It’s interesting that regardless of the times and the business environment, regardless of the financial, political or societal position, people are a constant.
In today’s world we talk about Psychological Safety, in the 80’s and 90’s it was Emotional Intelligence and before that it was Management Theory.
So as business evolves so does the development of people and one could argue that the way we lead business is conforming with how we see society and that business is a large part of how we see society. It’s a chicken and egg conversation.
So it’s no surprise to me that the concept of an Employer of Choice is starting to become a term used for aspirational businesses. It’s becoming recognised as a way to be ahead of the pack, to gain an advantage over the competition by being unique.
I don’t believe it has yet caught on with the majority and there in lies the opportunity.
The majority of businesses are not yet prepared to take that massive leap forward, but for progressive and more nimble businesses, this is the opportunity to become a leader in their industry.
Clifford Morgan speaks to this subject
Clifford Morgan Director, Lumian Consulting
Stephen Sandor CEO of Inspiring Business
Inspiring Business website
welcome to the Inspiring Business Podcast. My name's Steven Sandor, and the question I'm getting from business owners recently is how do they navigate their way through this next cycle? It seems that finding and keeping employees is the biggest issue at the moment, closely followed by inflation and interest rates. And we are going through a number of iterations when it comes to employment. pre pandemic it was more an employer's market with high unemployment and relatively high levels of skilled and non-skilled labor availability and this kept wages in check, and when the pandemic came along with massive uncertainty, some employers took the traditional approach of cutting expenses marketing staff and stopped investing in their business. And some businesses used this downtime to improve their efficiency and redirected their teams to looking for ways to improve their marketing message, to improve revenue. Some took the time to clean up and improve processes and systems. Some also looked at staff training and development, and this was all an investment in their business. We now face a different set of pressures, but not dissimilar. There are supposedly staff shortages, but the unemployment figures are increasing, so I'm not sure who to believe here. Anecdotally in some industries they find it hard to find qualified staff, but employers are having to now consider the the requests from some employees to work remotely, and that requires a different mindset. And recently there's been a piece of legislation that allows employees to discuss their salaries with other employees. I'm not sure that they will, but I've spoken about this on other podcasts where this is potentially an issue with what's called internal payroll inequity. It's where two people are doing the same job and paid differently. Now there is the risk that this will be exposed, and you as the business owner, employer, you'll have to deal with that. And to add onto all of this, we're looking at inflation increasing and the potential of that fueling wage rises. So all of this is bringing another level of anxiety into the mix, not that we needed any more challenges to running our businesses. The challenge for many business owners is that they are a frog in a pot, and each week it's getting a little hotter, a bit more uncomfortable, and then unfortunately something breaks. their health deteriorates a relationship breaks down. A key staff member leaves a key customer decides the services or product. They're not cutting it, and they go to a competitor. And then the business spiral continues. And the lesson from the pandemic, if there was one, was that you need to be flexible. The experienced owners understand that the current environment is just another cycle. It's not good or bad, it's just a cycle. And to get to the other side, they need to have a plan. It's most likely that the plan before, during, and after the pandemic was different in all three scenarios. I call rigid flexibility. Your strategy is clear, but your tactics need to be flexible and there is clear evidence that the employers who stuck by their employees were loyal to them, are now being repaid by those employees, and it's giving them a clear advantage over their competitors. But many businesses just bounce along hoping to make it through, and some make it and some don't. What I do know is the owners who asked for help and didn't try to work it out all by themselves made fewer mistakes. So if you're not sure what your next step Needs to be or should be, or you wanna stress test your ideas, then reach out to your preferred advisor to seek their counsel. And if you don't have one, then I'm happy to see if I can help. I can't help everyone because I have a specific set of skills working with smaller teams of up to 50 and who are wanting to create an employer of choice culture internally, and the owner does that by being what I call the lazy entrepreneur, focusing on what they're good at and let other people do what they're good at. the conversation you're about to hear with Clifford Morgan was recorded in December, 2022.Clifford Morgan:
A big thing at the moment that I am hearing from, uh, a lot of people is that it's not necessarily that the leader or the business owner did anything wrong and they, I didn't leave because of them, but they didn't do anything to keep me. So when, uh, a great opportunity comes they, they, they'll go, well, I'm not, I don't really have a really strong connection. I'm not getting, you know, uh, I'm, I'm having a great time here, but you know, I could have a great time over there for a little bit more money. Right? And a slightly different experience. Whereas if you are have a really strong connection and people feel the value of being grown and developed, and the fact that the business owner is investing in me, uh, and, and all those sort of things, then they're going, Hey, that's a great opportunity this is slightly more money, but I'm having a, a great time here. I feel valued. I feel supported. I'm growing heaps because the business owner is investing in me. I'm actually willing to sacrifice a little bit extra money to stay here because it's such a good culture. It's such a, you know, I'm, I'm such a great experience in the workplace.Steve Sandor:
Welcome to the Inspiring Business Podcast where we hope to inspire you, the business owner, and provide you with the knowledge and information so you can create a business that is scalable and ultimately independent of your daily involvement. I hope the information you're about to hear helps you navigate towards your success. My guest today is Clifford Morgan, the director of Lumion Consulting, and is based here in Brisbane, along with me, not actually along with me, but in the same city of Brisbane in Australia. Clifford served in the Australian Air Force for 17 years and is an endorsed organizational psychologist. Clifford works with businesses across the public and private sectors helping leaders within those organizations to become luminaries people of prominence. And we'll get into the name Luminary and Lumian. Obviously there's a relationship there, Clifford. So welcome to the Inspiring Business Podcast.Clifford Morgan:
Thanks, Steve. It's it's great to be here and thank you for the invitation. Yeah.Steve Sandor:
So we were connected, um, through Colin Lee, um, part of a networking group.Clifford Morgan:
We were, and uh, anyone who knows Colin knows how extensive his networking is and he seems to know everyone.Steve Sandor:
So we'll put the pressure on him to public publicize this podcast, Definitely. one, one of the things I, before we came on air, um, one of the things I asked is that maybe what we could do given that this is being recorded at the end of 2022, but being published in 2023, the, one of the things we could look at is from your perspective, you know, some of the challenges that the businesses that you've been working with, what they've faced and, and some of the solutions that you've helped them, um, uncover. But before we do that, sure. The listener would be interested in knowing a little bit more about your background and actually how you ended up getting to this point.Clifford Morgan:
Yeah, certainly. Uh, look, I, as you mentioned, I have a background in the military. So I was in the Air Force for a number of of years and I started out as what they call an airfield defense guard, which for those that don't know what that is, that's basically the infantry skillset, but used and applied to defend air bases. And I did that for a number of years. I deployed to Iraq and, uh, not necessarily defending an airbase. I was, uh, uh, an attachment defending the Australian Embassy in Baghdad back in 2008. Uh, and I kind of, uh, ended up kind of my time full, um, you know, in terms of full-time service as a patrol commander and a weapons instructor in the Air Force. That was never going to be a 30 year career for me so, uh, I was up for a promotion and posting, and I decided before they start shipping me around the country, uh, you know, the longer it takes for me to get out and do something else, the harder it's going to me for me to do that. So I made the decision that I would discharge and I ended up studying psychology. So I went kind of right the way through. It's, it's fairly long process, but it, it took me eight years to become a fully endorsed organizational psychologist. That means I take psychology and I apply it in the workplace, right? It's, uh, I, I'm not, I don't do counseling. I'm not, you know, specializing in mental health and, and things like that. It's around really working with leaders. How do they. Uh, get the most out of their people at work and for their people. How do they get the most out of their work in life? Right. Uh, I like Adam. Adam Grant is a, an organizational psychologist over in the states, and he, he describes the, the role of an organizational psych as, uh, someone who studies how to make work not suck and I kind of like, I like that definition, right? I, I spend the majority of my time in that leaders, uh, working with leaders and teams in, in that strategy leaders team space and doing a lot of leadership development, a lot of team development and a lot of coaching. Uh, as, as part of that, my, I first got introduced to the coaching, uh, uh, side of things in the Air Force. I was part of, uh, standing part of the team that stood up the Air Force Leadership Coaching Program. And so I did a lot of, uh, work training leaders in the Air Force in coaching skills and also doing executive coaching in uniform before I kind of transitioned out and took that skillset. And now, Work with, with leaders in the civilian sector. Uh, you know, very much a along the same vein. So, uh, in a kind of a nutshell, um, you know, that's, that's my, uh, my journey. I've been kind of consulting and running my own business for the last six years. Uh, I, I, I say I kind of fell into business, uh, but it's been six years now and it's, it's successful. So, uh, yeah, that's kind of, you know, a real, the executive summary of my journey today, Steve.Steve Sandor:
Yeah. Thank you. Um, a couple of questions. One is the skills that you, um, that you attained when or opt obtained when you were at, in the military. What, what were the transferrable skills that you'd built up that you then either applied in setting up the business? Because I'd be really interested to know, y you know, coming out of basically, uh, a disciplined, uh, area where, you know, you wake up in the morning and they tell you what to do. Um, my son's going through, uh, ad for at the moment as a training to become a helicopter pilot and an officer, and then in the Army. Right. So I'm get, I'm getting that, um, chapter in verse of what they're going through. Yeah. But yeah, so just really interested to know, you know, what skills, um, or disciplines could you transfer? And then also, you know, what, what, what were the skills that you didn't have that you, you know, it's that I love that, you know, I, I dunno what I don't know. And how did you go about uncovering those?Clifford Morgan:
Yeah. Yeah. So there is so much, uh, one of the things I, I love about the military, particularly for young people, and, you know, coming outta school, there's so much in terms of the development of the individual that happens that is transferrable to any area of your life. As you mentioned, discipline is a, a large part, uh, of military life, and it kind of starts out where, uh, the discipline is imposed externally and so they are telling you what you need to, and, you know, they, they have the whole recruit training or the officer training where they kind of, you know, almost break you down and then build you back up into the, the model soldier or officer. And, uh, in, in that way, you are told what you need to do, you know, basically every moment of the day as you progress throughout your military career uh, in order to be really successful, you, you need to kind of take ownership of the discipline side of things. You can sort of sit back and be passive and just throughout your whole career just wait to be told what to do. However, you're not going to be a very successful, uh, soldier in, in that sort thing. You're not gonna be the one that's promoted and the one that's given the opportunities, uh, in, uh, really what you need to do is, is take that and be self-disciplined, learn to apply that, discipline yourself and do go above and beyond what you need to. And it's that self-discipline piece that I think is absolutely crucial for a lot of people in, in starting their, their business. Uh, you know, you don't have anyone to tell you what to do. You ha you don't have no boss and that's part of the reason why so many people go into business to be their own boss. But if you are, if you don't have anyone telling you what to do, you've gotta tell yourself what to do and so learning to be, you know, what discipline is and what's required in order to do that is a, a really big part of that. I think also, uh, you know, operationally you get exposed to so much in the military and the systems that are at play, the structures, and as you kind of start to get more experience in your military career, you get exposed to a lot of that and, uh, a big one that is transferrable that a lot of people don't necessarily, they can't necessarily articulate it, but it is transferrable to anything you do is just basic planning and the ability to sort of say, okay, this is, this is what the goal is, what the mission is, right? And what do I need to achieve the mission? Well, I've gotta do X, Y, and Z. Uh, you know, what are the, what are the explicit tasks that have been stated that I need to do? But then what are also the implicit tasks? If I'm gonna do these things, what are the things that aren't you know, necessarily obvious or haven't been stated that I need to do in order to make this list of tasks possible. Uh, and to kind of follow that through and then break things down into, you know, from large objectives into small tasks is something that doesn't come naturally to a lot of people, but for, for a lot of people in the military, because we're so used to that and we particularly those, if you've, uh, you know, like your, your son will be kind of having this drilled into him at the moment from a, from an officer training perspective, uh, you know, the, the ability to give orders, give a set of orders to the troops. In order to do that, you've got to, you know, go through and develop the plan so that you can then develop the orders to execute the plan and so that, that planning piece becomes, uh, I. It's almost second nature to a lot of people that transition out of, out of the military. And that's, it's something that people don't think about a lot, but it definitely, uh, is something that, uh, is very transferable and very applicable to starting your own business, particularly if you've got staff, because then, you know, you've got, you, you definitely need to develop the plan for yourself, but if you've got staff, you need to give clear direction to them. And if you are not clear on your plan, you can't give clear direction. So, uh, I, I think, you know, there's, there's, there's a whole lot of things that I took from military that applied in business, but they're probably two at the, the, the top of my mind that I think are most relevant.Steve Sandor:
That's really interesting cuz what, um, you know, a, a real basic management um, style, you know, you've got auto autocratic, um, participative, delegative, right? And obviously there's, there's lots of iterations of that now to try and deal with, um, you know, the, the more modern world. Um, but I wonder whether, whether there's a role for auto autocratic behavior, um, inside an organization and, um, and how, and, and if there is, uh, you know, how do you deliver that with compassion?Clifford Morgan:
Yeah, certainly. So what I, what I would say is that, um, the more advanced leadership styles, so whether you are talking about delegative or, uh, you know, transformational leadership, whatever kind of style that you are, you are looking at where you are going above just the transaction type thing. From, from my perspective, they're all built on a foundation, uh, that is much more, um, uh, I guess autocratic in, in that sense, right? It's, you can, um, or the, the, the skills in order to be autocratic are one set of skills and, you know, I'm talking about planning and, and telling people what to do, right? You d even when you are in the, uh, uh, if you prefer to lead in a, you know, delegated mode or, or, uh, or, um, you know, more transformational or, you know, if you're looking at situational leadership and you're looking at the coaching side of things and, and all that, um, if we say we wanna lead from a higher level, you've still gotta have those autocratic skills. Uh, and so, You know, I was, if I, and, and so often we, we talk about the difference between leadership and management and management's much more autocratic in the, in that sense and, uh, you know, there, there's all, you can have that debate going around and around in circles, but I, what I'll always say is that leadership is built on management. And, and management need leadership but leadership can't operate in a vacuum without management. And, uh, and so you need to have the planning skills. You need to have the ability to tell people what to do. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that you operate in a way where you always tell people what to do uh, that's not, uh, I, it's not what I think is the best, uh, part of leadership. Uh, it's not the, the way that helps people grow. Um, you know, in, in, in the book that I recently, uh, released, I, I talk about leadership. There's a primary responsibility, which is driving performance and getting things done. But there's also a secondary responsibility that, uh, that is around developing capability and if you, you can achieve performance and not develop capability, you, you, uh, you, you put a lid on the level of performance that your business will be able to achieve. If you are leading in a way where you develop capability, then your level of performance is always gonna be able to grow because your level of capability is continually growing as well. Uh, and so that's, you know, organizational capability, but the organization's made up of individuals, right? So it's growing people and so in order to lead in a way that you grow people, you need additional skills than just the planning and the telling people what to do and uh, and that's really kind of where I spend a lot of my time. And that's kind of the, the coaching piece and getting leaders to use coaching skills, uh, in the way that they lead to develop people. Um, so yeah. Yeah.Steve Sandor:
Uh, I mean we're, we're, our businesses are very similar in, in, I, I guess the, the, the way we deliver things that you're, you know, um, very different in. Uh, probably not different in our approach, but, but very similar in the, the problem we're trying to solve, right? Where, where businesses are, um, you know, they're trying to lead and, and they don't understand the difference between managing, um, and, and coaching, right? And, and their actual ability to be able to coach somebody as a employee where they're not solving their problem.Clifford Morgan:
the, you know, we've come outta 20 20 20, 20 21, um, we've, we're now finishing 2022. It's been a interesting couple of years for businesses, um, over the last 12 months for, for the leadership group. Right. Um, what, what have you seen as being the, the challenges, the major challenges that they've had, um, and, and you know, how has that manifested itself? How has it presented itself? And then what are some of the, um, you know, some of the tools, uh, that you've been able to help them with to overcome those challenges?Clifford Morgan:
Yeah. Look, um, I, I think, you know, I, I think if you ask, uh, anyone or you, you look at a lot of the reports that have been done in this space by, you know, different authority, um, you know, people or, or companies and, and things like that. There's, there's, to me, there's two that stand out, right? One is the leading in a hybrid or virtual, uh, kind of workplace. Uh, and, and the other is the retention of staff or the, the attraction retention, that war for talent type type thing. Um, In that first space, uh, I think, you know, un unless you are a particular industry and that there are some industries that just do not support hybrid or virtual work. Uh, and, and, and, and that's just the reality. But unless you're in one of those industry, I think that's, that's here to stay. Right? Uh, and, and people need to, people need to, um, just kind of be able to roll with that and, and make the most of that. And if you don't offer that, then, you know, that feeds into the, the second issue, which is the at traction and retention, right? People want that level of flexibility. So, you know, for me, um, there's. Yeah, I mean, there's a, there's a couple things at, at play, right? I, I think we went from being fully in the workplace and, and quite, you know, uh, in general inflexible, uh, in attendance and, and flexibility around working that sort of thing. Then we've gone, covid forced us to go fully in the other way, uh, and then, You know, we're trying to come back in, in the middle there somewhere and, and it's gonna, where that sweet spot is, is gonna be different for different organizations and businesses and that sort of thing. Uh, the, one of the challenges in that space for a lot of businesses that I see is that there's a almost a level of entitlement among the staff around, Hey, I, I, I, I should be able to work from home. I need to be able to work from home. And the, the conversation that I'm encouraging leaders to have, right? So there, there's a, a number of, um, organiza clients that I've, I've been working with and I've seen it, you know, a lot of places where they've gone, okay, cool, we're going to have a hybrid working arrangement. You are gonna, you know, work three days in the office, two days at home, whatever it is. And, and everybody's like, okay, cool. That's awesome. However, then whether it's a particular meeting or something happens in the office and it happens to be on one of the days off, you know, agreed upon days off for a staff member, that staff member turns around and go, oh, that's one of my days off I can't attend that. Sorry, I'm working from home. And you know, then it's a matter of having the conversation, well, hey, the organization needs to be flexible, uh, and staff to have, you know, days, days from home and, and the flexibility around when they're working. But at the same time, the staff need to have flexibility towards the organization. If there is something in the office on one of your rostered day off, then you, you need to come into that as well. Right? Uh, and the flexibility goes both ways. So having that conversation is really important, I think, for leaders to navigate the, the hybrid workplace, uh, kind of thing. The, and the other, the other thing is, is communication. If we look at, uh, virtual, um, virtual teams, high performing virtual teams, and they've, they've done some analysis there. They analyze the transcriptions of all the, all the communications. So phone calls, video calls, emails. What they see is that high performance virtual teams, they will do two things. One, they communicate about communicating regularly, and so they're checking in and they're saying, Hey, are you getting enough information as the quality and the quantity about the communication, um, the right for you? And that's going to change, right? What, you know, last month, uh, they might be, might have been getting enough, but then it might be a, a swing in a change of a project or there might be some issues with a client or different time of year, whatever it is, they might need more or less. And so they're constantly checking in to make sure that staff and leadership going both ways, get what they need. Uh, and the other one is that they talk about things that are not work. And so those incidental conversations that you have, uh, in, you know, as you are leaving the, the room, uh, after a meeting or before you're waiting for the meeting to start or whatever it is, making coffee there, that's where a lot of that informal information is where relationship is built. And so in high performance, virtual environments, they are really intentional about having those conversations. It's so easy in a virtual space to just get on, connect and talk about the task and then jump offline, right? And so you don't actually have the informal staff. So high performance virtual teams are intentional about asking the extra question that's not work related and, and you know, making time for that. And I think leaders and business owners in, uh, you know, moving forward need to, to be able to do that. Don't just rely on the, the times in the office to build team. Yes, you need to make the most of those times, uh, but make sure in the, um, you know, those days where people are, uh, working from home and that sort of thing that you're still being intentional about. You know, it might be an extra three minutes of conversation or you know, where you're having a video call, but you're still building, you're checking in, you're making sure that everything's okay. Um, and that, that becomes really important. Um, so that, that's kind of that hybrid work space. No, I love, I,Steve Sandor:
I love. Um, analysis, if you like, of the, um, you know, the flexible inflexibility or the inflexible flexibility. You, you know, it's not just a one-way street, um mm-hmm. and there's, you know, there's this entitlement. It's not a privilege, it's a Right, you know, to have a job, all those things. Uh, it's a bit like, like what? Um, I spent, you know, 10 years in Papua New Guinea, seven of those as a HR consultant. Um, you know, before I went to P N G, I could barely spell hr. Um, and, uh, so, but, and one of the things that we, we spent a lot of time on, um, was job descriptions, right? And everybody rolls their eyes, particularly in small business, you know, when I say, you know, have you got job descriptions? Well, why would we need a job description when the person is, you know, they should be knowing they should know what their, their job is. And it's all around that capacity building the cap capacity and capability building. So if it's a, it's a bit like a business plan, you know, if you write a business plan and, and at the end of the year you go, oh, I've done my business plan, right, and it sits on the shelf, and then 12 months later you dust it off. Well, it's not a business plan, right? It's, it's just a document. Um, so it's a bit like the job description, you know, it's, it's, it's a tool that you can use to manage, help you manage people. Yeah. Build capacity, succession planning, all of those things. I, yeah, I love that distinction there. Yeah. Um, I, I, I've also got a, a, a bit of a b in my bonnet about the, about LMSs, uh, learning and management systems. Um, and you know, someone turns up for work and they go, you know, here's your desk, here's your computer, here's the l m s, I'll see you in a week. Good luck, Everything you need is there. Right. Um, and when I was going through my informative years, particularly in the area of salesmanship, I had a, I had a mentor and he taught me his craft. Yep. And, you know, it was that building that rela building that relationship with them. But what did I, I, you know, spending, you, you mentioned spending that little bit of extra time before or afterwards building those relationships. The challenges of virtual, you know, we're, I mean, we are doing this virtually. We could do it in a studio, um, you know, where we connect beforehand. We did a little bit of that, um, you know, bef before this. So there's al there's obviously the, the online challenges. What, what are, would you, would you formalize the informal. Um, you know, would you encourage people to have formally in, you said intentionally, but is there some way that they can drop it into their processes that sort of locks them into, we come back to that autocratic, you know, have a system, have a process, do it regularly. It becomes a habit.Clifford Morgan:
Um, yeah. So in terms of formalizing or. Uh, the informal, I, I guess I, my recommendation is find what works for you and your business. There are, there are different ways about doing that, and so think about some of the, the different ways that that might work. Now, there are are teams where, if we're doing some, you know, high performance teamwork around their meetings and, and what they do, I will often build some of that in, right? And so we do a bit of a, a, a check-in at the start before we, uh, and so in the agenda we have what I call a big talk question. And, and that's where we get to, you know, small talk is just this meaningless conversation to space. I talk about big talk being meaningful conversation where we intentionally ask a question where we learn about the people that we're working alongside. The, the reality is in psychology, we know that the more we know about a person, the more we can predict their behavior in the future, the more we trust them to behave in a particular way. So it's a, it's a trust building exercise, and it's a small 1%, uh, kind of, uh, deposit in the trust account. Uh, I, I guess it's the aggregation of o of that over time helps build trust, right? So you might ask a question. It might be, you know, who was the most inspirational person for you growing up. It might be, you know, what's, what, what's a defining moment in your career? It might be, uh, you know, what's really getting under your skin, uh, at work at the moment. Uh, you know, there, there, there's a whole range of them that you could ask, but it's, it's an intentional question where you learn about the person. And so whether that's in a, you know, a meeting context as I described, uh, you know, leaders if, again, if they're intentional about it, they might not formalize that, but they might be intentional about asking those questions when they're making coffee. Right, and, and so what I, when I'm coaching one-on-one business owners and leaders, often what I'll do is I'll say, what are the key questions that you could ask? Get them to think about and write it down, and then they've got a list there and you go, okay, what question are you going to ask this week? And so they might have a sticky note at the bottom of their, you know, monitor with that question written on it. And so as they interact with each of their staff virtually, they're asking that, you know, they've got a predetermined question to ask, uh, either at the start or at the end. And, and so, you know, it, it may not be one of those questions, it may just be, Hey, how are you going with, with work at the moment, given where, at this stage of the program, uh, project, uh, you know, where's your head at in terms of this? Or it might be, uh, that you've got goals that you'd set down, uh, you know, at the start of the year and it might be six months through. And, okay, this week I'm gonna ask everybody about how they're tracking with those goals. Um, what, whatever it is. Again, plan it out, be intentional. Sit down at the beginning of the week and go, okay, how am I going to connect with, with teams, right? And how am I going to, um, make sure that the staff feel valued, heard, connected, that they are, I'm intentional about building trust and relationship and rapport, all these things that, uh, staff really want at the moment. You're talking about kind of the attraction and retention piece. You know, people don't leave jobs, they leave leaders. And if they don't feel, uh, a big thing at the moment that I am hearing from, uh, a lot of people is that it's not necessarily that the leader or the business owner did anything wrong and they, I didn't leave because of them, but they didn't do anything to keep me. So when, uh, a great opportunity comes. They, they, they'll go, well, I'm not, I don't really have a really strong connection. I'm not getting, you know, uh, I'm, I'm having a great time here, but you know, I could have a great time over there for a little bit more money. Right? And a slightly different experience. Whereas if you are have a really strong connection and people feel the value of being grown and developed, and the fact that the business owner is investing in me, uh, and, and all those sort of things, then they're going, Hey, that's a great opportunity this is slightly more money, but I'm having a, a great time here. I feel valued. I feel supported. I'm growing heaps because the business owner is investing in me. I'm actually willing to sacrifice a little bit extra money to stay here because it's such a good culture. It's such a, you know, I'm, I'm such a great experience in the workplace. Uh, and so, um, yeah, I, I think you can formalize it and, and you can. Uh, you know, and again, it might be if your, your business is large enough, you've kind of got managers in, in there as a business owner, you might say, this is how we're going to have the informal connection with your managers. And so there's a consistent approach across the, the company. Uh, or you can just be informal about it, but you're being intentional about it either way. Uh, is is my big thing. So again, tailor it to your business. If, if formalizing it works great, if informal is, you know, is the way that it fits better with your culture, awesome. Just be intentional about making sure that you weave that in to your, um, you know, your work life.Steve Sandor:
That's gold. Um, thanks for, for that cliff. For me, it's, it's always been. Around, I guess the sense that I have of the, when I've been managed mm-hmm. it's the sense of whether that person actually, whether they genuinely care about me or whether they're just doing the job and I'm just doing a job and we are just here to do a job. Yeah. Right. And, and, and I think that's what you were talking about, you know, like at the, it's a great place to work, you know, I'm getting good money. You're a good guy. Good girl. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm having fun. Um, you haven't done anything really, you know, bad, um, to, towards me, but, but you know, there's, there's nothing special there. And then it's like, then you, you talked about, you know, the entitle. So is there then, you know, that entitlement that you should be doing more for me, you should be providing, um, you know, an opportunity for me to grow within the organization. That's your, that that's a, that's a requirement of being an employer of choice, is that you actually provide those, um, those opportunities. Um, is have I got that right there in, that is because for me, it's all about caring for the person, genuinely caring about, you know, how can I help you? My job is you are in my charge. Mm-hmm. and I use those words deliberately, you know, it's a bit like I'm the platoon commander and the decisions that I make, we could die. Yeah. If I get these. So I, I'm really care, but I want your input as well. So, but just on that entitlement part, is that, are we getting to, we're getting to a point where it's like the. Tails wagging the dog on, on, on this.Clifford Morgan:
It, it is, it, look, it's, it's really interesting, right? And it's one of those, we talk about the generational differences that are out there. I mean, I, I think re regardless of generations, uh, caring for people has always been a part of really good or great leadership. And, you know, John, John Maxwell says that people, you know, don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. Uh, you know, and that then you've got, you know, to use the military analogy, you've got people like General Jim Mattis, mad Dog Mattis, who's kind of seen as the, you know, the hardest military person out there. And he talks about, you know, as a junior leader, you need to love your troops. Uh, and, and, and so great leadership always has that caring part into it. But I, I think, uh, there's, there's been a, or traditionally. Uh, for, and, and I'll cook generalization, right? Um, you know, in, in, uh, past times it has been around just do your job, like this is your job and, and you will just do your job and, and that sort of thing. It's around doing the work as opposed to, um, You know, investing in the individual, uh, as much, that's kind of just a, a mentality that is, I guess, a carryover from past generations. So particularly, I, I think I speak to a lot of, um, uh, a lot of business owners who are, uh, a little bit older and, um, you know, not to make comment on your age, Steve, around your kind of generation, uh, but they, and, and they have this mentality of, we just need to get people to do the work. And people are entitled because they're not willing to do the work or they expect so much more. Uh, this is is one of the, the shifts I think in, in generation, if you look at the research, the millennials and Gen Y and what was it, gen or sorry, millennials and Gen Z, uh, and, well, I think it's generation alpha or whatever they're calling the, the people following them. The young ones. The young ones, that's right. The research said. That they expect, they want and they expect a greater level of development in their workplace. And what's really interesting to me is the nature of that development. They, they're actually not interested in being sent away for a two week leadership course, although they would or love that. They actually want that development to come from their immediate supervisor, their immediate manager and so it's the relationship piece, it's the, um, having the, the manager, you know, invest into them and develop them in their capability. That's what they want in the workplace, and that's what they expect. Now, as we've just said, that's always been part of great leadership and, and really it's, it's probably one of the key characteristics that I would say separates good leadership from great leadership is that the care and the investment in individuals and, and developing capability rather than just driving performance, uh, and getting people to do what they do. So generationally, that's what they expect if you want to keep people and, and this is where I think one of the, the big challenges, uh, you know, 12 months ago, Everybody was looking at how do I attract the, the best talent? I, I think there's been a shift, uh, to, to now how do I keep the talent that we've got? Because everybody's after the attraction peeps, you know, people are getting poached and all that sort of stuff. So how do I keep people, and I, I say, you know, this is, this is, to me, this is where coaching comes in, right? Because it's the skillset that you use to invest into people. And when you are asking them questions and they're having insight, when you have insight, you get a dopamine spike in the brain, which makes you feel really good. Dopa dopamine is not just a, uh, chemical that's released when you achieve something, but it's actually the, the core, um, the core focus for dopamine is actually motivation. So when dopamine is released, you become more motivated. Yeah. And then when dopamine is used by the brain, the byproduct is acetylcholine, which is, and the dopamine, adrenaline, cace, acetylcholine that combination is what allows us to focus. So at a neurochemical level, if we're coaching regularly and we are causing people to have insight and solve their own problems and do all those sort of things, they, they feel good, they're more focused, and therefore they're more productive and they feel like they're growing, they're achieved more, and so therefore they're more satisfied in the workplace. Now, if you are investing into your people and you're making them feel good, more motivated, more focused, more productive, more satisfied at work, why would they ever leave? Uh, and so this is, this is kind of why I think it's crucial for, for leaders to, yes, they need to drive performance and get people to achieve goals and do all that sort of stuff, but they've gotta invest in their people do that in a way that develops individuals, because that's, I think, the best way for people to, um, to, to retain the talent that they've got in their businesses, which is one of the biggest challenges that, uh, a lot of people are facing at the moment.Steve Sandor:
Yeah, I, I've got a, um, a theory, um, and I'm not sure whether it'll ever get adopted, but I was at a HR conference and, um, hmm. Sort of probably about 12 months ago now, and they were talking about performance management and, um, you know, KPIs and psychological safety and trying, uh, to not have such a high demand on KPIs, um, you know, on, on the measurement of performance. And that puzzled me. Um, because, you know, if you're in a business, you're, you're wanting perfor performance, so it's the context in which you actually deliver it then, right? So it's like you can either be a demanding and we have to perform. And so I, you know, I'll beat you over the back of the head until we, you do perform, or there's a, there's a, you know, there's an alternative approach for that. Um, and, and, and there's a lot, you know, there's a, I mean, you'd be far more, um, averse, uh, uh, you know, um, uh, knowledgeable about the psychological safety place than me. But for me it's really simple is, um, is if you train, so if you've got three, four people who directly report to you, and if you train those two people to replace you, so succession planning, right? You, you've built them up, they've built their skills up to, to do what they're. They're, you know, they do their job successfully and you train them then into replacing you um, and that's a part of your kpi, right? That's a part of how you get measured as how well you've trained somebody to replace you. Now, why would you do that? Right? Why, why would you want to do yourself out of a job? Well, you know, the traditional thing is, well, you get, you know, you'll get promoted. Um, but you know, you build capacity, um, because now you've got three people doing the same, uh, able to do the job, same job, not accountable for it, but capable of it. Yep. But the, for me, it, the, the true value in that is that if I know that the organization is going to support me regardless mm-hmm. of, of that situation well, how, how safe do I feel? And so, so I'm, I'm motivated to, to do that. What are your thoughts on that?Clifford Morgan:
I, I saw a hundred percent, uh, agree. Um, Steven, I, I, I think there's, there's three reasons why, right? There's the sustainability of the business, uh, uh, piece. There's, uh, the growth and performance piece. And, uh, and, and there's, or maybe maybe four right there, there's the, um, the individual, uh, kind of what we've just been talking about people feel like they're, they're growing and, and getting that great experience and the satisfaction in the workplace. And the fourth is the freedom for the business owner. So the, the first piece, right, sustainability, um, if, and, and this is, this is, uh, you know, core to the way that a lot of the military ch train is what we call one up training. And we, we do that because uh, you know, for me as a patrol commander, if I got taken out on the battlefield, who then commands the patrol, right? Uh, we, we actually need other people who are trained to be able to lead the com, the, you know, in the patrol commander's role to step in and, and lead. And, and so you think about that from a business perspective. What happens when you get sick? What happens if you wanna take a holiday? Uh, what happens? You know, if, let's say you break your leg and you can't go into the office for if, if you, uh, if you haven't trained people to do that, then your business is not sustainable. You become the linchpin, you know, the, the bottleneck for your organization, and eventually you are, you are going to break, you're gonna be burnt out. And, and so, you know, there's a, a real piece around sustainability, uh, for, for there. I, I think then around the growth and the performance, right? If you are doing that, what happens then is that you've, You've got people operating at their role, right? But if they are able to do your role, one, they're able to step up and give you a break if required. But two, they're able to perform their role in the context of, and the knowledge of the bigger picture, which is becomes really important because they can, you know, perform better. They're making decisions at a lower level before they're solving problems, before it even comes to you. But it's in alignment with all the strategic priorities that you are considering. Okay? So, so they're able to perform and then as the business grows, you are going to have to keep learning and they're going to have to be able to do a lot of the things that the business owner was doing 12, 18 months prior. And so if you are training them constantly, then you are able to sustainably grow rather than. Okay. You know, you're growing, growing, growing. Okay, cool. We not, we need to, you know, implement a new layer of management and, you know, we, we've gotta make all these big changes in order to, uh, structurally to, to be able to manage the growth. But if you haven't trained people on the way, then you know, they get promoted to their level of incompetence, right? And, and so that, that causes a whole lot of issues there. So there's a sustainable growth and performance piece to that as well. We've spoken about the, um, the ability for, um, uh, you know, that, that whole process to make it more satisfying for the individual workers, and they can actually see, oh, I, okay, now I, I feel like I'm growing up. I, I can see that. If I, there's a, almost like a progression pathway, right? And people will leave organizations and businesses if they can't see opportunity for them to progress in their careers. The average organizational tenure in at the moment is around about 2.4 years, uh, something like that. And, and people will stay, they'll, they'll say, okay, cool i, I'm learning, getting this experience. Oh, I can't see any opportunities to go up further in the immediate room. So I'm gonna go sideways into another organization, to a higher, higher level role and progress that way. And they, they jump between organizations like this. So if you are training them to do your role, they see the progression. So therefore they're willing to stay with the organization longer so that they can, um, you know, uh, experience that. And the combination of those. Gives the freedom for the business owner, right? They can actually step away and sort of say, Hey, you know, you guys, you guys kind of run, run the show for a moment and, and that allows the business owner to take a holiday to, you know, focus on other investments to, you know, uh, maybe manage managers second business, whate, whatever it is, right? Uh, and, and do all that with, with confidence. So I'm a hundred percent behind you on, on that one, Steve. I, I think training someone to replace you has so many benefits.Steve Sandor:
I get pushback sometimes. Um, so, um, I'm investing all this money in this people, and then they're, they're eventually gonna leave anyway, right? Because the business size is just start, can't accommodate them. They're gonna get to a point where, and I'll go, why is that a bad thing? Mm-hmm. Why is that? Why is that such a bad thing for you? That you've invested in an asset and then they've gone off and they may actually go off to a competitor or whatever it is, build skills. But if you've created an environment where they are, they, they trust and care for you. I would suggest that those people become an advocate for your organization, potentially a referral source. Potentially. They'll come back with greater skills that someone else has invested in and you in, you benefit from that. It's when you, it's when you have this, you know, the reason a manager would not train somebody is that they're scared. That they're scared that they're, someone's gonna take their job. They're scared that someone's gonna find out that they're not doing their job. you know, all those types of things. And if you are scared that, you know, you're gonna invest in people only to lose them, well then you'll never invest in in them. And so you'll never benefit from that. But I love, yeah, I, I'm, I mean, it's a real, it's a real, um, for me, it's one of those things the PNG just taught me, you know, so, so there's no point in being colonial in your management behavior with people, because if you've got a white skin in PNG, you're not trusted by the, by the national people because of, you know, 60, 70 years of, of colonial colonialism. Right. Um, and, um, it's not that Papua New Guineans aren't good at business. They are very good at business. They're just not experienced. They, they, you know, they've may be second generation in, you know, of coming out of university in the seventies, um, in us, maybe second generation, whereas we've had, you know, hundreds of years, um, if not, if not more than that. Um, we, we could keepClifford Morgan:
going, couldn't we? I'm enjoying it. Yeah. No. Yes.Steve Sandor:
We, we, let's do it again. Um, we're, we're, we've, I'll try and keep these two under an hour if I can. Um, so the great resignation, um, I just thinking about that, what, what were your, what are your thoughts or, you know, was it real or was it, um, just people shifting sideways and what are you seeing in the workforce? And that's that re retention, you know, I call it employer of choice. You know, creating environment around so that people stay with you don't leave. Um, but if they, if they wanna leave, then, you know, go with blessing. Um, and then, yeah. So just on your thoughts on, on, you know, where, where are we in that whole cycle of the great resignation? Or was it a great, um, you know, was it a fallacy and just people deciding that they wanted to go into business on their own, and then there's gonna be this great, they realize that running your own business is not, you know, not what it, um, could be well, it's harder. Running a business is not being a technician. Right. We all know that. Um, so yeah, just your thoughts on that.Clifford Morgan:
Yeah. Look, I, I think so the, the great resignation is there's a whole lot of thoughts, uh, around that and a whole lot of commentary. I think it was overblown. Mm-hmm. Uh, I, I think, you know, was there a move away from or towards, I guess the, the gig economy and, uh, you know, being project based work where, you know, you're subcontracting back and all sort of stuff. Yeah. Undeniably there's a shift towards that. Uh, particularly here in Australia. I, I don't think we've seen the mass, uh, exodus that was, you know, taunted. I, I think, you know, I, I, I think it was overblown in the states, but you know, that it definitely was, they felt it more than what we did here. Uh, but I, I, what I would say is that there is so much opportunity for our staff these days for people to get work. Now, whether that is with another company, whether that is, uh, you know, by themselves starting their own small business and kind of operating as a, a sole trader and doing, you know, operating in the gig economy and all that sort of stuff there, the, the barriers to entry are so low. To so many different options now and so people have more options and therefore with more options, some people are going to, you know what, whatever the options are, there's gonna be groups of people that will go and, and pursue each of those options. So I, I think the, and, and the stigma to change, the stigma to, uh, to leave a workplace, to, to quit, to, uh, go and start your own business, all that sort of thing the, the risks are lower, the barriers to entry to lower, and the, the stigma associated with that is, is, you know, almost gone these days. So all those things that might restrict people leaving in the past are, are no longer there and so therefore it's so much easier for people to leave and, and I think that's just the current state of play. I think there are going to be, um, Um, and, and, and so, you know, a again, it is kind of why what we're talking about is so important in order to retain people. Uh, I, I think it will be, there will be a shift back. I, I was, uh, uh, speaking at an event recently where we had, um, Jane Chan, who, you know, a couple years ago was a Australia's number one hr, um, voted a Australia's number one HR practitioner or something like that. And so she'd done a bunch of analysis on the, the current trends and, and talking about all the different, uh, you know, contributing factors to the, the current environment. It's very much kind of in the employer or employee's favor. I, I think, and she was saying in time it will swing back. And, and I agree with her in that particularly as some of the macroeconomics, uh, start to come into a play and higher interest rates and the cost of living going up and all those sorts of things, people will want secure work. And so there will be, you know, things will swing back into the, the employers favor a bit before I think finding a bit of a, I don't, I don't know if we are gonna find a, a, a normality a again, but mm-hmm i, I think there's been the, the instability of covid and a, a lot of the flexibility that's been, uh, forced on us has just opened people's eyes to a lot more options. Uh, I think, uh, and the, the stability of, of things, you know, has not been as important to them because there's so much support out there because of covid mechanisms and, and responses by government and things like that and, and, and it's, you know, low cost of living, considering everything. I, I think as cost of living increases, people are gonna want more stability. And so therefore, uh, they're gonna want to stay with secure employment. They're going to, you know, look to, to businesses and, and that allows businesses to be a bit more, uh, picky, I guess with, with their people and, you know, things sway back in their favor a bit more. Um, I, I think so. You know, was it real? Uh, I think as a, as a movement, not really. Um, like it's just, it's, it's an overblown description of the normal state of play now.Steve Sandor:
Yeah and, and it'd be interesting, In PNG, we experienced it when the Exxon project turned up as the gas project in 70 2015, I think it kicked off and it was like four or five years. And it was just mass exodus of everybody to anyone who was on the Exxon project. And they were offering, you know, something like maybe 50 to a hundred percent more to do the same job. So the people who took those, you, you'd be cra crazy not to. Right? And, and, and they, but, and they trained them, you know, they put'em into systems and processes that they wouldn't be able to get in the, uh, in the businesses that they were working for um, because they were very compliance driven and, you know, had to be, you know, the, the, the gas caravan came through and then, and then those people then, uh, you know, when the, when they left, they actually came back into the workforce. But they were better qualified, they were better trained, they were more disciplined. They actually added value. And they asked for more money right now. Um, they probably weren't going to get as much money as they were in the oil and gas industry, but they were still getting more because they were higher qualified. The interesting thing, and, and maybe one more question, right? The interesting thing is people then feel as though that they have to employ somebody because the job needs to, they need to employ somebody, right? And the, and the people that they're interviewing aren't necessarily the right people to be able to, they don't have the necessary skills, qualifications, et cetera. Well, they might have the right behavior, right? They might have the right attitude towards it. Do they employ them or do they employ somebody who's. The right skills and, you know, prepared to come in and do the job, but maybe the employers go, I'm not sure they're gonna fit in here culturally. Yep. Um, and they're, and you're gonna have to pay them more, but you're gonna have to invest more in the, in the first, in the first person. And the dilemma that I see a lot of businesses face, you know, and do I, do I hire that person or do I, or maybe not hire anybody. Right. Um, and maybe that's my best option.Clifford Morgan:
Yep. Uh, I, I, I think you, you need to consider all options and, and don't, don't just think, uh, you know, inside the box. Right. You have to, you have to fill the role, right? Yeah. So, yeah. So, um, And, and I, I talk to a lot of business owners at our lives. It's like, okay, we have to fill the role. We have to have someone doing this. And I think, well, okay, so what's, um, what are all the options that you've got? Rather, don't just get locked, so locked onto one. Perspective that you are locking out all the other opportunities that you've got for your business. So just as there's a whole lot more options and opportunities for staff these days to, in terms of how they wanna work, there's actually so many more opportunities for business as well, and particularly small businesses, right? So if, if you just think about that, okay, yes. We've gotta, we can staff the role, uh, in terms of, you know, finding whoever, and we may have to in invest a whole lot more in them in order to grow them. That's fine. Uh, you've got, uh, another one, which is pay a whole lot more money, uh, to find someone who is qualified and, you know, that may be, well that's an option, you know, for some big people. Uh, if you've got a big war chest, that might be, uh, a viable option for a lot of small businesses. It's not, uh, you can actually just leave the role vacant. If you've been operating without it for a while, um, you know, for a short period of time, can you do that? You know, uh, I spoke about Jane Chan before, who's now the HR manager of National Storage. Uh, sh that was the option that she took for her business. There was a particular role she's got, I'm just gonna not hire for the next six months. You can look at other staff members that you've got in terms of giving them, they might have. Less, um, critical role within the business, or they may have capacity to do some of that role. And you can have a conversation about repurposing. I was speaking with a business member, a business owner, uh, that I worked with, um, just it was last week. And that was, that was something that he was doing right? He had, you know, it was about to fill a role. Uh, the person got poached and, and took another opportunity. And so he's gone back to one of his other staff, bus, other staff and sort of said, well, hey, I'd love you to step up into this role. What would that look like? And was having that conversation. Um, I think also two others would be, um, you know, offshore employment. If, if that role is, you know, a bit lower or the type of role that you can do, there is some great workforce that you can get for very cheap money, uh, over in the Philippines. Right. And a, a lot of people will look at that and go, oh, that's unreliable. I, my experience is if you can find the right person, and you might have to go through two or three people to find that right person, um, they are absolutely invaluable. And, you know, you pay them pitance, but to them it's like this massive big wage. I was talking to my cousin who's a, a builder and, uh, his, uh, staff in the Philippines. He, he went over and visited them. Based on, on the wage that he was, he was paying them, I don't know, I I think it was 25,000 a year, uh, Australian, which is, is not much in terms of a yearly wage, but over there they had, I think a five bedroom house with a pool and a jet ski and a tennis court. Right. And they were, they were living the, he, he is like, you know, he, he was, uh, they're living better than me.Steve Sandor:
20, 25,000 australian dollars in the Philippines is massive.Clifford Morgan:
That's right. So, um, and the other option is innovation, right? What could you do differently to make that role redundant? And that might be new technology, it might be new systems, it might be, you know, changing the way that you do, but there are so many other opportunities rather than just being fixed on. I've gotta feel that role. Uh, and so that's what I was ha have a look and explore all of them. Don't just be fixed to, to one course of action.Steve Sandor:
Yeah. Fantastic. And, and I think that's, you know, as we, as we move into 20, 23 and beyond, I think that innovation, flexibility, you know, um, we can't continue to do things the same way that we've been doing them for forever, because it, they're just not working. We're in a different world. Um, so they're, yeah great, great thoughts. That Clipper. Fantastic. Um, uh, we will have to close this now. I seriously, I reckon that I, whilst you were talking, there's a, there's five other subjects that we could, we, we could spend time on. So, we'll, we'll definitely come back and, and revisit this. Thanks Clifford. So if someone wanted to get in contact with you, how would they do that?Clifford Morgan:
Thanks Steve. What I would really love to do is make available to any of your listeners who are, uh, interested is a beginner's guide to coaching conversations. So if you are listening to this and you've really enjoyed what Steve and I have been talking today, and you want to know a little bit more about what coaching is and, and how, how to start doing it and, and kind of experimenting in that space so you're investing in. To your people and developing capability a little bit more intentionally. This is a great place to start. If you go to clifford morgan.com.au, you'll get the opportunity to download this Beginner's Guide to Coaching Conversations and just pop your email in there you'll be able to download it, get sent to you straight away, and you'll be able to take and start you read through and, and start, you know, just start asking those coaching questions and having some coaching conversations that will help you. You're also able to give that to any of your staff and managers who, who might have teams as well, and they can then do exactly the same. And while you're there, you might want to check out also, uh, my book, the Coaching Leader, uh, which is Essential Skills to Enhance Your Leadership and Develop Your People every Day. It really goes into the conversation that Steve and I have been having, uh, in a whole lot more depth, and it's really designed not to make you another executive coach, but to give you skills and techniques and tools to enhance the way that you lead and develop capability whilst you do that every. So I hope that is helpful for people.Steve Sandor:
Oh, that's great, Clifford. Thanks very much. Uh, we'll make sure that all of that is in the show notes. Um, I've just one got one more question, um, and I ask it of all of my guests. And what is it that you are curious about?Clifford Morgan:
What am I curious about? Um, so for me personally, uh, my area of curiosity at the moment is delving into. Uh, uh, a little bit, uh, it's a different version of this, but neuroscience and micro behavior and how that can influence people. There's a great guy out there, Alan Parker, who's an, uh, Australian. He's a one of the world's best negotiators, but he's also in a phenomenal communicator, he call himself a, um, micro behavioral scientist and neuroscientists and studies the neuroscience. But then what are the specific behaviors that you use in order to influence other people's neuro, uh, chemistry inside their brains and influence them in that way? And so he, uh, he's absolutely fascinating and for myself as a, a coach and a facilitator and a speaker, I'm really interested to learn more on that topic next year so I can, you know, enhance the, the things that I do.Steve Sandor:
Hmm. Fantastic. Um, sadly mate, we are at the end. Um, but thank you really, I really do appreciate the insights that you've been able to provide and there's a lot of value in, in that conversation. So thanks very much Clifford Morgan from Luman. Um, really appreciate it. Um, thanks for being my guest on the Inspiring business Podcast.Clifford Morgan:
Thanks, steve. Really appreciate it.Steve Sandor:
I hope you enjoyed the interview with Clifford. As you can tell, we are very much on the same page when it comes to our approach around building a culture within an organization. So if you resonated with what Clifford spoke about, please give him a call. I hope you also see the need to think about your plans for 2023 and how you might create an employer of choice by being the lazy entrepreneur. As I said in the beginning of the show, don't try to work this out for yourself. Get advice from your preferred advisor, and if you think Clifford, or I can help with a second or third opinion, please give us. The links to an exploration call with me are in the show notes. My name's Steve Sandor and there are plenty of additional resources on our website and I'm always happy to connect with you on LinkedIn. Thank you for listening to the Inspiring Business Podcast, and my wish, as always is to inspire and energize you to take action so you too can make a difference in your and others' lives.