Construction Pals
Construction Pals
Human-Friendly Construction for a Healthy Home
We've all heard of building green: environmentally-friendly construction with a focus on energy efficiency. But what about human-friendly construction?
Andy Pace, owner of the Green Design Center and leading expert in the field of non-toxic environments, discusses the importance of building healthy homes from the foundation up.
You can learn more about the Green Design Center at https://www.thegreendesigncenter.com/, and you can email Andy at andy@thegreendesigncenter.com.
The Construction Pals podcast is brought to you by BlueTape, your source for the latest in the construction world. Don't forget to subscribe for more episodes like this.
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Welcome to the Construction Pals podcast. Brought to you by BlueTape, your source for the latest in the construction world. Hard hats off, headphones on, and let's get started.
Rick Butler:And I'm your host, Rick Butler, from BlueTape. Our guest today is Andy Pace, owner of the Green Design Center. In this episode, we talk about the importance of building healthy homes, the increasing importance of human-friendly construction, and the upward trend of green-conscious homeowners. Good afternoon, Andy. It's Rick. I appreciate you being here. Andy Pace, by the way, everybody. Welcome to the podcast, man.
Andy Pace:Well, thank you so much. It is absolutely my pleasure to be here with you today.
Rick Butler:Absolutely. And let's just make this conversational, brother. And let's start with the basics. Because I don't know where you are. Don't know about your dog. Don't know about your family. Just give us some background, man, about who you are, not what you do, but who you are, brother.
Andy Pace:Excellent. Well, I grew up in Wisconsin, I've been here my whole life, 52 years here in Wisconsin now. And, you know, growing up, it's, we weren't talking about, you know, school sports and what did I learn in school during the day, at the dinner table, you know, my folks have been involved in a commercial construction materials supply company that dates back to 1937 here in Wisconsin, and so, you know, growing up, I was learning about architects and contractors and construction, and I, you know, honestly, I became fascinated with the industry at a very young age. And that's really what got me going on this path of being in this crazy industry. Went to, went to college, got outta college started working for the family business. This is 1992. Actually '89, excuse me,'89, I started working for the family business. And in 1992, I was a supplier at the time, I was a rep for a line of high-performance coatings for parking garages, for print shops, airplane hangars, real high-end epoxies and urethanes, and had a problem on a job site. Well, we were supplying a water-based epoxy flooring material, and the primer coat got applied. And people living in the condos above started complaining about the odors. Now, again, you know, our family has been in this industry since the '30s. I wasn't going to risk poisoning my customers for selling these products. And so we started thinking, well, maybe there's a way that we can do this in a healthier way, a different way. Well, what really got us was two of our workers got rushed to the hospital because of inhalation complications, they couldn't breathe, because of the stuff curing in this enclosed space. And that's what set me on the path to what I would call common sense, healthy building materials. And I started that way back in the '90s. And so I'm still doing it today.
Rick Butler:Wow. So isn't the thing, I'm always bad about butchering quotes, but isn't it"Necessity is the mother of invention."
Andy Pace:You got that right! You got that right. And that's the thing. You know, back in the'90s, the early '90s, first of all, the term green was still just a lowly color. You know, it wasn't a way of life the way it is now. But we all thought water based was safe. And somebody said they're using a latex paint or a water based paint, okay, well, that's fine. And that's going to be safer. Well, I learned the hard way. And my employees, they got the brunt of it. They learned that in order to be called the water based coating, only 50% of the liquid needs to be water. The rest can be acetone or ammonia or xylene or toluene or you name it. And so yeah, I mean, it was because of failure like this on a project that required us to change our methods and materials.
Rick Butler:Yeah, I think, you know, before we went on the air you talked about you learn more from your customers than maybe you teach them because you feel their pain points, and failure in this industry is really it's failing up, actually, not failing down. It's just always a perspective I want to look at at the end of the day, it sounds like you made that into an industry for yourself. You've, you've failed your way up.
Andy Pace:Honestly, it's not something that I ever set out to do in my career, I just wanted to work for the family business. And I love architecture, I love... I used to write specifications, I used to draw details for commercial projects. This is what I really love to do. But then once I found out the hard way, how dangerous our industry can be, especially to people with certain types of health issues, I decided there was just a better way to do it.
Rick Butler:So let's talk about the founding of your business and the name of it, where people can find you right now, just by searching the web and, and sort of how did that come to be?
Andy Pace:Yep, so the name of the company is the Green Design Center. Now, and you can find us at thegreendesigncenter.com. We're actually sort of morphing into a new name called GDC, Building for Health. I'll explain that in a bit. So way back in the '90s, when I started this, we actually opened up a small little mail order company. Now remember, back before the internet, we couldn't sell online, right? And so we were selling out of a mail order catalog, and we called ourselves Safe Building Solutions. Simple name, said exactly what we're doing, we're selling safer building solutions, because at the time, green still wasn't anything more than a color. In the mid '90s, I co-authored a green building checklist for the state of Wisconsin. And that ended up morphing into, along with a few other states and their checklists, morphed into the LEED Program, the US GBC LEED Program. So we decided that we wanted to sort of play upon that green term becoming popular. So we changed our name from Safe Building Solutions to Green Design Center. Now, I still love the name, but I but I dislike the name for one of the reasons, and one of those reasons is that green does not necessarily mean human-friendly. And we really concentrate on human-friendly building materials, human-friendly design. Green mainly talks about the energy efficiency and sustainability of materials, doesn't really focus on human health. And that's why we're incorporating the new moniker of Building for Health into the end of the company. Building for Health is actually another company that started in the '80s in Colorado, and we bought them several years ago to take over the things that they were selling in their customer base and whatnot. So we're just, you know, incorporating some of that history into the new name.
Rick Butler:Let's, let's just do a little roleplay. I'm a builder. So starting there, is that your customer? I'm Rick the Builder, is that is that your typical guy or gal that come in, that comes in to you first, before I actually set up a scenario for you? Is that who you're mainly talking to, or...
Andy Pace:Quite honestly, Rick, I'd say no. And the reason is, the reason is, is that, and this took me a long time to understand and appreciate. Builders are very, very set on their ways, because they know what they're doing. For the most part. Let's say the average high quality custom home builder, that builder knows exactly what it's going to take to get this home done, and utilizing the materials and methods they're used to. They know their, roughly, their profit margins. Anything new gets thrown into that mix, and it can become a difficult or more difficult process. So for years in this industry, I got mad because I never got builders coming to me saying, "I want to, I want to build a healthy home." I always had homeowners. But then I decided this is the way to go. Because if the homeowner, the person writing the check, ultimately wants a healthy home, then what's going to happen? That homeowner will go to the builder and say, "I would love to work with you, but I really need to make this a healthy home. Can you work with Andy Pace as a consultant? And can we all work together?" And the beauty of this is is that the builder's learning, the customers getting what they want, I'm learning because, again, because of my background in commercial construction, residential is different. And I've been in the residential market now solid 20 years, but I'm still learning the ways of the, of residential, it's, it's a lot different than commercial. And so, I would say that role is starting to shift a little bit, I'm having more builders now coming to me saying, "I've got a client, and... that's heard of you, has worked with you, or they just want to build a healthy home. And after some research, I understand you're the person to talk to." And that's extremely encouraging. In all these years, I've never had that happen until the last couple of years.
Rick Butler:So just in the industry, and in your day to day, do you see this then, just regurgitating what you just said, you see this as homeowner-led? Word-of-mouth coming back to you?
Andy Pace:I do. I think that the construction industry has done a really good job of adopting the energy efficiency portion of green. You know, Energy Star, LEED for Homes, you know, other, other building checklists that are out there. Nobody wants to live in or build an energy inefficient home. Right? I mean, even as a, as a homeowner, if you have to replace your HVAC system, you're not going to go into a big box store and say "Give me the least efficient furnace you got." We all understand energy efficiency means money saved, better for the bottom line. We also understand that there are certain things we can do in our homes that are better for the environment. And if it doesn't cost any more, and it doesn't affect us personally, then why not? Why wouldn't we? It just kind of makes sense?
Rick Butler:Right, right.
Andy Pace:What doesn't, what doesn't ever enter that equation, or is starting to now, is the human health aspect. And that's because there is no metric that measures human health inside of a building. So there's a, there's a metric for energy efficiency. And what is that metric? Well, how much does your energy bill cost every month? That's one of those metrics. With human health, it comes down to the individual, and everybody's different. This is why there is no building checklist for a healthy home. Because it'd be impossible to put one together.
Rick Butler:Well, let's break this down to the most granular issue, then. Every day, I wake up at Blue Tape. I'm thinking about contractors, suppliers, builders, etc, and trying to solve a problem. So in this scenario I want to paint, I'm Homeowner Rick, and what's the most typical problem that I come to you with, Andy, in my, in terms of, I'm thinking health. So my priority, and in getting this home up to the standard that I need it to be is my value of health. What is the most general, most common, that's a better word, the most common issue that that homeowner comes to you with, "fill in the blank" health. What is that?
Andy Pace:I think that in the last couple of years, specifically, because of COVID, People have been stuck in their homes, working, you know, living, the kids are over here doing their schoolwork, everybody's, you know, on Zoom calls from home. People have finally, are starting to understand that their home needs to be their sanctuary, their home needs to be the safest place in the world that they can exist. Because they don't know what's out there. They don't know how, what's in the environment, they don't know what's in somebody else's home. So they want to come home to a healthy house. And what I mean by healthy is free of mold, free of chemical exposure, free of particulates. We all want to be comfortable, we want to sleep well. You know, if you know nothing about the the dangers of traditional construction, and the 1000s of chemicals that are used and so forth, you do know that you want to wake up every morning feeling refreshed because you slept, had a good night's sleep in your own house. It's hard to do that if you don't surround yourself with materials that allow for that. And so I think at the, as you say, the most granular nature, people want to be comfortable in their own home. And that comfort is partially brought by surrounding yourself with materials that don't pollute the air that you breathe while you're there.
Rick Butler:Excellent. I mean, this is a whole different, you know, way of thinking from the homes that I bought and the homes that I've lived in. And there's some times yeah, you wake up and you go, I don't know, was it something I ate? Was it the way I slept? I think this is a paradigm shift in the way of thinking and yeah, COVID was probably a big, you know, igniter of that. So do you call this as terms of general catch term Healthy Value Engineering? Is that a watchword that you usually use? Is it something in the industry, is that's what some people refer to this as?
Andy Pace:Sure. So I use that... So everybody who's in construction has heard the term Value Engineering before. And Value Engineering, for those who are listening that don't understand it, it's simply, if there's a budget for a project, and the project during the bidding process has gone way over budgets, the builder or the architect or a combination, the construction manager is going to go back to the owner and say, well, we can value engineer this set of drawings, meaning, we can give you what you want, the intent of what you want, but we're gonna reduce the price by changing out some of these materials. So you'll still get a good warranty on your flooring, it may not be 50 years, it might be 30 years, but the intent of the design is there, the intent of the durability is there. And so that's what's called Value Engineering, bringing the price down, getting, giving them more value to the dollar. Healthy Value Engineering is what I use with customers, when they say,"Alright, we've got this budget." And you know, whenever I asked a customer, when you know what their level of green is, or the degree of green is that I use, they'll say, "Well, we want it all, we want to live in a house that's energy efficient and doesn't off gas. And, you know, we don't want to be a contributor to outdoor air pollution, we want it sustainable, we want to be healthy environment..." Oh, wait a second, you can't have everything. So if the budget is X amount, and you get the whole job bid, and you still have money leftover in the budget, which nowadays is not too common. But if you did, maybe then we could bump up to one of those things like a metal roofing system versus asphalt, because you really liked the look of that before. But we took it out of the job because it ultimately doesn't really improve the indoor air quality or help the health of the occupants. So I call that Healthy Value Engineering. In a nutshell, we're shifting dollars away from one thing in the home or a few things in the home that ultimately don't really affect, positively or negatively, the health of the occupants. And we're shifting those dollars to things that really do matter. Flooring materials, wall finishes, cabinetry, HVAC systems, things of that nature.
Rick Butler:Let me put my builder hat on. I'm probably the first, you know, I'm the first point of contact with Joe the homeowner. Joe the homeowner says, "Hey, you know, would you work with Andy and his company as a consultant?" What's the pushback or not pushback or the receptiveness of the builders that you've been able to work with over the last few years?
Andy Pace:Yeah, you know, that's a really good question, Rick. And mainly because I have no great answer for it. But I'll answer it this way. It depends on the... it depends on the builder themselves. So yes, I've gotten pushback from some builders, but they're also the same builders that wouldn't even take advice from anybody. Right? Because they think that they know exactly how it should be done. And as we said, you know, at the outset of this, I'm learning every single day. If I'm learning, I'm dying, so- if I'm not learning, I'm dying. I gotta be learning every single day. And if, if somebody came to me and said, "You know what? I've got this fellow who really knows what he's talking about," to help the customer build a healthy home, I'm thinking,"Great!" And I've actually had that. I had a builder just a couple of weeks ago, I was explaining to them that sometimes I get some pushback, and he said, "Pushback!" He goes, "I'd be happy that somebody would take that portion of this because I know nothing. And I know my, this is what my customer wants. And this is an opportunity to give my customer what they want, and I can learn something, this is the best of all worlds." So you know, one of the kind of the ancillary questions or answers to this question is to talk about, you know, what type of builders I normally work with, and I've worked with builders all over the world. I can tell you that maybe in a few situations, and I've done 1000s of projects, only in a few situations have I ever worked with a builder who calls themselves a healthy home builder. Most of them that I work with are actually good quality custom home builders. And I like working with them, custom home builders, because, you know, everybody has had a situation before with a client where they've got, they come to you or they say, "Well, I've got 1500 pictures of a kitchen on my Pinterest page, can you can you build me that?" Right? A good custom home builder would say, yes, we can make that happen. And let's, let's, let's use this as an opportunity. The not so good builders or the ones who just aren't interested in doing custom are going to say, "Well, no, we've got our designs we like to work with, we have our designer, and we'll give you, you know, what we can, but we'll come, we'll do our best." So I prefer to work with the custom home builders who are eagerly awaiting those customers who have specific needs, because they, that's what they want to do. They want to provide a home that their customers are paying them for. So usually, in those situations, they're more than happy to have me come onboard. And I think it's getting even easier because this is becoming more mainstream. And I think there's actually a lot of, a lot of builders out there who are getting a little scared because they're being asked about this, and they don't know how to answer that question.
Rick Butler:Well, that, that leads to a perfect point. I'm thinking right now, again, I'm wearing the builder's hat right now in this conversation, just for this point. But I see this as a differentiator for that custom builder, a marketing differentiator, this is how I stand out amongst the others. I'm working with Andy, I'm working with the concerned homeowner, customer's king anyway. You know, the guy's not gonna be in business long if he doesn't look at it that way, that it's what the customer wants, because that's who's paying for it. But do you see this as a differentiator, a way that, here we go, I'm Rick, I'm Rick the homebuilder, do you see this is a way I can stand out against a crowd that are in my space?
Andy Pace:Absolutely, without a doubt, and I'll tell you what proves this point. There was a recent study done, I believe the NAHB did this, and they polled a couple 1000 people, by homeowners, what they're looking for in new construction. And without surprise, you know, the second highest was energy efficiency. Highest was human health. Matter of fact, it was, it was double energy efficiency. People today, and especially the younger homeowners, the ones just maybe buying their first home. You know, remember, they've been learning about this since grade school and earlier. Whereas, you know, someone like me, I never started learning about this until I was, you know, an adult. And I had to learn, you know, the hard way. But, you know, we have more younger homeowners coming to us saying, "Well, this is just kind of an obvious, I want to live in a home, that's not going to be, you know, poisoning my kids." And so, I think that, yes, it's a differentiator, but you also have to be careful with it. And here's why. If you're a builder that you've been building homes for 20 years, 30 years, and all of a sudden, you're advertising tomorrow that you just built a healthy home for a customer. What does that tell all the other customers that you built for the last 30 years? Well it tells them that you built them an unhealthy home.
Rick Butler:That's- it's not funny, but it's the way you just said it, that is funny.
Andy Pace:And so, and not to say you did, by any means.
Rick Butler:No, no, no.
Andy Pace:But that's what the consumer is thinking. So you have to be smart about it. And I actually work as a consultant with a couple of builders, that I help them with their marketing, so that they don't overplay their hand. They don't what we call greenwash the industry, and basically come up with all these words and phrases and then when somebody questions about it, they don't have a clue of what they're talking about. So I get them to understand what they do and their limitations, you know, what their, what their expertise is, and then to be able to market this in a way that will appeal to those who are interested but won't repel those who either don't get it or, again, are past customers and they're gonna get mad because they're living in a toxic home.
Rick Butler:Yeah, that's excellent. So, BlueTape, I work between that builder per se and the supplier, and I'm sort of BlueTape the conduit between them for finance, you know, trade credit, buy now, pay later. So with that said, builder is going to supplier, in terms of material selection, you know, homeowner has given me marching orders. I'm consulting with you now. I've got my main supplier, is this a issue in terms of having to go to a certain supplier? Supplier needing to get things in? So I guess what I'm saying, in materials solutions or material selection, I mean, is this, does this become a bigger issue for the builder? An easier issue? Or does it become a supplier issue? I hope I'm making sense in asking that.
Andy Pace:No, I totally understand that, because I'm thinking of a lot of past projects right now. Can it be a supply issue? It can be. It's getting easier. 20 years ago, if you were to come into our showroom and look at all the healthy home materials that we have, there wouldn't be many. You know, we had a really good line of paints and coatings called AFM Safecoat, we had a really good line of natural linoleum flooring called Forbo Marmoleum. And that's about it. In the last 20 years, manufacturers have really stepped up to the plate and started making healthier products, products that we can recommend to our, some of our most sensitive clients. The downside still is, though, the supply chain. And this is, now, again, comes down to what type of builder you are, if you are a spec home builder, and you've got your processes down, you're buying materials for 10 houses at a time, this is going to be a little problematic to work in one home that happens to be designed as a healthy home compared to the rest of them. Because now you're looking at different suppliers, I'm sure. If you are a homebuilder that builds one or two homes a year, three or four maybe, to be able to work with maybe a couple of new suppliers is not that big of a deal. What I always try to do as the consultant is, you know, the, one of the first questions I ask is, "Where are you from? Where are you building?" And then I'm going to tell you that whenever I start to make recommendations on materials, the first thing I'm going to try to recommend there is something that you can find locally at one of your local building supply houses. I just had a client today, actually, in a conversation. We ended up recommending a local fab shop for custom cabinetry in lieu of a bigger, more national brand that I personally work with. Because I think that in their project, they're gonna get better service, you know, I think possibly a better product overall. Because if there's any problems, they can reach out and grab them locally. And so I think that it can be difficult, but we try to make it as easy as possible because you don't really want to rock the boat. Got it. Let's do a little rapid fire here to finish up, Andy. And let's keep it from to one word to one sentence. A little rapid fire. You have a, you have a showroom where people actually can walk in? Yes.
Rick Butler:All right. Dealing with the United States, 50 states, are you dealing just in Wisconsin, are you dealing with across the US?
Andy Pace:We actually ship all throughout the world. I think just because of many barriers, most of our customers are here in the US. But yeah, we will, we will send products anywhere we need to get them into the hands of those who want them.
Rick Butler:Perfect. Best piece of advice you could give either a, let's take, best piece of advice you could give a homeowner wanting to get into this health, health aspect of building their new home.
Andy Pace:Best piece of advice, do not strive for perfection. You'll drive yourself to the poorhouse or the nuthouse or both. Just do the best you can.
Rick Butler:Good! Would, any different advice that you would give the builder from his end?
Andy Pace:Yeah, I think from the, from that perspective, I would tell the builders, please take time to learn about this because more and more clients will be coming to you in the future asking about healthy home features. And they're not looking for the builder to laugh them off and shrug them off. They're looking for a builder who is empathetic to their health issues, who can understand and is willing to learn more about this.
Rick Butler:What's the best, best way to contact you right now, my friend?
Andy Pace:Best way to go would be coming to our website to start, thegreendesigncenter.com. From there, you will find my consulting services, 1000s of products to furnish your home, links to my, I have a weekly podcast called Non Toxic Environments. We're on Instagram, we're on Facebook, all those social media platforms, but everything can be found at thegreendesigncenter.com.
Rick Butler:And that's how to contact you there, too? If I'm old school, and I got to pick up the phone, I can do it from...
Andy Pace:We actually have people answering the phones!
Rick Butler:Operators are standing by!
Andy Pace:Standing by!
Rick Butler:There you go, there you go, man. Do you want to share an email? Or do I just find that there? Again, I don't want to overcomplicate, just find it all right there on the...
Andy Pace:Andy@thegreendesigncenter.com.
Rick Butler:Perfect, perfect, man. Well, Andy, I tell you what, I've learned, and, and the way that your style, in terms of educating, and I'm sure it carries over to the way you consult, and help these homeowners and builders and you sort of being that consultant, that, that leader in this industry, man. I'm sure you're making a positive impact not only on, you know, this industry, but the environment and just people in general. So my hat's off to you, brother.
Andy Pace:Wow, thank you so much. And I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you and your audience. Please, if anybody ever has any questions about this, feel free to send me an email, or just pick up the phone call.
Rick Butler:Give that give that website one more time, because it sounds like I'll catch everything at that website. One more time.
Andy Pace:Thegreendesigncenter.com.
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