Episode 130 - Focus On Title: Goldilocks

Episode 130 of the Just Imagine Podcast takes a closer look at one of pantomime’s most colourful and fast-growing titles — Goldilocks and the Three Bears.

Host Martin Ballard is joined by Scottish actor, singer and director Andrew Agnew — best known to many as PC Plum from Balamory — alongside pantomime historian and curator Simon Sladen for a fascinating discussion exploring the history, evolution and growing popularity of this unique panto title.

From its origins in Scottish folklore and Victorian theatre through to the modern circus-inspired spectaculars audiences enjoy today, the episode uncovers how Goldilocks has transformed over the decades. The conversation explores everything from Howard & Wyndham productions and the influence of writer John Morley, to the changing portrayal of the bears and the rise of immersive circus-style pantomime.

Andrew also shares behind-the-scenes stories from Imagine Theatre’s ambitious production staged inside a real circus tent in Kilmarnock — including immersive staging, speciality circus acts, technical challenges, stormy Scottish weather and why performing panto “in the round” created such a special experience for audiences.

Along the way, the episode celebrates pantomime’s enduring links with circus, clowning and music hall traditions, reflects on the future of immersive theatre, and asks whether Goldilocks and the Three Bears could become one of the defining pantomime titles of the modern era.

The episode also features archive contributions from the late pantomime legend Nigel Ellacott, discussing the history and resurgence of Goldilocks on the British stage.

A must-listen for pantomime fans, theatre lovers and anyone fascinated by the continuing evolution of Britain’s unique festive artform.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Just Imagine, a podcast series by Imagine Theatre.

SPEAKER_04 0:08

Yes, hello again, and welcome to episode 130 of this podcast series, and this time we're discussing another stock pantomime title, that of Goldilocks and the Three Bears.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

For more information, go to their website at www.imagineetheatre.co.uk.

SPEAKER_04 0:26

Now in the last episode, we were at the UK Pantomime Association Awards 2026 in High Wickham, meeting the organisers, the nominees, and some of the winners. So far in this series, we met all sorts of fascinating guests from celebrities and backstage team members to practitioners and academics. We discussed specific panto characters and titles and talked about how pantomime is produced, its history and its future. There's an index to all of the 100 plus episodes so far, and you can check them out where you normally get your podcast from. And while you're there, don't forget to subscribe to the series so that you don't miss out on the future. So in this episode, we have the latest in our occasional series looking at the popular pantomime titles. And I'm delighted to say that I've been joined by Balamori's PC Plum, the Scottish actor, singer, and director Andrew Agnew. Hello! And the Senior Curator of Modern and Contemporary Performance at the Victoria and Albert Museum, curator of the National Database of Pantomime Performance, and founder and coordinator of National Panto Day, Simon Sladen.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Hello Martin, it's wonderful to be back.

SPEAKER_04 1:33

And again, we're going to be talking this time about Goldilocks and the Three Bears. And Simon, let's start with the history as we always do. In panto terms, some people may say this was a bit of a late arrival, but the story, of course, itself goes back to folklore and fairy tales, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Yeah, I mean we think that the earliest roots of this tale are actually a Scottish folk tale that sees a vixen get eaten after she's trespassed in a bear's den. And we see the first published version of the tale come out in 1837. In that version of the tale, which is simply called The Three Bears, they're visited by a little old woman who escapes discovery by jumping out the window. So, Fox Old Lady, we have to wait a while until 1849 that our heroine appears as a little girl as we know her today. But actually, that name of Goldilocks isn't there, and it takes another 55 years for as she's first known Silverhair, Silverlocks, Goldenhair, to evolve into the Goldilocks we know today. It's not long after, actually, that we see the first pantomime coming. 1853, Harlequin and the Three Bears, or Little Silver Hair and the Fairies at the Haymarket Theatre in London. That's their first ever pantomime there, and it features a very well-known performer of the day, Lydia Thompson, as Little Silverhair. There's lots of people that have contributed to the evolution of the genre. Even W.S. Gilbert of Gilbert and Sullivan fame in 1867. And of course, Howard and Wyndham, I mean, they really loved that title, those producers, nine times in the UK between 1925 and 1945. And really in the 1950s is where what we now know today is this circus theme comes in and starts to get solidified. You know, we don't have many narrative points. We all sort of know that story. So developing this story into two acts really has helped with this Howard and Wyndham circus inspiration. It had some little areas of performance before where that was sort of strolling minstrels. But let's go back to Scotland actually for one of their early ones. The Scotsman reported that their Goldilocks had performing bears who were spirited away. The Dame was a housekeeper, had a villainous suitor named Mysterio who was vying for Goldilocks' attention, and my personal favourite, which I would have loved to have seen, a comedy sequence aboard a flying double deck aeroplane. Olden Coliseum 1939, they've got some showman trip and trop and acrobatic dancers, lots of show business. And I think many of the versions that we know today are thanks to 1980s pantomime writer John Morley, who really introduces that notion of two rival circuses and the bears often getting stolen from one circus to another and having to retrieve them. But it is a title that's gone through huge transformation, and not only in terms of that longevity of the story from the fairy tales and that Scottish version that we know with a vixen, but also because of the changing relationship that we've had with performing animals and circuses.

SPEAKER_04 4:39

At the beginning of the 20th century, uh there weren't that many performances. I think I don't think there were any for a 10-year period. Then in 1922, Manchester Opera House presented Goldilocks with Nora Delaney, and you know, intermittently it's it's come back and gone away. Uh, you know, performances have been rare in comparison to some of the other big titles. Uh as uh Simon said, its roots were in Scotland, as were yours. When did you first become aware of this as a panto?

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Oh goodness. I mean, I think that's probably quite recent for me, to be honest. It wasn't a panto that I certainly had seen in Scotland. And when you do panto, you don't get to travel around very often, so you don't get to see other versions. But um, I think for me, um, I knew people were doing you know, Goldilocks elsewhere, but when we were offered to do it at one point, um, that was kind of my introduction to it, you know, uh, kind of personally. I knew they did it, they I think they did it in Edinburgh. I think I had a couple of friends that who had uh who went through and and kind of played some of the bears um and had a great time through there. But I think, yeah, I think it was when we got to do it in Polmarnock.

SPEAKER_04 5:45

This has a great link in in other panto terms, Simon, doesn't it? I mean Grimaldi clowning, clowns are well known in circus as well as uh the link to Punch and Judy uh uh illustrates that as well. So there is everything you need in Goldilocks, perhaps even more flexibility with the script than some of the other titles, but the flexibility for slapstick and and everything else is there, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 6:09

It is, and I think today, you know, often we think about, and and people like myself are, you know, we've so sad to see some of those key pieces of clowning and slapstick and set pieces disappear. But of course, the great thing with the framework that Goldilocks gives you is it enables you to do those and bring in as many speciality acts as you possibly can to create this world of circus. You know, in many of the uh the productions, almost every musical number or number is a circus number. So you see tumbling and aerial and fire eating, which actually, you know, we think we go to the panto once a year, we probably go to the circus even less. So it becomes a tool for capturing and celebrating, and if you like, preserving some of those things. And of course, so many great clowns have been in Goldilocks, Charlie Caroli Jr., Clive Webb, Danny Adams. I think the other things that it enables you to do, and I've been reflecting about this a lot, is it is often in some productions, the dame has a daughter, and it's the dame's daughter who obviously is the principal lead. That's quite unusual that the dame's daughter is the principal lead. So that's quite exciting. Um, it's also one where you have this wonderful role of the ringmaster, and in 1970, who played that well? Larry Grayson, years before Julian Clary was uh making jokes about um how he was the Master of the Ring uh at the London Palladium in 2019, which was just an amazing performance, you know, him there and Paul O'Grady, uh fabulous. But other camp comics, Frankie Howard's played that role as well, and actually it's interesting to think the number of female dames we've had as well in Goldilocks. So in that production, we had Dora Bryan uh with Frankie Howard, uh with sorry, not Frankie Howard, Larry Grayson, which I would have absolutely loved to have seen. Um, Bella Emberg, Sue Pollard, uh, they've all done that role as well. So I think it does enable you to be very playful about it. And of course, we have also had a very famous person playing um Baby Bear, which was Sheridan Smith when she was 12 years old uh in Scumthorpe back in 1994. Uh, the thing that we don't see these days in terms of those speciality acts, I mean, probably one of the biggest that you can see is the globe of death or something it's called, doesn't it, where you have the motorbikes all going around. I mean, that is amazing. I smell that petrol in the in the theatre. You know, there was a long period of time, certainly sort of from the 50s-ish and much little bit before. Well, we did have real bears on stage. That would have been something that you would have seen, and they would have been dancing, and they would have been performing, stretching back to that tradition. Uh that tradition which now of course we we don't do anymore for for the for the safety and the protection of the animals and the not to exploit them. That was a big European tradition though, to see a bear dancing. And I think some of those things have obviously twickled in. The circus Wild Animals Act and Circus, uh, sorry, Wild Animals and Circus Act of 2019 means that's now banned um in circuses. And so wonderfully, now we can give voice to the bears, we can make them as these 3D fully rounded characters that live together that are family unit, that tossima as an extended member of the family, and so it's an opportunity to reinvent that. And the other thing that I always think is interesting is that I think Goldilocks is probably one of the only ones where the comic gets the girl often. I've seen that in a number of shows, and that's very rewarding for an audience who is that will they won't they? And at the end, of course, not in all productions, but but there have been many, many which choose to do that in addition to him doing the type rape or various other skills.

SPEAKER_04 9:43

If you ask most people, even in the industry, they would think that Goldilocks was a recent sort of addition to the panto canon. But I mean, the first published uh story, if you like, was in 1837, and I think the first panto was in the 1850s. So it's been around quite a long time. Why do you think it's not staged as often as some of the others?

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Well, I think probably the I think the circus aspect that has become part of Goldilocks nowadays, um, trying to recreate that in um in a theatre is maybe not the easiest thing to do. Um, we got to do it in a circus tent, which was amazing. But I think maybe I think possibly some of the other titles are maybe just slightly more popular. And I don't know, I wouldn't understand why, because I do think Goldilocks has such a a great draw for Pantomine, being the the three bears, being the you know, you try one thing once, you try it again, and then you do it and it's just right. Whereas that's Panto with the rule of three that we do every time all the time. You know, we try one thing, we do it again, and then the third time, you know, we we always work on a rule of three. But so I think for Panto it leans for it, you know, towards it, no problem.

SPEAKER_04 10:48

One thing that you know people might not uh be aware of is how the stock characters fit into this because you talk about the stock characters in Panto uh being a hero or heroine, uh being a dame, being a comic, uh a baddie, and so on. How do they fit into Goldilocks?

SPEAKER_02 11:04

We had the circus theme, and the mother son was there. So we had uh the dame who I played, uh Dame Dolly Dundonald, and she ran the circus um that is kind of falling on its on hard times. And the son character is the clown within the circus. Goldilocks works in the circus. She's a for us, she was a trapeze artist. The idea was that then she goes out into the the forest on her day off, she meets the three bears, she realizes that they are great entertainers and they want to dance and they want to sing, and she suggests that they come back to the circus to perform. So I think kind of it kind of works really nicely because we had the the the son. Well, I had two sons. So I had Scott, who was like your principal boy, you had your comic, which was Donald, uh, and then Goldilocks being the kind of daughter character. So the love interest is there between the the trapeze artist and the ringmaster, who was Scott, and then the dame characters there being the owner and the clown being the son. So it works really nicely as a nice family unit. And I think with a lot of pantos like Aladdin and and so on, Jackie the Beanstalk, with the family unit is something that I really enjoy. Uh I think it works really nicely in our panto as well. The three bears obviously then comes into they come into the story and become the star of the circus. Um, so yeah, it works really nicely, I think. And and I think having done it, it has now become one of my favourites, I think, with um for that dynamic, you know, because again it was um it was a bit of a mini adventure going into the forest and the bears being there, and also that you've you've got your baddie who is the owner of the kind of rival circus, if you like, and and he then wants to come in and kidnap the bears um for his own circus to make it even more popular than it is. So, yeah, there's that kind of jealousy, the rivalry thing is there, and and of course, curiosity, which is what Goldilocks really is about. It's about being curious and about going in and trying to find something, something different, you know. And it I think it works really nicely.

SPEAKER_04 13:00

Yeah, and again, I think because the the story, the basic story, is simple and everybody knows it, but not with the the circus uh theme. And so there is a bit more flexibility there to play around with it and for smaller companies who can't maybe have uh a larger cast, they can employ puppetry for the bears, perhaps. So, you know, the the world's your oyster, and it's it's grown in popularity, I think, in the last few years in places like Telford, Plymouth, uh Darlington. You mentioned the one in Kilmarnock for Imagine, uh, and Simon, of course, the London Palladium. In fact, you went to see that production at the Richmond Theatre and then did a post-show chat with the panto legend Nigel Ellicott. What was your reaction? Was that the first time you'd ever seen Goldilocks, for instance?

SPEAKER_01 13:43

It wasn't. I remember the first time I saw Goldilocks with was with um Ross Abbott and Bella Emberg in Woking. And I remember thinking this is very different because it didn't have your traditional thigh slapping principal boy. You know, Ross Abbott was the the silly clown character, and Bella Emberg was the dame, and it had lots of clowns. And I have to say, when I was growing up, I was a little bit scared of clowns, but I was safely in the circle, so that was absolutely fine. And I remember it had a lot of songs that I recognised. I think that was the first time growing up I recognised the use and that important nature of it with bringing in songs from the time in films. And I do wonder if part of this resurgence, if you like, that certainly with now Crossroads that began with celebrating Clive and Danny's wonderful circus skills at Newcastle. Edinburgh did the production in 2019, they did it, uh, you know, at the palladium. We see Paddington, who is a bear very much in our in our minds and hearts from the film that starts, those film series that start coming out in 2014 again, and a new audience, a new younger audience are getting to know Paddington, and of course the greatest showman in 2017 with Circus. It's sort of the perfect blending of two huge juggernauts of of film. The Palladium production, of course, was was huge in every single sense, and Julian Clary as the ringmaster and Paulo Grady um in it as well. And then, of course, have toured that. So at Richmond, it was a much more intimate experience. However, Matt Baker was reviving um his role as Joey the Clown, and of course, that's a remark to nod to Grimaldi, Joey, um Joseph Grimaldi, which was wonderful. And it was great to see Nigel Ellicott, you know, one of our best ever, I mean, much, much missed pantomime performers, practitioners, historians be in a production, which I think was the first time he'd ever done it. And actually, to have that sort of central role that he did as the dame in that was wonderful, but it is amazing. Doing it in a tent brings it to the circus. But there's so many clever ways that in a pristine in March Theatre you can create that sense of circus. And of course, pantomime encourages you to break the fourth wall and go out and in. And of course, with circus, you can you can so wonderfully do that in that production. And I remember Nigel saying to me it was a funny show because they'd been directed to exit and enter almost always the same way. So they would exit stage left and they would come on stage right, and and in reflection, that was as if you were in the ring constantly going round and round and round all the all the time. But um, I have to say, an exhausting show because you are you are on on on all the time, and you are constantly, you know, it's full octane, circus is full octane, and maybe you get a slight breath of announcing the next the next thing. But the audiences really do it embrace that wonderful world, and it is one that you can go bang straight out with, you know, the the circus has come to town, and you still get your villainous evil character from the rival circus, which is quite frequently, you know, we talked about how in the 50s there was quite a strong presence of Goldilocks. In the 50s, we certainly had this sort of Germanic accent, which still is in some productions today. Obviously, we've just you know, post-second world war, we've been thinking about the villains and rivalry and sort of, I suppose, in essence, European circus compared to the practice within the UK. But that was a very um special moment for me to share the stage afterwards with Nigel and talk about his career uh and that production uh at Richmond Theatre, which was also the first time that they had ever done Goldilocks as well. So there is the opportunity for a number of venues across the UK. You mentioned a whole string of them in the last few years that have embraced Goldilocks, but it's a good title and it's one that audiences definitely enjoy, and for many, they can enjoy welcoming it for the for the first time and bringing something new to it.

SPEAKER_04 17:41

We did speak to Nigel Ellicott on a previous episode of the Just Imagine podcast, and it was great to catch up with uh the panto legend, and this is what he had to say about Goldilocks.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Back in the day, the wonderful Paul Elliott, basically Goldilocks was his his key to pantomime because the first time he ever put pantomimes on, I think it was uh probably Hull, I think was his first one, uh late 60s, about 68, 69, he went to Howard and Windham and said, What have you got left? And they said, Well, we've got Goldilocks, and he said, Right, I'll have it. And took the scenery and he put Goldilocks on. Then later on, I I sort of remember it having a resurgence, and it came back with uh, you'll recall Frank Bruno. And and now it's back again, it's revived, and uh it fascinated me so much that on my website I thought, what I'll do is I don't know anything about Goldilocks, so I'll look at the history of it and where where it started. I bet you it's Victorian. It's not. It is a 1920s creation, and we we have to thank David Croft, the author of um things, you know, like um Are You Being Served, uh, Dad's Army and all the rest of it. He was the man who basically got hold of this ramshackle bit of fairy tale and said, Right, we're gonna set it in a circus, this is how it's gonna go. And more or less we stick to that format.

SPEAKER_04 19:01

The late, great, and much-missed Nigel Ellicott giving us his views on Goldilocks and the three bears. And in fact, you can hear that full episode with Nigel on the Just Imagine series. Uh, just go where you normally get your podcast from and look for episode 46. Now, Andrew, we were talking about the immersive aspect of the Kilmarnock Panto in the circus tent, but of course that enabled you as well to add all sorts of other circus elements, didn't it? Speciality acts and so on.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

We did. We were yeah, we were really lucky. Actually, we had uh Geo Mumladzi who work in circus a lot and have toured in circus a lot. So we had real life acts and big, impressive acts as well. You know, I think it's probably quite easy to maybe bring in some circus elements and just have them quite small. And but we had we filled the circus ring with tramp, you know, trampolines and high diving boards, and you know, we had quite a lot of nice kind of visual things uh and a couple of other acts as well, juggling, you know, feet juggling and um that they the the the same duo offer and it worked really nicely within the the environment because again we're doing a pants mine in a in a circus tent, in a you know, in a circus ring, but it was really nice, although although we had a lot all the palpanzo elements there, it was really nice to kind of just introduce that other aspect. And it was quite nice as well, because it meant that then I had, you know, I th I thought maybe I would have time to then have a slightly longer costume change, but I was on the stage watching the acts, so it didn't quite work out that way. Uh I still had 14 costumes to change into, but these moments were lovely because I could stand among the audience and be out because it was really immersive when we did it, because we had the the chance to take the characters out into the audience and and around the the ring. Um so we would stand out amongst the kids and watch the acts and comment as the acts were happening and cheer them on and you know, do all that kind of thing that that happens in a circus. That was really lovely to be involved in that. So, and again, having the having Joe Momladzi with us really added that authenticity, I think, if you like, of the circus ring.

SPEAKER_04 21:00

Now, Andrew, you mentioned that sort of immersive uh factor of of being in the round and you know being uh in a more sort of immersive atmosphere within that circus big top. It's something we're seeing perhaps a little bit more in theatre at the moment as well, and we've seen a lot of musical theatre, Cabaret and Godspell and Guys and Dolls in that sort of immersive way in the round. Crucible in Sheffield have just been given funding so they can do more theatre in the round as well. I guess Goldilocks can open up many other non-traditional proscenium arch venues as well in that respect, can't it?

SPEAKER_02 21:33

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I'd it was it was very exciting to have that. And I mean, I go to a lot of immersive theatres, I'm a big fan of it. And I know the the the the places that you've just rhymed off there, I've certainly supported a lot of the shows and some of the shows that you would never think, like Guys and Dolls and Immersive Guys and Dolls, you would never think that would be something that would be exciting. But I can tell you it was absolutely phenomenal. But I think as you say, yeah, like I think nowadays anywhere can become a venue for pantos, particularly when theatres and Getting renovated. And that happens a lot nowadays. You know, they'll they'll close a theatre down to put in some new mod cons. So panto, to to save a panto and to make sure it still happens for the surrounding areas and that the theater doesn't close completely. Panto can happen pretty much as long as the space is big enough. Uh last year I got to do one in what was a sports hall, and they created a you know a proscenium arch stage and and it works really nicely again. So yeah, I'm all for it. I'm all for any of these venues, kind of as long as as long as the show fits, I think that's what's important. As long as it's that the panto doesn't suffer from it, it can only be enhanced. And the tent enhanced Goldilocks for us, which was uh which was a big bonus.

SPEAKER_04 22:42

Yeah, I think your staging, Andrew, in the tent was refreshing and the circus acts certainly added something that people wouldn't ordinarily see in Panto, which is always welcome. But I have to say as well that when you do stuff like that, particularly in Scotland in the middle of winter, that can bring its own challenges, can't it?

SPEAKER_02 23:00

Yes, of course. They actually looked after us really nicely in the tent, and we were really warm and you know, but of course, we had a bit of flooding at one point. We actually we had a cancelled show at one point. It was really early on in the run. Um, we got the run opened, and actually it was fine at that point. And then overnight we got a bit of a landslide thing happened beside the tent, and where the dressing rooms were, uh we got a bit of soggy floors going on. So they actually cancelled one of our matinees, and within the between that time and the evening performance, they built us a new floor outside for the for the dressing rooms, and then and and and actually it works really nicely. So, yeah, we we did have our moments and we only had that one cancel showed. We didn't have anything. We've we thought we might have had more problems being uh in November and December in a tent in Scotland. We thought you know, we're up against it here, but actually we did really we did okay. We had a few gusts of wind and things where we thought this tent is calm, this tent's going to get lifted off the ground. But the show must go on. We were doing it, and actually it kind of added to it, particularly when they we had the the the baddie ringmaster coming on in the thunder and lightning and the tent was blown. We thought this is quite dramatic, actually. It's quite good fun. What about the actual show itself?

SPEAKER_04 24:07

Did it bring any more challenges? I'd imagine that you know, with speciality acts and so on, and and the environment that you're in, the technical rehearsal uh might have been a little bit more complicated, for instance.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Yeah, we had slightly longer to take the show and to make sure that everything because safety obviously comes first when it comes to anything like when you're working with any sort of circus axe or anything, you know, everything was was kind of looked after properly and made sure that everything was really safe. So we needed to make sure that was the case. And obviously, we had to make sure our lighting and the sound could our sound engineer, Dom, he was working, and you know, you don't have walls to bounce sound off, you know. So you're in a tent, you've got to make sure that these things are all as much as they can, they need to be for pan. So you know, there's a standard that you need to give, um, and that can't drop. So you worked really hard to make that to make that happen. And it did, you know, it did. We had probably about about a week of tech, actually, which normally, as you know, we probably have two or three days in some theatres, if you're lucky. So we had a bit more time to do what we needed to do. But what was also something we had to think about was going from a rehearsal space and then putting the show into the tent. Because if you're rehearsing something that's immersive, you need more time to then space that out. Because again, if you're in a you're in a nice, you know, a big rehearsal space, but you're not in a circus ring and you're not in a tent. So you have to then allow time for that to you know spread out a wee bit and for people to find the areas that we're going to play these little moments in. And even though you have that in your mind when you're rehearsing, you have to find it again when you get into the into the venue. So that again just takes a wee bit of time to get that all absolutely right, making sure that the dancers are out in the audience and that if they're on the little stairwells or something, that you know, they've got the right amount of light that they need to do what they need to do, because it is a tent, you know, it's not a theatre, there's not, there's nothing, you know. You're you're doing it outside pretty much. So that takes a bit of time as well. And again, just kind of making sure that the digital side of it, because we we relied quite a lot on the digital screens for our backcloths and things, because again, we were there's no flying or anything, so we didn't have anything like that. We uh I tried my best to distract things as much as I could. So, again, when you're setting three beds and three chairs and a table and three bowls of porridge and stuff that you need to set on the middle of a circus ring, that there's enough going on in the circus at the time so that you can set all this stuff and do it through, you know, with a bit of narrative as well. So there's a bit of theatrics about it, and it's not just people coming on with a chair and plunking it down. So that needs time. You need time to do that, and luckily we did, which was nice.

SPEAKER_04 26:40

Very, very strange uh in terms of blocking for performers who are used to an apron, cross arch stage, and so on. Because, you know, in in a an immersive environment where the audience are all around you, the blocking is imperative because otherwise, uh, you know, two-thirds of the audience will be looking at the back of the actors' heads and so on. So it's got to keep moving in many ways, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 27:02

It really does, it really does. And I'm a big fan of that anyway. I mean, anything that I direct, it's I think some of the actors are exhausted by the end of it because that because everything has to keep moving, particularly if it's for children. You want kids to be entertained and to stay focused on what you're doing. I think sometimes people coming on and just standing on a stage talking, it doesn't really grab kids, you know. I think you need to keep things moving. So for me, that was okay because I tend to I like things to keep moving anyway. And uh there was actually one scene that I redirected completely when we got into the tent. We had we had staged it slightly differently. And then when I got the duo mum lads the uh trampoline and the diving board and the different aspects that we needed for that routine, when we actually got it into the ring, there was no room for any other actors because we were all standing around watching that happen. So there were four of us or five of us on the stage whilst this was getting set around us, and it was just so big that at that point we thought there's no there's no space for anyone. So I then re-blocked it, and again, this is the immersive thing. You can take people and put them somewhere completely different. So we we then kind of almost brought not the house lights up, but you make it feel more like uh an empty tent that people are actually just sitting in. So it's like a rehearsal for that, and we set it around and we were kind of shouting across the tent to each other and just made it the audience part of what the scene that what that we were doing. And these things come from the little problems that you come up against when you're not really a hundred percent sure what it's going to be like when you get there and thinking on your feet. But yeah, you've got to keep it moving and you've got to, you know, make sure that you know that people are not facing the one direction for too long and that the whole stage keeps revolving, if you like.

SPEAKER_04 28:38

In many ways, Simon, it sort of returns to the sort of music hall roots of having speciality acts that were incorporated in the in the Kilmarnic panto. Uh, it takes panto maybe in a a slightly different direction in that continuing uh evolution of the genre, doesn't it? And that's not a bad thing.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

No, it's not a bad thing at all. And in terms of it sort of taking those steps in evolution, it also helps to capture and keep alive some of those practices which we might not see elsewhere, but also it reminds us of sort of pantomime's global roots from the Italian Commedia del Arte and other influences, being able to engage some of the best circus people from around the world to celebrate that skill and artistry, whether that is trapeze axe or fire eating or uh tumbling, balancing, foot juggling, you know, all this wonderful array uh of performance forms, and also being able to really excel and celebrate slapstick, you know, clowning at its centre. I also think if we look at this trajectory really over the past five years, it's funny to look at the top titles. Historically, Cinderella was always going to be up there, but you would have had male-led narratives at the top. So you would have certainly in recent years Aladdin, Jack and the Beanstalk, Whittington, Peter Pan came up. More historically, you would have had Robinson Crusoe. That has really shifted and changed, and now we see Cinderella, Jack and the Beanstalk, but we see Sleeping Beauty, Beauty and the Beast. And I think another female-led narrative, Goldilocks, is really exciting with the ways that we're looking at what pantomime is, what it can be. It's also a title that does not have any, if you like, airs and graces about royal families, about status, it's about all being together in the ring from all walks of life, all nationalities, all backgrounds to create a show and to get it on and to be there together. And I think that is another thing which we might see it increase in its popularity and thinking about what are the opportunities here? What stories can we tell and what aspects can we do? And actually, I think for many performers they quite like being cast in it because they think, Oh, what skills am I going to learn? Am I going to learn juggling or can like is there an opportunity to add to that? I know a number of performers who've been in it have said, Oh, I now have a good party trick or I can do this as a result of it. Um, in 1926, the stage reported four productions. In 1949, there were ten productions. So it it's never been heavily dominant, but it you know, certainly we're getting up to the centenary of those four productions that the stage reported on. I mean, I really hope too that it it will grow and it keeps that strong female presence in there. I think it's really interesting. We've had a number of female games, you know, the camp comic, that's a very other aspect that's introduced, the difference of the comic not necessarily always having to be the son or a younger character, and the opportunity to also explore things in costuming. I mean, Mike Coltman, what he's developed in those bear costumes, making them wearable, maneuverable, really full of character, as opposed to historically up until probably the the 90s and early 2000s, a full head and you'd have it on track. That's brought a new dimension to the character, which means we can have it in full. So I think Goldilocks we will hopefully keep seeing year on year, but some increases.

SPEAKER_04 32:00

Do you agree with Simon, Andrew? We've seen obviously the greatest showman movies, now a stage show. Barnum is back out on tour. We may see Pippin again. I mean, circus and theatre marry well together, but maybe circus and panto even better. Do you think Goldilocks and the three bears has a rich future?

SPEAKER_02 32:19

I do, yeah, I really do. I think what's lovely about Goldilocks, and the thing that I enjoyed one well, one of the things I enjoyed most about it was the fact that you're doing a show within a show. So you get, we got to perform as a circus, and then when you're not performing as a circus, then you get the story aspect, which is your your cottage with the with the the bulls, etc., and all the all the story that you need to put across. But then there's those elements where you get, particularly for a dame, I had fish nets on and a big and big feathers and all sorts of stuff. You know, we had we had phenomenal costumes, and for that you're getting the show aspect, which is bringing out you know, real theatre, real old-fashioned styled um kicking your legs and being showy in a number, and then you're getting the other number, the other numbers, which are the love duets and stuff which happen between it's the backstage stuff, isn't it? So the backstage stuff and the onstage stuff happens in a panto, which doesn't, you know, there's no other really panto that has that, you know. So I think for for the entertainment side of things, as an audience coming to see it, you're getting a panto, you're getting a circus, and you're getting a musical. So you're like, well, there's nothing wrong with that, is there?

SPEAKER_04 33:28

No, I totally agree. But here's the um key question. Do you think Goldilocks and the three bears as a panto actually works better in a circus tent than it might in a theatre?

SPEAKER_02 33:40

Oh well, so having not done it in a theatre, um, I can only say the how much I felt it worked within the tent. And yeah, I mean, I think doing it on a big stage, I think it would probably still work as well. The thing that you you wouldn't get the immersive side of things. So you well, you would get some of it. You would be able to come out into the stalls and and do some nice things out there, I'm absolutely sure. But feeling as if you're sitting out around that circus ring and you know, you wouldn't necessarily have that. So I kind of think that, you know, people, producers in the future that are looking maybe to do it as a panto and and can have a space to put a tent up and do it as a slightly more immersive, I would certainly say do it because we had a great time. But also in a theatre, you know, you can do you can do lot different things in a theatre that you can't do in a circus tent. So there's there's a bit of both, you know, there's there's probably more scenes and maybe the scenery itself on stage can be slightly more involved than it can be when you don't have anything that can fly in the tent and things. So yeah, I mean, uh I would certainly I would love to see a Goldilocks in a theatre. As I say, it's it's quite impossible to go and see other people working at Christmas. But one of these days I might be able to do that and and get to see it and see how that works. But but I know my I know where my heart would lie, and I think no, get it in a circus tent because I think it works really nicely.

SPEAKER_04 34:58

Well, here's the perfect combination. I mentioned the Crucible getting funding, you know, to be able to do more performances in the round, and there are other theatres up and down the country that have that facility. Maybe that might be the perfect setting for Panto in the round, in a theatre.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

Absolutely, definitely. I mean, I did a Sea Babies Live years ago and it was set in a circus in the arena tours. So we took a circus ring basically around the UK and it felt like you were in a circus. So I think something like that, you know, would be perfect for Panto. Yeah, any of these venues would yeah, they would be wise to do it.

SPEAKER_04 35:32

Well, it's been another fascinating conversation. Andrew and Simon, thank you so much for talking to us, and I'm afraid that's it for now. Don't forget to subscribe through your favourite podcast app, and make sure you join me, Martin Ballard, next time for episode 131, when I'll be chatting to the writer, producer, manager, and resident Panto Dame at Theatre 7 in Shrewsbury, Brad Fitt.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

Thank you for listening to the latest edition of Just Imagine, the podcast series from Imagine Theatre. And you can find out more by going to www.imagine theatre.co.uk