Episode 136 - David Ashley

Episode 136 – David Ashley: Four Decades as a Pantomime Dame

In Episode 136 of the Just Imagine podcast, host Martin Ballard is joined by one of the UK's most respected performers, directors and educators – David Ashley – as he reflects on a remarkable career spanning four decades in theatre and pantomime.

From his early days as a chorister with the Royal School of Church Music to starring in major West End productions including Starlight Express, Cats, Me and My Girl and Les Misérables, David shares the experiences that shaped his journey into becoming one of pantomime's most celebrated dames.

The conversation explores the craft of creating an unforgettable dame, the importance of storytelling and tradition in pantomime, directing while performing, and why the relationship between the Dame and the Comic is at the heart of every successful production.

David also discusses his passion for theatre education, why pantomime deserves greater recognition in actor training, and the lessons he's learned from working alongside some of the industry's finest performers and creatives, including the legendary Susie McKenna.

To mark his 40th anniversary at the Wyvern Theatre in Swindon, David reflects on the fitting return of Jack and the Beanstalk—the very pantomime that launched his professional career in 1986.

Packed with humour, warmth and fascinating behind-the-scenes stories, this episode is an inspiring celebration of a career dedicated to entertaining audiences and keeping the magic of pantomime alive.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Just Imagine a podcast series on the Imagine Theatre.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Hello, this is episode 136 of Imagine the Theatre's podcast series, and this time we're chatting to an actor, creative, educator, Western Regular, and Pantomime Day.

SPEAKER_00 0:19

For more information, go to their website at www.imagintheatre.co.uk.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

Now in the last episode, I was joined by Joe Pasquale and Liam Dolan to discuss the stock pantomime character of the comic. Now, if you missed it, you can still check it out along with all of the other previous episodes, and don't forget to subscribe to the series so that you don't miss any future episodes. This time, as I said, I've been joined by the actor, the theatre creative, the educator who's worked across the UK and appeared in countless West End shows. He's the resident dame for Imagine Theatre at the Wyvern Theatre in Swindon. Here's David Ashley. How are you, Dash?

SPEAKER_02 0:59

I'm really good, thank you, Martin. Lovely to chat to you again. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:02

I'm really, really good. And uh this is going to be an interesting conversation because you, I believe, have been in Panto since Jack and the Beanstalk in 1986 at The Wyvern. Is that right?

SPEAKER_02 1:17

That is. It was my first job back in 1986. You've done your research, loving your work. I was updating my biography for a job that I'm doing in a couple of weeks, and it just surprises me every single time when I look back and go, However did I get this lucky? And I know that's a bit of a cliche, but I really do look back and think, how did this all happen? Because it's the I think the story is quite remarkable. I started off at primary school, a choir master came from Cirencester, which is where we were living at the time, because Dad was in the RAF, so we he was stationed at Ryzen Orton, and we were living there in Sirencester. Choirmaster came and said, Would anyone like to join the choir? And apparently I just put my hand up. And literally, the rest is kind of history. So I got this incredible grounding from Father John Beck and his wife Sue. And literally roll on, however many years later, meeting all these incredible people that really guided me along the way, Molly's Hannah being a massive, massive part of an influence, and you know, literally launched me, I suppose, because she was the one that got me into Panto in 1986 at the Wyburn. It was that's her fault.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

So originally you were a chorister, yes, a student of the piano, I think. But as a child, uh and this is something I ask every guest, do you remember going to see Panto?

SPEAKER_02 2:47

I do. I have two, I think they're called core memories. I don't really know. But I've got two massive memories. The first one is going to see, and I can't remember the panto. I've got a funny feeling it's it was around, it was like Dick Whittington or it was something, it was one of those. And uh it was in Cirencester again. I must have been about, I don't know, seven or eight. And it was at the Varn Theatre when the barn was literally the Misson Hut before it's had its fabulous renovations. The thing I remember is being asked, would anyone it was the song sheet? Would anyone like to get up? And I remember standing up and going, we were I was on the inside, if that makes sense, of the kind of by the wall. And I looked and I went, Do you know what? I'm never gonna get there. And I remember that disappointment. And the second thing I remember, and I must have been, I don't know, maybe a few years later, maybe 11 or 12, and we went to see John Inman in Aladdin. And no, I'm lying, in Mother Goose at the Bristol Hippoton. And I can tell you the colour of the scenery in the scene where Mother Goose regrets becoming beautiful and wealthy. And it I absolutely remember the emotion that that moment gave me. And I think that that moment has been the catalyst of how I direct Pantos. That pathos, that moment of regret, the moment of the stakes being so high for this character that it completely moved me, even at that age. And I remember the all sitting in the audience, kind of feeling how the audience responded to what John was doing, and I thought this is really magic. So, yeah, those two moments are absolutely key.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Was there at any point at that sort of light bulb moment of I want to be any sort of entertainer, any sort of performer?

SPEAKER_02 4:37

To be honest with you, Martin, I think what it was, it was the choir. The choir set it all off. I don't know if you know Silence, but Silence Cester is one of the biggest parish churches in the country. It's huge and it's it has massive kind of services and the pomp, the ceremony. There was a massive organ that I learned how to play when I was older, and it was kind of the whole performative element of what that did. That was the thing that led me down the path of being an actor, being a performer. Also, there were, I got involved, there was a dance, uh one of my um school teachers was a contemporary dance teacher as well. So I got involved a little bit in that. I was then joined amateur groups. It kind of all started from the chorister thing because obviously there were people in the congregation that ran a local amateur society, that then I got kind of taken on board on. My dad used to say to me that the only thing you wanted to do was be on stage. You've always known that. You've never had any doubt. You've always known what you wanted to do. And Martin, honestly, I can't remember making the decision to do it. Yeah, it wasn't a kind of a light bulb, it literally was, well, I'm doing this then. And kind of not in an arrogant, egotistical way of going, Well, I really enjoyed this, I think I can do this. I mean, obviously, completely naive, had not a clue what I was doing. But I did just kind of go, Yeah, this is there was no other option. And I that sounds as if, you know, very dramatic. There's nothing else I can do. But actually, I didn't even think about anything else. You know, family was dad was in the raft, mum was a you know, office manager, uh, you know, my sisters are really clever, and I went, yeah, I'm gonna do this because I I really love it.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

I'll tell you what, you mentioned Father John, and I don't think there can be many panto dames or performers in the industry in general who started their training at the Royal School of Church Music.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Like no. And do you know what? It's it I think it took me a long time to actually put that on my CV. I don't know why. I think well, I think actually, you probably hit the nail on the head by saying there's not many performers that were, but I remember crossing paths with a lovely colleague, Paul Blackwell, and he had done the same thing. And I just went, Oh my, you've got the same, you went to the you know, Royal Schools of Church Music, and he went, Yeah. And we had this conversation about there aren't very many of us. And I think it's because I was a bit embarrassed about it. Now I look back and go, idiot, it was the best grounding you could possibly have. We I mean, we rehearsed Mondays, obviously after school, Mondays, Tuesdays, Thursdays, Fridays with the whole choir. If we had a wedding on a Saturday, we'd sing them, and we had two services on a Sunday. Plus, we went on tour. We were resident choirs in, I mean, gosh, we went, Winchester, Worcester, Landath. Uh, we sang, we were the resident choir in Westminster Abbey for the Easter services, which had never happened before. So the level of professionalism and rigor that was required of us, and of course, we were paid a tiny amount. So you can't, it was a bit of a win-win situation for me. And I loved it. I loved how it elevated things, and I think that's part of how I am as a as a an artist as well. I try and elevate anything that I'm given to kind of find find the best version that it could be.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Yeah, I was gonna say that um what a fabulous musical grounding the World School of Church Music is, and I know you went on to train at other places later on and uh City University and and so on, but I never imagined that uh the Royal School of Church Music would also prepare you for theatre life, whether that's twice-nightly services or you know UK tours, but it it turned out to be the perfect place to start.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Exactly, and I think that it was I knew, I think it was if there was an instinct about it. I mean, there's also don't get me wrong, there's a big showing-off element. You know, I listened back to some of the recordings and I just listened to this kind of I mean, I have to say, I don't recognise the voice at all. I just go, who is that really me? I really sounded that angelic, God knows, God knows how. But it's that thing of I can hear me singing a specific high note, and because the church was so big, I could play with the echo in the church, so I could lean into the fact that this note was really resounding around the building. So I'd make it a little bit longer, and I went, it was showing off even now. And I just think you just think it was a natural progression to go, hmm, how how can I get because the feeling you get from that is is second to none. So you think, well, let's see where this can take. But the big the big shift for me came when we moved house. So mum was headhunted by a company, and we they they then moved to just outside Swindon, and this is a massive turning point. So I I was furious, clearly. I think I was 16 or 17 around there, must have been, and um, we moved halfway through the academic year. At the time I was livid, but clearly academic year, who was I kidding back then? So I then was playing at a music festival with a school friend from Saracesta called Lisa Mackay, and she she was singing, and I met a lady who said, You play the piano very well. And actually, let me pause that. I'll come back to that in a sec. My sisters went, it's all coming back, Martin. My sisters went to a ballroom dancing class, and I can't I can't remember the name of it. Sullivan's was it in Sanctuary, and they needed a partner. So I went along. Then a few years into that, a jazz a jazz teacher arrived who taught Tab, and I fell in love with Tab. Obviously, with the rhythm of the music that I'd already got, I fell in love with it. So, long story short, let's put that in a myth. Let's fast forward to us moving hands. So I've done that for a few years. Molly Tanner was her name, ran the famous Tannwood Theatre School, and she said, You play very well. And I said, Uh, thank you very much, but I also sing and I dance a little bit and I'd like to go into musicals. By that point, I decided that that's what I wanted to do. And she said, Hmm, well, turn up on Monday morning, play for ballet class, and take as many classes as you can, and I'll see what I can do with you. And the rest, Martin, is as they say, history. And I honestly, Molly Tanner, so I've got there's a like I said, there's a few people who were who instigated my kind of trajectory. It was, as I said, Father John Beck and his wife Sue, and then it was Molly Tanner, who literally changed everything. I mean, I'm quite emotional even thinking about that time back then because I don't know what she thought. I don't know how she kind of thought, yes, this kind of rangy 16, 17-year-old tall, skinny glass of water who played the piano. So turned up Monday morning. My mum and dad were like, What? What? You've got to do A-levels. Well, what do you do? So I went to Molly Tannis on Monday morning, played for a ballet class, made up all sorts of stuff, and I took every single class that was possible that I could take, every dance class, and anything to try and get myself to some sort of standard that I could then audition. And of course, back then you needed an equity card. So Molly was brilliant. Obviously, the why then back then, because they did their pantos, they did completely in-house. So they made the costumes, they made the scenery, there was an orchestra in the pit, there was a band. Oh, it was wonderful. I don't know how. She wangled me into the pantomime, and I got my equity card, you know, with our however many 49 weeks or whatever it was back then before they changed it to 35. Or is it 42 weeks that they then changed to 35? And I was she got me into doing extra work, kind of, you know, any random job to get, you know, playing for concerts for military bases. And we went all over the shop to try and get our full equity card. And of course, from Jack and the Beanstalk, that's when I really dug into well, this is definitely what I want to do. I did a few commercials through her because she has an agency. And then about 1987, so it was like it wasn't, it was probably just a year that I'd been with Molly Tanner at the Tamil Theatre School. An audition came in and she said, I think you should go. And of course, I was getting like, Yep, we're gonna go. Mum, Mum, can I have the money for the tank fair? That was the situation. Very long story short, Kurt Ganzel. I don't know if you remember Kurt Gansell was a huge casting director in the Western back in the 80s and beyond. And um he called Molly and said, Why do you keep sending this whimp? Those were his words, and she basically convinced him to see me for this audition, right? It was a massive, massive audition. Anyway, long story short, I did the first audition, and then the feedback was okay, I'll see him for a recall in in two weeks' time, but he hasn't to bulk up, he's too skinny. So, Martin, I went to Argos in Swinden, and I got mum to mum and dad to lend me the money, foolish they were back then. They lent me the money and I bought a weight training kit, and of course, people put it on the counter for me to pick up. I picked it up, and of course, I instantly dropped it because it weighed a ton. It was like a complete comedy sketch of me doing this. For the two weeks, I tried as hard as I could to build some muscle on my rangy, skinny body. I worked, I did everything I possibly could. The recall was all day and it was exhausting. I was like, started at nine o'clock and we finished at about, I don't know, maybe five o'clock. I played the piano at one point for them, sang. I did everything, I literally did everything I possibly could to try and you know get further or even get the job if I could even believe that. The director, Joe Lehman, came down and called me down. So all the boys were lined up, and I thought, well, this is the final moment, they're gonna choose us. And he called me down into the auditorium, and I just went, my heart sank. And I thought, oh, I haven't got it. And he said, you know, this man who had, you know, directed massive Broadway shows, he just finished doing Barnum with Michael Crawford. He said, Okay, David, I'd just like to, you know, to let you know that you are the first person that we've cast for this show. Wow. And I literally stood there shaking. I didn't hear anything else he said past then, but I literally went, Oh, this I was 18 at the time. And I then went back, I ran back and called the payphone because it was at the London Palladium that the recalls, and I called Molly and I said, Molly, and this was about five half past four, five o'clock. I said, Molly, they've just offered me the job. I can't believe it, I can't believe it. And she said, I know they have. And I went, What do you mean you know they have? She said, Kurt called me at 10 o'clock this morning to offer you the job. I just went, What? I've just been told, and she went, he called me straight away. He saw what you'd done, how hard you'd worked, how you changed, and he offered you the job straight away. You're the first person that I know. I know, I've just been told that by July. And it was the most incredible moment. And at so we started rehearsals, my birthday's in January. What was the job, David? So it was a musical called Ziegfeld. It was about the infrasario, Florence Ziegfeld. It was at the London Palladium, and at the time, it was the most expensive musical the West End had ever seen. It was an incredible experience. Not a particularly brilliant script, but it was an incredible production. And I met, I'm still in contact with them now. These incredible human beings. And I my training as an actor then moved up into the next level, and I started learning how to do it from dance captains, from assistant directors, from creators, from cast members. I didn't know air, I'm, you know, there's green, and there's goodness, I was completely green. But I had the most amazing experience, and I still do because I've never stopped kind of being grateful for the opportunities.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Countless West End shows and you know, challenging ones as well. You know, put your skates on for Starlight Express, you know, the vision in Lycra for cats. Obviously, massive shows like Lears and many others. I saw you, I didn't know who you were at the time. I saw you back in 1990, I think it was, uh at the Leicester Haymarkets. Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, giving your Zeke, I think it was.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

Yes, it was indeed, and that with the wonderful Julianne Gregory who choreographed Me and My Girl. So which you didn't quite a few of us were lucky enough to be to audition and get in the show. So it was quite a Me and My Girl cast, which was really lovely. And funny enough, Me and My Girl had its 40th anniversary, was it last year or the year before? And we had a huge reunion, and it was one of the best afternoons ever. Those beautiful people. And I remember the producer, Jenny Montefiori, said it truly was the happiest. That was the kind of one of the sound, one of the bites from the press was happiest show in town. One of the cast members said, Well, Jenny, there's a real reason it was the happiest show in town because we were the happiest people doing it. And I just went, Yeah, we really were. We were looked after beautifully, and it was such a wonderful show. And with Jessica Martin and Gary Wilmot, I mean, dream team, it really was.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

So I saw it from the very beginning in its infancy at uh Leicester Haymarket, of course, directed by Mike Okrant, booked by Stephen Fry. I remember interviewing Robert Lindsay and Emma Thompson before anybody really knew what it was going to be like. Uh, it threw up talented performers like Rosemary Ford was in it, for instance, who went on to do the generation game. And a friend of mine, Howard Rayner, was in it, who I trained with, and also a Leicestershire actor called Roy McCready, who uh oh my goodness, he did his fair number of dames previously uh uh as well, and what a great cast! But it was the ultimate feel-good show, wasn't it? Totally.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

I kind of miss that in the West End, if I'm really honest. In the reunion, Stephen Fry said something really interesting. Well, clearly, he's an incredible, incredible kind of human being. He talked about, he said, you know, there's a word missing from this, and he said, It's comedy. This was a musical comedy. And I just went, totally, where are those big musical comedies that you kind of escapism, you want to walk out and kind of feel really not changed, but necessarily, but really happy because of what you've just seen. It sets you up. I played the overture to a group of students and said, What are the emotions coming through this that you get? And they just went, Oh my goodness, it's like a train ride. You're kind of going round, you know, different places, and you can hear all this energy, and it just feels so positive and happy. And you go, Yes, it is. I'm obviously it's very close to my heart, but I miss those musicals in the West End. You can obviously, we've had Crazy For You revival recently, there's been anything goes before that, but I do go, we do musical comedy really well in this country, and I I do feel a bit sad that we don't have more of it. If I'm honest, I'd love me a big kind of lavish wicked or any of those, but I do miss pop-up musical comedy.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Yeah, I agree, and I think for me, the closest two shows in recent years that you know have a bit of comedy and are uplifting in quite the same way, and that real feel-good factor are hairspray, but also the new version, if you like, of Half Sixpence with Charlie Stamp and Emma Williams. But let's go back to Panto because 1986 was your first one at the Wyvern. What about your first dame? When was that? And when did anybody ever say to you, Do you fancy giving Dame a go?

SPEAKER_02 21:08

So Martin, I was doing a really serious uh musical at Soul Speed Playhouse. The musical's called The Hired Man. And it's Howard Goodall and Oh goodness, I can't remember to write his name. Melvin Bragg. Based on his book, and it is the most beautiful, heart-wrenching, terrible, in all honesty, story of life before, during, and just after the first world war. But it's so incredibly moving. So I was doing this and I was playing a comedy role. One of the I mean funny that. I was playing a comedy role called The Recruiting Officer. And it was a moment just before World War One, kind of they all get dispatched to the front lines. And I was kind of given this moment, and the uh associate director, Caroline Leslie, came over and went, You've not thought about playing the Dame, have you? And part of me went, I'm in this really serious musical. How are you? And then I went, Oh, hold on. It's the recruiting officer, isn't it? And so that Christmas I played my first game. It was Twinkee in Aladdin. And the floodgates opened, and it was game over. I just went, Well, I'm loving this. I did two years in a row there in Salisbury. And oh my goodness, I looked because they it's an in-house production, so they wrote it with us in mind. Oh my goodness, was it bliss? I mean, hard work, but oh I I learned such a lot. In those venues, which are kind of in-house produced, they allow you to develop certain routines, or you know, I'd been I'd been in Panto before as an ensemble member, but not as a principal. So I'd seen some great Danes working and some great laddies working, but I was able to develop my own style of who she was and who I like to bring out as it were every year. So yeah, it was Salisbury.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

My dame was very much Les Dawson, Norman Evans, you know, that sort of uh dame. Warm, characterful. What about you? Who who influenced you? You mentioned John Inman earlier.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Yeah, I think I look to all the strong women that I've had in my life, I suppose. I also look at the all the cla I mean, you know, Stanley Baxters, John Inman, yeah, the people that I kind of just go, they're not playing a uh I know this is gonna sound quite obvious, a man in a dress. They're playing a character. The thing I loved about John Inman was the fact I completely believed the character. John didn't come out of character, they were they were this this person, and that's what I kind of held on to. I suppose I look a maybe a little bit of Julie Walters a little bit. There's something sharp about her wit, but also she's my dame is very slow in terms of her processing of certain events that happen. She's got a massive heart, but doesn't really understand what's really going on. So I suppose it's looking at those classics of going, who is the character, as opposed to if it's a man in a dress, because I don't for me that that I don't play that type of dame. So it would be Stanley Baxter, and it definitely, and it would be John Inman. Those are my key, plus Les Dawson, of course, because Leslie Dawson played a character. And if you look at the you know, the two Ronnies, you know, Ronnie Barker, you just go, Well, Ronnie, you know, an actor is playing a character, you know, depending on how they're dressed, it's still the character. So I suppose that's those would be my influences.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

And over the years, I I mean, I can't imagine how many comics you've played opposite. That sort of relationship is crucial to any panto, isn't it? How do you manage that with such a short rehearsal period? Trust.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

I honestly I you you have to go. If if I I really believe that panto is led by two important things, and the first is the story, and the second is tradition. We can absolutely find the funny, but if the funny comes before the story, it doesn't really work for me. So it's kind of that really helps, but you're right, it's a really, it's a really quick process. I mean, I've been really lucky. Paul Berling and I hit it off like you know, it's like we've worked together forever. And then, of course, the glorious Ben Gough, who is a wonderful comic, and we hit it off straight away. So I think there's an understanding, it's when people come from the same perspective, that's when it works really, really well.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

The joy is as well that you've you've just mentioned two people there. Uh, I've worked with Paul and I know Ben. They are very, very different. Paul's obviously a fabulous impressionist. Ben is multi-talented, excellent musician, fabulous dancer. They're completely different, and that's the joy, isn't it? Because each of them is bringing something completely different.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

Definitely. And it challenges me, Martin. It challenges me to look at how I do the dame in relationship to those people. Because I want I want to serve them as well. It's not just all about, well, you know, I've I've done X amount of pantos at the Wyvern, blah, blah, blah. It's actually no no no, we have to create the best show possible. How can I help you with what with what I do and how can you help me? It's a real exchange of kind of work, which I absolutely love. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

I've got an an interesting question for you because uh we haven't really talked about your career as an educator uh to various drama schools, you know, other institutions and so on, but also as a director. And the one thing that we talk about a lot is the fact that despite the fact that pantomime employs more actors and performers than any other genre in theatre, there is no formal pantomime training in drama schools. Why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_02 27:03

I have no idea. And you know, I've been teaching since 91, and it stuns me that this we will look at worlds like Shakespeare, you look at Chekhov, which are you know big, believable characters, and you just go, this is a natural link. If you draw into something, any Shakespeare play, you just go, these are heightened, this is a heightened world. This is a world where the character is what you could say larger than what you you could argue larger than what real life is. I would argue, have you watched real life recently? These characters are pretty massive, but it's the trying to create a you know a believable, large character, and how it's all rooted in truth. And you go, hmm. So actually, the next step is to kind of you know move it into Panther because some of the best actors have come from that classical world. The nearest I've ever come to it was I used to musical direct the Gilbert and Sullivan's uh Arts Educational Arts Ed as part of my job. Ian Good was the director. That's what we dealt with because those characters are larger than life, but have to be believable. So I think you're right. I I think it's a real sadness, and part of the joy for me as well as being a director, I get the chance to work with actors who have never done Panther before. Yeah, and you can see them on the first day going, I have no idea what this genre is, and then you have the conversation with them going, Look, have you done Shakespeare? And they go, Yeah, and you go, It's that. And they then see as where else will go how how truthful this is. It's ridiculous, you know, with with sending someone up a up a beanstalk, which is completely a ridiculous idea. But if you've got the believability within the situation, if you've got that jeopardy set up, if you've got the dynamic working for you theatrically and emotionally, the audience for it left, right, and centre, and you go, that's the point. So, yeah, I think it it is a disappointment when actually the groundwork of something like Shakespeare and Chekhov is actually present already. It's just part of that canon for me.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

I think you're absolutely right. I mentioned the fact that you direct as well, and uh obviously back at the Wyvern again this Christmas. How do you manage your time as dame and director? Because it can be challenging, particularly during tech week and so on. You know, how do you do that? And is that something you've learnt over time?

SPEAKER_02 29:39

Yes, most definitely. I'm very, very lucky. I get to work with some incredible choreographers who also assist as the director as well. So we kind of I'm I'm a big team player. I'm I don't believe in a tutor decapi, I believe in the team, creative team creates what we need to do. And I and I include the cast and the crew and the front of house. Uh literally, we all create this this product. But uh I've worked with Cherice Renov quite a few for quite a few years now, and I adore the storytelling that she brings into the choreography, but also a second set of eyes to go, what's happening over here, or we need to kind of play that a little bit, you know, whatever. And Damien Delaney, who I absolutely adore as well, I've been lucky enough to work with them, and you think it's it's having that second person, and of course, there's a musical director, but they're really busy with you know the tax and teaching and getting the harmonies correct and all that. So it's working out how you can balance all of it together. And I think for me, and it's happened quite a few times, I said, please can I get the music for my song as early as I possibly can because I can't learn it. My head is too full of information. If I get it too late, I'm just not going to learn it. And I remember driving, I used to teach at the Oxford School of Drama. I remember driving, and I'm literally driving from my house to Oxford Drama, which is about a 35, 40 minute drive, trying to sing these songs. So my director head goes, This is a brilliant number. My actor head goes, I can't learn it. And then, of course, we get into the rehearsal room, and Sharice or Damien will look at me and go, Shall we do your number today? And I go, nope, we need to do the finale. No, we need to do this. Nope. And they go, they're looking at me going, Dash, you need to do it early because you won't remember it. And I'll go, I know, but I've got too much to do. So the balance is going. I get to the run through, the producer's run, which is normally at the end of the week, and I literally stand there going, Have I blocked this for myself? I had a DSM last year, company slash company manager, say, Dash, you haven't done your opening session. And I went, No, I haven't. So I've got a big list. I mean, life is all about lists for me anyway, but I've got a big list of things, and nine times out of ten, I won't have done some of my stuff if it's on my own, until I literally go, as we're going to do the run through. I'll go, haven't done this. So he's a real, honestly, Martin, it's a real balancing act. But with the team that you know, we work so beautifully together, that really helps. Honestly, I'm a bit of a control freak. There I said it.

unknown 32:17

I just go.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

I like being able to kind of hold all of that as well. So I'm, you know, I'm I suppose I'm a wise Benami. Anyone else would go, no, that's far too much. But I'm like that, going, no, bring it on. If I could do the lights, I would.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Look, here's a really tricky one for you. I don't know how many pantos you've done over the years now, but do you have a favourite panto title?

SPEAKER_02 32:41

I do. And ironically, it's Jack and the Beanstalk. I love Jack and the Beanstalk. I also there's there's lights. I also love Cinderella. I also, you know, but there's something about Jack and the Beanstalk that I think it's uh well, I tell you what it is. It's because it's all centred around the family unit, and I love that. I mean, it couldn't be more relevant, I suppose, in any point in history, a family struggling to keep going, but that family unit is the thing that galvanizes them together. As a message to give an audience, I really love that. That they can see the dynamic within it, they can see the problems that happen, they see, and of course, the Fantasy Landing Act 2, I absolutely adore it.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

It's got all the ingredients, that's for sure. Yeah, the family unit, the the sort of warm, fuzzy feeling that that brings, especially at a time where many people are saying the family units are not what they used to be, but also that real adventure, because for me, that's the only downfall for Cinderella, because there is no real adventure in Cinderella. With Jack and the Beanstalk, there is, there is an obvious baddie, you know, flesh creep uh aside, you know, the giant looming, that amazing scene where you know at the back of the stage the doors open and the giant walks out for the first time, it's got that real wow factor. I think it's got everything, hasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 34:05

I couldn't agree more. It keeps giving. Some pantos, sadly, they the act two can fall down a little bit because the story isn't really there. But with Jack and Jack, you open the Act Two and you're in almost a different show because you're in a different land. So it's a complex one to direct, I think. It's a complex one to kind of look at to make sure that all the dynamics are present. But it it's got, like you say, it's got everything, and I love that. I absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Plus the pathos of selling the cow and the magic. Yeah, totally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

And I think you know, another big influence on my panto career, I have to mention Susie McKenna at The Hackney Empire. Yeah. I was lucky enough to do three pantos with her there. Sadly, never Jack and the Bee's talk, but she was the one that really worked that pathos into stupid, ridiculous, paired with heart-wrenching pathos. And I learned again a massive amount from Susie and how the script was kind of worked and how how those emotional elements are present. And I think Jack in the Beastalk really shows that off.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

It's been an absolute pleasure, David. Firstly, uh, before we finish, we've been talking about the Wyvern Theatre, we've been talking about Swindon, and we've been telling people that you're back there this year. But what is the panto this year?

SPEAKER_02 35:19

I'm thrilled beyond belief, actually, that my first job at the Wyvern Theatre was Jack and the Beanstalk. Uh-huh. And celebrating my 40th anniversary is Jack and the Beanstalk back at the Wyvern Theatre.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

I'm over the moon. How fabulous is that. How fabulous. Dash, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for talking to us.

SPEAKER_02 35:41

Always a pleasure, Martin.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

And once again, we've run out of time, I'm afraid. Don't forget to subscribe through your favourite podcast app. Spread the word to anybody you know who loves pantomime, and next time we'll be chatting to the critically acclaimed award-winning freelance director, writer, and actor who's worked in theatre, television, and film. She's perhaps best known for writing and directing the legendary pantomimes at the Hackney Empire. Join me for episode 137 when I'll be talking to Susie McKenna.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Thank you for listening to the latest edition of Just Imagine Imagine. And you can find out more by coming to W W W Imagine W.