Episode 135 - 'The Comic' featuring Joe Pasquale & Liam Dolan

Episode 135 – The Comic: The Heart of Pantomime with Joe Pasquale & Liam Dolan

What makes a great pantomime comic?

In Episode 135 of the Just Imagine podcast, host Martin Ballard is joined by two of the UK's most experienced pantomime performers – Joe Pasquale and Liam Dolan – to explore one of pantomime's most beloved stock characters: the Comic.

From the origins of the role with Joseph Grimaldi to the slapstick traditions that still delight audiences today, Joe and Liam share their own experiences of creating mayhem on stage while keeping every performance firmly under control.

The conversation covers the art of audience interaction, the importance of timing, improvisation and tradition, building unforgettable on-stage partnerships, and why the comic remains the beating heart of every great pantomime.

Joe also reflects on working alongside legends including Rod Hull, Ken Dodd and Bob Monkhouse, while Liam discusses the influence of the legendary Krankies and the unique skills required to entertain audiences of all ages.

Packed with hilarious stories, fascinating insights and decades of theatrical experience, this episode is an entertaining celebration of the performers who bring laughter, chaos and magic to pantomime every Christmas.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Just Imagine, a podcast series by Imagine Theatre.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

Yes, hello again, and welcome to episode 135 of Imagine Theatre's podcast series, and this time it's the latest in our occasional series looking at the stock pantomime characters and the turn of the comic.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

For more information, go to their website at www.imaginetheatre.co.uk.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

Now in the last episode, I was joined by the multi-talented singer, actor, magician, and sooty's right-hand man Richard Cadell. If you missed it, you can still check it out along with all of the other previous episodes, and don't forget to subscribe to the series so that you don't miss out in the future. So again, in this episode, for the latest in our occasional series looking at the stock pantomime characters, we're concentrating on the comic. And joining me are two seasoned comics with decades of experience north and south of the border, resident comic at the Pavilion Theatre in Glasgow, Liam Dolan. Hello. And the man who's played most of the biggest pantos across the country, Joe Pasquale. Really good, thank you. I'm gonna start with you, Liam. First of all, I'm not really quite sure how much you both know about the history of the pantomime comic, going back to Comedy Delarte and also one man in particular, Liam Joseph Grimaldi.

SPEAKER_03 1:22

Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things where I've had a little look on like I mean, you just become you go down a rabbit hole with it. But you know, going back to the old school variety and dated way back in in the times when the comic would come on and just everybody would relax and everybody would be in a safe pair of hands. And I think people like Joseph Grimaldi are just like paved the way for everybody, like like we all continue to do.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Yeah, Joe, did you know that um I mean obviously today the comic is often referred to as the Joey? Did you know much about Grimaldi?

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Yeah, I did. I there's also that story. I don't know if uh if it's true or not, whether it's him or whether there was uh uh another clown in those days that uh a bloke went to the doctor because he was so depressed. You must know the story. I can't remember if it was Joe Grimaldi. There was another two clowns, uh, and he just went to the doctor. So I'm so depressed, what can you do for me? He said, Uh you if you want to come be happy, go and see the funniest man in town, go see the clown Joe Grimaldi. And he went, Yeah, but doctor, I am Grimaldi. That's the old story that goes about. That is a true story. Um but yeah, I was aware of that, you know, and Joey Joey and the top banana and all that sort of stuff. Um, all this stuff that is passed down over the years, and all these little phrases uh about uh breaking a leg, you know, there's so many uh phrases where that comes from. Um and why while you muscle whistle in a theatre, all these little things that you pick up over the years, you think, why shouldn't you whistle in a theatre? And that came from the days in the uh in the um 19th century when a lot of sailors were put into port and they didn't have any work when they weren't out at sea, so they'd get uh local jobs at the theatre. And what would happen is uh if you whistled um in on a ship, uh it meant that they was going to bring the sail in, and so you had to duck. So if they used to whistle, they didn't have comms in the theatre in those days, they'd whistle or bring a cloth in. If you didn't uh didn't know it was coming, then you'd you'd they'd just bring it down and beat you on the edge, which is why you mustn't whistle because people think they bring the cloth in. Well, it's all that sort of stuff that uh that comes from those early days of panto in theatre.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Yeah, and Liam, the other thing about Grimaldi was that he was the first really to wear outrageous makeup and costumes, really loud and colourful. He uh invented quite a few catchphrases. Um he used to say things like, Here we go again, and and shall I? You'd even he'd ask the audience, shall I? Which is still something that we do with panto audiences today, and the knockabout or slapstick humour. In fact, he was the one who had the slapstick, Liam. So, really, he's the father of Panto in many ways, isn't he?

SPEAKER_03 3:49

Well, absolutely, and as Joe said, somebody who's kind of paved the way for everybody. And the thing is, you you you pass on these things that you've learnt through the years of doing panto and working in the theater, like Joe was saying about the whistling and um all these things, but you never know. I can I couldn't tell you who told me those things, it's just something that you pick up and you learn, and you kind of and then you pass on because even working on the last season um in the pavilion in Glasgow, and as younger dancers, and they're whistling about it, and you say, Well, don't whistle, and they tell you, Oh, why do you and you tell them the reason, but they don't you don't know where it came from. But people that they kind of paved the way and and people like that, kind of with the outrageous costumes and the slapstick and things like that, are the are the pioneers, and the reason we're still lucky enough to do panto today, I think.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Yeah, you're absolutely right, and you you were right at the beginning when you said with any of this, you can go down a rabbit hole because it leads you in so many different directions, and there's no doubt that Grimaldi also influenced people like Charlie Chaplin, Buster Keaton, and you know, even later on, people like Norman Wisdom with that knockabout humour. So, Joe, in terms of panto comics, whether it's influenced your own act or whether it's just influenced you as a panto comic, who did you look up to as a kid?

SPEAKER_01 5:02

As a kid, I I had so many idols that I looked up to. Obviously, there was the obvious ones like Tommy Cooper. Dickie Henderson was a big one for me. I loved Dicky Henderson, and I was really lucky because I started in the 80s and I had three mentors which were giants of genius as well. One was Ken Dodd, another one was Des O'Connor, and the other one was Bob Monkause. And all three of those were kings of Panto in that day. So I I grew up watching them, and then I got the chance to work with them and be mentored by them as well. And my first panto was with another giant of Panto who was Rod Hallanimu. And I learned more from Rod in Panto than anyone else. And his take on it was as Panto Comic. And I watched him, I would watch him in the wings. I did two years with him, and I watched him in the wing every night for two years. And it wasn't anything that he said to me, it was it was everything I felt off of him when he was doing it. And his his phrase was, he said, been a panto comic. So I was right at the bottom of the bill, nobody knew what no, it wasn't, you know, my name wasn't even on the poster, some of them. And he said to me, a panto comic, his job is to create mayhem and his auto also to control it. You have to know when to pull it back, you have to create a complete mayhem. And I witnessed him every night. His entrance was the best entrance I ever saw in a panto. And he would come from the back of the stalls. Yeah, a lot of people do that, but because he had emu with him, he'd come down the middle of the aisle and he would grab whatever anybody had, he had ice cream, sweets, it would go everywhere, popcorn, he would throw it everywhere. And because he had this third party, he had the emu, it wasn't him doing it. He could get away with murder. It was amazing to watch him create this mayhem and get rid of everybody's sweets, whatever he had made for sharing, he'd throw it all out, and then he'd right at the front, he would nick someone's coat from the front that was over the uh back of their chair, whatever it was. And so the whole audience could see him pick up this coat. It wasn't him, obviously it was the emu. Pick up the coat and they'd take it on stage and he'd drag it about trying to get the coat off the emu, and eventually the emu would throw it off in the wings. That was it, forgotten about until the next scene. And throughout the whole show, every single person throughout that whole show wore that coat in some scene, right? The set the coat, and it don't ask me why, but the coat used to bring the house down every time it made an entrance. Whoever had it on didn't matter, but it wasn't referenced. No one would go look at my coat, yeah. They would just wear it. Some of the ensemble just wear it doing a dance routine. The fairy would come on as we all come with it, whatever it was, and this coat, and it it made me realize that it's not the material, that it's it's it's more than the material, it's the whole genre of mayhem. But once again, it has to be controlled, it has to be in a bubble, otherwise, the whole show becomes a mess. And this is why it's important. A lot of people don't realize they've seen the comic ad living and mucking about the thing. I can do that, and they can't. If everybody does it, the whole thing goes to goes to a mess, and you can't do that.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

I think that's a perfect example of a running gag as well. And it takes us back really to Commedia Delarte again because uh that was one of the things that uh Grimaldi and others developed, you know, that sort of anarchy on stage. Uh, the servants, by the way, in Commedia Delarte, if you didn't know, were called Zani, Z-A-N-N-I, and that's where the term Zainy comes from today, which is another sort of influence from those early days. Liam, what about you? Who might have influenced you as a comic in Panto?

SPEAKER_03 8:24

Uh it's definitely it's funny actually talking about Rod Hull and Emu because the first time I was ever on stage at the pavilion theatres in Glasgow when I was a kid, I was thrown over Rod Hull's shoulder and attacked by EMU, which is a huge claim to fame. I was absolutely delighted to go on that stage with him. But I think people like Rod Hull are a great example, but mine has got to be uh the cranky. Jeanette Cranky is just for me growing up, I absolutely idolised them and and watched them on the TV all the time and then was lucky enough to see them in different shows. And just watching that masterclass of, as you say, Anarchy and Zany and it all going wrong, but so cleverly, you know, Les Dawson plays the piano badly because he plays it so good, you know, and it's it's things like that. And when you go and see Jeanette, who I'd seen so many times and so many years, she was my example of that's what I want to do because it it looked like she was enjoying it, it looked like she had everybody else enjoying it, and just that that everything was going wrong and it was all falling apart, and it was all so cleverly constructed, which was a masterclass in itself.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

And that was slightly different, of course, in that um she was part of a double act um rather than a uh a standalone comedian. So that that was a different dynamic in a way, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03 9:36

Yeah, absolutely. But what I felt was that we got the we got the experience of both of them because Ian would would lead you into that sense of belief that he was annoyed with Jimmy and he was fed up with Jimmy, and so you you were laughing at how much this naughty schoolboy character, whether it was Jimmy as as the as the schoolboy or whether it was Jeanette as buttoned or any other character, you were still you still bought into that double act and the believability of it all going wrong and it was it was down to the to the strength of both of them, I think.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Now again, this is really interesting that you should mention the crankies and Jimmy Cranky in particular, because what Grimaldi did was very often likened to a a naughty boy in a man's body. He would imprison policemen, he would trip up old women, um, construct mock vehicles from cheeses and odd bits of furniture and so on, and steal trays of tarts and consume gigantic quantities of sausages. So again, there is a link there to the modern day comic. Now, Joe, what about you know, back in the day at the Palladium, for instance, you had the comic playing the leading character instead of having a principal boy, for instance, Norman Wisdom played Aladdin, Robinson Crusoe played by Ken Dodd. Have you ever done that?

SPEAKER_01 10:54

No, I've never done it, except for this year. This is the first year I'm doing that in actual fact. I'm actually doing um uh Baron Art up this year. I've never done a wood play principal comic, and I that was a conscious decision. Um, I have to say one more thing, uh, going back on what Liam said about the crankies, though. I worked with the crankies many, many times, never in Panto, but in Cabaret uh and in theatre. And what was great about as he as he just said was for them as well, their act, their live act, their theatre act and their cabaret act, simply dovetailed into Panto. It was made for Panto. They didn't change anything, they did exactly the same stuff, maybe a little bit stronger gags in in Cabaret, but that nothing changed. They simply just um it was like taking it out of that suit there, put across your money and do that same stuff, and it worked brilliantly with adults and with kids alike, which is something that that uh a comic has to remember, is you have to play to the to every uh age group out there, which going back to uh going back to what I've just said then, it's gonna be hard for me this year to not play. I'm still gonna play principal comic, but I'm not doing it as the principal role of of uh I'm doing it as a principal role. Well, I don't think he is a principal role. I'm 65 years old this year, and I can't iron hard up going, oh well, and the buttons being 60. I'm making the uh the decision this year, I'm writing it this year as well, which is gonna be a real um a difficult transition for me because you don't have that same uh oh what's it the same banter with the audience that you do as a as the buttons character. Uh so button was still gonna have a buttons, but it's not it's gonna be played by a a comic as such. We're having it more as an actor this year, which is gonna be a weird thing. But yeah, I've never done it before, so yeah, it's gonna be interesting. And the other thing that I used to enjoy as well when I was younger was the a principal boy being a girl. I quite like that that dynamic, which obviously they don't do quite so much anymore.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

No, and I think it's part of the evolution, isn't it? It doesn't matter if uh a woman is the dame or the comic is the lead, uh principal character, like Aladdin. Um, as long as the general feeling of Panto and many of the other constituent parts are there, it doesn't really matter, does it? Liam, what about you? What do you think about the comic actually being the lead, playing Jack in Jack and the Beanstalk or playing Aladdin in Aladdin?

SPEAKER_03 13:09

Do you know I did it once in St. Albans? I was uh Jack in Jack and the Beanstalk, and we didn't have a simple Simon or a brother. So they basically created this role for me to be the principal boy, but also to be the comic. So Jack was getting a lot of stuff with uh with the baddie, and there was a lot of things that that maybe he wouldn't normally do if he had a psychic or had a brother. So that was a very interesting because I got to play the lead principal boy and the comic combined, and I really enjoyed it, but I I much prefer when there's a separation. In saying that when I did Tunbridge Wells and I was a lad, and and uh and Tucker, who is a brilliant comic, was was playing wishy-washy, and I was and I just kept watching him and again learning and kind of thinking, I wish I was the principal comic rather than being than being the the lead role, you know.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

Panto is one of those areas, variety is in general, and you're both intimated at it already, Joe, isn't it? That wherever you are, whoever's on the bill, you know, whether it's panto or cabaret, whatever, you watch and learn, don't you?

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Oh my god, this is the art of it, this is the business. I reckon to become an expert anything takes 10,000 hours. And I don't know how many hours I've been on stage in 40 years, but you never stop learning. And you know, the only thing the other thing is as well, I always find you only learn when it doesn't go well. All the time you think it's going well, it's going well, you think oh, this is great, and you get a little bit too big for your boots, and your ego kicks in and you think you're the cat's whiskers. And it's not, it's when things go wrong, that's when you learn most of all, and that's when you learn humility as well, that you that you never ever ever stop learning. And you see someone good, however old they may become straight into business, maybe doing it 40 years. If they're good, they're good, and you watch them, and you can learn from that still.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

Liam, what are the key constituents, if you like, or the characteristics of a good comic or clown?

SPEAKER_03 14:54

I think the I think the key elements are that they have to have, as Joe said, that report with the audience. It's layered like an onion. There's levels of it for the kids and for the adults. I think the I think the thing that I love about it is that on certain comic roles that I've done, you could take my character and me out of the show, and you would still get the story, you would still get the full thing because I'm just there to cause the mayhem and the zaniness and the madcap and you know the the classic panto routines, but the actual through story continues, and I think that's kind of important as well to know what you're there for and know what do and know what the audience expects. You sometimes you can see an audience sit back and think, right, okay, here we go, we're going to sit and enjoy this routine because it's a traditional panto routine, or here's the comic on, and it's it's going to be something different, or it's going to be something funny. But I think the key characteristics are that kind of knowing knowing the levels of the audience and and knowing what you're there for and providing everything that they that they expect from the comic.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Yeah, I guess as well as the you know the the loud costumes, maybe. And Joe, what about that rapport with other characters? Because it's it varies, doesn't it, depending on which panto? Because you may have a bit of pathos with Cinderella if you're playing buttons, you may have a lot of sort of to and fro with an audience in whichever panto, and then of course there's that relationship with the dame as well. So they're all key parts as well, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 16:18

Yeah, I have to go back slightly on something just to follow up on what Liam just said as well. Then I think one of the key constituents and parts of being a principal comic is the ability to adapt to every audience, right? Because I've seen some comics that that they'll go, they'll say to me, Oh, uh, the stuff in the morning, I hate them the morning shows where all these kids, when you've got you know, 10 schools in, you've got 707-year-olds in, I much prefer the evening because uh, you know, you the gags don't work for the kids in the morning, but the material you've got for those audiences, because the the ones you do, you know, if you do the kids in the morning, they'll like a lot of fart willy belly button jokes. Uh, in the evening, they want slightly more complex material, and you have to be able to adapt to do that. And some people in the early days of doing Panto have only got the material that's been written for them, or they don't have the ability to add lib or to slow down, maybe, uh, because their old audience, they're not picking up uh what you're saying. Because that's the other thing is you forget you're doing it 50, 60, 70 times. The audience hear it once, and so many times I've seen people on stage going, You're gabbling it. You know what you're saying, I know what you're saying, I've heard you say it for 40 days. This audience only heard it for the first time, and you're going so fast, they're not picking it up. That's why they're not laughing. And you want you have to break it down, and you can only learn that through experience over the years of doing so many shows and so many times where it goes well, and so many times it doesn't go well. You go, Why hasn't it gone well? It hasn't gone well because I was working too fast because it's not the same audience that I had this morning. And you work that and you look at it every day and you break it down, which is the same apply as to when you get a new uh cast coming. There might be somebody that's uh come from a soap that has never done Panto before, and they can't add lib. So you have to, once again, you have to adapt to them. Go, if they can't add lib, you can't add lib with them because they're gonna stand there and go, that's not my line. You have to have that ability to know that to read the room, read the room of the audience and read the room on stage. If they can't deal with you, don't give it to them. Save for the people that can deal with that.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

It's another important point you make there, isn't it, about those morning shows or school shows where the audience is made up predominantly of children because they are the audience and very often the performers of the future.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

It's important that kids come and see Panto as their first experience of live theatre, especially at this day and age. Kids are so involved with you know mobile phones and um iPads and God knows what else, a screen in front of them, and they you know they don't go outside as much, they don't play as much, they don't express themselves the same way that I used to as a kid. And so to have a kid go to a theatre at five, six, seven, eight years old for the first time and be able to express themselves, be able to shout at a performer and have the performer shout back at them and interact with them on the same level and and be involved in the show, regardless of how much you you rehearse a panto, it doesn't work till you get the next member of the audience, the next member of the cast. And the audience is the member of that cast because they join in, they're involved as much as we are, and it's a tennis match. You give it to them, they give it back to you. The energy is transferred from them back to us, back to them, back to us. You can never let the ball drop. And if you can get a kid to enjoy that experience for the first time at a young age, then that that's a theatre goal all their life, and it gets them being able to express them. Sometimes it annoys me a little bit because sometimes you get school shows in, and sometimes you get you know, you might have a thousand kids in, all under seven, and you can see the teachers at the end of each row, and sometimes they're they're telling the kids keep quiet. And you go, No, don't don't tell them to keep quiet, let them shout, let them be part of it. They're as integral to this as I am, so let them express themselves, and it annoys me when some teachers get them to keep quiet, and no, let them be who they are, and that's what's important about a panto to me. Also, on another, it's great that that it's a family thing, you know. Every generation comes to it, you know, they get a whole family. Sometimes it's the only thing, only time they get together for that they experience that every year. Sometimes they go on the same show, same day every year. And if you can bring that family together just through that couple of hours, and this is really important, is it gives everybody, including me, including their cast, it gives everybody freedom of concern. For those two hours that that show is on, you are completely immersed in doing it. It's like riding a motorbike, it's like flying a plane. The only thing you can think about when you're doing that show is that show. The only thing that you want the audience to think about when they're watching that show is that show. Because everybody is full of concerns about everything in life. We're bombarded every day of our life now by newspapers, the internet, and everything of all the stuff that's going on in the world. If you give freedom concern, then we've done our job, and that's why that's why I go back to it every year.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Just going back to the relationship with other characters, you know, whether it be Cinderella in uh in Cinderella or whether it be any dame, that's a really key part as well, Joe, isn't it? And that's something you may never have worked together before. So you've got to get that right in the rehearsal room.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Absolutely, and uh because there's such um uh as you said, a diverse way of working, everybody works completely differently now, and a relationship between depending on who the dames are, like this year, um I've got obviously I've doing Cinderella, so we've got two ugly sisters, which would be a different dynamic to work in with uh Mother Goose, so it would be my mum, for example. So, once again, you have to look in in reality as well. What is the reality of this relationship? If this is my mum, then I I will talk to her like I used to talk to my mum in real life. And if this is my sister that I didn't like when I was a kid, I'll talk to her the way I didn't like my sister as a kid. And you put the reality into it, uh, and it's like walking to a room and telling the truth, the same as any acting. If you're doing a play, you know, the the basic I learned very early on acting is about walking to a room, planting your feet, and telling the truth. And it's the same in Panto, it's no different, other than the performance is heightened, but the truth and the reality is still there of the character that you're talking to.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

Liam, talk to me about the the sort of pathos. If you're playing buttons, um you've got to have that crush on Cinderella, which is an integral part of the story, which Isn't really the case in many other pantos, is it? How does that work for you?

SPEAKER_03 22:03

Yeah, that's one of the things that are very, very different when you're playing the character because in Buttons you become, and I think they kind of you become part of the story, a huge part of the story because you love Cinderella so much. And you know, there's the huge, the huge part of when she tells Buttons that she's fallen in love and he thinks it's with him, and and it's just it's such a sad part. And and the audience, by the time this part comes, the audience are so like on buttons' side that they are just oh they're absolutely heartbroken for him. But I really love that character of buttons because it is that part of the story. Whereas the other ones, you are with your simple Simon, you're in the house. But I also love what you were saying about the different characters and working with them. I personally love writing a comic and baddie scene because I I love that relationship of the good and the bad, not just necessarily with the fairy or the good, badie or the bad person. I love the comic and a baddie because you can really go to town on that, and you can really you can get the false corpses in, you can do the laughs, you can do that, you can wind them up a bit, you can change something, and the audience absolutely loves that, I think, because they want them to feel as well because they're the bad guy or the bad ghetto, you know.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

What uh is the best sort of relationship, Joe, that you've had in a panto? I I'm I'm reminded of seeing you at the Birmingham Hippodrome in Peter Pan, uh SMe playing opposite uh Leslie Grantham as Captain Hook, and and I couldn't believe the relationship, the rapport that the two of you had, which had both of you in in stitches as well as the audience.

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Yeah, I did, and in fairness, and and that production there, I worked with Leslie for nine years on the trot though, so we built up that relationship for many, many years, and that's uh it's a case of trusting each other. That um, and uh Leslie was great at letting me add lib as well. He was uh he do you know, knock your pipe out, do whatever you want. Um, and he was fantastic like that with me. And I did Peter Span many with loads of other Captain Hook as well, John Chalice. I did one a couple of years ago with Judge Rinder, who was fantastic as Captain Hook as well. I but to be honest, I love doing Mr. Smee because you can play that as a younger bloke as old, any age you like, and you could do any, and also I don't have to have a shave. It's a big thing for me because I I don't like shaving at the best of times. But for Mr. Smee, you can grow a beard for that. I loved it. But yeah, it is um it is a wonderful um thing when you can build up a relationship with somebody on stage. Sometimes it happens on the first time you work with them as well, you click with them. Uh, I've been very lucky other years. I worked with some great cat hooks. Marty Pello was a great one as well. I loved Marty, he was felt so scary, you know. A lot of them are quite comical. John Challiser said was a comical one, Judge Winder was a comical one, but um, yeah, Leslie was just Dirty Den from East End as he played it as Dirty Den, and it was uh it was wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

Yeah, you often get that, don't you? Those sort of baddies from the soaps play baddies in panto. It seems to work well, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 24:55

Yes, it does indeed. And I said, and uh he was a great actor as well. You know, he never broke character. That was the thing with him. He might, you know, he never really uh broke down, he never cops he might have a wry smile every now and then, but uh he never let himself go. He was a proper actor.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

Liam, what about you? Have you built any sort of relationships up long term with dames or other people on stage?

SPEAKER_03 25:18

Yeah, I worked with a dame, uh a guy called Craig Glover, who has been in Glasgow for several years. Now, Craig and I were actually in the youth theatre together in Scotland and he came to audition, funnily enough, for the Baron. Uh, and I said that I said it's not it's not the right kind of it's not the right time for you. Um, and then I put him into Cinderella as as one of the uglies. But the the thing is because we know each other so well, like Joe was just saying about working with with Leslie Grantham for nine years, you build that rapport and you build that trust because if you're on stage and you go off on a little tangent, you know that the safety net's there for them to come back to. You know that they're not gonna and I've worked with uh a couple of people who it just didn't work as well as what it does now, and that's that's one of the joys of working with somebody that you can trust. You know, if something happens in the audience, you're going to add lib, you're not going to throw them completely by going off script. You're not gonna put them in the spot or make them feel uncomfortable. You just know that, and it works both ways. If Craig was to go and and do something which he has done, and they are ready for him to, and and I know when he's coming back to me, and vice versa, because I think it's really important that you have that rapport with people that you're working with, because there is that safety blanket and safety net, not just for the performers, but also for the audience as well.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

There's no doubt, Liam, isn't there, that um lots of things are changing. Panto continues to evolve, new technology and all sorts of other things, but there'll never be a panto without a central comic, will they?

SPEAKER_03 26:40

I hope not, because it's and I think it's I think it's like really important to have that because you are that kind of comic, and also you're keeping with tradition. And you know, it's it's a shame because sometimes you get people who are actors playing the comic, and they're just going, you know, with what's written down on the script because they're from a soap or they're from someone else, or and I think it's important to have somebody who is a comic playing the comic, who is variety, who is a comedian, who is impressive, or something like that that they can actually just they've got an act, they've got something that they can bring to the table as well as bringing the words and bringing the costumes and things. I think it's important to have because you don't always, as we very well know, you don't see it as often as what as we used to.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

I tell you what, if you do love Panto comics, uh you can get four for the price of one again this autumn because the Pratt pack are back on tour. I'm talking about uh Shane Ritchie, Bradley Walsh, Brian Conley, and Joe Pasquale. And this is just a labour of love for you, Joe, isn't it? It's not hard work, is it?

SPEAKER_01 27:42

No, it's not well, it's no work at all. The only work is trying to catch stay on on a diet because they eat so much rubbish. Uh, that's the hardest thing about it, because the van is filled up with so much sweets, cakes, uh, crisps, and fizzy pop. And it's terrible. I put on a stone last time in a month. It was terrible. But the show itself is just a joy. We, you know, we we share the same dressing room. Uh, we turn up at the venue, two or three o'clock in the afternoon, and we sit in there, get a load of rubbish food in, and we just take the mick out of each other for a few hours, and then when it's showtime, we take the atmosphere we built in that room and just put it on stage, and it's uh it's just a joy. And we're all in our 60s now, so there's no egos involved. No one is saying, Oh, look what he's doing, he's getting laughs there. Why can't I get laughs like that? I wish I could do this, I wish I could do this, why is he doing that? None of that at all. It's like, go on, knock your pipe out, son. Get as mad. And we all we all encourage each other. And the main criteria of the show, really, Martin, is to make each other laugh and the audience go along with that. And it's wonderful to work in front of a big 15-piece band. That's what's a real joy. And I'm the only one I sing, but I'm not a singer. The other three can really sing, and uh, and I don't I do sing in the show, but I'm not a singer, so it's great for me to all of a sudden have this big 15-piece band whacking out behind me, and it's a joy. It really is.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Well, the tickets are available now, that's one worth catching up with in the autumn ahead of the panto season. Uh, and of course, you mentioned Joe that you're playing Baron Hardup this year. Liam, what about you? What's your panto this year?

SPEAKER_03 29:07

We're doing Goldilocks and the three Bonnie Bears, because it's in Scotland, so we're doing that. But I have to say, that that show you were just talking about with the Pratt Pack. I went to see it in Glasgow and I absolutely loved every second of it. I love every person that's in it. I've learned and watched them all for years, and it's just it's an incredible show, and I'll definitely be going back. I loved it.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

And um, your canto this year, Joe, where are you?

SPEAKER_01 29:29

Darkford this year, obviously doing Cinderella, so it's gonna be a real job. I'm writing and directing this year, so that'd be great. Uh, I like I like doing the whole lot because then you have complete control over it, and then it's a funny show. I like to write it funny, I like to direct it in a funny way. Everybody's uh everybody can be humorous, but not everybody's been wacky and zang, as Lynn said earlier. You have to keep it in reality, the love is there, the love has to be there for the characters uh to make it to make the contrast. I always think that the the strength of a panto, a good panto, comes from the baddie. If you've got a really good baddie, you've got a good show. If you've got a baddie that's a bit wishy-washy, excuse the pun. If you've got a baddie that doesn't really cut it, then there's nothing to play against. There's no dynamic. You need a baddie that the audience, and then the goodies become it doesn't matter, the goodies are good, and that's the end of it. But if you've got a weak baddie, you've got a weak show. I always think the baddie is everything.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

Well, listen, it's been fascinating talking to you both. Thank you so much for talking to us. Liam and Joe, thanks for your time. Thank you for the artist.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

Cheers, Liam.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

And that's it for now. Don't forget to subscribe through your favourite podcast app, spread the word to anybody you know who loves pantomime, and next time I'll be chatting to the actor, director, writer, educator, and resonant pantomime dame in Swindon, David Ashley. So join me, Martin Ballard, next time for episode 136 of Just Imagine.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Thank you for listening to the latest edition of Just Imagine, the podcast series from Imagine Theatre. And you can find out more by going to www.imaginetheatre.co.uk