Shining, and that's uh Tyrell from uh Blade Runner.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Yeah, he kind of reminds me of uh if you ever saw Big Bane Theory, he kind of reminds me of the of uh of that um extra nerd that that ended up being kind of part of the show uh near the end, and uh I can't think of his name. Um, but um yeah, he kind of reminded me that because it was bone structure, like you were talking about. Um there's just yeah, it's just there's certain people that have that look uh that where their face droops down, kind of funny. It it really um you know, we're not making fun of it. It's just that's what it is, what it is.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

Yeah, but it's just funny.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

Yeah, it just uh some people just have that very distinguished face that you can recognize. I mean, we're talking about a movie from 1957, which the you know, Path of Glory came out, and 23 years later he was in the shining.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

Yeah, that's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

And then two years after that, he was in uh Blade Runner. Very recognizable face. I mean, even after all those years, he still had that very recognizable face about him.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Yeah, Kubri could have made Blade Runner too, by the way, I think. You know.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

Well, they did use some of the helicopter footage uh from um the shining for uh Blade Runner.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

Oh, okay. I guess I didn't realize that. I didn't know thought about that.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

Yeah, they use some of the the stock footage. Remember like the intro to the shining?

SPEAKER_00 40:35

Okay. Yeah. Okay. I do. I I I I I'm trying to place it in my head. I watched Blade Runner for the first time in a long time, about a year ago. Um, and and uh I um uh I think I know what you're referring to now, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

I but yeah, it's like right after Wilson Ford and the girl. There's like so many different edits to Blade Runner.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

It I I don't even know what's what.

unknown 41:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:06

No, it's true. It's true. There there are. Um, but I I just think that was a movie he could have made. Um, you know, uh, but uh you know, uh it's great the way it is. Uh but I'm just saying that he was very capable of making that movie himself. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Um it just seemed perfect for him, you know. He yeah, no, it's it's AI was a movie that he should have made himself, but Steve uh Spielberg made it for him, you know. I'm I'm going off on a tangent.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

No, it's okay. I do it all the time uh on here. I do it all the time. I you know, I you know, we we we were talking about football a minute ago, but I did bring it around. I did to my credit, I brought it around. Um, but um the the um now I I feel like the true star of this film we haven't really talked about very much. The true star is the camera, yes, which is often true with two bricks, but um what do you think in your brain, because I know you got a home run answer for this, in your brain, what is the difference between Paths of Glory um and other films when in regards to cinematography and you know and just camera? What do you what do you think about about that?

SPEAKER_01 42:38

I don't know when I watch Paths of Glory, I some of the in the trenches shot, like some of the footage of them trying to rush the animal kind of remind me of uh full metal uh jacket. Yeah, um just like the dolly work, you know, like the tracking cameras and stuff like that, which he became known for. The dolly work was just like moving along the side and just following these soldiers trying to rush this hill, and you see these explosions and you see soldiers collapsing, and yeah, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

It the the camera is the real star of this film, which uh you know, uh as I said, it it it happens a lot with in Kubrick films. Um it's just he uh you know, you know, someone else is credited for being the cinematographer, but we all I think we all know you know who the real cinematographer is here. You know, he's he he probably you know dictated everything when it came to that is that he was so good. And the quality of the film, uh the one thing uh that hasn't been brought up yet, and uh one of the things that hasn't brought up yet is the quality of the black and white. Right. Um, if this was a color film, I don't think it works nearly as well. No, I don't think so. It's not gonna be cold the same way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

It it fits the mood of the movie. Um I mean, even if this movie came out nowadays, I still think it would have been better in black.

SPEAKER_00 44:17

It'd be black and white, yeah. Yeah, it needs rebutton.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

Everything about this movie just is very dark. I don't think the color would have done it justice. Or if they did do color, maybe something along the lines of uh what um they did with like saving private ride or something like that, where they just bleached the hell out of all the colors and just kind of made it very giant.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Oh yeah. Oh no, I I I think I think there's color in there, but you just suck the life out of almost all the color.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Yeah, yeah, I know. I I I agree. Um, and one of the uh yeah, I I think I I think the dolly work uh is the thing I'm most impressed with, which um I I I think that's just what it's just it just it makes it so different. And another thing that's different about this this movie, um uh and we're we're you know, I'm calling it a war movie um because it it it is about a movie that's occurred during a war, but really it's obviously it's an anti-war movie. Um but I heard um a filmmaker, and forgive me for not remembering who it was, um, but I heard a filmmaker say about this movie. Um so I they he said every movie that sets out to be an anti-war movie has a really you know great thought in their brain, that they're they're they're thinking the right things, um, and their hearts in the right place, but every anti-war movie ends up becoming a war movie, and because here we we see a movie that is an anti-war movie that remains an anti-war movie, and it's not really a war movie, it just takes place during a war. And you know, and I and I think that um, you know, this this isn't saving private Ryan, and and this isn't uh I mean uh there's a list of there's a list of films uh hundred hundred long of movies that that show the horrors of war, but this one, Paths of Glory, uh is one where you don't think, oh, look at all these heroes. You know, there's no hero, you know, not really.

SPEAKER_01 46:42

No, there isn't.

SPEAKER_00 46:43

No, it's just it's bleak and grim. You know, we've used those terms, but it that that's what it is bleak and and grim. Um and of course, another thing that's really great about this uh is the is the screenplay. Um, you know, it's I think uh I it's written by Kubrick and he had two other writers with him that didn't really work with him any other time. But uh what are your thoughts on the screenplay?

SPEAKER_01 47:12

Mine, I I thought it was very well written. Some of the the the dialogue was, you know. Like the courtroom scene, you know, I I thought that that was especially well written.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

It really absolutely captured the yeah, the courtroom scene was definitely well written. I I I really I really love how it bothers me. What's that?

SPEAKER_01 47:39

It it it bothers me in a good way. It was good written, but it like the their the demeanor of so many of those people what does that have to do with this? Are there any witnesses to you falling unconscious?

SPEAKER_00 47:56

Yeah, it it it you know it's just uh it's it's it's really incredible. And I and I I think that like I think like I said that you know, we because of the fact that they peak picked these three guys that are just you know obviously low quality, um, but they picked those three uh you know, as if it that doesn't mean that they're not people and they didn't deserve to die, and we don't have any proof that they were cowards, you know, and that's the thing that that should stick with everybody is these guys weren't cowards, they were they were there, you know. You know, there's no coward in the trenches, you know.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

Well the one guy was blackballed by his superior because remember they did that night. Um what the hell was it like that? Uh they went out at night, remember the three of them?

SPEAKER_00 48:56

Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

He went ahead and was getting scared. He threw the grenade and fled.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

Yeah, he did do that. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

He ended up uh killing one of their own.

SPEAKER_00 49:14

Yeah. Yeah, we haven't talked about him. Yeah, we didn't talk about him. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He and and of course, he had to stand there and take it when the officer that was really the the you know the main problem, the officer had to be in charge of murdering him, basically. And um, and I and I think that that uh it was a terrible twist of irony for him to stand there and like, hey, you know, and and realize his commanding officer was the pro was the problem, but I'm gonna stand here and die, you know, the because of you. And and um, and not only that, you're gonna carry out the the punishment. That's a little it was a little unnerving, uh, to say the least. Um uh this uh by the way, it's worth noting that this movie was not released in France until 1972 because they can see why. Yeah, they really demonizes the French army and uh the French military, and they um I I guess finally allowed it to be shown, um, you know, for one reason or another. But um it's always it's always odd to me when I hear a movie is banned somewhere. It's like, oh, because we live in the states and you know they don't ban films. Like, oh yeah, like what are we talking about? Like, uh, what is banned? What's what what do you mean banned? Oh, you mean they won't show it at all? You know, and we don't think of Western civilization like that at all, but in fact, you know, there's censorship just about everywhere except here in the states. Um it's kind of funny. Um and uh let's see. Uh I'm trying to look at my notes here. What did I miss? Um, what does I I wrote this question down. Um and I and I kind of answered it earlier, but but I'll I'll hear your your uh answer for it. What does this say about humanity in general?

SPEAKER_01 51:44

I mean just look at Facebook, you know. Um people posting constantly, you know, my life is a mess because of this person, my life is a mess because of that person. Everybody's always looking for a scapegoat because it's not just the military, we we talked earlier about it being a thing, you know, which which is you know is highly acceptable. We're all I think society is always looking for a scapegoat when it comes to or most of us are always looking for a scapegoat when it comes to our own personal problems, our failures, or many of us were we are three cars, as well they're probably in the business. Okay with throwing anybody under the bus as a result of not taking ourselves accountable for our own actions or that's true.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

How many times in one's lifetime on average? I I would be curious, no one can ever write this down or or you know quantify the results or but what how many times do you think the average person says it's not my fault? Or it's not my job, those those four words, um, it's not my fault, or it's not my job. Um yeah, and and like when my when you know when my mom would would would say, Can you go do that for me? Well that's not my job. It's like, well, no, you're my kid. You you go you're gonna go do it. Um, you know, and uh and and it's just but it's not my fault is something that I I myself have said to my parents, I've said it to people, you know, that I was married to. I've said it to my kids, I've said it to my boss, I've said it to my people that worked for me. Um, I've I I've probably said it to everybody that I answer to. It's not my fault, don't blame me, you know. And it it's always somebody else, and and I and I know I'm not alone. I I think that there's billions of people that have lived that feel the same way a lot of times, and yeah, maybe we ought to do that a little less and stop blaming other people and just start being accountable for uh our own selves. And and and that's kind of what I was saying about you know uh Kirk Douglas, uh, you know, as as the colonel. And he's like uh um he he he's uh at his core, he's a very decent person, um, and he's principled, uh, he has a core of good values, but ultimately he's still following the system and doing what he needs to do. Um, you know, and uh uh you know, um, but I think one part of the reason why he does that in the movie uh is because he hears um what's going on in the hall. Um, you know, that he's you know kind of listening to what's going on with all those soldiers listening to um Kubrick's wife sing, you know, for them. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

That's my favorite part of the movie, honestly.

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Yes, yeah, and this is where he this is uh the the movie he he cast her in this film, and she said, I don't know how to I don't know how to sing. He says, I'm not looking for a singer, I'm looking for a a woman just to go on the stage and then just start singing. I don't need a singer. Um and uh and she barely knew English, by the way. Um, and and this is uh they uh evidently he met by her by her casting, you know, being being cast in the film. That's how they met and then got married soon after that.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

Um which I think I think that even while he was filming that movie, he told people he's like, That's gonna be my wife someday.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

Oh, is that right? That's that's that's I think so. That's awesome. If that if that's true, that is awesome. I love that story, and and you know, because um, you know, people don't know she was beautiful in that role. Oh yes.

SPEAKER_02 56:08

Oh, it's actually did seem good too.

SPEAKER_00 56:11

In a film that is so full of coldness and despair, you find a little bit of hope right there. Uh, and and um, you know, it's uh um you know, I I I feel like um uh Sean have you seen All Quiet on the Western Front, the the one from 1930?

SPEAKER_01 56:34

I have not. Oh, I would I would like to watch that more recent one that came out.

SPEAKER_00 56:41

It is it is outstanding for people that haven't seen that. You know, if if you've seen Paths of Glory, then then uh you if you like Paths of Glory, you will definitely like All Quiet on the Western Front. Very similar in theme, um and very similar in in hope and despair and all these things, and you even have the ladies that don't speak the same language kind of thing, too, happening. And um, and you know, there's a there's a scene in there early in the film, uh All Quiet on the Western Front, where the the guys get a little pass to go away. Uh, you know, you get like your 40 or 48-hour pass or whatever, and um uh and they uh they find girls to hang out with, and and there's a scene in there where the the the the German-speaking man is speaking to the to the French speaking woman and they can't communicate, but they do still communicate somehow. And it's just it's touching and warm in a film that is just not cold or not not touching and warm in any other moments. Um you know but anyway, yeah, that's a movie that you need to see. Um, I matter of fact, I I yeah, yeah, I I need to re-watch it myself because I after watching Paths of Glory, um, you know, I think that's that's another one I want to watch. But uh anyway, before we uh uh land the plane or whatever, uh what uh any final thoughts on Paths of Glory?

SPEAKER_01 58:24

Right. I love the movie. I think it still holds up, you know. I think uh it is a central Kubrick.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

Um is this his first masterpiece, you think? Because the killing was a really good movie, but this is like another next level, right?

SPEAKER_01 58:49

I I do. I think oh my god, I really do love the killing.

SPEAKER_00 58:53

It's really great. I uh but I think the killing is like a four and a half star movie out of five, and this is five. You know, and I I I think I I love the killing.

SPEAKER_01 59:07

But I if I had to go ahead, just in my opinion, I I do feel that this is more like powerful, more uh important.

SPEAKER_00 59:22

Yes, I think yeah, uh this one, however, does not have like my feelings.

SPEAKER_01 59:29

I because he he means so many good movies. It oh man.

SPEAKER_00 59:36

Yeah, I I I would say that um yeah, uh I I think between Kubrick and Scorsese and you know, I I mean uh Billy Wilder, John Ford, uh Hitchcock, there's about 15 directors like that that you you you could have hardcore fans list their top 10, and you let's say you you put out a hundred um a hundred people put out 100 lists of their top 10. Um, I think you might have 98 different answers. Um you know, I really do. I I you know, because you're talking about Scorsese, uh, you know, like um you know, my thing is goodfellows is the best one, you know, and uh but but anyone that says they like Mean Streets the best or taxi driver the best or raging bull the best, I'm like, well, I don't, but I can see why you do, you know, and my mine would be taxi driver, yeah. I I have a feeling that that's what you would say. Um, yeah, but um uh you know, and we'll get into uh the our favorite Kubrick, but I but I think that this is uh um yeah, essential for viewing for everyone, and I and I think that it's certainly essential Kubrick, which every movie except uh we we didn't talk, we we didn't do a conversation on on uh on the on his first feature, uh the fear and what is it called? Fear and I forget what's called Desire. Yeah, Fear and Desire, yeah, Fear and Desire. Yeah, yeah. I watched that for the first time a while back, and I'm I yeah, the shots were great, but nothing else was.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:19

Kubrick himself, I think, even tried to have the pulled from uh distribution or yeah, being seen from the public.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:28

He did, he did. Uh there are a number of people that have uh tried to destroy their own stuff because they don't want it seen. Uh you know, uh, like for example, uh uh the Marx brothers were in a silent film. I don't know if you know this, but the Marx brothers were in a silent film um in uh 19 uh 1925, I think, and there's no prints of it. Um, and a lot of people think it's because Groucho thought it was terrible and he got rid of all uh Mary Pickford is another example of somebody that you know tried to destroy a lot of her films and she was unaware that other people had prints. And there are yeah, and there are more modern people too that have done similar things, and and it's like you know, now that we've got the internet, if once things up there, it's like you know, that's that's a permanent record because somebody somewhere uh saved that on their phone or on their laptop, and then and it's on there forever, so and they'll share it with whoever they want want to. It's just not something that can be controlled anymore. Um, but um, you know, which by the way, do you know um that that it's possible that like two-thirds of the films that have been made, you know, are not are are basically lost or fragmented.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:55

It's crazy, you know, especially in uh the silent uh time period.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:59

Yeah, when you go back to the silent film, uh it's like 80%. Um they they don't have any way of knowing for sure, but they think about 80% because there's gonna be a handful of films that were made uh that there's no record of. Uh, but it you know, we I think we got a fair grip on it, but maybe we don't.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:19

But um uh in any case of uh George Millier's uh you know uh he did uh voyage to the moon and stuff like that. We made like hundreds of movies. I think that only a small percentage of them still exist because did you ever see the movie Hugo?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:38

Oh yes, yep. I matter of fact, just about a year ago, uh for the first time.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:43

Yeah, weren't they like melting down a lot of like the films to go ahead and uh produce uh boot heels or something like that?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:54

Or uh I'm not sure. I know what you're referring to, but yeah, it's I yeah, it's a it's a it's gray to me. I I I uh but but it's yeah, the the the main problem is is that filmmakers in general, um you know, in the past uh did not see them themselves as important, they didn't see their works as important. And you know, maybe they even feel that way today. You know, you you you make a movie now, and a hundred years from now, do you do you really think people are gonna care about it? Probably think they did that people won't, but in fact, someone like me is gonna be saying, Oh, yeah, you know, it's you know, by the way, you know, paths of glory, almost 70 years old now. That's crazy. You know, now I I'm older than you, but I I'm older than you, but I but I remember in the 80s, um, you know, I I I mean, I I I I I mean uh people people that were born in the 50s to me, um they they're young people to me. And that's like, oh wait a minute, they're not young. You know, I I remember feeling uh the 80s where it was or the 50s was just this decade that I could touch, but I I wasn't there, but I but I'm adjacent to it, you know, and and um it's like yeah, not anymore. We're we're not adjacent to the 50s, you know. Yeah, it's crazy, it's just absolutely insane. And uh it's like the meme uh on social media uh that probably means more to me than it does to you, but uh you know, seeing the picture of of uh the MTV VJs and and that it says um that World War Two, the closing of World War Two is closer to uh this the launching of MTV than we are to the launching of M T V. Like, oh great, thanks a lot, you know. Um Yeah. It's like, oh wow. Wow. Thank you very much. I really appreciate you. You know, thanks for bringing that to my attention. I needed, I really needed that. You know, I tell my kids all the time, hey, you know, uh, 1990 was like 10 years ago, right?

unknown 1:06:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:18

Yeah, it feels like that. You know, one day you wake up and you have kids and they're like, oh, and then another day you wake up and you have grandkids. And like, what, what, what happened here? How are my kids? How is my son 31 years old? I don't get it. I don't understand. But um, right now I'm just old man shouting the cloud. So, um, but anyway, um, well, Sean, and as always, it's a pleasure talking with you. Um, you know, and we we will have to uh uh continue our Kubrick conversation, and we'll probably uh probably have to take a little bit less time in between uh this time. The holidays get get in the way of everything, and uh and everything kind of goes. It's almost like we have two months of not doing anything important uh during the holidays. That's kind of like a past, kind of like the it's not my fault kind of thing. Like, oh you know, that's the holidays. Yeah, you know, hey, get back with me in January, you know. You know, really, because are you going to a Christmas party every single weekend? Is that what's happening here? Um are you going on are you doing something every Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday evening? You know, uh uh is is that what's going on here? Um, but uh anyway. Um it's great talking to you, Sean.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:36

Uh, like always, David. It's always fun talking to you too.