Invest to Get the Best from Disabled Employees

Helen Cooke is the founder and chief executive of MyPlus. Helen joined me for this brilliant conversation about her company which specialises in employment and disability. I met Helen years ago while working at the BBC whilst running the BBC's disabled staff forum, BBC Ability. I was interested in the employment of disabled people within the corporation and reached out to Helen for some support and advice. 

If you're enjoying this episode and looking to boost equity, inclusion, and diversity in your organisation, my team and I are here to help. Our team specialises in crafting data-driven strategies, developing inclusive leaders, designing fair recruitment processes, and enhancing disability confidence. With a blend of professional expertise and lived experience, we're ready to support you on your journey. Reach out to us through our website. 

If you want to build a more inclusive workplace that you can be proud of please visit our website to learn more.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Inclusive Growth show with Toby Mildon, future proofing your business by creating a diverse workplace.

Toby Mildon: Hey there, thank you ever so much for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth show. I'm Toby Mildon, and today I'm joined by Helen Cooke, who is the founder and chief executive of MyPlus. And I met Helen years ago when I was working at the BBC. We were trying to figure out exactly how we met, but I think what we settled on was that I, who at the time was running the BBC's disabled staff forum called, BBC Ability. And naturally I was interested in the employment of disabled people within the corporation and reached out to Helen for some support and advice. Helen and her company specialize in employment and disability. And you'll get to hear more from Helen herself about what they do. So, Helen, thanks ever so much for joining me today, it's great to see you.

Helen Cooke: Toby, I'm absolutely delighted that you asked me to join you. So thank you very much. As you say, we met a long time ago and it's fantastic to be speaking to you today.

Toby Mildon: This episode is a... It's a long time coming, we should have done it years ago, I think. So Helen, could you just elaborate a bit more on that introduction? Tell us a bit more about who you are and what you do as a business.

Helen Cooke: Yeah, absolutely. So our mission at MyPlus is to ensure that having a disability doesn't prevent anyone from having the career that they want to have. And for the last 16 years, we've worked with employers, we've worked with individuals and we've worked with universities to make that a reality. And it's something that I guess, as a person that has a disability that I'm particularly passionate about, not least that I've been fortunate enough to have had an enjoyable career since I graduated many years ago. So when I first graduated, I worked for Marks and Spencer on their management training program. I get at time when it was quite unusual for people with disabilities to be going to university, let alone getting a job like that. And then after three and a half years, I moved to Mars and the wonderful world of chocolate, originally in a commercial role.

Helen Cooke: And then I moved into HR and recruitment and student recruitment. And the approach that we take is very much business as usual. And I'm sure we will come on to cover this, but I think now the disability agenda is too big for there to be... It to be about initiatives and events and for us to recruit one or two people and to pat ourselves on the back and say that we're doing a good job. If we're serious about being inclusive, if we're serious about talent in our organization, we have to be inclusive of people with disabilities.

Toby Mildon: Absolutely and I would like to add that I also have a disability. So the person listening to us right now may not have heard this before, but I was born with a rare genetic neuromuscular disability called spinal muscular atrophy. So I'm a wheelchair user and I need 24-hour care. So we both have disabilities. Obviously you've been working in this space for quite a while now. How satisfied are you with the progress that's being made within the disability and employment space? 

Helen Cooke: Think if I'm trying to be positive, Toby, I'd say progress is being made. I've worked in this space, as you say now for over 16 years, progress is absolutely being made and particularly seen a massive focus in the last couple of years, but it's slow and it's not nearly quick enough. And I think I still get frustrated that we are still talking about the same old things. I think we know that companies have invested in other strands of diversity and they can make incredible progress when they want to. But for a number of reasons, I think disability has been the poor relation and the area that employers often look at last and not surprisingly, therefore progress is slow, but where we have seen organizations really recognize the talent pool that exists and who want to support their existing staff who have disabilities and as well as be inclusive of those that they recruit. We've seen them make huge progress. And I think, I don't really want to start... It's difficult if you start naming companies because there's so many that you could name, but I think... I've particularly seen this with some of the law firms. I think they were very slow to the start line, but some of them have gone from absolute hero to zero, people like Herbert Smith Freehills, for example, absolutely phenomenal what they've achieved, really recognizing the talent pool that exists.

Toby Mildon: That's really encouraging, 'cause what you're saying really resonates with me. Yeah, I talk to several clients, or sorry, the stage before they become a client, let's say, and they have this very kind of siloed or hierarchical approach to diversity. So they think very much in terms of groups and cohorts and they might say, "well right now our focus is on women in technology, or women on the board, and next year we're gonna do ethnicity because of the black lives matter, the year after that we're gonna do mindfulness, and then we're thinking about doing disability after that. We're not quite sure yet because we probably should do LGBT first." And I'm thinking, hang on a sec, like this is not a very sustainable way of managing diversity and inclusion within an organization. It's also ignoring the fact that we are intersectional human beings, that you could be a woman and disabled for instance. I mean why do you think that organizations seem to find that disability is kind of one of the most challenging areas on the diversity agenda? 

Helen Cooke: Well, first of all, Toby, I have to say I was smiling as you were saying that because it is something that I heard again and again, particularly when I set up 16 years ago, it was very much... The focus was on gender and ethnicity, we're not doing disability. And as you say, you know, I'm not just a woman, I'm a woman with a disability and I might be a black woman with a disability or a gay woman with a disability, but we can't support that bit 'cause we haven't done it yet. And as you say it does it doesn't work like that. Very strange way of approaching it. But why do I think that organizations find disability so difficult? And I think there's a number of reasons...

Helen Cooke: I think first of all, disability is an all-encompassing term that covers so many conditions. And we have to do potentially something different for these organizations. We talk about reasonable adjustments, probably not the most helpful term, but everybody's disability manifests itself differently. And we all manage ourselves, manage our disability differently. And therefore, we have to take a very unique approach to everyone. And I think that sometimes as well people can get confused. Dare I say that disability competence... It's not about being an expert in all the different types of disabilities. It's about being comfortable to engage in the relevant conversations. So I think that one, it is a huge topic.

Helen Cooke: I think, secondly, there's this fear factor. People don't know always what to say and what to do. You and I are both wheelchair users, both very, very visible when we're out and about, not so much in our virtual world and actually it's quite funny, isn't it? I'm sure you've had the same on the screen, people can't necessarily see that we have a disability, but people often before they ask you for... If you want any help will say things like, "oh, I don't mean to be rude, or I don't want to offend you, or I hope you don't mind me asking." And people are so worried about getting it wrong, seemingly getting it wrong. And I think that this fear factor is a barrier. I think it's a huge barrier.

Toby Mildon: Absolutely. I've come across that fear factor with senior leaders. And it's almost like there's this imposter syndrome as well. And it's not just the disability space. I was speaking to a senior leader and a client of mine. It was during LGBT month. And he was saying, "you know, who am I as a straight man to talk about LGBT issues in the business?" And I was like, "well, as a senior leader you need to lean into those awkward conversations and be a role model so that other people feel seen and heard for who they really are." So I can... There's kind of... I can draw some parallels there as well.

Helen Cooke: But I think also on that point, Toby, they say that one in three of us is either disabled or closely related to someone who is. Now I actually think that it's probably higher than that. Unfortunately, most of us know somebody who's had cancer. Most of us know somebody, if we don't have a disability ourselves, our family and friend, we work with someone and therefore it's a conversation that is relevant to all us. But as you say as well, I think that... For an organization becoming disability confident doesn't sit with DNI. It doesn't sit with the disability network. It doesn't sit with the HR department. If you are serious about being a disability competent organization, every single person has to be an ally. As you say, every single person needs to understand disability and to be comfortable to engage.

Toby Mildon: Absolutely. So when organizations get in touch with you and ask for help, what is it that they often ask you for help with? 

Helen Cooke: Well, the two things that... I'd be a very rich woman if I had a pound for every time I'd asked for help, are disclosure and attraction. So I'm gonna start with disclosure, which I don't like that term. This is about encouraging people to be open about their disability. And companies, I guess, they want people to be open for all sorts of reasons. One, to support them. I mean, that's probably the most important to put the support and adjustments in place, but I guess they also want their measurements. They need to know whether their policies and practices are working, but we talk about disclosure. It's not a helpful term. It makes it sound like we've got this horrible secret that we're gonna let out of the bag. And I think it would be much more helpful if we talked about perhaps sharing information, telling, informing, openness.

Helen Cooke: I think often when... So companies want to monitor their stats, and they will often ask this question, "do you have a disability?" But there's no context. There's no... This is why we're asking you. This is what we're gonna do with the information. And surely if we ask the question, "do you have a disability?" The next question isn't, "do you need any support?" We don't reassure people of confidentiality. And we have to remember, we're asking people about very personal information. My fear is that, you know, everybody's gonna know. I think there's often a lack of role models. So actually, we don't have role models in the organization, we don't have those senior leaders. As you say who are prepared to be open about their poor mental health or their experience of cancer or their dyslexia. You know, how can we expect other people to open up about it? And obviously as well, there's this fear of discrimination and judgment. You know, once I've told you that I have a disability, I can't control the judgments that you are going to make and let's face it, you know, Toby, and I'm not a negative person, you know that, but often they are quite negative still. The judgments are quite negative.

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Helen Cooke: So disclosure is a biggie. And the other part is around attraction. So as well as organizations wanting to look after their current employees and have that culture of openness, they want to ensure that they're inclusive in their recruitment processes. And they find this challenging. And I always think with students, and we do a lot of work in the student space. And it's probably where we're best known, not least... Not many other companies are doing what we're doing in the student space. I always say, I don't think it's that hard. We know where students are. They're at the university. We're talking about the graduate recruiters here and they already have established relationships with universities. So actually it's about their messaging and engagement, ensuring that they're marketing to everybody. Professionals I think is harder. People will often say, "well, where do I advertise to attract disabled professionals, but what about disabled job boards?" And I would always say, as a disabled individual, I don't think people use disabled job boards.

Helen Cooke: Now having said that we just launched one at MyPlus, which I come onto, but for me, the attraction is about how do they position themselves. The first thing I'm gonna do is I'm gonna look at an employer's website and I'm gonna want to look for information about disability, their approach to it, why it's important to them, them as an inclusive employer, I'm going to look for role models. And if I can't find any of that and can't find it easily, I'm gonna move on to another company.

Toby Mildon: Yeah. I know when I looked at jobs, I often looked at comments on Glassdoor and Indeed, I went fishing for information to see if other people were talking about generally how inclusive it was. But if there were any specific disability comments, 'cause I always felt quite spoiled at the BBC. I was there for nine years and out of the companies that I've worked for the BBC was the most disability inclusive organization I worked for. I mean, there were visibly loads of disabled people in the BBC and it was a real culture shock when I left the BBC to go and work for another company where I was the only wheelchair user in my office. And I felt like I was quite spoiled at the BBC.

Helen Cooke: That's was interesting, isn't it? But the fact that you said that it was so visible, but I think that going back to your comment as well, is that are people talking about it because when we look at how broad disability is, we look at one in 19 of the working age population has a disability. One in... 15% of students in UK universities, companies, whether they know it or not are going to be recruiting disabled individuals, they're going to have disabled individuals. But if people aren't talking about it, in my opinion, that's telling me something and that's telling me that this company perhaps isn't as inclusive and as open as they should be.

Toby Mildon: Yeah. I did a diversity and inclusion survey at one of my clients and their HR information system told them that they had 2% of their workforce were disabled. When I did my survey, 16% of people, of respondents said that they had a disability or long term health condition, which is comparable to the number of working age adults in the UK. And there was this huge gap. And now we're doing some follow-up work with them to find out what is preventing people from being so open about disability and health conditions on their official HR systems and what more could we do to support disabled staff? 

Helen Cooke: But I think just actually the wording that you've used there, I think that when we ask, do you have a disability? People will often say no because they don't see their diabetes or their epilepsy or their dyslexia as a disability. When we broaden it to ask about... And or long term health conditions, or indeed explain what we mean in including, or not limited to poor mental health or long term health conditions, neurodiverse conditions, gives people more understanding and therefore they identify with it more than just disability, which is, let's face it's a very negative term. We don't seem to come up with a better one, but it's a very negative term.

Toby Mildon: So when it comes to recruitment, I know that you think it's time that employers should stop tweaking their processes and implementing short term lift initiatives, which we are on the same page there, that's the point that I make in my own book actually. But what do you think that employers should be doing instead? 

Helen Cooke: So I think we have to remember that to attract any talent to an organization, an organization has to be proactive and the same is true when it comes to those that have a disability. And as you say it's not good enough to implement initiatives. We are way beyond recruiting one or two people, tapping ourselves on the back and saying, "we've done a great job." The talent pool is so much bigger than that. And we need to ensure that the whole process is inclusive. And for me, no organization intentionally has barriers in their recruitment process, but have they actually looked at it objectively with a disability lens? Have they looked at how they attract? Have they looked at their marketing messages? Have they addressed the concerns that disabled applicants might have, particularly about disclosure and requesting support? On the application form, do they encourage people to request support and state any mitigating circumstances, unless you are operating the guaranteed interview scheme, we shouldn't be asking the question, "do you have a disability?"

Helen Cooke: Now that need blocks question. Screening, is the information the applicant providing picked up and then is... What about the disability confidence of the team? You know, we've talked about the fear factor that exists, but actually do the recruitment team... Are they confident to engage with disabled individuals? What about the hiring managers? So for me, it's about looking at every part of the process. And I think the other biggie for me is stop using the word reasonable adjustments.

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Helen Cooke: We ask people, it didn't work for the organization. Do require a reasonable adjustment? It's a very legal term. Now we don't know what it means as an employer. We think, well, what's legal? How far do we have to go? The individual's thinking, "well, what's reasonable, what can I ask for," particularly where money is concerned. And I think we need to start... Instead be talking about what is it that you need to do your best during the process? 

Toby Mildon: Yes.

Helen Cooke: What support do you need? What adjustments, any changes to the process? So for me, as I said, it's about taking a step back and looking at your process, and it's particularly about being proactive in the attraction. Because actually if we can get more people in to apply in the first place, more people into that pipe line, provided there's no barriers in the rest of the recruitment process. More people are going to filter through, into the organization.

Toby Mildon: Yeah. There's a few things that I really like what you've said that I want to pick up on. I think, first of all, there's the confidence of the recruiters. I've worked with recruitment teams where they go into this tail spin when a candidate puts on their application form that they need some adjustment. Like they might need a... There was one instance where a candidate said that they needed a sign language interpreter for the interview. The panic on the face of these recruiters. Like I wish I could have taken a picture. So I think there's this... Having this confidence and being prepared to be able to support candidates when they need help.

Toby Mildon: I agree with you. I think that using the term reasonable adjustment is really misleading. It's a legal term. And in the court of law there's... I don't know what seven ways of trying to determine whether something's reasonable or not, but I've been in situations where an employee has requested a reasonable adjustment and the hiring manager has said to me, "I just don't think this is reasonable." And I'm like, "it is. What they're asking for is going to cost the company 10 pounds. We're a multimillion billion pound company. This is is reasonable." And therefore, if you leave it up to line managers to determine what is reasonable or not, you really do run the risk of the organization running into hot water, getting into trouble.

Helen Cooke: I totally agree with you, Toby, and I think the other thing is the individual trying to work out what's reasonable. And it reminds me a little bit different... It reminds me years ago when I was working for Mars and I was getting a new wheelchair and I got a very lightweight chair, easy to get in the car, easy to maneuver. And through the access to work scheme, I'm able to ask my employer to contribute. And it would've been about a thousand pounds. Now I worked for Mars, the Mars family are the seventh richest family in the world, Toby...

Toby Mildon: Yeah. [chuckle]

Helen Cooke: And I didn't ask my manager for a thousand pounds because I didn't see anybody else doing that for a wheelchair. Nobody else needed it. Now, when he found out, he was actually quite cross with me, he was like, "what are you doing, Helen?" You know, as you said, this is a multimillion pound organization, but from the individual's point of view it's equally difficult to know what is reasonable. And is what I'm asking for okay? Rather than thinking actually, is it going help to help me to do my job? Is it gonna help me demonstrate my skills during the recruitment process? Is it gonna help me to be my best? 

Toby Mildon: Yeah, I can relate to that. I was in the same situation when I was working at the BBC. I needed to get a new electric wheelchair and they cost... I think my wheelchair was like 6,000 pounds and access to work is an amazing scheme and funded. I think the vast majority of that, but they did ask the BBC to make a contribution. And I was really anxious about asking the BBC because I was thinking, you know, the BBC's not spending a couple of grand on other staff. And I don't... I mean, that's just, I think that's just down to my own personal relationship with my disability, but it can be really quite tricky for people. And I've worked with people who need something that costs a 'tenner,' because they've just been diagnosed with dyslexia and they need like a ruler, you know and again, there's that anxiety about asking for that help.

Helen Cooke: The thing that's silly though, Toby is that we are both sitting here thinking no one else is asking for it, but actually they probably are, but the organization has been discrete. And you know, if you go back to, you know, when women go on maternity leave, you know, there's a cost to the business. There's a cost, not only to pay the person that's going on maternity leave, but there's a cost because of the cover that we bring in. But we don't say, we're not gonna recruit anymore women because we're beyond that. We've moved away from that. And there would be absolute uproar. So we need to get to the same point when it's with that... Cost associated in employing disabled people and retaining them in the organization, ensuring that they can do their best.

Toby Mildon: Yeah. That is a really, really good way of putting it. Actually, I haven't thought of it quite along those lines actually. So yeah. No, thank you for that. That's certainly opened... Quite helped me change my perspective. I mean, obviously we've talked a bit about recruitment and that's just part of the picture. Obviously, you know, we want to retain and develop anybody who comes to join an organization. So what do you think employers should be doing to maximize the chances of new hires, so that they can do their best work once they're hired and stay within the business? 

Helen Cooke: Good question because you know, actually bringing them in always the easy bit, isn't it? You support them through that recruitment process, but this is now about development and retention. And I think there's... This is about ensuring that we have an inclusive culture, ensuring that we are normalizing disability. Going back to what I said earlier, you know, they say that it's one in three of us is either disabled or closely related to someone. We need to ensure that people can be open about a disability if they want to, not everybody does but they can discuss their needs. For me, this is about good line manager responsibility. It's not HR, it's not DNI. In the majority of companies, law can be a bit different. The closest relationship you have with... Is it with your line manager and they need to be able to support everybody, including those that have a disability.

Helen Cooke: It's about ensuring people have the resources to perform in their role and to realize their potential and to be able to develop and to be able to achieve. And it's ensuring that people can access those easily. You know, people don't wanna battle. I don't want to have to battle to get my adjustment. I don't want to battle to get that software or the chair that's going to work for me or the mouse that's going to work for me. It needs to be easy. So it is about normalizing disability and normalizing the support that we provide people in the work place.

Toby Mildon: Thank you. Thanks for sharing that. I like your point about normalizing it and making it easy for people to get what they need in order to thrive it. I interviewed Christine Hempel who runs a company called Open Inclusion. So she focuses on inclusion within the customer space. So making customer journeys inclusive, and one of her kind of famous sayings is that we need to remove speed humps and roadblocks that prevent customers from completing a customer journey. And I often use that within the employment space as well. You know, employees are on a journey. Recruitment is a journey and there are often speed humps and roadblocks along the way that prevent somebody from getting to the end of that process. So one of the areas that you are particularly famous for is working in the student and graduate recruitment space. So what is your advice to companies to be more inclusive of the 15% of students within the UK that have a disability? 

Helen Cooke: Yeah, it's narrow... That we have have a lot of expertise and I think it's narrowed that I'm particularly passionate about. As I said, I was fortunate enough to have joined a large graduate recruit when I graduated and there's a lot of graduate recruitment at Mars, it's such an exciting time for people at the start of their career, but I think there's a couple of things. First of all, they've gotta recognize the talent pool. As you currently said, Toby 15% of students in UK universities have a disability. That's an awful lot of people that you are going to miss out on if you're not inclusive. And I think the other thing is, and this isn't just students, but we need to recognize the plus. And this is the whole premise of who my... Of what Myplus is about. Now I always say, I don't believe that I'm anymore special than anyone else because of my disability, but I believe it's given me something extra and those are the skills and the strengths and the abilities that I've had to develop to manage my disability in a world that's not always geared up for it. And it's not always kind and Toby, I'm not about to tell you some sob story about what a hard life I've had. 'Cause I haven't, and I suspect you haven't either, but we probably both had challenges.

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Helen Cooke: And as a chair user, for me that's often around access, the lack of drop curves, the lack of lifts, the lack of ramps, the lack of disabled toilets, and it can be about attitude. And as a result of that, I would say that I've developed, I'd say I'm very resilient. I'm very determined. I'm a great problem solver. I've probably... Well, I'd like to think I've probably got good communication skills and interpersonal skills because I've had to enlist others to help me when I can't. And other disabled people would've done exactly the same. So this isn't about Channel Four advertising for the Paralympics, saying that we're all superhuman. I don't believe that. But I do think that there are skills and strengths that we develop. And when you look at any job description, companies are asking for resilient, problem solving, people skills.

Toby Mildon: Yeah.

Helen Cooke: And it's about seeing past the disability or putting aside those negative judgments and assumptions that all too often we make, and instead flipping that and seeing the talent, you meet a 21-year-old, who's dealt with some kind of disability and there'll be a pretty remarkable individual who will be an asset to your organization.

Toby Mildon: Absolutely.

Helen Cooke: So for me, it's about recognizing the talent pool. I think, secondly, it's about engagement. It's about understanding this talent pool. I always say that disabled people as a whole look for jobs in the same way as their non-disabled counterparts, but perhaps we have another whole sway of questions and concerns going on, this fear of discrimination, the fear of the judgment, you know, knowing what support I can ask for. And we have to address those in all of our marketing, if we are going to be considered by that individual as an employer of choice, I guess that's about being proactive. And again, the third one goes back to what we've already talked about is we've gotta be inclusive. So if we're going to recognize the talent pool, if we're going invest in marketing to these guys, we then got to ensure that they can actually get throughout our recruitment process.

Toby Mildon: Yeah, absolutely. Brilliant. Before we wrap up this interview, the question that I ask everybody who comes on this podcast is what does inclusive growth mean to you? 

Helen Cooke: Yeah, you got me thinking on this, Toby, is this great, great phrase, inclusive growth. For me, I think it's about being genuinely inclusive as you progress and grow and develop, it's about including everyone. And it's about getting it right from the very beginning when inclusivity isn't an add on, it's not a nice to do. It's not something extra, it's about the inclusive, is what you do, you know, always and right from the beginning, like that's what inclusive growth means to me.

Toby Mildon: Brilliant Helen, thank you ever so much for joining me today before we head off. If the person listening to us right now wants to learn more about you and the work that you do, what should they do? 

Helen Cooke: Toby, first of all, thank you so much for having me, absolute pleasure to talk with you and I hope we'll do so again, you can find us through our website, which is myplusconsulting.com or theinfo@myplusconsulting.com. Or you can also find me on LinkedIn. I'm Helen Cooke, I'm Cooke with an E, and you can connect with me through LinkedIn as well.

Toby Mildon: Brilliant. Thank you, Helen. Thank you ever so much for joining me today. I've really enjoyed our conversation and thank you for tuning into this episode of the Inclusive Growth show with Helen and myself. Hopefully you've taken some nuggets of wisdom away that you can apply to your own organization. As Helen said, if you want to follow up with her specifically around disability inclusion, and if you're interested in employing disabled graduates as well, please do reach out to Helen through her website or connect with her on LinkedIn and chat with her there, until the next time. Thank you ever so much for tuning in and I look forward to seeing you on the next episode of the Inclusive Growth show take care and bye for now.

[music]

Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Inclusive Growth show, for further information and resources from Toby and his team, head on over to our website at milton.co.uk.