Sullivan’s Travels (With Mark Marshall)

In this episode, we talk with Mark Marshall about the Preston Sturges classic film, Sullivan’s Travels. We talk about the plot, production, and our two tremendous leads. The film stars Joel McCrea and Veronica Lake. 

Mark Marshall is a second time guest. He came up through the film industry working with film heavyweights Steven Spielberg and Richard Donner on movie sets. Please click on the link below to purchase his book about his wonderful experiences and stories working  on some of Hollywood’s beloved films. 

https://www.amazon.com/Goonies-Droids-Killer-Whales-Observations/dp/B0DPLNFVQC

Thanks for listening! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

I want this picture to be a common condition. With a little sticks. I don't want to stress it. I don't want this picture to be a document. I want a little memory to move. I want this to be a picture of dignity. With a little sticks. With a little sex in it. Musical. How can you talk about musicals at a time like this with a woman committing suicide? With corpses piling up on the street, with grim pig gargling at you from every corner, with people smoking like sheep. Maybe they'd like to forget that. Then why do they hold this one over for a fifth week at the music hall? For the usher and die in Pittsburgh. Like a dog. Well they know in Pittsburgh. They know what they like. If they know what they like, they wouldn't live in Pittsburgh.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Hello, welcome to Cinema Chat with David Heath, and I am your host, David Heath. And uh today I am here with Mark Marshall, and we are going to be talking about uh the movie Sullivan's Travels. We'll talk about the plot, the characters, the actors, and the director, Preston Sturgis, who is also the writer. And we also want to talk about Mark's book.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

I'll let you guide.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Okay, so we are here with uh Mark uh Marshall. Uh Mark, thanks a lot for coming on.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me back.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Yes, I I'm yeah, we we really had a I had a good good discussion um the last time uh for the benefit of the people that aren't dedicated listeners enough to where they listen to every episode uh at the jump. Um tell us about your book before we we're gonna start, we're gonna talk about Sullivan's travels, but I want everybody to talk about I want everybody to hear about your book first. Uh so go ahead and tell us about that.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

I appreciate that. Um well I the book is uh it's called Goonies, Troys, and Killer Whales. And it's a memoir of um my journey through the film industry. Um I was blessed to work with people like George Lucas, Steven Spielberg, Richard Donner, Howard Kazangian, um on films like The Empire Strikes Back and Raiders of the Lost Ark, Goonies, uh Freewilly, Color Purple, Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone. So um it was I you know I was in the right place at the right time uh a lot of the times and and uh uh made some great friends and uh I just wanted to share the the anecdotes, you know. I mean that period of film history from the late 70s through the you know 2000 or 2001 is still considered I think one of the greatest uh and most prolific periods uh for filmmaking. And uh, you know, in the the seventies of course changed um the films of the seventies changed Hollywood. So it um it was just a great time to be there. And uh, you know, I mean I I don't hold back on the embarrassing stories and and um I don't I don't name drop simply to name drop it. These are people that that influenced my career and my life, and um I wanted to celebrate them and and celebrate the industry um that as I said in the books, you know, exported magic to the world for over a hundred years.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Yeah, and and yeah, and you worked with some yeah, some really big names, and I uh I I'm really impressed uh with uh with your career. And for those of uh for those uh that are listening that didn't didn't hear that conversation, after you're done with this conversation, go back and listen to Mark and uh tell the stories, and and I will put a link in the show notes uh so people can uh uh click and uh buy your book through uh uh through the uh podcast. Um but uh uh so I I invited you back for a second time because we had a really fun conversation and uh we uh talked about certain movies so maybe we maybe we have a discussion about, but we s landed on Sullivan's Travels. Uh and so Sullivan's Travels from uh from 1941, directed by Preston Sturgis, uh, and uh of course it stars uh Joel McCrae and Veronica Lake. And I want to know your history before we talk about the film itself. When did when did you first see this film, do you think? And and what uh were your initial thoughts? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_03 4:46

Oh gosh. Um I can't pinpoint the time, um, but uh it probably would have been around the time I first got into the industry. Um my first feature job was in 1978. And prior to that time, you know, when I was uh growing up in Oklahoma um back in the in the early 70s, the um local TV affiliates after the news would have um they would present movies. And and the the ABC affiliate in Oklahoma City called KOCO had the five-star theater. And um they, you know, I didn't realize that they were classic films at the time, but they were movies like you know, Sergeant York or Laura or How Green was on Valley, um you know, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. It was it was just you just never knew what you were gonna see um from night to night. And and it was the best education. So, you know, it's possible that I could have seen it at that point, but uh I was aware of seeing it uh really after I um started working on um the sequel to American graffiti, and um we go home at night and and just watch old movies. Plus, back in the late 70s and early eighties, uh LA was filled with revival theaters that showed old movies, classic movies. Right Fox Minutes, you know, the new art, um the new Beverly. And they would put out uh monthly calendars a month in advance, and my friends and I would circle the movies we wanted to see, and that was really our our uh our social gatherings was going to the different houses to see you know these classic movies on 35 millimeter. And I'll tell you, if you haven't seen them on 35, you really haven't experienced them. Um I remember I remember seeing uh The Wizard of Oz in San Francisco and um when I was visiting my brother and sister-in-law, and uh you know, it was like seeing it for the very first time um, you know, on a big screen and setting a color. So um I really responded to those movies maybe not in depth but viscerally um when I first saw them. And Solomon's Travels was one of those movies that just caught me. The the first time I I was aware of what I was seeing. Um, you know, Prescott Surgis was an amazing writer and uh and earned the right to direct his movies, uh beginning with the Great McGuinty. And um he uh you know I think I responded to the to the message of the movie um so um so strongly. And um uh I still I mean every time I see it, it it still it still gets me.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Yeah, no, it's it it's it's really an incredible film, and and I agree, I I'm with you. It it moves me every time I see it. And but it's so it's so different than uh like you were mentioning uh you know uh some other films a minute ago and uh more serious ones, uh like How Green Was My Valley, or or uh one film that this could relate to is The Grapes of Wrath. Um even yeah, you know, we The Grapes of Wrath is such a serious film though, and this this is lighthearted for the most part, and which we'll get to the the tonal shifts uh in in a few minutes, but uh um but I I I I I love the this film and I and and I'm glad we landed on it. I've actually had I've I've thought I've thought about doing this episode for a very long time. I just never uh really got to it, which you know it's like my son asked me uh some time ago, he said, are you ever gonna run out of ideas for a podcast? Uh I said, no, every week that goes by I get more ideas than I than I record, you know. So I you know, I pretty much get two ideas for uh a week and and I record one a week. So what are we supposed to, you know, so no, I'm not gonna run out of ideas. Um but it it's uh but this is one that that has been uh on my list uh to cover for quite a while. Um but of course uh the uh I know um I was looking at the um at uh the uh the IMED uh uh on it and uh uh it kind of it kind of actually nails the the synopsis. Um but basically it it's it's just um you know a movie director decide if played by Joel McRae decides he you know of course he's Sullivan, um but he he decides I'm you know I'm going to direct a movie that means something to people and uh I'm I'm tired of doing all these uh you know silly movies. Let's get on to something you know serious. And um and the film presents a bit of a uh of a uh a conundrum, you know. Uh filmmakers are are it's almost like we're they're asked, you know, Preston Sergeus is asking the question, should we be making a film the about what we're making a film about? You know, you know which yeah, because how do we identify with the with the poor? And and this is uh a time um uh in 1941 where we had uh still our we're feeling effects from the depression. Um and and uh this film I think came out right before the US got involved in World War II, if I'm not mistaken.

SPEAKER_03 11:03

Yeah, it came out I think in the fall of 41 and okay and um we didn't get you know involved in the war until eight.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Yeah, I thought it came out right before, yeah. Um and uh but we yeah, we weren't at war yet, but but it came out you know where we where there were there were just lots of lots and lots of people uh you know hurting and uh and people that had just basically given up on life. And we see that in the in the film. We see people that just obviously have given up, you know, uh on life, and the and it's there, you know, like we see the um uh one of my favorite scenes in the film is when they're on the train, getting on the train, the and uh um the one hobo looks across from them and in disgust and says, amateurs, you know. You know, it's just uh it's just a a fun uh for the most part it's fun and breezy, but but I I I I have to we have to say that this is almost like from two or three different genres. You know, we we have the beginning uh scene where of course it it is obviously a screwball comedy. Um, you know, right before we started recording, you don't know this yet, Mark, but right before we start recording, um I I recorded the segment where the the where the producers were talking to Sullivan and saying, and I this is what uh this is you know what we're doing, and you know, and he's like, no, no, I don't want to do that. I'm so tired of it. Um but uh they you know he talks about doing something serious and they say with a little sex, which by the way, I have no idea how the how Preston Sterge just got that past the the the the hay A's code uh people. I have no idea how he did that. And they didn't just say it once, they said it twice.

SPEAKER_03 13:01

And they were busy laughing, yeah, yeah. And it became it, you know, it became the it that's the reality of of uh you know the studio bosses. You know I'm I want to do something about the plight of humanity with a little sex in it. Yes, with a little sex in it. And and uh but that's that's you know certainly the reality. But you know, you you mentioned Grapes of Wrath earlier, yeah, and that's exactly the kind of movie that that John Sullivan wants to do. He's tired of doing the frothy comedies. Um and um so they want to they're they're willing to indulge him, but they want to you know hedge their bets with a little sex in it. Yeah. Um so that's just that's that's the studio system for you.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

And and it and it and it's continued um, you know, eight eighty eighty-five years later, it's still kind of like that. Um you know, it's it's still kind of like you always see these studio, you know, these studio heads and producers hedging their bets on on things, and and um, yeah, it's just it's a crazy thing. But the funny thing is, is he talks about I want to do something serious, um, and then we immediately have probably the most slapstick recorded on film um that wasn't a three stooges movie, uh, or or a silent film. Uh I it just uh it's mind-boggling how how slapstick, how much slapstick uh he threw in there. Um I've got a theory about that, but I want to hear what you have to say. Um it's a tonal shift because we go from that that screwball smart comedy to straight slapstick. Um, and then we have another you know tonal shift and and yet another. But but what's your what what is your uh uh thought on it?

SPEAKER_03 14:59

I I you're talking about the bus scene, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Yeah, yeah, you for the yeah, for the folks that haven't watched yet, we're not we're not spoiling anything. It's at the beginning. The these these uh studio heads, they they want to watch uh what Sullivan's doing, so they start following him in a school bus. They have a bunch of people follow him, and then of course, you know, he gets on a little race car with a kid that's 13, I think he said. Um and and and he takes them on this wild ride, and the bus people are just going crazy. Um, but yeah, what what are your what are your thoughts on that tonal change there?

SPEAKER_03 15:38

Well, I I'm listening this is my theory, but I think it's misdirection. Um uh intentional misdirection. I think that you know he's presenting this this high-key screwball comedy so that when he he does change the tone and and shifts into more serious, uh more serious area, that it's you know, it it kind of reminds me of uh the scene in Jaws when when um uh Quint is telling the Indianapolis story. But they precede it by by you know showing their scars. And Dryus is laughing and laughing, and uh when he asks if that uh if his tattoo says mother, he says, No, Mr. Cooper, that's the uh Indianapolis. And you see him, you know, start to get serious when he dawned when it dawns on him um the significance of of the story he's going to tell. And um I think that that Spencer uh Preston Surgeon did the same thing. I think he that you know you can I think you can get a message across if people aren't expecting it. If they're if they're if they're having a good time, if they're into the characters, and they're laughing along with them, and then suddenly the reality hits. And um and and as it does for for Sullivan. Um and I so I I think that was certainly um intentional and well-timed, as a matter of fact, too.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Wait, that's a real that's a really good point. I think it I think I think it's completely valid to think that. Um I have I have my own theory, which is definitely not connected to yours, um, which I think I think that that that the sequence may have served multiple purposes. Um but I think another thing that that this uh this big slapstick slapsticky thing caused was uh it caused p yeah, I I totally totally with your theory. I I didn't uh hadn't quite spun it that way in my head, but but the other thing I thought of is um there may have been children in the inside the movie theater um watching that in 1941. And if you can get their attention with you know five minutes of slapstick, and then you know on the back end we see them watching a Pluto cartoon, you know, and and you know, and if you those are the types of things that little kids remember. Um, and they may not remember the dialogue in the beginning, very beginning or some of it in the middle, but they do remember those slapsticky things, and it sticks in their head, and then when they watch it again 30 years later, and it's still a great movie, but for different reasons. Uh, you know, right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:41

Well, uh, you know, and you a good point. And and the thing is, what's the message of the movie? Yeah that that in tough times people just want to be entertained, they want to laugh. They don't want to be reminded of the the dire circumstances they're in or or the hopelessness that they may feel. They want, even if it's just for a uh you know, an hour and a half to be able to forget their troubles. Um and a comedy can do that. So so you know, he's entertaining the audiences with this slapstick sequence, as you said, and they're just they're laughing along with it. So that when they when it settles down and starts becoming real, they haven't he hasn't alienated the audience. He's captured them already, and then he can start getting his message across.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

No, I I I I think you think you're spot on with what you just said. Uh I uh I I think there's something to um you know uh to being able to couch something. Uh, you know, like if you're gonna tell someone you know really bad news uh that they they don't want to hear, um it's uh it sometimes um is makes it better a little bit uh what if if there's a scenario where you can be doing something that you're rather enjoying um you know before you get told that bad news. Uh, you know, and like if you're at a ball game or something, you know, I don't know. I and uh but I I think that there's something too um that that the whole sequence and I I think also um he somewhat shamelessly I would say kind of wanted to just to pay tribute to the old silent films too. And I think what he put together was every bit as good as uh you know uh anything anybody ever put together for as far as slapstick goes. It's hilarious. And and and because of uh, you know, I I like said I I would rather watch that sequence than than than watch a lot of of um uh other slapstick stuff. And I I I think it was just well done. And and uh you could tell that he uh had some passion and some love for for the silent film era from you know, because there's really three sequences in the film that are kind of that could be in a silent movie, you know, that could, you know, and and I I rather enjoy all of them. And and but I think that this one here is just it's just priceless. It's a it's so good. Um but and of course we have another tonal shift when they go into when when Sullivan loses the the big bus and he's all on his own, and what has he got like a dime in his pocket or something? And uh yeah, and uh and and uh he goes to um the the only flaw I see in this movie, by the way, the only flaw is that he goes into that diner looking for breakfast, and then later in the The film he says, I don't ever eat before noon, you know. Wait a minute, wait a minute, you had breakfast earlier, you were hungry earlier. I don't understand. Um, but that's a that's that's a very minor complaint. Um, but um what is what are your thoughts on this on the next scene with that just really good screwball y you know humor, uh, and it's not even necessarily a lot of humor, uh, but it's really fast talk and from between our two leads, uh McCrae and and and Veronica Lake. And um, you know, my my my my first thought is that Veronica Lake is absolutely fantastic with her timing here. And McCrae, of course, a consummate actor, uh is also perfectly assigned. What what are your thoughts on that on that diner scene and how how that all comes down because she's being very coy, but being very, you know, almost seductive, but not quite seductive. But what what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_03 23:06

Well, she you know, she uh takes control the minute he comes in and he, you know, he just wants a donut and some coffee, and and she says, give him the ham and eggs. Yeah. And uh, you know, she's not gonna pay for it, but uh um it's a great introduction for her. And and I kind of view Veronica Lake, uh, who who you know is such a sultry star. Um but she plays comedy very well, very deadpan. Um she I I view her character as kind of the angel on Solomon's shoulder. Um because she's the one who kind of uh tries to be the you know the voice of reason and directing him uh because I I think she cares uh starts caring for him very quickly. And um so and and also she's I think tired of being alone and wants wants a traveling companion. So when she has somebody who's as amiable as as Sullivan, even though he's a little caustic to her um at the beginning, um she really ingratiates herself to her. So I him I just think that that she is the maybe his muse um after a while. But to in the beginning, I think she's kind of the the conscience of Sullivan.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Yeah, it's a really good point. And and and be and because he she uh throughout the first uh well she she it's 23 minutes in when she comes in. And and um my my thoughts on Veronica League in in general at this movie is that uh that she didn't she she was not she did not have nearly the amount of screen time as as Joel Joel McCraig did. Um but she makes uh the most of every second she's on on the screen. And you know, she she's one of those um, you know, I I I I think you could I don't she just had the whole it factor and she was just you know impossible to take your eyes off of and she and she's fun to listen to and she's doing that rapid fire dialogue. I I just I love Veronica Lake in this so much. Um but um um yeah I I I like the way she was just coy and and that she yeah, but like you said, sultry. That's really the most appropriate word when you're dealing with Veronica Lake. I I feel like uh, you know, in real life, you know, uh unfortunately she wasn't an angel. She she obviously had her demons and you know that she dealt with and and she could have had a I think had a absolutely remarkable career. Uh but uh it was side side railed because she got a little too big for britches, as my mom would say, um, you know, and she had the alcohol problems. But I but I love her in this movie so much. And uh and I I think she does really great in the noirs, which I know she didn't like doing, um, but she I think she was really great in those too. But she could do this screwball comedy, uh and she could go toe-to-toe with all the the great ones with with as far as that that screwball comedy stuff goes, but that's that are those are my thoughts. But um, you know, and then we we go to kind of the the second act of the movie, you know, which is where uh you know the they they kind of dive into the uh the big ocean of uh being poor. I don't know how else to put it, uh but uh being or being broke, not being poor, but being broke, broke and poor. Um and uh um it gets very serious uh at and moments and uh now um we're probably gonna spoil this in in a little bit. Um so if you haven't seen it yet, maybe hit pause and then watch the movie and then you know then come back to it if you're listening to this uh and haven't seen Sullivan's Travels. Uh, because it's hard to really talk about this movie without discussing uh the the whole ending of the movie and how it all flows. But um as far as the second act of the movie, all the way up till the time when we see Sullivan in prison, it becomes a kind of a different film. And um and and I and I I guess your response is that it all fits, right?

SPEAKER_03 28:10

Well, yeah, I mean I I you know the thing is that the um the there's a bit before they hit the road where and it's kind of a runny gag where Sullivan says, you know, no matter where I go, I keep ending up back in Hollywood.

SPEAKER_04 28:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:26

And you know, and he and he can't get started. Um and uh, you know, and the and the team behind him they're trying to help him, they're not adverse to him doing it. They've already said they would support him, so uh it's really Sullivan's folly, you know, that he can't get out on the road. And when he finally does, um you know, the um the montage of going through uh the camp.

SPEAKER_02 28:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:58

Um the humble camp, and how I mean there's no dialogue whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Yeah, another silent film.

SPEAKER_03 29:04

It's all looks, yeah. They're they're you know, they're holding hands, um for safety maybe, but but they they just take in the reality which is finally hit, and and Sullivan's never had to deal with with that reality. Um and as as pure as his intentions are, he's not ready for it. So I you know, I sense that maybe Veronica Lake's character, who they who you know is called the girl. She's she's never given a name.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Yeah, she never does.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

Um, so that's kind of interesting, but but um you know, you sense that maybe she has maybe encountered that before, or she's more familiar with it than uh a a a Hollywood director who's never been out among the people. And um so everything, you know, the reality hits through their through their reactions and and uh the looks on their faces and then when they're trying to sleep, you know, wedged in with other people and and uh then um uh his shoes are stolen, you know, things like that. Um it's I think it finally starts to sink in.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Yeah, no, it it does. And and I yeah, it's it's impactful. And and and again, we we we have it laced with humor, um, but it's it it is impactful. Um you know, and part of the thing, um, I you know, because I was listening to some commentary um um about this, uh some some um I heard a couple people uh complain. I was looking on Letterboxd also. I I try to look and see what other people think of it so I can get a different perspective. And and sometimes I do, but it doesn't mean I necessarily agree with the perspective, but uh, but uh there were some there were a few people uh that complained um about um about the tonal shifts and and but the thing is is life is full of tonal shifts. I guarantee you if you walk outside and um if you go somewhere where there's a homeless person right now and I guarantee you that that person laughed today today. You know, even though they probably were sad most of the day, they probably also laughed. And and so that's the way life is, you know, and life is full of tonal shifts. You don't stew, you don't stew for you know your for 16 waking hours. Uh uh you might stew for a lot of it, but but eventually you're going to, you know, at least uh have a little smirk on your face. Like, oh, that was kind of funny, you know. Um oh, you know, I almost tripped.

SPEAKER_03 31:55

Everything is temporary, everything is sick of it.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:57

Um and you can start out having a bad day, end up with a good day, or you can start out with a great day and end up, you know, with a tragedy staring you in the face. Um, you know, I I think of um uh the comedian Dick Sean.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:14

Dick Sean Mad World. And um do you know I don't know if you know the story, but he he was performing on stage. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

Um I know where you're going. Go ahead and tell it though.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

And had just finished a joke and keeled over dead.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:29

And the audience thought it was part of the act, and they laughed for uh several minutes until they people started to realize that he wasn't.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Um that's a total shift, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 32:41

Yeah, that's the ultimate total shift. So so yeah, that I mean it happens. Um but I'll say, you know, the only thing that that bothers me in the movie, and I but I certainly understand why Preston Sturgis did it, you know, so he could advance the plot was that Sullivan gives up too easily.

SPEAKER_02 33:02

Yeah, he does.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

Um, you know, I I don't know what they they go into that little shanty area and I don't know if it's the when he sees the you know, the soup or whatever, and puts the wood down and and takes her hand and they they walk off. And the next thing you know, you know, that he's back in his like mansion. So um, but I but again I understand why, but I was disappointed because I thought, you know, this guy's gonna stick it out. He's gonna he's gonna learn, which he he does in another way, but um it just it seemed to be so final at the time.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Yeah, and I don't know if this was done on purpose. It probably was. I I wish we could talk to Preston Sturgis. Unfortunately, I don't know of any interviews that he ever gave. Uh I I I may be totally wrong. There may be 10 things on YouTube that you can look up, but uh have you ever seen him in an interview or heard him in an interview?

SPEAKER_03 34:05

Uh no, but I think there's a a book, uh biography of Sturgis, which I'd like to get. I mean, I yeah, I think I still find him endlessly fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

Yeah, but I I I I don't know if I'm giving him too much credit, but I I don't think I am, because I think the guy was a genius. Um, but I I sometimes I wonder if that is uh you know, subconsciously or or even just consciously telling us uh that we're not ready to hear about this stuff, you know. We're not ready. We're and and and and most of us will never be ready. Um, you know, uh, you know, it's one thing to say, um, oh, that poor guy over there, what a shame. Uh, that's too bad. But then you walk away, you certainly aren't going to say, hey, hey, you want to spend the night at my place, and I'll keep you here for a week or two until you get on your feet. How about that? You know, we don't ever do that. You know, people don't do that. And and um, and so and why? Because we're not ready to face that that problem ourselves. And uh yeah, and I think I I don't know if that was consciously, subconsciously, purposely. I I don't know. Um, I I wish Preston Surgis uh could could have answered that question. Maybe like I said, maybe maybe he did his biography. And I may be wrong about the interview thing. I I there may be something um somewhere, but uh, you know, maybe, you know, but this was unless you live until Dick Cabot starts doing his show, you you probably don't know a lot of about a lot about uh the classic uh film artists. Um but um um and speaking of artists, I I I really do need to mention the fact that and you kind of already brushed on it a minute a few minutes ago, but uh Preston Sturgis, of course, wrote this and directed it, which this wasn't unprecedented. Um, you know, Charlie Chaplin had been doing that, um, and there's other people that had been doing that kind of stuff, but it's it was still very rare, and it's an extraordinary for somebody to a director to get almost full reign on what he wants to do. Do you get the feeling that Preston Surgis could have just done anything with this because he already had some success and the that maybe the studio just left him alone?

SPEAKER_03 36:41

Uh I you know, I think after when he when he stated he wanted to direct the great McGinty that he wrote, um, he said he would he would take practically no salary for that if they would let him direct.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

And um I think he got ten dollars for the script, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:58

Yeah, it paid off. It was a hit.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 37:00

And and you know, nothing gives you more freedom than uh a hit in Hollywood. I mean, Jaws gave Stephen Final Cut for the rest of his life. So Hollywood responds to to uh talent, but they respond to talent that makes money. So um but I think but Preston Service is also was also very disciplined, I think, um, in that he set out to tell this story in in probably the most uh um visual and and um impactful way possible. And so I don't think he wasted uh anything in his script. I don't know um if he edited in his mind as he went. Um so it I don't know if there were extraneous scenes that uh didn't make the final cut, but it's you know it's so lean, it's an hour and a half long.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:57

And um and it and it it hits very, very hard. Um so and I think also you know, the fact that he gives up and then decides, okay, the best way I can help is I'm gonna take you know, I'm gonna take out a bunch of five dollar bills and I'm gonna pass them out to the homeless because he he knows, you know, the when he didn't have the dime in his pocket, he thought he had that he'd lost it. Um and um you know, so I he he knew how much that would mean to to to the homeless.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

I think it'd be around 150 today. I don't know. I I'm without doing the inflation calculator, I bet you that's about 150 to today's money.

SPEAKER_03 38:43

Yeah, he certainly had it, you know, when you see the bills go flying later, you realize he he had a lot of them. And um so uh but I I you know I think that um he just really knew how to straddle uh and to and to steer audiences um so that so that it wasn't so abrupt. Um and because you know, I mean when you when you shift the tone of something too much, you can you can lose the audience. So he really handled it so well. And uh I think the audiences were with him um all the time based on the success of the film.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Yeah, and I one of the one of the better scenes uh uh is and involves those five dollar bills, which of course the that uh that man uh ends up you know uh ends up setting up Sullivan to go to to go to a a prison, go to a chain gang. Um but before that uh when he when when that man is like grabbing all those five dollar bills on the railroad tracks and he hears the train coming, he oh it's so satisfying that that he couldn't figure out which where to go, where am I gonna go here, uh left or right? I don't know. And he didn't have enough time to think, and and and of course he just gets flattened by the train, which that scene is very satisfying.

SPEAKER_03 40:14

I'm sorry, you know, but well that you know in in back in the 40s and 30s, 40s, and 50s, um, if you did something evil, uh-huh. You gotta get paid, you gotta pay penance. Yeah, you you paid for it. Yeah, that that extended clear up into the into the nineties with um with movies like uh uh um Nymar and Elm Street, you know, kids kids that do drugs, uh they were they were potheads, well they're gonna have to die, you know, at at the hands of the killer. So um there there was kind of a moral code. But the you know the thing is it it everything that Sullivan did before up to up to that point really wouldn't have changed him at all. Yeah um it was it was that incident that that finally drove home what he needed to know, to what he needed to learn to um to come to to the conclusion that he came to. And uh so it was necessary. It was it was meant to be.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

One thing that um uh we you you just mentioned that the film is so lean, which it which it is, the only thing I do know for sure um about Sturgis and is that uh as far as this movie goes, uh is that he I he won evidently he wanted the prison chain gang um sequence to be lengthier. And he was talked out of it um and said the the the they they told him, look, you're the this is brutal. Um you don't need to put people through that much brutality for that length of time. Um they'll get it. Um, you know, and lose them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and he figured out that they were right, and and the film was cut, and it turns out to be, you know, I mean, you're most filmmakers, you know, I guarantee you, uh Spielberg and Richard Donner, and you know, they they they put movies together that probably they think, oh, three minutes of it probably could have been cut. I guarantee you they they've they've done that, you know. Um to they they said that to themselves at some point. Um, you know, the the best filmmakers, you know, don't always do all of the right things all of the time.

SPEAKER_03 42:47

Um but I didn't know the original the original cut of Radio Flyer that Dick directed was four hours long. Um the original cut really was three hours. Um and and so naturally when you put together a movie, the editor's gonna put together every scene that was shot.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:04

And it's only when you look at it uh and evaluate it that you say, okay, we really don't need this. Um we can cut from this to this, and that's how you whittle down the movie. But if you don't have the material there that was in the script, you start thinking, well, what if we had you know why didn't we shoot that? Um so it's all it's you know, it's all it's a process of elimination. Um and the uh the director and the editor find the movie in post-production.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, editors, um uh editors can make all the difference in the world sometimes. And and you know, sometimes so uh sometimes it's not someone above the director, and it's it's the editor that that says, Hey, you know what, this little part here can go and we can live without it. And but I think directors often fall in love with.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

their projects and and they you know I I get it you know I get it I I there's things I've done that I'm particularly proud of that no one else is going to care about and so there's no point in you know parading myself through yeah well that that's the you know I mean if if you look at look at Star Wars I mean George the original editor that was on the film was a traditional British editor and he cut the movie very linearly and and it was it was terribly boring and George said no this you know it needs to move faster and that's when he came back and and hired Paul Hirsch and Richard Shu and his wife Martha to go in and and to r reconfigure the you know reimagine the entire film and and look what it came to be. If it if it the original cut had been the final cut um Star Wars probably would not have been the phenomenon that it is.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Yeah and I had Paul Hirsch on this podcast did you know that no yeah I had Paul Hirsch yeah yeah he he came on here and uh and um and we talked we talked about uh a little bit of a lesser project uh the we talked about uh falling down in from 1992 or three four I forget which year but I think yeah yeah one of those years um yeah the yeah and and we we talked about uh you know uh the star we talked about Star Wars too a little bit and others uh but but really really good guests he's a he's a and he's a great I mean I I think um of all the people uh uh all the non-directors anyway living today I mean I think he probably has been through more than I mean probably has been through more projects than just about anybody living now that I think about it more than most more than directors I should say because you know editor comes in later um but uh the and his book is definitely worth getting yeah yeah yeah yeah and uh yeah yeah he he is just uh I I think he's forgotten way more than I know uh about films and all of us yeah yeah he's just he's uh he's he's a he's a brilliant mind that doesn't um doesn't actually um stick his chest out he's he's very very humble about his yeah about his experiences that as are you um you know you you were you worked with you know uh with Donner and and and Spielberg and um and oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 46:43

Well I didn't have the singular talent but that that Paul Hirsch does um I was just mostly you know the the forest gump of of film now you're really now you're going over the top of it.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

Yeah you know now you're now you're going on yeah you're going over the top of the humility now um but uh you know uh but anyway that uh the yeah the chain game sequence is supposed to be longer at least uh that's what uh Preston Sturgis wanted I I I feel like it would have been you know yeah too much as well because this this movie has you know you know basically 10 to 15 minute segments a whole bunch of them and and you know once you've once once the film makes its point it moves on to the next one it moves on to the next and uh and it's really just a scene by scene thing and I don't want to say it's unlike any other film because there are other movies that are kind of like this um but um as far as uh being you know having the subject matter that that it covers uh it it's it's it's it's kind of spot on I I it's it's it's so weird there's a lot of meta humor in it a lot of um meta discussion and um I you know I I think we are inside the minds of 1940s filmmakers uh that you know and and I suppose um I suppose it's kind of difficult to do like I said I really wish that Preston Sturgis would have been old well when he died and because I I I it would have been nice to yeah you know like I don't know I'm I'm based on your reaction earlier you could you've probably looked back on those Dick Cabot shows as well.

SPEAKER_03 48:39

I they're so fun to watch you know watch him talk to the Hollywood legends and you know and they probably thought they were done you know and and usually and then they they get on there and they realize oh wow I'm still loved you know absolutely well and they they they still have so much to share you know and and um uh they love sharing that knowledge yeah with audiences um you know even even though a lot of the people watching uh may have had no interest in film or or or uh were going to attend film school or anything else yeah they it was it was fascinating to hear what was in their mind.

SPEAKER_01 49:18

You know when when when the film comes to it's uh it's De Numont and and um so John Sullivan learns the lesson that he was meant to learn all along um you know that in in times of trial and strife people just want to laugh they want to forget and and that Disney cartoon which originally uh they asked Charlie Chaplin for to use one of his shorts and he refused so they went with Disney and even though the laughter's a bit over the top um it certainly hammers home the point that that those men who who were living in a hopeless situation um and and the the congregation that was surrounding them and and uh watching as well and and were and were poor and and um uh had no way to raise their station in mind they appreciated the humor they embraced the humor and and the laugh the laughs are what what uh gave them hope um even if it was just temporary which is which is sometimes enough so um you know and and and ultimately you know uh Sullivan's decision about what kind of film he's gonna make um just brings it all back around yeah no I I I I agree I I think that the the scene where they're watching that that that Disney cartoon they you know there where he's watching them all laugh and it like gives him permission to laugh too at the silliness of it.

SPEAKER_03 51:01

Yeah I mean well he laughs you know he he he laugh does an outburst of laughing and then suddenly stops and and thinks what am I doing? Yeah yeah yeah um yeah why am I laughing and then he just starts laughing again yeah but it you know it's it's the revelation for him that um that's the calling.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

Yeah and and it was um and I I think um one reason why um uh I think one reason why Laurel and Hardy were so beloved uh was because they got really big right after uh the depression started and and the and they just blew up and became big stars and I think that those types that those types of laughs you know were were what a lot of people needed. It's what you know the doctor ordered without oh absolutely yeah and I I think it was it was visual humor too I mean it wasn't yeah it wasn't play on words it was just strictly visual and and Stan and Ollie were they portrayed the victims of the depression a lot of times. You know they were very rarely uh well to do yeah they were always you know they were always looking they they they they weren't usually you know hobos what we call hobos uh but I mean except for a few times they were but but they were always like teetering on it you know yeah and you know one to turn yeah it's one of the comedies where they were destitute and had to go to a a a a widow's house to ask for food you know a predicament.

SPEAKER_03 52:42

But but you're right I mean they and and the fact that they never gave up you know um uh I love Lauren Hardy and you know their uh you know their motto was two minds without a single thought um and uh so and and and I always wondered you know what was really behind you know the thought behind them and and you know I learned that uh Stanley was really the smart one because he was dumb but he knew he was dumb. And Ollie was dumb but didn't realize he was dumb that's right the smarter one. But but also the thing that that made them so beloved was that they they genuinely loved each other. Yeah like brothers. Yeah they Ollie would never abandon Stan and Stan would never abandon Ollie um so they muddled through together usually with Ollie taking the brunt of you know of all the hits and the slaps and the you know dunkings and and uh that that in during that period of the depression probably meant more you know that these guys stuck together yeah and ruddered out together.

SPEAKER_01 53:57

Yeah yeah and you you and I watched it in different uh settings obviously uh but but I think that that really was a a key factor and I and I love uh to uh to to bring the the uh conversation to a conclusion I think uh that um sturgis during that that uh that beginning uh that that scene near the beginning uh with all the slapstick stuff uh I I think uh I think he was in I think it served more than one purpose I think he really wanted an excuse to pay tribute uh to all those uh great uh old uh old movie stars all those old old comedy stars because you know there was there was a lot of key you know max in it type humor only better than max in a humor um you know uh you know the dialogue was like the Marx brothers and and yeah yeah yeah and you know and there was Harold Boyd and there was Chaplin there was Buster Keaton there was yeah they were they it was you're right it was a tribute to all of those who came forward because they they got us through or they got the world through yeah so much of history that that uh of the 20th century that um were frankly dire in some in you know some of those years um so yeah God bless them yeah and I don't want to end the show before I I realize that I I I you know that there are actors in this movie too that you know uh William Dimrest Porter Hall Franklin Pingborn uh you know these are all these are people that that you see in movies he they're they're all that guy I think p I think everybody knows William Demerest from my three sons that's what I mentioned um I mean first time when every time I see William Demerus I automatically you know think of my three sons um Charlie yeah yeah um well well Demeris and Pangborn uh were kind of a a Sturgis stock company so they were yeah they were yeah Preston Sturgis movies and um and uh uh so they were familiar faces and man they they handled comedy they handled drama so so beautifully um you know there's uh you were talking about the the team that is in the ride you know the um what was it called the the uh whippet tank that's what he called it um you know the kid wanted to be a uh a race car driver and and at one point when they're uh trying to outrun the bus um you know Sullivan looks down and sees that there's that there's a a drawing of a speedometer at 120.

SPEAKER_03 56:47

little things like that and and um you know when Sullivan gets out and the kid says well I better I guess I better get on to school and he says yeah I guess you better he said uh drive carefully and the kid says you know me and and just just little pieces of dialogue like that that just were so charming and so um and really said something about the characters um in in very few words so I I'm I was blown away by his his talent first as a writer but then um how he excelled as a director for for several years after.

SPEAKER_01 57:26

Yeah yeah um I agree uh he would he he uh what did he do 12 films I think um something like that um but it's just it's ridiculous the the the the how um you know he was almost like the Kubrick of comedy you know uh like you know he he just didn't he didn't give us very much but what he gave us was all fantastic you know yeah and and you know the the beautiful thing too is that in those days he never did a sequel you know I mean apart from like the Finn Man uh things like that but but there was never a Sullivan's Travels 2 yeah or Sullivan Travels Again.

SPEAKER_03 58:08

Um each of his films you know Hail the Conquering Hero and uh Miracle of Morgan's Creek they were all originals. Yeah they were and and and said something about the human condition um in in a lighthearted um and sometimes serious way but but he always he always invited the audience in and uh and they were better for for uh spending you know that hour and a half or two hours with him.

SPEAKER_01 58:36

Yeah I think he probably drew a lot of inspiration from uh Frank Capra too. I I think uh oh yeah his movies Ernst Lubic yeah Lubic yeah yeah yeah you could yeah I guarantee you yeah um uh but I Lubic was even mentioned in the movie sorry sorry interrupt but you know they he even mentioned yeah Ernest Lubic is mentioned as well as Capra they're both mentioned yeah that that's right they were uh yeah Lubic was yeah mentioned uh that's right uh the uh yeah I I I Veronica I had to think about it for a second did I I know I saw a movie recently where they mentioned Lubic was it this movie yeah it was yeah yes it was I I tell you I I I watch so many movies that it just like oh my goodness it just sometimes uh it just stuff gets crammed in my head sometimes and I I and I'm I'm surprised my head doesn't explode um I don't know about you but uh there were times I so wish I could go back and watch some of those movies for the first time yeah you know it's funny you said that because um I I was seeing on Facebook uh somebody complaining on a movie page about Turner classic movies and saying why are they putting these movies on well you know I Castle Blanca is my favorite movie okay but I don't want to watch it every day you know the there not there's only so many of these perfect films so we have to um realize that hey there's some films out there that are good that maybe have a couple flaws and there's some that aren't really that great but you might get a couple chuckles out of it and you know and you might actually you know think about it for just a second you know you're not ever not everything has to be the best you know you're certainly not gonna you know you're certainly not gonna go to a five star steakhouse every night you know and if you did it would be boring you know but I but I think you take away something from every film you watch it may not be profound yeah it may it may just be a line of dialogue that that you find funny that you can share but but I think that you can take away something from every film you see. Yeah I agree one of the worst movies I I I have ever watched and I I I actually liked it when I was nine years old but I didn't not so much now uh was The Pursuit of D B Cooper. I don't know if you've ever seen that but it's it's a really terribly written movie. Nothing wrong with the actors which they're hardly ever it's hardly ever the actor's fault whenever there it's a bad movie. But uh you know but um all because um I you know I know somebody that always um uh calls people to you know like you'll be in the car and she'll and someone will be slow to move and just like move it tut and and and the and when when uh somebody in the movie says reach for the sky toots and I was sitting there watching the movie with this person and we were just like I we were just you know it was like someone gave us a bunch of laughing gas because it's hilarious.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:04

Maybe it's specific to us but yeah absolutely it's you know something is gonna is gonna make an impression something's going to you know tickle our funny bones something is going to resonate. Yeah yeah again yeah even if it's just a a visual or a or a line of dialogue or whatever so yeah um just you know don't have any expectations when you see a movie and and you can it's amazing what uh what it can open up for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:33

Yeah well Mark I really just enjoyed talking about Sullivan's travel with you and I and uh uh I hope I can uh you know uh I hope I can get talk you into a a third appearance on the show at some point.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:46

Let's do Ten Commandments no I'm just kidding but but um no likewise I had a I had a good time um and I learned something you know this evening so um yeah it was a it was a uh a great time so thank you