Mickey Mentzer of Major League Baseball's Cincinnati Reds shares how the Reds use data analysis, AI, and a host of IoT sensors and equipment to analyze player performance to provide intelligence to players, coaches, and trainers on and off the field.
Mickey Mentzer of Major League Baseball's Cincinnati Reds shares how the Reds use data analysis, AI, and a host of IoT sensors and equipment to analyze player performance to provide intelligence to players, coaches, and trainers on and off the field.
You don't put a team together with a computer, Billy. Baseball isn't just numbers. It's not science. If it was then anybody could do what we're doing, but they can't because they don't know what we know. They don't have our experience and they don't have our intuition.
Music:[Music] Take me out to the ball game, take me out with the crowd. Buy me some peanuts and Cracker Jacks...
Mickey Mentzer:The majority of baseball teams — the overwhelming majority — have an analytics department. There are teams in Major League Baseball that don't, and they don't perform the best. Most teams have a mix, right? They'll have the analytics and then they'll have like, the baseball gut guys.
Mike Nitardy:I want to welcome back all of our listeners to the Informatics Café. This is Mike Nitardy. And I'm pleased and proud to be joined here in the Informatics Café With Mickey Mentzer. He is the director of baseball systems for the Cincinnati Reds. This is the Informatics Café.
Mickey Mentzer:Okay. I like it! It's exciting to be here.
Mike Nitardy:Mickey, it's so great to have you. Thank you for joining us.
Mickey Mentzer:Yeah, thanks for having me.
Mike Nitardy:So you're the director of baseball systems?
Mickey Mentzer:Mmm hmm.
Mike Nitardy:That's quite a broad title.
Mickey Mentzer:Right. Right.
Mike Nitardy:What exactly do you do in that role?
Mickey Mentzer:Sure. Yeah. So I have a team, and we support every software or data element in the entire organization that includes, you know, all our minor league affiliates and everything. So...
Mike Nitardy:So obviously, the entire world, not just in baseball, the entire world is adjusting to the vast amounts of data information out there available to them to make decisions.
Mickey Mentzer:Yes, we're ingesting the gigabytes of data every night. We're you know, setting it up running the analytics processes to get the reports done, get the information in front of players, coaches, front office.
Mike Nitardy:Part of what you do, is making sure that all the data that you've got coming in, as it relates to your organization, is being assembled, used, analyzed, is that fair to say?
Mickey Mentzer:Yeah, we're working with the sports science group, setting up the tools to evaluate player performance, coming up with insights on what we see, you know, in the in that data now how we can you know, help them create better players working with health and performance on, you know, trends, injuries, things like that. Front office player evaluation, you know, who are you going to draft? Who are we going to make trades? You know, do they make sense, really, every part of the organization we are involved in, it's pretty fun. You talk about the gathering of information in the analytics, you know, in every industry. I think we've gotten really, really good at gathering the information. And now like getting the insights from it as where...
Mike Nitardy:Right
Mickey Mentzer:...we're struggling. And that's the secret sauce. And I would say the same is in baseball, right? Like, all the teams, all the organizations get the same data. We mean, there's even data share platforms, Major League Baseball is organized, like, you know, these are the stats from yesterday's games across the league. So we're all getting the same base data. And then the secret sauce is how are we getting the insights from that data? How are we leveraging that data to make better decisions?
Mike Nitardy:I'm a lawyer by trade. And so when you start talking about all that stuff, the secret sauce, this is the way my mind starts thinking. Okay, so you've got all this data that you're all, you know, this base level, I guess, Major League Baseball somehow is providing and every night or whatever it is, you're taking it in, and the secret sauce is how you apply it.
Mickey Mentzer:Mmm hmm.
Mike Nitardy:What happens when you trade a player? You know, to me, I'm sitting here thinking is, is that if you're going to be investing in giving some of the secret sauce, and maybe you don't.
Mickey Mentzer:So we share as much information as necessary. And a lot of what like players and coaches are consuming are the outputs, right? Not necessarily the formulas that come up with that.
Mike Nitardy:You keep it as an analytic on your baseball systems, that we're not letting them know what exactly we're saying, We just giving them advice.
Mickey Mentzer:Mmm hmm. You know, perfect example is if you watch a baseball game, and you see a player pull a card out of his pocket, and it tells them where to stand or the shift or whatever...
Mike Nitardy:Yes.
Mickey Mentzer:..how we're going to approach this specific batter or this specific pitcher. This is what we're telling them, they don't know how we got there, right?
Mike Nitardy:Right.
Mickey Mentzer:They don't they don't know all of the information that went into that players, they talk, right. And I would say he may take things that he's done here, like, Oh, these are drills or these are ways that I've you know, add more snap to my, you know, breaking ball, whatever, and talk to other pitchers, which is fine, we're not going to stop that. Like that's not necessarily a trade secret. What you won't have is, you know, the things we built to tell them this is why you need to do that.
Mike Nitardy:Right. Very good.
Mickey Mentzer:We do lose some front office people, we lose coaches, you know, things like that, where some of that secret sauce is there. That's the nature of the beast, I think that exists in any industry. There's no real non-compete in baseball.
Mike Nitardy:Interesting.
Mickey Mentzer:I will say when, you know, like if someone decides to take a position with another organization, there's, it's very cordial, right? There's a permission that's asked of each team.
Mike Nitardy:Interesting.
Mickey Mentzer:And like the second that that decision is made, like your access is off, right? Like it's it's pretty strict there. But it happens. But I can tell you there are things that we do on the analytic side or, you know, on the IT side that no one has really seen behind the curtain. There's just a few people with that knowledge
Mike Nitardy:Yes exactly. So several years ago, there came a movie with Brad Pitt called Moneyball, you're smiling right now, just as I say it...
Mickey Mentzer:Mmm hmm.
Mike Nitardy:...because it really demonstrated on the big screen the divide in the sport over SABRmetrics being analytical over the gobs of data that sport brings in. And kind of the old way of doing things — sitting in the stands, getting a feel for the way the game goes. Where would you say that divide is now?
Mickey Mentzer:Not as great as they portrayed it in the movie. What's interesting is our GM was part of the Oakland A's organization during that movie. And so I don't think, you know, his role was portrayed in the movie, but he was part of that. And so he understands that and I think most teams have a mix, right? They'll have the analytics, and then they'll have like, the baseball gut guys, and from that movie, right, if, if people listening have seen it, one of the coolest parts, I think, is when you know, Billy Beane, Brad Pitt in the movies is having a conversation with his head scout. And he's like, I see you in those rooms. And you promise and you say, I know, I know. And he's like, you don't know, no one knows.
Brad Pitt as Billy Beane in Moneyball:You don't have a crystal ball. You can't look at a kid and predict his future any more than I can.
Mickey Mentzer:And it's true, because you don't like, if this was a science, we'd solve it. But there's a human element. And there's players and there's all that go into it. So I think the balance is key. And then there's teams like the Tampa Bay Rays that are all in on analytics, and they evaluate everything. And if you know what comes out 51% to 49%, they'll make the decision, you know, even if it means trading a star player for prospects, they do those things. They do them well, they have a huge department. It's really cool to see. So I think for the most part, the embracing of analytics — sabermetrics — It's pretty it's saturated itself pretty well into the game. Everyone's using the data pretty much. Right?
Mike Nitardy:Right. But it seems to me that what it all breaks down to is trying to make the best decisions with the data that we have, and getting our pieces in place to perform to the best that they can. But at some point, you're kind of like, relinquishing control...
Mickey Mentzer:Mmm hmm.
Mike Nitardy:...right. And it's like, okay, we put the pieces out there. Now they have to do their thing.
Mickey Mentzer:Yep. If you, you know, study the scouting reports, or the advanced scouting, you say 'this is how we're going to approach this.' And then if you watch a game, and that doesn't happen, there is frustration there. But I mean, these players have gotten to where they are because of their ability. And sometimes it's their gut, sometimes it's their read, you'll see guys, you know, blow through the stop sign at third and end up scoring and right. And like, even though everything said not to go, it worked out.
Mike Nitardy:That's probably one of the most frustrating parts of it.
Mickey Mentzer:It is and if you... when you win it's not frustrating. Right right right. When you lose it's extremely frustrating.
Mike Nitardy:Can you tell us some of the stuff that you're working on to give our listeners a flavor of what it is that you're doing? Sure, some of the apps that we're working on are like advanced scouting. So that's how are we going to face the Cardinals in this series? Who are the projected starters? How do we want to approach those? And then, you know, some of that changes based on game situations, you know, two strikes... All that information is there so that apps pretty cool. The scouting app is huge. We have you know, scouts in the field, looking at players doing evaluations,. grades, we need to normalize that and get that information up to people that make decisions about whether it's trades, or waivers or draft. But then some of the cooler stuff, a lot of what we're doing, you know, sports science and biomechanics is huge in sports, and so markerless joint tracking, how do we use that information to check for things like fatigue or efficiency? You know, force plates. So how is a pitcher coming off the mound? How's the batter transferring his weight? Those are some of the really cool things we're working on. Yeah, like our focus, especially for the Cincinnati Reds are how do we get every bit of baseball we can out of players before you know market influences change whether they're on a team or not? That's a great point. And so a lot of what you do, I'm sure it's not just for the big league team. It's also for the entire system. So when it says baseball system, I take it it's for the entire organization.
Mickey Mentzer:Oh, yeah, I can tell you about players we have playing daily in our Dominican summer league or...
Mike Nitardy:Wow.
Mickey Mentzer:Yeah. So I mean, a lot of that's our focus at the major league level, there's a ton that goes into the game, especially in like the advanced scouting, but those players are there and there are some tweaks you can make. I mean, Joey Votto is a perfect example, changes his swing whenever he feels like you know, there's something lacking and he's a student of the game and it's awesome to watch. But there's so much that we can do for the minor leaguers to get them up to the next level because ultimately, that's our goal is to get these kids in the big leagues. A lot of my time is on player development, which is you know, most of the minor league guys.
Mike Nitardy:So what is your background in?
Mickey Mentzer:Oh, IT — innovation. Looking at the way companies do things and thinking outside the box and doing more. I've done a ton in the natural language understanding natural language processing generation space, I've done data science, data modeling, AI, machine learning. Yeah, I've always just kind of broken the mold and tried to do things differently.
Mike Nitardy:So what got you into this?
Mickey Mentzer:Um, I was actually potentially pitching the Reds on some ideas and the position was open. And so it just worked. And it was an interesting career move. Yeah, just put it out there, pro sports doesn't always pay the best. You know, if you're a top notch developer, and you're deciding between working for the Dodgers or working for Facebook, you're probably going to get paid more Facebook, but your subject matter, you know, and some of the perks are so much better in baseball. And so when I had the opportunity, I'm like,'This is insane.' I've never been a suit and tie guy and a tee shirt and tennis shoes guy and a huge sports fan. So when I had the opportunity to do that, I jumped at it. And I thought, if I can take a different approach to something, let's introduce something different here. And let's try it. And we have and we're kind of changing the way we're doing a lot of things and, and one thing I've always done really well is I sit with the people doing whatever they're doing, whether it's the scouts or the GM, or the coaches, you know, people are not good at asking for what they need. They asked what they think they need. The old adage, you know, if Henry Ford were to listen to people, he would have made a faster horse instead of a car, right? So when I see people do things, and I see like, oh, we can be more efficient here, what if we could get this for you? That's kind of how I've done my career. And so now I'm just doing it in a sports setting, which is pretty awesome.
Mike Nitardy:That's awesome. So Mickey had had the pleasure of seeing you speak here at or DX22. And you were talking about some certain specific things that you're doing for players, whether it be batters, or pitchers, taking, I guess, video or pictures of them, and then breaking down the mechanics and helping them. Would you be able to describe you know exactly how you will do that? Both the hardware components, software and how you help players with that stuff?
Mickey Mentzer:Sure. So the I think the visual you're talking about was markerless, joint tracking. And so in our ballparks, we have — and a lot of Major League Baseball teams have this — we have eight cameras on the pitcher's mound, for example. And then there's a third party provider that takes those videos and then maps the joints. And so from there, we get almost like a stick figure of the pitcher. And then we run that through some of our processing. And we end up with a skeletal analysis. And we can see every pitch, frame by frame in a 3D model, you know, what's happening, how's the wrist breaking, is the elbow in the right spot, front leg, landing, the push off, you know, all the mechanics that go into pitching, and then we can take that over time. And we can compare it to this is what a curveball looks like. This is what a sinker looks like. This is what a curveball looks like in the first inning versus a curveball in the sixth inning when you've thrown 95 pitches.
Mike Nitardy:Wow.
Mickey Mentzer:And so you can see things like fatigue and efficiencies that potentially we could look at and fix. If you saw the same kind of data gathering in spring training, we still use things like that. But then we also have guys in vests and we have bats that have sensors on them. We have things watching the ball and you know you're getting the spin and we have a TV that shows Great American Ballpark. And so every hit it shows what would have happened if you were in the ballpark. Just really cool things like that. I don't know that every Wow. team uses that I'm sure. So teams have you know different array of tools. And they may have some we don't and we have some they don't. But a lot of that data is proprietary. And we pull that in, and then the insights we take from it, like the skeletal analysis — the KinaTrax — we're doing some really, really cool things that who knows if it pans out or gives us information, but we have some of those innovative ideas that were like what if this could tell us this. And so we're running with some of those now.
Mike Nitardy:Nice.
Mickey Mentzer:Which is... Hopefully it works.
Mike Nitardy:Very good. Very good. And so then I guess the next thing becomes conveying that to the player.
Mickey Mentzer:Yeah. What's really cool and frustrating about baseball is if a pitcher pitches tonight, he needs his reports tonight, or tomorrow morning, because if he has another outing, he's already lost the ability to learn from that one before. And we've done a really good job of tailoring these reports to, you know, digestible pieces that pitchers can see. And they can see their fatigue over time or what they were intending to do as what the outcome was. But yeah, those have to be ready for the flight home or you know, whatever is happening that night or the next morning. Spring training is a little different, because it's raw and you're in there and the computers are there. And we can show you as soon as you do it. They actually look up on a delayed screen and see some of that information after a throw or a swing. But yeah, you know, a big part of the job is getting information into the best digestible ways for each person. And sometimes, you know, this guy may digest it a little bit different than this guy. And so we have to learn and know those things
Mike Nitardy:To give them what they need when they need it. Well fantastic. Obviously, we're sitting here in the Informatics Café at NKU College of Informatics.
Mickey Mentzer:Mmm hmm.
Mike Nitardy:And it's exciting is that — my voice sounds like I'm six foot five and just built, right, but I'm not. So I'm not an athletic person. But it sounds to me like there's an avenue to get into athletics for somebody that's interested in data, that's interested in these things. What would you say to people that maybe are getting into school that would want to get in the field that you're in?
Mickey Mentzer:Yeah, so the easy the easiest way in, but probably the, you know, the, it's the hardest road is take the internships, you know, work for peanuts, stock the break rooms, whatever you have to do to get involved with the team, because typically baseball hires from baseball, and it's tough if you don't have that on your resume to break in. But I mean, I guess I've proved that you don't need it. The other ways people have done is they've done a ton of things on their own. And people have their own websites, and they're doing analysis, and you know, just cool things. And if you have that, or you have, you know, like a Git repo that shows like, I'm taking data, and I'm getting the analytics, that's impressive to people. And so there's ways to do that. Software development's huge, right? There's no company where I can go and buy a baseball package, and it will solve everything that we're doing. And so a lot of what we have is custom built. And so you don't necessarily need to throw a curveball to be able to, you know, write a bunch of C Sharp code. So there's ways in there and I think they're getting better about looking outside of their, you know, their baseball network. Now, if you wanted to go the front office route, you want to be a coach, GM, whatever, you got to take your lumps, you know, do all the little things, but from an IT side, there are opportunities to jump in. And even you know, from a hardware
side:Baseball, parks have their own data centers, you know, there's a huge network of servers, hardware all through the stadiums.
Mike Nitardy:Wow.
Mickey Mentzer:Someone's got to support that. Right.
Mike Nitardy:That's amazing. Yeah. That is amazing. So it's amazing that you just said that from the front room or management side — because I'm sitting here listening to you and I'm thinking that someone with your information that you're doing could potentially be, maybe should potentially be, a general manager.
Mickey Mentzer:There's a path there. There are assistant GMs from the technology side, that happens fairly often. I don't know how it is in every baseball organization. Some front offices are more closed than others. I would say in Cincinnati, one of the things I was nervous about going into sports is dealing with egos, right, like you can imagine that there's going to be egos when you're the general manager of the Cincinnati Reds or, you know, the coach, the manager of the team. In Cincinnati, there's none. Everyone's approachable. Our GM is one of the nicest guys ever. You know, the coach — when I go down in the clubhouse — everyone is just incredibly nice. And so I don't know if you'd have that access at every team. I've heard some don't. You know, I won't throw anyone under the bus.
Mike Nitardy:No, I hear you.
Mickey Mentzer:I don't know if that's my career path. But you could I mean, people have done it.
Mike Nitardy:That's awesome. Well, Mickey I want to thank you so much for coming into the Informatics Café with us. Yeah. What a great conversation — eye opening — what's going on in the in the world of sports and particularly with Cincinnati Reds. Thank you so much.
Mickey Mentzer:Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Mike Nitardy:Informatics. Café is a production of Northern Kentucky University's College of Informatics. Hosted by Mike Nitardy. Produced by Chris Brewer. Music and engineering by Aaron Zlatkin. Recorded at the Informatics Audio Studio in Griffin Hall.