"Products and businesses in harmony with the world shouldn't be niche" Tom Greenwood, MD Wholegrain Digital

A founder who doesn’t see himself as a salesman, targeting purpose-led companies that don't identify that way, to tackle a problem that people don't think exist.

Recipe for success...

And exactly what Tom Greenwood did with Wholegrain Digital, the company he founded and which, in sustainability stakes, was a way ahead of the curve.

Tom's concern for the environment started when it was still very much a minority sport. Certainly long before it became mainstream to talk about it, let alone make it the default business model.

When he turned that concern to the business he founded, he did so with three goals in mind.

First, to push making digital sustainable. The received wisdom at the time was that the internet and digital were benign actors in terms of environmental impact. Very early on, from his own research, Tom was aware that its environmental impact was anything but minimal.

Second, to work with purpose-led companies to create a positive impact - to do good things with good companies.

And finally, to do it all in a way that creates a sustainable business.

What could go wrong!

16 years on, he's only gone and done it!

Wholegrain is thriving. Tom's authored and published a widely read book about the decisions technologists and designers can make to minimise the environmental impact of their web sites. And awareness of sustainability is rising.

Tom is one of humanity's genuinely lovely people. He's making a difference in his own unassuming, determined and impactful way.

And it was a real pleasure to hear his story on this episode of the Karmic Capitalist.

Listen in.

_______________

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If you'd like to join me, find a date that works for you here. They aren't charged for - you and I will both get value from the conversation.

Only CEOs / MDs apply - strictly peer-level conversation.

Transcript

Iyas [00:00:00]:

Welcome to the Karmic Capitalists podcast, stories of companies that are doing capitalism better. Bond Greenwood was looking at sustainability long before it was mainstream. He founded Whole Grain Digital with his wife with 3 goals in mind. to focus on making digital sustainable, to work with purpose led companies to create positive impact, and to do it in a way that creates a sustainable business Wonderful as a vision, but really hard to get going commercially, especially for a founder who doesn't see himself as a salesman. 16 years Tom's early focus has paid off with a thriving company and a widely read book, which looks at the design decisions technologists and designers can make to minimize the impact of their website. Tom's one of the world's genuinely lovely people and is making a difference in a totally unassuming but determined and impactful way. Listen in. And hello, and welcome to the Karmic Capital podcast. I'm delighted to have with me today, Tom Greenwood, the founder of Hill Green Digital, and the author of the sustainable web design book to Pleasure to have you here with us today. Yeah. Happy to be here. Thanks. Oh, obviously, I'm always keen to get the the story. But before we go to the story, just what is Holgrain and and and what does it do? Sure. Yeah. So Holbrand Digital is a is a web design company that my wife and I founded 16 years ago with a focus on sustainability.

Tom Greenwood [00:01:19]:

And, really, it's sort of sustainability in all its senses, like, how do we run a business in a sustainable way? How do we work on projects that are doing something positive in the world? But, also, how do we, like, look at the environmental impact of digital technology itself. So those are sort of the 33 key things we've been exploring over the last 16 years. And, yeah, we we do a lot of lot of work for late charities and purpose of businesses and bit of public sector work. Okay. Fantastic.

Iyas [00:01:44]:

16 years ago, to get into into, I mean, obviously, a sustainability that and and consciousness has been around since, you know, forever. But but certainly in terms of it mainstreaming,

Tom Greenwood [00:01:54]:

It certainly hadn't mainstream by by around that time. So what led you into into going there? Yeah. It certainly hadn't mainstream, and that was part of the reason that we sort of went down that route. Well, I I had sort of been interested in sort of environmental issues, I guess, throughout my teens. And then I studied industrial design at university and And I was really interested in how design and sustainability fit together because, ultimately, design is about solving problems. So it seemed sort of logical to me that you would try to factor in broader problems than just, like, the core design brief, but also think about, like, what is the impact gonna be having socially and environmentally when you're working on a design. So I wrote my thesis on sustainable industrial design, and then that was a sort of a theme that basically just carried on that that was sort of my core core interest of, like, how do we integrate these sort of social and environmental aspect into design processes. But my wife, Anita, and I, sort of, we we really had this sense that sustainability was not mainstream around that time exactly as he said. And it was really frustrating, and we felt like there were there was a bit of a energy and excitement around, like, green things in the mid 2000 when we started, but it was very much it it was very much a niche. So there were lots of new companies coming on the market that were offering things that were more eco friendly, but they all they were all kind of targeted. I bought them. But it was obvious to me that, like, other people wouldn't. You know? They they they look a bit hippy, and, you know, they have, like, will have a logo with a leaf and a sort of sort of bit of an old fashioned font or, like, two hands holding a globe and things like this.

Iyas [00:03:28]:

And Yeah. Am I not I'm gonna have to redo my branding after this conversation I could tell. Yeah. That's all I ever did. Was I I mean, look look at my sight. It's yeah. Anyway, go on. Yeah.

Tom Greenwood [00:03:42]:

Anyway, But it was at the time, it was very much it was targeted at that kind of that green kind of segment of society who who that resonates with, then that's fine. But the thing that occurred to us was that sustainability, whether you're talking about, like, the environmental side or the social side, whatever it is. Ultimately, having products and businesses that are sort of harmonious with the world we live in should not be a niche. It should be something that is mainstream. Because if it's not mainstream, then it's sort of missing the point. So we started the company, really, with the aim of, like, working with those sorts of organizations that are trying to do something good in the world and are maybe kind of a bit stuck in terms of their audience because they are communicating sort of breaching to the converter in a way in in in that niche and work with them to try and broaden their audience, help them basically compete on a level playing field with the organizations that don't care as much as they do. And yeah. So that that's really sort of how we got started because it just seemed like that was something that needed to happen. If you're interested there, you mentioned

Iyas [00:04:48]:

I'm almost intrigued how people get there themselves. You said it had been something for you since your teens. The whole because because even I suspect even your choice of these thesis was probably a a minority sport at the time that you did it -- Yeah. Exactly. -- in terms of bringing sustainable design. I mean, I'm loving at the moment my my my elder sun is is studying product design, and I'm loving the fact that now it's just it is part of what they're at all. Yeah. And I think that's brilliant. Clearly, it wasn't when you were going through it. Why did you? Why why was the whole sort of nature and and sustainable thing for you? Why why was it a thing for you even even back in your team? Like, I know I know you run barefoot. You know? What's weird? Is the is the has nature always been a thing? I don't know. Is it with you?

Tom Greenwood [00:05:32]:

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it's a it's hard on to know. I mean, I did grow up sort of loving just sort of playing outdoors and so on. But then, you know, that's true of many people. I think I just had a sort of a innate sense that there were that we were living out of balance with the environment kind of in my teens. And there there was one thing in particular, and I don't it's hard to know how significant this was, but it certainly is one thing that I remember as a, like, a specific event was in I think it was in geography at school, and there was this page and textbook where they was talking about the greenhouse effect. You know, most people learn about the greenhouse effect, and, you know, you get a kind of general sense it. But our textbook had this these two maps next side by side, and one was a map of the world now, and one was a map of the world in a 100 years' time. And the the coastlines were all different. And -- Yeah. -- most people just kinda skipped over this page. oh, yeah. That's kind of vaguely interesting. Let's move on. Whereas I stopped on this page in absolutely sheer horror thinking, like, hang on. It I mean, maybe I was a bit sort of blind you know, that age, you sort of blindly believe everything that you're that you're told at school. Maybe you don't, but I did. I looked at this map and took it literally. I thought, like, a 100 years from now, this is what the world map's gonna look like. We've got some serious problems for me to solve, you know, London's not gonna be here. Now I think that that might have over egged it a little bit, but nevertheless, like, the theme the theme was the point they were making was was valid. And and I thought, well, a 100 years sounds like a really long time, but I'm quite young. So if it's gonna be like that in 100 years time, you know, if I live to 80, well, that's gonna be, you know, 70 year, what, 65, you know, ish years from now. Like, this would already have, like, be well underway, and this is gonna affect me my generation and and so on. So it's not something that's gonna happen in a 1000 years' time. It's not you know, it's it's relevant, which I think is what a lot of young people really feel now because is the, like, much more relevancy than it was back then. But I think that's one thing. You know, in addition to just a sort of a general sense of sort of appreciating nature and feeling that some of the things that we're doing aren't right and aren't gonna well, literally aren't gonna be sustainable in the long term. I think this that was one thing that really stood out to me and said, okay. Like, this is something that we need to be taking seriously, and we need to do something about. And it's interesting because I think for a lot of people who got there early. And in fact, now kind of why it's mains for me. I think a lot of it is

Iyas [00:07:57]:

when it's a visceral connection -- Mhmm. -- which is why I kind of asked the question because I think one of the challenges it's had getting on or taking off in terms of hitting the mainstream is that for most people, it's kind of an inter or most people in city it's an intellectual argument. It's oh, I look at that. Oh, I can understand that. I can see how the charts are going, and that's a terrible thing. And And, yes, I've seen the map, and that map is terrible. And, oh, oh, isn't it all isn't it all horrible? And I'll just go back and carry on living as I'm living. I think it's very different if you've had a visceral connection of actually, you know, having been out in nature, having enjoyed it, having touched it, or having had moments where something has just hit you like a ton of bricks, and that's a very different thing from, you know, just reading that they are seeing the the latest chart the latest IPCC report or whatever, which is which is far more intellectual, but harder to connect with. And I think you're right. Perhaps, you know, the the current generation are all being hit with it by like a ton of bricks. Right? Because they it it's whether or not they've had the visceral connection they are seeing, and it's creating an emotional reaction because it's it's coming hard, hard and fast. And I think it's interesting for those of an older generation. And now, obviously, a mine is even before yours. Make that sound like you're really old. But, actually, I'm really old. But, you know, For us, you know, yes, clearly, there was more on nature. But if if you were in the city, it really wasn't a thing. And even though you would hear,

Tom Greenwood [00:09:23]:

you didn't connect with it as much. was it the same for your wife, by the way? Well, she had her own sort of she grew up in Mumbai, and so she had a very different you know, obviously, a very different upbringing. Well, I think your On the one hand, you're much more confronted with, you know, environmental issues in terms of there just being a lot of just a lot of waste and, you know, they don't have all the systems in place to, like, deal with -- Yep. -- things in the way that you know, a lot of stuff here is outside, out of mind because we've got good kind of infrastructure to take care of things. whereas where's there, it's a lot of it is, like, very much just confronting. It's it's just there on the streets. But at the same time, they can become quite numb to it. I think a lot of people become quite numb to it there because that's just the way it is, and you can't. Like, in a way, you have to protect yourself from not getting emotionally connected to all the problems you see in front of you because there's just so much it'd be overwhelming. But she had a person experience where her the building that she lived in is, you know, tower block but got got flooded by the monsoon at some point because the monsoon they they were doing some maintenance on the building. time when the monsoon wasn't gonna come and the monsoon came when it wasn't expected, which, you know, again, is sort of something that's been happening due to climate change. And so all of their kind of, you know, Family, possessions, and things got ruined by by flooding, which is not something he'd expect in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So that kinda really hit her that something isn't right. the monsoons generally are very predictable. They're very consistent, but they're becoming increasingly unpredictable.

Iyas [00:10:49]:

Yeah. I know. Again, a very real impact of seeing seeing it happening. It's not -- Yeah. Exactly. -- you know, this this isn't oh, I I read it about somewhere far away. So as you got whole grain going, the whole grain digit Are you whole am I allowed to say whole grain, or do I do I need to go whole hog and go whole grain digital? No. No. You can say whole grain. I know what it is like to do work with marketing people. So you can't lose the second half of our name. So as you got whole windage still to going, When you first started, you said that it seems like the focus was on purpose led businesses to try and help them get their message out. Yeah. further.

Tom Greenwood [00:11:29]:

How did that work in practice? I mean, were you were you hunting, hunting them down? Or or or how did how did you get the business going? The honest truth is it was very hard. It took a very long time. The 1st few years the 1st few years were -- Well, for a fairly dry I'd say. Yeah. We we live we live, you know, we lived off plain rice for a few years. And I'm not you know, and neither is beneath we're we're not salespeople. You know, we we don't do Like, we're not good at, like, outbound sales or anything like that. So it was very much, like, a case of trying to just find a opportunities to get our name in front of people either by creating content, you know, talking about the things that we were doing and we're interested in or by, you know, attending and speaking events and things like that. And it was yeah. It was a really kind of slow start. And, also, because at that time, there weren't many businesses that actually identified themselves as being perhaps their businesses. So it was a very kind of niche market. And we've what we found very early on was interesting that there were businesses that we sort of identified as thinking like, oh, well, they're, like, you know, really puzzled. And then we might get an opportunity to talk to somebody there, and they wouldn't see themselves in that way. you know, it doesn't mean that they weren't others led, but that's just not how they'd framed it in their heads. So they weren't self identifying. So gradually, we just kind of Well, we did a lot of experimentation with our messaging and so on about how we how we talk about what we're doing and who we wanna work with and so on. And and and

Iyas [00:12:56]:

gradually, built excitation, and and that's sort of it all it all kinda just eventually spiral of of word-of-mouth, really. And it's interesting that whole thing about whether people I'd done fires purpose or or values. Like, I mean, it's I think for some people, it's just so innate. You just don't see it that way. Yeah. certainly had that feeling when I was growing my agency and and got known as the quote, unquote, conscience of the board. And it was never said in a good way. It was always almost said as as as, you know, is this the thing that's holding us back. Right? The board has a conscience on it. Right.

Tom Greenwood [00:13:28]:

dearly.

Iyas [00:13:30]:

But it was interesting. That was the first point at which I realized what was bloody obvious, which was that values were kinda central to me and how I did things and how I grew businesses. It's like, you know, it it's like the fish not noticing the water. It's kinda this was this is kinda how you would do business. Why wouldn't you do business this way? Yeah. But then you also get people, especially with purpose who you know, it's it's either a passion that they've fallen into or quite often, I think, in reality with with entrepreneurs. It's it's an opportunity I've spotted. And it just so happens that that opportunity is is aligned with a purpose rather than the I was always incredibly purpose driven. And on more than one occasion, I've seen people who've done that and started just because it's a business opportunity. And over time, the purpose has become genuinely very, very headed in the heart of their thinking. Yeah. And it's almost been like a reverse transformation where it's very much started as a business opportunity. but it then turned into a real passion for doing something that was actually good and a genuine one. I mean, I I don't think, you know, you you one can be cynical about it. But when I talk to those people, it overtakes him. I think, you know, that's just standard. He there were the way the brain works. If you think about it a lot, eventually, it begins to resonate.

Tom Greenwood [00:14:40]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Iyas [00:14:42]:

So so the start though was very much those businesses, and and, yes, I understand. The rolling start of an of an entrepreneur who isn't by nature a sales machine. up with that one too. But I noticed now that company very much leads more with the the greening of digital presences. Yeah. And so was there a point at which kind of it transformed to we're gonna broaden the base,

Tom Greenwood [00:15:06]:

but make sure we have an impact from a digital perspective. We we reduce the digital impact of of environmental impact of digital with whomever we happen to work with, and I'm not saying here you're gonna leap into British American Tobacco tomorrow, or has it been a continuation that says it's still gonna be the same profile of customer, but we're just gonna make sure that we're also minimizing the impact of their digital presence. Yeah. It was very much the latter. So in terms of the, like, the the criteria of who we work with. I think one of the things we learned within the first few years is that we needed to actually be clearer about what that definition was And, actually, when we defined it more clearly, it did sort of this sort of open out. And and, yes, there weren't necessarily that many people who self identified as, like, purpose their businesses. at that time, but there were a lot of organizations that were interested in sort of what we had to bring to the table, particularly in the nonprofit space or public sector space And then the the purpose of the business side, I think, is something that's grown as a market kind of in parallel with that time. So now that's actually kind of a bigger a bigger segment. So over time, we haven't really had to, like, narrow. We haven't really needed to broaden that out because, actually, we found that there isn't -- Yeah. -- there is enough of a market there is actually way bigger than what we could service. If only we communicate what we're doing properly and we know how to to connect with those people, But then the digital sustainability side really came in about 6 years ago when we did our first certification as a b corp. And during that process, one of the things that you get asked in the in the B Corp certification process is about, like, the how you measure and reduce the environmental impact of your of your company. And and there's various different aspects to that in terms of, like, your operations and your energy and waste and so on. And but one of them is about your products. And how do you, you know, how are you doing that for your products? And because we're a digital agency, we got a bit stumped on this question didn't know the answer. We asked lots of people we knew, you know, in the digital space, and they all said, well, there is no impact to digital technology. It's 0. It's what everybody told us. Like, Right. Stop wasting your own time. Just it it's 0. Just put type 0 in the form. So So we but we weren't we weren't really sure what the right answer was. So we contacted the the assessment team, the be you know, the B Corp assessment team. and asked them, and they came back with exactly the same answer. They said, oh, well, you just put you just you don't even put 0. You just leave that section blank. because it's not relevant to your type of business because you don't make real things, which which was interesting. And so and we thought, okay. Fine. So we left it blank the first time around. but that was really the beginning of, like, the penny dropping because I realized at that point that this seemed really strange. because when I was back at, you know, beginning of my career doing industrial design, One of the things that I was doing was calculating the environmental impact of the physical products that we were designing and working out how we could reduce that. And that was something that had been really fascinating. Then when I moved into the digital space, that had been completely left behind. Because I, myself, thought that, like, while there is no environment in fact of digital technology. So that restarted, like, me thinking and basically kicked off a kind of an internal research project at ingrained. where we thought, well, we need to find this out. Like, fine. If it's 0, great. We want it to be 0. But how do we know? No one's provided us with any evidence. It just needs to be an assumption that everybody's making. So we set about looking for some evidence. And, basically, what we found by going down that rabbit hole was that there wasn't a huge amount of academic research out there at the time, but the stuff that there was basically said that digital technology has a huge environmental impact, primarily through, like, energy consumption -- Yeah. -- in data centers, in telecoms networks, in, you know, all the 1,000,000,000 of devices. But, also, you know, other aspects like electronic wastes and water for cooling data centers and so on. So that was really kind of a very eye opening period for us and kind of led us down this path of saying, well, if we are an agents if we're a digital agency with a focus on sustainability,

Iyas [00:18:58]:

now that we know this, we need to lead on this topic and really make it kind of central to the work that we're doing. Yeah. No. I mean, I think it's one of those things that in being in this sector, once you see it. It would be lying to to to pretend not to have seen it. So it's not even a question of unseeing it. It's just, yeah, your your conscience will not rest. Now that we know what we have to do with it. But let's carry on pretending that it does nothing. Right? Yeah. So did the book ins in incidentally, does the book come after that or before that? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. The book came after that

Tom Greenwood [00:19:30]:

a a few years after that. So that was so that whole process I mean, I was saying 6 years ago, may may have been nearly 7 years ago now because time's playing. But there was a few years where we were very much figuring out, like, how do we calculate the impact of our own project? how do we reduce that in terms of our, like, making changes in our design process and our development process and, you know, how we host websites and that sort of thing. And then there was a point where we realized that we we've learned so much over the a few years, but we seem to be sort of a a bit of a lone voice in talking about stuff and and looking at this stuff. And I and I just have this sense that every important topic well, probably in most industries, but in the digital side, every important topic has a book. And there's all sorts of books about, like, you know, security and privacy and accessibility and user experience and, you know, you name it. There's a book on it, but there was nothing that's not quite cheap. There was one book that was to deal with the environmental impact of digital technology. But I I sort of felt like there was something we had learned a lot. His book was he was well ahead of the curve. He was actually kind of really was, like, kind of the the absolute pioneer But because we were actually a few years later, actually, things had moved on, we'd learned a lot sort of that came after his book. And I felt like what we actually need is that we need to have a book out there that basically gives people a good starting point, gets them excited about this topic and feeling like they have the practical tools to do something.

Iyas [00:20:50]:

Yeah. So that was so that That was why I wrote it, and that came out just over 2 years ago, about two and a half years ago. Has the uptake been I mean, I know it's clearly it's not a it's never gonna be a a don the carrier book or have even got his bloody name right. It's

Tom Greenwood [00:21:05]:

never gonna be on that list, but is it is it something for which there's been an appetite you seen an appetite out there for it? Yeah. There has been. I've been I've been really pleasantly surprised that the I mean, I didn't know. I did write it kind of thinking, like, well, maybe nobody will be interested. But, no, it's been really, really well received, and and it's been great to hear. I've had, you know, a lot of contact from other companies or, you know, freelance designers and developers and so on who who have written to me saying, like, this has changed their perspective on, like, their industry and the work they do, and and led them in a new direction, which is which is really exciting to hear. So one of the things I always find with sort of certainly agencies when we're more purpose led is is is on one hand, there's a selection of clients, and you mentioned that, you know, you're

Iyas [00:21:49]:

you have to think about that very early on. And some of the dilemmas that throws up, you know, there's always the dilemma of, yeah, my pipeline is low. My utilization is low. our cash flow is running out, and and now I've got always your British American Tobacco, and you you need to find a new resident villain So I I I I don't know. Shell. Let's go with which I I think I think will go military. look at military. Who shall we go for? Lockheed Martin. Lockheed Martin. Let's go for Lockheed Martin, rocks up at your door. Thank you. This is gonna be Martin is gonna be my resident villain for the next six episodes. Sponsored, you heard it here first from Tom Greenwood. Lockheed Martin rocks up at your door with that you know, with that 700 k contract, then things are looking low. Cash flows are you gonna start letting your laying people off, and and you wonder what to do about it. And we we always hope we never get there. I I don't wanna ask you that question because I'd say you've given that something. But I think you've you've got an additional thing that you've created here that I'm intrigued to explore, which is Lockey Martin hasn't made it in the door. You've you've you've kept them at bay. Right? But you've got someone coming in, lovely business, genuinely looking to make an impact. Their idea of what they want from their website is something that you're looking at with horror, not from branding perspective as anyone looking at my website would. But from oh my god. If we're gonna implement this this, yeah, the emissions that coming out this are gonna be ten times what they ideally should be. Are there a lot of trade offs that you have to go through in order to make a sustainable design. And secondly, as an agency, how do you approach that with clients who perhaps,

Tom Greenwood [00:23:30]:

you know, really want something a bit different? Yeah. It's a great question. And it's very mixed we found in practice. So there's a lot of kind of core stuff that we can do, which which, to be honest, is just is just good practice in terms of, like, design and development. And so there's a lot of stuff you can do to make things really efficient. that have no downside whatsoever. It's only an upside because if you make things more efficient, then they'll not just be better for the environment. They'll also load faster, and you can reduce hosting costs and, you know, probably improve user experience along the way and so on. So there's a lot of actual upsides to the, like, core best practices. But then you get into sort of what you're talking about, whereas you have a client who has a specific vision in mind of, like, some very, you know, complex features or very kind of media rich online experience that maybe is very computationally heavy and is gonna require a lot of energy consumption. And then I guess there's a sort of a 22 things to discuss with the client. 1 is what is the problem we're really trying to solve here? for your organization and is the thing you're proposing the best solution and have an honest conversation around that -- Yep. -- and then explore what other solutions might be. Because then you can validate whether this flashy thing is actually what they need or whether it's just some fun idea that they came up with. So some of the time, you might actually better persuade them to do a different solution that would be more efficient and still meet their needs. May maybe even meet me that needs better. However, there are cases where you may find that what they're asking for well, either it is genuinely what's best for them, or do you can't persuade them. Like, you know, had a dog with a bone. And, like, this is what they want, and that they're not gonna let go of it. And and sometimes it might literally be a case of, like, well, if you don't if you won't give this to us, we'll just have to go somewhere else. Yeah. And and then and then for us, I think well, for me, I think, in my mind, the best thing we can do there is actually try to figure out from a technical point of view. What is how could you implement this in a more efficient way? So they do get what they want, but you do it. You look at kind of how people normally implement that, and you find the inefficiencies, and you try to sort of engineer them out. so that you're actually okay. It's not as efficient as it would be if you'd done it without those features. But for what it is, it's kind of best in class. And I think that's probably a decent compromise.

Iyas [00:25:51]:

It is interesting when you have the client discussion in terms of who you work with. And and we always have that in consulting or agency world is where where do you draw the line? And I you know, and I've seen multiple different ways to draw it You know, I've I've come to my own way of drawing the line, which is fundamentally around whether the core business of the organization is is is one that I think is problematic -- Yeah. -- because there is always discussion that if if it's you know, can we can we engage with company and just take them on. Can we can we take on Lockheed Martin and and turn them into Tulip Growers? And because we're so good that that business transformation. Right? We're gonna fundamentally evolve their business. But that's one thing. But I think the other the other thing is when it when it is, as you say, when the client actually is a good client, they are doing some good things. they are trying to make a positive difference, but there's a couple of ideas in there that you look at. You say, that could be done a bit differently. Yeah. Exactly. And I think, yeah, I I think that the approach of saying, okay. Well, we'll just take them on the journey as far as we can at some at this point in time and perhaps in future, we can take them a bit further is is almost certainly the right approach.

Tom Greenwood [00:26:59]:

So, yeah, it's a fascinating parallel. It's it's one I hadn't really considered. So Yeah. I think I think progress is progress. So if you can move the needle in the right direction, even if we don't always get as far as we would like, I think it's still still a good outcome.

Iyas [00:27:12]:

And so have you been finding that the approach you're taking now that you're past the initial tumbleweed days? that it's is it resonating enough? Is the business growing?

Tom Greenwood [00:27:23]:

Is the business working well off the back of it? Yeah. So, yeah, like I said, the 1st few years were were were pretty tough trying to just establish a name for ourselves and even find a market for what we're doing. But once we once things got moving, then I think we like I said, it's sort of really spiraled through word-of-mouth. And I think the whole the whole sector of published organizations in a kind of a general sense has really has really grown significantly in the last 10 years. Yeah. So I think we're we're lucky in a way that we've been quite well positioned ahead of that curve so that we were already here when people asking those questions and look looking for somebody who who was aligned with what they're thinking now. So, yeah, we've been lucky that, you know, like any business, there's there's good years and there's less good years. But on the whole, like, most of the time, we've we've had more demand than we can handle, which which is a good place to be. And touchwood, we're still in a good place.

Iyas [00:28:22]:

Yeah. No brain. How how is it resonated with the team has the team as it's grown with you? Have they come on board? How big a factor for them coming on board has been the approach that you're taking versus needing a job and thinking, well, this looks like quite a good place to work. Yeah. It's

Tom Greenwood [00:28:39]:

I'd say it's quite mixed. So we get people who apply specifically because they're really excited about sort of what we stand for as an agency, and they wanna be a part of that and help take it further. But then we get people who apply for other reasons where maybe I don't think we have anybody who, like, is disinterested, but there are people who are is sort of it's just not the most important thing to them. But often they'll come on you know, for example, like, maybe a developer might apply more because they're excited about the technical standards within our team, which actually has partly been driven by that focus on sustainability and trying to let engineer out efficiency and so on in efficiency. So So sort of indirectly, they might not necessarily be sort of applying because of the sustainability aspect, but other aspects of what that has led to kind of attract them in. So, yeah, it's a bit it's a bit of a mix. Yeah. And and and that's interesting. I mean, I quite often have

Iyas [00:29:34]:

that debate with Some of the purpose led consulting crowd where, you know, the mantra is everybody must care app absolutely, and it must be the single driving force for them. you know, the the whole start with y movement, and and I wish more people read the book rather than just read the title. And the reality that, actually, it's okay if you're earning a crust and the the purpose of the work that you're doing is so that you can feed your family. You know? There's there's nothing ignoble It's a it is it's a a thing to be doing. You don't have to be a climate or a social warrior. to be working virtuously. Yeah. Right? And and I think sometimes we can kinda cloud that and and expect, well, if they're not than they're than they're in some way. That person, is it some way inferior or or isn't as as and, really, it's none of that. It's we all have our different drivers and provided we're not using those for ill, it's actually fine to be doing a day's job to be putting food on the table. And that's, you know Absolutely. No problem with that. Yeah. Exactly. If they're good at what they do, I don't know if these are put in some direction. You talk about yeah. Absolutely. And and I think but that's the thing they're pulling in the same direction. I think the beauty of then going and working in an organization that is more purpose led is they can take you a bit on that journey. And, again, you may never end up on the complete right end of the belter, but you'll certainly have moved along by virtue of working in an organization where those purposes and those values and purpose are are absolutely front and central and crucial to how the organization wants to work. Yeah. But it's fascinating because, again, we always talk about is the younger generation all looking for the purpose led organization, and they won't go and work anywhere else. And I think to some extent, more so than my generation, for sure. but I don't think it's as black and white as people make out. No. I don't think it is.

Tom Greenwood [00:31:22]:

And I think there's a lot of people where they look at it as sort of an icing on the cake where it's not the main thing they're looking for. But, yeah, so you get to work on some stuff that they feel is having a positive impact, then, you know, they're happy about that. But then equally, there are, like you said, there's people who maybe don't really have any particular interest on knowledge on kind of the environmental issues or social issues. But then they learn about it along the way, and they and they get really interested. And, you know, it might not become, like, a core thing in their life, but it's become something that they then

Iyas [00:31:51]:

become more aware of, and it has sort of a knock on effect. Yeah. And they'll start changing small habits that nobody hears of, and it it kinda snowballs. Right? Even if it never turns into them, you know, joining the stop oil or anything. Right? because it it's not only there. It's it's the the whole spectrum is is we need to move. So and and, Tom, where do you see a whole grain digital going? Are you one of these people who says, oh, I've got a vision and I'm gonna be 5 years or that on 10 years? Or are you one of those people? Like, we're doing good work. We carry on doing good work, and that's fine. How do you see the evolution of whole grand digital going forward? Yeah. It's interesting. I generally have been one of these people that's had a vision of where we're going

Tom Greenwood [00:32:31]:

few years ahead, but it's normally been more of a vision in terms of, like, what we'll be doing and the impact we'll be having rather than I've never really been bothered about conventional metrics. I don't really care how big the company is. Yeah. As long as it as long as it's doing good work, having a positive impact, and it and it's profitable, then, you know, those things are sort of relatively relaxed about. But but I feel like we're at an interesting point now where things are changing very quickly. And so my mind has sort of shifted in in terms of what it means to have, like, a long term vision like that because I feel like Mhmm. You know, 10 years ago, yes, like, digital technology was still relatively relatively new in terms of being a core part of people's day to day lives. But but it well, it didn't change it hasn't changed that much over the last 10 years. You know, the iPhone was in the i the iPhone was released in 2007. that was kind of you know, that was revolutionary in terms of putting the web on small devices. But then since then, we've just had incremental improvements of that. essentially for 15 years. Whereas now we're at this point where you've got, you know, you've got AI transforming things at a rapid pace and I don't think anybody truly knows what that means. And then you, you know, you've got -- Everybody claims to know, though. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Everybody, what he'd like us to know. I'll send you a text. Do what it means, Tom. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even even Sam Altman and Elon Musk don't really know what it means. And then you've also got other things. You know, like Apple, you know, is releasing its the VisionPRO sort of augmented reality headset. I don't know, you know, what that will mean, but I I think that we're at a point where things are gonna change again very quickly. And so I think where I see whole grains standing in that is is essentially being being an organization that can help these purpose led businesses or nonprofits as well as, you know, public sector, navigate the rapidly changing digital world and figure out how do they use it to achieve their mission. And how do they navigate the challenges that come without from a kind of, you know, an ethics perspective from an environmental perspective? Because there are, you know, new and unknown issues that arise, like, benefits that come from these new technologies, but there's also issues that arise. So I think what I what I hope Holgren will become moving forward even if I don't know what the service offerings will be is is basically an organization in that space that can help help these organizations make sense of this like, rapidly changing digital world and use it responsibly. Yeah. That's where I I'd like to see it going. Yeah. And it's interesting.

Iyas [00:35:07]:

The in not being the driven by the traditional metrics. It's it's you'll be unsurprised to hear. It's a common theme with a lot of people who I speak to in the podcast. but it it's also quite interesting that I think certainly, if I think of 1, and I and I wouldn't name her for a big because I I I don't don't wanna call Bad Karma up just in case by naming someone. But but I know yeah. There there there was one sort of agency head who I spoke to who very much wasn't driven by numbers at all. She she was thinking, you know, if we grow to 25, 30 people, that's that's actually as big as I want it to be. The challenge she has, and I know her we we've been working together quite closely since is because she does what she does well and the agency does what it does well. By definition, people get attracted into it both sort of employees and customers, and it's suddenly like twice the size that she'd envisaged. But what that's allowing is just twice the impact. like, or more than twice the impact because it's not a linear it's not a linear relationship. And I think that's one of the interesting things when you're looking at it and thinking, actually, I'm not driven by how big we are or how profitable we are and driven more by doing doing things well and creating impact in a good way. I think that generally, if you do that really well, it ends up snowballing. And -- Mhmm. -- and and you do end up with something that's possibly bigger bigger than you'd ever intended it to be.

Tom Greenwood [00:36:27]:

Yeah. I mean, that that resonates perfectly with me. I mean, I Vineita makes fun of me because you know, I've I've always set these arbitrary caps on how big I would like the company to be in terms of team members just because of my own comfort zone of, like, you know, I I never really went into this wanting to wanting to have all the responsibility of employing people and managing a team and so on. And so I've always sort of said, oh, I don't really want more than 5 and then it was eight people, and then it was twelve people. And and now we've, you know, got 25 people. And I I don't it was about a year a year ago. I gave up. I said, like, I'm just punishing myself now by setting these arbitrary. Yeah. Yeah. I was just causing myself stressed by, like, worrying about it. I need to just let it be what it is.

Iyas [00:37:15]:

It's not counting. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. No. And I I I, again, I had the same. And for me, as I say, for me, it was more values than purpose. It was putting values very front and center news. going from 1 1 digit team to a 2 digit team to a 3 digit. And then I'm like, oh my god. Yeah. That that wasn't the plan, but but I guess something must be working. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Tom Greenwood [00:37:38]:

Celebrate the win. Absolutely.

Iyas [00:37:42]:

Absolutely. Well well, listen, Tom. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you and hearing the the story of this evolution, fascinating how how and where you're taking it. And and I think keeping that same mindset of figuring out where this next kink in the in in the curve, which AI is triggering. helping to to see yeah. None of us know the answer, but how can we in the same ways when digital first took off, how can we figure out how to try and both mitigate the the risks, but also maximize and maximize the good that should come of it if we use it well. And I think, sort of positioning there is is gonna be an interesting thing, and I'm looking forward to the book. Although, I suspect there's a few chat GPT books that have already been altered, but my my chat GPT on on on how to make AI ethical. But, no, looking forward to see where where where our whole grain goes. Thank you so much for making the time to talk to me. That's been a pleasure. Thank you.