Students in the Electronic Media and Broadcasting program in the College of Informatics at NKU gain valuable field experience working on shows like Science Around Cincy, and independent production sharing the stories of the people who work in science in the Cincinnati area. Each episode features a different scientist, their work, and their passion.
Our Mike Nitardy gets the scoop from the show's host Chris Anderson and NKU's John Gibson.
Check out Science Around Cincy at https://sciencearoundcincy.com
Discover yourself in the Electronic Media and Broadcasting program at NKU.
Students in the Electronic Media and Broadcasting program in the College of Informatics at NKU gain valuable field experience working on shows like Science Around Cincy, and independent production sharing the stories of the people who work in science in the Cincinnati area. Each episode features a different scientist, their work, and their passion.
Our Mike Nitardy gets the scoop from the show's host Chris Anderson and NKU's John Gibson.
Check out Science Around Cincy at https://sciencearoundcincy.com
Discover yourself in the Electronic Media and Broadcasting program at NKU.
Welcome back to the Informatics Cafe. I'm your host Mike Nitardy, and I'm so pleased to be joined today by the two people behind Science Around Cincy. And that is Chris Anderson and John Gibson. Welcome, guys.
Chris Anderson and John Gibson:Thanks Mike.
John Gibson:Thanks for having us.
Mike Nitardy:Great to have you. I guess right out from the very beginning, we'll start with a ittle bit of background from oth of you just tell us a ittle bit about yourselves. And hen we'll jump into what cience Around Cincy's all bout. So let's start with you, hris.
Chris Anderson:So I started my career as a science teacher. I taught high school science for about five years. And when I left the classroom, I'd taken like another program manager job
Mike Nitardy:Sure. at another school. And I I wanted to get back into science
Chris Anderson:I had started running a blog. And that went like pretty much right away I d realized like that was what d ew me in was loving science, g tting kids excited about s ience. But I wanted to do it i a different way. So okay. I'm a really slow writer. And if you're a blog writer, you know, you got to churn out post, like three or four times a week.
Mike Nitardy:You've got to churn it out, yeah.
Chris Anderson:I was lucky to get one out every other week. And I had like missed the blog train by like, 10 years, so
Mike Nitardy:[laughter]
Chris Anderson:So after a while, I was like, Okay, this isn't making a huge impact. And then I got two good pieces of advice. I got one piece of advice from a local reporter who said, "you know, people are always looking for local stories." And I said, Okay. So I did a little bit of freelance writing for some news outlets. But then someone else gave me another good piece of advice. And they said that, "you know, Chris, you're good with people. And writing doesn't really show that
Mike Nitardy:Right.
Chris Anderson:So you should think about doing something more visual." And I said, Okay, well, let me think about this. Maybe I can do a local science show or something.
Mike Nitardy:Nice.
Chris Anderson:I don't know, we'll call it Science Around Cincy. So I kind of thought about that for a year or two and kind of fleshed out the ideas. And then I had met John, really just through an NKU faculty member who I had been working with on another project. And John and I, we became pretty quick friends
Mike Nitardy:Nice.
Chris Anderson:and he was a really good thought partner because of his experience in production and, you know, feature films and all that. So we just kind of put our heads together and bounced ideas and questions off of each other. And we kind of came up with this web-based format that features local scientists and engineers and researchers.
Mike Nitardy:Very cool.
Chris Anderson:And to teach kids about science and to get kids excited about like, not just learning science, but scientific careers.
Mike Nitardy:Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, John, tell us about yourself.
John Gibson:Yeah, so my background is I've been at NKU for 12 ish years, 10 ish years, I have no idea something like that.
Mike Nitardy:[laughter]
John Gibson:Right? Like, I'm very bad with time. So I've been here and I teach in the Electronic Media program.
Mike Nitardy:Nice.
John Gibson:And so I've mostly focused with working with students on production. A lot in class, but as well as outside of class. And kind of like Chris, I like working with people. I like hearing stories. I'm not always the like, interviewing people is not always like what I like to do, but I like to just sit down and like listen to people. Right? And so, you know, we jump ahead. And you know, Chris is exactly right. Michelle Day a professor in journalism here had Chris on as a guest speaker to talk about science, I think science education for her class.
Chris Anderson:Yeah, science communication.
John Gibson:Yeah. And it's funny because she was like, we just randomly bumped into each other in the hallway. She's like, you need to meet this guy. His name is Chris Anderson. He just came my class. And what's funny is it had nothing to do with production. It was actually because Chris had shared his love of Star Wars. And I have a ridiculous amount of Star Wars toys in my office.
Mike Nitardy:[laughter]
John Gibson:And so she was a gift to meet this guy. And so Chris came down to my office. And we sat and talked about Star Wars. I think what our favorite Star Wars movie was, and our favorite spaceship, right?
Chris Anderson:Yeah!
John Gibson:It's probably the B Wing. Anyway
Chris Anderson:Probably is.
John Gibson:for like
Mike Nitardy:Very good.
Chris Anderson:Yeah.
John Gibson:And then that wasn't even our conversation about the show. It was just, yeah, just a mutual interest. And a couple of weeks later, that's when Chris said, Hey, I got this show
Mike Nitardy:Oh by the way.
John Gibson:Oh, by the way, yeah. And
Mike Nitardy:There might be another connection.
Chris Anderson:Yeah, I forgotten it slipped my mind.
John Gibson:But this goes somewhere for me because like, you know, we have this conversation on campus at Starbucks. There you go product placement; maybe we get some funding for the show.
Mike Nitardy:I was gonna ask you about that.
John Gibson:Yeah, exactly. So we're sitting there having a coffee, the show seems great. But I'm thinking like, Man, this is a lot like, Okay,
Mike Nitardy:Right.
John Gibson:This is gonna be I can't commit to this just myself. It's an investment.
Mike Nitardy:Definitely. Definitely.
John Gibson:We gotta get students who who would be interested. And sure enough, like, as I'm leaving, I had this one student of mine, Jordan Bardgett, their dad works on campus in the science program. And I'm walking out the building and I happen to see Jordan as they're leaving their job at the Student Union. And I was like, Jordan, I just met with somebody who wants to have a science show, would you be interested in producing? And they were like, yes!
Mike Nitardy:Fantastic.
John Gibson:And I always tell people, it's amazing, these conversations that you can have just like, randomly
Mike Nitardy:Right.
John Gibson:that lead to one other thing.
Mike Nitardy:Right.
John Gibson:And I think back to Michelle being like, you got to meet this guy. And it was about Star Wars, but then it turned into this, you know, and I love it.
Mike Nitardy:Yes!
John Gibson:It's great.
Mike Nitardy:And then about how long ago was this?
Chris Anderson:I think our original conversation might be almost three years ago.
John Gibson:Yeah, because we'r on the, I mean, once fundi g kicks in, we would be on t e third season of Science Aroun Cincy com
Mike Nitardy:Wow. Okay, so that's actually you're jumping ahead to exactly what I was about ready to ask. So how long did it take them from that conversation to get to the first, you know, the production of the first episode?
Chris Anderson:Maybe about six months ish, six to eight months?
Mike Nitardy:Sure. Yeah.
Chris Anderson:We had kind of started to flesh out what the project structure would look like both the final product and like what the workflow would be like. And then we started identifying places that could give us some money. And it was Fuel Cincinnati that actually supported us for that first season. And the second season, as well. They they renewed our funding. So we did a lot with the little they gave us which was very generous
Mike Nitardy:Right.
Chris Anderson:very generous. They actually gave us more than what we originally asked for, which was awesome and allowed us to produce probably another episode or two. And yeah, I'd say about six months after that ish, we were able to start sharing content. We had had our stuff edited, and we're able to share.
John Gibson:So another source of funding, and this really kicked in for season two, was an I+ grant. And so Informatics+ was just incredible. So there's a grant that's offered for faculty and for projects, up to I think $8,000. And, you know, Chris did a lot of legwork to do the proposal, we submitted it, and I'm thinking now well, you know, we'll get a couple thousand. And we'll supplement that with some money that the Dean's office has donated, you know, given and we'll do this right, and that we get a message saying, you know,"Congratulations, you've been awarded the full grant." And I think we were in the initial round that when the first year that this was put out. And it was just like, I remember getting that email and just being like Oh, Chris Chris Chris Chris. You know, like, the GIFs that we were sending back and forth on our phones.[laughter] Like, you know, whenever we got that news. And that, you know, like I said it was awesome to be a recipient, but also that the college and I+ believed in the project enough to say, "we want to fund this."
Mike Nitardy:No doubt.
John Gibson:And like I said, being able to just say that's great, that money goes towards the students.
Mike Nitardy:That's investing. Yep.
John Gibson:And we've stretched that. Oh my gosh.
Chris Anderson:Yeah.
John Gibson:I think we're still stretching it right now for things. And so, yeah, we're so excited about it.
Mike Nitardy:Well, why don't we talk a little bit about where our listeners can find your your shows? And also then a little bit about the length and what it is you're trying to accomplish in each episode.
Chris Anderson:Yeah, so all our videos are on YouTube, and you can actually access not just the videos, but bonus features and classroom materials. So if there's any
Mike Nitardy:Very good. Nice!
Chris Anderson:who want to use our videos in their classroom, teachers out there they all come with instructional materials.
Mike Nitardy:Mmm hmm.
Chris Anderson:So there's always some sort of hands-on activity that comes with the main episodes.
Mike Nitardy:Fantastic.
Chris Anderson:Yeah, and that's at sciencearoundcincy.com.
Mike Nitardy:Very good.
John Gibson:And I'd like to talk a little bit about this too, is that, you know, the target audience for this initially was middle school students, correct?
Chris Anderson:It's about middle school.
Mike Nitardy:Okay.
John Gibson:But I find that like, as an adult watching it, sometimes I'm just like, well, not sometimes. Oftentimes. I'm like, Huh, that's kind of cool, right? Like, that's, that's really awesome. And there's also I mean, my kids are nine and six and a half. And there will still be things that I'll reference and I forgot what it was, but I was talking about trilobites or something one day
Mike Nitardy:[laughter]
John Gibson:And they were like,"Oh, yeah, I remember that from that show." And they refer to Chris because Chris has been over to our house a few times as the Science Guy. Mister, you know, Mr. Chris, the Science Guy,
Chris Anderson:Right. right? Like so, it's kind of one of the things where it's like, you know, even though it's middle school, I really think there's a wide range
Mike Nitardy:No doubt. No doubt.
John Gibson:In addition to YouTube there's also KET, CET
Chris Anderson:Yep.
John Gibson:We have episodes we have full like 30 minutes chunks
Mike Nitardy:Yeah, that's gonna be it's gonna be my, the length you use on
John Gibson:Oh man. We're connected, Mike What's going on? Right
Mike Nitardy:Yeah, it's, it's e actly right He's anticipating everywhere I'm going, it's awesome.
John Gibson:Yeah. Chris is actually feeding me
Mike Nitardy:[laughter]
John Gibson:Chris Brewer, other Chris is feeding me things right now.
Mike Nitardy:Very, very good. So no, that's fantastic. So for a show on YouTube. I want to go in there and find it. I'm gonna watch one. About how long is a
Chris Anderson:Yeah, it depends on In the video, so like what we call our main episodes, which is usually like the main feature, when we go to shoot something is usually between seven and nine minutes
Mike Nitardy:Nice.
Chris Anderson:Any longer than 10 or so once you get into double digits, I think kids just start
Mike Nitardy:Right, to tune out.
Chris Anderson:start to tune out which is understandable.
Mike Nitardy:Mmm hmm.
Chris Anderson:And then there's some other bonus features like, we'll have scientists tell their stories. Those are more in like the three to five minute range.
Mike Nitardy:Okay.
Chris Anderson:So
Mike Nitardy:Okay.
Chris Anderson:it's great for teachers, because they're not like 30 minute episodes that you have to show the whole thing class just to get something out of it. It's very chunkable. So if you wanted to just Hey, we're gonna start with this eight minute video and then go into this activity, that's perfect. Or if you just want to just end class with, Hey, this is a career, this is something I want to make sure my kids know about or can see, you know, that that this scientist is doing this work. That's a shorter video. So we try to make it very chunkable. And it actually works out for the broadcast episodes, because then we can kind of put a couple together Nice. almost in the same theme. And it'll work for 30 minutes. So we might have a geologist, a paleontologist, and then you know, maybe like a weather person or something all in one episode. And that can be like an Earth Science theme for that
Mike Nitardy:Nice.
Chris Anderson:for that broadcast.
Mike Nitardy:Very good.
John Gibson:So then we'll go and we'll go to like, recently went to Bellevue High School and filmed in the science lab there, just some stand ups of Chris saying, you know, "Today on science around Cincy." And he sets up the episodes. And so we just string them together. And it works out. Those are some kinks that we're still figuring out.
Chris Anderson:Yeah.
John Gibson:And that's part of I mean, there's the phrase that everybody uses. I know the president of NKU has used it before and Dean Kirby has, but basically like, you're kind of building the plane as you go sometimes.
Chris Anderson:And I like the one you're building the parachute as you're falling out.
John Gibson:Yes that works. Oooh, that might better
Chris Anderson:That might be a little more appropriate
John Gibson:Yeah, yeah,
Mike Nitardy:That is my life, definitely.
Chris Anderson:Yeah, depending n the deadline it might look mor
John Gibson:But honestly, that's the work of independent like production, whether it's an independent film, an independent production like this. And when you've got minimal funding, you know, which has been, it's been incredible what we've got, but it's like, you know, you've got to make every thing count. And sometimes it's just like, Alright, well, we just learned a lesson there. Okay, cool. Let's do this for the next one, you know, and
Mike Nitardy:Very good.
John Gibson:it's worked out really well.
Mike Nitardy:So let's talk a little bit about the kinds of topics that you've already explored, and maybe a little bit about where you're wanting to go next.
Chris Anderson:That's a good question. We've tried to work with some different institutions around the city and the region, who have a pretty good sciency presence. So we've done stuff with the zoo, and the Museum Center. But we've also tried to highlight some things that people might not have heard of before.
Mike Nitardy:Right.
Chris Anderson:And, you know, like I said, my background is in education, and I have a master's in curriculum and instruction. So I have a pretty good bead on what kids need to know and when. So what I try to do is look for a wide variety of science that intersects at those different standards. You know, not just a wide variety of the field where scientists are working, but the scientists themselves. It's really important for us to have a wide diversity of scientists so kids can see themselves in the scientists. That is really important for us. So we kind of look for a pretty good variety of folks. But we've done a lot of different [things]. We've gone looking for fossils, we were there at the zoo when they are using genetics and, you know, blood work to figure out how to best preserve endangered species. Like
Mike Nitardy:Wow!
Chris Anderson:we've done a lot of really cool [topics]. Like 80 Acres Farm was really cool.
John Gibson:Well, and this is what's cool about the show on the subject of the topics. Was 80 Acres Farm the one that's the produce?
Chris Anderson:Yeah, they have they grow all their produce indoors with robots.
Mike Nitardy:Goodness!
John Gibson:Yeah, oh it was awesome
Chris Anderson:It's cool.
John Gibson:So I'm editing that show. And we could talk about the production process in a moment if you want because there's a really strong NKU connection there as well. But like I will do, oftentimes what's called the first edit like so Chris will give the material to me, I kind of stitch it together. And then I pass it off to students who then do the rest of it and they're really, really good editors. They're better than I am. And so I find myself on an episode like 80 Acres Farm, which is talking about all this produce and like, this is kind of cool. And then I go to the grocery store and I see 80 Acres Farm and I'm like, I know how that was made.
Mike Nitardy:Wow.
John Gibson:That's awesome.
Mike Nitardy:Yes!
John Gibson:I can visualize the machines too and so I think ab ut me seeing that, and I'm also now thinking about a kid or may e somebody else who maybe caugh that episode is like,"I ha no idea that process that went into it."
Mike Nitardy:Right.
John Gibson:Another favorite episode of mine was our very first one, the frogs that freeze themselves. And that was at the NKU Field Station, right?
Chris Anderson:Yeah, that's where we did the field work. The researcher she's over at, uh
John Gibson:Is it Mount St. Joseph?
Chris Anderson:Mount St. Joe.
John Gibson:Yeah, they went out in the field what, at like, two o'clock in the morning or something like that?
Chris Anderson:No, it wasn't quite that. It was like 10.
John Gibson:Oh, that's right because it was the winter.[laughter] It felt like two in the morning. For the edit it was like 2 o'clock in the morning
Chris Anderson and John Gibson:For the edit. For the editing. and they hiked 27 miles.
Chris Anderson:Yeah, it was like May and so these frogs freeze themselves through the winter. That's their they don't hibernate, they just like let themselves freeze. And by the time the spring rolls around, they've thawed and so they've like woken up. And that's when they look for mates. And so they're sending out their mating calls that we would just hear as frogs but for the researchers who are trying to potentially have a specimen to study that's what they're looking for. So they tromp around at like yeah 10 or 11 at night when the weather when the, you know, nights start getting a little warmer. And they look for these guys who are and it's funny, like the traps are, are pretty low tech, which is sometimes what science is. Like sometimes you have like very sophisticated equipment and
Mike Nitardy:Right.
Chris Anderson:sometimes it's a PVC pipe strapped to a tree, because if the frogs get in, they can't get out.
Mike Nitardy:Interesting. Yeah.
Chris Anderson:So they go get the PVC, like they could like shake it out and there might be a frog inside.
Mike Nitardy:Right, there's a frog.
Chris Anderson:Yep. And then it makes their job a lot easier.
John Gibson:Well, and then that's cool for me too. One is
Mike Nitardy:Wow. seeing some of the low tech sometimes. I'll be like, Huh, Mmm hmm. that looks like a one gallon ice cream bucket that they're just
John Gibson:Right, you know? And I know for them, they love putting into the water to study, you know, the effects of chemicals on fish or you know, something like that. But then, also from a production standpoint, I keep thinking of that first episode. And I think that was Jordan and Michael Pika that filmed with you. And it wa so cool thinking about like, yo know, man, these guys, they go to go traipsing through a fiel filming a science show abou frogs that freeze themselves o you know, that that stay in th ground frozen. Like how cool i that as a student? Right? You'r like, that's what you get pai to do it. You know?
Chris Anderson:We took them to Mammoth Cave. You know, we've been we've been 3 or 400 feet underground filming.
John Gibson:Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Anderson:We did stuff with the Cincinnati Fire Department. That was really cool.
Mike Nitardy:Wow.
Chris Anderson:We were all in full fireman gear. And yeah, we went through their training center. And they have this house kind of setup. And so they light this fire and you're in this house, and it's like, the flames are going over your head. It was really really cool.
Mike Nitardy:Oh, my goodness.
Chris Anderson:Yeah. Yeah, I got to use the fire hose and stuff to put out like, they were awesome.
Mike Nitardy:So about how many do you have available right now?
Chris Anderson:Straight videos? Probably around 60 to 70.
Mike Nitardy:Fantastic. So that's a lot for our listeners to catch up on if they haven't already seen them.
John Gibson:Yeah, I mean, you all filmed for like probably three hours or so.
Chris Anderson:Yeah, three or four hours.
John Gibson:The amount of stuff that can come out of three hours. There's the main episode, but there's always some random aside where it's like, that's great for
Mike Nitardy:That is really cool!
John Gibson:a social media post.
Mike Nitardy:That is really cool! Why don't we talk about the production part and the role that students play in that. Why don't you just walk us through that?
John Gibson:Well, you know, like I said it's almost entirely student-produced now I say almost because Chris has become like this amazing producer and I'm not just saying that because he's like literally sitting here right now being like "yes, I am." No I'm joking. No, so Chris is the is the executive producer and for all intents is the field producer. Mike shows up. He's got his rundown. Here's what we're doing today. But as far as the crew goes, it is entirely students or, in some cases, depending on funding we've been able to hire NKU alumni as well. So we've got a couple of folks that were just like, you know what we need a freelancer. Especially when the pandemic first hit, because we were really limited by what we could do with students. And so we had a lot of NKU freelancers that we could be like, hey, you just recently graduated, we could use you on the shoot. And so it was really nice pipeline for NKU connections.
Mike Nitardy:Very cool.
John Gibson:And the practical experience, you can't beat it. Right. I mean, it's, it's been really good for them.
Mike Nitardy:Fantastic. So now, I guess the final question would be what's next, for science around sensing where you guys going?
Chris Anderson:Well, we'd still like to do another season of Science Around Cincy. And we're working on that right now. We've got several kind of episodes kind of all written, almost all ready to go. So we really, at this point, are just looking for ways to kind of get that off the ground. And really get another that really the next kind of generation of students to be a part of this. We've had some folks graduate, which is awesome.
Mike Nitardy:Right.
Chris Anderson:Which is what we all want to see out of the students. And then we have a couple other projects, some other spin offs that we're working on that we're really excited about that we'll be able to share in a couple months.
Mike Nitardy:I was gonna say we have to have you back to talk about those.
Chris Anderson:Yeah.
John Gibson:And right now, yeah. Also, the next part of it, too, is just fundraising.
Chris Anderson:Yeah.
John Gibson:And that is a that's always a challenge. It is that
Mike Nitardy:Definitely.
John Gibson:you can have 80,000 awesome ideas. But if you've got no checks in the checkbook, you know, you're just like, Alright, cool. So but you know, that's, we're really optimistic about it. There's some good possibilities.
Chris Anderson:And, we've never gone into it saying, like, we're not going to get the money.
John Gibson:Yes, exactly.
Chris Anderson:We'll find a way to make it work. And it has thus far and we're able to keep our costs low. We do a lot with a little. We can really stretch a dollar. So, yeah, it might happen in two months, it might happen in four, but we'll make it happen.
Mike Nitardy:So you were talking about starting up the first episode and how you got started. Why don't you tell us about some other chance encounters that might have led to success for students and professors here at NKU?
John Gibson:Well, you know, I'm trying to think of specific examples of those chance encounters. And I know Chris and I both recently, we were all sitting around a campsite at Mammoth Cave, and we were talking about the chance encounters we have with people and how that changes the trajectory of your life
Mike Nitardy:Right.
John Gibson:or whatever you're doing.
Mike Nitardy:Right.
John Gibson:And I won't go into a long ramble about that. But to focus on more of the student side of it, as well as professors. In general, I think it's important for students to know that you have no idea, like, literally no idea how a random encounter is going to change the trajectory of your life.
Mike Nitardy:Right.
John Gibson:You might think that this is what you're going to do, this is what I want to do. I want to be a director, or I want to be a high school history teacher, in my own background. And you have a conversation with a professor who's like, I want you to meet this person, or here's this really cool opportunity, and things are going to quickly change for you.
Mike Nitardy:Nice.
John Gibson:And that's why I go back to those series of conversations, where one thing leads to another. I'm hesitant to be like, it's fate, you know, not that, but like, I think you kind of almost always need to be prepared. That if something seems cool, jump for it. Right? Don't worry about like, okay, is this going to, is this going to lead to my ultimate job one day?
Mike Nitardy:Right.
John Gibson:No, if it seems like something you want to do, and the person is a person like Chris, or Michelle, or you know, anybody else on campus who's a good person, right, like, you know. Then go for it. You have nothing to lose.
Chris Anderson:Yeah, and I'll just, I'll just add a little piece of advice for students who are listening is that just get a cup of coffee with somebody. The cost of entry to get coffee with someone and spend 20 or 30 minutes is very, very low. And you're gonna take a lot of coffee meetings that are going to be okay, though you'll have a few that kind of are like, well, this is not... You're gonna have a lot that are okay, and
Mike Nitardy:[laughter] you might learn something. But every once in a while, you're gonna get a really good one. And it's gonna make something special happen. So just be open to that opportunity. Yeah, and if someone ever asks you like,"Hey, do you want to, you know, sit down for a little bit?" just say, "Yeah." You never know what's gonna happen.
John Gibson:One of our best coffee meetings was sit down with Kendall Fisher
Mike Nitardy:Of course.
John Gibson:pre-COVID, and we were just sitting out and
Chris Anderson:Right.
John Gibson:having a conversation about like, Okay, where can we go for funding? Let's talk about the show.
Chris Anderson:Yeah.
John Gibson:And that was her, I think her first introduction to
Mike Nitardy:Mmm hmm.
John Gibson:I used to always think that networking meant you it. And she was like, "This is really cool."
Mike Nitardy:Yeah. have to go to a place and you have to dress up. And you got to
John Gibson:Yeah. And also, I know I keep talking about this. have like a name tag. You shake hands and you give cards like But like, on those coffee notes, that's networking, right? all that. No, that's not. So students, if you hear somebody talking about and other professionals as well, if you hear somebody talk about networking. Networking is exactly what Chris just said, reach out to somebody be like, Can I buy you a cup of coffee and just pick your brain?
Mike Nitardy:Right.
John Gibson:You never know where that conversation will lead. And at least it's a good cup of coffee.
Mike Nitardy:Great advice. Great advice. Well, thank you both so much for joining us today. It's been a wealth of information for our listeners here at Informatics Cafe. I want to thank both Chris and John for joining us. And to the rest of our listeners, feel free to join us next time that we have a show. Thank you. Informatics Cafe is a production of Informatics+, the outreach arm of Northern Kentucky University's College of Informatics. Hosted by Mike Nitardy. Produced by Chris Brewer. Music and engineering by Aaron Zlatkin. Recorded at the Informatics Audio Studio in Griffin Hall.