Episode 132 - Sustainability

Episode 132 – Building a Greener Future for Pantomime

Released during Great Big Green Week 2026, Episode 132 of the Just Imagine Podcast sees host Martin Ballard joined by Imagine Theatre Joint CEO Sarah Boden and Operations & Production Administrator Jaz Evans to explore the company's sustainability journey and commitment to greener theatre-making.

Following the recent Theatre Green Book assessment of Sleeping Beauty at Stafford Gatehouse Theatre, Sarah and Jaz discuss how sustainability has become embedded in every stage of Imagine's production process — from set, costume and prop reuse to transport, energy efficiency, waste management and long-term planning.

The conversation looks at how Imagine Theatre achieved Advanced Status under the Theatre Green Book framework, why collaboration with venues and partners is essential, and how sustainable practices can benefit both the environment and the business. Sarah and Jaz also share insights into the company's ongoing carbon reduction journey, the importance of continual improvement, and their ambitions to roll out the process across more productions in the future.

As communities across the UK come together for Great Big Green Week, this episode highlights how the theatre industry can play its part in creating a more sustainable future.

For more information and to read the full Production Environmental Impact Report, visit imaginetheatre.co.uk.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Just Imagine, a podcast series by Imagine Theatre.

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Hello again and welcome to episode 132 of Imagine Theatre's podcast series, and this time we're going to discuss Imagine's sustainability strategy following a recent assessment at the Gatehouse Theatre in Stafford.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

For more information, go to their website at www.imagineheatre.co.uk.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

In the last episode, I was joined by the actor, director, writer, and manager who's the resident dame at Theatre 7 in Shrewsbury, Brad Fitt. If you missed it, you can still check it out along with all of the other previous episodes, and don't forget to subscribe to the series so that you don't miss out in the future. Now in this episode, we're going to discuss Imagine Theatre sustainability strategy, how to embed greener decision making in a company of Imagine size, and so on. I've been joined by joint CEO Sarah Bowden.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Hi Martin, that is a really exciting opportunity to uh talk about something that's a little bit different. So looking forward to this one, Martin.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Absolutely. And also the operations and production administrator who drove a recent sustainability assessment at the Gatehouse Theatre in Stafford, Jasmine Evans.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

Hello, Martin. Thank you so much for having me. Great to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

First of all, I've got to say, Sarah, congratulations. We all had a great time at the time of recording, it's a couple of days after the UK Pantomime Awards. We all had a great time. Imagine eight nominations, picking up some awards as well. So well done, Sarah, first of all.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Oh thanks, Martin. It was it's just such a great night, the Panto Awards. Um it's great to bring the industry together in the way that it does. We are really, really a small group of people when it comes down to it. Um and to get to see everybody say hi, catch up the news, and to just celebrate everybody's achievements is always such a wonderful evening.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Yeah, it absolutely was. Only problem, really, Jazz, was you had sore feet.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

Oh my goodness. Note to self, do not wear heels that high because I think that was the the motto of the evening was my feet hurt. Should have brought some flip-flops.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Great night though. Congratulations to all the nominees and to uh obviously the the winners, the imagined winners. Uh, well done to all of you. Let's start, Sarah, by talking about sustainability itself. Why is sustainability so important uh in the 21st century? And just explain if you can as well what the theatre green book framework is.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Yeah, so I think sustainability is just something that we have to embed into our conscience, really, across everything that we do. I think everybody would agree that single-use plastics are not ideal, that actually the planet that we live on is our home. And we've probably lost sight of that and we've probably used and abused it a little bit too much. And we all have, you know, Martin, you've got a son, I've got a daughter, and um, it's really important that we hand the planet over to them in a better condition than we found it, and then they can hand that over to their future generations as well. So that's that's kind of the underlying bit of it. Imagine is a family production company, so it's it's it's a family at the helm, it's family-led in what we do as our product, and so that really has to be our focus. So that's why sustainability became so important to us. We started our journey probably five years ago now with can we become carbon neutral? What does that look like? What's the journey from becoming carbon neutral by offsetting to becoming net zero? It was where the conversation started. And also at the same time, the theatre green book was going down that same conversation too, probably seeing too many sets and costumes and props being thrown in a skip at the end of productions or seeing things that weren't being reused. And so the framework was very much about building sustainability into the heart and the core of what theatre does. So that's kind of what the framework is. It gives you an opportunity to assess your production. So rather than the carbon neutral journey for an entire company that Imagine is going on, it starts to hone down into individual productions, or it looks at buildings, or it looks at operations as individual processes and helps you to achieve your process improvements as it goes along.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

So you said this has sort of uh happened over a five-year period, but in effect, uh Imagines Company, the original uh telltale, which became Wish, came out of that sort of recycling philosophy because somebody, um probably Steve, looked at the Belgrade Theatre, the sets and costumes that were being used there, that weren't being used again afterwards, and thought, you know, this is the foundation for a new company.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Yeah, absolutely. And and and you know, it's theatre is unbelievably expensive by its nature, not just by its salaries and its running costs, but its pre-production costs and its build costs. And Panto doesn't run for very long to recoup its costs, and you only have a small period of time to cover all the costs of putting that production on. So not only did it become evident that that was unsustainable to be building new every single year, but the opportunity came, as you rightly said, Steve, kind of went, what if we build a collection of things that we have? What if we build a portfolio of sets and costumes and props which underpin the productions, but also allow us to keep recycling and allow us to keep reusing and keep us sustainable? So yeah, it does that that whole ethos underpins everything we do. It's kind of always been there, really. It's now just seeing its labels being put on it, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Now I mentioned the assessment jazz, which uh was in partnership really with the gatehouse, uh, fabulous support from the team in Stafford. Just explain to us how the assessment came about in the first place.

SPEAKER_03 5:41

Yeah, absolutely, Martin. So I used to be the deputy stage manager over at the Gatehouse. So I already had uh a really great relationship with the Gatehouse Theatre. So that was kind of the basis as to why we chose to hone in on this one particular production this year to put through the theatre green book calculator. And it just meant that we had that shorthand already. If I needed some questions about, you know, what type of lighting they were using, or have they got water refill stations, all of those different questions. I knew exactly who to go to. We already had that shorthand and we could have those open and honest conversations. I mean, you know, sustainability is not a very linear process, it's a little bit up and down. And I think we have to be really open and honest and say, you know, we're doing really well at this particular part of it, but actually we haven't got this in place yet. And I think because of the relationship that I had um and imagine already have with Stafford, it just made those conversations that little bit easier.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Now, I've taken a look at the report that you put together. It's comprehensive and there are lots of different areas to it. But Jazz, the important thing is with any of this planning, it has to be embedded in the forward planning before you even go into production, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 6:59

Yeah, 100%. That's correct. I think what's really, really important is having those conversations from the get-go. Let's have those conversations within our production meetings as we're bringing our creative teams on board. If they know that this is something that you know we're really passionate about and that holds strong in our values and our morals, they can continue to think about sustainability and their choices ahead of time. Because if we can make a decision that we'd like something added into a dance routine, for example, like some ribbons or whatever it is that the creative team would like, it's really important. If we can have that information in September, we can pop that in with the props package for it to go out instead of it coming to us, for example, in the the middle of a rehearsal session, and then we have to send additional couriers. And it's all about consolidating all of our work and pre-planning is really, really key to be able to make those conscious decisions and much greener decisions, quite frankly.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

And of course, earlier in the year, Sarah, we talked about um the review of the previous season, uh, as well as you know going into forward planning for the next one. But this process, the sustainability strategy, has to go right the way through to the review, and that's one of the things in the review time at the end of the season that you would have discussed.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yeah, it is, absolutely. It's start it's start to end, really, Martin. So it starts right at the beginning with choosing which sets and props and costumes you're going to use, right the way through the whole process that Jazz is describing of making sure it's in the production meetings, of making sure that that is a constant underpinning of everything we do. But right the way through to sitting in the venue, you know, the show debuts and the venue debuts at the very end and saying, could we have done more? What did we do that we wanted to do? Were there any areas that we missed? Because that's the bit that will allow us to grow it moving forward. And I think that's the bit that uh loads and loads of venues have come to us after we've made the announcement of what we've achieved and said, How did you do it? And uh as Jazz says, uh it's consolidation and planning. Plan, plan, plan. The more you plan it, the easier it becomes to build sustainability into your what you're doing. And I think that's the biggest lesson that we've learned from it all.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Now, Jazz, there are various sections. There are, I mean, it is really comprehensive, and there are some areas that that people may not even have considered, but the obvious areas are yeah, things like uh scenery from the build to transportation, uh costumes and props and so on. So, how was this monitored along the way?

SPEAKER_03 9:38

Yeah, as you say, it's very, very comprehensive, and and there's a fair amount of data that does go into the tracker, but for us, I think it's relatively easy. We have a stock list, if you will, of everything that we have in our stores, and that made it super easy for me. The Theatre Green Book have made everything really quite accessible anyway. So you just input into the calculator what piece of scenery it is, what it's made out of, and whether that's a sustainable material or not, and then how heavy it is, as well as what we then do with it, what its future life will be. And within Stafford, we were really lucky that the set that we already had was good, fit for purpose, and fitted perfectly into Stafford's venue. So we didn't need to build anything additional. It was all a case of putting everything back together, giving it all of the extra glitter that it needed, but all of those repairs and those bits of maintenance were all done in a sustainable way, which is really helpful. So all of that information just gets popped into the tracker. And for us, we're really lucky, obviously, that we have this brand new building of Trafalgar House because everything then does come back to us. Nothing um from the Stafford set was thrown away this year. So that all comes back to us, which helped us to gain 100% on the theatre green book calculator for our set and scenery, which is fantastic.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

Yeah, and we've spoken on the podcast many times, Jazz, about the fact that everything is well maintained at Imagine. So it's future-proofed. But when it comes to new build, and that can be the smallest prop to the biggest piece of scenery, Jazz, it has to be built to last, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 11:20

100%. You're absolutely correct, which I think is why when we are looking at new writing, new scripts, all of those different things, it's again sustainability, as Sarah was saying, is underpinning everything we do. So I think our teams here, our props team, our wardrobe team, etc., all go through those scripts and go, is this a prop that we can use again? Will this be a script that we will use again? And if it is, and we think it's something that we will be able to continue to use, we then speak to our props maker, our costume maker, etc. But all of our props are built with um the idea of having at least a five-year lifeline. But we have props and costumes in this store that are over 10 years old, and that's as a result of good building of the items as well as good maintenance of those items, which is really helpful. And like we say, our business is such a circular business that we're really lucky we can just keep everything stored and maintained, and it can go out again and it looks as good as it did on day one when we first received it.

SPEAKER_00 12:23

Sarah, as you know, I did my bit for 30 years because I used to recycle the same gags, didn't I?

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Oh, absolutely, Martin. All the best gags are recycled, mate. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

What about transportation then? Because that is a big thing. We've discussed this many, many times, and thankfully, you have a uh a site now which is much more easier to get in and out with the large trucks and so on. But transport to become carbon neutral has to be carefully considered, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 12:49

It does, and we, you know, Dave and our team did a lot of homework about picking the right transport partner, and we had worked with the transport partner for years, but when it came down to it, we just weren't quite sure about their green credibility, and we started to shop around and eventually we found our current partner who um now work purely or pretty much purely with HVO fuel. So basically, the the basis of their fuel is vegetable oil, recycled vegetable oil, which has an almost zero carbon output. So instantly overnight, by changing our provider, we were able to take our carbon footprint on transport, not all of our transport, but certainly our articulated lorries and our mega cubes, we were able to take that down to pretty much zero on our footprint. And that to us became an absolute no-brainer. Not only were they doing the right thing sustainably, but they were doing the right thing logistically as well, our partners. And it's those kind of sensible choices which are the big quick wins. And that's again, you know, the other headline that we kind of come up with is what are the big quick wins? There's lots of detail you can sit behind all of this, but look for the headline wins to start with. And transport has definitely been one of those for us.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Jazz, one thing that many people may not have considered, and and I look back, you know, to pantomimes that I've been in over the last 20 or 30 years, and they used to be boxes and boxes of throwaway batteries, um, which doesn't happen anymore because there's a strategy towards that and to more rechargeable batteries, isn't there?

SPEAKER_03 14:26

Yes, absolutely. There's lots of different uh shows that are using rechargeable batteries, and that's absolutely the way that we should be heading. It means so much less goes into landfill. Unfortunately, at the minute, because of the way our systems work, we're not actually able to use the rechargeable batteries at the moment because, as we say, we only work uh on our productions for those kind of three to four weeks at the end of the year, and then storing them in a warehouse doesn't allow us to um use them to their full potential and actually potentially degrades the the worth of that battery. So at the moment, that's our one big thing in our technical area that we'd love to focus on, but there are still ways to be able to recycle our batteries, and that was a great thing that we had with Stafford. We had that open dialogue and the conversation with them. So they had recyclable battery bins. We made sure that, for example, if we had a little charge left in our batteries, we were able to use them for those smaller sound calls or smaller times that we needed to use them in tech. So we tried to use as much of the battery up as possible, and then they were all recycled. So, okay, it's not quite the rechargeable battery route, which we'd love to go down at some point when the technology is there, but it's absolutely still a better foot forward to be able to recycle them in the way that we can now.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Yeah, absolutely. And of course, the fact that you're thinking about them is something that certainly didn't happen 10, 15 years ago. Sarah, what about other ways to actually reduce the use of energy in your building, in rehearsal rooms, in the venues themselves?

SPEAKER_02 16:09

Yeah, again, it's it's a challenging one, isn't it? Because we work with power hungry equipment now. Our mobile phones require charging. Our I'm sitting here at my desk in Imagine HQ, and I've got three screens and a laptop and a my, you know, I don't have a paper notebook, I have a remarkable that I keep all my notes on. So, you know, I'm looking at a power hungry desk and it's how do we reduce that down? How do we make sure that we turned off all the heating at the right times? How do we, you know, we've got less fridges in the building? Are we using our dishwashers on the lowest power mode that we possibly can? All of these things are pieces of work that are, you know, I describe it as a bit like the British cycling team when suddenly the British cycling team became the most successful team in the world. And it was because they'd thought about the small incremental reductions that taken 0.1 of a second off because the helmet was better designed, and they'd taken 0.1 of a second off because of the material they used in their wheels and in the cost and in the cycling outfits that people were wearing. And each of those tiny little incremental changes turned them into the best team in the world. And we that's the kind of ethos that we have here. The big win headline wins will get you the very quick results. But underlying underneath of all of this is those very small things that you can chip away at, like minimal power that you can use, and how do we reduce you know the number of times a dishwasher goes round, and how can we reduce all of these elements and things like that? And and it and it's that mindset that we that underpins who we are. And we were talking, Giles, weren't we, about the savings that we made in transport on the Stafford Panto and touching on transport again. And because we had pre-planned all of the things that we were talking about, we pre-planned more things about the props that were going, we'd pre-planned more about the costumes, we'd asked all the right questions. We'd thought about asking the questions that needed to be asked. We discovered that on the Stafford Panto alone, there was a significant financial saving in transport costs. And you suddenly times that by the 21 productions that we're doing. And you go, not only are we doing the right thing sustainably, but potentially we're also doing the right thing business-wise as well. And there's potential cost savings in there. And that was the bit that I think surprised us most was by asking the right questions and by thinking in this way, not only are we saving energy by you know using the heating less or using the power less at head office, we're potentially making savings by using less transport. And that's the outcome that we haven't expected, I think.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Jazz, something else that people don't consider is the amount of waste, and that can be in any number of different areas. It could be, you know, when you're prop building or when you're you know set building, there will be an uh some waste. There might be waste at the end of the run of a show. You know, in in the days gone by, for instance, in a rehearsal, somebody might have said, Oh, we just need this extra prop. This would be a really good prop for a gag. And then, of course, it's never used again. So the waste at the end of the run would be there as well. What about managing waste in general?

SPEAKER_03 19:20

Yeah, absolutely. It is one of those things that we need to look at is those waste systems. We've got a really good waste provider that works with us at HQ that separates through all of our waste at head office. So we're 100% sure that everything is recycling uh or being recycled, sorry. Our waste providers uh here at Imagine HQ are really great. They work with us to make sure that everything that we can recycle can be recycled. We also have a really great uh confidential waste team as well here, so we know that all of our scripts, etc., are being recycled but disposed of in the correct way to ensure that all of our um GDPR things are protected in in those ways. I think we've got one little area that we'd like to look at, which are all of our undergarments, it's our tights and all of those different things that currently we can't physically keep them, we can't wash those, unfortunately, but everything else from our costume team, for example, do come back to us and touching on some of the ways that we're saving money within our head office team. I'm currently looking outside the window and we've got some gorgeous sunshine coming in at the minute, and we've now got some washing lines outside. So all of our dame's t-shirts and undergarments, those types of things can be washed and they're being dried outside, which uses significantly uh less uh of our tumble drying time, less energy because we don't have to use the hot boxes as much. But it's only really those tights and undergarments that we have to start looking at a more suitable way to dispose of, which is currently one of my tasks at the moment, where there is a company out there who take them all away from us, they'll shred them all up and put them into things like cushion stuffing, which will be fantastic if we can use something like that. Because once that is done, I think we've got a really, really great system of we either store it if it's got long-term use, or we dispose of it in the most suitable way, and we know that everything is going back correctly and nothing is going into landfill.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

Now, of course, Sarah, um imagine theatre doesn't work in isolation. You have all sorts of partners, not least the venue. And for anything like this, for any sort of um strategy, you have to work with those partners, and they've all been really supportive.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

Gosh, absolutely. I think every single theatre that we're working with is aware of what we're doing and the need to make change. I mean, the Trafalgar um venues, obviously, part of our family. First three venues have achieved their basic status in the theatre green book for buildings and Operations, which is a slightly different take on it to the to the shows that we're talking about. Obviously, we here at Imagine because we have a building, we have a building um responsibility too within the green book. So that's a huge piece of work that we're doing as well at the minute. But yes, the theatres all understand. And because we've been through this journey with one, you we wanted to start with could we do it with one? What might it look like? We're going to start rolling out across multiple venues. I don't think we'd be able to do all venues this year because there's actually quite a lot of work in the starting of the prep. But certainly I'd we'd like to see another four or five come on board this year being measured by the green book and then gradually get to the point where they're all measured by the green book. Um and it just being the underpinning ethos of everything that we do with them and working alongside. Because I think if you bring a panto in that's green, it feeds green work in everywhere else and it just naturally begins the conversations.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

I think you're absolutely right. So, Jazz, at the end of this, the production environmental impact report was produced and you presented that. Who did you present it to and what was the outcome?

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Gosh, who haven't I presented it to? Uh I first of all did an internal presentation to the team at Imagine as well as some of the senior team within Trafalgar Entertainment, and it was such a positive response. And to be honest, I don't think we've had any form of negative response from anybody with the work that we're doing sustainably. I've also managed to present all of that information, of course, to the Stafford Gatehouse team who were thrilled, and again, they can use that as um some marketing as well for them. You know, it is a fantastic achievement. As far as we're aware, this is the first pantomime that has been assessed and achieved advanced level within the theatre green book. So it's really a great thing to be shouting about. So after that, I was also asked by the Theatre Green Book to create a case study, which is available on their website, which just tells everybody else what we're doing, as well as presenting it to their board as well, which had people from, for example, the National Theatre, Leeds Playhouse, all of these different fantastic organizations have heard the things that we've been doing and some really great, great questions have come up as a result of that. And there are so many other little things now that we can start to look at, you know, because we're hearing the struggles, if you will, as well as some of the advantages of what other people are using. There's certain materials, for example, that the national are using in their workshops, which sound like a really great sustainable thing to be looking at. So that's something that we want to look at. And to be able to have that cross-venue, cross-departmental conversation and having a larger conversation about it is really, really positive. And hopefully, you know, it continues that conversation. As Sarah said, this is only something that's going to become the forefront of more and more people's ethoses. And that's absolutely something that we want to ensure that we are keeping up to date with all of that and ensuring that we are using the correct materials for the job and moving forward.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Sarah, this is another way that Imagine is leading the way, and other companies hopefully will follow your example. So, where from here? Because there's always room for improvement, isn't there?

SPEAKER_02 25:23

Oh gosh, there's always room for improvement. And you know, the Jazz's fantastic presentations have all finished and started with the same point. Just because we got to advanced status in at Stafford, first of all, doesn't mean it's going to stay there because it takes a lot of work to make that happen. But also, the building needs work, the operations need work, the team, everything needs work. It's the start of our journey. We we are about to just renew our carbon neutral by offsetting year five. We still haven't got, you know, we've still got masses of progress to make there. We've only done one venue of 21 pantos. So all of this is the start of our journey. But we really strongly believe that by shouting about it and saying, we're doing this work, what are you doing? Let's talk to each other and let's together we're stronger on this. If we all share our knowledge is kind of where we're coming with this, and also raising the forefront of it. If glittery, sparkly panto can achieve an advanced status in the theatre green book, then you know, absolutely it's possible anywhere and everywhere. So lots and lots and lots of work for us to do, just the tip of the iceberg, just the start of the journey, but one that um we're super excited about and one that we're really thrilled that so many organizations are reaching out to us and talking to us about, because that's only got to be positive.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Well, at the end of the report, Jazz, you do say uh our responsibility now is to keep um improving year on year, uh, to measure more accurately and so on. It's worth reading this for anybody who would like to see it. This is the production environmental impact report from Sleeping Beauty at the Stafford Gatehouse Theatre. Where can they get hold of a copy, Jazz?

SPEAKER_03 27:03

They can get hold of a copy of that. I think it's on our website as well as within the Theatre Green Books case study section on their website as well.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Listen, thank you so much. It's really interesting to uh find out more about this, and we'll return to this, Sarah, I'm sure, in the future as as things roll out to other venues and you continue to make improvements. But for the time being, Sarah and Jazz, thank you so much for talking to us.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Thanks, Martin, and thanks for taking the time to be here too. We really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

And that's it for now. If you want more information or you want to read the report in full, go to imaginetheatre.co.uk and you'll find details in the news and press section, or you can go to theatregreenbook.com. In the meantime, don't forget to subscribe through your favourite podcast app and spread the word to anybody you know who loves pantomime. Next time I'll be back at Trafalgar House again to catch up with Sarah as we continue our series looking at a year in the life of a producer. That's all coming up in the next episode of the Just Imagine Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Thank you for listening to the latest edition of Just Imagine, the podcast series from Imagine Theatre.imagine Theatre.co dot uk.