Episode 134 - Richard Cadell

Episode 134 – Richard Cadell: Magic, Sooty and the Magic of Pantomime

In Episode 134 of the Just Imagine podcast, host Martin Ballard is joined by one of British entertainment's most recognisable performers – illusionist, puppeteer, actor, writer and the man behind the nation's favourite bear, Richard Cadell.

From being crowned Young Magician of the Year and building spectacular stage illusions, to becoming the custodian of Sooty and directing some of the UK's biggest pantomimes, Richard shares the remarkable journey that has shaped his career over the past four decades.

Together, Martin and Richard explore the unique relationship between magic and pantomime, the art of bringing a silent puppet to life on stage, why slapstick remains such an important part of family entertainment, and how Sooty has continued to evolve for new generations of audiences.

Richard also reflects on directing and performing in pantomime, his favourite panto titles, the realities of producing theatre, and why creating unforgettable memories for young audiences remains the greatest privilege of all.

Packed with entertaining stories, behind-the-scenes insights and a genuine love of live theatre, this is a fascinating conversation with one of the industry's most versatile performers.

Subscribe now and join us for another celebration of the people who make pantomime so magical.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Just Imagine, a podcast series by Imagine Theatre.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Yes, hello again, and welcome to episode 134 of the Just Imagine Podcast series. And this time we're going to chat to an illusionist, pumpeteer, actor, and screenwriter who's best known as Sooty's right handman.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

For more information, go to their website at www.imagineheatre.co.uk.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Now in the last episode, I was joined by Imagine's joint CEO, Sarah Bowden, for the second in our series looking at a year in the life of a producer. Don't worry if you missed it or any of the other previous episodes, because they are all still available. So check them out where you normally get your podcasts, and while you're at it, subscribe to the series so that you don't miss any future episodes. Well, once again, this time I'm delighted to say that I've been joined by the illusionist, puppeteer, actor, and screenwriter who's been working with the much loved puppet Sooty since 1998. So Izzy Wizzy, let's get busy with Richard Cadell. How are you? Martin, thanks for having me on. I'm fantastic, thanks. Really good. I'm very excited to talk to you. Yes, in fact, we were reminiscing a moment ago, weren't we, before we started this recording, because it's something like 40 years since we first worked together.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Yes, in fact we haven't spoken for 40 years. Not that there's been any bad blood or anything, but no, it was uh yeah, we were both, well, virtually kids, weren't we? Really? I mean, uh I was a teenager, we were both at um Radio Leicester, weren't we? Making tea and coffee in a bid to which is how you sort of got your foot in the door. You made tea and coffee, you fetched guests in and out of the studio, and eventually there's somebody gave you a little break on the air, and and I think we both we both did that.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

We certainly did, and you were still at school. I'd just left university, but even then I always remember your first love was magic, because of course you were young magician of the year.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

I was. The magic circle's young magician of the year, I was fifteen, which is how I came to be part of Radio Leicester because um I was interviewed when I won that competition, and I kind of just hung around in the studio and never went home, and that's how that all happened. But yeah, you're absolutely right. I'd always been uh loving magic ever since I was a little kid, you know, five or six years old. I was doing magic and puppet shows. I mean it's all I've ever really known, and you know, it's it's it's stayed with me all through my life.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

And where did all that come from? Because as far as I remember, at least one of your parents was a doctor, so there was no showbiz in the family, was there?

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Well, my mum was an actress. Um, I mean, you know, not not uh and she was quite snobby actually. She used to say, Oh, you know, the equity should never have emerged with the VAF, which was the variety artist, because I was effectively a variety artist, I was a bit of a t a turn, you know. Um, I'll tell you what happened. I had a magician to my party. Uh it's a lovely story, actually, a quick one. I was about four years old, and we had Uncle Brian, who used to go uh and entertain most of the kids in Leicester with his magic show, and um yeah, that's was it. I knew I wanted to be doing the show and not being the little kid helping. And the lovely story is I quoted uh this on a few occasions and subsequently became a huge friend of Uncle Brian and became the best man at his wedding many years later. So that was lovely, but yeah, it was having a magician to the party, then I got a magic set, and uh away I went, you know, that was it.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

So it was a lot of time spent on your own, learning the tricks and so on, because it takes a hell of a lot of work, you know, to get to any sort of standard, left alone to win Young Magician of the Year.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

Well, I'll tell you what happened actually. I said my mother was um an actress, I was a child actor through her encouragement in a play, and one of the guys in the play playing my father, the next play he was due to be in, he was going to play the magician in the play, and he was having lessons from the member of a magic circle, and I found this incredible that that somebody from the magic circle would teach magic. And I was having piano lessons as a kid, and I hated it. And I said to my mum, can I part X these piano lessons for magic lessons? So the actor gave um my mother the name of the magician Brian Glover, his name was, who was teaching this actor, and I became um yeah, one of his pupils. So I I learned in the in the way of kids, you know, I had after school lessons. I had after school lessons in magic, so uh yeah, it was incredible. I loved it, couldn't wait for Fridays when Brian would come around and teach. It was like, I'm gonna learn a new trick this week. It was brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

So, as a kid, while you were performing and learning magic tricks and so on, do you remember going to see Panto? In fact, do you remember the first Panto you ever went to see?

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Hundred percent, hundred percent, and I had much that same feeling. I was at the it was the Little Theatre, and my mother took me and led the little theatre in Leicester, and uh I was picked to go on the song sheet as one of the six kids, and we sang Gilly Gilly Osinfeffer, whatever it is, you know, the one. And at the end of it, I was given a packet of jelly tots, and I refused to open these tots and eat them. And I wanted Simple Simon to come to my birthday party. Uh I fell in love with the whole thing. Um, yeah, and even then you kind of know I want to be part of that world, and remember it vividly. As I talk to you now, I can picture the scenery, the set, what he was wearing, and yeah, and it it's it's wonderful, you know. I I obviously, you know, we're gonna talk about Panto, and I've done many, many since. And I present the song sheet, or most of the panto's I do, and the last thing I ever say when I give the kid the equivalent of the jelly tots is I say, You're gonna talk about this and remember this moment for the rest of your life, and and and you do, and um, children who do those song sheets they do, yeah, and I did. So, um, yeah, anyway, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Did you ever perform in a panto as a kid? Were you ever in a junior ensemble or you know, one of the babes? No, no, I was very lucky.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

First panto I was in, I played Idle Jack because I was doing my kids' parties with the magic show, and the producer saw me at one of these kids' parties and thought, oh, you'd be good. Yeah, I was only 15 and learnt so much, you know. I learned so much. So yeah, I went straight in. I was very lucky, really. I was never a babe. Um sadly they don't have babes so much anymore, which is such a shame.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

No, I went straight in with the comic role. One thing's for sure is the impact that Panto has on kids. It may actually inspire them to perform and to go into theatre as a career, but it will almost certainly inspire them to go and see more things at the theatre. So the impact it has is incredible, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Oh, absolutely. I mean i yeah, I mean I I I mean I don't know how many I've done now, I've lost count. Well, over 30, probably 40 pantos. Uh absolutely, and and and I mean I want to give you an example because uh I'm very lucky to to perform in some wonderful pantomimes. I played buttons not long ago at the Theatre Royal in Nottingham, Craig Gravel Hallwood, I think was the the back. Anyway, it was a it was a big show. And the end of the Act One, you fly over the audience in the coach and ponies, an incredible prop, twins effects prop. And uh I looked down as I'm sat on this coach, and there's three little girls uh dressed up as princesses, and they're looking up at Cinderella who's waving at them, and I'm waving at them as we fly over the audience, and they're crying, they're crying with happiness. You can see the tears, and it started to make me cry. And I thought, these kids are gonna, you know, in their world now, we've Cinderella, you know, they it it's they're gonna take this memory and it's gonna stay with them, they're crying with happiness. We're having that much of an effect on people, and anyone who's in the panto business, they know what I'm saying. I mean, lots of people listening to this will know this. We are so privileged to give these children escapism and and uh and you know, uh ignite their imaginations and take them to this happy world. It's it's such an honour, such a privilege, and and I I've I've never tired of it, clearly.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

But that moment will stay with me. So by this stage, you were forging out uh several different careers. You were doing some radio, um, of course, you were doing panto, and this is the age of 15 or 16, but again, your real love is still magic, isn't it? So, and and in a way, I guess it's magic that led you to sooty. But how did your career progress from that 15-16-year-old onwards?

SPEAKER_02 8:14

I wanted to do, you know, I was I became a full-time professional entertainer. Panto is obviously only Christmas, and I I wanted to do a summer season, so um I developed the Magic Act, and I'd always been a big fan of David Copperfield and those big American illusionists. And um I tried a few summer seasons and I was doing very standard kind of magic tricks that I think a lot of people have seen before. And a friend of mine said, if you're going to stand out, if you're gonna make it, you need to do something really big. And that's when I thought, okay, I'm gonna build the a vanishing motorcycle illusion. And uh it was the biggest at the time, and I'm going about 30-something years, no one had ever done anything on that scale in in the UK. And once I introduced this big trick, this motorcycle flew into a cage, it was hoisted in the air, and the cage exploded effectively, and the bike vanished with me on it, and then I rode in from the back of the theatre a few seconds later. I mean, it it was a groundbreaking moment in in magic in this country, very standard in the US. You know, all the big American illusions have done stuff far better already. But in this country it was a big deal, and um it just took off. That trick made me. I was I did great summer seasons, and of course, from that I thought, well, I'm gonna need a few more tricks now, and then I built some more big illusions and and I sort of went down the illusion path, you know, big spectacular stuff. And without making you know, jumping all over the place timeline-wise, when I became the presenter of the Sooty show, I stopped doing the big illusions. Uh, I didn't need the big illusion act, I quite focused on Sutti. But what's wonderful about still doing the pantomimes is that it enables me to bring some of those wonderful props out of storage, and for two or three weeks or four weeks, whatever it is at Christmas, I get to do my illusions again. You know, as part of the panto, we sort of throw them in, shoehorn them in subtly. So I still get to play with the big stuff as well as doing the sooty show.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Yeah, I love that, and I think there probably could or should be more illusions in Panto in general because they really add something spectacular, something that is a surprise for the audience. And magic's been an important part of your life, of course. You're a gold star member of the Inner Magic Circle, past president of the British section of the International Brotherhood of Magicians, and as you said, it was magic that led you to Soti because you may have watched Soti as a kid on television, uh, but long before you took over working with Sutti on a regular basis, I think it was Christmas back in 1985 that you first appeared on the Sooty show. It was called Sooty and Co. at the time, and uh that was your first experience of working with him, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Yeah, well I mean I'd been on the Sooty show, as you rightly say, it's on YouTube, embarrassingly so. It's a Christmas special, I'm about 16, 17, and I come in and uh addressed as Father Christmas, the youngest Father Christmas ever, and uh and and that reveal myself to be Richard the Magician and do a card trick. But I'd love the Sooty show because Sooty did a lot of magic, and as a kid, you know, I love magic, and if you wanted to watch magic on kids' TV, well, you know, the Sooty Show was a good place to go. So I was totally starstruck meeting Matthew Corbett and all the people behind the scenes when I did that little guest spot, and uh it was bizarre really. I I was doing a big summer season in Blackpool uh Grand Theatre with a big variety show, and I was doing all the big illusions, you know. By that point I was doing a water tank thing and and and some big levitation thing and a motorcycle, of course. So all these huge, big, big props. And my agent at the time called me up and he said, So I'm I'm fast forwarding now, I'm jumping. That's so I'm now 20 years ahead of that TV show I did with Sooty. And he said, Do you remember you did the Sootti show 20 years ago? I said, Yes. He said, Well, are you sitting down? I went, Well, what do you want? He said, Well, Matthew Corbett's retiring. They want a magician to take over. They remembered you. You are in the frame. It was such a curveball. I was trying to be the UK's answer to David Copperfield, and you know, I thought, me working with the Teddy Bear doing kids stuff, go around doing kids' parties for years, you know. What but they didn't want a a children's presenter, they they wanted somebody that you know, they didn't want that that stereotypical kids presenter. So um when I got the job, that was when I said, right, I don't have to do the illusions anymore, I don't have to drive through the night with a lorry load of props and pay six girl assistants and two boys, and you know, and you know, I can just turn up with a little tiny box and and uh and and and go just as well with sootti. So um it was it was it was a life-changing moment and um and one that I still pinch myself really that I ever got into the position to do it. And and I know we touched on the presenting stuff um that we both did together at Radio Leicester, but absolutely when I got the Sootti show, some of those skill sets from the radio show, people don't realise this. I hope you find this interesting, but we both know as radio presenters that you often have to talk to time and fill air seamlessly, or with the Sooty Show, so much of the stuff is tracked and cued, like Sweep and Sue, especially the live stuff. You have to sort of tie sort of seamlessly fill the air and f make it flow, and and the techniques I learned as a kid in that radio studio alongside you. There was um I I that absolutely drew on all of that for the Sooty show. It was um great, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

Now here's a question which you may not know the answer to because we've talked about your panto career and the 30 or 40 that you've done over the years. Do you have any idea how many Sootti has done?

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Do you know what actually no? Because Matthew Corbett and Harry they did the Christmas show. They did the Sootti Christmas show, yeah, they didn't um share it. Matthew Corbett sort of licensed Sooty out a few times during his tenure, but actually Sooty has only really come into Panto rec since I got involved, because of course I was playing comic roles in Panto, and and um as soon as I got involved with the Sootti show, the people I were working for um said, Well, let's you know let's have Richard and Sooty, and it's been great. Um, so I would say, I mean, I must have done 10 or 15 with Sooty, I'm guessing. Um, probably Matthew did 10 before that, potentially. Um, so maybe only 20, 25. But uh, he's absolutely brilliant in pantomime, Sooty and Sweep. It's just such a great fit for that genre, because everybody knows it. Little kids still watch it, and of course the grandparents know it, and you know, it's such a great and of course with Izzy Wizzy gets get busy, the magic wand, we can use magic throughout the story to you know right wrongs and fix the baddie in the end, and so it sooty plays a you know a really good role within the storyline, so it does really work.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

And all the way through Sootti's career with Harry in the 1950s, onto Matthew, and then with yourself, there have always been panto elements in the Soti show, and of course the the Christmas specials as well, where there was probably even more uh of a panto influence, and that's probably one of the reasons why Sooti and Panto work so well together, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Yeah, I mean the Soti stage show is like a panto, it's very slapstick, you know. This TV show is littered lapstick slapstick. I'd love to see more slapstick in Panto. I'd love to see more people. A lot of Panto producers, they're very frightened about it, you know. I'm lucky enough I work for Crossroads um, you know, the the most years every year for the last how how how long, and of course they're they're you know one of the formidable producer. Um, but it's very hard to to to try and convince them to to do slosh because they're you know that they get Clive and Danny doing it up in Newcastle, and they uh Clive and Danny Adams are fantastic slosh, the best in the business, but they don't have to make a mess. I mean, I mean it's if you're gonna do it, you've my my thing is if you're gonna do a slosh, you've got to do it. You can't have a little tickle on the nose with a bit of shaving foam, you've got to paste, you've got to throw the paste around. Um so Clive and Danny do it, um, and they make such a mess that whenever I suggest please can we do a slosh, he goes, Oh no, it's such a such oh it's just such such a nightmare for them. But I think we should see it. I I love it when I see a panto with a good slosh scene because it I know all the effort that goes into it backstage and then the cleanups and the costume changes, and you know, but it's great, it's great. I I wish I could do a bit more of that.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Now, long before you bought the rights for Sootti, I think your first real regular presentation role was in the final series of Sooty and Co. Now, like Panto, uh Sooti has had to evolve over the decades from the 50s onwards. So I wonder how you did that. How did you manage to bring Sooti up to date and continue that evolution?

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Well, Matthew Corbett was a genius in keeping it relevant, that's why it was on TV for so long. I mean, this is such a long conversation, really. I'm gonna try and give you the bullet points. I mean, I was when I first took over, I was just working for ITV as their presenter, I had no writing input, I had no uh control, creative control at all. And then in 2008, uh the rights came for sale, and I purchased the rights along with my brother, which was a big commitment for us. And the challenge, because ITV was sort of said, Well, what are you gonna do with it? You know, how can you keep it modern and fresh? And um that was indeed the challenge to keep it moving. So, what we did was take Sooty out of the house a lot more. I mean, Matthew's day, it was very much set in the house. They used to used to go out, you know, now and again they'd pop down the shops or they'd go somewhere, but most of it was studio based. Now, when I took over, for me, Sooty and Sweet work great in the real world, you know, when they're in real, you know, uh situations in real shops and real, you know. So actually, we'd spent very little time in our house and all the time out in the real world at farms and theme parks and you know, schools, and and the stories were centred around that. So that's what I did, and it seemed to work. I mean, it's been on ITV for well, I've done it for 20 odd years, it's still on, it's they still show the episodes on ITVX, you can watch them watch them right now. Yeah, so I I I put it in the real world, I think. But uh the trick is to keep it moving, and lots of jokes, lots of slapstick. I always said the Sooty Show is never there to educate people. A lot of kids' shows these days, they they they tend to try and give a moral message or uh teach something. Well, I said, no, let's just make the kids laugh. They've been to school, you know, they've they've done that bit for the day. Let's let's you know, let's have some raspberries and throw a few pies and uh you know let's uh make fun of the adults and that's what we do.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Yeah, light entertainment for kids and the characters. I think you you kept them all. I remember you know, obviously Suty Sweep and Sue. Uh Sue originally voiced by Harry's wife, I think. Scampi, I think, was Soti's cousin.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

Sooty's cousin. I don't use Scampy so much. I bring him in and out, I keep him for special occasions, Scampi.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Butch, I remember, but but the one I don't know where the name came from, but the one I I always titter when I hear it is the snake called Ramsbottom. I'm now the voice of Ramsbottom.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

Well, that's we're giving it all away, aren't I? But yes, I use I use Ramsbottom, the northern snake. They had yeah, loads of they had a robot called Henry, Butch the Bulldog, I love Butch, three nice mice, they've had a few. Kipper the cat. But I mean, there's been lots of people come and go over the years. I mean, you know, but uh Sooty Sweep and Sir have been the three that just uh the full timers. The most bizarre thing when I first got hold of the rights writing a script, because you've got your three main characters, one of them doesn't have any lines at all, and one of them just squeaks. You know, how do you write that script? Um, but it yeah, it was crazy.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Now we mentioned the fact that panto elements had an influence on the Sooty show, but I wonder whether your experience of Panto helped you when it came to writing the scripts.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Oh yes, 100%. I mean that there are panto routines within the episodes, a hundred percent, you know. Um, yeah, and and uh defin definitely, I mean, definitely, and and also you're aware of an audience watching at home. And I do a lot of breaking the fourth wall where I I look down the barrel of the let you know the kid the camera. Um, in which you'd perform to an audience of kids watching in the theatre. I'm mindful that there's a kids watching at home, so I sort of play that card. Yeah, lots of slapsticks, so definitely, definitely similarities.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Now, one thing I did want to ask you is when it comes to pantomime performance, everybody talks about it has to be exaggerated, it has to be larger than life, it has to be big. And I wonder how you marry that when working with a small puppet that doesn't speak. Do you have to overcompensate? You know, what can you do to make sure that Sooty actually works with an audience in that sort of situation?

SPEAKER_02 20:43

No, no, not at all. Um if anything, if anything, it's it's an art form. It's a bit like magic. The trouble is because Sooti I mean that there's this I've I've got lots of sort of stock answers for this because people often say, well, you know, he's so small in a big theatre, how does it play? Well he's bigger than an actor's face, and you never sit at the back of the theatre and and and question that you can't see the expression or the emotion on an actor's face. So uh Sooty's movements are are really very easy to see. The trick actually is when I'm on stage with Soti in Pantomime, I stay relatively still and I look at him as I'm talking to him, and anything he's doing, I look, so the focus is very much on him because my movements as a human are very I've only got to jump up and down, and that's far bigger than ever he can do. So that's why Sooti's yellow is very bright. So when I do the Soti stage show, he's the brightest thing on the stage. Uh the st the the scenery is quite muted. But uh yeah, the the trick is to actually sort of dumb down a bit when when Sooty's on and let him be the life and soul, and then when he drops below the counter and your lead comic, then you go crazy and bang, you're right into the audience. You can go as big as you like, then but you have to sort of downplay it a bit when Sooty's on and allow him to uh to to do it. But it it works in absolute it storms, it storms in Panto, particularly when he brings a water pistol out and soaks the audience, you know, it's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Over the 30 or 40 years that you've done Panto, you've worked with some of the biggest names in show business. But I have to say, sometimes Soti is billed higher than then.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

Well, do you know what's great? Every time the Panto bills are announced, even now, I'm doing Milton Keynes this year with Alexandra Burke. It's going to be great. Directing it as well, which is going to be an absolute honour to direct her and put that together. But you go on the socials, and this happens every year. They all go, Oh, when they announced the cast. Oh, Sooty and Sweep, Sooty and Sweep, Soti and Sweep, Sudy and Sweep. Happens every year. They never mention me, they never knit the top. We have Will Young I was with Will Young last year saying soti and sweep, study and sweep. There's such an outpouring of love for them. So yeah. And and when he first comes on, they go crazy. The audience go crazy.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

And you've added so many more strings to your bow over the years. We've talked about the writing, you're an executive producer, consultant on other projects as well, and directing. I wonder how directing a panto works for you because you may have illusions in there, you're working with Sootti, you're playing the comic, and you're directing. Is that a bit tricky at times?

SPEAKER_02 23:04

Yes, I think that it is tricky to direct and be in it. It's a real fine balance because you know I want a happy company. Uh I want a really happy company that all gets on off stage. It's really important that you forge that in the rehearsal room because it does spill over the footlights, you can tell. So therefore, I have to be in charge, but you have to get that fine line of being able to uh you know sort of give direction and and and be strong without upsetting people because you've got to work with them. Um so it it can be tricky if if you to but but I've I've done it enough now. I think I sort of uh uh I get it. But it what's wonderful, of course, is to is to know that you're crafting a show that you're gonna be in. Yeah. So uh I like nice quick fast shows. I love transitions, I love to I love the way we can flow from one scene to another, and we we you know we can with the right choreography, we can we can get the dancers to sort of move through the scenery as it changes, and you know that I love that creation of that. So to be able to sort of cook the cake and know that I'm gonna be in i eating a bit of it, if you will, is is a r is a real buzz. Whereas I think if I was just directing and leaving it and walking away from it, I I think I wouldn't have quite the same satisfaction.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

And in a practical sense, do you have a second pair of eyes? Because it can be really difficult when you're in a show, particularly in the tech and the dress rehearsal, or when it comes to giving notes and so on. You need an extra pair of eyes out front to see what's happening, don't you? So do you have a choreographer or an assistant or somebody works with you in that respect?

SPEAKER_02 24:36

I do. Um three years in a row now, a fantastic choreographer called Aaron Renfrey, who has done many amazing things, and rightly so, he's he's brilliant, but he he's he's you know, he's done so much. But he I trust him completely to be that that set of eyes at the last minute. I video everything. I I'll video it all and I'll go back after the rehearsals are finished and and I'll look at everything and give notes. I give notes to myself. In fact, I've learned so much from watching myself on those videos. Think, oh Richard, why are you doing that there? Why don't you move to the left? Why are you talking there? Why do you stop and pause? So you it's really quite you know, it's been helpful for me to see it. So I do a lot of video, um, but yeah, I do rely very much on Aaron. You know, he's he's he's great, you know. You need you need a strong choreographer and somebody you can trust, and we've been a good little team.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

And again, you've played so many different comic characters over the years, and some are slightly different. I guess there's more pathos with buttons, for instance. But does your relationship on stage uh differ depending on which comic you're playing? No, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

Do you want me to be honest? No, because I do the same stuff every year. A lot of the well, they love what I do, you see. So when I get the script comes through with oh, it's that routine, oh that one again, oh that trick again, because they love their favourite bits and that they write them in. And I suppose you go to a new town, they haven't seen them, and what why not do the the best bits, you know, so they they sort of cherry-pick the bits they like. But uh, I suppose it does if it's sooty sometimes have has more of a story role, depending on the subject. So so that can be nice, and it's nice when Soti interacts with the other cast as well, you know. Um, and that happens, you know, he's got free reign. It's not just you know, I'm I've I've great mates with some fantastic ventriloquists who who who who are brilliant now in Panto, some great names out there, but obviously, you know, their dummies are only ever on with them and interacting with them. Great thing with Sooty and Sweet, I don't have to be there, but they they're they're cast on the show as parts in their own right. So if you know Carabos is plotting an evil spell, Sooty can absolutely pop up next to her and squirt with the water pistol and be, you know, be part of the sort of the moment. I don't have to be there. So so um it does work very well with or without me.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Very often we talk about the fact that Panto is one of the few areas that brings all different aspects of the profession together, whether that be speciality acts like jugglers or acrobats alongside singers and actors. And I think that's a joy still, isn't it? Well it's a variety show.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

I mean let's not forget the the the origins of it. It was a variety show, and you look at those incredible bills, you know, of of yesteryear, the palladium bills. I mean, you've got a singer, you've got a special, you've got a comic, you got and they're all big stars, but it's a variety show, and and and um you're absolutely right. It it's something for everybody. Uh and and and yes, it's it's wonderful to bring in everybody's skill set and try and weave a story around it. That's the clever thing. I I'm you know, that there have been occasions, let's be honest, where Panto producers will will the story can play a second a second place within the you know, they they're worried about delivering the pop star's song or the comedian's root routine and the s the story can be slightly not forgotten, but almost not be seemed as important. One of the nice things that that Crossroads let me do is when I when I direct is I I fight for the to really tell the story because kids don't know who some of these people are, you know. So as much as it's a variety show and everybody gets to do their spot, I do try and weave a a story through it so the children go away with the sense of you know knowing what the story was about.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Yeah, that's the most important thing, isn't it? With a younger audience, they have to be engaged with the story, they have to go on that adventure with you. And with that in mind, one question I ask everybody on this podcast is Richard, what's your favourite panto title? Ugh. Well, uh can I sort of say two?

SPEAKER_02 28:33

I mean, well, only for me as personally, and I know any comic that you talk to is gonna say buttons, you know. Cinderella for me is is is the best panto because there's a good story, there's more moral to the story, and for me as buttons, I love the pathos bit, you know. I the audience love you even more because you don't get the go, and and and and you know, there's all of that the wonderful ticket tearing scene, and um, and you know, the the you've got double whammy with the uglies, uh you know, it's got two baddies in there, and and so that so it's the best story, but you know, I as a s when I went to see Panto years ago, I saw John Inman in Mother Goose, and Mother Goose is a is a belting story, and that's I so I really I mean it's not often done anymore because it all hinges on the on on Mother Goose, so it's getting the right person to play that, but you know, oh it was it was great, it was really good.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

I think you're absolutely right, and one of the things we talk about on this podcast series on a regular basis is that the most popular Panto titles seem to be ones that have been made into Disney movies. I've done Mother Goose twice and it has everything. It's nice for a change that the dame is the protagonist. Um it has a moral, as you say, it has uh a story that the kids probably don't know as well because it's never been a Disney uh movie. But it's a real shame that because it's not as well known as some of the other titles by the kids, maybe the tickets don't sell as well, and it's a big risk for producers to take, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 30:08

Let's not forget, you know, it is a business, um, show business, it's a business, and these panto producers. And I actually did produce Panto for a while. I did it quite successfully with a uh very esteemed name of a producer called Barry Stead, who worked for many years on some of the biggest Pantomirs. I was lucky to partner with him for a few years, and it's tough, it's really tough producing pantos, a very expensive, you know. This myth that panto producers make millions. Let me tell you, it don't it is it's a myth. There's a little bit of something left if you're lucky at the end of it. You've got to cut your cloth very carefully because you want it to be the best, and it just everything costs so much, and the theatres are very reliant on on their cut because that often keeps their theatre going for the whole year, so that they want everybody, you know, has to get a slice of it. You know, for us, Peter Pan is was a very strong selling title. We had we were lucky enough to have Brian Blessed worked as a Captain Hook. Brian Blessed is Captain Hook and Peter Pan was that was our best seller. Snow White was strong, followed by Cinderella. And those were our go-to three. We didn't, you know, the Aladdins and Dick Whittington's and all of that, we didn't really bother with them because it it it it that they were the they didn't sell as many tickets. So there you go. You have to unfortunately if you're running a business, you have to give people what they want, you know.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Okay, well let's finish this episode with one pretty straightforward question, Richard. What is it you love most about Panto?

SPEAKER_02 31:32

Oh god. Oh, such a dedicative thing. I I suppose it's a bit tricky because there's so many things, there's selfish things I love because I love being in it. I think I've got the best gig of the whole thing, you know. I mean, to be able to walk out and be that person centre of the story of the audience of watching, I get to do it every and watch it and be pipe every night. But I think for me, it comes back to what we said earlier. You're giving those children the audience of tomorrow, the performers of tomorrow, the theatre girls of tomorrow, you're giving this incredible slice of magic at a very magical time of the year, so all their emotions are heightened. Um, and you give them something that money can't buy, they go away with that with that wonderment, and and to be able to be part of that process for me, as I said, you know, it it's a privilege. And everyone involved in the panto business, I'm sure, is aware of that. We're just so lucky to we're lucky it exists, and I've got so many friends from abroad, I haven't got a clue what panto is. You try and explain it, and in the end, you give up, you think, you know what, I'm not gonna try. We're so lucky to have it, you know. You haven't got it, but we've got it, and we love it, and it's a beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Well, listen, we wish you all the very best for the forthcoming pantomime season this year in Milton Keynes. Richard, thank you so much for talking to us. An absolute pleasure. And once again, we've run out of time, I'm afraid. Thank you so much for supporting this podcast series. Don't forget there are many more fabulous guests still to come, so make sure you subscribe now. And join me, Martin Ballard, for episode 135, when I'll be talking to Joe Pasquale and Liam Dolan to discuss the stock pantomime character of the comic.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Thank you for listening to the latest edition of Just Imagine, the podcast series from Imagine Theatre. And you can find out more by going to www.imagine theatre.co.uk